• Are you SURE we can’t go with each other to see this in December, because I’m SURE it’ll be playing somewhere in San Francisco. Imagine: live tweets, little bits of mouth puke, tears shed for the Mike Seaver of our youth …together. Now that’s the real reason for the season. (Appreciate your words, always).

  • Why does it matter so much to Kirk Cameron that everyone
    believe exactly like him?

    I don’t mind Christians – I just wish the wall of separation
    of Church and State was a good deal sturdier.

  • Fran

    The date of birth of Jesus, the son of God, on earth is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible, nor are any other birth dates of other faithful servants of God shown there.

    The only birthdays mentioned in the Bible were of people who were NOT servants of God, namely the Pharoah (Genesis 40:20-22) and King Herod, when John the Baptist was beheaded (Matthew 14:6-10).

    If you Google the “origins of Christmas”, it is obvious that it is a pagan holiday with no Christian basis to observe.

    The only day we should commemorate on a yearly basis is the memorial of Jesus’ death or Lord’s evening meal, the start of a new covenant for a kingdom, God’s kingdom or heavenly government, and not Jesus’ resurrection.

    The Memorial should be observed every year on Nisan 14, according to the Jewish calendar, when it was observed by Jesus and his disciples before his death. As Jesus said, “keep doing this in remembrance of me.” (Luke 22:19)

  • Billysees

    @ Atheist Max

    “I don’t mind Christians – I just wish the wall of separation of Church and State was a good deal sturdier.”

    One of your best comments to date.

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  • Georgia

    War on Christmas, War on the Right to Bear Arms, War on Christianity, etc. Etc. Ad nauseam.
    These are nothing but persecution theories put out by the religious and political extremists in this country to rally the base and ensure $$$$$ rolling into the coffers of the already-rich organized religious organizations and special interest groups. Did you know, for instance, that the holier-than-thou Duggars (net worth $3.5 million) are able to dodge property taxes on their 7,000 sq ft house because they use one of the rooms as a church? Pretty darn impressive persecution of Christianity, dontcha know…..)

  • JM

    It is written in the early church writings that Jesus specifically commanded the apostles and disciples to commemorate His Last Supper on every first day of the week and not just on one day of each year. This weekly Sunday/First day practice is also mentioned in Scripture; however, everyone who lived in that time period knew that they were meeting every Sunday to worship the Lord and to partake of the gifts of the altar and also to take up collections for the needs of their local Christian community and for other Christian communities. Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Hebrews 10:25-27

  • gilhcan

    Knowledgeable people, even atheists, won’t be “frustrated” or feel their knowledge about Christmas is “deflated” by Kirk Cameron’s continuing distortion of the facts. However, some might pity his lack of knowledge that leads him to think, talk, write, and make movies with distortions as he does.

    First of all, there is no solid evidence that Jesus, as characterized in the New Testament, ever existed. The creation of the figure of Jesus and its use as a model of good and honest living is one thing, part of the very tradition of myth and religion. At the same time remember that religion has a very sad history of evil as well as any good intended and practiced by some.

    All kinds of material elements were taken on through Christian history as symbols of their beliefs and rituals, things like water, bread, wind, oil, religious vestments or academic robes, even altars and pulpits. Candle light is still maintained long after the invention of electricity as a prevalent religious symbol–even though most people in churches where candle light is used could not explain its symbolic meaning.

    For Cameron’s information, December 25th was chosen centuries after the beginning of Christianity as the day on which to celebrate the birth of the uncertain Jesus because, in addition to not being sure he existed, there was no knowledge of his actual birth date. The queen of England celebrates her birthday in June simply because her actual birthday is in earlier, often inclement weather. No big deal.

    December 25th was also chosen in a Christian attempt to exploit the very popular celebration of the “pagan” Winter Solstice. None of the trifles that Cameron mentions have anything intrinsic to do with the celebration of the birth of Jesus. It was a matter of coincidence. The early Christians joined the pagan winter solstice, and all kinds of celebrations and symbols of the two were conflated after that. St. Nicholas is now Jolly Old St. Nick, or Santa Claus. “Santa” means saint!

    The so-called Christmas tree was initiated for use by Martin Luther, the leader of the reformation of Christianity, as a symbol of the eternal life that was a vital belief of Christians by his time, even though it is often believed figuratively rather than literally by many Christians now. Trees were lighted with wax candles for centuries. Now we light them electrically–sometimes with bulbs that resemble was candles. “Ever green” trees and bushes are still very popular as plantings outside homes simply because, in wintry climates, they display life year round.

    Kirk Cameron, like so many on the “Christian right” or at any other position along the continuum of Christianity, is dead wrong in his claim that “Christianity…is the ideology that built this country.” This nation was build only on the ideology of democracy, not any religion.

    The Framers of our Constitution were history scholars. They knew the inhumane results of blending religion with government was just as harmful as blending royalty with government–if we wanted it to be democratic, “by…for…and of the people.” The Framers prepared for that destructive possibility by declaring the separation of church and state as the very first clause of the Bill of Rights, the first Ten Amendments to their original Constitution.

    That vital right protects the religious freedom of all individuals against any invasion by the state. Conversely, it protects the state against any invasion by religion from individuals or churches. Because religious beliefs vary so widely ands deeply, they are a very dangerous blend. Also conversely, freedom of religion is a right that means freedom from religion.

    Season’s Greetings and Happy Holidays, Kirk Cameron. Celebrate those holidays any way you wish–or don’t celebrate them at all. At the same time, do not attempt to inflict your religious beliefs or your religious celebrations on others. There is a mutuality involved. We must all practice minding our own religious affairs.

  • Great God Pan

    Before he devotes any more of his valuable time and energy to “saving Christmas,” someone ought to inform poor Kirk that the only people who have ever banned Christmas have been…Christians.

    Christmas was in fact considered an unseemly excuse for indulging in gluttony and drunkenness until relatively modern times, when it was rebranded as a time for “peace on Earth and good will toward men.” It was actually Easter that was regarded as the most important day in the Christian calendar, which of course makes more sense. For some reason, though, I rarely hear Christians complain about the commercialization of Easter.

  • Larry

    Christian Fundamentalists need to learn the difference between not being obnoxious dillholes in public and persecution.

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  • Deacon John M. Bresnahan

    I find it a bit ludicrous to describe Christians who object to the censoring out of “Christmas” in our supposedly diversity respecting culture as the ones being “pushy.” A number of articles I have read and store clerks I have talked with affirm that many clerks have been ordered not to use the word “Christmas” while waiting on customers. Yet a poll last year concluded 90% of Americans celebrate Christmas even though Christians are only 70-80% of the population.
    Now why would the bosses and big corporations want to get away from the word “Christmas”???? and only use “Season’s Greetings” “Happy Holidays.”????
    How about greed and materialism. Maybe someday people hearing the word “Christmas” will begin to remember that Christmas is about a poor babe in the manger and how “Christmas” has become an orgy of extravagant spending on one’s self. Maybe Christians will start sending money to poverty racked areas like Sudan or Somalia—oops –one less laptop sold.

  • Re: “Why does it matter so much to Kirk Cameron that everyone believe exactly like him?”

    This question has immense importance. Why, indeed, do Christians get their knickers in knots whenever they’re faced with someone who doesn’t believe as they do? They get agitated about this, whether it’s other sorts of Christians (e.g. “heretics”) they have to deal with, or non-Christians (e.g. Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc.), or non-believers (e.g. atheists, agnostics). A lot of Christians just can’t seem to handle any disagreement with any of their beliefs. It’s not just Kirk Cameron and it’s not even just evangelical Protestants of his ilk. Too many Christians seem prone to this sanctimonious outrage over the very existence of any and all disagreement.

    The answer to this question is simple, yet powerful. It’s because they believe things they have no way to be certain of, through objective means. They can only feel certain of their beliefs when surrounded by others who believe the same things. In other words, they’re angling for communal reinforcement (http://www.skepdic.com/communalreinforcement.html). That there are people who don’t believe as they do, is a constant reminder that their beliefs aren’t as certain as they’d like them to be, this constant insecurity triggers anxiety that they just can’t handle. This in turn causes them to lash out irrationally … including making up lies about other people in order to make themselves feel better.

    Couple this with the fact that Christianity is a martyr’s religion which encourages its followers to feel persecuted for believing in it, and you have a recipe for paranoid delusions (such as Kirk’s pronouncement that atheists are wiping out his precious holiday and erasing Jesus from the planet).

    So when you get right down to it, Christians like Kirk just can’t help themselves. They’re victims of the psychopathology of their own religion. That, of course, is not a valid or rational excuse for him to make things up about people and claim to be “persecuted” when clearly he’s not. But it does explain Kirk’s juvenile irrationality. It’s long past time Christians did something about this … but they won’t. It’s far too easy for them to blame perceived (if not delusional) slights against them on other people (particularly those insolent atheist types), than it is to admit their own religion has profound flaws that need to be repaired.

  • @Deacon,

    Every culture for more than 6000 years has had winter celebration around the Solstice.

    American Christmas most resembles the SATURNALIA of ancient times – the philosophy of the ghost of Christmas Present from Dickens’ “A Christmas Carol.”

    The Ghost of Christmas Present is the cheerful one – the big ghost with flowing robes and crown who clearly enjoys good food and wine, enjoys good company and good cheer and carries a great wisdom.

    This Ghost is also ATHEIST in a sense. He warns Scrooge of the two evil ‘children of humanity’ and they are “Ignorance” and “Want”. To be against ignorance is to embrace learning wherever it leads and this is an argument Freethinkers and Scientists have made for centuries. To be against ‘want’ is to fight poverty – and no development of the modern age has done more to fight poverty than the emancipation of women (a thoroughly un-Christian concept).

    Though it may not have been Dickens’ intention – THE GHOST OF CHRISTMAS PAST is also the perfect model of the God Saturn and may have been inspired by him.

    American Christmas is really just a Saturnalia. And people of no faith at all enjoy the season and look forward to the fun – INCLUDING ME!

    Though it may not have been Dickens’ intention – THE GHOST OF CHRISTMAS PRESENT is also the perfect model of the God Saturn and may have been inspired by him.

  • CJ

    PsiCop, you say “That there are people who don’t believe as they do, is a constant reminder that their beliefs aren’t as certain as they’d like them to be, this constant insecurity triggers anxiety that they just can’t handle. This in turn causes them to lash out irrationally … including making up lies about other people in order to make themselves feel better.”

    Bravo. You really nail it on the head here and this is rarely addressed openly. I say this because I recently came out of the toxic fundamentalist “bubble” after almost 30 years. I can tell you it was akin to being a drug addict for most of my life. I consider myself a progressive evangelical now, I essentially believe much of the same, but my perspective and internal motives are 180 degrees different (thank God). I was like Kirk Cameron for decades. And it was awful. There’s so much to say about this issue and how American Evangelicalism has truly morphed into what I term “Modern Phariseeism”. It’s no longer about loving your neighbor and serving the disadvantaged. It’s no longer about befriending the “sinner” and reserving eternal judgement solely for God. It’s now a full-fledged war against anyone that does not think exactly like them – it’s attacks and slander, condemnation and pride. God has become small and inept…and must be defended at all cost. The same “vipers” and “whitewashed tombs” Jesus excoriated – these are what they have become. All but them are “enemies of God” and must be suppressed. It’s all about FEAR now. And the amazing thing is they have absolutely no clue they have become this abomination. The fruit they bear is rotten and/or fabricated, evidenced by the diminishing influence of Christianity upon this country. (LOL- just look at the falsified smoke-and-mirror ‘ex-gay’ movement). Be assured, people like KC and his ilk will eventually only be preaching to the “Choir” as their continued misguided efforts push society away from their twisted brand of Jesus. As a Christian, I can only pray that as the Modern Pharisee movement self-destructs, the rest of our culture understands these prideful fools do NOT truly represent the heart of God.

  • your closing actually merits the cliché lol…I really did!
    well said – I’ve always had an issue with people trying to tie American history to Christianity – they need to be separate, as they are. there’s a good reason.
    great read!

  • Thanks for weighing in on my comment (and positively, at that, although that doesn’t matter as much to me). My own background is that I’d been raised a devout Catholic but later became a fundamentalist Protestant (although I didn’t remain a fundie anywhere near as long as you did).

    I also have to remark that you certainly aren’t the first to notice that fundies have become a latter-day version of the Pharisees whom Jesus excoriated in the gospels (although the gospels’ depiction of true historical Pharisees is in all likelihood inaccurate … but for our purposes this is beside the point). They are, indeed, quite “proud,” to the point of loudly and explicitly disobeying their own Jesus’ clear and simple instructions (see http://www.agnostic-library.com/ma/scriptural-passages-christians-need-to-read-know-and-obey/ for a partial explanation of how they do so).

    Sadly, though, I find I must disagree that “their continued misguided efforts push society away from their twisted brand of Jesus.” In my experience, no such thing is happening. Quite the opposite, these people have a great deal of support from the U.S. at large (which is majority Christian). Christian fundamentalists make up perhaps 25% of the total population, but they comprise around 40% of Congress. Clearly their influence goes beyond just their own numbers. Obviously a great many people outside their orbit nevertheless respect them and support their goals.

    If in fact the Christian fundies were repulsing people, we wouldn’t see this happening. And if there weren’t a large proportion of Americans who lap up Kirkie’s B.S. and nonsense, no person or company would finance his insipid movies.

    I can’t help but lay blame for this at the feet of the American Christian majority (fundie and non-fundie alike). They’ve allowed the monster of Christian fundamentalism to be born in their midst; they’ve fed it and continue to foster it; some of those who truly have no business doing so (e.g. the American R.C. bishops, who really are the fundies ecclesiastical foes) have gone so far as to ally with them; and they refuse to lift a finger to rein them in, much less stamp out their fierce, militant religionism (which is what ought to have happened decades ago).

  • My opinion Kirk Cameron is taking being a Christian out of control. I’m a believer of GOD and he has helped me through alot. I will never believe that our Lord hates gays. GOD loves everone. Love is love, I’m not judging anyone, nor am I going to put down gay people. GOD has a place in heaven for all of us. Kirk, give it a rest and stop judging people. I have no kids but I love my niece and nephews and if they were gay I would still love them just as much. Love is love and GOD wants us all to be happy. I’m a believer, Jesus loves me and when I pass I’m going to the other side. No one ever dies there is life after death. Stop with all your nonsense Kirk…Jesus Rocks!!!!??

  • Mitch Mills

    Isn’t it a really nasty feeling when you see people embarrass themselves over and over again in the public view, even when the public response is such that it should be clear to them they look extremely foolish, and might want to rethink their position?? Between Ray Comfort saying that the banana is the atheists nightmare because god so obviously designed it perfectly for us, blissfully ignorant that the banana was one of the first human engineered foods for humans, by humans, to Kirk Cameron’s blatant gaping holes in his education and gigantic rifts in his supposed logic, these two don’t even command the respect of a carnival sideshow. I would feel really bad for them, if they didn’t invite their own shame upon themselves, time and again. I mean, really, crocaduck? Really? Jesus Kirk, go back to acting. And Ray? Just go back.