• Dan

    Nice article Kimberly… thoughtful and well researched.

  • Jack

    As a theist, I’m not normally keen on giving advice on how best to promote atheism, but my communications self cringed when I read “Better News Club.”

    The problem is that it’s a “me, too, me, too!” name. It’s defining one’s self in terms of one’s opposition…..It implies that the club has no unique identity apart from its opposition.

    “Skeptics Club” sounds better.

    And that’s probably the last time I will proffer advice to the opposition….

  • Thanks, Kimberly Winston.
    I love this story. Just the pick me up I needed.

    “It isn’t atheism for kids; it doesn’t address debunking religion …“Our focus is on science-based critical thinking.”

    Awesome! Exactly as it should be.

    When I was a kid the TV programs of the great explorer and marine biologist Jacques Yves Cousteau filled my imagination with a deep appreciation for the oceans and the threat of pollution.
    Evolution was mentioned as matter-of-fact and there was so much more.

    Yet it wasn’t until recently I learned Jacques yves Cousteau was an Atheist.
    I wasn’t surprised. His love of poetry and culture comes through in his narrations.

    Kids today have so much more to learn. I’m so glad there is this new group which will not waste their time with religious nonsense.
    How I rue my wasted Sunday mornings in church when all I wanted was to go to a beach and collect shells.

  • Thank you!

  • That’s why the club itself is actually called Young Skeptics.

  • Pingback: Atheist parents take on Christian ‘Good News Club’ with ‘Better News Club’ « DoctorE()

  • Doc Anthony

    The shells are still there on the beach for you to collect, Max.

    Discovering what those shells ultimately point to, is an adventure that could one day lead you away from worthless Atheism.

  • Pingback: The Skeptical Word | SPIR()

  • Pingback: Atheists Rival Christian ‘Good News Club’ with ‘Better News Club’ | BCNN1 WP()

  • Pingback: Atheists Rival Christian ‘Good News Club’ with ‘Better News Club’ -  BCNN1 – Black Christian News Network()

  • Pingback: Did God Design the Universe? | Jay N. Forrest's Podcast and Blog()

  • MackK

    The unfortunate things is many parents will stick Junior in in any after-school program, regardless of content, as a form of extended daycare. I think the religious right knows this and is exploiting it to recruit new impressionable minds into the flock.

  • chaos is coming

    Hahaha, really? Where the seashells lead? Seashells are just the abandoned external skeletons of mollusks. Don’t follow them Max! You’ll be just as lost as all religious people 🙂

  • Arn

    “Discovering what those shells ultimately point to, is an adventure that could one day lead you away from worthless Atheism.”

    Or, the adventure could be a lifelong study to the evolution of mollusks.

  • Oliver Foggin

    Haha! Perfect response.

    There is nothing “worthless” about studying the beautiful complexity of nature and the way that evolution has shaped everything around us.

  • Larry

    Love shellfish.

    Arn’s comment has me thinking of bouillabaisse, soon do-bu, moules frites and scungili. Evolution made them so tasty!!!!

    I am so taking a trip to the fish market after work.

  • deborah

    I’m not an atheist, but I do appreciate poetry and culture.

  • deborah

    I am a Christian. I home schooled my children for 18 years, not because we were hiding from anything, but because the we believe the classroom is not the optimum situation for learning for everyone. We have discussed at length different religions and philosophies, including atheism. There is no reason for truth to fear reason, but reason can be based on incorrect information. If our beliefs seem to contradict science in some area, it is because there are some details on one side or the other which remain unknown for now. Our faith tells us that when all of the details are known, faith and science will fit together perfectly.

  • Pingback: Psychological Abuse? Skeptics Reveal Plan to Combat After-School Club Aimed at Teaching Kids ‘Valuable Lessons From the Bible’ | TheBlaze.com()

  • NC10T

    The club name is still wrong. “Reality Club” would be a much better description as it deals only in science, which requires any ideas be based in reality, not superstition and supernatural nonsense.

  • Not exactly an engaging name to bring kids in the door, but I understand your sentiment.

  • Pingback: Psychological Abuse? Skeptics Reveal Plan to Combat After-School Club Aimed at Teaching Kids ‘Valuable Lessons From the Bible’()

  • NC10T

    Children are born atheists. Any nonsense about superstitions and supernatural nonsense must be instilled into them. In any child who is never exposed to this form of child abuse, the child will never “believe” in any supernaturals. Proof is easy. Just ask yourself why the children always start believing in the superstitions of their parents. Religion is well aware that the brainwashing of the very young into their particular superstitions will make or break the religion’s continuation to the next generation. If you remove the children of the most crazy evangelicals from them, and their exposure, as babies, those children never become extensions of those crazy evangelicals.

    Given a little space of their own before the onslaught of fictional superheros, Santa Claus, any gods of any religion, the naturally rational children that result will blow it all off as unreal and irrational. Older children, such as those Mormon boys who make the mistake of knocking at my door, can be quite easily deprogrammed with simple instruction by simply instilling doubt about their superstitions that are never realized, them being told by the brainwashers to never think for themselves or question the superstition. I always try to save those boys, and any others, with reality and science….(c;]

  • NC10T

    And, of course, you taught your children the same religious delusions YOU believe in as truth and everything else as “obviously false” and “wrong”.

    If faith and science fit together so perfectly, why isn’t the Earth flat, the center of the solar system with everything rotation around it and the center of the known Universe……any more. For over a thousand years to even THINK such scientific nonsense would get you ostracized as crazy at least and hung on a nail until dead or burned at the stake at most. If the true believers could get away with this kind of genocide, today, they still would…..You would if you were brainwashed that it was the “godly thing to do”….by the murderous clerics trying to stave off any opposition and reason….

  • Pingback: Psychological Abuse? Skeptics Reveal Plan to Combat After-School Club Aimed at Teaching Kids ‘Valuable Lessons From the Bible’ | Reform The Government()

  • Jack

    “Reality Club?”

    You folks do lack poetry.

  • Jack

    Oh what fun!

  • Jack

    NC, you win the Wishful Thinking Award for January 2015.

    Congrats….

  • Jack

    The big bad religious bogeyman.

    I suppose they poison wells, too.

  • Jack

    Typical Euro view of religion as opposed to reason as well as freedom…..

    From reading some of the critics of religion, you’d think they’re all green horns who just got off the boat from Old Europe and have never read the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and Tocqueville’s Democracy in America.

  • Larry

    Wow, that is a really cynical comment as to religious belief. I did not expect that from you. I also doubt reason and instilling doubt for a few moments is really going overcome years of programming and brainwashing.

  • Larry

    That is because Christianity and Islam are two religions which most tried to interfere with scientific development and discovery. There is no notion of “creation science” in Buddhism, Hinduism or many other faiths.

  • Pingback: Psychological Abuse? Skeptics Reveal Plan to Combat After-School Club Aimed at Teaching Kids ‘Valuable Lessons From the Bible’ | Walker Ministries | Virginia Beach, VA()

  • Charles Freeman

    Their god supposedly killed the populations of entire cities, and eventually murdered the entire human population of earth except for a small group lead by his accomplice, Noah. Poisoning wells is small potatos for these folks.

  • Charles Freeman

    Good reply, NC. I have read many Christian descriptionsof their “Home Schooling” educative process. These far right Christians all sound about the same. They indicate that the rest of the world is wrong, and the inerrant bible is right. They couldn’t begin to understand the biblical scholars who have found multitudes of false data and errors in the bible. They can’t recognize that the present bible was created by the Catholic Church and Protestant sects to maximize their political powers and tighten their holds on populations.

  • Pingback: Saturday Ramblings, January 10, 2014 | internetmonk.com()

  • Shawnie5

    My, how clever. Did you have to stay up all night composing that terrrrrribly fresh and original put-down?

  • Shawnie5

    That is complete nonsense. One of my dearest friends came from just such an environment as you described, in the atheist utopia of Albania where no one talked to their children about God for fear of the family being targeted by the authorities. As an adult she came to America and learned about God which finally made sense of everything for her. She is now in evangelical ministry with her husband, a pastor, and in the meantime faith has returned and is growing in what was once proudly proclaimed the first atheist nation in the world, populated by those now-grown children taught not to believe in supernaturals.

    Sorry to pop your bubble.

  • John P. S.

    The ‘real’ implies the ‘apparent’ and no one has given a criterion to distinguish between the two!
    John P. S.

  • Pingback: Selected News Stories from Around the World* — Saturday, Jan. 10 | The BibleMesh Blog()

  • Billysees

    Max writes —

    “It isn’t atheism for kids; it doesn’t address debunking religion …“Our focus is on science-based critical thinking.”

    “Awesome! Exactly as it should be.”

    “Kids today have so much more to learn. I’m so glad there is this new group which will not waste their time…”

    Very good comments about important subject matter. I think similarly.

    I grew up with casual Church teachings one day a week and meaningful behavior and thinking the rest of the time. For me, that was the perfect balance.

    Spirituality and the relevant affairs of life got along just great.

  • If I were a parent living in Churchville (ironic) N.Y. my child would certainly be an a member of both clubs. Critical thinking and analysis are seldom taught anywhere these days, by organizations that are religious, secular or otherwise. I happen to love science and was a member of the junior science club in middle school. (I later majored in history rather than science because I’m not as crazy about math.)

    My daughter is 5 and while children develop at different rates emotionally, socially, etc. I’m always a little suspicious of “conversion stories” among 5 and 6 year olds. Growing up in a Christian family I made a well-informed decision at age 12. I later reconsidered that decision in high school and college, which challenged my world view (including a class in critical thinking which I wish every student was required to take) but did not cause me to lose my faith. As a church pastor, teacher and parent I never advocate making important decisions while lacking any relevant facts. And for the record I happen to enjoy art, poetry, music, theater and other aspects of this and other cultures. The Bible is filled with poetry, despite Atheist Mas’s claim that only nontheists enjoy it.

  • I would never suggest that only non theists value culture. But Jacques Yves Cousteau’s poetic narration was bereft of any nods to the supernatural.

    It so happens that religion makes claims for itself which obviate the need for other intellectual and cultural pursuits: Science, philosophy, literature, all suffer when someone says ‘all I need is my Bible’ or ‘all I need is my Q’uran’, etc.
    Religion claims to be about humility, but it is in its devout forms very solipsistic and shutters all other doors of inquiry.

    “Man has dominion because it is in my Bible” – Ken Hamm (Creationist)

    “Man, of all the animals, is probably the only one to regard himself as a great delicacy” – Jacques Yves Cousteau

    Something to think about.

  • Rational1

    Good article, Kimberly. Thanks for covering this important story. It’s nice to see this long-awaited humanist response to Good News Club indoctrination. A few minor corrections: 1. Groups in Portland and elsewhere are not lobbying school administrators to ban the Good News Club, since the Supreme Court ruled the club is legal. Rather, most opposition to the Good News Club centers on informing parents of the dangers of exposing their children to fear and shame-based indoctrination. Parents have a right to know what is being taught in their schools, even after school, and schools have a duty to inform them. 2. “Pizza evangelism” refers not to Good News Clubs, which are aimed at elementary school children, but to programs aimed at middle and high schoolers, where students are lured to nearby churches during lunch with the promise of free pizza if they submit themselves to evangelizing.

  • Rational1

    Good article, Kimberly. Thanks for covering this important story. It’s nice to see this long-awaited humanist response to Good News Club indoctrination. A few minor corrections: 1. Groups in Portland and elsewhere are not lobbying school administrators to ban the Good News Club, since the Supreme Court ruled the club is legal. Rather, most opposition to the Good News Club centers on informing parents of the dangers of exposing their children to fear and shame-based indoctrination. Parents have a right to know what is being taught in their schools, even after school, and schools have a duty to inform them. 2. “Pizza evangelism” refers not to Good News Clubs, which are aimed at elementary school children, but to programs aimed at middle and high schoolers, where students are lured to nearby churches during lunch with the promise of free pizza if they submit themselves to evangelizing.

  • Pingback: The Weekly Upchuck January 11, 2015 | Being Christian()

  • John W

    Still waiting to hear what their “Better News” is

  • Ming Qua

    Thanks, Jackie5. Kisses back to you too!

  • Larry

    It would be highly misleading (but par for the course for Bible thumpers) to characterize a communist regime as humanist, secularist or skeptic.

    But you know that already.

    So its not a matter of personal ignorance on your part but deliberate attempt at guilt by association.

    They promote religious fervor and irrational thinking just like devout religious types do. The only difference being the object of worship. The state replaces God. It was fairly easy for religious fanaticism to replace fanaticism of the state.

    The upside to religion returning to Albania is they had the good sense to create a secular democratic constitution. Albania is one of a handful Muslim majority countries with free exercise of religion. .

  • Thecla

    Why aren’t liberal ‘mainline’ theists, in response to these good news, and better news, clubs organizing best news clubs?

    I prowl blogs, read through comments on posts connected to religion and invariably most of the comments are by village atheists, with some responses by village fundamentalists. Where are the mainline Christians and other liberal theists?

  • Shawnie5

    Excuse-making nonsense. They didn’t worship the state. They only feared it. Worship of any kind, supernaturalism of any kind, was a completely foreign concept. In which case religion should never have returned at all, and people like my friend should never have found faith in America.

    You don’t even have to go overseas to find examples. People right here are raised without faith and find it as adults. My husband is one such.

    Too late for you guys to disown the communists; you’re stuck with them till kingdom come. If you wanted to disclaim them, you should have done it BEFORE their atrocities became common world knowledge- but none of you did.

  • Catherine Howe

    Shawnie5, “They didn’t worship the state. They only feared it.”, sounds much like Christian worship of their mass-murderer deity.

    And why should atheists have to “disown” what isn’t theirs to begin with? Atheism is the absence of belief in gods, and does not prescribe or require a particular political system. Communism and some of its despotic regimes have much more in common with several Christian denominations than they do with atheism. That common ground includes suppression of reasoned criticism.

  • shawnie5

    Perfect love casts out fear, Catherine.

    Not all atheists are communists, of course, but atheism is part and parcel of communism, and I’m sorry but the only exemplars we have for society with God completely absent from culture are the world’s communist hell-holes. Don’t blame the messengers if you guys haven’t made a better showing.

  • Shawnie,

    “Execution is the result if you question me. I don’t have to explain anything to you or humanity in any way…death will be the consequence…it won’t matter how much you beg me I shall have no mercy.”
    – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    “Do as I say or be killed” – Stalin

    All dictatorship is religion.
    Dictators can’t function without religion.
    Mass murder cannot happen without religion.

    Your enemy is not Atheism. Your enemy is the blending of church and state – Politics and religion.

    Stop whining about straw men
    and start paying attention to supporting the one thing which has been proven to eliminate mass murder in the name of religion:
    The Separation of Church and State

  • Oscar

    shawnie5, that’s not “perfect love”, when your deity threatens to punish you and even kill you if you don’t follow along. It’s a classic abusive relationship. Christianity really does have a lot in common with the worst dictatorships there.

    Seek counseling! And a better, and real, partner!

  • Shawnie5

    It’s not abusive to grant you what you want the most — eternal separation from a God you want nothing to do with.

  • Jack

    No Ming, but I did grow up in an environment where parents and teachers alike were honest about life and people, and weren’t afraid to offer constructive criticism out of fear of wounding our “self-esteem.”

  • Jack

    Larry, I have no idea what you’re talking about or how it relates to my post, assuming it does.

  • Jack

    Regarding Shawnie5’s last post in this sequence:

    Suddenly, silence in reply.

    They can’t answer her….

  • Jack

    Ming apparently hasn’t heard of the psychological phenomenon known as projection.

  • Jack

    Charles Freeman apparently mistakes Da Vinci Code novels and hack cover stories in Newsweek for biblical scholarship. It’s like mistaking Daffy Duck for Albert Einstein.

  • Jack

    Max, let us know when you decide truly to think about anything. Then you’ll have graduated to adulthood.

  • Jack

    Thecla, once upon a time, mainliners could lay claim to the “vital-center” title.

    But in those days, kids wore bobby socks, we had a president named Ike, and few of us were even born yet.

    Today, mainline Protestant leaders are about as sober-minded and moderate as Rev. Wright, Obama’s former pastor.

  • Jack

    And who are “these folks?” Jews, whose ancestors BTW wrote the Bible, were falsely accused of poisoning wells.

  • Oscar

    No, shawnie5, that’s not the case, and it’s also abusive to keep a partner on the hook waiting for thousands of years.

    You tried to avoid my point, but my point stands. It is definitely abusive to threaten a partner with death and torture, as your holy book clearly presents your god as doing. Along with his mass killing of entire peoples.

    Review my point, and try to respond directly this time instead of dodging the fact that your deity would be abusive and murderous, if it existed -fortunately, it does not.

  • Oscar

    And shawnie5, no, obviously most of us do not want death the most. Excepting, perhaps, some of your comrades in that other popular and murderous cult that is so much in the news these days. Your own cult’s history is as sorry as Islam’s, and perhaps worse in terms of its history of violent suppression of free thought.

  • Jack,

    People ask why I hate religion.

    I hate what it does to people’s minds. Only a person who was steeped in religion could propose that an ex-Christian “has not thought” about anything.

    Religion conditions the believer
    into a persecution complex unlike any other philosophy invented by man. People think they should fear Atheism – but they should not. They should fear what religion does to the mind.

    Your victimhood and obstinacy are symptoms of a religious indoctrination.

    As long as there is Separation of Church and State, I am fine.
    As long as there is freedom of speech, I am fine.

    But you require everyone else to think exactly like you. That is scary.

  • Ming Qua

    Keep on keeping on with the insults nasty Jackie5. You sure fling them, and you represent your oppressive Christian gang well.

  • Shawnie5

    @Max: No, all dictatorship is not religion. Dictatorship is simply greater force overcoming lesser force. No faith in anything required. And without faith, no reason why not, either. Which is why everything you guys set up once you get a little power tends to drift that way. Heck, you can even see it on a small scale on these discussion boards, with your compadres playing silly games like hijacking names and slinging insults and profanity to try to shut down conversation. Give the same kind of people the political reins and you have the hell-hole that was atheist Albania. Or perhaps atheist and socialist Mexico — where the constitution read just like a page off an RNS discussion thread with its talk of “combatting fanaticism and prejudices” by “removing all religious doctrine” and “building in the youth a rational and exact concept of the universe and of social life.” Sounds a lot like your “better news.” No thanks.

    @Oscar: “And shawnie5, no, obviously most of us do not want death the most.”

    Yes you do. God is not a “partner” on equal footing with us. He’s the Creator. The absence of the Creator’s presence and power is death, purely and simply. You don’t want the Creator’s presence. Therefore you must necessarily want death. Why is it abusive to grant what you want?

  • @Shawnie,

    “All dictatorship is not religion”

    wrong.

    This is what happens when Religion runs a country!!!

    SAUDI ARABIA PLACES FATWA ON BUILDING SNOWMEN

    Horrific, inhuman, unnatural, arbitrary, disgusting, domineering nonsense.

    You reject the only thing that will protect us all:
    Separation of Church and State.
    You give encouragement to those who would destroy separation and lead us into madness.

    http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/snowmen-declared-anti-islamic-as-snow-falls-in-saudi-arabia-647692?pfrom=home-topstories

    ____
    AM
    For Peace, Positive Atheism and The Separation of Church and State

  • Jack

    Completely wrong, Max.

    You saw the posts in which I showed plenty of respect for that pastor who after a year’s worth of pondering, decided he was an atheist.

    The interview with him revealed a thoughtful person who had carefully weighed both sides and understood the nuances. He wasn’t sweeping under the rug the problems with both positions — theism and atheism. He was choosing atheism, but he was showing some honesty and integrity and character as well.

    That’s called being an adult, Max. Try it sometime.

  • @Shawnie,

    “Give the same kind of people the political reins and you have the hell-hole that was….”

    Are you really incapable of not comprehending this?

    I don’t care about whether you believe in God or not!
    Have a nice time with it – knock yourself out!

    Pray to your god and claim that he answered your prayers – then watch as little children pray but they die anyway. Go ahead and believe that God gave you a special pat on the back if you want.
    It is dangerous, selfish nonsense but you are free to have it!

    Nobody will take away your right to your philosophy. That is not the problem and that is NOT what Atheists like me are trying to do.

    Just keep religion out of THE LAWS.

    _____
    AM
    For Peace, Humanity, Positive Atheism and the Separation of Church and State

    (I place this signature at the bottom to remind people that most Atheists do believe in and care about the important things.)

  • Jack

    No “Ming,” that’s me. Anyone with eyes and a critical mind can tell the difference between Shawnie5 and myself. She’s a lot more tolerant than I am of shenanigans, plus she’s probably the most intelligent person on the boards.

    By the way, “Ming,” how many names do you need? Stand-up guys don’t hide behind the names of women.

  • Jack,

    “He was choosing atheism, but he was showing some honesty and integrity and character as well…..That’s called being an adult, Max. Try it sometime.”

    1. Bell made it clear that he didn’t choose Atheism. Neither did I. Belief is not a choice. If it were a choice, your own ‘belief in god’ could be dismissed as ‘pretending’. Are you really ready to defend pretending as a virtue? Who is being dishonest then?

    2. honesty? You have not been honest about Zombies (Matthew 27:52) which you know are impossible yet you claim to know they were real (or are you just ‘choosing belief’ in nonsense to make your life easier?)

    3. Integrity and character? I never stooped to insulting you personally as you routinely do to me and others. And I won’t even do it now. That is what integrity and character are all about.

    I’m going to stop commenting here now because we have left the topic Kimberly Winston’s article was about.

    _____
    AM
    For Peace, Positive Atheism and The Separation of Church and State

  • Oscar

    Shawnie5, it is absurd and false for you to state for me that I, or others generally, want death the most.

    Please retract your obvious lie in that regard.

  • Shawnie5

    Do you want nothing to do with the Creator, as Max and a few others have expressed?

  • Shawnie5

    @Max: I don’t reject separation of church and state at all. I think it’s a great thing for the church as well as for nonbelievers. Where fid you ever get the idea that I reject it?

    “This is what happens when Religion runs a country!!!”

    Religions can be dictatorships, of course. But all dictatorships are not religion.

    “Nobody will take away your right to your philosophy. That is not the problem and that is NOT what Atheists like me are trying to do.”

    Not you, perhaps. Many others would. And as for your assurances, well, we’ve heard them all before. But actions speak louder than words, and you guys have given the world exactly zero reasons to trust your intentions ad every reason not to. You’re only fallen human beings like everyone else, and fallen human beings tend to use power available to them against others for their own ends. End of story.

  • Oscar

    Shawnie5, it is absurd and false for you to state for me that I, or others generally, want death the most.

    Please retract your obvious lie in that regard.

  • Oscar

    shawnie5, it’s also abusive to keep a partner on the hook waiting for thousands of years.

    You tried to avoid my point, but my point stands. It is definitely abusive to threaten a partner with death and torture, as your holy book clearly presents your god as doing. Along with his mass killing of entire peoples.

    Review my point, and try to respond directly this time instead of dodging the fact that your deity would be abusive and murderous, if it existed -fortunately, it does not.

  • Ming Qua

    That’s you, Jackie. Highest percentage of insults per comment is from you by far.

  • Shawnie5

    Oscar, as I’ve already stated, God is not a “partner” on equal footing with me. He is the Creator.

    He also has not left us “on the hook” for thousands of years. The Kingdom of God arrived two thousand years ago, and the Kingdom is now, our citizenship is now, and eternal life is now. The fullness of the Kingdom will arrive in His perfect time, but in the meantime we lack for nothing and rejoice that people just like you still have the opportunity to receive grace.

    Why are you unable to answer my question about whether you want fellowship with, or separation from, the Creator?

  • Shawnie5

    Nah, that would be Larry. She not only slings ’em, but also jumps in to explain why it’s ok for others to sling them. Excellent advertising for your camp–just like you.

  • Oscar

    Shawnie5, your question presents a false dichotomy and as such is invalid, and further, there is no recent evidence that the creator described in your holy book actually exists. In fact, your bible is mainly and plainly myth. Furthermore, why should I need to make any bargain with such a murderous, vicious creature as your Creator is presented in your bible as being?

    As for your absurd statement about your (mythical) creator over time, no, we are not in a kingdom of any such “divine” creature, who despite supposedly being omnipotent, could not do his job right the first time around. In that regard, all the awful debilitating diseases and natural disasters that your villainous “creator” would also be blamed for having created, plainly demonstrate that point.

    The lengths and bizarre “arguments” that you present in defense of your disgusting, violent delusion are fairly typical of your ilk.

    Now, back to the issue that you have dodged yet again:

    It is absurd and false for you to state for me that I, or others generally, want death the most. Please retract your obvious lie in that regard. I’m not going to let you get away with that lie.

    Retraction please, Shawnie5.

  • Ming Qua

    Nah, Jackie5, looking at the history here, Larry’s posts are mostly pretty mellow and reasonable, whereas Jackie’s are very often insulting and demeaning. Jackie represents his bigoted Christian cult well.

  • Shawnie5

    “We are not in a kingdom of any such “divine” creature,”

    You are not in that kingdom, no. Unless a man be born again he can not even see the kingdom of God (John 3:3).

    “Why should I need to make any bargain with such a murderous, vicious creature as your Creator is presented in your bible as being?”

    Oscar, what kind of “bargain” do you think you could possibly make with a Creator?

    And since you feel the Creator is murderous and vicious, then I suppose we can take that as meaning that you do not desire His presence but His absence.

    OK. Absence of the Creator’s presence is death. Nuff said.

    As John went on to say, “The nature of judgment is this: that the Light has come into the world, but people have loved the darkness rather than the light.” He allows us to have what we want, be it darkness or light.

    But no loss to you. Eternal death is what you guys believe in anyway, right?

  • Shawnie5

    Telling others that their comments are “as welcome as a turd in a punchbowl” might well appear mellow and reasonable to people like yourself who have contributed nothing BUT insults in your time here (Larry at least has contributed ideas some ideas that are not insults), but this is not how civilized and intelligent people discourse.

  • Oscar

    No, Shawnie5, no one is in that kingdom simply because that “kingdom” does not exist. Never has, never will. If you still claim otherwise, then present the modern, testable evidence for it. Hint: there isn’t any.

    It is also plain according to your bible that your god is murderous and vicious, on the scale of killing entire peoples. It is not simply that I “feel” that to be the case, but rather that your bible plainly states that to be the case -a horrifyingly vengeant mass killer beyond the worst human ones! Your god is clearly stated, in your mythbook known as the bible, to have killed entire peoples.

    Now, I would like you to retract the lie that you made earlier. It is absurd and false for you to state for me that I, or others generally, want death the most. Please retract your obvious lie in that regard.

    I’m not going to let you get away with that lie. Retraction please.

  • Shawnie5

    I will retract nothing. There is, quite simply, no life apart from the Creator. You want to be separated from the Creator. That equals death in its most unadulterated sense. Case closed.

    You can not see the Kingdom because you are not born of the Spirit. The Kingdom is God’s work of restoration on this earth, operating through His people. God calls the citizens of His kingdom out of every corner of this fallen world to a higher loyalty and mission. His kingdom broke the power of Rome and overcame every evil thing that Rome could muster to stamp it out, and from there went on to carry to all parts of the world the never-before known concept of inherent human dignity and worth, fundamental equality, and freedom which all the efforts of fallen man have never been able to snuff out since. Even people like you continue to pay a certain homage to the kingdom without realizing it.

    Aptly did Daniel describe the Messiah and His kingdom as the “stone cut without hands” which smashed the power of all the kingdoms which came before it, and became a great mountain that filled the whole earth.

  • Shawnie5

    That tells me you haven’t been around very long nor read very thoughtfully, Phil. Your contribution here has been limited to following Jack around. Stick around and you’ll see a lot more vulgarity and bile from your camp.

  • Shawnie5

    The entire RNS site is the “support of my claim.” You’re simply a newbie with nothing to contribute who by admission thinks that “a turd in a punchbowl” is mellow and reasonable talk. That says all anyone needs to know about you.

    If we consider not numbers but proportions, you are by far the most insulting poster. You have contributed nothing else EXCEPT insults.

  • Ming Qua

    Thanks, Shawnie5, for acknowledging that you can’t support your claims. There are no specific pages that you are able to cite thus far. And stop trying to change the subject. You’re still on the hook:

    Again, my claims are supported simply by reading and comparing Jackie and Larry’s comments on this present page. Jackie’s posts clearly contain more insults and otherwise demeaning remarks per post.

  • Shawnie5

    You have a very myopic view of history, Oscar. As far as science goes, we OWE modern science to men of faith searching for the natural laws of a perfect, rational, and unchanging creator. And as far as social advances go…were it not for Christianity we would not even be having this discussion because you would see nothing horrifying about loss of human life, so long as it was the “other.” The ancients certainly didn’t. This is what I mean when I say you pay homage to the Kingdom without realizing it. The only modern atheist who had the guts not to do that was Nietzsche. The rest of you are blithely and unwittingly sailing along on the coattails of the Kingdom.

    And you had no point to rebut, other than “I don’t wanna die.”. The problem is that you don’t understand what death is. You seem to be under the impression that there could be some intermediate state where life is but God is not. There isn’t. If you reject the Creator, you reject life. No retraction.

    You’re not completely getting it, but it would appear I’ve struck a nerve. Good. You need to wake up and think a little.

  • Shawnie5

    Ok, Phil. Give mama her phone back and night-night.

  • Shawnie5

    Separation from Creator = no life. No retraction and no apologies.

    Bye, Oscar. And take a chill pill.

  • Ming Qua

    And now Shawnie5 is back to slinging insults. Par for the course.

    Shawnie5, thanks for acknowledging that you can’t support your claims. There are no specific pages that you are able to cite thus far. And stop trying to change the subject. You’re still on the hook:

    Again, my claims are supported simply by reading and comparing Jackie and Larry’s comments on this present page. Jackie’s posts clearly contain more insults and otherwise demeaning remarks per post.

  • Oscar

    Shawnie5, it is plain according to your bible that your god is murderous and vicious, on the scale of killing entire peoples. It is not simply that I “feel” that to be the case, but rather that your bible plainly states that to be the case -a horrifyingly vengeant mass killer beyond even the worst human ones! Your god is clearly stated, in your mythbook known as the bible, to have killed entire peoples.

    Now, I would like you to retract the lie that you made earlier. It is absurd and false for you to state for me that I, or others generally, want death the most. Please retract your obvious lie in that regard.

    I’m not going to let you get away with that lie. Retraction please.

  • Ming Qua

    Jack, obviously, the evil entities that Charles is referencing are your nasty deity and Noah. And that horrid mass killing is what they are said to have done, in your horrid Christian holy book. Maybe you should actually read it; apparently you have not done so yet!.

  • Ming Qua

    Kaching! Another insult from nasty Jackie5!

  • Ming Qua

    And there is yet another insult from nasty Jackie5!

  • Ming Qua

    Kaching! Another putdown from nasty Jackie5!

  • Charlie Yanaitis

    From the article: “Davis said Young Skeptics, which will launch next week, expects about 20 children to attend the first meeting”

    2 children showed up:

    http://www.13wham.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/young-skeptics-club-first-meeting-19309.shtml

  • Marian

    Worthless? Who made you the judge of what anyone else but you believes? I am not Atheist but will defend anyone’s right to be so if it is right for them.

  • Actually, I was asked how many kids were at the Good News Club meeting we attended prior to launching. I said about 20. Unsurprisingly, they mixed it up after the fact. There was no way to know how many kids were signed up when this interview took place. We had 2 kids at the first meeting and 7 at the next. We expect even more at our third meeting, since a lot of positive word is spreading about the group.