Losing their religion: More women join the unspiritual set 

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Nadia Bulkin poses for a portrait on the way back from grocery shopping on Sunday morning (Feb. 8, 2015) in Washington, D.C. Religion News Service photo by Sait Serkan Gurbuz

Nadia Bulkin poses for a portrait on the way back from grocery shopping on Sunday morning (Feb. 8, 2015) in Washington, D.C. Religion News Service photo by Sait Serkan Gurbuz

(RNS) Nadia Bulkin, 27, the daughter of a Muslim father and a Christian mother, spends “zero time” thinking about God.

And she finds that among her friends — both guys and gals — many are just as spiritually disconnected.

Surveys have long shown women lead more active lives of faith than men, and that millennials are less interested than earlier generations. One in three now claim no religious identity.

What may be new is that more women, generation by generation, are moving in the direction of men — away from faith, religious commitment, even away from vaguely spiritual views like “a deep sense of wonder about the universe,” according to some surveys.

Michaela Bruzzese, 46, is a Mass-every-week Catholic, just like her mother, but she sees few of her Gen X peers in the pews.

Nadia Bulkin wears a silver triquetra necklace she bought for herself. She said it is a religious symbol used by both Christianity and paganism. She said "I personally like it, because it signifies balance. I like the geometric appeal of it. It is also useful when I am questioned by very Christian religious people in Nebraska. They can assume it is the Holy Trinity, and I say, yeah, that’s what it is. Triquetra was used in this campy TV show called Charmed, about witches living in San Francisco, and I love the show! That’s where I first saw it. It sort of symbolizes my weird relationship with pop spirituality." Religion News Service photo by Sait Serkan Gurbuz

Nadia Bulkin wears a silver triquetra necklace she bought for herself. She said it is a religious symbol used by both Christianity and paganism. She said: “I personally like it, because it signifies balance. I like the geometric appeal of it. It is also useful when I am questioned by very Christian religious people in Nebraska. They can assume it is the Holy Trinity, and I say, yeah, that’s what it is. Triquetra was used in this campy TV show called ‘Charmed,’ about witches living in San Francisco, and I love the show! That’s where I first saw it. It sort of symbolizes my weird relationship with pop spirituality.” Religion News Service photo by Sait Serkan Gurbuz

“I have women friends who grew up Catholic who think my choice to stay Catholic is like I choose to keep believing in Santa Claus. They just don’t get what is in the church for me,” said Bruzzese.

“For me, Catholicism is a verb — it is the action of being in the world and trying to live the gospel,” said Bruzzese, who teaches theology at a Catholic high school in Albuquerque, N.M. Many of her students go home to parents who no longer observe the faith.

That fits with the findings of the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate, which tracks Catholic faith and practice.

In 1974, CARA research found 46 percent of men and 45 percent of women considered themselves to be “strong Catholics.” By 2012, both groups had dropped significantly on that question — men to 24 percent and women to 30 percent.

On the rise: Those who call themselves “not very strong” Catholics. That self-description by men climbed to 67 percent in 2012, up from 44 percent 1974. Among women, 57 percent said their faith was “not very strong,” up from 43 percent 40 years ago.

Senior researcher Mark Gray, director of CARA polls, sees “some evidence of a closing ‘gender gap’ but I’m not sure how to disentangle this from life-cycle effects. It may be as women age they become more religious or spiritual and men do not (as much).”

Another survey — one that asked questions about spirituality — found significant differences between men and women and marked change between generations.

unspiritual graphic

RNS unspiritual graphic by Tiffany McCallen

In the fall of 2014, the Public Religion Research Institute asked four spirituality questions as part of a larger survey on attitudes toward climate change.

Respondents were asked how frequently they sensed “a connection to all life”; a “deep inner peace or harmony”; ”a deep connection with nature and the earth”; and “a deep sense of wonder about the universe.”

Almost a third of Americans said these spiritual experiences were not a regular part of their lives. And each age group described themselves as experiencing less wonder and connection than the age group before.

While 49 percent of seniors (ages 65 and older) rated high on the spirituality index, only 29 percent of young adults (ages 18-29) did likewise.

And 44 percent of women scored high on the index but only 36 percent of men.

Bulkin scored especially low on those PRRI questions. “To talk about the attachment to the universe for me means thinking about science — it’s an intellectual connection,” she said.

Bulkin was born in Indonesia then moved to Nebraska when she was 11. Today, her mother, a self-proclaimed atheist, attends a Unitarian Universalist congregation. But Bulkin, a consultant in Washington, D.C., is more inclined to use her Sunday morning for a calming yoga class.

Nadia Bulkin holds a picture of her parents, Jan Hostetler, left, and Farchan Bulkin, taken in Indonesia. Her father passed away and her mother lives in Nebraska. Religion News Service photo by Sait Serkan Gurbuz

Nadia Bulkin holds a picture of her parents, Jan Hostetler, left, and Farchan Bulkin, taken in Indonesia. Her father died when she was 11 and her mother lives in Nebraska. Religion News Service photo by Sait Serkan Gurbuz

“Sometimes I do say I’m spiritual but not religious, but it depends on your definition,” said Bulkin. “I’m more an agnostic when I think about it. But I spend zero time thinking about it.”

Her male friends who do claim a religious identity are more culturally attached than religious, she said. “I know more girls who are religious Christians who struggle to find a guy who is the same.”

Juliet Vedral, 33, a pastor’s daughter who is active in her Christian faith, is enrolled in the Young Adult Life and Leadership Initiative at the Shalem Institute in Washington, D.C.

Vedral said her friends fall into roughly three groups: Religious (mostly women); spiritual but not religious (more women than men) and folks who are “not into it at all” (definitely more male).

At Shalem, most participants in its contemplative prayer and leadership programs are women “in the second half of life” said Leah Rampy, the executive director. Older women may have more time to participate, or they may be more willing to be part of institutional religion.

“Young people want their spirituality to be very personal, not corporate. It might be yoga or mindfulness or chanting but it has to be authentic and it has to work for them,” said Rampy.

This may be in part because “young men and young women are experiencing the world with less difference between their lives in the workplace and in education,” said sociologist of religion Cynthia Woolever.  “All the same forces that would move men toward the ‘none’ category (away from brand-name religion) are present for women, too, now that whatever fence was around women is removed.”

Woolever also points to the marriage rate as an influence in religiosity, if not necessarily spirituality. “It’s married women who go to church and they take their kids. Certainly single women go to church, too, but at a much lower rate,” said Woolever.

Protestant scholar and author Phyllis Tickle, 81, who has observed American spirituality for decades, also cited the changing cultural context of women’s lives.

Photo courtesy of Wyoming_Jackrabbit via Flickr

Protestant scholar and author Phyllis Tickle, who has observed American spirituality for decades, cited the changing cultural context of women’s lives.

Protestant scholar and author Phyllis Tickle, 80, who has observed American spirituality for decades, also cited the changing cultural context of women’s lives.

“In evangelical and even in some progressive parts of Christianity, women are getting very mixed signals,” said Tickle. “There is a view that a woman should be subordinate on Sunday, equal to men the five workdays of the week and Saturday is up for grabs. She’s told at home and at church the man is to be the ‘servant leader,’ but then she goes to work where she has to be as tough as the guys to succeed.”

Tickle called it “religiously imposed schizophrenia. My generation didn’t have the pressure to be the perfect wife and the perfect professional. It doesn’t leave you any time for spirituality — or any internal time at all. Whatever the female of the 22nd century is going to be spiritually, we just don’t know,” Tickle said.

When Bruzzese looks ahead, she has no benchmarks for how her three young daughters might one day connect to a Catholic life as adults.

“I hope they live lives of faith that reflect the joy and the liberation promised by Jesus,” she said. But how they express this, and whether they follow her and their grandmother into Catholic church pews as adults, Bruzzese said, “is not up to me.”

YS/AMB END GROSSMAN

  • Bob

    This is wonderful news, to see more and more people – women and men, and especially young people – leaving religious delusions behind, especially re the case of the delusions of the Catholic church with its fat Vatican male leaders in their silk dresses. This is great for our future. Finally, signs of progress beyond the silly old superstitions such as Christianity and Islam.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

  • Pingback: Losing their religion: More women join the unspiritual set  | International Christian Herald()

  • James Carr

    Why is it surprising that today’s women are less spiritual? The entire world has been infected by the false allure of humanism and material goods. Since no one wants to feel obligated to a higher authority, they easily dismiss the existence of God using the “evidence” provided by “authorities”. That way, sin is negated as we please. We convince ourselves that we are all good despite our forays into adultery, abortion, gossip, theft, and moral decadence. Unfortunately, women are equal to men in this category…

  • Thecla

    Religion, at least Christianity, valorizes traditional, stereotypical femininity–smarm, niceness, goody-goodness, and rewards women for traditional female activities. Better for traditional women than for traditional men, but worst of all for non-traditional woman, who don’t want to do church womansh*t–kiddie work, catering and rummage sales, and don’t fell any sympathy with smarm world, nice-niceness and Christian “compassion” and sissy-wimpy woman-crap.

  • Wallace

    “…no one wants to feel oblig[ated] to a higher authority…” That statement shows that you don’t understand non-belief. We can’t “dismiss the existence of” anything that doesn’t exist in the first place: there are no angels, devils, leprechauns, gods, goddesses, demons, fairies, or vampires in this world.
    We don’t believe that the supernatural exists, so the “higher authority” we use in our lives is our humanism. “Sin” is a religious construct, designed to manipulate and dehumanize so people blindly obey. Humanism asks “is this action beneficial or is it harmful?” If we do harm then it’s the *action* that we judge and have to atone for; we don’t dehumanize the *person* and call them names (e.g., “sinner”), we require that they either atone (in jail if necessary) or for lesser mistakes, apologize and do better going forward. If we want to live in a world that’s beautiful and peaceful, it’s up to us to behave in a manner that’s beautiful and peaceful. That’s humanism.

  • Karla

    Bad mouthin religion has backfired. Many are now spiritual instead of Biblical.
    It doesn’t matter how “spiritual” the person is if they aren’t Biblical they’re lost
    and headed for hell. We must be Biblical. We must Repent/preach the Truth!
    If you say you love Jesus then still get drunk,gossip,gamble,be mean and/or
    don’t bridle your tongue,have premarital sex/sleep around no Truth is in you!
    1 Corinthians 6:9-12 lists many sins with homosexuals so all sin is wrong like
    the jealous person who takes the Lords name in vain. Coveting is a sin that is
    listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-12 so all sin is bad. Luke 13 says Repent or perish!
    Bible says Repent and believe the Gospel to be saved! We all must Repent!

  • James Carr

    The comments above have been popular in the past and have fallen away because of their lack of substance. Sin is not a creation of religion, it is a well-grounded rationality of destructive behavior.The Church retains no stereotype of women being goody-goody and nice, since history has produced both the Margaret Sangers and the Mother Theresas..both children of God, albeit one lifting mankind upwards, the other debasing womanhood down to her ideal. Nature makes men and women different,, the Church reminds us that the difference is real, and necessary……yet equal in importance.

  • Karla

    bob-You are loved by Christ! God is real! For you to say that this whole
    world formed by itself where the sun is set so we all don’t burn or freeze
    is being blind! It takes more faith for you to believe this world came into
    existence all by some random chance. Read Romans 1:18-32. God bless.

  • @James Carr,

    “Sin is not a creation of religion, it is a well-grounded rationality of destructive behavior.”

    Wrong.
    Sin is a word which means “Against the will of God” – religion is the practice of following the will of God.

    “Sin” is a silly word and it refers to claims by a silly god. It means nothing outside of Religion.

    Sin is like a fish, it doesn’t survive outside of its own environment.

  • More women leaving religion – This news made my day!

    Not enough women have left this imaginary god
    who is claimed to hate them so much.

  • GOD SAYS FATHERS MUST BURN DAUGHTERS TO DEATH
    AS HONOR KILLINGS.

    “And the daughter…if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.” – Yahweh, (Leviticus 21:9)

    What horrible, despicable, terrible instructions!
    Think of how many fathers felt compelled to follow this hateful god.

  • James Carr

    Your whole comment is mind-boggling……..

  • James Carr

    Aaaaaaah……we survived it all quite nicely……try and focus on the Bible as a whole, and please don’t interpret it for yourself.

  • Larry

    Lets be even more brutal about it.

    Christianity and most religions extol women acting as inferiors to men. To not make decisions for one’s self. To exist purely for the whims and needs of men. To accept abuse at their hands as the natural order of things.

    Traditional religious belief is a violent straightjacket for women. Its no wonder more of them leave it behind.

  • Karla

    Max-Bible says God shall pour His spirit out upon all flesh sons and daughters
    so Christ loves women. Read the Bible how Jesus saved the woman who was
    caught in adultery and His relationship He had with both Marys one who was
    bound by demons. Jesus set her free/she stopped sleepin around. God bless.

  • Larry

    You have them reversed. Mother Theresa was the epitome of so many things wrong with religion. She extolled unnecessary suffering, supported oppression and actively worked to make people worse off.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/04/mother-teresa-myth_n_2805697.html

    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2003/10/mommie_dearest.html

  • James Carr

    Yes, you’re right, that’s what she is noted for.

  • Bob

    please don’t interpret it for yourself.

    Uh huh, James, you make that demand so that Max doesn’t come to the reasoned, correct conclusion that the bible is a fairy tale about a very vicious, spiteful, murderous sky fairy.

    Luckily, Max has already read the bible with a clear, bright, capable mind, and has realized that your god story is utter nonsense. So have a growing number of young people -again, great news.

    For that matter, why would a real omnipotent being need a book at all, to have its message present in our minds? Virtually every premise of the sick Christian superstition is ridiculous.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

  • Larry

    Riiight. But “the church” (Which church? There are 500+ of them. Many of them don’t share your interpretations of thing) considered the one who extolled suffering and torment to be saintly and the one who did much to improve the health of others to be debased.

    It kind of makes the judgment of people in whatever church you are referring to, rather suspect or completely bonkers.

  • Bob

    It has been clearly revealed that Mother Theresa was one horrid, cruel beotch.

  • James Carr

    Clearly revealed? Interesting….. how far did you have to go to find that biography?
    Did you know that Sanger, much praised by Hitler, believed in the euthanizing of the handicapped and the sterilization of Blacks?
    Perhaps she is the model woman……..

  • Bob

    There’s this new thing on the Internets called The Google. You should learn to use it.

  • Bob

    James, you are not the arbiter here, so don’t try to pretend otherwise.

    The contention here is essentially that Mother Theresa was cruel and caused severe and unnecessary suffering. References re her cruelty have been provided by Larry, and many more are available and easily found on the internet. Can you rebut what you have been presented with, or are you just going to continue making empty claims?

  • Bob

    Nonsense, James. Max is clearly not posting here about the bible because of fear. Max clearly knows that disgusting myth book known as the bible better than you do. He has shown his deep knowledge and understanding of it here many, many times. As for Max being “afraid”, no, the evidence all over this site shows that he bravely tackles the nonsense in the bible, and bravely faces the promoters of the horrid Christian myths here daily.

    Max is a very brave fellow. You should look up to him, not denigrate him as someone acting out of fear.

  • Pam

    Stephen, Josephine is a wonderful old donkey and we worship her and love her dearly, but she bears liquid spirits daily, not those of your long dead and rotted away Christ.

  • James Carr

    I will continue to make empty claims, as I know of no source that praises Mother Theresa, and I am the only one on earth that thinks she did any good. You lovebirds really painted me into a corner.
    Smartest guys here……..

  • James Carr

    No, Max is not well versed on the Bible, as I see……..and I stand by the impression that the Book spooks him…….

  • James Carr,

    “please don’t interpret it for yourself.”

    The Bible doesn’t come with a User’s Manual.
    It claims IT IS the user’s manual.

    Besides, who has the authority to say what the Bible means?
    You claim to have the authority to dismiss the Q’uran as untrue.
    What authority did you rely on when you did that other than yourself?
    Be serious.

    Religion is ridiculous.

  • @James Carr,

    “the Book spooks him..”

    Of course it does. Like all Holy Books, they command murder and destruction.

    If you are not spooked by the Q’uran, The Bible or the Book of the Dead you are not paying attention:

    CHRISTIANITY – “Bring my enemies and EXECUTE THEM in front of me.” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)
    [From parable of the Minas, the most dangerous words in any holy book ever written]

    JUDAISM – Kill ALL believers of OTHER religions! – Yahweh (Deut. 13:7-12)

    ISLAM – SLAY THEM wherever you find them…as Allah’s religion reigns supreme. – Allah (Surah 2:190-)

  • James Carr

    “me, myself, and I….”

    And this accusation against me comes without no personal vanity of your own and your own sense of superiority over us Atheists?

    Okay.
    Just don’t call your position humble or pious when you do it.

  • James Carr,

    Most ‘sins’ are not even bad for people.

    THE MORTAL SINS OF ATHEIST MAX
    WHICH WILL SEND ME DIRECTLY TO HELL:

    Sin #1 – I don’t believe in God. What harm is caused by this? Nothing.
    Sin #2 – I don’t love God. What harm? Nothing.
    Sin #3 – I have no faith in A Holy Spirit. What harm? Nothing.
    Sin #4 – I think the Holy Spirit is a sick joke on humanity. What harm? Nothing.
    Sin #5 – I commit Blasphemy. Apparently there is no God to be harmed by it.
    Sin #6 – I committed Apostasy. I was a Catholic for decades and now Atheist.
    Sin #7 – I commit Heresy in that I reject the Catholic teachings. Again No harm.
    Sin #8 – I reject claims of Heaven and Hell. They are ridiculous and immoral.
    Sin #9 – I am a Fornicator – consenting sex outside of marriage.
    Sin #10 – I put the Scientific Method ahead of claims about Gods.
    Sin #11 – I’ve masturbated a lot – harm? Nothing.
    Sin #12 – I’ve defied Authority of the Vicar of Christ. Harm? Nothing.

    None of these MORTAL SINS has hurt anyone – in fact all of them have done a lot of good for me and those I love.

    “Sin” is a stupid, useless word.

  • Bob

    Thank you, James, for acknowledging that you cannot support your claims that you have made. Have a good day.

  • James Carr

    I don’t interpret the Bible anymore than I interpret Shakespeare or Einstein’s theory of relativity……it is taught to me in the context of the author’s intent and the times in which it was written……..by experts.So your silly rants speak for themselves.Atheism offers lies to society, disguised as rationality. Sorry

  • Bob

    As usual, James does not (and cannot) support his claims, and the evidence visible in Max’s comments throughout this website counters James’ claims quite dramatically.

    James, you owe Max a retraction and an apology. Let’s see it forthcoming!

  • Bob

    James, stop insulting Max. Max’s posts are not “silly rants”, but often contain direct quotes from the nasty mythbook known as the bible. The bible does contain silly rants (and worse), but Max’s posts, and what he has to say, are generally sincere and reasonable.

    Again, you owe Max an apology. Out with it!

  • James Carr,

    “Max is not well versed on the Bible…”

    Oh, I think I am.
    I particularly like where God commands killing a sweet little bird to make some magic potions

    THE PRIEST MUST KILL A BIRD
    TO SQUEEZE ITS BLOOD IN A SORCERY POTION
    TO BREAK THE MAGIC SPELL

    “And he shall kill the one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water: And he shall take the cedar wood, and the hyssop, and the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird, and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times…
    But he shall let go the living bird out of the city into the open fields, and make an atonement for the house: and it shall be clean.”
    (Leviticus 14:33-57)

    🙂 IT IS A MAGIC POTION THAT REALLY WORKS!
    THIS IS THE WORD OF THE LORD 🙂

  • @James Carr,

    I don’t take anything personally – you need not apologize.

    I only wish the Bible were only acknowledged as a book of literature full of mythology – on that level I enjoy it very much: Ecclesiastes, Proverbs and Song of Songs are my favorite sections. But they are also rather Atheistic.

    Unfortunately the Bible is claimed to be much more than Shakespeare or Milton and I can’t let you get away with saying otherwise – The Bible alone claims to be THE WORD of a God.
    And that is precisely the one thing it very clearly isn’t.

    Bob,
    Thank you so much for your defense of my comments.
    We both share a strong dislike of these religious claims. It is sometimes very difficult to keep the focus on the terrible claims themselves and not the people who have fallen for them. You are doing a good job of that and it is great to see you reminding people of that key difference.

  • James Carr

    I will now…………..comfortable that I know more people less knowledgeable than me. Thank you for your revealing honesty, and God Bless you.

  • J.C. Samuelson

    Good for them, but oddly, I’m not sure what to think. For me, losing religion never was about simply cutting something out of my life. It was always about finding a better way of knowing myself and the world around me. Religion got in the way.

    At its best, religion can be profoundly humanistic because it provides a way of orienting ourselves relative to the cosmos and each other. At its worst, religion encourages tribalism and extreme hubris, putting human beings – often exclusive groups of them – at the center of all things. Either way, humanity’s quest to know itself in relation to reality seems part and parcel of our encounter with the universe. So in a sense it boggles – and in a strange way, inspires – me to know of people who elect to set this aside in favor of a simpler, more focused life.

    Having said this, dare I hope this trend, along with the general overall decline in church attendance & membership, helps diminish the dogma-driven politics of some politically active religious groups? Yes, I do.

  • I think its great if people, men or women, reject man made “religions”. I reject them too. What we must be careful NOT to do is reject The Father and Jesus and The Holy Spirit. Our only hope beyond the grave is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ who died for our sins so that we could live forever. There is a lot of static or confusion today but if you are looking for answers you will find them in Jesus Christ who died for you. Receive Him as Savior and Lord, turn away from sin and follow Him as He leads, and you will know God’s peace and promise of everlasting life. God Bless

  • Fran

    Wallace,

    What’s to be done about people who refuse to behave in a manner that is beautiful and peaceful, such as murderers, child abusers, drug addicts, thieves, alcoholics, etc.?

    What would motivate them to change and be humane toward others?

  • #1 I don’t believe in God. What harm is caused by this?
    You’re missing out on a good thing, dude.

    #2 I don’t love God. What harm?
    Maybe he still loves you. Ha ha, I wouldn’t.

    #3 I have no faith in A Holy Spirit. What harm?
    If you’re not going the right way then you’re going the wrong way.

    #4 I think the Holy Spirit is a sick joke on humanity.
    It’s small, is it?

    #5 I commit Blasphemy. Apparently there is no God to be harmed by it.
    He’s not harmed by it, you are, you just don’t know it yet.

    #6 I committed Apostasy. I was a Catholic for decades and now Atheist.
    You’re better off for now, hopefully you’ll find God on your own.

    #7 I commit Heresy in that I reject the Catholic teachings.
    Catholic teachings are themselves heretical and full of error.
    1 Timothy 4 describes the basis of these errors which are compounded with many others to give us the abomination of the Catholic Church. Augustine’s wooly ideas and Jerome’s tampering with the Bible itself caused a lot of confusion. Popes like Alexander and Innocent rivaled Nero in their wickedness. Sin and scandal continue to this day.
    You’re better off, dude.

    #8 I reject claims of Heaven and Hell. They are ridiculous and immoral.
    Whatever, at least you didn’t spell it ‘rediculus’.

    #9 I am a Fornicator – consenting sex outside of marriage.
    Some guys have all the luck.

    #10 I put the Scientific Method ahead of claims about Gods.
    God’s existence has been scientifically proven in a number of ways.

    #11 I’ve masturbated a lot – harm? Nothing.
    TMI dude

    #12 I’ve defied Authority of the Vicar of Christ. Harm? Nothing.
    Pontifex, LOL

    “Sin” is a stupid, useless word.
    So is “atheist.” Sin is crime. Beginning with the original sin there are 14:
    fraud (the serpent lied), extortion, robbery, assault, adultery, vandalism, murder, perfidy, desolation, desertion, apostasy, depravity, cruelty, and damnation.

    http://www.dominionstate.wordpress.com/w/

  • @Dominion,

    “God’s existence has been scientifically
    proven in a number of ways.”

    Except that you are wrong which is why 98% of physicists are Atheists.

    “#11 I’ve masturbated a lot – harm? Nothing.
    TMI dude”

    I totally agree – Masturbation is NONE of anybody’s business except for the stupidity of elevating this TRIVIAL NONSENSE to the level of ‘sin’. It is absolutely inhuman.

  • @Dominion,

    “So is “atheist.” Sin is crime….?”

    “fraud” – we don’t need a talking snake to tell us that our world would be worse if everybody was allowed to lie.

    “extortion” – we don’t need a 2000 year old book to tell us that stealing makes the world worse!

    ” robbery,” – Ditto

    ” assault” – sometimes necessary. Osam bin buried.

    “adultery,” – Nobody’s business but if you cheat expect to get cheated on.

    “vandalism” – don’t need to look in a 2000 year old book to know that breaking other people’s stuff is wrong.

    ” murder, ” – Don’t need the book for this either. Murder was wrong 4000 before the book was written and before Moses supposedly wrote ‘don’t do it’

    “perfidy, desolation, desertion, apostasy, depravity, cruelty” – Ditto.

    “damnation” – This is a made up word like apostasy. It means nothing.

  • “Sin” is a meaningless, stupid word.

    Bad things are bad. It is pointless to label them sins.
    why bring a god into a situation where he has no fingerprints?

    Antisocial behavior is treated for what it is.
    Crime and punishment existed before Jesus and the death of Jesus didn’t change that. Crime and punishment is still the way society deals with its backward idiots who have no feelings for other people.

    No Jesus or God is required.
    It should be a clue to Christians that the entire Judicial system functions without any adherence to religion.

  • The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing,
    but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

  • 1 Corinthians 11, 3
    But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ,
    and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.

    1 Corinthians 11, 8
    For man is not from woman, but woman from man.
    For man was not created for woman, but woman for man.

    Christian teaching raised the position of women. There was naturally a tendency to push equality with men beyond due limits. Paul is opposing this in a practical way.

  • Greg

    Fran, you have hit the nail on the head. In a Christian society, people for the most part self regulate; in a godless society, that is the work of the police-state that takes over control. For example, if I found the wallet or the purse of anyone on this site, with tens of thousands of dollars in it, with credit cards, SS card, etc., I would seek that person out, and give it all back, and if there were a shipping cost, I would pick it up. And I know Fran, you would do the same. Why? Well because it is right by God Almighty to do so. But in a godless society, the spoils would be divvied up. They can have their godless society.

  • Greg

    I guess it is easy for us to talk about women in our own day and age, but if I were a woman in the 1800’s or before, I would not want equality with man. Let the men do the rock breaking, the house construction, the barn raising, the ditch digging, the slaughtering, the butchering, the hay reaping, etc. Now, however, with our modern inventions, everyone wants equality. The truth, though, is women and men are different. We all need to get back to basics here, and stop taking swipes at the Christian churches that have viewed the beauty and wonderment of women in all its fulfillment, given to them by God.

  • Greg

    Bob, you should be ashamed of yourself speaking to Karla in such a manner; your name calling lowers the level of this discussion. To answer your question, Jesus was True God, and True Man. His Body, Soul, and Divinity were part of his One Being. And yes he could have snapped his fingers, but he did not, he suffered in his humanity, and because his humanity is united to his divinity, his sacrifice became an eternal sacrifice with no limits: The Son of God was sacrificed, the ultimate sacrifice, enough to atone for the sins of millions of universes, and more. But as for the lack of Faith in this world, I find it interesting that in the late 16th century, Mary apparently appeared to a nun, stating the following: “At the end of the nineteenth century and throughout a great part of the twentieth, many heresies will be propagated … In those times the atmosphere will be saturated with the spirit of impurity which, like a filthy sea, will engulf the streets and public places with incredible license…Innocence will scarcely be found in children, or modesty in women…There shall be scarcely any virgin souls in the world. The Christian spirit will rapidly decay, extinguishing the precious light of Faith until it reaches the point that there will be an almost total and general corruption of customs….”

    I think this utterance from heaven, four centuries old, is spot on.

  • James Carr

    Funny

  • Bob

    You’ve got it exactly backwards, Greg and Fran. Pathetically so.

    Belief in god or not, people self-regulate in modern societies. Our morals are independent of religious beliefs, as our non-sectarian laws demonstrate and state, or should, and rightly so.

    Also, religion just morphs to suit whatever is presently acceptable, or in the case of the more dictatorial religions, whatever a particular religion’s power holders, whether pontiffs or caliphs or other high priests/charlatans, dictate.

  • Bob

    No, the “message of the cross”, as told in the disgusting Christian bible, includes explicit instructions for cruelty to, and subjugation of women, and many other horrors. It is high time for humanity to leave the Christian myths and other superstitions such as Islam behind. That would be great progress.

  • Pam

    Stephen, “you’re an atheist so have no say in spiritual discussions ” is a pretty wimpy and flawed claim for you to make. Try it with different terms; it will help you get an understanding of why that is so:

    “Judge, you’re a non-criminal so have no say in prosecution discussions ”
    “Doctor, you’re healthy, so have no say in medical discussions ”

    and so on.Those substitutions are obviously not identical, but should help you out. I think you are just afraid that your beliefs can’t stand up to criticism, so you want to prevent criticism. News for you there: your fear is justified; your beliefs really do not stand up to criticism. In fact, your beliefs are absurd.

  • Stephen Lewis, festoon your quagmire. Within the indigenous parapets can be found novels and other grapes of paint. There is no caveat to the Klein bottle, and there will be no gold watch for the unspoken zero. Gobble the fertile gravel. Focus your nose on the test tube. Stay succulently upon your velodrome and fear not the coming of the essential kangaroo. Strawberries are your incidental chemistry. Present the fulcrum in advance of the gypsum cookie, for as the tree is combed, so goes the predicate. Expand quietly but do not relish. Whether or not you agree with the plumber, harvest away ye hearties. Kalabash in Friebourg but not in spanners while it’s raining. Bring out the mustard but flap flap flap until takeoff. Why would you say such a thing in the presence of the substrate? 64. 1112. Welcome to the new sandwich lumberyard. Bus stops follow movement, or do they? The impediment to your posterior is large but can be dissected with chestnuts. Obermeyer. Glasnost and shallot cookies will do the main job when a steamshovel is too distant for pomegranate.Don’t obfuscate the primary prenuptials with rasberries. Often, the pertinent cat presents fabled necessities in the parking chamfer. Realize your inner precedent.Triangulate! Save the best for the alligators. Serpentine. Indigo chestnuts. Give voice to your negligible garage. Walk with found yellow in the fold. Perish your underwear in the crescent.

    And remember, never pass up an opportunity to watch an elephant paint Mozart.

  • jason

    The prisons and jails are not full of atheist. Want to guess who?

  • Thecla

    Current versions of liberal Christianity–the ‘mainline denominations’ do not promote women acting as inferiors. That is fact: look at what is on the books. They also promote gay rights. They do however valorize a range of traits associated with traditional femininity–compassion, sentimentality, niceness, for men as well as women. That’s why they’ve been attractive to traditional women–and way they are becoming distinctly unattractive to non-traditional women who want no part of this ethos. I’m an old-fashioned feminist: I believe that the aim shouldn’t be to valorize femininity but to liberate women from it.

  • Larry

    Despite your claims of Christian teaching, The actual practice of Christianity in many sects denigrates them and treats them as inferiors who must defer to male authority.

    So what are the “limits” of pushing equality with men?

    Demanding they be considered as people with their own lives and decisions?

    Demanding authority and leadership over men?

    Please do tell.

  • Larry

    You act as if there is a lot of choosing involved with “traditional” sects. Its not the case. Such sects tend to increase due to demographic reasons as opposed to joining voluntarily.

    The system of keeping women as inferiors is self-perpetuating. Women in such sects forgo education and professional opportunities to marry young and raise more children to go into said sects. By using social pressure and coercion, they make it as difficult as possible for people to leave such groupings without exacting a heavy personal toll.

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  • Greg

    Bob: As far as God being omnipotent and able to save whosoever he would like, well I would say maybe yes, maybe no. The thing is God, is God. He can do anything, but he must abide by his own Nature. In other words, God IS Truth, He IS Mercy, He IS Justice, He IS Every Attribute. So how can God be Mercy, when He is also Justice? To be Merciful, he must deny that he is Justice; to be Just, he must deny that he is Merciful. So how can He be both? Well He can be Justice when he applies the merits of his Son to the person who has sinned against him, and deserves hell. That satisfies His Justice, so he can be Mercy.

    As for the prophecy from the 1600’s, well there is much much more to that prophecy, and ALL of it has come true over the last 400 years. I only quoted the parts that apply to our time, which, sounds as if she is spot on with that one also.

  • Greg

    Bob you are lowering yourself to name calling. You should keep your cool. As for my religion, and women, well, if you do your studies, you’ll find that the Jewish Religion in the time of Christ was very discriminating against women. And you’ll also find that the Christian Religion, beginning with the Apostles, liberated women, and extended true dignity to women. Certainly there are roles in the Church that have been established for men only, but there are theological reasons for those. For example, a bishop acts in the person of Christ when conducting services, so since Jesus was a man, then it would be odd for a woman to be performing rites in the person of Christ. But all other offices in the Church are open to women, we even have many women saints. All giving women their proper dignity. I guess unless the Church allows women to be whipped by a dominatrix like in the new movie 50 Shades of Grey, then she has no dignity? Odd world we now live in.

  • Larry

    Whats the matter, don’t like a word salad to go with your spam?

  • Wake up

    What a load of bias rubbish. The biggest thieves are the churches themselves, who demand tithes through guilt and blackmail. Rape, sodomy, incest, is far more commonly committed by religious leaders than the average citizen.

  • Wake up

    There is the same amount of spirituality around as there always was, it is just now disproportionally centred in a few fanatics, while the sane have walked away from it.

  • Karla

    Romans 1:18-32 says that God made it known to us He is real through the
    miracle of creation but people deny Him/Jesus/the Truth because they love
    their sin/cause of pride they refuse to Repent/admit that Jesus is Messiah.
    Many try to say there are other ways/all roads go to heaven. That does not
    make sense because each belief teaches something different plus if there
    were other ways why would Jesus go to the Cross if there are other ways?
    Jesus is the Messiah and only way to heaven! Bible can be trusted cause of
    prophecy accuracy coming true like Psalm 22:16-18 and also Isaiah 53:3-7
    Bible says Repent and believe the Gospel to be saved! We all must Repent!

  • Ken

    Of course women are finally leaving religion behind. They have become as debauched as their humanist/atheist counterparts. And nothing is as uncomfortable with being immoral as having to face up to being immoral. No God, no rules. Or rather, only rules you make up as you go along.

    So in all reality, what is being accepted is that the individual becomes their own god.

    And of course mental illness treatment facilities filling to overflow and the depression pharmaceutical business step right in to take the place of Church, and tithing at those Churches.

    Gotta love godlessness for the fruit it delivers: Immoral nutballs of pure selfishness.

    Yup, sounds like the modern world well defined.

    .

  • Ken

    Oops, I should have put all of that in bold type huh?

    Maybe next time.

  • Greg

    No Bob, when left to himself, man becomes a greedy, self-serving being, who succumbs more and more readily to the temptations of the Devil. That’s why, as Jason said, the prisons are full of godless atheists. Only when man takes the challenge from Almighty God, to suppress his evil inclinations, and to instead embrace the grace he gives us, does man rise to the dignity of his maker. And whether you choose to believe it or not, God exists, and so does the Devil. Both influence us: God through the free-gift of grace, the Devil through temptation, but, God has given us the free will to do whatever we wish in this life, but the next life (afterlife), is determined by His Will alone. None of us can ever say we were not warned.

  • Bob

    Greg, every post you’ve made above is complete nonsense. Ask yourself why your purportedly omnipotent being can’t simply immediately do away with this “Devil” that you claim also exists. The “Devil” is just one more convenient invention of your awful religion, a scapegoat that is an attempt to remove responsibility from people for what they did. Sheer Christian cowardice, as usual.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

  • Bob

    jason: good one. That’s another very good question to ask US evangelicals. Cheers.

  • Bob

    That’s nonsense, Greg, as is your entire superstition. You are claiming an omnipotent, omni benevolent, active entity. The obvious reality is that no such being as your “god” exists. Funny that there is no modern evidence that can be verified for your sky fairy tales, just old myths. Seems your sky creature is taking a long holiday – a rather lazy, non-caring, and nonexistent jerk of a deity.

    Time to put those old myths away.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

  • Greg

    Bob: You need to stop being so combative; relax and meditate on what I am saying. The idea is this: rather than thinking about God as you would any other human being, think of God as a Spirit, a Being Who IS Who He IS, and is not going to ever change. Humans have a learning element, God doesn’t learn; He IS Knowledge. God doesn’t just do things flippantly, then rethink them later; He proclaims things, and they happen, and remain so, forever more. When He created the Angels; He created all the Angels to exist forever. Then He put each of them to a test. And some of them failed the test, and fell from Grace; they are now the ones we call demons. The ones that stayed loyal, are the Good Angels, who will be with God for all eternity. The same goes for the human soul. Each of us has an eternal soul. When we die, it will be frozen in its final state, never to change. It will either die a reprobate, or an elect, just like the good angels and the bad angels. God is God; He has a Nature that is unchanging. He has given each of us the opportunity to tap into the Sacrifice of His Son, to atone for the sins we’ve committed. It is God’s way of fixing a problem, without denying Who He is, or changing His Nature. I don’t find that very hard to comprehend.

  • Bob

    Nonsense again from you Greg. I stand by what I said, and your bible is repeatedly sexist and denigrating to women, right from day 1 of its Eve myth. And again, your whole Jesus-sacrifice story is pathetic and ridiculous.

    “The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of woman’s emancipation.” -Elizabeth Cady Stanton, The Woman’s Bible

    A few of the hundreds of examples of sexism in your disgusting holy book:

    Exodus:
    How to sell your daughter — and what to do if she fails to please her new master. 21:7-8

    God’s instructions for taking a second wife. 21:10

    If you “entice” an “unmarried maid” to “lie” with you, then you must marry her, unless the father refuses to give her to you, in which case you must pay him the going price for virgins. 22:16

    “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.” Thousands of innocent women have suffered excruciating deaths because of this verse. 22:18

    Three times a year God wants to see all of the males. The females he never wants to see. 23:17

    “Their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.” God always blames the women; it is they who “go a whoring” and then “make” the men “go a whoring.” 34:16

    “Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord.” But what about the “women children”? Don’t they ever get to appear before the Lord? 34:23

    Numbers:
    When “Moses numbered them according to the word of the Lord” he was told to count “every male from a month old and upward.” Women and girls didn’t count as persons. Neither did babies (or fetuses) under 1 month old. I guess the unborn just don’t count to God. 3:15-16

    The Law of Jealousies. If a man suspects his wife of being unfaithful, he reports it to the priest. The priest then makes her drink some “bitter water.” If she is guilty, the water makes her thigh rot and her belly swell. If innocent, no harm done — the woman is free and will “conceive seed.” In any case, “the man shall be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.” 5:11-31

    “And the spirit of jealousy come upon him … and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him … and she be not defiled.”
    If a husband is jealous, his wife must submit to the law of jealousies whether she was “defiled” or not. 5:14

    “Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest … And the priest shall … set her before the LORD … and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse.” 5:15-17

    “And the priest shall … say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee … be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse.” 5:19

    “Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell.” 5:20-21

    “But if … some man have lain with thee beside thine husband … The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell.” 5:22

    “And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse.” 5:24

    “And when he hath made her to drink the water … if she be defiled … the water that causeth the curse shall … become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.” 5:27

    “And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.” 5:28

    “Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.” 5:31

    Miriam and Aaron (Moses’ brother and sister) criticize Moses for marrying an Ethiopian woman and thus breaking the law of God. But God makes it clear that his rules don’t apply to his favorites, and he strikes Miriam with leprosy. Notice that only Miriam is punished, though both she and Aaron complained. 12:1, 9-10

    When one of the Israelite men brings home a foreign woman, “Phinehas (Aaron’s grandson) sees them and throws a spear “through the man .. and the woman through her belly.” This act pleases God so much that “the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.” But not before 24,000 had died. 25:6-9

    And throughout “The male and his female …” Notice that in the Bible female animals are the property of male animals, as women are the property of men

    Really, it is time to put your sexist, bigoted Christian religion behind you. It is awful, sexist, hateful mythology.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

  • Greg

    Bob there is no such thing as “old myths” when speaking of God. He gives us Life, human life (body & soul), and He has given us the means to be with Him for all eternity (our immortal souls). I do get it that many do not like the way God goes about His business; they would rather He instead behaved as they would like for Him to behave. But I guess I would say to that, who are We to tell God how to do things?

    I’ll give you a challenge: wake up every morning and say aloud, “God, if you exist, I ask you to prove it to me in a way that I will understand.” If you are sincere in your query, and do so every morning, then you will get your answer. And that answer will come in a way that you will know who it is from. If you are insincere, with it being done in a sense of mockery, then He will ignore you. But if you are sincere, then you will get that answer.

  • Okay folks, Everyone who has posted two comments or more may not post more on this story.
    Everyone gets to state their view — respectfully — about the story at hand and then step aside for others to express their views.
    This is not a boxing ring. If you want to brawl about the value (or lack of) that you see in religion and the Bible — have at it but not on my article.
    Take it outside, so to speak.
    Thanks, Cathy Lynn Grossman

  • Thecla

    I’m not sure what you’re arguing here. Evangelical Christianity is a whole nother religion and it is detestable, worthless–and dangerous. I’m talking about ‘mainline’ churches that have traditionally catered for the educated, urban-coastal upper middle class. They do not keep women as inferiors, promote political conservatism, or do any of this bad stuff.

  • Greg

    Bob you have only made my point. You’ve quoted the Old Testament.
    Read what I said: Here, let me re-quote from my earlier statement, “…you’ll find that the Jewish Religion in the time of Christ was very discriminating against women. And you’ll also find that the Christian Religion, beginning with the Apostles, liberated women, and extended true dignity to women.”
    If you are going to prove that women continue to be degraded in Christianity, then you need to at least do so from the New Testament.

  • Greg

    Man if I were an outside observer, I would make an immediate observation that with the mere mention of the name “Jesus,” the fangs come out, and vile hatred is spewed both at Him, and his followers. I guess some things never change. It was like that in the early Church, and continues to be so today. That would have me possibly believing that this “Jesus” might just be the real McCoy. Whew! The same thing happens in exorcisms.

  • Greg

    Just read your comment, Cathy. Sorry.

  • Doc Anthony

    Sure, I’ll take a guess. My guess would be “Christians,” One reason for that would be the fact that Christians, churches and clergy actually VISIT the jail-house, and share their love and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, with the inmates. Some of the inmates may respond to the message, and they decide to put their trust in Christ.

    (Which then boosts the number of Christians in prison.)

    You actually would see more atheists in prison — if atheists did the same thing. But honestly, what does atheism offer to ANY criminal, to those who have messed up their own lives and others’ lives too?

    NOTHING. Just flat nothing. No hope at all. No avenue to repent of sins; no avenue of salvation from those sins. No healing and deep-cleansing of root causes. No God to help you out, way down inside where it counts. Just flat NOTHING. That’s what atheism offers.

    So keep on looking for more Christians than atheists in jail. In fact, whatever the societal context, always look for more Christians than atheists. People just KNOW that atheism offers them nothing..

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  • Larry

    True enough. But my point is the congregations in “traditional” sects grow more for demographic reasons than by conversion or choice. For the most part people tend to be born into them rather than choose such sects.

  • Cathy Lynn Grossman,

    Thanks for your article – and I’ll stop commenting on your article.

    But your story offers only scratches the surface of this issue and with its reliance on anecdotes you are well aware you are only giving a snapshot.

    That is why these comment threads go on so long as we readers throw evidence at each other to debate the things you have brought up in your article.

    From your article:

    “On the rise: Those who call themselves “not very strong” Catholics. That self-description by men climbed to 67 percent in 2012, up from 44 percent 1974. Among women, 57 percent said their faith was “not very strong,” up from 43 percent 40 years ago.”

    But why?

    “Tickle called it “religiously imposed schizophrenia. My generation didn’t have the pressure to be the perfect wife and the perfect professional.”

    Meanwhile, millions of us Atheists are simply not being heard in this culture.

    “Taking it outside” as you suggested, is exactly what we thought we were doing by arguing in your comment section.

    1. You started the conversation about women losing religion with your article but it is clearly not the whole story. You can’t blame commenters for trying to take the conversation further, right?

    2. Religion is being abandoned by young women but you don’t venture far enough into why this is happening. Tickle dismisses it as a mystery to her. But this is an awful non answer. Millions of Atheist women would have given a much better answer. It ISN’T a mystery to them.

    3. Your article doesn’t explore any of the likely causes of this rebellion against religion: the liberation of women’s education, the oppression being inflicted on women by the rise of the religious Right including the women-hating components within these religions – and the attack on women’s rights by courts meddling with the separation of church and state (Hobby Lobby being the latest example).

    4. Also, Religiously motivated terrorism is waking a lot of people up – women with children (and internet connections) are finally looking into this nonsense. It appears they are beginning to look at scripture for what it is: Primitive, paternalistic texts full of random and contradictory claims.

    5. Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann and other religious women who have crashed and burned has been an earthquake on our society. They have shocked and demonstrated in a very public way that mixing religion and politics is a disaster for women. This has opened up an enormous level of self-questioning for many women about what the role of religion really ought to be!

    You touched on none of that stuff.

    Women are openly asking – ‘is religion constructive or destructive to our families? Is this what we want for our daughters?

    Now why would mothers continue to go to church under these circumstances? That is a very interesting question and it deserves a much deeper discussion.

    You have the right to limit your article to an impression of the situation and to scold commentors for straying off the topic of religion into rude personal attacks.

    But I’m sorry you don’t seem to want your very passionate readers to take this important conversation much further than the article you published.

  • MsCarol420

    Prison is served by 2 faiths; The first and predominant is Christianity and the second is Muslims. Church and church related activities are basically the only social outlet inmates have. Muslims make up less than 1% to <2% of the population according to polls, and the majority of those Muslims are currently serving time in prison. This is because of rampant racism inside the prison industrial complex. Black people identify as Muslims. While some black men go to Christian church I doubt you would see a white man in the Muslim service. The only remotely secular community support inside prison comes from the recovery community which is also mostly Christian; "Made the decision to turn our lives and our will over to the care of God, as we understood Him."

    I would like to challenge the athiest community to design and implement a program to work with inmates and give them a choice of other than religion. Many find religion in prison because that's all there is and so much could be done without using a church as a cover in areas like education, support groups, and life skills.

  • Carolyn

    What makes you think that leaving a misogynistic, abusive, hate filled, gay intolerant, criminal organization such as the Catholic church will lead to moral decadence, adultery, abortion and gossip? First, active Catholics ALREADY engage in those behaviors, and second, one does not need religion (which is inherently immoral) to know the difference between right and wrong.

    I left the Catholic church and dumped religion last year, when I woke up from a 30 year long coma of oppression, shame and guilt laid thick by a heavy dose of catholicism. I am appalled by the lack of concern catholics have over the widespread pedophile that happened in the church. I am gleeful about the recent uncovering of the fraudulent behavior of the fake saint “Mother” Teresa, who’s title “Mother” is contradictory to the amount of suffering, pain and anguish she dispensed to her “poorest of the poor”, while she fist pumped and chanted to the Hindus “Give up your gods, join our catholic church!”

    If you want to talk about decadence, immorality, vile and abusive actions done by humans, look no further than the church. I am happily free of all religious dogma.

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  • Larry

    @MsCarol420

    Here you go, examples of non-religious addiction programs

    AA for Agnostics
    http://aaagnostica.org/how-to-start-an-aa-meeting/

    Secular Organization for Sobriety
    http://www.sossobriety.org/home.html

    “An Increasing Number of Atheist and Agnostic Alcoholics Anonymous Groups Are Altering the Twelve Steps”

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/03/21/an-increasing-number-of-atheist-and-agnostic-alcoholics-anonymous-groups-are-altering-the-twelve-steps/#ixzz3Sgj4M0ss