Shroud of Turin conference draws believers to St. Louis

Print More
A 14-foot-long stretch of cloth mysteriously imprinted with a faint, brownish image of a naked man and wounds that mirror those of a crucifixion has inspired decades of debate over whether it could be Jesus’ burial shroud.

Photo courtesy of St. Louis Shroud Conference 2014

A 14-foot-long stretch of cloth mysteriously imprinted with a faint, brownish image of a naked man and wounds that mirror those of a crucifixion has inspired decades of debate over whether it could be Jesus’ burial shroud.

Active RNS subscribers and members can view this content by logging-in here.

ST. LOUIS (RNS) To some, the puzzle surrounding the Shroud of Turin was solved when laboratories in the U.S., England and Switzerland determined through carbon dating that it originated around 1260 to 1390. To others, it remains a mystery.

  • Jack

    The writer is either lazy or disingenuous, because she leaves out the big question of how a medieval artist was able to imbed a three-dimensional image onto the cloth. Nobody has answered that question satisfactorily.

    The evidence for the Christian faith stands on its own apart from the Shroud. If the shroud is for real, it’s icing on the cake. If not, then no big deal.

  • Larry

    The Shroud of Turin has been conclusively debunked since they carbon dated it in 1988

    “Nobody has answered that question satisfactorily. ”

    Actually there are plenty of plausible answers. None of which require the authenticity of the shroud. You are claiming the painters/fabricators couldn’t wrap the cloth around somebody at the monastery?

    The whole purpose of the conference is to allow people a trip to Northern Italy on the expense accounts of their church/lab and to collect money from the gullible (faithful).

  • Jon

    The shroud is a obvious fraud. Larry’s site does a great job of summarizing and explaining the literally dozens of clearly and undeniable reasons – but for those who are too lazy to click on a link and read a bit, some of the most clear are that the shroud doesn’t show a real human. The dimensions are all freakishly off, like the arms being different lengths, a lack of ears, a tiny forehead, hands in an impossible position (try it – lie flat on the floor with your arms limply at your sides and cross your hands over your crotch), the narrow face (a real sheet on a face would bend down over the sides, giving a wide face), and so on. That’s not to mention the fact that three different labs produced the same carbon testing date for the middle ages, and so on and so on.

    That’s good for Christians, I guess, since it contradicts the discriptions in the Bibles again and again (Jesus buried in “linen strips”, not one shroud, the wounds not matching the gospels, etc.

    The use of pious frauds to part people from their money is thousands of years old. Luther himself talked often about how silly it makes Christians look.

  • Dan Krischke

    “I don’t need the shroud for my faith,” said Lind, who describes himself as a Christian. “I like solving problems, so this is a problem that I’m trying to solve.” This is probably the best answer there is. I am Catholic and do not need the Shroud to confirm or debunk my faith. It is just an interesting aspect of science to get a proper date of origin. I personally think it is a waste of money, but so are so many other endeavors, like trying to find Higg’s Boson and other scientific cul-de-sacs. I trust in God because I look at nature and see Him in so many things. Peace and God bless.

  • Larry

    What do you have against the Higg’s Boson?

  • Joseph

    Larry and Jon,
    What a pair of pathetic “debunkers” you are! SCIENTIFIC research on the shroud concludes that it is a mystery (photography? laser technology? in the middle ages?) as to how the image got on there in the first place! And, to those who are narrow-minded bigots, it has been conclusively demonstrated, on History Channel TV, by scientists that the pieces of the shroud from which the carbon test samples were taken were COTTON, NOT LINEN, which were woven into the damaged shroud in the 11th or 12th century! If you had read the article with an open mind, you “debunkers” would have some of the scientific facts of the mystery of the Shroud of Turin!

  • Joseph

    Jon you and Larry are both the real “frauds”
    the fcats are as stated and there is more real evidence that it could have been the actual burial cloth for Jesus:

    2005: Thermal Chemist, Ray Rogers, followed
    up on new spectroscopic data showing the material of the corner cut for carbon dating may be different from the rest of the Shroud. He obtained thread samples from the C-14 corner and thread samples from the interior of the Shroud. Additional micro-chemical and spectroscopic tests showed the samples were not the same. Results published in a peer-reviewed journal confirmed initial concerns. The sample cut for C-14 dating is from a medieval reweaving and not part of the original shroud.
    “The radiocarbon sample was not part of the original cloth of the Shroud of Turin. The radiocarbon date was thus not valid for determining the true age of the shroud.”
    Rogers also determined the evidence of a madder root dye used to blend in the color of newer threads with the more yellowed threads of the original cloth. He also found cotton and starch in the C-14 sample but not from the main body of the Shroud. Starch was used to stiffen the cotton in order to make the repair.
    The carbon dating tests of 1988 are now considered by many to be a complete debacle. The carbon labs violated the sampling protocol established for the tests in 1985. Three different samples were to be cut; instead only one sample was used. Ignoring caution from archaeologists, they cut the sample from the most handled area of the cloth, the outside corner edge exactly where it had been grabbed and held by Church authorities for numerous public exhibitions. It was an area that had the most potential for contamination, damage and repair.

  • Obsydian

    For all the ignorant, the doubters & the bigoted “skeptics” out there:

    This site will be most useful:

  • Jack

    Pr Giulio Fanti of the Bologna University, could date the Shroud between 280 BC and 220 AD with 3 different methods excluding carbondating.
    The issue is settled in my opinion.

  • Re: “For all the ignorant, the doubters & the bigoted ‘skeptics’ out there:”

    Well done! You just convinced this “skeptic”! Why, of course the very best way to convince those insolent “skeptic” types is to insult them, by calling them “ignorant” and “bigoted.” There’s no better way of getting them on your side than by being rude and nasty to them!

    Ahem, time to turn off the sarcasm …

    Your insulting attitude has convinced me there is NO compelling reason for me to go to the link you cited. I will no doubt see more nastiness and derision there, rather than a cogent, reasoned, scientifically-valid explanation for why the Shroud can only be of divine origin.

    Thank you for helping me steer clear of an obvious waste of my time! And thank you for managing to live down to all my expectations of devout believers. Congratulations!

  • RON


  • Obsydian


    Psych …… my comments were directed at the previous obnoxious posters, & their Ilk, who love to Troll pages such as these, & whose “insulting attitude” tone, rudeness, nastiness, contempt & derision is an ample & abundant display. Me thinks thou protesteth too much !

    Your refusal to look at the link provided is your loss, & in Truth just a juvenile cop out on your part ! Instead of turning off your “sarcasm”, why don’t you turn on your brain ?!

    Likewise, it is juvenile delinquents & clowns like you who continue to reinforce my deserved contempt towards Neo-Atheists & Sceptics alike !!

    Congratulations also !

    Please, by all means enjoy your deluded Bubble-world & Ego stroking Echo Chamber.


  • Larry

    Actually your attempt at undebunking lacks credibility

    Rogers was full of crap.
    [Notice that I give a link to my source as to bolster credibility and allow you to see it for yourself]

    “However, Rogers’ assertions to the contrary, both the cotton and the madder have been found elsewhere on the shroud. Both were specifically reported by famed microanalyst Walter McCrone (1996, 85) who was commissioned to examine samples taken by the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP). After McCrone discovered the image was rendered in tempera paint, STURP held him to a secrecy agreement, while statements were made to the press that no evidence of artistry was found. McCrone was then, he says, “drummed out” of the organization [Nickell 1998, 124—125; 2004, 193—194]. As evidence of its pro-authenticity bias, STURP’s leaders served on the executive committee of the Holy Shroud Guild.

    Not only did McCrone find “occasional” cotton fibers on the Shroud, but the source of Rogers’ sample, Gilbert Raes, has since been challenged as to his claim, cited by Rogers (2005, 189), that “the cotton was an ancient Near Eastern variety.” In fact, others—including French textile expert Gabriel Vial and major pro-shroud author Ian Wilson (1998, 71, 97)—believe the cotton may be entirely incidental. They point out it could have come from the cotton gloves or clothin

    “Although Rogers is a research chemist, unlike McCrone he is not an internationally celebrated microanalyst with special expertise in examining questioned paintings. Working in his “home laboratory,” he did not, as far as his report informs, use a “blind” approach as McCrone did to mitigate against the subjectivity that has continually plagued the work of shroud advocates. Moreover, McCrone once referred to Rogers’ and his fellow STURP co-author’s “incompetence in light microscopy” and pointed out errors in the test procedures they relied on (McCrone 1996, 157, 158—171).”

    “Science has proved the Shroud of Turin a medieval fake, but defenders of authenticity turn the scientific method on its head by starting with the desired conclusion and working backward to the evidence—picking and choosing and reinterpreting as necessary. It is an approach I call “shroud science.””

  • Larry
  • Larry

    Joey, since you didn’t give a link to your cut and paste, we can assume it is of a source which has no credibility.

    Your rebuttal source has been debunked as well

  • Larry

    Since you computer is obviously of a cheap manufacture and lacking in the ability to turn off the caps lock key, I would have to conclude that you probably lack the necessary resources to come up with a cognent rebuttal to the clear evidence of its fakery


    Have you ever seen medieval paintings? If you did, you would not have said something so ignorant. .

  • Larry

    It was painted on. It doesn’t even have signs of blood on it. Unless Jesus was hung like a ham for 3 days or slaughtered kosher style, that would not be possible.

    History Channel frequently indulges in nonsense because its primary source of income is commercial advertising. There is no reason any credible “educational” channel would have shows like Ancient Aliens.

  • The Shroud is no doubt a mystery! After all as human being with limited intellects even the greatest of scientist admit they do not know it all! Saying the shroud is not real is Atheist thinking wanting to be right so they can continue thinking in an Atheist manner. The Atheist have one issue about carbon dating that casts doubts on the Shroud so therefore to them the 100 other proven facts don’t give a reasonable person pause? Please! And Please keep your code words, “debunked, “claimed”, and “allegedly” “purported”. It an ad hominem tactic.
    Being an Atheist is just like any other religion. It is based on facts to a point that they accept and but the rest is faith! I believe in God based on the facts I accept and the rest is based on my faith, true.
    Here’s why I disagree with Atheist. Here’s why the Shroud is true. It’s all about a person’s perception of the world. Consider this Parallel: Someone living in a one-dimensional world, where there can only be two points on a line, could not imagine a square. And in a two-dimensional world, where squares exist, a cube would be incomprehensible. That’s how God stands in relation to us. So we accept what He has revealed about Himself, even though we find it difficult to fathom. Accordingly, the error in Atheist thinking about God and the Shroud is they say to themselves all things must fit into this square because a cube is impossible! They say to themselves what they consider impossible must have an explanation not found yet.
    The problem is when you speak the truth you alway encounter a made up mind on whatever issue. And when you present facts these facts are always disregarded, dismissed, taken out of context or explained away. Historical context usually takes a big back seat too. So the dialog is usually fruitless. The proper way to find truth is to first unmake up your mind! This takes a lot of courage! Then follow the facts of the evidence. Then accept these facts and draw your conclusions. Lots of people do it backwards especially the Atheist. They think to themselves that something is right then only accept facts and evidence if it agrees with what they think is right. (Again, it must fit in the square because the cube is impossible) Everything else has to be wrong in some way or the evidence to prove it wrong is just not discovered yet. Now here is the link to an objective website on the issue and not the Atheist web site being passed around!

  • Steve Lamprou

    Hi guys,

    I’m an older medical student with a master’s in Biology – I have watched numerous Shroud documentaries, and read some of the scientific papers. You have to remember that there are legitimate PhDs and MDs that study the cloth – there are peer reviewed scientific journals. This is NOT a snope debate – this is honest science. The cloth is incredible. Without getting into anything technical lets be blunt. The original carbon dating used a sample size of one (n=1) thus, the conclusions are illegitimate. College students know this. They clipped a single corner and cut that into 3 pieces, so its essentially the same sample tested by 3 separate labs – its not representative of the entire cloth. Furthermore, there is a drawing in a fairly ancient manuscript that depicts the shrouds herringbone weave, and signature burn marks that puts the shroud 100-300 years older than the carbon dating. Lets say that the carbon dating was accurate, the plant matter of the corner that was used as a sample is not the same as the rest of the cloth because the sample comes from a patch. See a book on the art of French invisible weaving. The image is oxidation of plant matter and contains three-dimensional information.

    But I really wanted to chime and say that the carbon dating doesn’t prove anything.

  • see below

  • @Chris,

    “Being an Atheist is just like any other religion.”

    Good grief, No it isn’t.

    Atheists have no belief in a God – that is all atheism is.
    Show me a reason to believe in a God and I will be happy to try it out.

    Until such time a you provide evidence, there is no reason to believe.
    My mind is not closed – God may exist – but I DO NOT BELIEVE IT TO BE TRUE without further evidence.

    Atheist – “it appears there is no god.”
    Religion – “SHUT UP! SHUT UP!”

  • In addition to the bloodstained features of Jesus there is also seen an intact (not bloddied) facial image in the neck area –an image more visible and noticeable the larger the photo image of the Shroud Face. Is there an explanation for the second image

  • “Good grief”! Yes, my corner on smartness friend, it is like a religion because it is based on faith too! Did you not say yourself, “God may exist”? Accordingly, your disbelief is based on faith too by your own words! You do understand comparisons don’t you? By the way, I like your humility of thought allowing for all possibilities before you decide what is true. Wait, I’m sorry, you did not do that because of your arrogance in thinking. Atheist always want proof there is no God from Christians and then don’t believe the proof given because it is not possible for you to understand it or it’s never good enough proof for you. Cubes don’t and will never exist to you! Again, you said it yourself, “My mind is closed” as you explained.
    The truth is you and your Christian website trolling friends have no interest in a fruitful, intellectual discussions of the facts presented here as we see it. You don’t want to understand. You just want to throw a brick in the discussions here by mixing some truth with lies to promote malice to Christian blogging here.

  • @Chris,

    1. I said my mind is NOT closed. You have close YOUR mind, not me.

    2. “…and then don’t believe the proof given…” – Yeah? Like what? Show me.

    3. Your argument for God is no different than a Greek who argues for Aphrodite’s existence or for Zeus’ existence. Yet you have rejected Zeus and Aphrodite as made-up gods, nonetheless.
    If I am arrogant to DOUBT god’s reality – you are doubly arrogant for doubting all claimed evidence in favor of other gods while insisting only yours is the correct one.

    Atheist – “I don’t think god is real”
    Religious person – “How dare you deny my empty claim! So arrogant!”

  • @Joseph,

    The shroud of Turin is not real. It is a fake.
    The evidence is conclusive.

    Christians should consider the implications of pushing nonsense. There is a price to pay for selling the world a lie.

    “Execute my enemies in front of me” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    This is from the parable of the minas – look into what this parable has meant for millions of people who were on the receiving end and you might actually conclude that Jesus was much more evil than whatever is claimed about Satan.

    Religion would be laughable were it not so deadly.

  • @Joseph,

    Hilarious that you are trying to use science to try to prove that the science of the study on the shroud was wrong.

    Even if Jesus rose from the dead – and there isn’t the slightest evidence of it, you could easily conclude that he was an evil god and not a good god!

    “not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law” – JESUS (Matthew 5:18-19)

    Who says this is good?

  • Nonsense.

    And furthermore, ignorance is not the way of the skeptic. Ignorance is the way of the ‘believers’. You should have more respect for yourself than to follow a blatant pandering lie.

  • @Jack,

    Giulio Fanti is a famous crackpot. You are an easy mark.

  • Jane

    I think that your explanation of an Atheist way of thinking is right on!!

    It’s thinking reminds me of narcissism(SELF CENTEREDNESS). If they will not allow themselves to see the Shroud as it is, then they are really missing something beautiful about Faith: visible and invisible.

  • Robert McCall

    I think the most frustrating part of the shroud mystery, is the existing scientific ability to answer the existing question of how old the shroud is. No one doubts carbon dating is an accurate method of dating. It is only through the application of the carbon dating that was performed which raises questions. Another sample should be taken from a location on the should which minimizes the impact, but which all experts agree should represent the age of the original shroud. That would resolve at least one vital part of this mystery, the shrouds age.

  • Pamela

    One of the more fascinating bits of evidence for the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin, and which helps to further debunk the erroneous carbon dating is the Sudarium of Oviedo. See the Comparative Study of the Shroud and the Sudarium. All evidence, including blood stains and blood type (rare AB), suggests that both cloths were used on the same male victim. In addition, the Sudarium has been documented and revered from much earlier than the erroneous carbon dating gives.

    Factor in the documented Eucharistic Miracle like that at Lanciano, which also gives the blood type of rare AB as Jesus’ own, and I think it is too much to be mere coincidence. Jesus died for us, taking on our sin through His precious type AB blood, which (again I do not believe is a coincidence) just so happens to be the Universal Recipient blood type. He rose from the dead and the image on the Shroud of Turin is the result of the awesome power that would require.

    So much evidence, but people will believe what they chose to believe. I am often amazed, but then I recall that the Pharisees even saw the miracles Jesus performed, like raising Lazarus from the dead, and still rejected Him. Free will…

    Still, Jesus left us evidence for a reason. He did not abandon Thomas to unbelief, and He still performs miracles for whatever reason He deems necessary. I believe the Shroud of Turin, and Eucharistic Miracles are real. I do not need them to believe, and believed long before I’d ever heard of them, but I won’t deny that they are edifying. Deo gratias.

  • @Jane,


    You claim to have the most powerful, most amazing, most incredible Creator of all the universe as your personal friend because He chose you. He grants you permission to judge others while he helps you get all the things you need…

    And I’m self-centered for not claiming that, also?

    Religion truly is mind poison.

  • Staltwoth

    Bravo Pamela!

  • Dan Krischke

    I have nothing against science when it is for a useful purpose. Money spent on supercolliders and such might be better spent on other life saving endeavors.

  • “…Factor in the documented Eucharistic Miracle”

    Good grief! What nonsense!

  • @Dan,

    “…Supercolliders and such might be better spent on other life saving endeavors”


    How many lives have been saved by people being able to call 911 from the highway????

    The lack of scientific knowledge in the USA must be at an ALL TIME HIGH !! I BLAME RELIGION. AND I BLAME YOUR SCIENCE TEACHER!
    (Did you go to school in Tennessee or Kentucky? Those kids have learned only Creationism – everyone I speak to from Tennessee seems to know nothing about science!)

  • Re: “Psych …… my comments were directed at the previous obnoxious posters, & their Ilk, who love to Troll pages such as these, & whose ‘insulting attitude’ tone, rudeness, nastiness, contempt & derision is an ample & abundant display.”

    Ah. So you’re proving those nasty, rude people exist, by being nasty and rude yourself … ? Um … OK. I guess.

    If you were trying to lampoon those sorts of folks, though, the thing to have done would have been to provide some indication you were lampooning them. Your short comment included no such indications.

    Re: “Your refusal to look at the link provided is your loss, & in Truth just a juvenile cop out on your part ! Instead of turning off your ‘sarcasm’, why don’t you turn on your brain ?!”

    Says the person who posted a rude, juvenile comment, then backtracked from it by attempting to suggest it was a parody, but in doing so included more insults and accusations.

    All you’ve done is to confirm my original assessment. QED. Thank you!

  • SAGE

    Jesus is the ultimate man of peace. If you have read what eyewitnesses have written about him you all would know this. Don’t argue over his shroud. Peace be with you, all of you.

  • Obsydian


    As you were !

  • Pamela

    Now there’s a cogent argument. /

    How about you look at the scientific studies and evidence, and then explain it for us? How do you explain the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano that has been studied by scientists and doctors and has been documented since the 7th century?

    You are shown evidence that you can only answer with “I refuse to accept it!” “I will not serve!!!”

  • Thank you Jane! They are narcissistic it their thinking. They want proof and the God/man of Should is looking right at them! I love His beatitudes, parables and promises. This Shroud and His words paints the picture of a truth they don’t want to see because they have an agenda. But He gives humanity the proper agenda that gives life meaning! They do miss this beauty. These types have always been with us. God answered them Himself in Proverbs 20-33. “Wisdom cries aloud in the streets…

    How long will you turn away at my reproof?
    [The arrogant delight in their arrogance,
    and fools hate knowledge.]
    Lo! I will pour out to you my spirit,
    I will acquaint you with my words:
    ‘Because I called and you refused,
    extended my hand and no one took notice;e
    Because you disdained all my counsel,
    and my reproof you ignored—
    I, in my turn, will laugh at your doom;
    will mock when terror overtakes you;
    When terror comes upon you like a storm,
    and your doom approaches like a whirlwind;
    when distress and anguish befall you.’
    Then they will call me, but I will not answer;
    they will seek me, but will not find me,
    Because they hated knowledge,
    and the fear of the LORD they did not choose.
    They ignored my counsel,
    they spurned all my reproof;
    Well, then, they shall eat the fruit* of their own way,
    and with their own devices be glutted.
    For the straying of the naive kills them,
    the smugness of fools destroys them.
    But whoever obeys me dwells in security”

  • @Chris & Jane,

    Do you read your Bibles?
    This is the word of the Lord:




    “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” (Corinthians 15:22)



    I would not agree that Jesus has anything to do with peace. But you are right – the shroud adds nothing to this nonsense.

  • Pamela,

    ‘The (supposed) miracle at Lanciano” is a ridiculous claim.
    But let’s suppose it is true.

    Then God is disgusting. It would mean that God showed he could intercede in a million different ways over the centuries but he somehow decided not to!? How awful is that?

    Of course it is nonsense. If miracles and prayers were effective, ambulances would drive up to churches instead of hospitals! Instead churches are only good for dead bodies and unthinking minds.

    End this nonsense. Stop spreading garbage stories, please.
    You have no evidence and all of the burden is on the person who makes the claim!

  • @Chris,

    “This Shroud and His words paints the picture of a truth they don’t want to see because they have an agenda.”

    What agenda??
    Show me the evidence that God exists. If you point to a rag with some stains on it you should be deeply, DEEPLY embarrassed. Is that the best you can do?

    A rag?

    Is this how your god leaves messages and clues? Is your god this lame? He plays hide and seek and forces us to do radiometric carbon dating to see if it is real only to find out that the numbers don’t add up???

    What a con job! Shame on you.

  • Well it’s obvious you are wise in your own eyes. You continue to prove about your thinking all that I have said about you. If fact, you are a perfect case study in regards to Atheistic thinking. You child people to convince you but you know there will be no convincing you. You just use that as an opportunity to to come back with your pat answers which lack insight and thought when looked at the Faithful prism of thinking. Ad you pull out all the stops to make your points including misquoting the Bible as another famous Biblical character did with Chris in the desert. Good luck my corner of smartness friend. I’ll take to Shame of believing in the Beatitudes and parables. Thank you and bye!

  • @Chris,

    Believe whatever you want – just keep it out of our laws!

    I want none of your deadly philosophy pushing its way into our public laws.

    NO to Creationism
    NO to Intelligent design,
    NO to the rejection of science and Evolution.
    NO religion for Corporations
    NO denial of Climate Change Science
    NO vicarious redemption.


    Keep your crazy religion out of our laws, out of our public meetings and keep it in your church and we can all live together in peace.

    Got it?

  • Pamela

    You would like to blame all the evil in the world on God, because He could stop it. It is true that He could, but that would mean He would have to reject our Free Will, which He gave us. Would you have Him force you to love Him, or force you to give up your favorite vice/sin? Do you have sex outside of marriage, or view pornography, or use contraception, or get hammered on a Saturday night, or lie to your friends/family/boss, or any of a thousand other sinful behaviors? Do you wish you could not do those things as you chose?

    Have you noticed that the further the world gets from obeying His laws, the more brutal the world becomes? He gave us laws for our own good, but we reject them and Him, and you want to blame Him for the consequences of our actions. Do you not see that He is giving us what we ask, when we are clearly telling Him to get lost? He is removing His protection, just as we ask. Romans 1. It could have been written about us to a tee. Just more evidence that you clearly refuse to see.

    As to the Eucharistic Miracles, there is evidence. I told you what to look up, but rather doubt you did. The one in Lanciano has been studied, and found to be human heart tissue, but not just a bit of it, but a complete cross section (if I read the report correctly) which includes the entirety of the human heart. This has been present since the 800’s. Not only should organic matter have long since decayed, but it still has the same properties as fresh blood. The globules of blood all weigh the same, though they are different sizes and each one weighs the same independently as they do together. There is no explanation for this. Well, there is, but you refuse to see it.

    The feast of Corpus Christi was instituted because of a Eucharistic Miracle, the blood of which is still venerated on the corporal from the Middle Ages. I haven’t read if they’ve done blood tests on it, but I would wager it would come back AB. Did you look at the Comparative Study of the Sudarium of Oviedo and the Shroud of Turin that I gave the link to?

    There are loads of evidence. Jesus gave His life to save us. I wish you would ask God for a seed of faith, that you might see and understand.

  • @Pamela.

    “You would like to blame all the evil in the world on God”

    No. I do not believe in God.
    I blame most of the world’s evil on people who do believe in God:


    Osama Bin Laden
    Rudolf Hess
    Adolf Eichmann
    Cardinal Bernard Law
    The Koch Brothers
    Marshall Herff Applewhite, Jr.
    Ayman Al Zawahiri
    Robert Tilton
    Joseph Mengele
    Ayatollah Khomeini
    Hahmoud Ahmadinejad
    Peter Popoff
    Reichsfuhrer SS Julius Shreck
    Reichsfuhrer SS Joseph Berchtold
    Max Koegl (Manager of Auchwitz)
    Reichsfuhrer SS Erhard Heiden
    Reichsfuhrer SS Heinrich Himmler
    Reichsfuhrer SS Karl Hanke
    Archbishop Cardinal Law
    Adolf Eichmann
    Adolf Deikmann
    Fritz Hardjenstein
    Werner Braune
    Bob Morehead
    Fred Phelps, Sr.
    Oral Roberts
    Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker
    Matthew Hale
    Al Queda
    Billy James Hargis
    Bob Larson
    Jim Jones
    Saddam Hussein
    David Koresh
    John Paulk
    Suicide Bombers
    D.V. Grant
    Mike Warnke
    Emperor Hirohito
    Ariel Sharon
    Yasser Arafat
    Kim Jung Un
    Kim jung il
    Benjamin Netanyahu
    Paul Crouch
    Pat Robertson
    Marcial Maciel Degollado
    Michelle Bachmann
    Sarah Palin
    Franz Stangl
    Paul Blobel
    Hermann Goering
    Josef Kramer
    Jerry Falwell
    Oskar Dirlewanger
    Jimmy Swaggart
    Creflo Dollar
    Ilse Koch
    Joseph Goebbels
    Reverend Sun Myung Moon
    Sunday Adelaja
    Pope Leo X
    Anathole Serromba
    Jean Bertand Aristide
    Mel Gibson
    Benny Hinn
    T.D Jakes
    Dick Cheney
    Adolph Hitler
    Kim Jong-Il
    Kaiser Wilhelm II
    Kim Il Sung
    Rush Limbaugh
    Erst Kaltenbruenner
    Michael Bray
    Paul Jennings Hill
    Father Charles Edward Coughlin
    Tomás de Torquemada
    Emperor Constantine

    If god is good – why does he have such a disgusting marketing team?
    If God is moral, why do his injunctions lead to immoral behavior?

  • Larry

    Obsydian, you are clearly a liar.

    You have openly denied faith as the basis of your religious belief, with spurious nonsense of allegedly objective proof of the existence of God. Of course no such proof exists, nor ever formed the basis of your religious belief.

    You believe because of faith. Faith is the absence of evidence.

  • Larry

    Not quite. The disputing of the carbon dating is itself questionable. Yes you have legitimate PhD’s and MD’s studying it, but many with a clear agenda and an audience primed for confirmation bias.

    As a medical student, what color does dried blood take over time? Red? Ochre? Or is it something else?

    “Dr. Raymond Rogers, a retired chemist from Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico, claims that the part of the cloth tested and dated at around 1350 was not part of the original shroud. According to Rogers, the labs that dated the cloth to the 14th century tested a patch made to repair damage done by fire. How does he know this, since the patch was destroyed in the testing? According to shroud investigator Joe Nickell, Rogers “relied on two little threads allegedly left over from the sampling” and the word of “pro-authenticity researchers who guessed that the carbon-14 sample came from a ‘rewoven area’ of repair.” According to Nickell, P.E. Damon’s 1989 article published in Nature claims that “textile experts specifically made efforts to select a site for taking the radiocarbon sample that was away from patches and seams.”

  • Larry

    The blood was the color of dried paint. Not dried blood.
    “the head is 5% too large for its body, the nose is disproportionate, and the arms are too long. ”

    “The first historical mention of the shroud as the “shroud of Turin” is in the late 16th century…”

  • Larry

    Ignorant Philistine. Research into the very basic nature of all matter and energy is useful for the entire world.

    Today’s supercolliders are the grandchild of the cyclotrons which allowed us to conceive of and explore nuclear fission and fusion.The processes involved in supplying energy or wiping out entire cities with a push of a button.

    To get some idea of the level of advancement involved, the first cyclotron was the size of a poker table. Now their successors take up the size of a small city.

  • Pingback: Multifaith Monday 10/13/2014 — Faith Seeker Kids()

  • I know your agenda and good luck with your “got it” demands. The prediction of Christ, “…the gates of hell will not prevail…” has held true for 2000 years. And “crazy religion”? Huh? Just because you are so narcissistic and lack understanding because of a perception problem with insight analysis does not mean the rest of us has to follow suit. Please! You came to a Catholic website with this trash thinking and you don’t think you were going to get any push back? Anyway By hey consider this recent news your atheist friends have not developed any talking points yet on your way out the blog door:

    “Authored by thirty-two scientists, and conducted at more than a dozen hospitals over a period of four years, the study focused on cardiac-arrest patients who had no clinical signs of brain activity to see if there was any kind of awareness. It was not just focused on those who reported full near-death experiences (which tend to be overwhelmingly positive) but on everyone who lost vital signs in a documented way. Nurses and doctors cooperated.

    The big news: it verified the idea that mental activity continues even after clinical “death.”

    Released just last month (9/14), it was the largest, most thorough such study on the subject yet, spearheaded by researchers at the University of Southampton in the U.K. and the State University of New York at Stony Brook in the U.S.. It involved patients at seventy-five hospitals, zeroing in on cases at fifteen and including strict protocol (with even shelves installed to see if any patients who said they had risen from their bodies could describe special symbols on the top of shelves above eye level, which one did).

    Forty percent of those studied reported some level of consciousness during the time when their brains should have been completely closed down. “The evidence thus far suggests that in the first few minutes after death, consciousness is not annihilated,” noted Dr. Sam Parnia, the director of resuscitation research at Stony Brook.

    As the study itself stated [available in its entirety here], “Among 2,060 cardiac-arrest events, 140 survivors completed stage one interviews, while 101 of 140 patients completed stage two interviews. Forty-six percent had memories with seven major cognitive themes: fear; animals/plants; bright light; violence/persecution; deja-vu; family; recalling events post-cardiac arrest and nine percent had near-death experiences, while two percent described awareness with explicit recall of ‘seeing’ and ‘hearing’ actual events related to their resuscitation. One had a verifiable period of conscious awareness during which time cerebral function was not expected.”

    The study was able to rule out hallucination, illusions, or surges in neural energy as explanations for the post-death consciousness.

    The focus was on the very initial stages of classic near-death episodes (those first several minutes), before any detailed encounters with the other side. Classic near-death experiences often involve a person who has been dead for a longer time or left his or her body more swiftly and completely.

    Still, eight percent reported encounter with a mystical being or person or heard an unidentifiable voice. Three percent saw deceased loved ones or religious figures. Twenty-two percent felt peace or pleasantness.

    Those who experienced fear or “violence” made comments such as, “Being dragged through deep water,” “This whole event seemed full of violence and I am not a violent man, it was out of character,” “I had to go through a ceremony and . . . the ceremony was to get burned. There were four men with me, whichever lied would die. . .. I saw men in coffins being buried upright.”

    This is not out of line with the many near-death encounters, when the first few moments of death can be a state of some confusion and transition, before vistas open and there is actually entry into the afterlife (or an aspect of it). In the vast majority of full-fledged near-death episodes, tremendous joy is reported and the person loses all fear of death. But as our upcoming book will show, there are also hellish experiences.

  • @Chris,

    Near death experience? That is the best evidence you have?
    Who is the narcissist now?

    1. Even Atheists who almost die report these visions!
    Conclusion? It must not be God doing it!

    2. People who take certain medicines report these visions!
    Conclusion? God is in a pill??? Unlikely!

    3. Hallucinations of the dying brain in shock explains all of these phenomena – and it is just another natural effect as the brain is cut off from oxygen in localized places.

    If Your God thinks this hide and seek nonsense is worthy of respect or worship you are hugely fooling yourself. Don’t call it piety or righteousness if Atheists experience the exact same phenomena!

    Like I said, keep this religious nonsense out of our public laws
    and out of our politics and schools and I’m fine with it – fantasize about all sorts of gods and angels you want.

    NO GOD stuff in our laws! Okay?

  • Pam, you are 100% correct. But you can’t argue with someone who is not interesting in the truth but only has an agenda to spread Atheistism. That’s why he’s on this site. This person puts his fingers in his ears and says no no no to anything you say as if he is the final judge of your discussion. When he argues against the fantastic Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano he thinks he is arguing with the Vatican instead of the WORLD HEATH ORGANIZATION that approve it as a miracle. He probably has no healthcare experience at all. You have to be narcissistic to think you are smarter than them but he does! So you can’t argue with a fanatic.
    refer him to this web site.Here for Christians and Atheists to argue reasonably. This guy is a lunatic!
    And finally this!

  • Science will eventually prove our common parentage in Adam and Eve, the Flood and Noah’s Ark, and all the other stories of the Bible. When it does, there will still be disbelievers.

  • Science has spoken already on all of your claims.
    Your claims didn’t happen.

    Never once in history has a scientific discovery been overturned by a religious claim. It always goes the other way.

    Every time a god was claimed to be behind some natural phenomenon, Science has shown there was no god at all.

  • If I may be so bold please accept this letter as what I think the God/man of the Shroud would say to us and you!

    Mr. Atheist give Me a chance to reveal Myself to you!
    I am Jesus. I am God Even if you wished to, you cannot remove yourself from my presence on earth. You see, I created earth. You might say the earth belongs to me. Now do I say say that you belong to me? No I say I want you to belong to Me. I want to possess your heart. Why do I use the word heart? when truly it is your soul that I seek? Because the heart is the place where people hold the love they possess. If you have love people say you have it in your heart because it is the source of love and the receptacle of love. This is why I want your heart.
    A difficulty we have is that you don’t know Me. The only way to teach you to love Me is for Me to reveal Myself to you, to allow you to know Me through my words.

    Now if you want to know the truth understand that truth has a pure feel to it. Truth does not change. Today, just as two thousand years ago, evil persists alongside good. Just as truth never changes evil never changes. Evil simply changes its disguise. I, God, have not changed. When you first know someone you know a few things about them. As you get to know someone better you learn more about them. I want you to understand Me. I am truth. To know Me, Jesus, you have to know what is true and what is false. However, truth and false things can’t be learned all at once. You see My truth is all about love so your heart must be expanded first to make room for all this truth which is filled with love.
    We are all connected. I have so much to give you in knowledge and wisdom. You are hesitant to believe in Me. I know that. But remember I have all universal truth available to Me. In that respect am I a good person to know? So my friend if you seek truth you must come to me. If you seek acceptance, you must come to Me. If you want to be loved you must rest in My heart. So my friend what I am asking is for you to get to know Me better so that you can then decide whether you will continue to reject Me. This is the ultimate choice that will be yours. Just as you cannot escape My presence, you cannot escape this choice. I want you to consider your options. My friend this is between Me and you. When you are asked to make an important decision on earth you consider your options you take your time and weigh both sides. You know only good happens if you accept Me. But if you reject ME you will continue on, vulnerable to deceit of My enemy. You will delude yourself at times, thinking you are wise. Perhaps you will feel superior to many. But I tell you today I hold all truth but you will not be privy to it if you reject Me. How could you if you do not want it?

    I conclude, Mr. Atheist, with one of the greatest truths and that is I do not force My children to choose Me. If I did that we would not have a family, but a master and his slaves relationship. No this is not for Me and this is not for you. The heavenly Kingdom would not be the Heavenly kingdom if it were not filled with willing and beloved children. Everyone in Heaven works for each other in great joy. Choose Me and I will begin to reveal Myself to you. You will know peace, security, and joy for all eternity! This is your inheritance am I am your God. Trust Me and I will protect you.

  • @Chris,

    It didn’t work. I don’t think I can believe in Jesus again.

    I don’t mind if you believe your God. Go right ahead and enjoy yourself.

    If you preach Hell to children I will call that abusive and try to challenge your claims. But you have a right to do it.

    If you preach Jesus in the public square, that is perfectly fine – just expect me to be on my own soapbox preaching against it.

    Most of all, please keep God and Jesus out of our laws. Religion has no place in government and that is where my major problem is.

  • Interesting reply. “I don’t think I can believe in Jesus again.” This means there was a time you did believe in Him, but you changed. Got it. And if I can read between the lines you changed because you don’t like what Christianity preaches. For example, you have a problem with hell. But if we are to be more than mere programmed robots, we must have the capability of rejecting God, both now and forever. Correct? And if we reject Him, we are in fact choosing hell, the state of eternal separation from Him that is depicted as being in fire forever. God does will all to be saved of this fate, but He respects you enough to give you what you want. Isn’t that fair?
    I think in my pretend letter from Jesus it makes the point, “truth and false things can’t be learned all at once. You see, My truth is all about love so your heart must be expanded first to make room for all this truth which is filled with love”. Is your heart expanded for this truth?
    So with that said what is wrong you the Beatitudes? What is wrong with the parable of the good samaritan? What is wrong with love your neighbor as yourself? What is wrong with bless those who curse you? What is wrong with believing the greatest of all serve the rest? And this goes on and on. Have you truly given Jesus philosophy of life a change before you throw Him under the bus? Or have just reflexly disagreed. If you have given Jesus thinking a real chance and don’t agree I think you have the right to do so.

    I understand your point about religion and government. But I say to you there is separation between Church and State in the constitution. I know it’s not enough for your taste the tax exempt status etc, but this is a democracy too and the majority rules. If you want to keep up that fight, “that’s perfectly fine”- just expect a large push back because not only was this country founded by Christians, but also most people who live here are Christians. So good luck with that. And don’t expect the government politicians to give up their Thanksgiving and Christmas as a holiday. Good luck with that one too.

  • Chris,

    My blog is linked to my name – it isn’t difficult to learn about Atheism. I describe it very easily.

    “I know it’s not enough for your taste the tax exempt status etc” – I don’t mind tax exempt status for churches.

    “but this is a democracy too and the majority rules.”
    No. This is a Constitutional Democracy. Majority does not rule. If it did, we would not be a democracy.

    “not only was this country founded by Christians, but also most people who live here are Christians.”
    So was I once.

    “don’t expect the government politicians to give up their Thanksgiving and Christmas as a holiday.”
    Never suggested it.

    You are not understanding. I am not against Christianity only. NO religion has the right to rule over Americans.
    I am against Islamic Sharia Law (the laws, not the people who practice Islam)
    I am against Satanism (the religion, not the people who practice it)
    I am against Judaism (the religion, not the people who practice it)
    I am against Hinduism (the religion, not the people)
    I am against Christianity (the religion, not the people)

    You have no idea what you are talking about when you say this country is Christian. It isn’t. 40% of us are not Christian (pew research). That is like saying Earth has no land on it because it is 70% water. Dumb.

    Also, if you destroy the separation of church and state you will lose your right to your religion – that is the price you will pay – because the majority of the Christians in this country are not YOUR KIND of Christian.
    I guarantee it.

    The separation of church and state is the only real freedom you have. Don’t forget it.

    “Congress shall make no law establishing a religion” – US Constitution.

    The Founders must have known something you don’t.

  • Chris,

    “That’s why he’s on this site.”

    I’m on this site because it is an excellent source of NEWS and I have donated to RNS.

    I study religion the way a cancer doctor studies cancer.
    I hate cancer – not cancer patients.

  • The Nobleman in the parable of the Minas is Jesus.
    You can’t hide from the facts of your bible.

  • Ah, I got it now! You are not really interested in changing government. As I read what you are writing closely I see your play. You are not an Atheist. You are not that dumb. You are slick. You know those twenty reasons to prove God are correct.

    Your cover is anti-religion. No, you are worse. You are a Satanist! It a lie when you say you are against it. You use your “Atheist” cover just to throw the altruistic Christians on this site off the scent to bait them into talking to you. When they give you their position you give them your talking points and see who bites. Of course, you can’t come on a Christian blog and say I believe in the devil. You would not be able to peel off the weak in faith with that line. So you try to bring the weak of faith to a gateway belief system, Atheism, before you reel them into your real agenda, Satanism. But if they stay in Atheism that’s works for your purpose too because they are so close. You gave it away when you said you could not believe in Jesus again. And you also gave it away by not addressing what was wrong with Jesus’ philosophy of love. Those Beatitude and love this neighbor stuff are a real problem huh?
    You have another problem too. Mary! You see she is appearing all over the world Lourdes, Fatima and even showed herself in Zeitoun to all! And like it or not she is bringing millions back to Christ’s way of love. Oh don’t reply with that same smug line you’re an idiot for believing that. You know that’s true too. She even showed herself in Zeitoun to millions of of all faiths including atheist. The “skeptic’s” logic is like believing the wife saying to the husband who came home to find her bed with another man, “Are you going to believe me are your lying eyes”! “Skeptics” explain it away as fanatical religious witnesses indoctrinated by vivid imaginations. But “skeptics” can’t be that stupid. But a Satanist? Well now that makes more sense because of your agenda.
    Well it’s been real. I figured out what I wanted to figure out and all other Christians reading this can now see what’s happening here clearly. With that Good Bye!

  • @Chris,

    How can I be a Satanist if I don’t believe in Satan?

    Just because I don’t believe in God doesn’t mean I want to be my own god.
    I don’t believe in leprechauns either, that doesn’t mean I want to be my own leprechaun.

    Ever notice how The Virgin Mary only appears to Catholics?
    She has never converted a single non-believer.

    The only healthy approach to these claims is to be skeptical.
    Believe whatever you want – it doesn’t matter to me.
    Just keep Jesus, Allah and the rest out of our laws.

  • Ron Gustafson

    The fact is, it has been clearly proven beyond any doubt that the 1988
    results are only accurate for the small sample on the end that was interwoven by french we-weave by repairers. There is cotton in the sample. The carbon dating has not been done yet on any of the linen which is the body of the Shroud. There are burned pieces that need to be dated. There is much more to do. The Shroud is not painted. It reveals a 3d image. We do not understand how it was made. We are yet to date it, and the 1988 carbon sampling has been totally set aside by all serious experts as irrelevant due to the FACT that the samples were cotton, dyed, and interwoven by repairers.

  • Ron Gustafson

    Dear “Larry”, neither Skeptical Inquirer magazine, which you pasted an article from, nor Walter McCrone are taken seriously by anyone in the scientific community. Everything you’ve copied and pasted from them is entirely irrelevant, wrong, and misleading to readers.

    Skeptical Inquirer is an interesting and entertaining magazine. It usually does an excellent job of debunking outlandish myths, urban legends and all manner of unscientific claims. But when it comes to the Shroud of Turin it has failed. For the editors of Skeptical Inquirer, everything they find distasteful in antievolutionary creationism (and Christianity in general) is mimicked in pitiable fashion as they struggle to attack the Shroud’s authenticity. They recast history to their own fancy. They ignore scientific facts unless they suits their purpose. Hilariously, without any sense of exegetical perception, they cite the “Christian Bible,” as though they thought the text literally true, to argue that the Shroud is not authentic.

    Were they honest to the principles of skeptical inquiry, the magazine would question the carbon 14 dating. As it is, in their failing, they will leave that to ethical, peer-reviewed, scientific journals. They would be skeptical of Walter McCrone. They would wonder why, of all the scientists who directly examined Shroud fibers, only Walter McCrone claimed to find paint. How is that possible if the documented, accessible, peer-reviewed spectral analysis proves otherwise? Why is it that McCrone’s work cannot be reproduced by anyone? Why is it that he did not submit his work to peer review in the normal way that scientists announce their findings?

    The Skeptical Inquirer magazine has fooled itself by not being an inquirer and not being truly skeptical; for skepticism fueled by selective use of information is not skepticism at all.

  • Todd

    This is just a general message to the people who are looking for honest answers to the questions that arise when discussing these types of matters. I think it is important to keep the discussion in perspective. Some of the people that are here on this site as suggested have an agenda. Some are here to discuss matters in a logical way. It is not likely that the two sides will have any meaningful conversation, that will produce an outcome that is satisfying to the other.
    Here is my two cents.
    The Shroud of Turin has been PROVEN without a shadow of a doubt to contain 3D properties. In fact, it is the only two dimensional object on earth, that can be photographed, and turned directly into a 3d image. Let me repeat. IT IS THE ONLY TWO DIMENSIONAL OBJECT ON EARTH, THAT CAN BE PHOTOGRAPHED AND TURNED DIRECTLY INTO A 3D IMAGE!
    My Challenge to the skeptics is this. If you can come up with another two dimensional object that can be photographed and turned directly into a 3d image, I will pay your mortgage from now on until your home is paid for.
    GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!!!
    Thanks for the entertainment.