Hundreds of Duke students rally with Muslims at Friday’s call to prayer

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Students rally outside Duke Chapel at Duke University after school officials canceled the Friday call to prayer for Muslim students, which was to be broadcast from the chapel's iconic bell tower. RNS photo by Yonat Shimron.

Students rally outside Duke Chapel at Duke University after school officials canceled the Friday call to prayer for Muslim students, which was to be broadcast from the chapel's iconic bell tower. RNS photo by Yonat Shimron.

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DURHAM, N.C. (RNS) The call to prayer was broadcast from a boxy public address system at the foot of the chapel, first in English, spoken by a woman, then in Arabic, recited in the familiar sing-song chant.

  • Phil

    It was so heartfelt to see the students’ reactions: the gay boys, the lesbian girls, the transgenders, the fornicators, those who drink liquor, and eat pig are so enamored with the Prophet Muhammad. They must have taken the time to read the Quran and understand that they are not living a holy life with their fornicating and drunken behavior, and liberal ways.
    I would recommend full immersion in Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Iran, to get a better appreciation of the Faith. There is nothing like first hand experience to better reflect on what you do and say!
    As they say in the Christian faith, “Praise God”; in the Muslim faith, “Allahu Akbar!”
    PS All religions have their place; just as in America, separation of Church and State should mean something.

  • Fran

    They were probably praying to different gods at the same time.

  • Larry

    Oh no, we must burn them at the stake!!

  • Fran

    They were probably praying to different gods at the same time. The god, Allah, does not have a son, and those who worship Allah believe that Jesus was only a “messenger”.

    The only true God, whose name is Jehovah (Psalm 83:18), has a son by the name of Jesus, who is the King of his heavenly government (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 4:17).

    Allah has no provisions to take the sin of mankind away, but the true God, Jehovah, loved the world of mankind, that He gave his only-begotten son, Jesus, as a ransom sacrifice for all mankind (John 3:16).

    Therefore, we humans can now enjoy forgiveness of sins through that ransom sacrifice. We can also look forward to, in the near future, enjoying stupendously, everlasting life on earth (John 17:3); as well as Jesus’ upcoming 1,000-yr. rule (Isaiah 11:1-9), to accomplish his Father’s purpose.

    Gus’s kingdom will also put an end to all sickness, disease, old age and death (Revelation 21:1-4). Allah does not have the promise, nor the means, nor the love of mankind to do so,

    And yes, Phil, there should be separation of church and state, with our allegiance going to one or the other. Yet, many religions still get involved in politics and/or war. Go figure!!! (I have never voted, am 60 years young, and never will!!

  • Fran

    Oops… God’s kingdom, not “Gus’s kingdom” in my post, correcting my typo!

  • John W

    I wish that just a journo would actually look up Allahu Akbar rather than just repeat the lazy mantra that it means God is Great. It means no such thing.

    In Arabic the phrase can be either a comparative (“Allah is greater”) or a superlative “Allah is greatest.” Either way it is intended as a provocation with the intent of denigrating other religions & asserting the supremacy (and ultimate victory) of the Islamic God.

    Rather different from the anodyne “God is Great” then. And not unreasonable in my view that it not be proclaimed from a place dedicated to Christian worship.

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  • Gus

    I’m much greater than your god, because I actually exist.

    And so do many other Gus’s. We are typically great guys, and unlike your god we typically don’t threaten to kill you if you don’t worship us and don’t sacrifice a poor lamb for us daily. We won’t ask you to kill a son for us either.

  • Gus

    PS I took over your keyboard briefly and made you type my name just to prove to you that I’m really powerful. That’s way more proof than your god guy has ever given you.

  • Larry

    And your point is….?

    Christians denigrate every religion but their own on a regular basis in their actions, in their beliefs and in their prayers. See Fran’s comments for an illustration. So why should Islam be criticized for it? Oh yes, because there is always the Christian double standard. Privilege for me and not for thee.

    I wish people would stop trying to use the argument,
    “[fill in the blank] religion is evil, therefore they have no right to worship”

    It really shows a great deal of disrespect for notions of religious liberties in a democratic country.

  • Fran

    Gus,

    When God’s kingdom soon intervenes in man’s affairs to make the world the best place to live in, then you will “see” the proof of God’s existence, love, power and justice!

    Also, can you put an end to old age and death (Revelation 21:3,4) and resurrect the dead back to life on earth (John 5:28,29; Acts 24:15)??

    I’d really like to see that!!

  • Fran

    Larry,

    There is a BIG difference between true and false, just as there is a big difference between being pregnant or not.

    False religion will be exposed for what it really is, and truth about the only true God will be vindicated and known worldwide (Isaiah 11:9). I look forward to that taking place.

  • Karla

    Gus-Creation is proof. Read Romans 1:18-32. If you see a building
    you know there was a builder. It’s the same with creation. For you to
    say that all the world came about by random chance is being blind.
    Read Jesus among other gods by Ravi Zacharias and you can also
    check out the Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. God is very,very real!
    Only one God went to the Cross/died for our sin and that’s because
    there is only one God and that is Jesus/the God of the Bible. Bible
    prophecy like Psalm 22:16-18 and also Isaiah 53:3-7 all came true!

  • Fran

    Larry,

    That would definitely not be the loving thing to do; neither is there a place of fiery torment forever (hellfire) for the wicked ones after they die.

    There is just the common grave, where both the good and bad go after death (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10), from which the dead have a hope of resurrection back to life (John 5:28,29; Acts 24:15)

  • Larry

    But no difference between claims that one religion is true and one is false. Both have the same level of proof, nothing. Self-serving statements, blind faith and raging egos.

    False religion is always that of someone else.

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  • DeaconJohnMresnahan

    The irony is that the woman who did the call to prayer would probably have had her head sawed off in some Moslem countries for doing so.

  • What’s really ironic is that such an action would have no support from the Qur’an.

  • Larry

    The irony is that you compare life in the US to some of the most repressive dictatorships this side of North Korea.

    Fundamentalists Christians have such a bad case of jihad envy. The RNC chairman even compared Islamic State favorably to the founders.

  • M Young

    Hundreds. Hmmmm. Hey Larry the Smart guy. You guys, i.e., folks like you, who are come along ‘latelies’ sound like you know nothing of the history of religion or historical socio-economics/politics of Islam and have NO respect for others beliefs. (Although I expect your mouth will now engage and you will blather, threaten, point the finger of metaphor and discredit)

    But just so you know, Muslims’ end-game has always about restricting personal freedoms, denigration and subjugation of women and world domination through terror and oppression. Just look at history…all of it. Until then, I would as that you keep the spewing of your brilliance to a minimum.

  • Larry

    “Muslims’ end-game has always about restricting personal freedoms, denigration and subjugation of women and world domination through terror and oppression.”

    The same agenda as Conservative Christians here. The main difference being the Muslims do not have even close to the access to political power in the developed world. Its ironic to talk about restricting personal freedoms negatively when they are supporting the same.

    Look at history, all of it. Look at the world, all around you. The majority of “muslim nations” are developing world dictatorships. Crapholes. Even the rich ones like the UAE. Some of the least free countries in the world. Yet there are a handful of Muslim majority countries which are secular democracies. Countries which have religious freedom. You just want to pretend they do not exist.

    Most importantly, there will never be a valid argument for attacking one of the fundamental freedoms of our nation which begins with “X religion is bad”. Franklin Graham is a hypocrite,a liar and someone whose attitudes are more at home in those repressive regimes in the Muslim world than they are here.

  • Fallacy Spotting 101

    Post by ‘Karla’ presents instances of the Argument from Ignorance Fallacy, the Circular Reasoning Fallacy, and other common fallacies.

    http://fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html

  • Gus

    Fran, there is no proof that your god can do any of those things, whereas I can type on your keyboard.

    As for “soon”, thousands of years and still your god has never done a damn thing that can be proven. Why should we have to wait and suffer in the mean time? Your god sounds like quite the jerk.

    So, I’m still way more powerful than your “god”. And by the way, for Karla, Zacharias and Strobel’s books have been pretty thoroughly debunked, Strobel especially, who is basically a con man. Pick a point from any of Strobel’s “work” and you’ll find it countered solidly.

    Fran and Karla, start your steps away from your religious delusion here:
    http://www.caseagainstfaith.com/

  • Fran

    Larry,

    There is definitely a humongous difference between the hellfire doctrine and the common grave teaching from the Bible. It also depends on what the basis for the doctrine and/or belief is based upon, i.e., the Qu’ran, etc.

  • Gus

    Fran, I think you are completely missing Larry’s point, that being that the amount or degree of proof that you have (none whatsoever) is no different from that for any other religion.

    Sure there are differences of claims and story details for your particular religious sect vs. another Christian one, and major differences with Islam for example, but just like those other religions and sects, you have zero currently verifiable proof of what you are putting belief in. Zero.

  • Karla

    Gus-If Jesus was still in the grave why is there no body to be found
    and why would people who didn’t believe in Him/the Roman soldiers
    lie and say that the body was stolen? It’s because they didn’t want
    the Bible to be true. Creation is proof of God/Bible can be trusted
    because of all the prophecy that all came true with the 100% detail.
    Saul became Paul after Jesus was raised from the dead and Saul
    wanted to stop Christianity so why would someone who wanted to
    stop Christianity say Jesus appeared to Him if it wasn’t true/real?
    You can deny the Truth all you want but evolution is impossible!
    Read Romans 1:18-32. God/Jesus are very,very real! God bless.

  • Jon

    All hail LORD GUS!

    He actually exists, and has proven that he can take over keyboards! My keyboard is spread open to your appendage, oh Holy Gus!

  • Gus

    Not valid currently verifiable proof, Karla. Really, do the world a favor and look at your bible stories critically for a change. Seriously:

    1. There is no way to verify for certain today that any of that grave-resurrection series happened, and there are a multitude of reasons why the “grave” could have been empty, even that the wrong grave was looked in or used. You can’t prove today with modern verifiable evidence that any of what you claim, happened. All you have is questionable compilations of questionable multiply translated texts of questionable origin to go on. Also, the resurrection story is ridiculous and not credible for a god; why would an omnipotent being need to do all the killing and bringing back to life of a son to save us, rather than just do the saving without any of that? That is just one of many parts of your bible stories that don’t hold water when looked at critically.

    2. As for prophecy in the bible, that is also invalid as proof of your creation story. Anyone can predict that bad events such as floods and other ravages will happen, and enough malaise such as bad weather happens over time such that they will eventually be correct. No points for that. Which “prophecies” are you referring to: can you reference several predictions with dates and other specifics of events in the prediction, before the events happened, and that we can verify today were made before the events happen, and that we can verify happened as predicted? No, didn’t think so.

    3. We are now thousands of years out from the main claimed event of your fables. Still no evidence of your god showing his face again (or ever). Any reasonable being should take that as cause for doubt.

    4. Your god is described in the bible as having killed entire races, multiple times, and in bible tales has ordered his followers to do all manner of murder, torture, and other crimes to other people. Is that a being that you think you should worship and follow? I don’t, and I won’t. Your god should be incarcerated for human rights abuses. Enough!

    Think about it. Seriously. You’ll be doing yourself and the world a favor by getting past your delusions. Some critical thinking would serve you well.

  • Karla

    Gus-For you to say that the whole entire universe just came into
    existence by itself and the sun set where we don’t burn or freeze
    is just being blind. Many don’t want God to be real because they
    don’t want to be told how to live so they deny Him. Bible prophecy
    like Psalm 22:16-18 and also Isaiah 53:3-7 is/are very,very specific.

  • Fourth Valley

    Why are you so unwilling to equate the Christian God and the Muslim one?? The Aramaic word Jesus used was “Elah” which has the same linguistic roots as Arabic “Allah”. The Muslim name is closer to the Aramaic name then the term “God”, which is short for the Anglo-Saxon “Godan”, which comes from the Germanic “Wodan”, the name of a pagan god.

    You say he is “Jehovah” and not “Allah”. But Jesus did not use the name “Jehovah”, he used Aramaic “Elah”. Additionally no one knows how to pronounce the Old Testament’s “YHWH”, it is recorded without vowels (written old Hebrew lacks vowels, an annoying feature present in many middle eastern languages), so it seems like a leap in logic to me to insist the correct pronunciation is “Jehovah” without any proof of this, considering the mystery behind the True pronunciation of “YHWH” has been unknown since Moses first recorded the name.

  • Fourth Valley

    @Fallacy Spotting 101

    No…

    I by no means support Karla’s argument. Her logic is flawed and performs a leap to a conclusion with no intermediate logic, but the two fallacies you cite have nothing to do with her post.

    Her argument is that everything (example of a building) must have a creator thus the world has a creator, an argument she pulls from a biblical verse, but it has no circular logic, nor is she saying there is no evidence against her theory.

    Now, she doesn’t prove her axiom of “Everything has a creator”, so there’s one flaw in her logic. Nor does she explain how her conclusion of “the universe has a creator” proves Christianity in specific, but neither of these flaws are the fallacies you mention.

    Read up on these fallacies before claiming them. Just because an argument posted is deeply flawed doesn’t mean it conforms to a standard logic fallacy.

  • Fourth Valley

    I may not be Christian anymore… but I’m fairly certain that Christians also believe God is the greatest. That tends to be a facet of omnipotent monotheism.

  • Karla

    Fourth Valley-Jesus is the Messiah/the only way to heaven so I hope
    that you will return to Jesus Christ/the God of the Bible. God bless.

  • Karla

    Creation is proof of God and we are saved by Repentance and faith
    so we need to have faith that God created the world/died for our sin.
    Bible says Repent and believe the Gospel to be saved! God is real
    and evolution is impossible. Read Romans 1:18-32. God bless.

  • Post by ‘Karla’ presents instances of the Argument from Ignorance Fallacy, the Circular Reasoning Fallacy, and other common fallacies.

    Reference:
    http://fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html

  • ‘Fourth Valley’, no, the builder argument is standard Argument from Ignorance. “We don’t know what could have caused it, so we’ll invoke a builder”. She should have just stated that we don’t know. The references to the bible as proof of its own claims is a separate flaw, and is entirely Circular.

    Read up on these fallacies before claiming otherwise. However, what Karla posted is indeed deeply flawed. On that, we agree.

    Reference:
    http://fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html

  • Larry

    That is your opinion, you are entitled to it. Your opinion on the religious belief of others is of no relevance to anyone but yourself.

    Nobody has to care what you think is “the only way to heaven”. Nobody does.

    Fourth Valley is under no compunction to change religious views or cease religious rites in accordance to your opinion.

  • Larry

    This is why sun worship is so sensible. 🙂

    Nobody can dispute the existence of the sun. Nor is the sun’s role in the formation of our world and sustaining life/existence something which needs to be debated.

  • Gus

    Utter nonsense, Karla, what you posted, as usual.Note the following carefully:

    1. As Mr. Fallacy Spotter said above, you are just presenting an Argument from Ignorance re your latest “creator” spiel -just a common fallacy.

    2. State the “specifics” including dates of prediction in those bible chapters and verses, and then show the modern dates on which the predicted events happened. Good luck with that, though; there is no such thing in your bible, not in Psalms nor anywhere else. Anyone can predict that bad events such as floods and other ravages will happen, and enough malaise such as bad weather happens over time such that they will eventually be correct. No points for that.

    Again, state the dates other specifics of events in the prediction, before the events happened, such that we can verify today that they were made before the events happened and that the events happened as predicted. Good luck, since no one else has succeeded!

    And again,
    3. There is no way to verify for certain today that any of that grave-resurrection series happened, and there are a multitude of reasons why the “grave” could have been empty, even that the wrong grave was looked in or used. You can’t prove today with modern verifiable evidence that any of what you claim, happened. All you have is questionable compilations of questionable multiply translated texts of questionable origin to go on. Also, the resurrection story is ridiculous and not credible for a god; why would an omnipotent being need to do all the killing and bringing back to life of a son to save us, rather than just do the saving without any of that? That is just one of many parts of your bible stories that don’t hold water when looked at critically.

    4. We are now thousands of years out from the main claimed event of your fables. Still no evidence of your god showing his face again (or ever). Any reasonable being should take that as cause for doubt.

    5. Your god is described in the bible as having killed entire races, multiple times, and in bible tales has ordered his followers to do all manner of murder, torture, and other crimes to other people. Is that a being that you think you should worship and follow? I don’t, and I won’t. Your god should be incarcerated for human rights abuses and worse, if your bible tales were true. Enough!

    Think about it. Seriously. You’ll be doing yourself and the world a favor by getting past your delusions. Some critical thinking would serve you well.

  • Gus

    Also, Karla, Isaiah 53:3-7 and Psalm 22:16-18 have no predictions whatsoever about modern events and actually have no dates in them at all. You are apparently a liar in that regard, Karla, or else you do not even know your own bible.

    See e.g. http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Ps22.16-18. No dates there at all. And furthermore, as usual, the translation is in question: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2012/09/failed-prophecy-psalm-22/

    We can soundly reject your claims about prediction in the bible.

  • Atheism Smells Bad

    Ah, nothing like the pinheaded nature of secularism on display. Nothing as close minded as the enlightened freethinker. Homogenized independents all in the exact same row.

  • Karla

    Gus-Psalm 22:16-18 and Isaiah 53:3-7 are specific about Jesus.
    I never said they were about modern prophecy. Do some more
    research cause all of the Bible prophecy came true with perfect
    detail/100% accuracy. Many modern prophecies have come true
    and many are yet to be fulfilled so when they come to pass many
    will come to faith in Jesus because things will happen just as the
    Bible predicted. Evolution is a lie and impossible! God bless.

  • Atheism Smells Bad

    I wonder how many of those Muslims would EVER come to a “call to pray” if Christians were to invite them to a service praising Jesus our Lord and Savior?

    Oops, I forgot, NO Christians are allowed freedom of speech on colleges anymore.

    Never mind.

  • Atheism Smells Bad

    It is certainly sickening that all of the Muslim abuses going on every single day of the year is met – in the west – with Christian bashing via atheistic idiocy.

    A dog does return to its vomit . . .

  • Fourth Valley

    Well duh. Of course he’s the messiah, and of course I follow him, so I don’t need to return to him. He’s already with me. I’m just not Christian, because I think his prophecies have been fulfilled, whereas today’s Christians still wait for his second coming.

  • Karla

    Fourth Valley-What religion are you? If you aren’t a Christian and you
    don’t believe in His return and the second coming you are deceived!

  • Larry

    Cheap insults do nothing to show you are an intelligent person or someone whose views should be taken seriously.

    Criticizing secularism is rather stupid. Secularism is the basis of all religious freedom. The power to keep government out of religion and sectarian prejudices out of government. Your post is essentially saying that you opposes any form of religious freedom. Its ironic to accuse others of being closed minded with such an admission of intolerance.

  • Larry

    Karla, can you be a little more rude?

    All you have shown is that you are an obnoxious person with no concept of respect for people of other faiths.

    Fourth Valley’s beliefs are none of your damn business.

  • Fourth Valley

    @Fallacy Spotting 101

    Ummm, no man. References to the bible are ONLY circular reasoning if they claim its self-validity without proof. If she quoted a bible verse saying that Christianity was true, and said that Christianity’s truth meant the bible was correct, THEN it would be circular reasoning.

    But she’s citing a verse that attempts a proof WITHOUT using its own validity as a point of reference. It’s saying “God exists because [flawed reasoning]”. It’s not saying “God exists because this book is infallible”. Thus it ISN’T a fallacy.

    Take ANY philosophy book as an example. Let’s say OVERALL we believe Rene Descartes to be false. However, we can still point to his writings on “Congito Ergo Sum/I Think Therefore I Am” as being logically valid. Even if his writings are not valid, regardless of whether or not his writings are true, false, fallible, or infallible, this logic can work all on its own, and we can use it without needing to assert Descartes was infallible.

    Let me put it this way: IF she was using the bible verse AS proof of God existing, then it is circular logic. BUT the verse is not being used AS proof, the verse IS a (flawed) logical proof itself. She’s not saying “God is real because the bible says so”, she’s saying “God is real because Builder Argument”, the builder argument just happens to be contained in the bible. Am I making sense here??

    As for the builder argument being standard Argument from Ignorance… Eh… I can see how you could draw that one. I disagree slightly on that, though, but I can see how you’d say this was that fallacy. She’s saying “there must be a cause to the universe” and making a leap to “that cause must be the Christian God”, BUT she didn’t say “it must be the Christian God because we don’t have any proof that it was. It’s an unwarranted leap in logic”. She simply gave NO explanation from how we go from “everything has a cause” to “Christianity is the one true Faith.” It actually isn’t ANY logical fallacy because there is NO LOGIC whatsoever connecting the two points, see?? A fallacy is a flawed application of logic… so this can’t be a fallacy. She gave NO arguments and NO logic for how we get from “Everything has a Creator” to her conclusion of Christianity. 😛 You have to misuse logic for it to be a fallacy. If you don’t use logic at all, it’s just COMPLETELY ILLOGICAL. Something with no logic CANNOT, by definition, be fallacious!!

  • Larry

    “I wonder how many of those Muslims would EVER come to a “call to pray” if Christians were to invite them to a service praising Jesus our Lord and Savior”

    Happens on a regular basis in countries with religious freedom.
    http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20140416/upper-east-side/christians-muslims-jews-gather-for-interfaith-passover-seder
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O3z95kPDDI
    http://videos.nj.com/star-ledger/2011/09/muslim_christian_and_jewish_co.html

    Why do you hate freedom so much?

    “Oops, I forgot, NO Christians are allowed freedom of speech on colleges anymore.”

    Does Jesus tell you its OK to lie?

  • Larry

    What is sickening is that you want to act like people in dictatorships.

    That someone raised to understand ideas like religious freedom can be so mind numbingly ignorant when it comes to applying such ideas. You are an embarrassment to our nation and free way of life.

    What is the difference between Islamicists and you? You both believe in the same disgusting idea of entangling religious belief with government.

    All your insults do is show me you are not someone to take seriously.

  • Atheism Smells Bad

    A Larry,

    You’re righht Larry I apologize. There still are a few Christian Colleges left in the USA anyway. You know, where the Gospel is not considered hate speech.

    Like it or not pal, this article is about goofball college students doing something out of pure ignorance. These same “tolerant” non Muslims would be slaughtered in many, many, many, many, many places in “the Islamic world” with not one of those Muslims that WERE called to pray doing ANYTHING to stop their murder. This isn’t just hypocrisy, it is Neville Chamberlain-ism at it’s most idiotic.

    How’re things working in France and England with all of their so-called Muslim “neighbors?”

    Islam was started by Mohammad, who used the act of war to establish his religion. THAT is what Muslims did and do. Mecca was not invaded and taken over by giving the natives some beads.

    Bashing Christians may make libs and atheists feel realllllyy good, but it is a deadly mental illness . . . as Muslims murder people all over the world in the name of the prophet (who started the killing spree) and the god he and they worship, while the lunatics of political correctness are complicit in those murders. Even when it’s they that get murdered.

  • Fourth Valley

    Oh no!! Whoops, I wasn’t clear. As a Baha’i I do believe in his return and second coming. It’s just, as the book of Daniel records, we believe it already happened. In the 1800’s to be exact. So while we believe in the second coming, we are not waiting for it, as Christians are. It happened when Daniel said it would, and it came like a “thief in the night” just like the bible said it would. The prophecies were fulfilled, and so we’re no longer waiting. Well, not waiting for the second coming. We’re waiting for what comes next.

  • Karla

    Fourth Valley-Jesus has not returned yet and there are many false
    things being taught right now. The Trinity/theGodhead are real and
    there is only one God/Jesus is the only way to heaven! While on the
    earth Jesus had to submit to the will of the Trinity/the Godhead like
    we all have to do if we claim to be a follower of God but now He is
    back with the Trintiy. Jesus said that I and the Father are one so
    while on earth Jesus was one with the will of the Trinity/Godhead
    so when Jesus says the Father is greater that refers to the will of
    the Trinity/Godhead while Jesus was on earth but now that Jesus
    is back in heaven He is co-eternal with the Father/the Holy Spirit
    as one God. One God with the three different parts but one God!

    Thanks for clearing all that up but I hope you return to Christianity
    because the anitchrist will come before the real Jesus to fool many
    and 2 Thessalonians says thay many will be deceived by a great
    delusion so we need to know the real Jesus/what the Bible says.

  • Larry

    But you do not apologize for making false statements and hurling invective without cause.

    Your ignorance and extremism is duly noted.

    As I pointed out to you and the rest of the ignorant religious haters, much of the “Islamic world” are dictatorships. Places where no religious freedom exists. To hold such places out for behavior to emulate is a stupid thing to do in a free democratic society. We are better than that. You should know better. Do you hate freedom of religion that much?

    The answer to religious extremism is not more religious extremism. You are part of the problem. Christianity is no less bloody than Islam. Christian extremists are a greater threat to the developed world than any Jihadi ever could be. Jihadis just kill people, Christian extremists try to dismantle our whole way of life.

    People like you are the best stooges Islamicists have. You confirm all of the propaganda they tell people. That Christians are just out to burn their mosques and ban their religion. That democracy and religious freedom is just a sham to give Christians power over others.

    Get it through your thick skull, THERE WILL NEVER be a valid argument for preventing the free exercise of religion which starts with ” ____ religion is evil”.

    I bash Christians and every other faith where applicable, when they bash things I consider important like civil liberties, education and sane behavior in the name of their faith. Freedom of religion means I never have to care about your faith and never have to fear being compelled to.

  • Fourth Valley

    Thanks, but I’ll take the evidence of the second coming’s miracles, the accuracy of his prophecies, and the timeline set forth by the Book of Daniel over the assertation sans evidence of one internet commenter that the second coming has not yet happened.

  • ‘Fourth Valley’, Ummm, no, the builder argument is standard Argument from Ignorance. “We don’t know what could have caused it, so we’ll invoke a builder”…. She should have just stated that we don’t know, but she claimed a creator on that basis. The references to the bible as proof of its own claims is a separate flaw, and is entirely Circular.

    Read up on these fallacies before claiming otherwise. However, what Karla posted is indeed deeply flawed. On that, we agree.

    Reference:
    http://fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html

  • Gus

    Karla, then you were just dodging the question because you did not reply regarding what I asked you about. Good though, that you acknowledge that you have no modern evidence. So, here we go again, but this time read more carefully and understand that I will yank you back to these subjects if you dodge again:

    1. As Mr. Fallacy Spotter said above, you are just presenting an Argument from Ignorance re your latest “creator” spiel -just a common fallacy.

    2. State the “specifics” including dates of prediction in those bible chapters and verses, and then show the modern dates on which the predicted events happened. Good luck with that, though; there is no such thing in your bible, not in Psalms nor anywhere else. Anyone can predict that bad events such as floods and other ravages will happen, and enough malaise such as bad weather happens over time such that they will eventually be correct. No points for that.

    Again, state the dates other specifics of events in the prediction, before the events happened, such that we can verify today that they were made before the events happened and that the events happened as predicted. Good luck, since no one else has succeeded!

    And again,
    3. There is no way to verify for certain today that any of that grave-resurrection series happened, and there are a multitude of reasons why the “grave” could have been empty, even that the wrong grave was looked in or used. You can’t prove today with modern verifiable evidence that any of what you claim, happened. All you have is questionable compilations of questionable multiply translated texts of questionable origin to go on. Also, the resurrection story is ridiculous and not credible for a god; why would an omnipotent being need to do all the killing and bringing back to life of a son to save us, rather than just do the saving without any of that? That is just one of many parts of your bible stories that don’t hold water when looked at critically.

    4. We are now thousands of years out from the main claimed event of your fables. Still no evidence of your god showing his face again (or ever). Any reasonable being should take that as cause for doubt.

    5. Your god is described in the bible as having killed entire races, multiple times, and in bible tales has ordered his followers to do all manner of murder, torture, and other crimes to other people. Is that a being that you think you should worship and follow? I don’t, and I won’t. Your god should be incarcerated for human rights abuses and worse, if your bible tales were true. Enough!

    Think about it. Seriously. You’ll be doing yourself and the world a favor by getting past your delusions. Some critical thinking would serve you well.

  • Fran

    Karla, who is Fourth Valley Jesus? Does he bring your hellfire?

  • Perry

    Karla why does a god even need a first coming? Or maybe your god is a porn star and she likes to do that a lot?

  • Gus

    Hey, I’m Gus the god and even I can go for some sun worship. With regular trips to some warm sunny beaches of course. And I’ll bless some cute worshippers who come along and rub sunscreen on my back.

    But what will the sun do about those bigger stars???

  • Fran

    These gods are not equal and the names are the same because they are borrowed from similar language for god that is like that.It is like calling a thing a thing but not all things are the same thing.

  • Larry

    “But what will the sun do about those bigger stars???”

    Here is where polytheism becomes very helpful. No worries about exclusivity. Its all one big family.

  • Gus

    Ah, thanks, Larry. Perfect solution.You mortals can be so smart…well, some of you…

    I’ll raise a glass to polytheism with my many new god buddies on the sunny beach. Do come join us.

    Cheers
    Gus the Newbie Deity

  • Ken

    @Larry,

    “I bash Christians and every other faith where applicable, when they bash things I consider important like civil liberties, education and sane behavior in the name of their faith. Freedom of religion means I never have to care about your faith and never have to fear being compelled to.”

    I bash the secularists that look so much like the Brown Shirts of Germany’s National Socialists Workers Party . . . but say they are enlightened freethinkers (libs, progressives, et al) and are nothing more than the typical unhinged licentious that have sickened the world for millennial after millennial.

    What’s your legacy Larry? Sexual perversion encouraged to be engaged in by children . . . drug use and porn addictions? Apathy so pronounced that the populace doesn’t even see each other as they never look up as they walk by their neighbors? Secularism is a mental disorder of the deadliest kind. But hey, Darwinism – The Prophet of the modern “person” means these losers need to be weeded out anyway.

    And of course suicide and drive-by gangsta killings aplenty.

    Ah yes, what a wonderful world is being built by the godless. Such enlightenment.

    Any you lefties call Christians the idiots?

  • Larry

    “I bash the secularists that look so much like the Brown Shirts of Germany’s National Socialists Workers Party”

    I would too if I could find them. But alas there are none to be found.

    There is nothing more brain-dead than equating secularism with atheism. It is not the same thing. Secularism is simply religion neutral government. It came to this country from the doctrines of the Anabaptist Christian sects. A preacher coined the phrase “separation of church and state” in the 17th Century.

    What whiny Christian fundies never want to acknowledge is that every minority faith and sect in the nation openly supports secularism. Its what keeps sectarian bigotry from attacking their ability to worship. To prevent the exact type of action and arguments Franklin Graham employed here.

    “What’s your legacy Larry?”

    The 1st Amendment being upheld in a free and democratic society.

    We know what your legacy is. All one has to do is look at Saudi Arabia and Iran. Where religion and the state are one in the same, nothing good comes from it. Arbitrary “morality” enforced by murder and repression. Education hobbled by dishonest irrational nonsense. Speech restricted out of fear of heresy or apostasy. The world you want to create is a heaping mound of excrement. Its been done before, it doesn’t work.

    “Ah yes, what a wonderful world is being built by the godless. Such enlightenment.”

    Yes it is. We have the only godless Constitution in the world. What’s the matter, you don’t like the United States? The 1st Amendment is too troublesome for you? There is always Russia. 🙂

  • RGD

    Could you please enlighten me as to which handful of majority Muslim countries you are referring to in your post. As someone who lives in an Islamic country and who has traveled to 78 countries of the world – I am still looking for that elusive citadel of religious freedom which you say exists in an Islamic country – perhaps I have missed it somewhere. You should make sure you know what you are talking about before your make such claims.

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  • Atheism Smells Bad

    @Larry,

    Comparing secularists to the German National Socialist Brown Shirts is completely appropriate.

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

    As you can see, Franklin Graham, a Christian, has no rights to free speech. Based squarely on the rantings and harassment of “so-called” secularists. Who of course are wearing a very flimsy sheep skin cover over their wolf desires.

    Like it or not, Graham is totally correct in every angle. Christians would be SUED if they even dared to do what the Muslims wanted to impose on every single student and citizen in the Duke area.

    This isn’t just about hypocrisy of “the left” it is a glaring example of the two-fold enemy facing Christians worldwide. Islam killing them on one side, and the proponents of secularized anti-Christian demands cheering that on while doing a new bashing pogrom.

    Graham is the hero here. Not the intolerant religion based on the dreams of Mohammad.

  • Larry

    ASB, you use the term “secularist” but obviously have no idea what it means. Your post is nothing but invective nonsense.

    You can’t give me one example of “secularist brown shirts” that doesn’t involve hysterical exaggeration and outright fictions. Conservative Christians like to pretend they are being persecuted when in reality they are just being told to follow the same rules as everyone else. As I said before, if I could find one, I would oppose them. But they are nowhere to be found except in the recesses of one’s imagination.

    A secularist is someone who works to uphold, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. The only way religious freedom is protected in this nation is by keeping religion from being entangled with government.

    Keeping the government from establishing religion through sectarian endorsement and upholding the right to right of people to exercise their religious rites in a reasonable manner.

    Franklin Graham and yourself defecate on such notions. The man is hypocritical scum as are his supporters. He only invokes free exercise of religion when Fundamentalist Christians are prevented from acting in harmful and obnoxious ways towards others. The man has no idea what the term really means. Neither do you.

    Free exercise of religion doesn’t mean that only popular and well respected faiths get a right to pray, it means ALL FAITHS DO. Civil liberties aren’t there to protect what is popular, they are there to protect what isn’t. To keep a majority from attacking a minority through their voting power.

    You think that you are entitled to tell people which religions should be allowed to pray and which ones aren’t. As if your religious faith is of greater importance than that of anyone else. That is more corrosive to religious liberty than anything Muslims in this nation have done. You want a Christian nation, one entangled with religious dogma, move to Russia.

    As I said before, there will never be a valid argument against free exercise of religion which starts with,
    “___ religion is evil!”

  • Larry

    Bosnia, Albania, Bangledesh, Kosovo and a case can be made for Turkey as it is a secular state (but not lately)*

    3 of those countries coincidentally were victims of modern genocidal wars over sectarian differences.

    *Turkey stands the only Muslim nation which has commercially produced pornographic films legally.

  • sudha

    These are the same Muslims without beards and their regular dresses. If not these must willing to get many more killed across US and UK by these Muslims and give away all that they have to these Muslims who at first shall come like innocent and descent but they are always the wolf in sheep;s clothing. Satan’s children who are come to destroy the mankind in the name of Islam.

  • Karla

    The Bible is clear that Jesus is the Messiah/the only way to heaven so people
    who try to say Jesus was only a prophet don’t make any sense because no
    true prophet can be revered if He is a liar so if Jesus wasn’t the Messiah He
    was a liar and can’t be revered or a true prophet so either He was a liar or
    He was/is the Messiah/the only way to heaven! Jesus Christ is the only way!

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  • Fourth Valley

    What MAKES them not the same?? The Koran clearly commands worship to none save “the God of Abraham”. If I set out to pray to “the God of Abraham” would the Christian God not answer?? Why on earth would you think he wouldn’t??

    Do Jews worship the same god as Christians?? How about followers of the teachings of Arius?? Where is the line drawn and why??

  • Veronika

    Larry writes:

    “Bosnia, Albania, Bangledesh, Kosovo and a case can be made for Turkey as it is a secular state (but not lately)*
    3 of those countries coincidentally were victims of modern genocidal wars over sectarian differences.”

    Nice try but I’m well versed on the ‘Balkans’ and let me enlighten you: the wars were not sectarian but were about the Serb regime in Belgrade with its cronies in the region controlling land. Period. If you think I’m wrong then please explain to me why Orthodox Christian Serbs were killing Christian: Croatians, Albanians, and minority Ukrainians, Hungarians and Germans during the 1990s wars.

  • Larry

    Well Vera, you are 20 years too late for your comment. Not a word you said disputes my statements that at present those four countries which happen to be majority muslim are also secular democracies. RGD was trying to be a smug b’stard and just showed he was a lazy one.

    Bosnia, Kosovo and Albania have mellowed out since the fall of the Milosovic regime and subsequent democratization of Serbia(Yugoslavia) in the late 90’s.

    Bangladesh was the site of Muslim on Muslim genocide in the early 70’s. Again, much mellower since then. Largely due to help from India.

    All 3 participants in the Yugoslav Civil War were divided not only by ethnicity but also religion. Serbs (Orthodox), Croats (Catholic), Bosnians (Muslim). Christian churches from the Serb and Croat sides exhorted killing each other and Muslims.

    “If you think I’m wrong then please explain to me why Orthodox Christian Serbs were killing Christian: Croatians, Albanians, and minority Ukrainians, Hungarians and Germans during the 1990s wars.”

    I know you are wrong. So far it has been a sure bet whatever you post is ignorant garbage. Croats, Ukranians, Hungarians and Ethnic Germans all being CATHOLIC being killed by Serbian ORTHODOX Christians.

    Catholic Croats and Orthodox Serbs have been at each other’s throats since the days of the Hamburgs. The sectarian differences among Christians helped spark WWI. The last forced conversion to Catholicism in Europe was by Croat Nazi collaborators against Serbian Christians in 1944.

    Are you done showing me how ignorant you are?

  • Larry

    After all the US has absolutely no far reaching history of Christian extremism whatsoever. This picture proves it. /sarcasm
    http://restoringpangea.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/KKK-Jesus-Saves.jpg