• Larry

    Ben Carson is scum.

    The guy is actively toting bills through various state legislatures to legalize discrimination against gays under the guise of “religious freedom”. As if “sincerely held beliefs” are an excuse to maliciously harm people in public settings.

    Whatever apologia he has done or recent statements concerning the dignity of LGBT people is expedient lipservice. The man does not view them with even a modicum of respect.

  • I don’t think we should use the word sin, when referring to others. Christ died for our sins, so, the question is moot. If we are convicted of our sin, we have Christ, & we pick up our cross and carry it. Carson is presumptuous. Too many are blocking LGBT, and placing conditions on them to change. God IS love.

  • GirlMom

    To be fair Cape Town did say that very few LGT could change and in most instances it was consistent since a very young age. Handysides or Landless, I forget which. He also said ‘conversion therapy’ was very damaging.

    I am surprised that women haven’t got more upset about this comment. It implies something terrible about rape for people of all genders.

  • PastorDad

    While I think the church is the place to teach godly love and respect for all people, I also believe that churches can be loving but not affirming of alternative lifestyles. Christianity and the Bible don’t have to conform to opinion polls, and the LGBT community really needs to stop trying to make the church conform to their desires. Christians have to love and accept LGBT people as they are, absolutely, but they shouldn’t have to change doctrine and the wording of the Bible for anyone.

  • Larry

    Yet when Christians act in “not affirming alternate lifestyles” it is never loving or respectful. It would be far more honest to just drop the pretense.

    It really comes down to not feeling any need to be civil or polite to gay people in any kind of public or private situation. Any claims of Christian love of all people is hypocritical nonsense given the kind of rhetoric and religious views expressed.

  • Larry

    I am not the one trying to make a mockery of civil rights laws. Laws whose absence would have kept Mr. Carson from medical school and political power he enjoys today.

    Back in the day, plenty of people thought it was their duty as good Christians, in accordance with scripture, to keep people like Carson away from decent education and political power. I bet Mr. Carson was glad that nobody took their demand for religious exceptions to those anti-discrimination laws seriously.

    See Brian, unlike your comment, I can explain exactly why Mr. Carson is such a vile person. His hypocrisy is obvious.

  • Doc Anthony

    With this post, (and also your 4:44 pm post that refers to Dr. Carson as “scum”), you seem to display quite a bit of disagreement with Eliel Cruz.

    Why is that?

  • Larry

    Mr. Cruz believes religious folk like yourself can be eventually won over and persuaded to treat gays like human beings. That one can reform such denominations from within.

    I don’t.

    You don’t either.

  • Bill Colburn

    I don’t know how you can ‘share his religion’ after all you have said represents the teachings of that religion. Isn’t that like pretending to be straight when you are really gay?

  • Ben in oakland

    Well, pastor, you are obviously unaware of the sheer number of individual christians,cministers, churches, and enire denominations that disagree with you.

    We haven’t MADE anyone do anything. we don’t have that power. But all of those ministers, churches, and denominations have changed their minds, not despite what their bibles allegedly say on the subject, but BECAUSE of what their bibles say. Just like we don’t justify slavery, witch burning, jEw hatred, and segregation any more as god’s holy word.

    Perhaps it’s the Holy Spirit trying to tell you something through others because you are too spiritually deaf to hear it yourself?

    In any case, for 2000 years, your churches have visited untold pain and misery on gay people, a history that includes prisons, beatings, degradation, vilification, and murder. You have justified this barbarity as god’s word, just as was done for slavery, witchcraft, jew hatred, and segregation.

    It took only thirty years after the passage of the Civil rights Act for the Baptists to finally apologize for slavery and segregation. I suspect that in 30 years from now, those churches that haven’t recanted their former confusion of an ancient and vicious prejudice for god’s word will be few and far between.

  • Doc Anthony

    1 Corinthians 13 spells out how to treat gays (and straights, and atheists, and everybody else) like human beings.

    However, the same Biblical book also clearly condemns homosexual behavior as a sin, all of it, no exceptions, and hence condemns gay marriage as well (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). Simultaneously, the same book points out that the power of God, in the person of Jesus Christ, can save, cleanse, and deliver any person from that problem, (verse 6:11), just as He can “make a way of escape” for any person with any sin problem (verse 10:13).

    Now I realize that you don’t believe any of that information, just as you don’t believe any of the semi-positive statements that Cruz made concerning Dr. Carson or the SDA denomination. That’s fine.

    I’m just noting with curious interest, that you don’t seem to agree with positions being given by EITHER “anti-gay me” or “pro-gay Cruz”, so to speak.

    Such a curious situation probably has something to do with your current religion (a religion of which the Bible openly classifies as a sin, by the way.)

  • Doc Anthony

    “In accordance with Scripture”, you say?

    Please specify exactly which Scripture texts endorse “keeping people like Carson away from decent education and political power”?

  • Shane

    If you are STILL a part of the SDA you are not only participating in your own oppression, you in fact, AGREE with Carson’s original assessment. Your religion shares a caustic view of LGBT people and you ADMIT to still being a part of it. That doesn’t make you Faithfully anything, but a hypocrite.

  • Larry

    We are dealing with an American political figure who may be running for the highest office. If one feels religious belief overrides things such as constitutional principles, civil liberties and basic decency, then it speaks badly for them.

    In this case Carson believes Christian belief entitles people to act in a deliberately malicious and harmful fashion towards others. He believes civil liberties are not to be taken seriously. That Conservative Christians (and no other beliefs) should be entitled to the privileges under color of law to the detriment of all others.

    It should not be a surprise that I don’t agree with you or Cruz. Both of you are devout Christians. I am not. I don’t

    My current and always have been religion, being none at all. The fact that you consider it sinful is enough to demonstrate why there would be such differences of opinion.

  • Larry

    Your alleged ignorance of how the Bible justified slavery and segregation is duly noted.

    Why don’t you ask your local chapter of the KKK? They can tell you many reasons why God wants to keep people like yourself from being in the presence of “virtuous christian white folk”.


    Shall I bring up Bob Jones’s Sr’s speech why segregation is obeying God’s laws?

    Leviticus 19:19 – Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

    Acts 10:28 – And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

    Acts 12:26
    From one man he created all the nations throughout the whole earth. He decided beforehand when they should rise and fall, and he determined their boundaries.

    James 2:2-4 – For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; (Read More…)

    Acts10:28 was cited by the Virginia State judge when upholding anti-miscegenation laws. Said judge was overtuned by SCOTUS in Loving v. Virginia.

    Ben Carson wants to do for gays, what many a white Christian wanted to do for him.

  • Why should anyone be surprised if these superstitious philosophies of cave men turned out to be primitive garbage?

    The whole world would be much better off if it just stopped going to church
    and abandoned this hideous superstitious nonsense.

    All the world’s popular superstitions: Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Hinduism and their various argumentative sects are simply incompatible with building a better world. May they all fade away as they lose the debate.

  • Eliel Cruz

    Hey Larry,

    Please refrain from calling Ben Carson names. I do not want to attack individuals by name calling. If you have issues with his thoughts or ideas please critique those instead of attacking the person.



  • Eliel Cruz

    This is true. My point in mentioning Cape Town was the lack of inclusion of LGBT voices. When you purposefully exclude LGBT voices it doesn’t allow for education on LGBT narratives. This lack of inclusion provides context to Carson’s (and the church’s) comments.

    I agree too — his comment are erroneous in that the equate sexual trauma and rape to a sexual identity. I am glad he apologized.

  • Eliel Cruz

    I have written on how conservative Christians who hold traditional stances in scripture can be loving.

    I don’t understand what you mean by “alternative lifestyle.” What’s a “non alternative lifestyle?” If you’re reffering to a “gay lifestyle” trope, i would urge you to read this piece by Justin Lee and tell me exactly what a “gay lifestyle” is.

    What “doctrine” is against LGBT people? I wasn’t aware same-sex relationships was historically an issue of orthodoxy.

  • Eliel Cruz

    Not exactly. The Seventh-day Adventist Church, as other religious, base our beliefs on much more than theology regarding same-sex relationships.

  • Eliel Cruz

    Hey Friend,

    First, i understand why you’re upset. Religion has caused a lot of pain to LGBT individuals which makes it difficult for a lot of LGBT people to understand why other LGBT people choose to stay in the church. Second, you are mistaken in believing that i too agree with Carson’s original statement (i’m not sure where you would base that assumption) or that i participate in my own oppression. If you’ve followed my work the last five years, that statement would look as uncalled for by you as it does to me.

  • Eliel Cruz

    Why do you comment here all the time if you don’t think “religious people can be won over”? (which btw isn’t the wording i would choose for the work I do but i understand your sentiments)

  • Eliel Cruz

    Hey Karla,

    What’s a “practicing homosexual”? And to flip the coin, what’s a “practicing” or “non practicing” heterosexual?

    Looking forward to hearing from you,


  • Eliel Cruz

    I’m not sure you answered my question.

    What’s a “practicing homosexual”? And to flip the coin, what’s a “practicing” or “non practicing” heterosexual?

  • Larry

    “Why do you comment here all the time if you don’t think “religious people can be won over”

    I still hold out hope you can find the religious people who don’t need to be won over. 🙂

  • Here’s the thing… Dr. Carson says this: “We do know, however, that we are always born male and female. And I know that we are all made in God’s image”

    I wonder does he know that…

    In Genesis 1/26-27 — when God created “man” — he actually created “Adam” which is the word for “humankind” — Adam means that all maleness and femaleness were wrapped up into one “being” that is said to be “in God’s Image” (Phyllis Trible, “Eve and Adam: Genesis 2-3 Reread,”Andover Newton Quarterly 13, no. 4 (March 1973): 251.)

    The Hebrew word adam means “human being” – and not necessarily a MALE human being. In the early chapters of Genesis it is often used with the definite article = ha’adam (הָאָדָם) meaning “the human being”

    Though I haven’t fully unpacked my theological understanding of that — surely that gives support that the original created HUMAN was not a separated male/female species and that gives credence, credibility, validity to the fact that gender identity/expression is fluid rather than fixed.

    Furthermore, we know there are 2 distinct creation stories — one in Gen 1 and one in Gen 2 — so moving on to Gen 2…

    God created Adam (once again — same word) — so again — all HUMANKIND. Not male. Not female. HUMANkind. One species.

    in the Hebrew text, the first “man” is not specifically referred to as a male human (Ish) until after the “operation” mentioned in Genesis 2:21-22. So gender and sex differentiation in the Genesis 2 account does not occur until after woman (Ishshah) had been created in verse 23

    Clearly if Mr. Carson wants to speak on the Old Testament scriptures, he should invest a little bit more time in understanding the original hebrew. My understanding is that God didn’t create “Man and woman” — God created “humankind” — and from there — after a while — God separated the species.


  • Karla

    Eliel Cruz- As I said before just because someone has a feeling/sinful desire
    that doesn’t mean they have to act on that desire. 1 Corinthians 6:9-12 says
    drunkards go to hell and all gossips,greedy coveters and thieves so do we
    say it is okay to do those sins? Bible says to flee from all sexual immorality
    so if a man is sleeping with his girlfriend before marriage it’s just as wrong
    of a sin cause all sin is wrong so if we say that it is okay to be homosexual
    then we have to say all of the other sins in 1 Corinthians 6:9-12 are okay
    and they are not so a practicing homosexual is someone who has feelings
    for someone else of the same sex and acts on those feelings. We all have
    sinful desires but that doesn’t make it okay to act on those desires. Do we
    tell people it’s okay to get drunk and be mean? No we don’t. God created
    us to be married and sex is for marriage between one man and one woman.

  • Karla,

    “God created us to be married and sex is for marriage between one man and one woman.”

    Then why didn’t God make most people that way? Besides, the bible doesn’t say this anyway.

    1. Millions of people in history have been born with no sexual organs at all and would not know how to answer whether they are male or female.

    2. Why did God create multiple sexualities in human beings?

    3. Why are 10 percent of all men only sexually aroused by other men?

    4. Why are 10 percent of women only sexually aroused by lust for other women?

    5. Why do 30 percent of all men and women have some bisexual lusts in addition to the 10 percent who only lust for their own sex?

    Karla, if a man is not sexually aroused he cannot make babies.
    So what is God’s purpose in putting so many people on earth who are born to find your idea of sex impossible?

    Karla, do you think a man can get an erection if he is not interested ?
    You do understand this problem right?

    Christians say that God’s law is written on the heart.
    But Gays are clearly born with their lust written on their heart, too. And I’m talking about 10 percent of all of humanity!

    Your argument demonstrates why religion is dangerous, primitive nonsense. It is founded on ignorance of biology and sociology – and it REFUSES to adapt to new information.

    A God – if such a ridiculous thing exists – cannot possibly find fault with things he creates at BIRTH and puts in the hearts of humans, sexual or otherwise.

  • drDee

    After reading the article and comments, Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” came to my mind. I tire of the divisive social polarization in today’s human relationships. The Bible is clear yet each mind can rationalize their version of truth.

    As for me, I ask myself, “Who am I even to think that God would ever be pleased with me as He is well pleased with Jesus?” Jesus is our standard in all aspects of life. He “did not suppress one word of truth, but He uttered it always in love. He exercised the greatest tact and thoughtful, kind attention in His intercourse with the people. He was never rude, never needlessly spoke a severe word, never gave needless pain to a sensitive soul.”

    Perhaps if more Christians would concentrate On “working out their own salvation with fear and trembling,” Philippians 2:12, the Holy Spirit and the angels wouldn’t have to spend as much time mopping up the trail of tears, uplifting the crushed down and broken hearted. This bidirectional shrill contempt of each other is poison to the mind, body and soul.

    Let’s be careful not to be duped by the arch deceiver who is so subtle that even while we are in our heavenly Father’s loving embrace, he comes knocking at the door of our heart, insinuating doubt, planting discouragement and distrust in God and Holy Word.

    The infinite sacrifice of our heavenly Father in giving His Son to die for us, should give us an exalted conceptions of what we may become through Christ. “Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons (and daughters) of God.” 1 John 3:1 What if we really believed this and acted in the same manner to one another? What might happen? Will laws, politics or political correctness save us?

    I eagerly yearn to say one day, “Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us.” Isaiah 25:9

  • Karla

    How much of your theology is from your own, independent research of what the bible actually says (original text in the original historical context) — and how much of it is reliant on second or third source arguments?

    I ask because some of the things that you state are “the bible says” are about as far off from the truth as anything I’ve ever heard. As a fellow Christian — before you come to Eliel’s website spouting half-“truths” — things that are hurting and damaging to REAL flesh and blood people, made in the image of God, created by God to be loved — I would encourage you to do your own study.

    Otherwise, you are simply relying on someone else — your pastor, the media, another second or third source — to do your thinking for you. Go back to the scriptures — read commentary on BOTH sides of the argument — study the historical context within which they have been written.

    I think if you do that, you will see that the “truth” that you have spouted here — is not so truthful at all.


  • Karla

    Jenny Rain- I think you need to check your sources because many people
    today are trying to discredit/twist the Bible. You need to be more specific
    when you say that I’m not speaking the Truth. Which part of the Bible are
    you saying isn’t true? The Bible is the Word of God/Truth so you need to
    be more clear when you say that what I said said was not true, God bless.

  • Karla

    Jenny Rain-The Bible is the Word of God/Truth so you need to check the
    sources you are getting your information from and be more clear/specific
    about which part of the Bible you don’t agree with. Everything that I wrote
    is from the Bible/Word of God. Bible says many shall depart from the faith
    and not stick to sound doctrine. You need to read the Bible/Word of God.

  • @Jenny,

    “I think if you do that, you will see that the “truth” that you have spouted here — is not so truthful at all.”

    In fairness to Karla, where is the ‘correct’ manual on how to interpret the bible?
    I have never seen it.
    The Bible does not have a user’s manual – because it claims to BE the user’s manual.

    “Bring to me those enemies of mine and execute them in front of me” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    For 20 centuries this has come to mean that Jesus wants his enemies killed. Who is an enemy of Jesus?
    Turns out all sinners are enemies of Jesus.
    Who is worthy of being murdered then?
    Sinners – and that means anyone you decide to accuse.
    Or not, as in ‘love your neighbor’.

    Religion is incredibly dangerous, moody, fickle and subject to whatever anyone wants it to be.

    Karla demonstrates it – but so do you.

  • Ben in oakland

    Larry answered your question, Eliel, but so will I.

    I’ve been active in this fight to end legalized discrimination and state-encouraged bigotry for over 40 years. When I write, I’m not writing to convince our resident bigots– excuse me, our resident representatives and repositories for God’s will. They have only one song to sing, “It’s agin’ the bible, and GAWD agrees with me.” It’s a waste of time to try to convince them of anything, until someone they love can get through their moralizing busybodiness and profound contempt for people they despise for no other reason than this: THEY DO. They are obsessed beyond reason or reality with alleged sexual sin, cultural purity (whatever that is), and homosexuality.

    This is the conclusion I reached long ago: we are NEVER going to reach those who are irretrievably poisoned by hate, fear, ignorance, stupidity, obsessive religious belief, mental illness, bad parenting, prejudice, a traumatizing event, lust for power and money at the expense of other people, self hatred, paranoia, or extreme right wing ideology.

    That’s the very definition of “irretrievably.” I’ll occasionally bother to respond for my own amusement or edification, but not because I ever expect them to get it, much less to change. Nothing short of a rhetorical 2×4 upside the head will ever get to them.

    However, I also believe that there are a great many people who come to these pages to LEARN and to understand. I think that mostly, they don’t comment. But they read those who do. THEY are the people I’m trying to reach.

    This is why I sometimes write a great deal. I want to deconstruct what our resident bigots put forth as (tee-hee!!!! the irony is delicious) Gospel Truth. I want to outline the assumptions, whether false or true, the process used to arrive at their conclusions, the (usual) absurdity of those conclusions.

    so, unless I am prevented, I will continue to write. I’m pretty sure I’m doing some good. Perhaps in my lifetime, I will see an end to at least the legalized bigotry. The personal animus, of course, I may never see the end of.

  • Ben in oakland


    He apologized, but only because he was called out on it. Immediately prior to that, he was blaming the liberal media for misconstruing his remarks and taking them “out of context”.

    I bet no one ever accused sean Hannity of being the “liberal media” before.

    I’m glad he apologized, too, if only to outline the stupidity and ugliness of his mindset and outlook. But that doesn’t mean he either meant the apology, or has changed his mind about his bigot-based ignorance.

    He might well be a brain surgeon and a Christian. But his former profession doesn’t make him intelligent beyond its bounds; obviously, it doesn’t. And his faith doesn’t make him, or any other Christian of his ilk, a good, kind, compassionate person.

  • Denny Birk

    No offense really, and all of you are certainly entitled to believe whatever you want. We live in a country that supports freedom of religion. That said, I also think that most of this is just a bunch of gobbly-gook!

    I atteded SDA schools, elementary, high school (Monterey Bay Academy) and college. (Pacific Union college). I knew gay classmates in both high school and college. the fact that after nearly fifty years the people that make up your version of religion have still not seen fit to recognize that all people have a right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. When I hear all of this stuff about how gays are demons, sinners, or worse it just brings to mind the question, What would Jesus Do?

    Knowing that while he was on earth lots of his friends were from the bottome of the social scale. And even Jesus was not purfect. After all, he had the bad luck to pick Judas as an apostle. Not a good idea as it turned out!


  • Karla

    Denny Birk-God/Jesus is real/Jesus was perfect. Judas had free choice and
    if you read the whole story Jesus knew what Judas was going to do. For you
    to say that this whole world all just formed by itself is just being blind. Read
    Romans 1:18-32 and the specific Bible prophecy that came true about Jesus
    like Jesus being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver and Him starting a/His public
    ministry in 483 years plus Psalm 22:16-18 and also Isaiah 53:3-7. God bless.

  • Eliel Cruz

    So practicing homosexual is someone who has sex? That term is just not in the bible nor is it a medical one so i wanted to get your definition of it. Are there then non practicing and practicing heterosexuals? I’m trying to understand he terminology you are choosing as it’s not one in scripture.

  • Eliel Cruz

    He’s been called on other comments for years and never budged.

  • Karla

    Eliel-It is in Scripture. Read Romans 1:18-32 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-12
    which both list many other sins right along with homosexuals so all sin
    is wrong.

  • Ben in oakland

    What is truth, said jesting pilate, and would not stay for an answer.

  • Doc Anthony

    “What would Jesus do?” you ask.

    He’d probably do something like, say, 1 Cor. 6:9-11. Or maybe 1 Cor. 10:13.

    Probably both.

  • John P

    Eliel – I still fail to understand the Christian LGBT position when you consider the complementary fact of God’s creation. God made them this way for a reason and anyone can see the biological features of maleness and femaleness. Your position continues to fail at the deep theological issue of God design and has an incomplete understanding of the implications of the fall and sins effects on all aspects of life. If you have addressed these issues before, please share a link because I would like to know how you address these.

  • John P

    Gen 1:26 does refer to man as ‘Adam” meaning mankind in the comprehensive sense. Then in the same verse he breaks out the two specific sexes, “zakar” meaning male and “nekeva” meaning female, both in specific reference to gender in both humans and animals.

    You seem to imply some kind of either asexual or androgynous being. That would be a stretch of an interpretation which context would not allow. It is clear that God created mankind in his image, and specifically in two genders and that from the very beginning. Are you making a case for some gender neutral being that was later further distinguished into maleness and femaleness? I’m just not following your logic or interpretation of the Genesis verses you cited. And are you then using that argument as a support for God creating people as gay/homosexual, etc.?

  • Billysees

    Ben in oakland,

    Your whole comment is important.

    I read some new and modern prophecy —

    “I suspect that in 30 years from now, those churches that haven’t recanted their former confusion of an ancient and vicious prejudice for god’s word will be few and far between.”

  • Eliel Cruz

    I think you’re misunderstanding what i’m saying. I’m confused by your terminology not your theology. I just think it’s easier to say what we really mean aka same-sex sex instead of using terminology that doesn’t quite make sense re “practicing homosexual”

  • Garson Abuita

    The idea that “man” (ha’adam) was originally created as a hermaphroditic being, then split into two, actually can be found in rabbinic homiletics (midrash aggadah). This essentially is to reconcile the accounts in Genesis 1 and 2.

  • Oh man! Yes say it! Sharing Jesus does not mean we all share the same added ideologies. That’s why there’s even denominations in the first place (not the point of the post…so I’ll leave it there.)

    There’s a movement taking place that’s not as loud as the people in the mega churches who can afford to be on television. Where people young and old, who love Jesus and understand the Gospel, are embracing radical inclusiveness of others and letting God be the judge of people’s lives….wait…that’s in the Bible somewhere…that it’s God’s job to judge people and my job to love them….(sorry for the sarcasm–but not really because I’m Canadian and it’s natural.)

    I was raised outside of the church, so many of the things that sincere God fearing church lovers do make absolutely no sense to me. But they were taught all of the things and behaviours that they know and act out of. Asking hard questions is good for any tightly held world view. But it’s not as easy to look at them honestly when you’re afraid of losing an entire community of people for standing against the norm within religious culture.

    I’m not entirely sure where I’m going with this comment so I’ll end off here. But YES. One can be a Christian without holding the same theology as other Christians just like one can be American without holding to the same thing as other Americans.

  • ben in oakland

    Thanks, Billy.

    I suspect that’s why I haven’t heard from the good pastor. It contradicts the stories he tells himself about what good Christians are, how they treat others with something they call love, how they are the victims, and how God’s word never changes for some Christians, except when it does.

  • Billysees

    This is why we must always question or reason-out the truthfulness and applicability of ‘everything’ that is written in scripture —

    1. …our knowledge is partial and incomplete…
    2. …we see things imperfectly…
    3. All that I know now is partial and incomplete…
    (1 Corinthians 13:9,12)

    Paul, the majority contributor to the NT, said that about his own writings.

    Those three points and those three alone are exactly the reason it is necessary to judge and evaluate a matter or people based on all reasonable, ‘current’ attitudes, experiences and knowledge.

    The above is also the ‘profound’ evidence needed to show that there is no infallibility or accuracy or approval of even inspired opinions.

    We must ‘continually’ observe the ‘positives’ and ‘greatness’ that LGBT’s bring into God’s creation.

    That is a ‘must’

  • drDee

    Thank you for your reply Karla, my thoughts were penned to express my thoughts about human judging and judgements. As written, it’s the manner and tone of today’s shrill and contemptuous judgements that are cancerous to the soul and accomplish nothing but increased animosity. Christ, as I stated, spoke truth, but never bruised a soul.

    As a personal friend and colleague of Dr. Carson, I’ve seen his caring heart and skillful hands. I have been amazed at his current political positionings not because I disagree or agree, but can anyone imagine Jesus saying them in the tone and manner in which they have been said by Dr. Carson? He, as we are admonished, are to be hesitant to condemn, to guard our words carefully, to love the sinner, but not the sin. Speak truth, indeed, there’s so much truth being spoken, right, by people living the truth, right?

    I am always caution to remove the mote from my eye, before denucleating the splinter from another. I think there are just too many voices blasting bombastically in church, social media, TV, and in the common walks of life.

    “I” don’t want to be right about anyone else’s lifestyle. I have no scientific or factual clue why people eat chocolate let alone their choice in lovers!

    Is obesity a disease of the pancreas, the immune system, the endocrine system, the family system, the limbic system, an appetite out of control, slothfulness, etc? Every scientific study leads to more interacting variables and more evidence that human behavior role in organ function. Oh those dastardly diabetics are risking hell’s fire and the judgement?

    “I” think if others I have a “relationship” with see me overcoming whatever that doth so easy beset me, then perhaps I have some loving credibility with them, but more I become a living laboratory of hope in the power to change. A wellspring of “encouragement” that God’s power, which is His LOVE, can create a divine human force in my weakened human frame and I become like my elder brother Jesus! Hallelujah

  • DrDee

    Karla, as I wrote in first person “I” it indicates what I think I’m called to do in this life. In addition, what “I” feel about the caustic discourse surrounding “social ” and “moral” issues.

    If God has called you to be a judge, prophet, or scholar on these issues amen. However I keep wondering the tenor and tone of the Saviour regarding liars, fat people, and gossipers? It’s a slippery slope to be a judge.

    The mote in our eye than in reality should blind us to the splinter in the others’ eye.

    I believe what is written in the Holy Scriptures concerning sin of any form and fashion, my concern is that I don’t have the right to confront anyone I don’t have a true relationship of love. “I” think too many “right”eous people are playing judge and have no love for the ones they condemn.

    As for demanding or asking any religious order to alter its principles to fit mine or anyone elses lifestyle, well that’s the flip side of the argument and very presumptuous.

    Dr. Carson is a good friend and colleague, I worry he has squandered an amazing influence for good by being caught up in the rancor of politics. But I know he is a good person and sincere. I pray for him as I pray for myself that God’s love will temper and touch his life. We have eternal life riding on every choice we make.
    What if we each spent more time being “living epistles” read by men, instead of talking, blogging talking heads?

  • Ben in oakland

    Dr. Dee, I very much appreciate what you have to say.

  • ben in oakland

    Apparently, the commenting system is working again.

    First, Dr. dee, I want to thank you for your measured approach to the subject. A great many of the so-called Christians who post regularly at this site could stand to listen to you instead of the voice in the darkness of their hardened hearts.

    I have a bunch of somewhat random comments for both of your postings.

    “I tire of the divisive social polarization in today’s human relationships.” This isn’t coming from gay people. We have demanded an end to legalized discrimination and bigotry against our lives, our loves, our families, our children, and our faiths. For daring to be “uppity” fags, the Christian right declared war on US. Culture war is THEIR term.

    “Perhaps if more Christians would concentrate On “working out their own salvation with fear and trembling,” Philippians 2:12, the Holy Spirit and the angels wouldn’t have to spend as much time mopping up the trail of tears, uplifting the crushed down and broken hearted.” What kind of pleasure could a self-righteous, moralizing busybody get out of that? How does one feed one’s wholly imaginary superiority as a human being and a Christian with such thin gruel as not judging the sins of others before one has achieved moral perfection him/herself?

    “This bidirectional shrill contempt of each other is poison to the mind, body and soul.” Absolutely, when it IS bi-directional. But usually, the VAST majority of it is coming from one direction only: from the Only True Christians (TM) towards those people who don’t share this bigoted beliefs about gay people.

    “As a personal friend and colleague of Dr. Carson, I’ve seen his caring heart and skillful hands.” I have no doubt that he a great surgeon. But a caring heart does not spout mindless, defamatory, idiotic, reviling, and slanderous antigay garbage. Nor does it make no effort to educate itself about people it despises. And one thing is clear about Carson: his heart is full of despite directed at people he doesn’t know, clearly knows nothing about, and who have done him and intend him no harm. I really don’t appreciate my 13 years with my husband being compared to a man who has sex with animals, or to prison rape.

    “I believe what is written in the Holy Scriptures concerning sin of any form and fashion, my concern is that I don’t have the right to confront anyone I don’t have a true relationship of love. “I” think too many “right”eous people are playing judge and have no love for the ones they condemn.” THANK YOU FOR STATING IT AS CLEARLY AS YOU HAVE. “Love” for people they don’t know and know nothing about is merely the pretext for a certain class of so-called Christian to treat gay people however badly they wish, and yet feel good about themselves. It isn’t love, it’s narcissism. I’ve been listening my whole life– I’m 64– to Good Christians (TM) who will tell me how they love me, they just hate my child molesting, disease spreading, family destroying, morality attacking, civilization declining, marriage mocking, child endangering, god defying, nature opposing, family underming ways. Really!!! how could anyone find hate in that?

    “As for demanding or asking any religious order to alter its principles to fit mine or anyone elses lifestyle, well that’s the flip side of the argument and very presumptuous.” First, it’s not a lifestyle, it’s a LIFE. Second, asking a religious order to “alter its principles” is frequently not what is going on at all. It’s asking them to ADHERE to their principles, such as treating others as they would like to be treated. All of us may be sinners. Only some of us are throwing stones. As for altering principles, a great many individuals, churches, ministers, and entire denominations have changed their “principles” regarding gay people, not despite what their bibles say, but BECAUSE of what their bibles say. In any case, “sincere religious beliefs” are often the very thinnest veneer of respectability for what is otherwise nothing but sheer animus and despite, justifying an ancient, vicious, and durable prejudice against a segment of society that has done nothing to deserve it, except to exist.

    Again, thank you for your comments.

  • Tendi

    “What ‘doctrine’ is against LGBT people?”, you ask?

    Well, since you say you are Christian, then it is fair to assume you believe in the bible as the single authority on doctrine. Tere is what the bible say, both in old and new testaments.

    Leviticus 18.22 ” Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable”

    Leviticus 20.13 ” ‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads”

    1 Corithians 6.9 “Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men”

    Romans 1.26-28 “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done”

    Those are the few I will give. It is clear from the bible that homosexuality is a sin. However, they are not anymore sinful than those who commit other sins – adultery, stealing, lying. etc. We are all sinners, hence Christ died for all, that through grace and faith in Him, all of us (sinners) may be born again. It also the duty of the Christian to love all sinners, including homosexuals. Therefore, stating that homosexuality is a sin, is no different from saying lying is a sin, because the bible says so. For reasons of political correctness, people are afraid to say this. This where Ben Carson is coming from, to break the PCness gripping society.

  • Tendi

    Interesting comment, I agree with you….to an extent. Yes, Christians can vary in their application of doctrine/principle (theology too strong a word) e.g. dress, the doctrine is/should be, according to Apostle Paul, profess Godliness, there are then variations of Godly dressing. However, we should not vary in doctrine. The existence of different denominations is not ideal. It is a result of misinterpretation of the bible that then results in people with different interpretations starting their own churches. The bible was (ultimately) written by God. He cannot have varying understandings about a given issue. Homosexuality is either wrong or right, it cannot be right for one Christian and wrong for another.

  • Tendi

    Genesis 1 gives a summary of creation from day 1-7 including creation of man. Genesis 2 zooms in on the creation of man because that was the crowning of creation and also man was the only creature created in God’s image to have dominion over the rest of creation.

    He created male and female, distinct beings, different in certain aspects of their physiology, but in a way that complimented each other. See the following (emphasis added).
    Genesis 1. 27 So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; MALE AND FEMALE HE CREATED THEM.

    Genesis 2.7 Then the Lord God formed A MAN from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and THE MAN became a living being.

  • Tendi

    Hi Mr Dee. How do you understand the following.

    Proverbs 27.5 Better is open rebuke than hidden love

    1 timothy 5.20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.

    Titus 2.15 Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

    2 timothy 4.2 Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.

    James 5.20 Let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins

    Revelation 3.19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.

    I can go on.

  • ben in oakland


    “The existence of different denominations is not ideal.” But it is real.

    “It is a result of misinterpretation of the bible that then results in people with different interpretations starting their own churches.” So i’m sure you’ll be able to tell which one is the real one, and which the fakes. I’m putting my money on YOUR theology, especially the part that says gay people are sinners.

    “The bible was (ultimately) written by God.” Maybe. but ultimately is a hole you could drive a large cathedral through.

    “He cannot have varying understandings about a given issue.” Maybe HE doesn’t. YOU do.

    “Homosexuality is either wrong or right, it cannot be right for one Christian and wrong for another.” Of course it can. right for homosexual Christians, wrong for heterosexual ones. Paul pretty much says that in romans. As a consequence of their idolatry, heterosexual people were punished by god and made into homosexual ones.

  • Eliel Cruz

    Those are bible verses. Doctrines is a set of beliefs or a group of beliefs that are fundamental to your faith system. My statement was how this question became on of Christian orthodoxy.

    Also, respectfully, i’ve read those verses thousands of times more than you have. You’re not bringing anything new to the conversation by thinking i haven’t read them.

  • Tendi

    All doctrine should be informed by scripture ” All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Tim 3.16. Those scriptures (in my last post) establish the understanding that homosexuality is sin. That is where christians got it from.