Parking spat as motive for triple murder? N.C. Muslims don’t buy it

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Deah Shaddy Barakat, 23, his wife, Yusor Mohammad Abu-Salha, 21, center, and Abu-Salha’s sister, Razan Mohammad Abu-Salha, 19,  far right, of Raleigh, were killed on Tuesday (February 11, 2015) inside their condominium near the University of North Carolina campus in Chapel Hill. Photo courtesy of Omid Safi

Deah Shaddy Barakat, 23, his wife, Yusor Mohammad Abu-Salha, 21, center, and Abu-Salha’s sister, Razan Mohammad Abu-Salha, 19, far right, of Raleigh, were killed on Tuesday (February 11, 2015) inside their condominium near the University of North Carolina campus in Chapel Hill. Photo courtesy of Omid Safi

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DURHAM, N.C. (RNS) The triple murders in this usually harmonious university town immediately took on a larger narrative of hate crimes against Muslims and charges of atheists baiting Muslims.

  • Religious Freedom is a human right.
    I am devastated at the sad news of these Muslims being shot.
    My heart goes out to the families – it is a shameful moment for Atheists if that was part of this terrorist’s motivation.

    It is a disgrace if Muslims are being singled out – if that is what happened.
    Every immediate effort must be made to protect Muslims in this community.

    Muslims have rights like everybody else!

    If the motivation was racism against an ethnic group that is a hate crime.
    If the motivation was Atheist Dogma – it is not only a hate crime but an act of religious terrorism.

    I have children in their 20s and this just breaks my heart.

  • “Others in the community said it appeared the police were trying to minimize the religious factor in the murder.”

    Atheists must stand up and denounce this act of Terrorism which appears to have been done in our name.

    Some will say “No true Atheist would do this” – but that is not correct.

    One form of Atheism – HARD ATHEISM – is a religious dogma
    which states that “God does not exist.”

    ATHEISM = “I do not BELIEVE in gods”
    AGNOSTIC = “I do not KNOW if god exists”

    Most well-known Atheists including Richard Dawkins, Bill Maher, Christopher Hitchens etc… do not go so far as to say they are certain there is NO GOD!

    The vast majority of Atheists are Agnostics. We do not claim certainty and we do not object to evidence if it should arise.

    HARD ATHEISM = “God does not exist” is a religious claim.
    It claims CERTAINTY and when coupled with FASCISM
    it is as dangerous as any other religious claim of certainty.

    It appears the shooter is a Hard Atheist and a fascist.
    The Atheist communities need to denounce HARD ATHEISM and FASCISM.

    I do.

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  • Jack

    A quote from the shooter: “Praying is pointless, useless, narcissistic, arrogant, and lazy; just like the imaginary god you pray to.”

    Sounds like the usual poison-pen Internet trash talk we hear from you, Max.

    New Atheists are the latest group to jump onto the trash-talking bandwagon.

    While I don’t expect you to go out and do something drastic, I never thought anything good could come out of trash-talking anywhere by anyone. There’s no need for it….It convinces no one of anything….and the same points can be made in a civil way.

    But I realize I’m probably talking to a wall….

  • Jack,

    “I never thought anything good could come out of trash-talking anywhere by anyone. There’s no need for it…”

    If only you could look at your own dogma.
    It is not so different from fascists you complain about.

    “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs…”
    JESUS (Matthew 7:6)

    That is dehumanizing cruelty.

    The killer of these poor people today was such a dehumanizing monster.
    He put his ideas ahead of human beings – exactly as Jesus does !

    “have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.” (2 Thessalonian 3:14)

    The killer did not care about the rights of humans.

    “If anyone does not love the Lord, let that person be cursed!” (1 Corinthians 16:22)

    The killer of these poor young Muslims was as rotten and awful as Jesus.

    The Atheist Killer of this morning was exactly like Jesus and Allah. Dehumanizing and cruel and full of empty claims.

    I’m different. I’m 100% for the rights of humanity.
    And humanity must abandon fascist, dogmatic cruelties.

    You have every right to believe these things which Jesus said.
    God may exist – I never said it was impossible.
    I defend your right to it.

    It is not a good day for Anti-Theists.
    But that doesn’t mean it is a good day for Jesus, Allah or any other fascist nonsense either – including Anti-Theist Fascism which I object to with all my strength.

  • Miss_H

    This is an utterly appalling crime. Let there be no mistake about that. My deepest sympathies go out to the family and friends of these young people who were so senseless and tragically murdered. That man should go to prison for the rest of his life. He claimed to be an atheist, but we should be exceedingly cautious about attempting to lay the blame for this crime on his atheism. Atheism is one thing, and one thing only – a lack of belief in a deity or deities. It is not a moral code, a political agenda, or a system of belief in any dogma. There is absolutely nothing about atheism that would encourage or endorse this horrible criminal act.

  • There is absolutely nothing about atheism that would encourage or endorse this horrible criminal act.

    You mean nothing you’d care to contemplate.

  • Larry

    Nothing to contemplate. A bad, senseless, act of violence worth condemnation. But I am sure you have some nonsense guilt by association or slurs about atheists being amoral hedonists you would like to share with the crowd.

  • Ron

    An individual uses hate speech against a particular group, then executes three people. If this person had self-identified as a Christian, the atheists who love to hang out on this board would have pounced on this as evidence about how wrong and evil Christianity is. Had it been a self-identified Muslim, others would have glommed onto it as evidence for how wrong and evil Islam is.

    But look how quickly the atheists here disavow that atheism had anything to do with these killings. Or that it’s the “wrong kind” of atheism. EXACTLY the claims Christians and Muslims make that the atheists here so arrogantly dismiss.

    This was a flawed, failed human being who happened to be an atheist, just as there are many flawed, failed human beings who happen to be agnostics, Buddhists, Mormons, Catholics, Methodists, animists, etc. While we don’t know the whole story yet, there seems to be a strong suspicion that he let his dogma control his actions for evil, just as many people have all over the world – religious or otherwise.

    Atheist Max, Larry, and others, please at least be honest with yourselves. Your atheism is just as much a religious belief as Christianity or Islam. If it weren’t, you wouldn’t haunt these boards “evangelizing” for your belief system. And just like any religion, atheist beliefs can be twisted for pure evil by twisted people. Heck, even strong belief in certain political positions or particularly strong loyalty to a given sports team can be twisted in the same way. That’s what flawed, failed human beings do, whether it’s in the name of God, Allah, Buddha, or Reason.

    Yet the true atheist believers continue to maintain that atheism is a force for good and for peace, while religion is divisive and evil. They will continue to dismiss any connection between their own religious dogma and this or any other evil act, while still maintaining that there are connections between religion and similar acts. They will continue to use the same arguments to defend their “faith” that they completely dismiss when used by others. They will continue to evangelize for their “faith,” while dismissing any others who do so as fools for being stupid enough to believe their own particular doctrines.

    Your hypocrisy, blindness, and self-deception are stunning.

  • Larry

    Except you don’t have statements from atheists or their organizations which regularly engages in this sort of speech. There is no scripture or dogma about dealing with a perceived enemy from atheism. There is no scripture or dogma at all with atheism. It rejects such notions by its nature.

    In fact the overwhelming majority of atheists, although opposed to religious belief or religion itself, respect a right in others to engage in such things. Many are on the forefront of movements which are designed to guarantee religious freedom. Secularism is the idea that all beliefs or none at all must be respected by our government. The association between atheism and secularism is so obvious that many a fundamentalist Christian confuses the two either by design or accident. .

    Max is pretty good about demonstrating how hateful speech and hateful actions are associated with religious belief. But with atheism you are dealing with the lack of belief. Something which doesn’t have scripture, set belief systems or even a structure to it which can be hung on it in such a manner.

    If you can show me where some figure who is respected as a proponent of atheism supports such behavior, you could throw the equivalency argument around. Religious texts abound with such pronouncements.

    “there seems to be a strong suspicion that he let his dogma control his actions for evil,”

    What dogma are you referring to?

    You claim there is some atheist dogma, but the fact of the matter is, it does not exist. You are simply projecting for the purposes of making a false equivalence here.

  • Miss_H

    I see no evidence for supernatural deities. Therefore, I’m going to murder several people over a parking dispute. Yes, it all makes perfect sense.

    Or wait. Maybe there’s another possibility. Threats and killings over neighborhood disputes are not uncommon. Some people have explosive tempers. Sometimes those tempers are exacerbated by mental illness, or drug or alcohol use. When people with explosive tempers are armed, the chances they will cause injury or death to others around them increase alarmingly, and it could occur over anything – even something as mundane as a parking dispute. No, that makes no logical sense whatsoever.

  • Miss_H

    Atheism is not a “belief”. “I see no credible evidence for supernatural deities.” That is not a “belief” statement. I also see no credible evidence for the existence of leprechauns. That’s not a “belief” statement either. The list of things I see no evidence for could be considered endless, and none of them can be considered “beliefs”.

    It remains to be seen what this man’s motivations were for gunning down his neighbors in cold blood, and I welcome an exceedingly thorough investigation. (I understand the FBI is now involved, and I’m glad to hear it.) But at this point, what evidence can you present to support your suggestion that this in any way related to atheism? Atheism makes no statements about religions, it neither endorses nor condemns any particular behaviors, and there is only one thing atheists share in common with each other – a lack of belief in deities. That’s it – the sum total of atheism. It may be that this man was an anti-theist – someone who is against religions, but that’s different from atheism. Some religious people are anti-theist – towards all religions but their own. I would suggest that leaping to conclusions and attempting to demonize atheists is a very bad idea, and reflects shoddy and bigoted thinking.

  • The Great God Pan

    Atheism is not a religion any more than theism is. Christianity, Islam and Judaism are religions, but theism itself is not. Neither is atheism.

    As such, atheist reactions to this crime cannot really be compared to religious reactions to religious crimes. Religious criminals justify their crimes with references to their religion’s scripture. When religious believers deny that a particular crime was motivated by religion, they are ignoring the scripture that called for the crime to be committed.

    Atheism, on the other hand, has no scripture, no doctrine, no rituals. Craig Stephen Hicks cannot point to the passage in the 3,000 year old Book of Atheism that commands atheists to kill neighbors who believe in God, because the Book of Atheism doesn’t exist. And he obviously can’t say, “God wanted me to do it.” Atheism cannot justify murder in the way that religion can. Any attempt to justify a murder with atheism will be hollow. Atheism ultimately places all responsibility on the self, not on a puppetmaster deity whose call to dance must be heeded.

  • Sondra

    Seems that ONLY muslims, deviants and black people matter!
    Who cares about this story?
    All muslims i have encountered have been in my face provacative and belligerent. They make demands that no other group makes (other than deviants and black people).
    There is more to this story that is being reported….
    You can count on this.
    Not a tear to shed over people who constantly whine about mistreatment. If people are weary of muslims it is because they spend more time complaining about America than they do complaining about ISIS killing our people.
    Screw them!

  • Sondra

    Do you feel such sympathy for christians in the USA? How about the thousands of christians being killed by muslims, both presently and during the crusades? muslims beheaded and ravaged christian nations during the crusades and are now blamed for defending themselves.
    Unless you believe that christians should be able to refuse to bake a cake for deviant “weddings”, you dont believe in religious liberty
    muslims will be the end of liberty in America.

  • Larry

    “Seems that ONLY muslims, deviants and black people matter!
    Who cares about this story?”

    So obviously you don’t care about the lives of such people. Only white Christians need to be considered, right?

  • Art,

    “You mean nothing you’d care to contemplate.”

    My response is the same whether the killer is a Stalinist Hard Atheist, Islamic Fundamentalist or Vegetarian Activist:

    “Beware the fascists with guns
    who enforce claims of certainties.”

    Atheism is the lack of belief in a god – not the claim the God is impossible.
    It is an AGNOSTIC, harmless, UNCERTAIN position regarding god.
    It makes no claims.

    However, “There is no God” is a religious claim. It is unprovable, dogmatic Hard Atheism. Add a fascist to enforce it
    and it is the same sort of evil we see in other religious dogmatic claims.

    Religion is dangerous because it is a set of dogmatic unprovable claims declared with absolute certainty to be true. It only takes a little Fascism to make it deadly.

    This Hard Atheist in Chapel Hill fits that description.

    Atheism is Agnostic.
    It is an acceptance of uncertainty and the absence of dogma.

    It should be reassuring to religious people that this Atheist TERRORIST Killer will be quickly condemned and sent away for life.
    This was a genuine act of religious persecution in America.
    And it is despicable, hateful and evil.

    Christians, take note.
    Gay marriage is not religious persecution. What this Atheist Terrorist did was genuine religious persecution. And I’m sure you will agree there is no comparison.

  • @Ron,

    “Your hypocrisy, blindness, and self-deception are stunning.”


    “Beware the fascists with guns
    who enforce claims of certainties.”
    – Atheist Max

    Any idea – even LOVE – can be dangerous if it becomes FASCIST.


    Just because one is a Vegetarian
    doesn’t mean he wants to shoot people who aren’t.
    Vegetarians have no such policy.

    The person to fear is the Fascist Vegetarian who enforces
    his opinion on the rest of us with murder.

    The enemy is not the Vegetarian.
    There is nothing about being a Vegetarian that dictates killing non-Vegetarians.
    However, the Fascist is the enemy – he kills to enforce his opinion.

    Atheism is also harmless – it is an opinion that God PROBABLY does not exist. Nothing about it dictates killing anyone.

    But the Fascist deludes himself that his opinion is an absolute fact above reproach.

    Fascists kill the opposing opinions:
    Al Queda kills infidels, a Catholic Crusader kills Muslims, Nazis kill Jews and Stalinist Atheists killed believers.

    Fascism is the enemy – Fascism is what struck in Chapel Hill yesterday.

    Fascism claims some things are not up for discussion or mockery – it silences opposing opinions with physical force instead of arguing with words.

    Opinions must be argued, especially religion. No opinion is above mockery, this includes Atheism and Vegetarianism.

    But beware of Fascist bullies with guns and claims of absolute truth.
    Atheists or otherwise – Fascism takes no prisoners and allows no debate.

  • Larry,

    “You claim there is some atheist dogma, but the fact of the matter is, it does not exist. You are simply projecting for the purposes of making a false equivalence here.”

    You are correct about regular Atheism – it is Agnostic.

    But I think it is fair to say that this particular killer was a Hard Atheist and had a strong dogma.
    He declared “God does not exist”. That is a dogma – a declaration of a certain truth. It cannot be proven.

    “there is no god” – I frequently say this in casual conversation… but when pressed I confess I have no certainty regarding gods. I am, like most Atheists, an agnostic – as in, I don’t know if god exists and I don’t believe he does but show me evidence and I’m happy to look at it.

    That does not appear to be this Athiest’s approach. He had shut the door on the question and adopted a dogma.

    We must be careful to not say “No true Atheist has a dogma” – I think some do.

    Of course, taking dogma to the next step (which often happens with dogma) is where he went wrong.

    He became a Fascist and decided to kill people who thought otherwise.
    Whether it was prompted by a parking space or not, this despicable guy was eager to enforce his dogma (fascism) at the first opportunity.

  • Chaplain Martin

    Brother Max,
    My hear is broken over the senseless deaths of these wonderful young people. The more pictures of their smiling faces, the bride dancing, (I believe) with her father, and the good work that Barakat was involved with, the more I cry for their lost. Let us grieve the lose of their precious lives, and refrain from placing blame for a period on mourning. Max, I grieve as you grieve. You and others know by my previous comments that I’m a Christian by the experience of faith in my Lord. You and I hold no ill will toward each other even though we disagree.

    This is not a time to lambast any group, or make any disparaging remarks of any one. For we have all fallen short of the glory of God for some, for others the highest good we could be.

  • Chaplain Martin,

    I understand.
    You know you would never see me attack any group either verbally or otherwise. I denounce all violence.

    Our common enemy is fascism and anything which dehumanizes people.
    We struggle to understand.

    This is such a sad day.

  • Sondra,

    “Screw them!”

    You know not what you do. Even when I was a Christian I was a better Christian than you.

  • Larry

    But even then, there is no scripture or texts for a “Hard atheist/anti-theist position”. No stated dogma to draw upon and enforce. No manual to refer to in order to excuse behavior as “justified”. Not even a body of people to codify it. There is an ad-hoc, improvised quality to such belief.

  • Larry

    Even political positions that adopt such a stance like Communism had a lot more of a dogma and stated beliefs than atheism does. A manifesto, endless committees, forms of philosophical discussion, avenues of official discourse. It was a political party after all.

    Religion was always an open question when it came to Communists. Although it is popular by many to equate Communism with atheism it was not always the case. It all depended on political expediency. The main reason the Orthodox Church was able to reassert political power so easily in Russia today, is that they were actually revived under Stalin and Khrushchev.

  • “No manual to refer to in order to excuse behavior as “justified”.”

    I agree with that.

  • Seth Flores

    Ron, I could not have said it better. You’re so right in the atheists blatant hypocrisy towards all others except themselves.

  • Jack

    I basically agree with Larry that we can’t blame this on atheism, but I have noticed that some atheists in media are really beginning to crank up the volume against Islam, not just radical Islamism……sometimes going even farther than some of the Christian pastors who have gone fairly far themselves.

    If I were a first-generation Muslim American, and were simply trying to make my way here, I’d find the rhetoric occasionally creepy and even chilling. Granted, CAIR, the self-appointed Muslim civil rights group in America, tilts to the opposite extreme and tends to yell bigotry at the drop of a hat, but even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

    Especially some among the so-called New Atheists have said careless things that are off the wall about Muslims (not to mention others) and all it takes is one nut to get all worked up and kill innocent people, including innocent Muslim Americans.

    We need to tell the truth about the evils of radical Islamism and what’s even wrong with Islam itself, but we must be decent and kind toward the vast majority of individual Muslims who have done us no evil and likely never will. And part of that means being accurate and precise in what comes out of our mouths, even if it doesn’t get us great ratings on TV.

  • Jack

    “We need to tell the truth about the evils of radical Islamism and what’s even wrong with Islam itself, but we must be decent and kind toward the vast majority of individual Muslims who have done us no evil and likely never will.”

    Finally we agree completely.
    But how do you criticize religion without being labelled a hater of the believers?

    I have been trying to say that for a whole year at RNS and almost everybody calls me a bigot anyway!

    How do we solve this?

    I have been explaining for months that Muslims must be protected in Europe from the fascists who are trying to attack them.
    I have been explaining that fascist Atheists are just as bad as Fascist Vegetarians!!

    The enemy is not the believer – it is the dogma put into action – the claim that something is absolutely true and certain despite the lack of evidence for it.
    The enemy is the fascist who ENFORCES the religion (or dogma).

    That is why I don’t care what awful ideas people believe
    as much as I care about separation of church and state.

  • Seth,

    What hypocrisy!? I called it Atheist Fascism!

  • Jack

    Actually, Larry, if we assume that Communism and Marxism are for all practical purposes one and the same, then, yes, it is inextricably tied together with atheism. Marx was an atheist and believed it was intrinsic to Communism.

    That’s not to say that every self-identified communist who ever lived was an atheist, but when even the founder of Marxism believes they’re nearly two sides to the same coin, it’s hard to downplay the connection.

    The best way to see this is to realize that Marxism is truly a materialistic system of thought which starts with the premise that matter is all that there is to reality. Since matter is finite, so is wealth, and so if one person has more, that means everyone else has less. Hence the imperative of wealth redistribution under Marxist thinking.

    That’s just in the economic realm.

    Morally, if matter is all there is, then people aren’t good or bad — it’s their environments, biological and social, that merit these words.

    Politically, that means we don’t have to disperse power…..we don’t have to believe Lord Acton’s dictum that power corrupts…..All we have to do is find people whose environments have made them into great individuals and give them and their ideas absolute power….not just to rule countries, but to reshape humanity. Hence the totalitarian nature of Marxism.

    So yes, atheism and its flip side of naturalism and materialism are integral to Marxist thought and ideas…..

    Not every atheist has to be a Marxist…..most aren’t. But it is very heard to embrace the conclusions of Marxism without first smuggling in the premises of atheism.

  • Jack

    Max, do you really want me to answer that question?

    If you honestly do, I can actually help…..seriously.

    I’m rushed for time now, but I want you to post something in the near future — tonight or tomorrow — and then call me out and ask me how I would say the same thing you’re saying without coming across as bigoted or less than fair or honest.

    I will gladly do so….

  • Jack

    But understand what that means…..It means I’m talking to Max, not a Max billboard or an avalanche of citations and slogans……real deal dialogue where both sides engage in fair play… as well as I, and I as well as you.

  • J.C. Samuelson

    Sickening. It’s hard to find the words. It’s always like this for me when I hear of young people killed, regardless of explanation. But all the same, I want to know what that explanation is. I always want to know what could possibly possess a person to murder another. As Joan Didion put it, I always “look for the sermon in the suicide, for the social or moral lesson in the murder of five.” Or three. Or even one.

    It would be too easy to chalk a murder like this up to anger over something as petty as parking, and it’s impossible to ignore the context. Craig Stephen Hicks is an atheist and a murderer. His victims were Muslims. And while his Facebook invectives against religion don’t seem to rise to the level of violence he ultimately perpetrated, it’s pretty obvious he didn’t like Islam. Given how everyone sees the world through a biased filter, it is plausible the killer’s atheism played a role in shaping his perspective with regard to his victims.

    As an atheist and someone who has a hard time understanding the level of hate or even passion necessary to provoke murder, I can’t identify with Hicks at all. I may not believe in a god, but this says nothing about my politics or what I think or feel about humanity. Moreover, there are no atheistic dogmas I can subscribe to, nor doctrines to consult in order to discover the right or wrong way to be an atheist. This in itself speaks to my chief concern regarding atheism. I won’t go too deeply into that here, but essentially I feel atheism isn’t enough. It never has been enough. Not for me. So, although “atheist” is an accurate label for me with regard to my beliefs regarding gods, humanist is more descriptive of who I think I am. Hicks seems to have had different ideas, to say the least.

    Having said all this, I also feel that since Hicks identified himself as a member of my tribe (so to speak), I have to take ownership of his crime by asking whether his beliefs about gods – and mine – might have anything to do with it. It doesn’t seem that it should. But the near constant, poisonous rhetoric demonizing Muslims since 9/11 – including (but not limited to, by any means) the stuff Harris, Dawkins, and Hitchens offer in their books & speeches – could have integrated with his atheism, leading him into contempt for people like his victims.

    There is, however, one point that I think may get lost in the sensationalist media and our collective race to contextualize this incident. You will not see atheists celebrating Hicks as a righteous man, or worse, a righteous man gone wrong. I don’t know of anyone who would deny Hicks was a “true atheist.” Also, there is a large distinction to be made between isolated acts of violence and the kind perpetrated in the name of some cause, religious or otherwise. This is why I also regard our general tendency to make hay over a criminal’s religious affiliation to be misguided at best, and harmful.

    Knowing whether a perpetrator is a Christian, Muslim, atheist, Hindu, Buddhist, or whatever isn’t at all helpful for finding the root cause of a person’s motivation toward violence. So, unless a killer explicitly links his or her religious convictions to their crime, I try to ignore the temptation to follow the media and the many talking heads who bloviate endlessly about things they know little about.

    But here’s the rub: nothing will bring these kids back, and we are the worse for it.

  • J.C. Samuelson

    Forgot to add that the Foundation Beyond Belief established a drive to honor the victims. Deah Barakat was pursuing his doctorate in dentistry at UNC Chapel Hill and planned to provide emergency dentistry in Syria later this year, so all donations will go directly to support the Syrian American Medical Society Foundation, which was the organization he affiliated with. If you’re interested in donating (and I hope you are), go to:

  • It is all so awful.

    I understand a lot of what you are talking about.
    Damn sickening and sad that this happened – and I can’t help but wonder if this is how Muslims feel when Al Queda strikes innocent Christians – you want to say “He isn’t a true (fill in the blank).”

    But you are correct. Atheism isn’t humanism all by itself. And dogmatic Atheism is clearly very different from Agnostic Atheism, which is what most of us are.

  • Jack,

    Still waiting.
    How do we solve this?

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  • Jack,


  • Jack,

    I’m waiting….

    “self-appointed Muslim civil rights group in America, tilts to the opposite extreme and tends to yell bigotry at the drop of a hat,”

    How does one criticize an idea like Islam without criticizing the believers?

  • Bart –

    Your comment is despicable. Shame on your inhumanity.
    Human beings are not ‘scores’ on a card.

    These Muslims were the best example of what human beings can be. We should all be disgusted that their lives were cut short for no reason — This world is worse because of their needless deaths.

    This is not a war against people who work hard, support our laws, have done nothing wrong, or who believe certain things or who look a certain way!

    This is a war against damnable philosophies of DEHUMANIZATION
    such as the Islam of ISIS and Al Queda – the same sort of DEHUMANIZATION you just engaged in!

  • Jack,

    “do you really want me to answer that question?”


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