October 21, 2014

Archbishop Chaput ‘disturbed’ by Vatican synod debate, says ‘confusion is of the devil’

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Archbishop Charles J. Chaput acknowledges applause during his Mass of installation at the Cathedral Basilica of Sts. Peter and Paul in Philadelphia Sept. 8, 2011.

Archbishop Charles J. Chaput acknowledges applause during his Mass of installation at the Cathedral Basilica of Sts. Peter and Paul in Philadelphia Sept. 8, 2011.

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NEW YORK (RNS) “I was very disturbed by what happened” at the Vatican's family synod, Archbishop Charles Chaput said. “I think confusion is of the devil, and I think the public image that came across was one of confusion.”

  • Dane

    As usual, Chaput is just a man blaming his problems on a “devil” instead of facing them and taking responsibility for them himself. Catholicism is a giant con too.

  • Garson Abuita

    The synod participants’ discussion was too freewheeling and invited “confusion.” But it’s okay for the US bishops to use “candor” in discussing his rightwing fantasy of going off the marriage grid. Got it.

  • joe

    Please, Pope Francis, do us all a favor and demote this guy too.

  • Frank

    This is exactly right. Wake up Christians!

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  • Fran

    Today’s definition of the Catholic Church: “Complete Compounded Confusion”.

  • DCN

    Archbishop Chaput is “right on target.” Those first words out of the synod WERE confusing. Many Catholics, including myself, were put to the test, many in the workplace, having to try to explain to secular co-workers what all of this meant.

    Thank The Lord for holy men such as Archbishop Chaput, Cardinal Burke and Cardinal Pell. Hopefully they will all be in the running next time around…

  • Chaput is an Arch-Bigot.

    “Chaput’s lecture…traditional believers are… akin to that of the ancient Israelites in Babylon.”

    What humility!
    The Archbishop calls for another Yahweh Genocidal solution? Does he even understand what he is invoking with the Babylonian thing!?

    “Chaput…blasted gay activists…said the portrayals of traditional believers as homophobic is dishonest and evil.”

    This Preening Peacock BIGOT defends the Pope’s Boston Pedophile Network Kingpin, Bernie Law – yet he can identify evil…as long as it is ELSEWHERE.

    “We also need to thank God for the gift of this present, difficult moment,”

    translation:
    ‘Gays are evil! But thank you, Jesus, for giving them to us to destroy – it is purifying.
    Thanks, Peacock, for showing the rest of us how non-homophobic you Catholic preachers are!

    “Because conflict always does two things: It purifies the church, and it clarifies the character of the enemies who hate her.”

    What a Myopic Dunderhead.
    After trying to say the Catholics are not homophobes – he indulges in a false dichotomy which places homosexuals as being of poor character simply because they object to the Church.

    Does it occur to this superstitious dummy that victims of church violence might have a valid point?

    And might that point be staring right back at him at the tip of his DUNCE HAT in his mirror? Never have I seen such uneducated dangerous fools as these Bishops. They make Congress look like the Academy of Science!

  • The only “confusion” here is generated by a Church that historically, and consistently, has pitched fits and kicked and screamed in the face of cold, harsh reality.

    This is the Church that harassed and imprisoned Galileo Galilei, merely because he insolently confirmed that the earth and other planets revolved around the sun, rather than the Church’s teaching that the sun and other planets revolved around the earth.

    The world we live in is changing. People have actually figured out that gays are human beings, too. But the Church can’t or won’t handle that. It’s griping and moaning about it, even when some of its own hierarchs have shown a willingness to accept that reality.

    The Church has a choice, as it always has: Either to accept reality, whatever that might be, or to throw tantrums and refuse to accept what exists. In the past it chose the latter, very juvenile, path, and ruined uncountable lives in the process. Maybe it’s time for a better, more mature, approach to life.

    Do the bishops have the courage to grow up and act like adults? They had a chance to in this synod, but refused it. I expect they will continue screeching and howling about things they dislike. Quick, someone diaper them and stick pacifiers in their mouths before they wail and weep any more. Aw, the poor little things … !

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  • St Ignatius said that strong believers are tempted not by evil, but by good, and taking it to extremes. Virtue, morality, and reverence for marriage are all good things. But too many Catholics have allowed themselves to get whipped up into a frenzy of confusion.

    I don’t feel confused at all. I feel heartened that I can offer a welcome to sinners and not worry some True Believer is going to report me to a priest or a bishop.

  • Reginald

    Archbishop Chaput, at least, is speaking with clarity and the same authority that brought me to the Catholic Church:

    “None of us are welcomed on our own terms in the church. We are welcomed on Jesus’ terms,” he said. “That’s what it means to be a Christian. You submit yourself to Jesus and his teaching. You don’t re-create your own body of spirituality.”

    People keep forgetting this. The Church is NOT about conforming to the world. The world rather needs to conform to the Church’s teachings. For this to happen the Church needs to speak out and speak out without the ambiguity we’ve had for the past 50 or so years.

  • Bob Warsham

    As in France, the EU and other countries throughout the world, separate civil and religious ceremonies. Civil first to legalize the intent, religious affirmation if the couple so desire it.

  • Mike

    The author is correct in that there are always forces that lead to the creation of doubt when it comes to God and what God has revealed in His Word. (And yes, I know for many who believe the Bible is just a bronze age book of myth this will be irrelevant.) For those who profess to have faith in Christ it is time to give serious consideration to who and what will give credence to in the formation of belief in regard to human sexuality.

    Unfortunately I have little confidence in the Roman Church over the long run to maintain congruence with Scripture on this issue for several reasons:
    1. For centuries the Roman Church has been concerned with the preservation of its institutional power and riches and not just the proclamation of God’s truth, in some periods more concerned. The more society defines anti-homosexuality as bigoted, the more a price will be paid in loss of power and riches. I am not sure the RC church is willing to pay that price.
    2. I am not sure that postmodern philosophy and theology has not invaded the Vatican. The growing assumption that you really can’t know much of anything in religious matters coupled with the resistance to any grand narrative/truth is the grand lie of the 21st century and I suspect based on some statements by church leaders they are buying into it.
    3. The church is set up for human opinion to trump Scripture going all the way back to the early periods of the church through the present with the gradual evolution to equating “church councils” and the “papacy” as having the authority to define doctrine alongside of Scripture (and many would argue over Scripture) with three sources for doctrine. So when the Pope calls for tolerance of homosexual behavior advocating for the “postives” and ignoring the “negatives” in the relationship – he has the authority to do so as he is not bound to Scripture alone.

    This is not the first time the church had to face the issue of truth vs power/money. In the 1500s the Reformers called for a clearer understanding of grace and justification that would have cost the church the argument for the lucrative policy of selling indulgences. The church fought tooth and nail against the Biblical principle that Christ alone has done all needed for salvation and needs only be received in faith, that good works do not contribute to salvation but proceed from it. I suspect in the 21st century the R.C. church will move to accept homosexual relationships though it may lead to another split like it did in the 1500s.

  • Mike

    What if it is true:

    That there is a creator?

    That humanity is in rebellion against the creator?

    That human rebellion seeks to elevate the creature (the human) to the place of God?

    In such a case, would it not be reasonable to conclude the human society and culture would advocate for values that are contrary to the values of the Creator and as the church is aligned with the creator, the church and society would necessarily conflict.

    And what you define as “reality” is really just another human opinion or preference. If you don’t understand that you can start with the following:

    Nietsche, Wittgenstein, Thomas Kuhn, Gadamer, Lyotard, Fukiyama, and Foucault.

    IN the end it boils down to a clash of faith and who is God. Either the Creator is God or there is no Creator and I/We are god.

  • Mike

    The growing use of the term “homophobe” is a splendid example of a rhetorical language game that demonstrates how people influence others to buy off into their worldview through the use of powerful and exclusive linguistic terms and structures.

    Because one does not agree with a behavior does not make one “phobic”.

    But in the end all worldviews are built on assumptions and beliefs, even so called empirical science (Thomas Kuhn) operates with an assumed paradigm.

    So the real question is in a pluralistic society where many people hold conflicting views and values who gets to decide which are accepted in a modern society and whose are excluded. Foucault would explain that it will boil down to who can wield language in such a way to exploit and gain power over others through the shaping of civic discourse.

    And so immediately upon hearing that which opposes one’s values/beliefs, those who do not believe in absolute truth will default to the only tool for power left to them: language. Strong terms and dehumanizing descriptions of opponents will come into play to invalidate that which is “other” usually with attacks on the person because is assumed that someone who holds a view that challenges the view of the masses must because they are in the minority somehow be “stupid”.

    Perhaps a review of Jose Ortega Y. Gasset’s “Revolt of the Masses” would be beneficial as we enter the 21st century along with a serious consideration of how Orwell discusses the role of “truth speak” in society.

  • Mike

    Is God’s welcome of sinners the same as the contemporary view in pluralism of tolerance. That it doesn’t matter what one believes or how one behaves?

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  • How insulting to those Israelites. He may as well say that they are akin to being sent to the ovens Hitler, oh wait I cant., because Hitler and the Catholic Church were BFF’s in his time!!!!

    Chaput’s lecture, titled “Strangers in a Strange Land,” focused on the theme that traditional believers are experiencing an internal exile akin to that of the ancient Israelites in Babylon

  • Mike’s comment is a misrepresentation of Khun, who wrote about pursuit of ever better understandings of the world, accomplished through paradigm shifts in scientific practice. Khun is a cultural-evolutionary theorist who recognizes science as the most effective social practice to understand and test reality.

    Science is an evolving social machine and not a simple addition equation. Kuhn’s works have been selectively quoted by fundamentalists, creating straw-man arguments about pluralism and cultural relativism. This developed because certain words Khun uses in his text have been loaded by the religious right to have negative emotional weight or absolute implications (when Khun uses them neutrally to express an idea English does not yet have an adequate linguistic framework for) causing readers with certain worldviews to react in instinctive, defensive or jubilant and mocking ways instead of thoughtfully considering the text as a whole.

    Khun recognizes and refutes these misrepresentations in his afterward of Scientific Revolutions, though he does not understand how some could so obviously misquote him. He says Science is quite different from the collective story we tell about it, but that doesn’t mean we throw it out the window.

    Submitting ourselves and those we love to the “truth speak”, labeling and fear mongering some religious leaders advocate is not an adequate response to our discomfort over cultural change. That these leaders are simply carrying out a pre-determined narrative is comprehensible. That changing the dialogue when 2,000 years of history mandates they sing the same tune also makes sense. But those facts do not deprive observers from making moral and social observations about those leaders behavior and influence, especially because so many submit (at least in word, if not deed) to that authority… if anything it mandates we critically analyze and respond.

  • tanya

    I admire Archbishop Chaput for his integrity and humility. The Church is being purified and these are hard times for those who are trying to be faithful to the teachings handed down for us as a treasure of great worth. The last line- “We also need to thank God for the gift of this present, difficult moment,” Chaput said. “Because conflict always does two things: It purifies the church, and it clarifies the character of the enemies who hate her.” is right on the mark. Praise be to God.

  • Laurie

    Thankfully someone is telling it like it is. Archbishop Chaput, you are so right. This synod was a mighty spiritual warfare exhibition and I am sure that it was an abundance of prayer petition to heaven that overcame the enemy this time. However, we can’t let guard down. We must pray and fast for the final outcome because the enemy will not give up. St. John Paul II, pray for us! Blessed Paul VI, Pray for us!

  • Mike, being scientifically / skeptically minded does not mean that person automatically elevates themselves to god-status. In fact, skeptics like to study the fallacies and short-comings of human perceptions. And any agnostic or atheist worth their salt understands the human drive to dedicate oneself to something more than “little ol’ me”. We are a communal species. It is in our DNA and our psychological drives if not reflected in our economic structures. Being aware of this, we can work towards more just societies, not just settle for a fetish of suffering. G-d is greater than the Western, Christian sketch. Our understanding of G-d is evolving, even if G-d is changeless. G-d endures beyond the survival or extinction of the Catholic Church, Mike. And those who follow G-d endure as well. Hold fast to that.

  • Marggie

    Right on! Finally a voice of reason.

  • Mike

    Lauren is correct in the statement regarding Kuhn’s view of progressive science. I certainly don’t advocate for throwing out science and empirical research.

    That said, his observation of the role of paradigm in the formation of any explanatory system is yet valid including in the discussion of the role of science. While the scientific method may in many people’s, including Kuhn’s, be the best or only thing going for human knowledge, it is yet based on underlying beliefs and assumptions. It is hardly objective.

    The only point I am making is that we have a world full of belief systems all built on particular beliefs and assumptions which cannot be validated externally by any human ability to prove or disprove what is absolutely true. Peter Watson discusses this exact point in the conclusion to his survey of Modern History.

    So once again the question boils down to “who” gets to make the ultimate judgments in society? Who holds the power to do so? Whose values get to trump other people’s values? What culture is to be considered superior?

    Labeling, fear mongering, and exclusionary claims seem to be the pattern on both the far right and the far left. I have a friend who is homosexual and he is hardly “evil”. But that said, I have religious friends who believe God does not support homosexual behavior. I would have a hard time because I know them as persons in calling them a “bigot”. One person operates from one belief and value system. Another person operates from a different one. And human reason is powerless to prove one is better than another. We can argue about consequences or pragmatics but these too (what we consider desirable outcomes) is based on preexisting values and assumptions.

    When it comes to methodology for social engagement, I personally don’t see a great deal of tolerance in those who argue for tolerance. All sides seem to have their own unprovable beliefs and assumptions, an assumption that their views are better than the contrary, and a desire to impose some form of power structure to shape the culture to their views. The real question is about imposition of power and control, not about what is right or wrong.

  • Mike

    So I hear some assumptions in your response here:

    1. human perception is limited
    2. human existence is communal in form by nature and not by choice
    3. human society can evolve in to more just forms
    4. Western Christian is incomplete or inadequate in its explanation of God
    5. God is unchanging.
    6. People can follow God, perhaps even know God.

    And I am curious if you are Jewish for these are very parallel to what a Jewish Rabbi friend of mine has shared with me regarding his personal theology.

  • It seems that for some prelates the synod has been the occasion for the “theological pus” to ooze forth out of a few prelates, caused by their heterodoxical theology with which they have infected themselves. The only salutary antibiotic medicine as a cure for these few prelates is a generous and
    a plentiful dose of orthodox theology and spirituality

  • Mike

    For sake of understanding,these are the key points Kuhn makes

    1. Science does not change slowly. It has periods in which methods are fairly stable which are changed by radical revolution.
    2. During the normal periods methods are not as independent nor objective as they may appear since they are based on agreed upon assumptions and shaped by some measure of expected outcome.
    3. During normal periods scientific methods operate according to a “paradigm” that is an interconnected set of assumptons and beliefs that are shared by a community which sets an agenda for contemporary research.
    4. In normal periods, research reinforces teh paradigm but from time to time these paradigms are overthrown by an intellectual revolution.
    5. Truth is subjective – the idea of science leading to absolute truth is questionable.
    6. Human society does not need absolute truth to survive.
    7. It is impossible for science to investigate the human environment wihtout a paradigm.
    8. Science is about the evolution of ideas in response to the world we encounter.
    9. There is no evidence that ideas (including scientific ones) are evolving toward some form of ultimate truth nor is there evidence humanity is evolving toward some kind of ultimate being.
    10. #9 does not preclude the impossibility of growth than can enhance human progress and survivability within its environment.

  • Vivat Cor Jesu

    God bless Archbishop Chaput for speaking the truth. As usual the “tolerant” lefties comenting here resort to personal attacks to try to silence the truth of Jesus’ church. There is much confusion from the novelties of the interim relatio – which appears to have been prepared prior to the synod discussions it purported to reflect – and confusion/disorder is from the devil. Those who refuse to acknowledge a malevolent presence abroad in the world, deny catholic doctrine, the specific words of Jesus and leave themselves defenseless against the attacks of the devil.

    Thank you Archbishop Chaput for speaking the truth boldly. It is not “your truth” as so many modern day relativists are fond of reciting but The Truth, as taught by the magisterium of the church. Many reject truth as many former followers rejected Christ when he said in John 6, “Unless you eat of the flesh of the son of man you shall not have life within you”. May the Father draw many of the los of our society and world to the Truth of Jesus Christ. Dominus Vobiscum!

  • Nick

    I thank the Archbishop for his bravery in upholding God’s principles. We must obey God and not men.
    God is the author of clarity, order, and peace (1 Corinthians 14:33). The enemy does the opposite.
    The seeds of confusion that are being sowed by the Vatican these days will lead to a bitter harvest. It’s enabling, promoting, and empowering sin and evil.
    God bless the Archbishop and all he stands for!

  • Gabriel

    Pope Francis is not changing Church teaching, it is the media which is saying that he’s trying to change Church teaching.

  • magrrie

    PsiCop I think you need a crash course in history. In Galileo’s day the conventional astronomy of his day posited a moving earth orbiting around the sun as the other planets did which by the way was viciously attacked by Protestants for its alleged opposition to Scripture. Galileo made some important astronomical observations with his telescope that undermined aspects of the geocentric system. He saw mountains on the moon thus showing that heavenly bodies were not perfect spheres. He also discovered four moons orbiting Jupiter etc…His work was initially welcomed by the Church with fellow Jesuit astronomers confirming his discoveries. Galileo was also received and shown favor by many illustrious cardinals, prelates and princes of the city. Everything seemed to be in his favor and the Church saw nothing wrong with him presenting and using it as a hypothetical system since he lacked adequate evidence to support his belief. So he was free to teach his belief as long as he stated it was a hypothesis. What got Galileo into trouble was his insistence on the literal truth of the Copernican system until persuasive evidence could prove otherwise. He refused to compromise and went as far as to suggest that apparent scriptural verses to the contrary had to be reinterpreted.
    So while Galileo was convinced he had the truth he had no proof and while many influential churchmen believed he might be right they had to wait for more proof. Galileo stubborn and proud did not want to wait and that is what got him into trouble.
    So it’s unfair to picture him as an innocent victim. Part of the blame lies with Galileo’s refusal to compromise. He could have accepted to teach his idea as a theory until proven to be true so it was his insistence on the literal truth that cause the difficulty. The Church was also sensitive to Protestant charges that it did not pay proper regard to the Bible so it hesitated to permit the suggestion that the literal meaning of Scripture—which at times appeared to imply a motionless earth—be set aside to accommodate an unproven scientific theory.
    That is why Galileo was ordered to desist from publishing on Copernicanism until his theory could be proven. This does not make the Church hostile to science.
    Other comments made by you can be challenged and proven wrong but as they say you can’t argue with a fool.

  • Joseph

    Hey atheist, Please, stop vomiting all over yourself! The stench of your hatred needs to be cleared from this site!

  • Judy

    Corey, yours is a truly idiotic response made by someone who obviously has studied the role of the Roman Catholic Church during WWII with all the shallowness of a sidewalk puddle. Do some actual research before your fingers begin typing such drivel.

  • JuneAnnette

    The mixed message regarding homosexuality Roman Catholicism conveys through her religious rulers, theologians and apologists is deceitful and intentionally ambiguous. Ask two Catholics what the official teaching of their “church” is on this matter and you will invariably get two different answers. There is no consensus amongst priests, bishops and cardinals and so the confusion emanates from the hierarchy themselves. And yet the Bishops are the official voice in the RC “church” in matters of faith and morals? ? The so-called “princes of the church” have tolerated, sanctioned and embraced homosexuality in their cloistered ecclesiastical community, and thus are themselves at variance with their own teaching as it is defined in the Catechism. Their tolerance of homosexual priests/bishops in their own ranks is tantamount to both teaching and condoning “evil actions”! Those priests who have exposed the homosexual sub-culture have been silenced, ostracized, marginalized and demonized, and some even excommunicated.
    Bob Hoatson, James Haley, Matthew Despard and others could be cited.
    Without question the Bible defines the practice of homosexuality as sin and upon it pronounces an unqualified censure.
    I refer you to Romans 1:18, 24, 26-27
    Christians are obliged to submit to the rule and authority of God’s Word in their lives, as it is the ultimate authority in matters of faith and morals.. Those who have fallen prey to a flawed theology cloaked under a mantle of love that brazenly ignores sin and ultimately seeks to eliminate any distinction between good or evil, right or wrong, have embraced a lie and have been horribly deceived.
    I have endeavored by God’s grace to speak the truth in love! (Eph. 4:15)
    JuneAnnette, Ralph’s wife . . a former Roman Catholic converted to Christ

  • Judy

    Mike, even the pope cannot change Church doctrine. He may choose to ignore it or try to dance around it, but he cannot change it. The moment that he makes any pronouncement ex cathedra which contradicts Church doctrine, Catholics are no longer bound by his authority. This papacy has become a waiting game. We have outlasted other heresies, including Protestantism, which has split into 30,000 denominations worldwide. Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI may be correct that we will see a smaller, more orthodox Church arise. The gates of hell will not prevail against even a remnant Church.

  • Judy

    Thank you for your much-needed clarification. I may have to cut, paste, and save it, as this exact error (caused by shabby, public-school textbook education) frequently arises online.

  • pete

    Maybe the Pope will send Burke and Chaput to a monastery in South America
    before coming to the USA next September. These two guys along with Benedict and John Paul the second have spent their lives trying to take the church back to middle ages,137

  • Judy

    You must be speaking to some poorly catechized Catholics (a real problem since the sixties). The official position of the Catholic Church is that the homosexual inclination in and of itself is not sinful (any more than a tendency towards gluttony or alcoholism is sinful), but homosexual acts (and indeed all sexual acts outside of marriage) are sinful.

  • Ge0ffrey

    There are a lot of Christophobes posting comments here today, IMHO.

    God bless Archbishop Chaput!

  • Judy

    Discontinuing certifying civil marriages does not deny Church doctrine.

  • Judy

    God Bless Archbishop Chaput!

  • Rose

    Apparently a definition of one.

  • JuneAnnette

    The burning question Catholics must ask themselves: Is homosexuality simply another orientation as some RC priests/bishops maintain? ? OR . .
    Homosexuality and Sin: a summary of Catholic teaching by Ronald L. Conte Jr., Roman Catholic theologian / January 8, 2007
    EXCERPT:
    (start quote) “6. The claim that the homosexual orientation is a natural condition. This claim is heretical because it denies the intrinsic moral disorder of the homosexual orientation and because it denies that the homosexual orientation is a result of the sins of individuals and of society. In truth, God created all that is truly natural. The homosexual orientation is contrary to the will of God and therefore it cannot be a part of nature as created by God. By no means could God have created anything which is intrinsically evil. Therefore, it is contrary to the Catholic faith to claim that the homosexual orientation is merely a result of nature or genetics or ‘normal’ human psychological development, as if sin were in no way involved as part of the cause of something which is intrinsically immoral.” (end quote)
    Though on biblical grounds I have concluded long ago that Roman Catholicism is not Christ’s Church, I do believe Roman Catholics will find Mr. Conte’s article a compelling read . . both disturbing and instructive.
    ******Note from the author:
    “I am a straight single Catholic man, who believes and practices the Catholic faith, including Catholic teaching on sexuality. I am not biased or
    prejudiced against homosexuals. I hope that such persons will, through the grace of God, repent from their sins and avail themselves of God’s mercy.”

  • taad

    Pope Benedict called it years ago. “A Dictatorship of Relativism”. I have not changed my beliefs. I believe all the Catholic Church has taught for 2000 years. Yet now it is as if I am wrong, 2000 years of popes and bishops, and saints are wrong. And it’s if we are now enlightened, that we have discovered something new. So the Catholic Church was not the real church for the past 2000 years? You can’t say it was right then and it is right now. It is one or the other, not both. It defies logic, and reason to do so.

  • BJ

    don’t blame Chaput and the Catholic church if you don’t like the rules…. take it up with GOD …. the Catholic church simply doesn’t bend to the whims of generations
    …. the practice of abnormal sexual activity is contrary to the laws of God and nature… accept it for the truth that it is … just like adultery,incest,gossip,lying,etc.etc. it’s not ‘phobic’…. it’s the Laws of God…. live with it or ….. belong to the other guy

  • JP

    No, not back to the Middle Ages, but back to Christ Himself.

  • JuneAnnette

    Then there’s the matter of homosexual priests . . again mixed messages coming from Roman Catholic theologians, clergy and popes? ?

    Article: Pope,(Benedict) in book, says homosexuality incompatible with priesthood / Nov. 24, 2012 / Source: CNS – Catholic News Service
    From the article:
    In his new book, Pope Benedict XVI strongly reaffirmed church teaching that homosexual acts are “disordered” and said homosexuality itself is “incompatible” with the priesthood.
    “Homosexuality is incompatible with the priestly vocation. Otherwise, celibacy itself would lose its meaning as a renunciation. It would be extremely dangerous if celibacy became a sort of pretext for bringing people into the priesthood who don’t want to get married anyway,” the pope said.
    The pope cited a 2005 Vatican document that drew a sharp line against priestly ordination of homosexuals. He said the document emphasized that homosexual candidates cannot become priests because their sexual orientation interferes with “the proper sense of paternity” that belongs to the priesthood. (end quote)
    A Vatican commentator & cleric, Monsignor Tony Anatrella argued that theologically, homosexual priests cannot effectively incarnate either the “spousal bond” between God and the Church, or “spiritual paternity.”
    “He must, in principle, be suitable for marriage and able to exercise fatherhood over his children,” wrote Monsignor Anatrella. Because the priest acts in the “person of Christ,” Anatrella said that the Church calls only “men mature in their masculine identity.” .

    YET . . .
    Pope Francis says he won’t ‘judge’ gay priests / July 29, 2013 / Source: USA Today
    The two positions are antithetical the one to the other and represent the inconsistent position one pope has from the other on a matter of no small significance
    The FACT remains there are a significant number of priests/bishops, who are homosexual.
    *Dean Hoge is one of the most respected researchers on the subject of the priesthood . . . . In a 2001 survey Hoge found that 55 percent of priests said that there clearly or probably was a homosexual subculture among priests. Donald Cozzens, author of the 2000 book “The Changing Face of the Priesthood,” estimates 50 percent of all Catholic priests are homosexual. Psychotherapist Richard Sipe, a former Catholic priest who has written and spoken widely on the priesthood, says 15 percent of homosexual priests are sexually active. If all homosexual clergy were to leave the U.S. Catholic Church now, the church would lose one-third of its bishops as well.

    *Dean R. Hoge (2006) Experiences of Priests Ordained Five to Nine Years. Washington D.C.: National Catholic Education Association.
    **Donald Cozzens (2000) The Changing Face of the Priesthood. (2002) Sacred Silence: Denial and the Crisis in the Church. (2004) Faith That Dares to Speak. Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press.

    According to a news story in the New York Times (Sept. 15, 2005), Fr. Thomas Reese, S.J., the former Editor-in-chief of America, said that “with the shortage of priests, the church can hardly afford to dismiss gay seminarians.”

    What kind of message does this send to the “faithful” ? ? As the Apostle Peter said: “we ought to obey God, rather than men.” Acts 5:29 Christians are not obliged to sanction and/or approve conduct which is unarguably inconsistent with one who professes Christ, nor are they obliged to follow religious rulers who err, but are to heed the command of the Lord Jesus Christ as it is found in Rev. 18:4: “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

  • BJ

    Galileo house arrest…in a palace, hardly ‘imprisoned’, ….. the practice of homosexuality causes physical and mental health diseases and costs society big time + brings the species to eventual extinction and as in Greece/Rome preceeds the fall of empire( see USA today!) … + abnormal sexual practice parodies the plan of God…. who d’ya think is behind that? …. but of course you have to accept God and reject human pride and that’s a non starter for too many

  • William

    ‘because Hitler and the Catholic Church were BFF’s in his time!!!!’

    Only an ignorant Klanish bigot would say that. Many people in the Catholic Church opposed Hitler and NAZI policies: including the Pope.

  • Maryanne

    Dear Dane, I pity you! You do not have problem with the Church, your problem is with Jesus! These are the teachings of God.

  • Maryanne

    Wow learn history before you open your mouth and show your true ignorance.

    Your problem is not with the church but with Jesus. Read the Bible. Read the Word of God and then tell JESUS that he is wrong!

  • Fred

    Lauren- Two things: first, most folks who self-identify as “scientifically/skeptically” minded certainly seem to act as if they know more than everyone else around them (at least semi “god status”); second, is something wrong with the “o” button on your keyboard because you seem to be missing a few in your comments? They appear to be replaced by a “-“.

  • Ron

    Archbishop Chaput is exactly right. The Devil has sowed confusion at the Synod. “On this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will never prevail against it.” Catholicism was founded by Jesus and the real cons are those who refuse to acknowledge this.

  • Ron

    Please God make Archbishop Chaput our next Pope!

  • Ron

    Let’s be ‘mature’ and accept sin? Never.

  • sharon

    Your remark was excellent!!!!!! The Church can not and should not bend the rules. That what’s wrong with society. In the US all these judges who think they are gods are changing the rules of society. Changing the fabric of our country. It is being so destroyed the Constitution was founded on christian principals. Evil just whittles away at the foundation. The church has to be firm in it’s belief systems, truths do not change. I’m so happy we have Bishops who will speak out .Chaput and Burke are very holy men and very articulate in their message. Pope Francis jokes too much and it sends a wrong message. Stand up for truth and speak it. Thank God we have these Bishops and Cardinals who care about our souls. We do not have to accept the disordered conduct of those who choose to live a sinful life. They can behave like the rest of us have to. God is the author of holiness, we choose to follow the rules and the rules are the stairway to heaven. Keep climbing those who love the church and all she teaches. God fearing people stick together and pray always for the souls of the mixed up people who can’t stand the rules of a holy life!!!!!!

  • Right on!

  • Who is the one screeching and howling about the things they dislike???? Jesus was here way before you or any that think like you were even born. It was wrong then and it is wrong now, whether you like it or not. Those who believe in what our Lord came to teach us are not going to roll over and play dead. The sexual revolution has practically ruined the family. Wake up!!!!

  • sharon

    BJ it was you comment I was backing up so thank you and keep the faith!!!!!!!

  • When did you not welcome sinners?? Every time we go to church we are all welcomed and we are all sinners… Nothing new. It is not acknowledging sinfulness that is being promoted here. Sacrilege is being committed so much now or is the next change the Eucharist is not really Our Lord????

  • Roy Banes

    If abiding by the laws of God, which are the laws of the Church don’t fit your lifestyle, then vamoose, see you later alligator. You are welcome to continue in the path of ol red legs..
    God help you! God is against impure acts by any one, but homosexual acts are an abhorrence to God and His Church, The Roman Catholic Church!

  • Exactly!

  • Lulabelle

    How can fascists cast out fascists ?

    Kingdoms divided.

    I don’t see any evidence on this site of anyone ‘following the teachings of Jesus’.

    Insecure buffoons talking buffoonery.

    Including Cardinal Chaputanuka Choochoo. Call the vet and give him some horse sedation, stat.

  • Vanda

    I don’t usually join internet discussions but I feel I want to add my two cents here. As a 50s – 60s Catholic school student from kindergarten through high school, I have witnessed various changes in the Catholic Church.

    During the sexual revolution coinciding somewhat with the Second Vatican Council, a major change occurred in the Church? Nuns left in droves; priests took off their collars; confusion regarding birth control; and what was the real definition of sin? What will the result of this Synod do in the coming years? Something to consider and meditate on.

    Now we have the homosexual revolution going on and what will that now do to the Church? First of all, please be aware that I have close relatives who are gay and I love them. OK, that being clear, what do I expect from the Church for them? I expect that the Church be open to them, to welcome them, to forgive them their sins, and to let them participate in the church. However, do I expect the church to sanctify Marriage for them? Certainly not!!!! Marriage is a sacrament which unites a man and woman in lawful marriage. Do you consider me a “pedestrian” or “simple-minded”? Well, let me tell you. I am your average everyday Catholic who does not forget the past, sees what has been happening to the Church, and fears for its future.

    We are also now experiencing the “green” revolution, all things ORGANIC and NATURAL. Revelation here, I do buy, as much as possible, organic and natural products. However, some participants in this group are the same people participating in the “homosexual” revolution. This is a MAJOR contradiction. Very simply put, it seems to me that a penis was made to fit into the vagina…. eventually for a seed or seeds to fertilize an egg(s)… very very simply put, yes?…. outcome, hopefully a baby to continue the human race. Natural? I think so. And yes, occasionally we need science to assist here. But since when is anal, oral or even fisting natural?????? Yeah, “fisting”, a homosexual practice I heard about recently. Let me get away from there….. I think that anal sex was named sodomy after Sodom and Gomorrah. Sodom and Gomorrah were cities mentioned in the Book of Genesis and throughout the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament and in deuterocanonical sources, as well as in the Qur’an. Modern day theorists, however, are busy rewriting the meaning of Sodom and Gomorrah to put a different slant on it so that homosexuality is seen as to not have actually been condemned, but it was indeed other practices, like inhospitality. One must really have to think about this for a while. Politics in play here????

    Now, many people have expressed their opinion that a good percentage of priests and nuns have been, were, or are homosexual. I can’t dispute the numbers not having facts before me but I do personally know a number of gays who left the convent. These gay women did not want children and loved God fervently. Isn’t possible that they were indeed called by God to a vocation, to live in a community to serve God but somehow “sex” got in the way? Are you crossing your eyes at me yet? These gals left the convent basically because the world changed; they wanted their chance to “have sex” and a meaningful “relationship”. OK, maybe they really didn’t have a vocation to begin with. The point I am making here is there is nothing wrong with homosexuals being in the religious life as long as they are practicing “celibacy” like the heterosexual religious.

    I am adding this for the sake of what some will say to back up their points: That Jesus was gay. Well, hmmm… if so, was He married? To John? But others are saying that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. LET the excavations continue… Will we ever dig up the whole story? Right now, we have the Bible….. and its various interpretations.

    Bottom line for me is: Marriage is between a man and a woman. Welcome gays to the church. Forgive those who want to come back to the church. Open an avenue for divorced Catholics to walk down the aisle again without shame. And above all, don’t make such drastic changes that will threaten the very existence of our Church.

  • Lulabelle

    Mirror, mirror on the wall…..

    The only person you are fooling sister is yourself.

    Bobby Conte ? Jesus wept.

  • sharon

    Just a note. Everyone read Locutions to the World.com. The Bl. Mother and Jesus are explaining the times we’re in and why the world is in a dire mess, destruction mode. I’m just an old grandma who wants the faith to be strong for our children and grandchildren. I’m not really that old, but old enough to remember the Latin Masses and Gregorian Chant music was a little bit of heaven on earth. Love all of you who seek the Truth!

  • JuneAnnette

    Lulabelle,

    Why don’t you take the time to read the article . . it’s available online. By the way,
    the author of the article is RONALD L. CONTE JR.

    ARTICLE: Homosexuality and Sin: a summary of Catholic teaching by Ronald L. Conte Jr., Roman Catholic theologian / January 8, 2007

  • JuneAnnette

    The baseless claim, promoted by [Australian] Justice Michael Kirby and others, that gays are just born that way, is given no support by the American Psychiatric Association. Their Fact Sheet on Sexual Orientation (2000) sums it up: “There are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality”…. Source: Fathers For Life

  • Corvus Corax

    Dane: As ingenuous as it gets! :-/

  • Corvus Corax

    There have been many and severe apostasies in years past. Shoulder on Christian Soldier! Rosary: Humility and obedience to the Holy Spirit as manifested in the One Holy Catholic Church. Have Faith! Don’t Despair!!

  • Corvus Corax

    …disingenuous! 🙂

  • marggie

    Vanda
    You are right when you say marriage is between a man and a woman. The Church is universal and welcomes all people but also expects people to live by the laws of God and approach the Eucharist while in a state of sanctifying grace that is not in mortal sin. No matter what your sexual orientation we are all called to live chaste lives. Fornication is fornication whether you are straight or gay. As for having an “open avenue for divorced Catholics to walk down the aisle again without shame” there is one it is called and ANNULMENT!
    What most don’t seem to realize is that the Church “WILL NOT” and “CANNOT” contradict the express teachings of Christ.

  • Corvus Corax

    Joe: 🙁

  • Corvus Corax

    Lol! “LIKE!”

  • Marty Dancy

    If anyone is a true christian, he must believe there is a devil who brings about an evil influence on people. The church must remain true to its teachings as they have stood all along and not change basic morals or doctrine. To change these things would nullify the church from any longer being the true church. The church still exists because it has always in the past reaffirmed doctrines and has not changed them. Archbishop Chaput is correct. I also admire Cardinal Burke. To sow confusion at the synod is the work of an evil spirit and must not be followed.

  • Corvus Corax

    Mike: “Peter you are rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.” Deny this, deny Christ! Science hasn’t caught up yet. Satan, get behind me!!

  • Marty Dancy

    Truth cannot change or it is not truth. The church’s job is the salvation of souls, not to just get members or keep people in the church if they do not adhere to the teachings of the church. Jesus said that if you love Him you will follow His commandments. Engaging in sex outside of marriage or practicing sex acts outside what the church accepts as OK causes division and confusion if you push them as right. The church is not a social club but a religion that is supposed to continue the same basic doctrines throughout time. The church is not an umbrella system for anything goes. If people believe that, then they belong in the new age movement or in a universalist church which goes right along with what liberal agendas are. If people want to stay in the church, they have to agree with the teachings of the church. If they don’t, then they can find another group that supports their ideas. That is what different denominations are for–freedom to choose what you want rather than fighting to force your opinions on the people already believing in the basic doctrines and traditions. If I found myself at odds with any teachings, I would scoot around until I found what I agreed with. I found that church in 1963. It was exactly what I wanted, the preconciliar old rite church. However, now, I don’t feel the same about the modern stuff. However, because of the fssp, I can still attend Mass the way I did in 1963 and that is fine for me.

  • Corvus Corax

    Mike: Humans are not in rebellion. Humans are caught in between being susceptible to diversion in this corporeal form. Christ the person is the remedy! Humility and Obedience are the weapons. Pray the Rosary!!

  • Corvus Corax

    f’ing awesome!!

  • Corvus Corax

    …so many errors!

  • Steve

    Fascinating how the Church seems to be tacking more in line with other faiths that are falling apart now, all from its effort to be “more welcoming.” What follows we see here, that people (always the champions of “tolerance” and “dialogue”) start demanding that the pope fire those who disagree. So it becomes the church of man rather than that of God.

    This can’t happen with the Catholic Church as it has with other churches of men, but a great deal of confusion can be sowed the more this becomes the expectation. Then it’s as the archbishop says.

  • Marty Dancy

    I would like to see all the homosexual clergy who are actually practicing those sex acts, to leave the church now. I would gladly replace them with all the traditional priests who are in different groups but are conservative and will turn the church back to what it should be–faithful to doctrine and morals. Certain agents put deviants and child molesters in the seminaries on purpose so as to destroy the church from within. There was a website called St. Sebastion’s Angels which was made up of gay priests who planned parties at beaches and all kinds of orgies. It was right on there on the computer. Well, when you get guys like that, the good men leave and the church then has all the deviants in their place. That is what caused all the child abuse against boys. It took hundreds of expensive lawsuits to turn things around because many of the bishops are probably deviants themselves. The faithful Catholics must fight this stuff and do everything in their power to get people who hate the true teachings of the church to get out rather than do the harm that they have been doing.

  • Corvus Corax

    Lulabelle = TROLL. Casting aspersions is not a cogent argument. Petty and little.

  • Marty Dancy

    Absolutely correct! Anal sex spreads bad infections and is dangerous for all people, especially those who have multiple partners. There are many bad bacteria back there and that is meant only for waste, not sex. The whole thing turns me off and in no way can I accept these practices as OK. Nature is based on procreation for future existence. Male and female is the basis for life and that is IT! Marriage must be according to the natural law and not any other way. Same sex relationships are only relationships, not marriage and they have no right to redefine marriage at all. I do not recognize any marriage as right but heterosexual marriages and that is that.

  • Corvus Corax

    JuneAnnette: Nicely said! Let me say something else, perhaps controversial; “priests” have been responsible for 90+% of the so called child sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church. What the abuse crisis really was in the church was homosexual priest predation on teenage males!! Homosexual sexual abuse. Now we’re embracing homosexuality. Please Lord…

  • Corvus Corax

    MISREPRESENTATION AND POLITICALLY CORRECT! Homosexual sexual expression is clearly in another category!

  • Marty Dancy

    Pete, you will neve get faithful Catholics to go against our consciences which were engrained in us years ago. Also, the bible tells you what the basic morals are and what is not right. Also, the middle ages was not all bad. There were some great saints at that time and anyway, I think the middle ages in some ways was better than what we have today with the internet spreading porn and the church being sullied by unfaithful imposters who are all out to destroy the peace of the believers. Well, we will fight liberals and will not give in to your wishes. If you had any maturity, you would find another church that thought like you do. I have more respect for honest people who fit in with where they are going than anti catholic “catholics” who are out to divide and destroy just like Isis.

  • Corvus Corax

    Shoulder on!

  • JMJ

    Amen and AMEN!

  • Corvus Corax

    🙂

  • Corvus Corax

    🙂

  • Shawnie5

    “Labeling, fear mongering, and exclusionary claims seem to be the pattern on both the far right and the far left.”

    But those tools’ utility only goes so far. Those who resort to them as weapons have a hard time restraining themselves as long as they produce the desired results—and eventually they cease to have much meaning. “Racist” is such an example; it’s been so overused it’s become the subject of jokes even among POC. “Bigot” is going the same way. Give it enough time and “homophobe” will be a meaningless cliche as well.

  • Shawnie5

    Thank you for clearing away the pop mythology.

  • William

    ‘rightwing fantasy’? Some type of anti Catholic term that you leaned at your latest Klan meeting?

  • WIlliam

    Max, your bigotry and ignorance is another sign of Satan.

  • WIlliam

    Lulabelle: you need mental help

  • Purified

    The Church is not being purified. The Church is being filthified by the Pope and his money loving, Christ killing Pharisees. The Pope’s refusal to do the job he got by chicanery and in order to destroy the Church is endangering the lives of all Christians and the souls of all his flock. Chaput and Burke should NOT have to carry the CROSS that the POPE should be carrying. It is the apostasy of VCII that has led us here. Chaput was recently opining that he mixes Indian worship in w/his Jesus worship. Francis and Kaspar are taking the VCII doctrines that ALL religions (which the Bible says are of the devil) have elements of God/value in them and are using THAT apostasy which Chaput goes along w/to extend goodness to sexual relations which the Bible says are of the devil. IDOLATRY – the destruction of the mass – which Francis has taken up w/a vengeance in line w/’Sts’ J23, JP2 & P6 — THAT IS THE PROBLEM! FALSE WORSHIP OF THE “NEW” MEAL TABLE MUST BE OVERTURNED OR WE WILL ALL BE Destroyed & BURN FOR ETERNITY!

  • John B. Wilson

    These clerical cross-dressers say they are “catholic” – but the way they treat and try to control others proves that they are NOT Christian.
    John B.

  • JuneAnnette

    Those priests who have exposed the homosexual sub-culture have been silenced, ostracized, marginalized and demonized and some even excommunicated..
    Bob Hoatson, James Haley, Matthew Despard and others could be cited.

  • Peter Stokes

    This Chaput is the guy who brought about the ecclesiastical demise of one of Australia’ s best loved Bishops. All because this bishop had the temerity to suggest that in a diocese with a crying need for priests that sooner or later a discussion may be needed on clerical celibacy and (God Forbid) even women’s ordination. So after accepting the bishop’s open hospitality and staying with him he sent a secret report to the Vatican condemning his host without telling him the contents of the report. Very Catholic- hardly Christian.

    And Jesus told this parable, two men went into the temple to pray, one was a prelate in purple robes who went to the altar and prayed in these words etc…etc. the other was a sinner, a homosexual man riddled with guilt who stayed at the back of the temple and prayed in these words.. Etc. Which of these men was more justified in the eyes of God.
    Wake up people. I am opposed to same sex marriage because it doesn’t represent what I believe is God’s plan for families, but I am not prepared to judge a fellow sinner of whatever stripe with whose conscience I am not familiar.

  • @Joseph,

    Are you talking to me? I hope so.

    I have no patience with the transparent bigotry of the Archbigot Chaput and his idiotic hats and gowns. And it is time for people to speak up against these horrible individuals who spread mean bigotry and hate toward gays, lesbians and anybody else who won’t bow to their dogma – while people like myself try desperately to point out the inhumanity of this awful religion.

    These Abrahamic religions are profoundly dangerous, primitive and evil.

    Furthermore, you have no special privileges, if you don’t like my posts don’t read them.

  • All of this is ridiculous and dangerous.

    Jesus is out to get sinners and he can’t wait for people to start singling them out and shaming them – 2000 years of misery has been created by this absurd and INCORRECT theory of life called Christianity. Judaism and Islam are no better.

    The burden is entirely on those who would claim that homosexuality is wrong. 100% of the burden is on you.

    Yet the evidence shows that homosexuality is absolutely normal.
    It is irrefutable that at least 10% of all men and women are gay.
    It is irrefutable that at least 25% of all men and women have some degree of bisexuality.

    If you are going to tell the whopping lie
    that homosexuals are second class citizens because of their nature,
    you and your bigoted religion need to be ridiculed and laughed out of existence:

    “Kill homosexuals” – Leviticus (20:13)

    Anyone who believes in god has a lot of explaining to do. This is disgusting.

  • taad

    Chaput receives lots of mail from the lay faithful. He is a true shepherd. I know for a fact many of us Catholics, life long, from generations of Catholics, who love the Church, love the popes, try to really follow what the church has always taught, are in real fear of this pope and his close aids. Something is seriously wrong in Rome. When his best friends make fun of people praying the rosary, there is a problem. When your best friends, like Cardinal Kasper, lies and tries to put blame on a reporter for the racist comment the Cardinal himself made, there is a problem. The only one of the Apostles who lied, was Judas. Judas had a real concern for the poor, because he was stealing from them. The devil is the Father of Lies. And we have a liar for an advisor to the Pope. This is a problem.

  • @Vanda,

    “However, do I expect the church to sanctify Marriage for them? Certainly not!!!! ”

    homosexuality is not just a form of sex – it is a form of LOVE.

    Besides! If you believe in god you have to believe he created gays.
    You also know that it is unfair to deprive gay people of any human rights.
    You also have to believe that it is god’s will
    that gays be attracted to each other!

    Who are you to deprive total strangers who never hurt you
    from something you will have absolutely nothing to do with!!!!!

    Selfishness is at the core of religion. Forcing other people to follow your God’s desires is not love – it is bigotry.

  • Arthur

    The one who will stop all these arguments will very soon return to purify this earth and its people, He will leave only those pure of heart and soul to live for eternity with Him. Glory to God.

  • 1. Gays are born that way!
    2. What is it to you?
    3. The burden IS ON YOU to prove that Homosexuality is somehow bad.

    3 strikes. You’re out.

  • “Truth cannot change or it is not truth.”

    Okay, then. Never change God’s orders:

    “Homosexuals must be killed” – (LEVITICUS 20:13)

    And what does Jesus say about this? He agrees. In the Parable of the Minas Jesus makes it very clear that the Nobleman (Jesus) must return someday and at that time he will do exactly what Leviticus demands to all sinners:

    “Execute them in front of me” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    People who believe in god in the year 2014 need help
    And that is why I post this clear cut information.

    Jesus is not a healthy alternative to THINKING!
    Religion poisons everything

  • Katherine

    Come, Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of us Your faithful and enkindle in us the fire of Your love. Send forth Your Spirit and we shall be created and You shall renew the face of the earth. Let us pray: Oh God, who by the light of the Holy Spirit instructs the hearts of the faithful, grant that by the same Holy Spirit we may be made truly wise and ever rejoice in His consolations through Christ Our Lord. Amen. – Pope Saint John Paul the Great, pray for us!

  • @William,

    WHAT???
    MYbigotry?

    I don’t like Chabat, but worse than him is the idea of Christianity and the death cult he pushes.
    I’m not telling anyone to kill archbishops.

    But look at the philosophy of Chabat,

    “Kill Homosexuals” – Leviticus (20:13)
    This philosophy is defended by (and apparently supported by) Archbishop Chabat.

    The Archbishop apparently would like you to know that the only reason gays are not killed by Catholics anymore is because it has gone out of fashion to do so. He is defending the cruel, evil horrors of Jesus Christ – the biggest monster ever invented by humans:

    “Bring to me those enemies of mine and execute them in front of me.” – JESUS (luke 19:27)

    Jesus is a nightmare.

  • Cajethan

    thank you Judy for answering that hater, in it without being expressed it is not yet a sin but the acting out makes it so, catholic church has not in anyway hated human being-de imago Dei.
    what corrupts the image of God in the human is what she purifies by sound teaching.

    it is wrong when the pro gays want every doctrine to bend to their whims and caprices, and by maintaining the sound teaching the church is termed by them as homophobe…so laughable they are wrong.
    if you like to remain in your wicked hub because you don’t want God into your life, you don’t introduce confusion by your language play.

    The truth is, even if you fight the church with all verbal venoms…the foundation remains unshaken for Jesus promised His presence with the Church till the ends of the world.

    what the gays are fighting is the extinction of human species on this planet, and open challenge to God the creator of the created.

    In the end they should not forget that like terms repels while unlike terms attracts, is science trying to rule out this fact of life?

  • I am amazed at how some of the hierarchy really seriously seem to think that they have immediate access to truth, and how those they don’t agree with are “confused”. Get with the program people. Since 1973, the West has decisively turned away from a conception of truth as fixed and as Being and towards (or really back) to a conception of truth as in the form of Becoming. I’m convinced that 2000 years of a highly abstract reading of Plato is a dead letter, and that this reading is what “conservatives” are holding so tightly to.

  • In this world we need more peace
    and Archbishops, Cardinals, Popes, Imams and Ayatollahs are preaching outrageous ignorant nonsense full of bigotry and hate.

    Religion and Religious hate have no checks and balances.
    While Atheists like myself believe in the law of the land, religionists are all over the place.

    I am completely against this bigotry, violence and hatred in the bible which Archbishop is using for his analysis of homosexuality – which means he is promoting and defending these awful passages.

    And it is ridiculous that this horrible religion gets any respect.

    Just think of the gay people you know and think about what the Bible tells you to do to them! It is disgraceful! It is inhuman!

    “Kill Homosexuals” – Leviticus (20:13)

    I mean….How dare ANYONE defend this!!!???
    It is hate speech and it belongs in the stone age!

  • “Anal sex spreads bad infections…”

    Oh. So Lesbians are okay?
    I mean – what ignorance! I’m NOT a gay man and I know better than this.

    Really. This is so trivial and prurient and ignorant! Anal sex can be extremely safe and no more dangerous than most any other sexual activity. Married gay men have plenty of sex with each other and they do not die of more infections than heterosexuals!

    Typical Christian = Sex obsessed and sexually ignorant.

  • Cajethan

    And Christ addressed His disciples…be not like pharisees who wash the outer gament but inside is dirty…beware of them but follow not their actions but teaching. there is no cracked wall without a lizerd so the old Igbo proverb says, even in your church, whatever it is their are inherent challenges it faces which is yet to come to media test..

    This is a trying time we are into, do not compound the confusion circulating. the church makes effort to correct the wrongs of her faithfuls even among the ministers, for no catholic formator consciouly ordain a known homosexual unless himself is one who protects his partner in crime. Anne, i don’t exactly know if you are attacking the church because some of her clergy commits same crime it forbids? does that not tell you that a force large than they is controling His church by sound teaching? although the action of those phariseic ordained ministers have effects on the flock but Christ already told His faithful look not on their actions but teaching.

    if you are truely a Christian let your conscience if it is active follow the role model Christ than his minister whose action contradicts the teaching.

    i am in no way supporting their actions but saying Christ is the way, truth and life, following the way only but the way leads you to the truth and not human person.

  • Jack

    The smoke of Satan has entered the church, uttered by the Pope who ushered in this confusion and departure from Tradition, teachings and the foundation the church was built upon. This is the “new church”, after Vatican II a new code of canon law, new mass, new liturgy, new translations of the bible, new customs, laypersons running the asylum, all in an effort to please Man instead of God, we have reaped what we have sowed. The only solution as my family and many friends after 35 years of “novus ordo” is to find refuge in a Traditional SSPX or SSPV chapel where the true catholic church resides until a full restoration in Christ is restored, funny how the Vatican II Popes will have dialogues with every other faith but are in fear of Traditionalists.

    If we are wrong now, you were wrong for 1965 years

  • Cajethan

    if God wanted it that way, account of creation would have said, and God made them male and male and gave them power to go, increase and multiply the earth taking charge of all created things.

    the contrary is that God is so wise that he made them male and female…because of that procreative function. when will they learn to face this truth?

    or they are telling God you must accept us in our own term? invariable questioning the authority of the creator to make them male and female. Remember Sodom and Gomorrah and learn wisdom for revolt against the creator has one solution the sodom and Gomorrah replication.

  • Cajethan

    How did you come to know about the secret letter?

  • It’s interesting that being perceived as “anti-Catholic” equates with Klan membership in one of the replies to Garson’s short, sweet and to-the-point comment. That kind of vile rhetoric only reveals the fear beneath that the RC Church is losing its hold. Aren’t weddings where these guys make the big bucks? He’s just killing himself by refusing to submit to inevitability: 30 states and counting. I can see a big split coming soon, the old fuddy-duddys against the younger and more moderate and realistic crowd. He is right, though, it’s a morass of confusion, but as the Church that reviles knowledge, science and wisdom, always wishing to keep the masses stupid and compliant, it’s too bad this confusion can’t be welcomed as a signal for increased dialogue; instead he lashes out by saying the devil made them do it, which makes them sinners one and all, doers of evil, members of…the Klan.

  • Mike

    Max,

    Be honest now.
    1. Ask an orthodox rabbi – the passage in Leviticus only applies to those of the Jewish faith. The law was never given to the whole world, only to the Jewish people.
    2. Please cite an example where any major religious leader of any current Christian denomination has said “kill homosexuals” since you continue to make this straw man argument.

  • Terri

    JM, you should get on your knees and thank whoever for the opportunity to spout your vile judgment. Feel better?

  • Mike

    Interesting narrative you have there.

    nfallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17). As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope “enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter.” (http://www.catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility)

    When the Pope speaks ex cathedra he is the supreme authority by virtue of the Holy Spirit in the Roman Church.

    I also find it curious that you label all “protestants” as heretics. On what basis? I am not aware, though I am no expert, of any Bible reference that says one has to be Roman Catholic to be a Christian. The only thing I’ve ever read was Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    I have many Protestant friends of various persuasions that believe Romans 10:9. You would call them heretics.

    And curiously there are the same doctrinal opinions held by many within the Roman Church as there are in the Protestant church including process theologies, higher critical theologies, feminist theologies, liberation theologies, and so forth. Are they heretics too? Or does belonging to the Roman Church itself make you part of the “good group”? Or is it the papal bull Unam Sanctum which established by Papal authority two key points: 1. there is no salvation outside the Roman Church for anyone and 2. that to be saved on must submit to the pope? So if one is in the Roman Church and submits to the pope, does that make one part of the “good group” and if one is outside the Roman Church and/or does not submit to the pope (not sounding too good from some Roman bishops and cardinals of late) then they are a heretic even if they believe Jesus is their Lord and is risen from the dead.

    I tend to be a bit skeptical on all these matters, but it would sound to me that at least the Protestants are not all mired up by institutional authorities that appear to be designed to defend and perpetuate the earthly power and riches of a ruling elite.

  • Mike

    There is growing evidence that psychopaths and pedophiles may also be born that way.

    The point.

  • Mike

    I would argue hatred poisons, including the hatred you are exhibiting.

    I don’t hear much difference in your positions and those who advocate doing harm to homosexuals and others.

  • gil

    You can discuss the issues what people do behind closed doors but the bottom line is Pope Francis is going to support, the effort to keep religion and faith in the community/neighborhoods. He wants the church to do it’s job. So these discussion are great. The laws of the church are the laws of the church and will not be change. What has to Change is people like Archbishop Chaput who believes that his words are gods words. He has denied holy communion to people who protest a church Closeing!! Chaput should have embraced the protesters for the love they have for god and the church. Chaput should have been happy to see that Philadelphia is a city of the faithful. Instead he does everything to alienate people and distroy communities because he wants to make a proofit. Chaput is the Evil in the church, Chaput is a horrible man! Chaput is not a man of faith he is a man of greed.

  • Jimmy Chonga

    Pope Frances has NOT changed foundational Catholic Church teachings , nor can he, they are DERIVED from eternal, indelible, ineradicable and universal Truths that, are themselves, embedded within and fundamental to – the Natural Law (Thank you St. Thomas Aquinas!). We can “feel” good all we want about embracing diversity, but, in the final analysis, we MUST and WILL embrace all forms of love so far as they are PRINCIPLED – Godly and virtuous.

  • Jimmy Chonga

    Max, you’re clearly a non-believer. You should attempt to reel in your passion and obvious bitterness, for the sake of common sense and decency, against those that ARE believers. Sadly, you must think that those who need brain surgery would seek out the advice of a plumber or auto mechanic. You should know your limit and stay within it.

  • The Constitution was founded on Capitalist values, not Christian ones. It was designed by an emerging upper-middle class who felt oppressed by the King of England. It enshrined enlightenment principles. The Catholic Church was very concerned about the political developments in America, preferring the “revealed natural order” of monarchy which preserved the social order and mirrored the kingship of Christ.

    American values and the Catholic Church were considered at odds up until the 1980s. Long before that, Dorothy Day formed the Catholic Workers Movement, highlighting the inconsistencies of American industrial, individualistic and consumerist values. Our history is more complex than what is spoon-fed from ambos and political platforms. Resist the temptation to be historically unaware.

  • Jimmy Chonga

    Eros, Max, must be PRINCIPLED and lead to Godliness and virtue. This is exactly why, in a CIVILIZED society, there are strict restraints against violations: incest laws, polygamy laws, sodomy laws, polyandry laws, bestiality laws, rape laws – these are egregious offenses against decency – even NATURE itself. Sadly, those who stubbornly cling to their offenses can find “support” for their wantonness in this decayed husk of a civilization. This will not change God’s Eternal Laws which are written into the very fabric of Nature. When St. Pope John Paul II spoke of a “Culture of Death”, he addressed this very issue – you are mistaken for, not only offending God in His plan for Nature, but casting aspersions at those that do – a “hardened” sin like yours, requires repentance and a lot of it – I’ll pray you find the courage to confront your darkness and vanquish it.

  • Michael Skiendzielewski

    “Confusion is of the devil”…………now I know why Chaput used this phrase. Because it is an apt description of his administration and leadership down there in Center City Philadelphia at 222 N.17th St.,
    ..
    Our Philadelphia religious leader is certainly not “confused like the devil” when he trudges to Harrisburg in order to lobby AGAINST legislative proposals that would provide better protection and legal redress for past and future victims of child sexual abuse, regardless of the venue where the alleged incidents occur.

    “A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest.” Of course such a statement aligns perfectly with Archbishop Chaput’s pronouncement..

    Michael Skiendzielewski
    Captain (retired)
    Philadelphia Police Dept.

  • Lisa Pezzella

    What “devil?” Seriously, you believe in “the devil?” lol If you don’t know “right from wrong”, you lack empathy not religion!

    #FantasyLand #StoneAge #Judgement #Peace&Love #Elevate

  • florian

    Oct. 23rd: I don’t understand…are Catholic Priests signing marriage certificates for homosexuals? For those Catholics who choose not to be married in the Church?

  • I know Max uses some strong language which can be off-putting, but it’s not exactly bigotry and ignorance. He sounds fearful that religiously justified (if not motivated) violence could erupt and cause harm. I think that’s a reasonable concern.

    He also openly examines the possibility that problems in Christianity are a result of the founder’s human failings. That’s an uncomfortable idea for devotees to consider, but it is a hypothesis like anything else. It can be tested, if someone has the courage to ask the question and pursue the answer.

    What underlies a lot of the “rage” in atheism is fear. Fear society and science might be destroyed in the name of god, fear that neighbors might turn on neighbors, that mob mentality could overturn reason and unleash inhumanity on mankind. Such fear is understandable.
    Listen to it. Learn from it. Build dialogue. Witness is about reaching out effectively and consistently, not about soap-boxes and pats-on-the-back.

  • Garson Abuita

    Thanks Jack. William, instead of baselessly accusing me of being a Klan member — because anyone who criticizes anything the Church does must be a Klan member — why don’t you actually address my point? Why was it wrong for the synod participants to discuss radical ideas but perfectly fine for Chaput to do so?

  • Lena S.

    Typical liberal response – demote (and worse) those with whom you disagree. What’s the matter, no rational argument?

  • Lena S.

    I stopped reading after “bigot”. Is this really all you tedious fascists have, calling people bigots and homophobes? A poor show.

    You proclaim yourself an atheist so you can’t possibly understand what this is about. You don’t even know whom you serve.

  • Lena S.

    So a contract with the state is what shows intent? Do you not see how absurd this is? Are you even a Christian? A sacramental marriage is not a mere “affirmation”.

  • 5 & 6 are not assumptions, they are rhetorical devices meant to loosen the mental-knots some people have from doctrines “loading the language” (for a full investigation of loaded language, check out Robert J. Lifton’s “Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism”).

    4 is an observation that many seem discontented with the Christian explanation of god–it does not always provide relevant insight for modern, urban, industrial life. It certainly doesn’t apply to everyone and many persevere to “square the circle”, attributing any discontinuities to a struggle between “the Church” & “the World” or “good” and “evil”.

    3 is a short-hand form of writing a more nuanced idea. We can attempt to remedy problems once we understand their origin & development instead of reacting. These attempts are just that: attempts. Mistakes are made. Some lessons are learned and some lessons are lost. These lessons are not always conserved in collective memory. But we can still make the attempt. Just as “truth” and “reality” are to Science, so is “justice” to human society.

    2 is a Scientific theory, not an assumption. Considering the history of human evolutionary development, insights provided by the Dunbar Number, Ash and Milgram conformity experiments, etc. it’s reasonable to form a theory that human choice is shaped by nature and environment. Socialization is inherent–we do not hatch and live individual lives like octopus. From the moment we are born we are dependent on others to meet our needs and form our understanding of the universe.
    And yes (1), human perception is limited. We cannot see all forms of radiation, understand what it is to see the world through echolocation, etc. Technology has extended our ability to perceive, but we are still limited, especially when it comes to interpreting the perception to accurately assess cause, effect and outcome.

    And I’m a Scientist. I’m inclusive of my religious/spiritual impulses as well as my rational ones and seek to understand and explore both. I’m shaped by many ideas, but I’m rather certain that no ideology, creed or label would be comfortable in claiming me, so I refrain from burdening them with my association.

  • Lisa Pizza

    Yes! Taking (poor) peoples money in exchange for the promise of eternal life…. Start paying TAXES too.

  • Well said, Archbishop Chaput. We need many more strong shepherds like him who speak with a clear voice and who do not attempt to nuance doctrine into incoherence.

  • I care enough about Christians to tell them the truth.
    I respect Christians enough to not treat Jesus as anything less than the despicable monster he is.

    Why? Because I used to be that sort of Christian.

    And now the Christian churches are gaining more strength than they deserve.
    They are trying to subvert our democracy and break down the wall of separation of church and state.

    I don’t mind people having any religion they choose. But when they force it on me – and my children – I must protest not only the attempt to subvert our laws (Hobby Lobby, et al)
    but I will go further and try to speak out against the depravity of Jesus and these Yahweh beliefs.

    These Preening Peacocks like Chaput go around making claims they cannot support while having the nerve to attack American Law!

    I mean – Good grief! Stand up and say something to these ‘archbishops’!
    If their Jesus is not of this world – why are they messing with it!?

  • Katholos

    Archbishops, Cardinals, Popes, Imams and Ayatollahs — what, no Orthodox Jewish Rabbis?? Last time I looked they aren’t much in favor of homosexuality either.

    Poor Max.

  • @Jimmy Chonga,

    “Eros, Max, must be PRINCIPLED and lead to Godliness and virtue.”
    HOW DARE YOU tell other people what they have to believe?!!
    I never told you that your religion should be outlawed! Yet you want to violate our Constitutional rights and shove your Jesus onto everyone else’s sex life? You are sex obsessed. Get help.

    “This is exactly why, in a CIVILIZED society, there are strict restraints against violations: incest laws, polygamy laws, sodomy laws, polyandry laws, bestiality laws, rape laws – these are egregious offenses against decency – even NATURE itself.”

    WRONG AGAIN! There are no laws against pedophilia in the church and if there are there are no consequences for breaking it. Priests may rape as often as they like! Disgusting that anyone continues to support this institution while it protect Cardinal Bernie Law – the Godfather of the Boston Pedophile Network who lives in the Pope’s special guest house!
    Never tell a grown up that morality and virtue comes from such a clutch of hysterical clerics!

    “Sadly, those who stubbornly cling to their offenses can find “support” for their wantonness in this decayed husk of a civilization.”
    You are supporting depravity – the Catholic Church is a criminal enterprise: Its claims are unfounded, its protection from law is unfounded, its hallowed place in the pecking order is self-proclaimed, and it deserves to be sued out of existence for its Criminal activity.
    There are some good priests – but it is immoral to stay with this particular institution.

    “This will not change God’s Eternal Laws which are written into the very fabric of Nature.”
    Nonsense. There is no sign of a God connected to any law of any kind.

    “When St. Pope John Paul II spoke of a “Culture of Death”, he addressed this very issue ”
    While he was protecting thousands of Pedophiles. This is despicable.
    And you dare to discuss culture of death when there never was a bigger one than the Jesus cult.

    “you are mistaken for, not only offending God in His plan for Nature, but casting aspersions at those that do”
    If God can be offended or threatened by a few megabits of digital type on comment board he needs to question his own self-proclaimed superiority.
    It is an assault on human intelligence to continue arguing with me – instead you should examine yourself and your fascist motives.

    “a “hardened” sin like yours, requires repentance and a lot of it”
    I shall ‘repent’ to nobody – and how about taking your judgement to a religious site like Pat Robertson . com instead of a religious news site? –

    “I’ll pray you find the courage to confront your darkness and vanquish it.”
    You have it exactly backwards!
    The Courageous people in this world are the ones who are willing to seek the truth wherever it leads – and to not give in to invisible dictators who preach obedience and fear. Your defense of this ridiculous institution is willfully against humanity. I hope you are not an American citizen. Everything you have said is a subversion of American freedom.

  • Garson Abuita

    Thanks Jack. William, instead of baselessly accusing me of being a Klan member — because anyone who criticizes anything the Church does must be a Klan member — why don’t you actually address my point? Why was it wrong for the synod participants to discuss radical ideas but perfectly fine for Chaput to do so?

  • Tom Thorton

    There’s an error in this article. Gay Catholics are NOT forbidden to recieve communion. As long as a ‘gay orientated person, such as myself, is in the good grace of God living a celebate life he or she most certainly can receive communion, and we do. There is no, I repeat no, church teaching against gay orientated Catholics from receiving communion. The writer made a big error in that. What else or other mistakes did the writer make?

  • @Cajethan,

    “if God wanted it that way….”

    Look! This is not my problem – it is yours.
    SHOW ME what god wants and how you know this … and where this god exists?
    Christians say everything that happens is ‘God’s Will’ but then you say, ‘but, no – some things which happen are not God’s will’!
    HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS? What a claim!

    “God is so wise that he made them male and female…”
    Nonsense. No evidence that Male and Female is ‘wise’ or was engineered by a god! All sorts of animals are asexual. If male and female is wise, then why is it wise for so many creatures on earth to have either male and female characteristics – or neither?
    You are making wild claims which are unsupportable. It is nonsense. AND DANGEROUS NONSENSE at that!

    “Remember Sodom and Gomorrah….”
    OH GOOD GRIEF! LAUGHABLE NONSENSE!
    That is like pointing to Cinderella and saying it is wrong to make Glass slippers! Ancient racist Fables are not worthy of a grown up’s time!

    “revolt against the creator has one solution the sodom and Gomorrah replication.”
    Well I would like to tell you what I think of that threat of Genocide at the hands of your imaginary dictator, and give you a real piece of my mind but I have too much respect for RNS.

    I must submit to the grownups around here
    that the evidence is in – Christianity and Catholicism are generally on a tear to destroy our integrity, our science and our knowledge.

    I only hope the grownups outnumber the suckers who are buying this nonsense.

  • @Lulabelle,

    You exactly right.
    Fascism is at the heart of religion:

    “Bring to me those enemies of mine and EXECUTE THEM IN FRONT OF ME” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    Wake up, ‘Christians’ – this stuff is not safe to play with.

  • @William

    “Many people in the Catholic Church opposed Hitler and NAZI policies: including the Pope.”

    GARBAGE!
    THE FIRST PEACE TREATY WITH HITLER WAS THE VATICAN KONCORDAT OF 1933 AND IT ENSURED THE VATICAN WOULD BE A COUNTRY UNTO ITSELF – A LAW WHICH STILL STANDS!!!!!

    HITLER SOLD THE CHURCH A SPECIAL PROTECTION WHICH IT STILL ENJOYS TO THIS DAY – IN EXCHANGE FOR PERMISSION TO COMMIT MASS MURDER!

    BELLS RANG FROM EVERY CHURCH STEEPLE TO CELEBRATE
    HITLER’S BIRTHDAY – EVEN THROUGHOUT THE WAR!!

    FOR SHAME!

  • savvy

    Orientation is not issue. Marriage is. It’s a fine proposal. The state can be the state, the church, can be the church. Everybody is happy.

  • @Lena S.

    I’m an Ex-Catholic who taught Sunday School. I know what I’m talking about.

    But I don’t need to be an Ex-religionist
    to know that supporting the murderous passages in an old book is inhuman (killing people for being born with a ‘defect’)

    And yes, it is bigoted for the Archbishop to endorse these disgusting (and unsupportable) preachments:

    “Kill Homosexuals” – (Leviticus, 20:13)

    I am very, very sorry that modern people cannot see the evil in this garbage.
    But I must hope that someone out there hears me.

    Homosexuals are dying every day.
    don’t believe it? Tell that to the murdered homosexuals:

    Nivacil Dias de Godoy, 55,
    in Salvador, Brazil, Sept. 20, 2013.
    “the cause of death was stabbing — with a piece of wood inside a condom that pierced the victim through his anus.”

    Yes, Christianity is bigoted garbage.

  • savvy

    Are you seriously reading what’s been written. If the church pulls out of civil marriage,the state can be the state, the church can be the church. Everybody is happy.

  • Re: the “o” button causing a “-”
    the “o”s are appearing on my screen. Maybe there’s a glitch in the transmission to the server or something? Don’t know much about where that could go wrong = ).

    I think the impression that skeptics are mostly all arrogant is a miss-perception, simply because most people do not regularly broadcast their skepticism or how much they agree/disagree with an organization or idea they are affiliated with.

    I agree that many who have dedicated time to “evangelization” of skepticism and/or science are perceived as arrogant, and I agree that this leaves something to be desired regarding decent behavior and dialogue.

    There’s several factors at play…we know that confidence is attractive and convincing, so whatever we are advocating (be it religion, science or political views) we try to present it in a confident manner–and sometimes we misjudge how others will read our words / body language, etc.

    Then there’s the issue of having authority and so expecting others to accept your words without need for deeper discussion (and audiences actively and passively confer this authority on presenters, whether they are religious leaders or scientists).

    There’s also the “pressing need” many speakers feel, whether it is to save souls or save reasoning minds and this tends to push presenters into a “fight” mode of countering opposing views aggressively, even mockingly. This feeling of needing a quick resolution, reaching “those we can” and abandoning those we perceive as “beyond hope” while feeling like we’re fighting a battle leads to very uncivil discourse, on both sides. It triggers survival instincts, in-group bias and behaviors we label “arrogant” and “incendiary”.

    Removing that pressing need or that identification of “the other” as an enemy will go a long way to creating environments where dialogue can flourish, but that means taking a calm respectful approach even under intense fire–to not fight or flee but instead reach a hand out, exposing ourselves.

  • savvy

    You might be surprised in the end. Marriage between a man and a woman is dogma, not doctrine. The church cannot change this, and will pay the price if necessary.

  • @Mike,

    “Max, Be honest now….the passage in Leviticus only applies to those of the Jewish faith.”

    I am being honest.

    1. Jesus is said to have been a Jewish Rabbi. He preached to the Jews the Jewish GOD’s Laws including LEVITICUS.

    2. Jesus ENDORSED AND VALIDATED all of the laws of Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Numbers and the Old Testament!

    3. JESUS SPECIFICALLY PREACHED LEVITICUS TO HIS FOLLOWERS: “DEFRAUD NOT….” HE GOES OUT OF HIS WAY TO LIST LEVITICUS AMONG THE COMMANDS HIS FOLLOWERS MUST OBEY

    Nivacil Dias de Godoy, 55,
    in Salvador, Brazil, Sept. 20, 2013.
    “the cause of death was stabbing — with a piece of wood inside a condom that pierced the victim through his anus.”

    Christian cruelty and inhumanity is bitter cold.
    As cold as Jesus himself: “Execute them” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    “Please cite an example where any major religious leader of any current Christian denomination has said “kill homosexuals” since you continue to make this straw man argument.”

    “THE ONLY REMEDY FOR HOMOSEXUALS IS THAT THEY BE PUT TO DEATH..”

    – PASTOR ROBBY GALLATY
    TENNESEE MEGACHURCH
    SEPTEMBER 4, 2014

    http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09/04/christian-pastor-at-mega-chruch-calls-on-gays-to-be-put-to-death/

    This is hate speech. This is evil. And This is CHRISTIAN!

  • Vanda

    I don’t disagree with what you say…. what you write is clarifying most of what I wrote…. The “avenue” I was referring is another issue that the church might need to address again.

    Yes, I am familiar with “annulment”. I really didn’t want to fully go into it here because this is not the subject matter under discussion right now.

    As briefly as I can be: A close friend does not want an “annulment” as she believes it nullifies the sacred marriage that she had had. She does not feel that her marriage never existed in the eyes of God. She is also concerned with what it says to her children? Because she remarried, she cannot receive communion. She does attend Mass faithfully, prays the rosary, etc. Her second husband and children go down the aisle and receive communion but she must sit there. She knows that she can easily get an annulment, but she wants her children to know that her marriage to their father was sanctified.

    Another issue is equality in granting annulments. Is it who you know, “clerical” connections? How much you have? I realize today in 2014 it is easier to get an annulment than 50 years ago. However, it should be fair and equal for everyone. Again from experience, an Uncle Monsignor expedited numerous family annulments. We all got wedding invitations to the second marriages which incidentally were sanctified by Uncle Monsignor at the altar. Then on the other extreme, a batted friend of mine with no close clerical connection and empty pockets had to wait five long years for her annulment. I really could go on and cite many more cases that I know of. Personally I am not divorced nor had a marriage annulled but it irks me that it appears to be who you know and how much you have in your pocket. That “avenue” needs to be repaved.

    I am not criticizing the “Church” but rather the humans who are capable of making errors in judgment because some rules, regs and definitions are not clear cut. People do have biases and the clergy are people, after all.

  • Bruce B

    Priests don’t charge for weddings. A given church may have fees for setup/cleaning and use, but that’s no different than renting a hall someplace.

    I only had to pay a very small fee for insurance purposes when my wife and I were married.

  • I am not gay.
    I am a married hetorosexual (30 years) with grown-up children.
    I am an ex Catholic.

    I am American and I care about American civility, American Law and Common decency. I assure you that Christianity is not civil. It is not decent and it is no friend of America.
    Churches are social clubs which grant each other permission to spew hate tax-free:

    “THE ONLY REMEDY FOR HOMOSEXUALS IS THAT THEY BE PUT TO DEATH..”

    – PASTOR ROBBY GALLATY
    TENNESEE MEGACHURCH
    SEPTEMBER 4, 2014

    My fear is NOT FOR MYSELF, but for my gay friends who I love so much and for our fragile American law which separates church and state!

    Stand up to the Archbishop! Speak the truth!

  • Vanda

    You know, Atheist Max, I don’t know why you are really on here but for your own ego.

    However, for clarification, I don’t deny gays their rights, nor their love for one another. I am not depriving them of anything. If you call prohibiting marriage a form of deprivation, well I disagree with you. Every Church has its own laws, and right now homosexual marriage is not permitted in the Catholic Church…. and I hope it remains that way. Homosexuals can have civil unions or marry in a Church that permits it.

    I wonder what your thoughts are of Islam. The Qur’an?

  • @Jimmy Chonga,

    If you are a Christian defending this Bible you are part of the problem in America.

    “THE ONLY REMEDY FOR HOMOSEXUALS IS THAT THEY BE PUT TO DEATH..”

    – PASTOR ROBBY GALLATY
    TENNESEE MEGACHURCH
    SEPTEMBER 4, 2014

    My fear is NOT FOR MYSELF, but for my gay friends who I love so much
    and for our fragile American law which separates church and state!

    You have no evidence for a God at all.
    No evidence that you ‘KNOW’ what this god wants.
    No evidence that this god has any rights!
    No evidence that the idea of this God has any place in America!

    And yet you dare to question those of us who confront these Fascists and call us the ones who threaten?

    “KILL HOMOSEXUALS” – LEVITICUS (20:13)

    JESUS EXPLICITLY told his followers to obey Leviticus!
    “follow the commands… DO NOT DEFRAUD” – (MARK 10:19)
    referencing Leviticus (19:13): “Do NOT DEFRAUD”

    Christians! Shame on you all!

  • @Mike,

    Wrong. It is extremely important to hate the right things otherwise we will never conquer the problems of the world.

    Hate Cancer – Love cancer patients.
    Hate injustice – Love the law.
    Hate bad ideas – Love enlightenment
    Hate Nazi Philosophy – Love arguing for Peace and Understanding

    THE ARCHBISHOP DEFENDS A FACIST NAZI PHILOSOPHY.
    AND IT IS CORRECT TO HATE THAT.

    I am not interested in outlawing Catholicism.
    But it is disgraceful that more people are not abandoning this immoral cancer on their own.

    “Kill Homosexuals” – Leviticus (20:13)

    Shame on those who defend this. Really!

  • savvy

    A heretic is a baptized Catholic. Present day Protestants are not heretics. God bless you.

  • Vanda,

    I’m an Atheist and you wonder what my thoughts are on Islam?
    Do you understand what an Atheist is?

    I do not believe in any Gods
    If an Imam wants to stand up like this Dictatorial Peacock Chaput in New York City and endorse what this IDIOT is spewing I’ll be glad to pipe in the same opinion of him as well.

    At issue today is the transparent bigotry and hatred spewed by this clutch of virgins:

    “KILL HOMOSEXUALS” – LEVITICUS 20:13
    “EXECUTE THEM” – JESUS (LUKE 19:27)

    “THE ONLY REMEDY FOR HOMOSEXUALS IS THAT THEY BE PUT TO DEATH..”
    – PASTOR ROBBY GALLATY
    TENNESEE MEGACHURCH
    SEPTEMBER 4, 2014

    My fear is NOT FOR MYSELF, but for my gay friends who I love so much and for our fragile American law which separates church and state!

    Instead of waking up out of this disgusting religion and wiping the egg off your face… you defend it.

    I mean. How inhumane is that?

  • In the meantime as you wait for Jesus……let Gays be Killed????

    How irresponsible of you.

    “THE ONLY REMEDY FOR HOMOSEXUALS IS THAT THEY BE PUT TO DEATH..”
    – PASTOR ROBBY GALLATY
    TENNESEE MEGACHURCH
    SEPTEMBER 4, 2014

    Stand up to the Archbishop! Speak up!

    Is nobody listening?

  • Melvin

    One thing often forgotten by most Christians, whether Roman Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant, is that our Lord said that in the end, there would be few saved…

    In contradiction to those who believe that the Church must change to please the world, the reality is that love of the world is hatred of God…

    Now, we just have to get used to telling the truth, as Archbishop Chaput has so readily done…

  • savvy

    Public weddings were not always the norm. The sacrament is the marriage, not the party.

  • Catholic teachings are not a big con. Catholic religion is the original established religion by Jesus Himself. All other religions progressively deviated away from what Jesus taught.
    To violate the very teachings of Jesus and to say Catholicism is a big con is saying Jesus is wrong. To push contemporary dynamics of accepted cohabitation or homosexuality of these current decades (demanding the Catholic Church change) is demanding Jesus Christ to recall everything He established.

  • Vanda

    I too care for my gay friends… I love them but I don’t “fear” for them… No one is going to kill them except perhaps radical Islam… The Catholic Church is not about hatred but love. If you can’t see that, well… actually how could you being an atheist? You are not part of the Church and therefore not a valid witness.

    You sound like a very unhappy, distraught person putting on intellectual airs…. It’s sad… I realize that whatever is written here is not going to change your mind. You are fixated on a hatred of the Christian Church. You apparently stay here online because I think you enjoy antagonizing the members. Perhaps this is your pursuit in life???? Perhaps you should be more concerned about the Islam religion taking over….. then we will have to truly worry about our homosexual friends!

    I ask the other Christian members here online to join me in prayer. To pray for your enlightenment and that when you pass on from this life, that God will have mercy on your soul.

    Be it known, Atheist, that this is my last entry on this. I’ve stated my peace/piece and I have other things to do.

  • To say Catholicism is a big con is saying Jesus Christ is a big con. He establish the Catholic faith. He taught and instructed, all of which is still followed today, without deviation just because society changes and demands it.
    I pray your soul will not be infected by your misconception and demeaning attitude toward Jesus and the Catholic Church.

  • @Terri,

    “get on your knees and thank whoever for the opportunity to spout your vile judgment.”

    YES! ABSOLUTELY – Thank YOUR US Constitution and the right to free speech and those who defend it!

    And nothing else!

  • @Marie,

    “To say Catholicism is a big con is saying Jesus Christ is a big con.”

    Yup.

  • Deacon John M. Bresnahan

    If the media were doing its job fairly it would be pointing out how the Orwellian corrupt use of language is a major force being used by the “left” to destroy by smear tactics honest debate on many issues. You don’t agree with the left on some issue you are “phobic” or a “bigot.” –If every disagreement ends in such words we might as well call an end to democracy in America.

  • Blaney

    Women are to be silent in Church. You have been polluted by worldliness. Shameless hussy.

    “Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world…”

    Repent.

  • Carol

    St Igantius of Antiock talked about early church schisms. Still going on??

  • Jesus: “Follow the laws of Leviticus”

    “Kill Homosexuals” – (Leviticus 20:13)

    How is this not bigotry?
    How is it love?

    How is it defensible?
    How is it not disgusting?
    How is it virtuous?
    How is it good?
    How is it helpful?
    How is it not primitive?
    How is it not a problem?
    How is it fair?

    Why are primitive, bigoted nonsensical things being ‘preached’?
    How long do you think you can get away with it before someone kills someone yet again?

    Abandon this. Please.

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  • John

    Ok, I’ll give you the point on the megachurch pastor. That is inexcusable. But I don’t think you can take his example and say this is the official position of Christendom in all its locations and manifestations. It seems to me that this example stands out because of its uniqueness not that it is heard every day in all the Christian churches in the west.

  • John D

    Lisa, as Bishop Fulton Sheen used to say, “what’s your sin?”

  • John D

    Fran, why don’t you take your bible to North Korea!

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  • John D

    The problem Todd, is that society today is ready to collapse. I don’t know your age but I grew up in the fifties and early sixties. This was a beautiful country then because traditional morality was still the norm. No, many weren’t saints but by gradual acceptance of filth and perversion from about 1965 on, we have come to this: where homosexual “marriage” can even be considered! So, revek in your wish-washiness while you can. Are you a Unitarian BTW?

  • John D

    Best post yet!! Thank you Reginald for being a true Catholic.

  • TLM

    Some of these people are TROLLS. Don’t feed the TROLLS.

  • Jimmy Chonga

    Again, I don’t have time for non-sense. This era, this age is rapidly coming to an end. Look into it yourself. Do your own homework. Don’t be afraid to fall for REAL and AUTHENTIC love. I’m not the measure of what a Christian is – not am I the measure of Christianity – look to the cross and ask yourself how YOU measure up. Then, do yourself an ETERNAL favor, goto: www(dot)medugorje(dot)com and read for yourself – you really no NOT have much time left, my friend. Work WITH God, and He will WORK with you. Good luck and God Bless.

  • John D

    Oh for crying out loud, Mike! Are you at the stage where you still parrot that sale of indulgences crap!? Not very original for a protestant catholic hater, don’t you agree? It’s also time to remove the Kidd gloves re: protestants! The current degradation of society started with the protestant revolt. NO! It wasn’t a reformation, it was a sexually motivated revolt. Luther, wanted to marry, broke his vow of celibacy and obedience, etc; He lied twice to Pope Leo X, promising to abide by the pope’s decision re. his case. Henry VIII, “married” his own daughter, Anne Boleyn. Yes, his daughter by an affair with Lady Boleyn while her husband was out of the country. Made him a baron upon his return. Elizabeth I was Henry’s own daughter and granddaughter!! This is the man Anglicans trust for their salvation when you trace their origins. Zwingli, Calvin (Calvert) were priests who had affairs with numerous women. All pigs who splintered the Mystical Body of Christ. Millions of souls lost un the bargain. But most ridiculous of all is the fact that you protestants insult your own families…Yes, if you could trace your family trees back far enough, you would find-GASP!! Catholics! You see, every European was once Catholic or they still worshipped the sun or the trees. Which one is it for you?

  • Jenna

    “Bring to me those enemies of mine and execute them in front of me.” – JESUS (luke 19:27)

    Max, you’re excellent at taking things out of context. Jesus spoke that line as part of a parable. Those are someone else’s words he’s speaking. Try reading more than one sentence at a time, please.

  • John D

    What psychobabble! Thanks Terry, everything’s clarified now….

  • Jenna

    I feel the need to reiterate for anyone reading this that this quote is taken out of context. It’s from a parable, in which Jesus is speaking the words of the man in the story, not His own commands…

  • Anita

    Anyone who criticizes Archbishop Chaput has no idea what a holy archbiahop is.
    Ge speaks the truth. The devil wants to cause division within the church. We have some church leaders who are so liberal that if Jesus were to return to earth eight now, he would definitely remove them from their positions and be critical of their way of thinking.

  • @Jenna,

    Furthermore, You will not disagree that the Nobleman in the parable IS Jesus – it is a deliberate reference to Jesus as executioner who vows to return to kill people at the Parousia.

    You do not get a pass for pointing out that it is a parable – and neither does Jesus.

    The nobleman is jesus. “Execute them” is what he meant!

  • “Go to an atheist site…”

    Archbishop Chaput defends the worst, ugliest possible sort of bigotry and I’m glad you are reading my responses to it.
    Read them all. Reply and I’ll give you more.

  • Jenna –

    This is tiresome. Apparently it takes an Atheist to explain Christianity to Christians!

    The Nobleman in the Parable is Jesus!
    He is talking about himself.

    “Bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their King and execute them in front of me.” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    Jesus is describing the Parousia – don’t take my word for it!
    read the Catholic analysis of the parable for yourself!

  • Funny how Jesus lines right up with a person’s worst prejudices.

    “Kill them” – Jesus (Luke 19:27)

  • “This was a beautiful country then because traditional morality was still the norm.”

    LOL!

    As long as you weren’t black – or you might get lynched.
    Or never hired
    Or never educated
    or not allowed to drink from the white people’s fountain
    or go to hotels
    or go to restaurants
    Or gay – you would be killed.
    Or lesbian – you would not be employed
    Or Jewish – you would not be employed
    Or a woman – you would not be employed
    Or a woman – you would not have the right to abortion

    Yes the 50’s and 60s were great for white men. Lots of morals in that group.

    PS : I was a white kid then
    so I know the spin you are playing.

  • Karen

    Florian, no! Of course they aren’t signing marriage certificates for homosexuals. What the bishops are saying is, by refusing to certify civil marriages, they are asserting that marriage is God’s institution, not the government’s. I would expect if that scenario takes place, they would still perform marriage ceremonies in the Church, but couples would also need to be married civilly so that the government would recognize the marriage.

  • melvin

    The church does not promise of eternal life. It’s ‘in hope of eternal life”

  • Garson Abuita

    Tell me what I said that was any different than something you’d find in the National Catholic Reporter or Commonweal. Let me guess, they’re Protestant morons too.

  • Alexandra Andrea Pascual

    I agree with you. They can modernized everything except the Word of God(Jesus)

  • We need Congress to end this debate and stop same-sex marriage by prohibiting creating human beings except by joining a sperm of a man and an egg of a woman, and prescribing the effect of marriage as approving and allowing the couple to procreate offspring with their own genes. That would rule out “postgenderism” the idea that people have a right to be either mothers or fathers, which is super damaging to everyone’s psyche and dignity. It would end same-sex marriage and void all same-sex marraiges in the country.

    Please call your reps and urge them to vote for a Natural Marriage and Reproduction Act ASAP! There is no reason to delay, the delay is wasting time and money.

  • You just don’t belong here, nor understand the core problems of this matters.

  • Amen.

  • Go to your non “homophobic” (homosexual, & stupid word invention) realm, where man are women, and women are man. Go to your “universal religion”, where all is peace, and chant “Cumbaya”…

  • @Robert Nicodemo,

    “I killed my son for you. If you don’t believe it – I’ll do worse things to you.”
    – Yahweh

    I’m not bitter that you believe this.
    I am bitter that you won’t let me NOT believe it.

  • What would the Living Heart of Jesus say to a third-gendered person? This is not referring to someone who wants a sex change, someone who feels “different” or “in the wrong body”…but to someone who, by the grace of G-d was created with both male and female anatomy due to a chromosomal difference. I’m curious b/c I view it like Downs Syndrome, not a disease, just a different way of being human.

    But the Church does not seem to have the ability to include this natural variation. To be genetically third gendered in this way (because there are other ways: people with XXX who present as female but are sterile; people with XYY who present as male but are sterile…though because they conform visually they are accepted as romantic partners and fit into designated roles) is to be singled out, to be excluded from vocations, romantic companionship (even peer companionship–when your body doesn’t conform to “the natural order” many mistrust or feel uneasy around you). The exclusion, the pushing out, is due to the Traditions and Teaching of the Church (or the Teaching of Jesus, depending on how you would like to perceive it). The Church says all are welcome, that the good news is for all, but for some of us, the teaching has caused many otherwise decent neighbors to be inhumane. Catholic hospitals which won’t perform sex-changes or sterilizations will not think twice about mutilating an infant’s or child’s genitals to make them “appear” “normal”, even though their other organs (including the endocrine system) will develop along the predetermined, genetic pattern. So I’m asking you: Is there truly space for everyone at the table?

  • jusyfeddup

    THINK, about this. If you go through life claiming you are a follower of Jesus Christ and He is God, who KNOWS all things PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE, and are not a member of the ONE SINGLE Church He founded on St. Peter (the Catholic Church). Then what you are actually saying is, “God made a mistake”. Please don’t bring up the Child Molesters and other assorted crimes committed by MEN. They had FREE WILL just as Lucifer did.

  • gocart mozart

    Chaput is confused.

  • gocart mozart

    Quote me what Jesus said about gays or gay marriage. If you can’t then blow it out your …

  • gocart mozart

    Thank the ACLU JM.

  • gocart mozart

    Chaput should be Kaput.

  • gocart mozart

    What does that even mean?

  • gocart mozart

    Worry more about the beam in your own eye Deacon.

  • gocart mozart

    “2. Please cite an example where any major religious leader of any current Christian denomination has said “kill homosexuals”

    Does this guy count?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Lively

  • gocart mozart

    What if Sheela Na Gigs is the one true God? Bet you would feel pretty foolish after you are gone.
    http://hubpages.com/hub/10-Weird-Gods-and-Goddesses

  • @Lauren Beck,

    “So I’m asking you: Is there truly space for everyone at the table?”

    No.
    Where science is open minded and inquisitive,
    Religion is intolerant and ignorant.

    Sexuality is normal for the rest of us.
    But to a Catholic all sex is a sick fetish, a Christian closet of delicious/evil/sick/joyous indulgences which must be apologized for and indulged again in self hatred.

    It is garbage and it is unhealthy.

    For the rest of us who think rationally, there is no room for this primitive nonsense. Sex is part of life. Done.

  • Mike

    Pray the rosary???

    Why the hell would I pray a made up superstitious rite created by the Roman Church to keep its members enslaved to the powerful elite and to continue to funnel money to that same elite.

  • Mike

    justyfeddup,

    Perhaps there is some instruction when just after Jesus praised Peter for his confession, when Peter began to go counter to Jesus’ teaching, Peter is called “Satan”.

    It appears to me the all knowing Jesus was indicating that even the institutional church that claims to be founded upon Peter could become “satanic”.

    I’d rather stick to the one foundation according to Scripture — Jesus.

    Even St. Paul had to correct Peter’s false understandings and teachings in his lifetime.

  • Thea

    So when does Gibson address how he distorted things in this report, in order to suit his bias?

  • When writing we sometimes have to state intention b/c writing does not convey tone or body language. This is meant with all concern and openness to talk, Max:

    I was not asking you. I am interested in what believers, especially Living Heart of Jesus, think and how they might apply their values when confronting a very private, sensitive aspect of reality most people will not talk openly about.

    If you would like to message me privately I’d be happy to talk with you. My contact info should be on my blog, which is connected to my name above.

  • For those who dismiss Max b/c he doesn’t express himself the way some would prefer he would, please move past your initial reaction and consider how concerned for the marginalized and how frustrated with believers Max must be to take such a vocal stand. Max is being emotionally honest and that should be appreciated, not condemned. It is only when we have an idea of where others are coming from that we can move the dialogue forward.

  • David Gibson

    Just checking back in here, 218 comments, wow.

    I stand by the story, which I think relays +Chaput’s comments accurately and in context.

    But do check out his response via the Catholic News Agency:

    http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/archbishop-chaput-rejects-false-media-reports-on-synod-comments-78869/

    I think one of his primary objections is that his lecture was not about the synod, which is true. I thought I pointed that out clearly enough in the story, but others may disagree.

    David Gibson

  • Irene

    Another bishop with a chaplaincy to the Knights of Malta in his future.

  • Brother Rolf

    Jesus didn’t mention gay marriage because there were no queers getting married in his time.

  • Ashley 768

    Dane…why do you even care? If you have problems with the Catholic church or religion, and its teachings, why can’t you just ignore it all and go on your merry way? Why even bother commenting here?

  • Ashley 768

    Geez, I feel sorry for you….

  • Ashley 768

    Yes. Amen!

  • Ashley 768

    Another Amen!

  • Ashley 768

    Yes, hopefully so.

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  • Jim

    Atheist Max,

    I do thank our Consttutnion, The Bill of rights, and the Declairation of Independanc. All of which declare that we get our rights, not from the State but, from God.

    Jim

  • john rooney

    how silly, doesn’t the good archbishop know that jesus came for the
    whole human race? my goodness, we catholics have a lot to learn from
    our protestant brethren. i shan’t get into their considerations concerning
    the exegesis of the sacred texts, but polls seem to show that catholic lay
    population – about 60% – are in substantial agreement with the mainline protestant churches. i can only guess that the hierarchy have a problem
    because of papal authority inherited as a tradition from pius xi casti connubii.
    in light of more recent understanding of human sexuality, and especially
    with all the problems arising regarding clerical sexual abuse in the catholic
    church, perhaps the hierarchy would do well to revisit the whole question
    and pay more attention to recent protestant thought and their own catholic flock.

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