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  • James Carr

    I am a faithful Catholic and am happy the Church takes its time investigating claimed miracles. It is more thorough than scientists are in identifying fact from fiction.

    I accept the Marian Apparition at Lourdes, Fatima, LaSallette, and Paris…..but find something “not right” in the “visions” at Garabandal and Medjugore. I’m glad St. Louis disinvited the alleged seer, for giving him an audience may lead some to think the Church supports the visions.

  • Question

    “Jesus says that the Kingdom of God does not come in a way that attracts attention; it comes by wisdom.”

    Would one of you bible scholars please remind me exactly which quotes of Jesus the Pope is referencing?

    Isn’t rising from the dead kind of attracting attention?


  • Larry

    “It is more thorough than scientists are in identifying fact from fiction.”


    All hoaxes or made up. One and all.

    You distinguish between them is that the Catholic Church itself expressed its doubts of Garabandal and Medjugore due to incidents of profiteering, money laundering, and recent debunking.

    David Hume skewered this stuff (and virtually all anti-rational religious arguments) 3 centuries ago.
    1) no miracle is supported by testimony of a sufficient number to rule out falsehood.

    2) The sensations of surprise and wonder outside of past experience, often lead us to unreasonable beliefs.

    3) most reports of miraculous events occur amongst barbarous or ignorant people, who may not be sophisticated enough to disbelieve fabricated testimony.

    4) every religion claims the truth of its own miracles against the miracles of other religions, the evidence of all other religions opposes the evidence in favor of…

  • James Carr

    Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies given to the Jews. For only the last 3 years of His life was attention paid to Him due to His preaching, His miracles, and His ultimate Resurrection.

    These proved His Divinity, he wasn’t a travelling magic act. His miracles were always attached to His Words, proof that faith in God can cause the natural order to be changed.

    All visions and messages after Jesus are part of private revelation and add nothing new to the faith, or they are false messages. True visionaries are often given a task to do, but never draw attention to themselves. The public’s fascination with them is not their fault, and most spend their life resisting the public eye.

  • James Carr

    Yeah, yeah…..

  • Larry

    Had you not made the ignorant crack about church official miracle investigators being “more thorough than scientists are in identifying fact from fiction”, I would have let it slide.

    But that was rather silly on your part. It simply means you have trouble distinguishing fact from fiction and attacked people who are unencumbered by such difficulties.

    If you ever desire to read more than just one book, Hume is a great philosopher to pick up. He cuts through centuries of accumulated assumptions and self-referential nonsense. Plus his volumes are pretty thin. Quick reads.

  • James Carr

    Ignorant crack? Shirley, you jest.

    The Catholic Church dislikes visions and miracles almost as much as atheists. There is too much room for fraud, mental illness, or religious fanaticism in these reported events.

    Not one miraculous event is taken at face value, those involved are interrogated endlessly, some are disciplined for years from speaking of the event(s), and the criteria for the event to be accepted as reasonable is incredibly high. The Church, also, makes no demand on Catholics to believe the event if they choose not to; it only states that an approved miracle is worthy of belief.

    Pasteur, involved in a miracle investigation at Lourdes……which proved to be an unexplainable cure, still stated that he would not ever believe in miracles. Nice outlook by a realist, a master of experiment…….I guess only atheistic scientists can prove anything, right? Rubbish.

  • James Carr

    I’m familiar with Hume. The great philosopher that was suspect of the Negro race, that all races were inferior to the White race. Yeah, the expert.

  • Larry

    Don’t call me Shirley! So you are overly credulous. The Catholic Church currently dislikes visions and miracles. In the past, it was a great tool for solidifying public support.

    Where such miracles and visions allegedly occur, they do brisk tourism business bolstering coffers beyond the collection plate. The Catholic Church hasn’t banned the practice.

    What passes for interrogation and “acceptable level of proof” with such church investigations, wouldn’t pass muster in the barest of objective criteria. In most cases they were debunked decades ago.

    “Pasteur, involved in a miracle investigation at Lourdes……which proved to be an unexplainable cure”

    “Unexplainable” is not proof of miracles. That is an argument from ignorance. Making a default argument rather than bothering to look. Plus the account was largely hearsay and subject to 20 years of distortion and selective use of evidence.

  • Larry

    Hume wrote in the 18th Century. Back in his day people could be purchased as chattel property. A practice very much encouraged by every nation with state sponsored Christianity and our own secular state.

    Nice shot at ad hominem. But it hardly attacks his views on empiricism.

  • James Carr

    No, Pasteur was directly involved in the miracle at the time.

  • James Carr

    Yet you embrace his philosophy as brilliant and sound. This enlightened man is the expert on miracles, yet sees his fellow man as less than himself. He is just like today’ s atheists; rabble rousers who label religion superstitious mumbo jumbo that controls the masses.

    Aquinas, Augustine, Newman, etc.were all imbeciles who simply used their minds to fortify the myth of God and Religion.

    Makes sense.

  • Larry

    Unexplained still doesn’t mean miracle. So was Pasteur the subject of the miracle or investigating it. Because both as you stated means that he can’t be considered objective and credible in any sense here.

    This easily falls under Hume’s first two reasons for not accepting miracles:

    1. You can’t rule out falsehood. Appeal to authority does not change that.

    2. The sensations of surprise and wonder outside of past experience, often lead us to unreasonable beliefs. Hence the fallacy of appealing to ignorance makes up the majority of claims of miracles.

    In fact much of the support for miracle cures do not hold up when examined by more modern methods and medical knowledge.

  • Larry

    “He is just like today’ s atheists; rabble rousers who label religion superstitious mumbo jumbo that controls the masses.”

    That is quite true. 300 years later, he is still correct.

    “Aquinas, Augustine, Newman, etc.were all imbeciles who simply used their minds to fortify the myth of God and Religion.”

    Your words, not mine. 🙂

    Aquinas was not above making crap up when it suited him. His notions of “natural law” are baseless assumption personified. So your statement is not as sarcastic as you expect. 🙂

    So do you criticize our founding fathers for the same thing that Hume believed?

    Do we criticize Mark Twain for using the N-word in his works?

    Of course not. Your attempt at ad hominem fails miserably.

  • Greg

    Larry, Pascal chose to wager, not knowing what would happen on the other side. Whereas, many today, choose to ignore Pascal’s wager, and instead choose the strong-headed approach of denial. What will you do if Pascal was correct, and you stand before the Master of the Universe in Judgment after you breathe your last?

  • Greg

    Regarding the authenticity of these apparitions, well, the Vatican has yet to pronounce judgment. What is clear is that there is an endless volume of good fruit surrounding those who’ve visited the area: long lasting conversions, physical healings, including many who had been paralyzed for decades, long lines for the confessionals, Eucharistic Adoration, a renewed life of prayer, changed lives (repentance), and the list goes on. So we will see. But miracles aren’t the main thing, it is the good fruits the church looks for as well.

  • James Carr

    Oops……my reference to Louis Pasteur was wrong…..it was Emil Zola, who actually witnessed TWO miracles at Lourdes, and denied both…….

  • Aquinas, Augustine, Newman, etc. were sincere individuals who synthesized materials from their social milieu to produce elegant innovations and adaptations to their religious tradition in such a skillful manner that they appeared to be natural extensions of the previous (yet quite different) faith. They were well-intentioned. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No, Aquinas, Augustine and Newman were not imbeciles…they were honest, hard-working men with tragic legacies, deserving careful study especially in the Catholic-atheist community.

  • Honesty

    It would be very hard for the Church to Condemn Medjugorje now..Too many Millions from all over the World have been there…Too Many have been healed of Incurable ailments..The Same is True for Garabandal..It would be a very dumb Move on the part of the Church as we would just ignore them and it would push us further away from the Church..Remember they took away Saint Padre Pio’s right to be a Priest in Public and Condemned Saint Faustina Kawalska’s Diary only to have it over turned and them made Saints..So we Laugh at the Church when they condemn saints and Apparitions and show utter disregard for our faith.

  • Hope

    The Truth is, the Vatican can’t approve these apparitions, because if they do, they will agree with the Truth. The Truth is that the Apostasy is in full bloom at the Vatican. The Hierarchy is not taking direction from the Blessed Mother, so the proof is in Sister Lucia Dos Santos (Fatima Apparitions) mysterious imposter. Take a look at the interviews between Art Bell and Fr Malachi Martin. See for yourself. Don’t expect Medjugorge to be approved because Medjugorge Belongs to Mary! The Vatican has no authority over it. And the Testimonials of Thousands upon Thousands of Miracles & Conversions are Approval of itself! Praise God!!! For what comes from God NEVER DIES, and the Vatican just might find itself fighting against GOD! Pray for your Priests and Hierarchy! They were called to serve by God, but some in very high places are serving themselves… at the cost of souls and their own damnation.