• Lles Nats

    What is amazing, and telling, is that most americans act like the gov is funded only by secular thinkers and atheists. There is no room in the current sanctioned “education” in our stellar public skools for the alternative. Yet…religious people of all types still fund the gov just as much as those who love the ape theory.

    Real freedom is a illusion.

  • Larry

    If you are a creationist, you are either ignorant or a liar. It is not science it is barely even religious belief. It represents a brain-dead dilution of both.

    Creationism is the denial of faith. The false notion that one’s religious beliefs can be proven to be correct using objectively credible evidence. Obviously such people will not accept objectively credible evidence that disproves their faith, so the argument is always dishonestly skewed. Once a religious believer proclaims the basis of their belief is faith, they have refuted Creationism. That is assuming creationism was an honestly held belief from the start. Which it isn’t.

    The first set of lies a Creationist uses are the ones where they pretend Creation science is an actual scientific alternative to evolution. Usually this argument bespeaks ignorance as to how scientific research is conducted or relies on false dichotomy arguments where any alleged flaw in Evolution supports creationism. The proponents usually fail to understand why scientists going through peer-reviewed research through reputable venues are more credible than their crackpot ravings or cutting and pasting.

    This is usually followed by some dishonest argument as to why we should allow all forms of irrational voodoo nonsense into science. Usually terms like naturalist materialism are bandied about along with ridiculous claims why the supernatural has to be taken seriously. Never mind that the reason science is credible is because it excludes useless answers like “God did it” and “its a miracle”.

    It all ends with and admission that the religious belief of the creationist is based on faith and faith alone. That they accept creationism because reality hurts their heads.

  • Atheist Max

    @Lles Nats,

    Yes – It would be very useful to have Jesus taught in school.


    The world is flat.
    Donkeys can talk
    Bats are a kind of bird
    Snakes can talk.

    Termites, Malaria, Small Pox and all Bacteria must have been saved by Noah.
    Noah’s family repopulated the world through extreme incest.
    Rainbows did not happen before the days of Noah.
    Eating Lobster is worthy of death.

    Wearing some fabrics is worthy of death

    The mustard seed is the smallest seed.
    People can live inside of fish without air for at least three days

    Women should feel ashamed if they are raped
    Men should cut off their wife’s hand
 if she touches another man’s penis.
    Non-jews are Dogs

    People should execute God’s enemies

    People should judge others harshly

    People should hate themselves
People should hate their parents

    People should kill their neighbor

    People should kill unruly children

    Many of these things were actually said by Jesus

    Jesus stated complete adherence to all of them.

  • Atheist Max

    @Lles Nats,

    “Real freedom is an illusion”

    No it isn’t.
    The sort of freedom you seem to want has always been available.
    It is called “the freedom to know nothing”.

  • Lles Nats

    The alternative, no god, means all that stuff is ok anyway. In a world of equal monkeys it just doesn’t matter. Monkey see…monkey take.

    Maybe athesim and your version of god end up in the same place?

  • Lles Nats

    I could turn to atheism and make it complete them….the freedom to know the socially acceptable answer coupled with the freedom to worship nothing. Sounds wonderful. Really inspiring.

  • Larry

    And thus illustrating my final point about Creationists. Their POV is informed by the idea that reality makes their head hurt. You accept a mythological story over science because it makes you feel better about the world around you.

    The alternative to Creationism is an honest discussion of science and admission that your religious beliefs require no evidence or proof.

    Creationism cheapens religion to the point of irrelevance. If you are capable of proving the existence of the Biblical God, an honest person would accept proof God does not exist as well. But that doesn’t happen. So why bother with the pretense?

  • Atheist Max

    @Lles Nats,

    So your argument is: “we can’t know anything”

    You are the proof.
    Christians will stop at nothing to force Jesus into existence
    and they will sacrifice every bit of their dignity to imagine they have succeeded.

  • Jonathan

    Lles, you wrote: “There is no room in the current sanctioned “education” in our stellar public skools for the alternative”

    This RNS posting had ONLY to do with evolution. As far as alternatives –> there aren’t any scientific ones. You know that. Evolution is compatible with religion, so long as you can get past a literal reading of the Bible. Evolution has nothing to do with origins of life or morality. It’s just biology. Don’t try to conflate it with the other accusations that you have against secularism.

  • An interesting note to the fact that Scopes was found guilty and fined $100 is that the fine exceeded the trial judge’s authority. This was the basis for the verdict to be overturned. Because of this technicality, there were no grounds for further appeal based on merit leaving the actual case moot.

  • How many years has it been since abortion was made legal – Roe v Wade?
    And we are still fighting that battle as well.

  • Fran

    I have always believed (59 years ) in the creation of all things by a mighty, creative and intelligent Designer, God, as opposed to evolution, although evolution was taught at the schools I attended.

    There is just too much proof that God exists and cares about us when you take a look at the heavens, the earth and all it contains (including us humans), the planets and stars in the universe and the birth of a baby child to convince me otherwise.

  • Lles Nats

    Every generation seems to face the same debate. Seems if one side or the other had am unquestionably superior argument that the debate would settle once and for all.

  • Lles Nats

    Good. It means you are normal….which makes me wonder what you are doing reading RNS.

  • Larry

    “Seems if one side or the other had am unquestionably superior argument that the debate would settle once and for all.”

    Assuming human beings always act in a rational manner and accept well thought out arguments all the time. Never happens.

  • ronald

    I have come around a bit on the question of evolution. I now think it is possible that some “people” such as athiests and people with non-Biblical sex lives did evolve from dumb apes (or maybe they DEvolved, lol!).

    Good Christians like myself, however, definately did NOT! We were made by God in His image. A monkey might be your uncle, but he ain’t mine!

  • Kay

    Ah yes, and the conversation devolves into personal attacks. Classy.

  • Doc Anthony

    Gotta admit Lles Nats, that’s a good comeback you wrote. I may have to steal it from you.

  • Atheist Max


    “It’s called faith because it’s not knowledge” – Christopher Hitchens

  • Larry

    @ Fran

    What you are telling me is that personally you prefer really poor religious dogma over objective fact. That you have no understanding or appreciation for faith.

    Intelligent design( aka creationist pseudoscience) is terrible even from a religious point of view. It depends on so much misrepresentations of facts, appeals to emotions and flat out fabrications that it would be a poor way to serve the Lord. God shouldn’t need to people to lie or ignore the world around them.

    Plus you deny the honest basis of your own belief. You don’t have real proof of God. You have a warm feeling that gives you faith in his existence. Acknowledging that god even can be proven opens te door for disproof as well. We both know no amount of evidence or proof will let you do that.

  • Doc Anthony

    In other words, Larry is scared stiff of anything that offers either scientific or religious challenges to his beloved cherished religions of evolution and atheism.

    But those challenges are increasing all the time, aren’t they? And more scientists are refusing to just keep quiet and pretend that Darwinism doesn’t have any problems, blankspots or weaknesses.

    So good luck to you, Mr. Larry! You may just need it these days!

  • TSD


    One word empathy. Human beings in many cultures across the world got along, worked together and thrived without the Judeo-Christian God telling them how to live.

    I don’t want to steal because I don’t want to be stolen from. I don’t want to kill because I don’t want to be killed. It’s pretty simple.

    If you don’t feel that way, and threat of hell is the only thing keeping you from exploding into a murderous rape fest(although depending on the situation, the bible may say that is ok), I suggest you seek professional help.

    The bible and christianity enforce a moral code that justifies hurting others and demonizes behaviors that don’t hurt anybody.

  • Lles Nats

    Lets say a murderous rapefest sounds enjoyable to me. Given that I’ve beem told by my society there is no god, so no absolute. There is only the rules most generally accepted by the other monkeys.

    But I’m a smart one. I realize that each of us were plopped down on this earth with equal right to it and to our own actions. The other monkeys, I notice, have a sorta mental wall up…believeing that the rules they live by are right and correct. As an equal monkey to thosethat say they know their rules are absolutely correct, I say they have no right, by birth or otherwise, to tell me right from wrong. What they say is right I say is wrong because it restricts the excitement I will have in my life.

    And lets face it. There is nothing after death, so excitement now is all you are going to get. Stupid rule following monkeys.

    Prove to me I should do as you tell me to. Death is a given in anyway, so why not rampage? It cannot be wrong, as you are just a monkey, like me, and I say your “wrong” is my “right”.

  • Lles Nats

    There are only two alteenatives regarding what you worship in your life. God or man.

    If you do not worship god, by default, you worship man and vice versa.

  • Lles Nats

    Larry is jewish.

  • Lles Nats

    As if its a technique shunned by those classy liberals. Haha.

  • TSD

    I have yet to see a credible scientific alternative to evolution as the origin of species.

    If you can actually provide evidence that evolution is false i will change my mind. That’s how science works.

    Even then, if evolution was proven false tomorrow, that doesn’t “prove” creationism, there would still be no evidence for creationism. Lack of an explanation = God did it. Is simply lazy and we have a profound amount of examples in history of natural processes being explained that everyone had chaulked up to “God did it”.

    I bought a house last summer, right as I moved in one of the bathrooms the door appeared to be locking on its own…. I would leave come back later go to open the door, and it’s locked.

    There was no evident explanation. When I discussed this with friends of mine that are not skeptics, of course resorted to “your place might be haunted”, “I bet something happened in that bathroom, you need to investigate the history of the house”. Sigh…. just because the solution isn’t staring us in the face, they resort to the “It must be the supernatural if you have no explanation”.

    The explanation was quite natural and I discovered it on accident when taking a dump in my haunted bathroom.

  • TSD

    “There is just too much proof that God exists and cares about us when you take a look at the heavens, the earth and all it contains (including us humans), the planets and stars in the universe and the birth of a baby child to convince me otherwise.”

    murder, war, natural disasters, children born with disabilities/deformities, miscarriages, diseases that take our loved ones all too soon, famine, car accidents, plane crashes, I could continue going on, let me know when I get to the part where God cares about us. If there were a God and he actually cared about us, he wouldn’t make us endure such things. Would you if you could protect your child from all of it?

  • TSD

    I have always loved the concept of being created in God’s image.

    What does God need with a nose? Does he breath, and need to filter debris from the air? I mean before “creation” there was no air I imagine. What does he need with a mouth and teeth? Does he eat? Why does he need eyes? Hair? Penis AND a vagina I guess? a butthole? really why does God need a butthole does he poo?

    We require this things for natural processes. They serve no purpose to an all powerful deity. Therefore God having any of these things makes no sense, thus makes the concept of us being created in his image dubious.

  • TSD

    forgot to add my personal curse, male pattern baldness! Damn me and joining the military, wasted all my last years of good head hair shaving it. God if I wake up tomorrow with luxurious locks I will believe in you!

  • Frank

    The only reason anyone has any sense of right or wrong is because God created us with an internal moral compass. Without God there is no morality.

  • TSD

    Why do you keep saying we are monkeys?

    Anyway, you didn’t address any of my points.

    1. Plenty of civilizations developed and thrived developing ethics and morality without the Judeo-Christian God. By your own belief that would be no God.

    2. My primary point is empathy. I can empathize with other human beings, which is why I have no desire to do these things. Many sociopaths lack this ability, and that is a mental illness.

    You were correct about one thing, there is no absolute, our ethics and morality will evolve and change. Not even morality in your Gods religion is absolute. I mean unless you think its still okay to stone your daughter to death for not being a virgin on her wedding night. Most christians I know would not condone that behavior anymore.

    All you have done is managed to make me do question your character as a human being. I am glad to know you require a divine parent figure to keep you from being a criminal, I don’t because I am actually a decent person.

  • TSD

    So Frank, then explain mental disorders to me. It has been proven sociopaths lack the ability to empathize with their victims.

    So god likes to throw a few people without a moral compass into the pot to mix things up a little bit?

    Or maybe he likes to give everyone a different moral compass?

    Furthermore your own comment is contrary to Lles. He implies lack of belief in God leads to murder rape etc. etc. you however would believe a non-believer can be a moral being, because regardless of belief we come with a moral meter pre-installed.

    I disagree with you simply because our empathy is not equal to morality.

  • Larry

    “All you have done is managed to make me do question your character as a human being. I am glad to know you require a divine parent figure to keep you from being a criminal, I don’t because I am actually a decent person.”

    TSD, that is the best response ever to such an inane overused argument.

    I guess Frank and Lles really are just dangerous psychopaths on a divine leash. At least by their own admission.

  • Larry

    Doc, you don’t have any scientific or religious challenges to give.

    Creationism isn’t science. Its proponents are even scared to call it that when given an open objective forum to display the truth of their assertions. It always comes down to a bunch of delusional unqualified crackpots spouting off on a subject they have no real knowledge of. In other words, the first level of dishonesty I mentioned.

    As for religious challenges, creationism is an open admission your belief has to be is so shaky, so weak willed and lacking in any kind of strength that you have to pretend faith is not necessary. It is lying in order to bolster the image of your religious belief. A creationist has to lie to himself and others in order to keep up the pretense that their religious belief is convincing to others. That people must be compelled to accept it as true by using phony evidence and spurious arguments.

    Doc as a creationist, I can say without any question that you are a liar.

  • Larry

    Atheist. But its nice to know ad hominem attacks are coming.

  • Larry

    No there are plenty of alternatives. One God or many? Who are the people who speak for the divine? Which one do you feel like taking seriously?

    Plenty of options also in how to deal with them. You can chose to worship a divine being, let such things run your life, treat it as a custom or tradition, or not to worship anything at all. One does not worship man when one rejects religion. One rejects the act of worship as well.

  • Doc Anthony

    It’s for your own good, Larry. You drunk the Atheist Kool-Aid; you done pizened yourself to a fare-thee-well with all that skepticism.

    So you need an antidote. WE are your antidote, baby !!!!!!!

  • Larry

    You are the antidote to sane discussion. A little dose of Doc’s wild ramblings goes a long way.

    I can’t help it if your religious belief is so weak that you have to lie to others in order to give it meaning.

    Even Pope John Paul II thought you were being silly.
    That is about 1.2 billion Christians who think you are dead wrong.

  • Doc Anthony

    To show how utterly pitiful your current religion of evolution is, let me remind you that YOU posted a link to Pope John Paul II’s alleged “acceptance” of evolution, even though the Pope CLEARLY SAID that there is an important and real inner part of every human, that evolution or any materialistic hypothesis CANNOT account for at all. Period. No exceptions. Only God could create that part of a human, he said.

    So just that quickly, you have posted a link to a Christian who indirectly pointed out that the theory of evolution actually DOES NOT account for the existence of humans, and that the supernatural actions of a supernatural God is actually a REQUIRED EXPLANATION at one point of the biological process, to explain the existence of humans.

    See the mess you got yourself into, Atheist? Your monkey business has backfired!

  • Doc Anthony

    Hey, but YOU have survived all this time, haven’t you? So what’s going on here? You can’t even credit God for protecting YOUR OWN soggy sorry soul, is that it??

    You think YOU are the reason that you haven’t yet died in a car crash or a fatal disease or a simple military flight that went awry? You think YOU’RE the one keeping a fatal aneurysm away from your thankless ingrate low-carb brain??

    Undeserved good food on your dirty table, undeserved good clothes on your unwashed back, undeserved good money in your grimy pockets. So when will YOU start giving Credit where it’s due, you rot-gut atheist ??

  • Atheist Max


    And since God doesn’t believe in evolution…

    How did he develop his senses before creating the world to use them in?
    And does he share with us a longing for a parent also; The evolved need for parental nurturing of the sort we humans are born with?

    Does he wake up with a woody?

  • Atheist Max

    @Doc Anthony,

    “You can’t even credit God for protecting YOUR OWN soggy sorry soul, is that it?…you rot-gut atheist.”


    A 12 year old girl died today of cancer.
    Are you going to give credit where it is due?

    Do you stop at traffic lights, Doc?
    Or do you just plow right on through the red light knowing that God will protect you today without ever using any brakes?

    Doc, You don’t believe in God at all – and you are freaking out at the thought. So you repress Atheists. It makes you feel better because the Atheist within you KNOWS God is BS and you MUST shut down that Atheist within you.

    The Atheist within is like a whack-a-mole.
    But someday, if you ever become human, your inner atheist will emerge free from this cage of religion.

  • Larry

    You did not read the encyclical closely, honestly or seriously. Not even your own semi-quote.

    JPII was saying the Bible cannot contradict what is observed in nature as science and science does not touch upon matters of the soul/spiritual. Separate magisteria. Both of these premises contradict creationism.

    John Paul II wasn’t saying the Bible really accounts for the origins of humans or even contradicts what we know scientifically to be true with Evolution. He says it talks about the spiritual and metaphysical (not supernatural, there is a difference) Subjects never broached by science nor ever will be.

    He pointed out the existence of God is required for the existence of souls and the spirit. God may have created the earth and all that existed, but Biblical literalism is unnecessary. Scientific study and theories such as evolution are truth in of themselves. They lead to greater inquiry on God’s creation. The Bible’s text cannot displace the objective truth of what we observe in nature.

    The fact that Catholic Schools all teach evolution is a perfect example of how stupid your argument is. You are misrepresenting the pontiff and the beliefs of the majority of Christians.

    Catechism section 283 specifically refutes creationism,

    “The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers”

    Are you done lying for the Lord?

  • Bobo Zaius, PhD

    Hey don’t besmirch good godly simians with being associated with damn filthy humans. The Lawgiver set simians of all types above man as the more perfect being. From Chimpan-a to Chimpanzee. We have one law that sets us above all others. “Ape shall not kill ape”

    Our sacred scrolls foretell what kind of nasty work you humans are:

    “Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil’s pawn. Alone among God’s primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother’s land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death.”

  • alan c

    Discussion of God is fine, just not in science class. Evolution is extremely well-supported by the facts.

  • Doc Anthony

    If human beings “always acted in a rational manner and accept well thought out arguments”, the very first casualty would be the religion of Atheism.

    TOTAL extinction, automatically!!!

  • Doc Anthony

    Yes, I’m going to give credit where it’s due, Max.

    Atheism didn’t bring that 12-year-old girl into the world for some purpose, and Atheism didn’t keep that girl alive for 12 years.

    And if any member of that bereaved family has even the slightest dollop of hope to sustain them in their situation, Atheism absolutely DID NOT give that dollop to them.

    God did it. God helps people in hard situations. Atheism doesn’t help anybody at all. Atheism is beyond worthless. Atheism is dog-poo on steroids. It’s time for an upgrade, Max.

  • @DOC,

    “Atheism didn’t bring that 12-year-old girl into the world for some purpose”
    What ‘purpose’ did your God supposedly have? Did he kill her so people like you could use her death to celebrate god’s silence on the matter?

    “And Atheism didn’t keep that girl alive for 12 years.”
    Prove it.

    “And if any member of that bereaved family has even the slightest dollop of hope to sustain them in their situation, Atheism absolutely DID NOT give that dollop to them.”
    Horrible answer! Wishful thinking is disgusting in the face of reality! Useless nonsense alleviates no pain!
    ATHEIST DOCTORS DID THE HEAVY LIFTING TO TRY TO SAVE HER while fool’s prayers landed in deaf heaven.
    AND You have it backwards. She was lucky to live at all. As are you.
    There is no purpose to this life whether you wish it or not!

    “God did it.”
    Prove it!

    “God helps people in hard situations.”
    No HE DOESN’T ! People help people. And no gods come to their aid. Prove your ridiculous claims.

    “Atheism doesn’t help anybody at all.”
    That is total BS. It saves more lives than religion by far!

    “Atheism is beyond worthless.”
    Tell that to ATHEIST Paul Newman who raised $370 million dollars for charity. Or ATHEIST Bill Gates who travels the world saving millions of people’s lives while your God takes a big dump on 17 million starving children every year! None of their money went to voodoo doctors!

    “Atheism is dog-poo on steroids.”
    You are lucky to live under an
    And still the only godless Constitution in the world. I would give my life to save the Constitution no question about it. Jesus is worthless nonsense.

    “It’s time for an upgrade, Max.”

    ‘Rot-gut’ ATHEISTS like Paul Newman

    Good luck being anything more than a lizard following Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart and Sarah Palin.

  • Dave

    What kills me is that creationists base their beliefs on a literal reading of Genesis, but they aren’t even consistent about that. Right in the first chapter, the same chapter that outlines the 7-day creation, you have the sky described as a solid firmament, and the sun and moon are lights set in the aforementioned solid sky. Biblical cosmology only makes sense when you realize that it assumes a flat earth, with the sky as a solid dome over the top of it, no more than a few miles up.

    Despite this, every creationist I’ve ever talked to accepts the heliocentric model of the solar system. They insist we must read the Bible literally, but they don’t even get out of the first chapter of Genesis before they have to start making excuses for why THIS passage is clearly a metaphor.

    Evolution is a theory just as well established as heliocentrism. Neither is compatible with a literal reading of the Bible. So why is the latter acceptable to creationists and the former is not? I just don’t get it.

  • Larry

    Don’t even get me started about Noah’s Ark and the fact that a family of goatherds could produce a ship bigger and in less time than the best shipwright teams of the Mediterranean 1000 years later. Or how the inability to remove herbivore effluence would have killed the crew and most of the animals within a week from super instant cholera.

  • Larry

    Still smarting from the catechism post. I can’t help it if I demonstrated that Creationism is considered brain dead even by Christian religious standards. 🙂

  • Larry

    ‘Rot-gut’ ATHEISTS like Paul Newman

    The movie the Silver Chalice would be evidence to the contrary. 🙂

    “Good luck being anything more than a lizard following Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart and Sarah Palin.”

    That is grossly unfair to reptiles.

  • Fran

    Physical universe: If you found a precision timepiece, would you conclude that it was formed by chance blowing together of some dust? Obviously, someone with intelligence made it. There is an even more significant “clock.” The planets in our solar system, and the stars in the universe, move at a rate that is more precise than most clocks made by man. The galaxy in which our solar system is located includes over 100 billion stars, and astronomers estimate there are 100 billion of such galaxies in the universe. If a clock is evidence of intelligent design, how much more so is the far more vast and complicated universe! As Psalms 19:1 brings out, “The heavens are declaring the glory of God; and the work of his hands the expanse is telling.”

    Planet earth: When crossing a barren desert, if you came to a beautiful house, well-equipped in every way, and stocked with food, would you believe it got there by some chance explosion? No, you would realize someone with considerable wisdom built it. Scientists have not yet found life on any of the planets of our solar system except earth; available evidence indicates the others are barren. This planet is, as the book, “The Earth”, says, “the wonder of the universe, a unique sphere” (New York, 1963, Arthur Beiser, p. 10). It is at just the right distance from the sun for human life, and moves at the right speed to be held in orbit. The atmosphere is made up of just the right proportion of gases to sustain life. Light from the sun, carbon dioxide from the air, and water and minerals from fertile soil combine to produce the food we eat. Did it all come about from some uncontrolled explosion in space? Science News admits: “It seems as if such particular and precise conditions could hardly have arisen at random.” (August 24 and 31, 1974, p. 124). The Bible’s conclusion is reasonable when it states: “Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God .” Hebrews 3:4.

    Human brain: Modern computers are a product of man’s intensive research and careful engineering. They did not “just happen.” What about the human brain? Unlike the brain of any animal, the brain of a human infant triples its size during its first year. How it functions is still largely a mystery to scientists. In humans, there is a built-in capability to learn complex languages, to appreciate beauty, to compose music, to contemplate the origin and meaning of life. Brain surgeon Robert White said: “I am left with no choice but to acknowledge the existence of a Superior Intellect, responsible for the design and development of the incredible brain-mind relationship–something far beyond man’s capacity to understand.” (The Reader’s Digest, September 1978, p. 99). The development of this marvel begins from a tiny fertilized cell in the womb. Just as the Bible writer, David, said to God: “I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful, as my soul is very well aware.” Psalm 139:14.

    So, yes, in this modern, scientific world, it is reasonable to believe in creation!!

  • Fran

    Larry, please see my post further up about the physical universe, the planet earth and the human brain! Thanks!

  • @Larry,

    You are correct again. 🙂
    ‘The Silver Chalice’ is evidence
    even perfect Atheists like Paul Newman
    can’t do some things right.

    ‘The Silver Chalice’ is an awful movie
    of an awful bible story.

    But you’ve got me thinking again…
    speaking of Atheists who gave their talent to Biblical material
    many have done better:

    THE ATHEIST Charles Schultz (Peanuts)
    delivered a wonderful version of Christmas in “A Charlie Brown Christmas” which I love and couldn’t do without.

    THE ATHEIST Irving Berlin had the biggest Christmas hit in history with “White Christmas” – still one of the most lovely Christmas songs ever written.

    Even if Charles Dickens denies it. The ghost explicitly says to Scrooge, “beware these two children of humanity: ignorance and want.” That is a strong anti-religious, pro-humanitarian message in a so-called work of ‘Christian’ literature.

    The Villain in Frank Capra’s, “IT’S A WONDERFUL LIFE”
    is Henry F. Potter and he is clearly a Christian – but pure evil, like the Koch brothers. Capra could not have dreamed that American High Finance of the sort Potter represented would destroy his beloved Main Street (as it has) under the Christian banner!
    America has become more like Pottersville with every pro-Christian policy passed in the last half century. Students of history would understand why Capra’s feel-good Christianity is so naive.
    Of course, Clarence the Angel is the nicest Christian in any ‘religious’ movie not because he is Christian but because he is 100% humanitarian. He even shrugs off God’s wishes several times in the movie – and it gets a laugh.
    Frank Capra would be horrified to know Atheists could find such joy and validation in his movie. And equally horrified that in these ensuing decades Christianity and Politics has colluded to lead America directly into the George Bailey nightmare of Pottersville.

    – Atheist Max

  • Ed

    ATHEIST MAX, you just blew my mind. The Ghost of Christmas present is an atheist??? If anyone says you are not original I will gladly point out that you are absolutely different from any other atheist I’ve read.
    As for whether you are correct…I’ll have to think about that one.
    very cool.

  • Ed

    That is definitely true, Lles.

  • Ed

    larry, you mentioned, ‘You don’t have real proof of God’.;.. yup. And I think you are right and I don’t think anyone is likely to find it.

  • Atheist Max


    How could I leave out THE ATHEIST Dr. Seuss?
    “How the Grinch Stole Christmas” is another great ‘religious’ masterpiece by an Atheist.

    I think the lesson is that people love to be happy
    and they love to help other people get happy. This is not owned by religion – if it were, Atheists would not be able to understand it.
    And what better time of year to be a decent, caring, loving HUMANITARIAN than the darkest days of winter?

  • Larry


    “How could I leave out THE ATHEIST Dr. Seuss?”

    I was catching up to my Tivo queue when you posted. 🙂

  • Larry

    You are using well worn and hackneyed arguments which were ridiculous in the 19th Century let alone the 21st.

    There is no evidence of the supernatural universe. By its nature no evidence could exist, being beyond the natural observable, objectively credible.

    You rely on an argument which was discredited 100 years before it was given in the form you used. The telelogical (“the watchmaker”) argument. Living things do not function like machines. They are far messier, full of redundancies, deficiencies, always on the verge of falling apart and require constant maintenance. The analogy was always poor and ignorant. It also misses the point even a 5 year old gets. If everything is created, who created God?

    You make an appeal to incredulity and sign of lack of scope in your perception, but not evidence of anything. Plus you fail to take into account the sheer enormity of the numbers involved in the probabilities of our existence. In a universe so large, even what you consider unlikely or infinitesimal in chances are likely with such a long period of time. A one in a million chance when one is acting over a trillion times means at least once is likely.

    You are also ignorant as to what evolution really means. Things are not random or instant, but incremental. The earth and the human brain were the results of millions of years of actions building upon actions. Modern computers cannot replicate the messiness of human thought. Therefore claiming the brain is evidence of a created manufactured thing falls flat.

    Your whole POV depends on deliberately ignoring a century of accumulated knowledge on the subject. You also have to lie about the nature of your belief. Fran, you believe in God because you have faith. If you were basing it on objective evidence, you would no longer believe. The evidence simply does not exist. You would be receptive to be convinced away from your religious belief. You didn’t appeal to evidence and observation, you appealed to perceptions and emotions.

  • Larry

    And yet Creationism, Biblical literal interpretations of Genesis, the attack of Evolution, is expressly rejected by the majority of Christians. Creation being only in the most metaphoric sense being the most reasonable belief.

  • Fran

    Yes, Larry, I put my faith and trust in a loving, compassionate, perfect, righteous, just, powerful, forgiving and merciful Almighty God instead of sinful, imperfect man/scientists.

    Are your scientists loving and powerful enough to put an end to all sicknesses, diseases, old age, death, hate, prejudice, all wicked ones/terrorists, wars, pollution, starvation, natural disasters, and any other remaining problems on earth? If so, how will they accomplish that?

    And can scientists bring back to life those we have lost to death, such as those, through no fault of their own, who met that fate in the Malasia flight that was taken down by man?

    Go ahead and put your trust in man to accomplish all these things, but my trust and faith will remain with God who has both the love and power to do so.

    As Revelation 21:4 brings out, God will wipe out every tear from their (mankind) eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning, nor outcry no pain be any more. The former things will have passed away.

    And Acts 24:15 brings out that there is going to be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous (those who have not be given the opportunity to learn about God will be able to do so). Also see John 5:28,29. Those who lost their lives in that plane have the hope of being reunited with family and friends on earth. 😀

    Man can make many promises that are bound to fail (look at our politicians/governments), but God never lies (Titus 1:2) and what he promises above will come true.

  • @Fran,

    You said,
    “Are your scientists loving and powerful enough to put an end to all sicknesses, diseases, old age, death, hate, prejudice, all wicked ones/terrorists, wars, pollution, starvation, natural disasters, and any other remaining problems on earth?”

    Well, at least they are TRYING!
    Prayers don’t work and if we could save Tennessee and Louisiana from Creationist garbage maybe a few scientists may grow up to solve some problems.

    Science is responsible for almost every benefit in your life!
    I can’t fathom how medicine got such a bad reputation – the holy ghost sure aint curing anything!!!

  • @Fran,

    You are really irresponsible.

    When the day comes that you need an ambulance, you will want them to take you to the Hospital.


  • Larry, another silly oversight on my part.

    Max Von Sydow’s great performance as Jesus
    in “The Greatest Story Ever Told”
    AND later his amazing work as Father Merrin in “The Exorcist.”

    He’s another Atheist.

    Even at 85 he occasionally rails against the foolishness of religion.
    But he believes the Jesus stories are ‘fun’ if ridiculous.

  • Larry

    So Fran, you have refuted creationism. Your belief is based on faith. Faith borne of a world you want to be, as opposed to what it actually is. All notions that your belief is credible and objective enough to stand on its own and evidence is merely wishful thinking.

    The idiocy of creationism is that you have to reject science, observation, and the world around you in order to support what amounts to an acknowledged lie. All simply because you are unwilling to accept metaphor or deal with the clear limits of biblical text.

    By declaring your faith, you refuted creationism. You don’t believe in the alleged evidence or logic of creationist arguments. It’s merely a means to an end to convince people to share your belief without the requisite faith.