March 27, 2015
Beliefs

Cardinal Raymond Burke: Gays, remarried Catholics, murderers are all the same

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Cardinal Raymond L. Burke leaves the concluding session of the extraordinary Synod of Bishops on the family at the Vatican Oct. 18, shortly before he lost his post as prefect of the Supreme Court of the Apostolic Signature. He is now patron of the Knights of Malta, based in Rome. Photo by Paul Haring, courtesy of Catholic News Service

Cardinal Raymond L. Burke leaves the concluding session of the extraordinary Synod of Bishops on the family at the Vatican Oct. 18, shortly before he lost his post as prefect of the Supreme Court of the Apostolic Signature. He is now patron of the Knights of Malta, based in Rome. Photo by Paul Haring, courtesy of Catholic News Service

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(RNS) The Catholic Church has always taught that sin is sin, but few people see killing someone as equivalent to marrying a lifelong same-sex partner.

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  • Candy Man

    When I read stories like this I am so happy that I left the RC Church. There’s nothing like some out of touch person telling me that because I am divorced that I am no better than a killer.

    So much for “Loving thy neighbor as thyself”.

  • Ben in oakland

    I wonder how the “good” Cardinal sees centuries of child molesting and the subsequent cover ups by the church hierarchy?

    I believe the Latin term is “solito negotium”.

  • The Great God Pan

    At least he is honest, unlike the creepy Pope Francis who is luring people into Catholicism;s grasp with a bunch of fake “progressive” window dressing. Francis fans, take note! Cardinal Burke is the real deal. This is Catholicism! Take it or (hopefully) leave it.

  • James Carr

    Now, here’s a Cardinal that has real balls. What he says about sin is foundationally true; sin is sin, and no act of goodness wipes away a mortal sin….only absolution in Confession can accomplish that. The Catholic Church cannot change this fact, it can only instruct the world on its interpretation. Pope Francis may not care for this type of brutal honesty, but the Cardinal is on safe ground with his view.
    Atheists, of course, can point to this as an intolerable mindset, but since there is no God, there is no sin, nor any consequences for immorality.
    Protestants, all 5,000 sects, can pick and choose
    what they agree with from this doctrine, since they are watered down Catholicism ,anyway ,and they remain forever heretical in form and
    practice.
    I like this guy. Shame the press only highlights the splashiest part of a full interview…… have at it, heathens….haha !

  • elemteacher

    This is journalism trying to fire up the crowd–in other words, sensationalism. What the priest is saying is that ANY sin condemns. It doesn’t matter if it’s murder or making a face at your mom. Unless you’re perfect (and I can think of only one person who ever was), you are in need of salvation. Whether your sins are many and of a higher order, or few and petty, your soul is condemned and needs the grace of God in Christ’s sacrifice to be redeemed. Quit writing so much into his words,

  • Greg

    A mortal sin is an act that involves “grave matter,” (serious), that the person knows it is a serious matter before God Almighty, and then consciously committing the act. And of course the sins of the flesh qualify in that regard.

  • “The cardinal also blamed gay clergy for the church’s sexual abuse crisis”

    What a disgusting person.

    Yet – this has always been the Christian message:

    “HATE OTHERS” – JESUS (Luke 14:26)

    Christianity is a very aggressive, LOVELESS, divisive, repulsive UNTRUE theory – and that is why it must be publicly disgraced.

    Raymond Burke projects the purest Christianity:

    “Avoid Them” (Romans 16:17)
    “have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.” (2 Thessalonian 3:14)
    “If anyone does not love the Lord, let that person be cursed!” (1 Corinthians 16:22)

    Jesus is disgusting, horrific garbage.

  • Greg

    Yes, the comments should have been expressed in a way that would have encouraged you to apply for an annulment so to see if there is a way to correct your situation within Church law, and before God Almighty (what you bind on earth is bound in heaven (Matt 18:18).

  • elemteacher,

    “What the priest is saying is that ANY sin condemns.”

    No – what he is saying is MURDER is equal to being gay.
    In other words, being born with an extra finger is equal to being Hitler. It is all the “same level of sin” to this crackpot.

    He is a poster child for the depravity of your religion. Depravity, abjection and willful ignorance.

    Telling humans they must run a gauntlet of abject nonsense because of a cesspool of superstitious garbage (Jesus) is an assault on every human being on earth.

    Christianity – like all superstition – leads to wickedness.
    It is horrific garbage.

  • Greg

    The problem was magnified to such an extent in the news, that one would think that 75% of priests were gay and/or child molesters. The reality is that less than 3 percent of priests were accused, and many of those men were proven to have been falsely accused. But I will say this much, though, that any priest or bishop who was involved in such despicable crimes, need to resign, and retire in solitude, so to contemplate before God Almighty the damage they’ve done to the Body of Christ, otherwise it will be a long, painful, horrible eternity in hell.

  • Shawnie5

    Exactly, Elemteacher. This is what Jesus was talking about in the sermon on the mount. What we in our fallenness classify as “big sins” and “small sins” are equally capable of separating us from God, so in that sense they ARE all the same.

  • The once ambitious, but still pretentious, prelate is resigned to being perceived as a putz. He seems to have a serious case of “look at me!” syndrome. So much for humility.

    Ad hominem aside he should consider the damage that he is doing to gay children and the children of gay couples. Neither deserve to have themselves or their parents gratuitously likened to murderers. “Gratuitous” is the right word because none of this hate speech was necessary.

  • opheliart

    “Telling humans they must run a gauntlet of abject nonsense because of a cesspool of superstitious garbage (Jesus) is an assault on every human being on earth.”

    Leave Jesus out this …
    you are as ignorant as those using Scripture for hate agenda. How are you different if you spew nonsense? Jesus didn’t build an Institution that demoralized and destroyed generations of individuals not like them—RELIGION did! You can’t prove that Jesus built the Roman Catholic Church and neither can they. You don’t know the Christ–you never did—so decide what you hate: Jesus or Institution. Make up your mind. Grow up and start acting like you care about moving people forward in their understanding on these matters rather than being a foul-mouthed brat.

  • opheliart

    “Jesus is disgusting, horrific garbage.”

    Get over yourself, A. M.
    You are a dishonest person. WE have not forgotten your predator way the last time we were on RNS. You attacked and said things about opheliart that were not true. Time to grow up.

  • opheliart

    correction:

    Leave Jesus out ‘of’ this …

  • Opheliart,

    “Leave Jesus out of this”

    He’s a priest. He is bringing Jesus into this – not me.

    “HATE THEM…or you are not worthy of me” – JESUS (Luke 14:26)

    Religion is the divisive nonsense at the core of Burke’s ideology – the religion of JESUS.

  • Doc Anthony

    Well, you know me, Max — I just LOVE that good ole evil wicked depraved abject cesspool Bible-believing Christianity !!!!

  • James Carr

    He is not damaging the sensitivity of the gays or their adopted children. He’s stating facts without adornment. It is a good learning lesson for all, not politically correct mumbo jumbo.

  • opheliart

    A. M.,

    We have read your your flip-flop rhetoric for months. You are inconsistent and emotionally dizzying. Don’t attack and disparage LIFE you do not know–never experienced! If you have evidence of an individual or an institution that shows bad behavior, hypocrisy, MURDER … then bring it forth, otherwise leave your hate Jesus agenda for your homeschooling.

  • Dave Green

    The teachings of Jesus and those of the Romanists may as well be two different religions.

  • opheliart

    “The teachings of Jesus and those of the Romanists may as well be two different religions.”

    Well, Dave Green, that just might be the crux of what’s finally coming to a head. If the Romanists want their god of Institution, with their overloaded bed of insobriety … they can certainly have it, but they have not shown their doctrinal system to be compatible with the Teachings of Christ

    … and they are being called out.

    Peace

  • Opheliart,

    I do not engage in personal attacks on commentors. I refuse to be dragged there.

    I remain focused on Cardinal Burke.
    He is advocating arguments which encourage violence and division – he is full of hatreds based on his Christianity – which is simple fascism.

    “I have come to bring fire…What constraints! I am impatient to bring NOT PEACE BUT DIVISION.” – Jesus (Luke 12:49-51)
    “Hate your parents…hate your life, or you are not worthy of me” – Jesus (Luke 14:26)
    “Be condemned to Hell” – Jesus (John 6:53-54) (Mark 16:16).
    “I shall kill her children with Death” – Jesus (REV. 2:23)

    Jesus advocates murder and drowning people with millstones and cutting people to pieces.

    “Execute them in front of me” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    Burke could lead ISIS.

    Jesus has invented more misery in this world than any other theory invented by mankind. There is nothing “dishonest” in saying so.

  • Op,

    “Don’t attack and disparage LIFE”

    I come to the DEFENSE OF LIFE! In the face of Bully Clerics like Burke!

    I am pro-gay, pro-women, pro-LIFE!
    Burke is the embodiment of a disgusting, hateful religion – the cult of Jesus – which brings nothing but misery wherever it takes root!

    “HATE THEM for me” – JESUS (LUKE 14:26)

    Who could find this defensible?
    Jesus is despicable.

  • OP,

    “they have not shown their doctrinal system to be compatible with the Teachings of Christ”

    That is exactly where you are wrong.

    “The Teachings of Christ” are hatred of others. Pure Fascism, Absolutism and Tribalism. The most base, disgusting emotions.
    Jesus condemned them, telling them they would be subject to slaughter in this life, and then they would get Hell in the next.

    And it is all based on superstitious nonsense. Shame on this clown named Cardinal Burke. He is the poster boy for where this garbage leads.

  • OP,

    “Get over yourself, A. M.”

    This has nothing at all to do with me.
    Cardinal Burke and other priests who disparage gays should be thrown in jail for incitement.

    “The only cure for homosexuals is that they be put to death” – Pastor Robbie Galaty, Tennessee Megachurch, Sept 4, 2014

    Christianity is despicable in uncountable ways.

  • opheliart

    “I do not engage in personal attacks on commentors. I refuse to be dragged there.”

    You absolute did! And you do! Go back over months of your posts and reread them and you might find yourself ashamed.

  • opheliart

    “That is exactly where you are wrong.

    “The Teachings of Christ” are hatred of others. Pure Fascism, Absolutism and Tribalism. The most base, disgusting emotions.
    Jesus condemned them, telling them they would be subject to slaughter in this life, and then they would get Hell in the next.”

    You steeped in a dogmatic institution for 44 years … what the heck do you know of the Teachings of Christ? YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT CHRIST!
    Like those who abused the Verse, you do not understand the Language. Not everyone reads, sees, HEARS AND UNDERSTANDS the same way, A.M. … get this through your head. Hearing on the Word of God is of the heart. If you read ill will torture, murder, manipulation, abuse and misuse, deception, lying, control of others … you are HEARING these incorrectly. These words are highly symbolic … but only for those truly willing, desiring its Truth. To one of gnosis, the Verse is our Name—our Spirit Gift, which is of Wisdom, our Sophia. So do not insult us,…

  • opheliart

    continued …

    the Verse can be like a science experiment or a math problem ongoing … a painting, poetry … that is challenging, experiential in form and faith … not garbage, AM. We read these differently than you. Our hearing is not like yours. We are different. So, we are alien to you … why are you anti-alien? Why are you anti-gnostic? Why do you demean and make racial slurs against us? What—we don’t look like you? Talk like you? We speak a different language and you think it is your duty to discriminate and degrade us? Okay, you hate our poetry—our language—our Wisdom—our PAINTING … that is your right … but we also have the right to tell you that you know nothing about us, and to tell you that you are dishonest in your words and foul in your attacks on us, and we have the right to defend what we hear and experience as Truth, which is our breathing—our COMMUNITY. You do not know us.

  • OP,

    “You are racist and a sad, tired old Atheist bigot.”

    1. I don’t attack believers or commentors.

    2. If it is not racist to promote religion to a non-believer IT CANNOT BE RACIST to argue against religion to people who do not read their bibles.

    3. I have never made a racist comment in my life. Where is your evidence of such a thing?

    4. Sad? Yes – I’m sad that Arabic, Pakistani, Turkish, Indian Atheists are killed every day by Fascist Islamists.

    5. Sad? Yes – that women can’t drive in Muslim countries and when they are raped they get more blame than the rapist. Muslim women are lashed 200 times for being raped. Yes, that makes me very sad!!!!

    6. Old Atheist? Guilty. But I’m still younger than Johnny Depp!

    7. Bigot? Look who has judged me! You don’t like old people (like Johnny depp) and you don’t like Atheists (like Paul Newman or Jonas Salk) – I’ll let you think about that for yourself.

  • Greg,

    30,000 cases of child rape in the USA!
    And those are only the ones we know about!

    Do other institutions have pedophile rapists? Yup – and they get SENT TO PRISON!

    But if you are a Catholic Priest you don’t go to jail or get arrested – you get a cushy suite to hide in at the Vatican like CARDINAL BERNARD LAW, the Pedophile Priest Network Kingpin of Boston Pedophile Priest Network!

    Where is that greasy jerk today? In jail?
    NO – he’s in the Vatican!

    Nothing is more evil than the idea that you don’t need to worry about the wrong things you do – because a simple blessing from Jesus makes you white as snow!

    Vicarious Redemption is the most evil of all man made ideas.

  • OP:

    “YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT CHRIST!”

    I know what I read:
    “Kill them” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    I know what Christians do:
    “In the name of Christ, we shall end this Jewish poison” – HITLER

    I know what Christians say:
    “Kill all homosexuals, it is the only cure” – Pastor Robbie Galaty, Tennessee Megachurch.

    “Execute them” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)
    “Execute them” – JESUS (LUKE 19:27)
    “EXECUTE THEM” – JESUS (LUKE 19:27)

    Have you never seen someone die for absolutely no reason?

    Christians have burned 300,000 people alive simply because they were accused of witchcraft.

    If Jesus ever existed, he should be ashamed to have ever lived.
    Christianity is despicable garbage. And I claim the right to say so under the Atheist Constitution of the United States of America.

  • OP:

    “Verse can be like a science experiment or a math problem ongoing … a painting, poetry”

    Is that what you call it when Hitler says:
    “I believe my Savior was a soldier…..We shall end this Jewish poison”

    That is just some poetry to you?

    6 million Jews died because of Jesus’ “Poetry”.

    “Bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their King and execute them in front of me.” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    How many innocent people must be burned to death before people wake up from this colossal pile of garbage?

    Did you admire ISIS for burning that poor pilot last month?
    Did you know that poor man loved rabbits and loved his family? He died for nothing!

    “Slay the infidel wherever you find him” – Surah 9:2

    Religion is an ongoing disgrace to humanity. Have you no shame?

  • Candy Man

    Greg,

    You can always purchase an annulment from the church. But with people like the good Cardinal in any position of power I’m happy I left the church.

  • Candy Man

    James,

    You’re correct it is a good learning lesson, we have all learned what type of person the Cardinal is. Perhaps the good Cardinal can learn a lesson or two as well.

  • James,

    “facts without adornment.”

    Fact: Religion is worthless nonsense.
    Jesus is the single worst superstition ever invented by the ignorant knuckleheads in the ancient caves of the deserts.

  • The Great God Pan

    Dearest Opheliart,

    Do you normally refer to yourself in the third person, or did you forget to post this comment under a different name?

  • Greg

    No CandyMan, annulments are not purchased from the Church. Our Lord was very clear in Matthew 19:9 when he said, “I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” And we know the penalty for adultery. The Church only assesses the previous marriage to ascertain whether it was truly a sacramental marriage (joined by God Almighty), or whether it was lacking certain necessities which would make it sacramental. And if it was lacking form in some manner, then the Church will proclaim the first marriage as having been only a “civil marriage,” and that person would then be free to remarry in the Church. It is a very sound process, and when the Church makes judgment on it, then it is bound in heaven, as well (Matthew 18:18)–and you will never hear about it at your Judgment.

  • Greg

    Last time I checked, there were many former Catholic priests in jail for these crimes. And those 30,000 cases you mentioned occurred over 40 years. And digging deeper into it, you’ll find that a very small percentage of Catholic priests did all the deeds. I believe in Europe, for example, 149 priests over decades were responsible for 3000 of their crimes. The numbers are similar for the States. But to give you perspective, as of last year there were 412,236 Catholic priests worldwide. So the percentage is very small. But even one case is too many. The difference between the other institutions you mentioned, is that the Catholic Church has actually implemented major changes for accepting candidates for the priesthood. Other churches haven’t done a single thing but merely stay hidden in the shadows, and they have even worse numbers for these offenses. Go figure.

  • opheliart

    Max,

    do people use the word “execute” in American Society without referring to murder?

    Please, do yourself and your Militant Atheist Admin a favor and grow up. You talk like a bully on a playground who wants everyone to play his game. ATHEIST Constitution? Are you delusional? Try this: an ongoing “agreement” toward HUMANISM for ALL People, because not all are extremists like you.

    … and try to stop being so offensive.

    You are the frat boy on the bus chanting the “n” word because you were never taught to know better. Someone will report you for slander and racist rants … if they haven’t already … but it’s coming.

  • opheliart

    Dear Great Pan,

    *glad you asked about the “third” person.

    I do not work alone. There are people who want to speak but are afraid or can’t right now. Some have been terribly abused. My point was to let it be known through “opheliart” (ophelia means ‘help’ and art is ‘the arts’). It is not about me, not for me, L Thiel, as I am quite well, and very fortunate to be able to do as I do (working on 2 trilogies, have Spirrealism, Spirit Art Movement founded and growing, ongoing study on the symbology of Scripture, am a mother of 2, have a fabulous non believer in the Holy Spirit husband, and have a wonderful little Jack Russell Terrier companion we call Gracie … many friends, including our dear wildlife *I take this very seriously).

    Also, isn’t it WE THE PEOPLE and not merely Atheist Agenda?

    Peace

  • opheliart

    “Verse can be like a science experiment or a math problem ongoing … a painting, poetry”

    Is that what you call it when Hitler says:
    “I believe my Savior was a soldier…..We shall end this Jewish poison”

    That is just some poetry to you?

    6 million Jews died because of Jesus’ “Poetry”.

    The above is Atheist Max AGENDA … TWISTING for his own intent.

    Comparing us with Hitler? This is dishonest, Max, and if you can’t see it then you are a liar and a fraud. Anyone can take anything written and misuse it—use it for his own agenda. YOU ARE LIVING PROOF OF THIS! Look at you on these threads with the same old tired rotting agenda. It’s pathetic.

    You are not even worth dialoguing with.

  • opheliart

    Interesting, Pan, you make an important point. Although I am not clear on his particular doctrinal language, but his concern for feminism in the church sounds exactly like the Vatican trying to give the impression their institution is NOT so patriarchal ‘these days’, and this is just not true. It’s as patriarchal now as it ever was. They play games with the media and Gibson is either in league with these games, or not aware of how he is being used for their agenda. The Vatican is clever that way. Look at this in terms of their patterns and you will see it. They pretend … 🙂 They play off each other … this is quite clear … and this is where Fran is confusing the catholics. It’s propaganda. They waste precious time with their silly games.

  • opheliart

    Go through and point out exactly where Fran has made any significant change. What do you see? He is a Political Puppet. A populist pope to pacify because the catholics having been starving for change …
    The RC Institution must decide whether they want to be a Political Institution or a Religion. Are they the Romanists … the Roman Religion … the Catholic Religion … what are they? They do not represent Christ, but so much of Christianity does not represent the Christ. Christ is not a Religion. So … where is Christianity? Christians and Catholics must decide. As one of gnosis, we view all of Christendom (Christianity) right now as Catholic as it is of Patriarchal Dominion.

  • opheliart

    Let it be known that Atheist Max wants ATHEIST AGENDA (tasteless as these caps may be, Larry) for all of the United States of America, probably even the world. He is the one spewing HATRED in a way that incites violence. How do you think the Stalins of the world got their start? Fueling hatred for a one System Agenda. How is he different from what the Roman Church wanted, or any dictator in history? Please, RNS, everybody, see this for what it is. Now, I don’t take Max as a Stalin (not yet) … but there are Stalins out there feeding on Max’s tainted verbiage.

  • Christ Follower

    AM – You are right, many who call themselves Christians have done and said horrible things. Christian means Christ follower and if you are acting in a way that is not of love, kindness and the abolishing of sin, not sinners but sin, then you are not following Christ. Jesus knows all things, we don’t. God is pure unadulterated love but we as people are not and we screw up every day no matter how much we try not to. When I refer to all people this includes priests. ALL people sin this is why I don’t get it why some treat Anyone like little god’s that is so wrong. I am so sorry that the actions of sinful people has so hurt you that you see Jesus through the behavior of those who profess to be Christians. Jesus loves you and he wants a relationship with you. We all learn about each other by a personal relationship not a secondary one through others. I pray that you would ask God to show you what he has to say in His Word without the distortion of mans sin distorting it.

  • Christ Follower

    Gods word speaks against favoritism. We will all face the consequences of our sin in one way or another. Christ’s blessing is about eternal forgiveness not wiping away earthly consequences. Being a priest does not put you above any other but it does hold you accountable before God to be a good example to others and share his truth. . God will judge us all but even in that judgement he will not turn away those who want him and seek to follow him. This means to earnestly look, learn and live out Gods word when we fail do better next time. Making excuses is crap, but confessing and repenting is how we learn to do all things better, this is life.

  • This bishop is wrong and will be silenced by Francis again. The Apostle Paul wrote in the end love will remain. ” If you have no love you are a clanging cymbal” Meaning you just make noise which is all Cardinal Raymond Burke does. He only makes noise. Pope Francis removed him from the highest Vatican Court and now I know why. Jesus said ” by their fruits will you know them” Cardinal Burke is not the poster child of the love of Jesus or God’s mercy. Pope Francis said the church of Jesus must be a place of healing and mercy. This Cardinal also blames the shortage of priests on altar girls. Gays and remarried are not like murderers as this bishop says. I work with 3 gay people and they are nice people. Once in my life I was a divorced Catholic but got my annulment. Let him who has no sin cast the first stone Cardinal Raymond Burke. I will debate you on God’s love and mercy and I’m a catholic clergy.

  • I wonder how the “good” Cardinal sees centuries of child molesting and the subsequent cover ups by the church hierarchy?

    He does not ‘see’ it because you’re trafficking in historical fiction. Try harder not to be a fraud.

  • S. Klein

    “But the move seems to have left Burke free to air his conservative — and pointed — views on efforts to change church practices…”

    “Gays, remarried Catholics, murderers are all the same…” is not a conservatuve view,

  • Greg

    Amen, Christ Follower. But is it necessary to put it in perspective. Come to me, says the Lord, and I will give you rest (Matthew 11:28). The ways of this world are tiring. I’d say come Lord Jesus, and give this crazy world a dose of sanity, but that would mean the loss of so many souls.

  • Greg

    Opheliart: Rather than just throwing out accusations against the Catholic Church, why not give us some examples of why Jesus taught one thing, and the Catholic Church is teaching another? You throw grenades, but do not give examples. I have yet to find a Catholic Doctrine that doesn’t square with the Bible.

  • opheliart

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Bonhoeffer.html

    *Aside … Bonhoeffer was executed by hanging on APRIL 9, 1945. We will be doing a small remembrance of his work on our wordpress on Thurs, the 9th. It might be nice to see something here on RNS.

    Thank you

  • OP,

    “A.M. is the frat boy shouting the ‘n’ word!”

    I am not the ‘frat boy with the ‘n’ word’ – I’m pointing to the bullies:

    “Execute them”– JESUS (Luke 19:27)
    “Hate Them” – JESUS (Luke 14:26)
    “Avoid Them” – ROMANS (16:17)
    “Do not associate with the GUILTY..” (1 Corinthians 5:11)
    “Bad company….” (1 Corinthians 15:33)
    “Do not even to eat with such a one.” (1 Corinthians 5:11)
    “Do not receive him…or greet him..” (2 John 1:10)
    “tell him his fault.” (Matthew 18:15)
    “Have nothing to do with him!” (Titus 3:9-11)
    “LET HIM BE REMOVED” (1 Corinthians 1:13)
    “In the name of Jesus..keep away from him!” (2 Thess 3:6)
    “CURSE HIM” – (1 Cor. 16:22)
    “Deem them unworthy” – JESUS (Matt 10:13)

    Despicable and cruel.
    I would never live my life being so cruel!

    You dare to call this humble !
    For shame! The New Testament is simply dangerous nonsense.

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  • “Bonhoeffer was executed…”

    Yes. He was executed by confessing Catholic Christians in defense of Christian ideals:
    “Bring to those who would not have me as their King and execute them in front of me” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)
    Bonhoeffer’s crime was to reject the Bible and its despicable dogma (as Jesuits do) and instead behave like a humanist.

    It is an assault on humanity to propagate the lie that anyone needs an ancient book to tell them that killing innocent people is wrong!

  • OP

    “stop being so offensive.”

    How am I being offensive? I’m just sharing the tender words
    of Christianity:

    “CURSE HIM” – (1 Cor. 16:22)
    “Deem them unworthy” – JESUS (Matt 10:13)

    I never said anything offensive. I never would.
    I reject this stuff – remember?

    “Hate Them” – JESUS (Luke 14:26)
    “Avoid Them” – ROMANS (16:17)

    I don’t follow this stuff – remember?

    “Do not even to eat with such a one.” (1 Corinthians 5:11)
    “Do not receive him…or greet him..” (2 John 1:10)

    I just try to be nice and I ask people to stop being bullies.
    I happen to not particularly like bullies.

  • “You absolute did!”

    No I didn’t.
    Name one place where I engaged in personal attacks.

    I argue against cruelty.
    I argue against hatred.
    I argue against racism.
    I argue against bad, ignorant, stupid ideas.

    People have rights – including the right to think and to question.
    Ideas do not have rights.

    RNS shows Religious people following their godly orders – and doing incredibly wicked things as a result.

    If it is not bigotry to preach about Jesus to non-believers
    It cannot be bigotry to preach against Jesus.

    I DO NOT OWE IT TO THE USED CAR SALESMAN TO RESPECT HIS RUSTING JALOPY!

    Nor do I owe it to the Jesus Salesman to respect his insidious garbage.

    “Execute them” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    Christianity is loveless, hateful nonsense. Christians are victims of the undeserved respect which has been given to this garbage for centuries.

  • Ben in oakland

    You should tell that to Frank Schubert, professional Good Christian (TM), who left his wife and two children to marry wife number two.

    You should tell that to a Republican former congressman, who committed adultery with his fornicating mistress, divorcing wife #1 to marry his mistress and make her wife number 2. He then committed adultery with his fornicating mistress, divorcing wife #2 to marry his mistress and make her wife number 3. And he got married in the church.

    It’s amazing how power and money can purchase an annulment in order to bind in heaven what is bound on earth.

  • Sister,

    “Hate the sin, but love the sinner!”

    DISGUSTING FACT:
    CHRISTIANS BELIEVED that if a witch was burned alive her soul would to go to heaven –

    BURNING PEOPLE ALIVE WAS A WAY TO LOVE THE SINNER BUT HATE THE SIN!!!

    The burning of the person alive was a way to ensure the spirit would still go to heaven despite the person’s SUPPOSED sin of witchcraft.

    “If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved–even though only as one escaping through the flames.” – (1 Corinthians 3:5)

    Good grief!
    Are there no sane, modern people on these RNS board other than me??

    Religion is a catastrophe of superstition and nonsense. I support your right to your beliefs – but for crying out loud! Wake up!

  • Jonathan

    I’m sorry..When did you escape from your padded cell??

  • you tell that to JESUS on Judgement Day, bet you don’t believe in that either!!!!!!!!!!! sorry I pray for people like you.

  • Billysees

    David Cary Hart,

    “…he should consider the damage that he is doing to gay children and the children of gay couples.

    Neither deserve to have themselves or their parents gratuitously likened to murderers.”

    So very true.

  • Laurence Charles Ringo

    Oh my goodness,Opheliart…Seriously,will you and Atheist Max just give it a rest?? It ought to be painfully obvious by now that Max doesn’t actually know any authentic Christians,and most CERTAINLY doesn’t know how to read Scripture or have any idea who The Saviour is beyond his (Max’s) shallow, superficial surface readings of Jesus’ Words. Stop striving with Max,Opheliart!! Can’t you see by now what a gigantic waste of time it is? Please,just leave it alone; the man is stubbornly,wilfully ignorant of what Our Saviour taught and still teaches in His Word,and he’s so woefully lacking in exegetical skills it borders on the pathetic!—Leave Atheist Max alone,Opheliart,and as Yul Brenner said in the movie:…”Let him rave on that men may know him mad”…

  • @LC Ringo,

    “Yul Brenner”

    Yul Brynner was Atheist.

    Anyway – What needs to stop is this reflexive, idiotic nonsense that Jesus was somehow “good” or that his blessing to Cardinal Raymond Burke’s incitement of hatred against 10% of humanity is somehow good.

    Despicable and embarrassingly childish. This is a brain dead death cult. I’m for life – not death!

  • KATHERINE,

    “Judgement Day”

    This is one of the evils of Christianity – the foolishness that there will be some sacred day when all personal responsibility will be absolved.
    Childish, vulgar nonsense.

  • Greg

    Actually, you misinterpret the decrees of the Church. For a marriage to be a sacramental marriage, there must be dozens of things in order–according to Canon Law–in order for God to join the couple as “one flesh” (http://www.catholicdoors.com/misc/marriage/canonlaw.htm). And if even one of those things were missing, then the Church can find the marriage to have fallen short of being a sacrament. The other part to the annulment process is that the person applying for the annulment is assumed to be honest and trustworthy in their description of the accounts. In other words, if you specifically lied during the process, you might get the annulment, but you are still joined before God, and will be dealt with at your eternal Judgement. So annulments are a proclamation the a marriage is not sacramental, based upon all “honest” accounts before the court. There is no “buying” an annulment. My suspicion would be with the honesty of a politician applying for one. Read Matthew:19

  • opheliart

    Laurence Ringo (Ringo—really? interesting),

    Give what a rest? Can’t I share by way of Max the lacks?
    This isn’t about him verses me, or him verses God … that would be an insult. If Max just HAS to be on these threads … Max will be used as is necessary … it’s not what WE would call pleasurable, but it serves a purpose.
    And hey … are you by any chance a Roman Catholic? If so, that might explain your post.

    Peace

  • opheliart

    A. M> states: “It is an assault on humanity to propagate the lie that anyone needs an ancient book to tell them that killing innocent people is wrong!”

    So, Maxi’s pad … when are you going to join the ranks of Humanity?

    I know another Max who served, despite his earlier work, in a way that showed tremendous LOVE. His name is Max Kolbe. You can look him up on the same Jewish Library as Bonhoeffer. Might YOU be so bold?

  • Be Brave

    “30,000 cases of child rape in the USA!
    And those are only the ones we know about!” – Atheist Max

    The USA is a SECULAR nation. and always has been.

    All the atheists groups say so.

    Fruit from the tree.

  • opheliart

    —-according to RC theology … but this is NEVER specified in HOLY Scripture, and since your Dominion is not God … and they cannot read minds, do not know how the Spirit may be using people … it’s all conjecture.

    Are you familiar with the word acumen, Greg? You might want to write your hierarchy and tell them they are being chastised … called out … told to be honest about their dealings, and if they continue in their ignorance and refusal to clean house … those decayed planks are being ripped down because they are a danger to many. They are patching infected wounds.

    Also, you might want to familiarize yourself with the Parable of the Vineyard … you know the one where the servants are sent to check the Master’s vineyard.

    If you call yourself a believer in Christ, Greg, you might want to learn who gives what and how—WHAT IS GOD. Allow us to remind you that it is not your doctrine of instability (you know … that sandy roost you call the church).

    Peace

  • Be Brave

    The atheist mantra has become laughable. Like a parrot babbling noises that sound like a human language.

    We see what godless secularism inspires. A plane of 149-higher primates led by a mentally ill higher primate with a pilots license slamming into a mountain side at 700-kilometers an hour.

    And of course other examples of secular godless-ism . . . a movie theater with its higher primate attendees as a shooting range for yet another mentally ill secularist-higher primate meting out more mental illness on others.

    Another mentally ill higher primate slaughtering young little higher primates in an unarmed public school?

    Drive by shootings by higher primate gang members slaughtering their higher primate neighbors in numbers that look like a secular war has been declared in our “urban centers.”

    Let’s see, Islam or godless secularism? What kills more fellow higher primates on this planet? Abortion? Secular selection of killing healthy unborn higher primates in…

  • opheliart

    Greg, Church Law—according to Romanism, but NOT Almighty God. Your doctrine is a childish manifestation of its own self-ignorance. The more I hear on this, the more I see its failure to provide healing. Your Institution knows nothing of Candy Man’s situation, or even if he is used by Spirit to show HOW and WHY your doctrine fails the people.

    You can quote Scripture all you want but you are trying to stand with a hump on your back the size of Texas. Don’t you know what Jesus told HIS Apostles? And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece … and that colt with only tunics on it is saying something about your what? Fleshly titles and h-e-a-v-y _____ on so young a _____. Wake, wee one and see the Light.

  • Be Brave

    It is an assault on humanity that animated dust people with a mentally ill mind demanding that everything in the universe happened by accident tell us that there is no God.

    Atheism drives dust people to believe they can rule those of us that reject the goofiness of materialism.

    What a typical and pathetic condition that atheism so drives animated dust people to showcase.

    But it is good to have such a common atheist to display the emptiness that drives them on.

    It’s always good to have such a classic example of the tortured, hate-filled mind of a materialist to show us why we logically reject it and they so soundly.

  • Be Brave

    Atheist Max March 27, 2015 at 9:26 pm
    OP,

    “I don’t attack believers or commentors.”

    Atheism drives the mind of the animated dust person holding atheistic worldviews to move their speech patterns to utter lies that other people can understand are lies.

    But I didn’t call you or any atheist a liar.

  • Doc Anthony

    Umm, 1 Cor. 3:15 (not 3:5, but 3:15), isn’t calling for the burning of witches, and in fact does not call for humans to burn anything at all.

    Please make sure you’re quoting Bible verses in context, Max. Here’s the paragraph that gives the right context:

    10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
    **15** If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

    See the difference,…

  • “I didn’t call you or any atheist a liar.”

    Exactly correct. You didn’t. And that is why it doesn’t amount to a personal insult.
    Because the subject of your sentence was ‘Atheism’ not ‘Atheist Max’.

    You have every right to call Atheism dishonest if that is what you think it is – that is not a personal attack on me.
    I similarly have every right to call Christianity evil – that is not an attack on Christians but the philosophy which they are victimized by.

  • My love of children is superior to whatever nonsense you are selling.
    I must speak up in their defense.

    Religious genital mutilation – an entirely faith-based depravity – is a disgrace to humanity and an ongoing assault on their helpless little bodies! Girls and boys grow up entirely disfigured and emotionally injured by these depraved practices and you obviously don’t care about that at all.

    Shame on Christianity and Jesus in particular for these multiple depravities and this profound indifference to human suffering.

  • Ophelia,

    Oscar Schindler was an Atheist – I guess you would like to see him not get any credit for saving Jews? – he had nothing to motivate him except his own humanitarian impulse. Humanitarianism is exactly what is so disfigured by religion.

    Humanitarianism = Kindness and Compassion

    BUT
    Humanitarianism + God = EVIL
    Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Queda, ISIS
    They all claim to be doing good in GOD’S NAME!
    “Slay Them” – Surah 9:2

    Meanwhile Bonhoffer and Kolbe were executed by the same sword they were selling: Fanatical Christianity!
    “My Savior was a fighter” – Hitler
    “Execute them” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    Religion is despicable bunk.

  • opheliart

    AM states: Religious genital mutilation – an entirely faith-based depravity – is a disgrace to humanity and an ongoing assault on their helpless little bodies! Girls and boys grow up entirely disfigured and emotionally injured by these depraved practices and you obviously don’t care about that at all.

    *I have been informed your rants of this nature (and numerous others) have been reported for its insinuation. Do not think you can’t be investigated and charged on these—you can. There is a group that looks into online rants like yours to see if there is cause for investigation. Anti-semitism is a serious concern for many at present … in case you had not noticed.

  • Yes, the correct chapter and verse is 1 Corinthians 3:15

    The only thing which is important is how this verse has been used throughout history.

    Burning the building, ‘the temple’ (the human body) does not hurt the ‘spirit’ but releases the spirit.
    Science shows us that when the brain dies that is the end – there is no ‘spirit’.

    Regardless of whether one is religious or not – the idea that a body should be burned as a way to care for the sinner and send the sinner’s spirit to heaven is an abject superstition and must be rejected for the repulsive idea right out of hand.

    The people who wrote the Bible were so damn ignorant they did not know where the sun went at night.
    It is a disgrace that any modern person would take the Bible or the Q’uran seriously.

  • opheliart

    AM states: Oscar Schindler was an Atheist – I guess you would like to see him not get any credit for saving Jews? – he had nothing to motivate him except his own humanitarian impulse. Humanitarianism is exactly what is so disfigured by religion.

    Now, Max … where in the world would you get the idea that I would not give Oscar Schindler credit for saving Jews. I have nothing against Atheists. You are delusional! You love to ASSUME things about others to make your statements somehow credible, but they show your dishonesty … and show a serious lack of attention.
    I brought up Bonhoeffer because April 9 is coming up … and I brought up Kolbe and Bonhoeffer to demonstrate to you that not all
    people who believe in Jesus/Christ/God/Spirit are as YOU claim … in all your awful accusations. You need to seek help, Max … you have gone dangerously bankrupt in your ability to understand real life situations.

  • You are blaming Atheism for an airline tragedy?

    FYI – Drive by shooting by gangs are 100% Christian. None of those people ever claim to be atheist. Belief in God has never protected anyone from anything.

    98% of the National Academy of Sciences are Atheist.
    That is about 3000 people.

    Why have none of them murdered anyone? Why have none of them gone to prison? Why is their credit score perfect? Why are they such incredibly generous and helpful members of our society?

    Why are all the Atheist countries in the world the most peaceful and prosperous: Scandinavia, The Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Greenland, Iceland, Germany, most of France….?

    Why are all the states with most Atheists also the richest states, with the least crime and he happiest people?

    Wherever religion is strong, life sucks: Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Saudi, Yemen, Egypt, Texas, Alabama….

  • “I just LOVE that good ole evil wicked…Christianity ….”

    And look what it has done to Cardinal Raymond Burke!

  • Shawnie5

    How about angry people?

    Jesus likened them to murderers in God’s eyes.

    All things that can separate us from God are functionally the same. That is the whole point of the sermon on the mount.

    Don’t be pharisaical — they were also conventionally “nice” people who were mightily offended that Jesus would classify them with murderers and other sinners. And they had children too! 😀

  • Greg

    Opheliart: CandyMan has every right to go to a Catholic Church, and apply for an annulment. The rest of your post is just emotional. Please, Sacred Scripture needs to be taken as a whole, and not just in isolated quotes. The Catholic Church uses every scripture associated with a topic before trying to understand what it truly means. You need to do the same.

  • Michael Pawlikowski

    What ever happened to the moral sin of usury?

  • “not all people who believe in Jesus/Christ/God/Spirit are as YOU claim”

    I have claimed nothing about people who believe. good grief, broken record.

    I have pointed out to you that Boenhoffer and Kolbe were victims of the exact thing they preached:

    “Execute them” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    And Nazis followed Jesus just as Boehhoffer’s and Kolbe’s advocated.
    Why won’t you understand?

    Nazis were the most devout Catholic Jesus Lovers of all time – they killed MILLIONS for Christ. Boehhoffer and Kolbe were doing Christianity all wrong – don’t you know? The right Christians were the Nazis, according to the Nazis.

    If you preach “Execute them” you cannot be surprised if it comes back to bite you!

  • Shawnie,

    “angry people…Jesus likened them to murderers in God’s eyes.”

    God should get his eyes repaired.
    Because if anger is the same as murder that would be an immoral equivalency.

    The Jesus character is described as angry plenty of times – as is Yahweh – as is the Devil as is Noah — This is beyond stupidity to claim such things are equal to murder.

    “God’s ways” and “God’s eyes” are garbage and bunk. Foolish arguments like these are what makes it clear this superstitious mumbo jumbo must be abandoned quickly.

  • @Be Cowardly,

    “Why can’t Burke have the right to freedom of religion, conscience and speech?”

    Nobody is taking away any of his rights. It is great that he has come out as a Nazi. He has every right to love being a Nazi and to promote Nazi ideals and principles.

    His free speech is safe. The consequences are that he will be a public clown.

    But Apparently It is our free speech which you are trying to silence.

    I’m calling Cardinal Burke a despicable, racist, bigot Nazi. That is what you want silenced.

    Fat chance! LOL!

  • opheliart

    No, Greg, you see through a PARTIAL lens, as your Institution created laws that suited “its” agenda. Step outside of it and the Verse becomes available through what?
    Your choice is your choice, but in no way does your doctrine speak as God’s Word. Ask yourself HOW in God’s Name it speaks for your Institution and you begin to see the problems.

    Peace

  • opheliart

    Stones? My-my … aren’t you the shallow liturgy today. What you believe may be what you receive.

    Haven’t you been “testing” your vision?

  • @Opheliart,

    “Do not think you can’t be investigated and charged on these—you can.”

    For what? Nothing illegal is going on here.
    For talking about genital mutilation of innocent children? This somehow insinuates ….what exactly? Muslims, Jews and Christians engage in these mutilation practices – it is entirely fair to challenge this.

    I’m not the one advocating bad things. I’m the guy who wants Christians to examine why Cardinal Burke is so hateful. Look at his philosophy he lives by:

    “Kill homosexuals” – Leviticus 20:13
    “Kill them in front of me” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    Why is it so unbelievably difficult to get through to religious people?

    It is obvious that these philosophies are just frightening, dangerous nonsense. Have you no feelings for gays?

    People have every right to believe in this stuff.
    But I see nothing respectful in being silent about it in the meantime.

  • Greg

    Opheliart: Actually I see very clearly. I do not submit to the Catholic Church because it says, do this, or do that. No, I have studied Christianity in an historical manner, and have determined that the Catholic Church of today, is no different than the Church of 1000 years ago, or almost 2000 years ago. It is one and the same, as it should be. And you should consider doing your own study. You should stop listening to your “feelings” and start discovering Truth. Truth is where God is, as He is Truth. I’m sorry for being so blunt.

  • “There is a group that looks into online rants like yours..”

    My rants would bore them too much. Everyone knows I fully support Separation of Church and State and religious freedom.

    You keep trying to change the topic off Cardinal Raymond Burke.

    Anyone who examines the preachments of Jesus will see why Burke says the divisive and hateful things he does.

    What should be done about Burke?

    He should be allowed to retire and be left alone.
    His words should echo through the culture so Christians everywhere can hear what it sounds like when someone proclaims Christianity as their philosophy:
    Religion is an assault on gays, women and human intelligence.

    And I have every right to say so. As much as Burke!

  • ben in oakland

    So, Debbie, are you Karla, Danielle, or all three of you?

  • opheliart

    Greg, no apology necessary. If someone feeds on milk only, and never solid food … what happens? You THINK you know what is truth, but you have fed ‘within’ WHAT this entire time you say you studied? Studied how? Where? Same place … just walking in circular Theory. Read Vladimir Lossky—circling? Read The Philokalia … oh, but hey, the Orthodox will tell you you be messin’ with some serious head winds you try to go it alone. I can see your forensics—your make-up. You have not been exercised. I can tell by your liturgical vestments. The big, bad GNOSTICS are coming dreamboy, and you haven’t got the feed to fight 🙂 Who are these people? First, I am of gnosis— not Gnosticism. Many coming will be, formally, our very bright and “constitutionally” erect … Atheists. Yup. Many of these will catch the wind—as I have been saying: Their b a-a-ck! Kidding 😀 I said the Atheists will have their day. God shows no what?

    Do you really think I care about Religion? RC? The people.

  • Shawnie5

    But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother WITHOUT A CAUSE shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.”

    Jesus’ ange was not without cause.

  • Greg

    Opheliart: I understand God very well. And luckily, God understands each of us. And, as has happened in the Church over the past 2 millenia, whenever a problem such as the pedophilia/homosexual predator issue of our day has occurred, God has always ripped the scab off the problematic wound, so that all can see it (such as this one), and slowly cleansed the Church with a meticulous weeding out of the problem. We are seeing that happen before our eyes. This will likely take 50 years to clean up, but once it does, the Church will once again be without spot or wrinkle (Eph 5:27). In the meantime, however, it is like watching sausage being made. Have patience, God’s time is not equivalent to man’s time (2Ptr 3:8).

  • Shawnie,

    “Jesus’ anger was not without cause”

    Oh, Good grief!! Whose is?
    This ridiculous Jesus nonsense must be abandoned.

    Next you’ll be telling me The Big Bad Wolf didn’t really mean to huff and puff and blow down the pig’s house.

    The Jesus character is fictional in the same way Hercules is fictional – it is gussied up story full of legends and nonsense. His ‘anger’ is worth discussing ??
    Nonsense.

  • The Great God Pan

    “Drive by shootings by … gang members …”

    Do you mean Black Protestants y los Catolicos, complete with crucifix bling and tattoos depicting either La Virgen Maria or the phrase “Only God can judge me,” a lesson derived from the Bible via convicted rapist Tupac Shakur?

    No secularism there, I’m afraid.

  • Shawnie5

    “Oh, Good grief!! Whose is?”

    Everybody’s, some time or other. Probably most of the war and violence of human history is owning to the rage arising from envious spite.

    “This ridiculous Jesus nonsense must be abandoned.”

    Well, it’s not going to be, so you’re going to have to figure out a way to go on living alongside it that doesn’t overstress your heart and blood pressure, OK?

  • opheliart

    Ah … Greg? Did you miss this?

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-32004240

    God does not ordain for corruption, ignorance, abuse AND misuse of others. Either your pope is playing politics to try to maintain some measure of control (see the new laws on abortion in Chile), or he is without sense and reason, understood as delusional (in keeping with being IMMATURE). What is the Romanist Church without those wombs to bear children? “Breeding like rabbits” (to use another’s quote) was the order of the day for institutions that desire numbers, which translates to what? And keeping them poor and afraid is a tactic dictators use everywhere they have control. Allowing women to die in hospitals is MURDER! It’s murder … and who would love to be able to continue this creed? I know of a RC priest who spoke out on radio during a sermon about the indecency of the death of women on this and he got in trouble for it. This is telling … so, Greg, are you a criminal, or not? Your…

  • opheliart

    come to think of it … this was in Indiana!

  • Dudley Beecham

    Art Deco — And I guess you think the Holocaust is a fiction, too.

  • roald

    That pedophiles are attracted to positions where they can abuse more easily is both a given and not the point of the disgust the the church. The “sin” was the church hierarchy caring more about the priests than the parishioners.

  • opheliart

    CENTURIES of child sexual abuse, Greg … what does this tell you about the VISION of your superiors? Also, they admitted covering up these horrible crimes, and let me remind you … THESE ARE CRIMINAL ACTS! What minds knowingly allow this misconduct for centuries? and you think this is Godly? Wow, Greg … wake from your paralyzed slumber … either your are spiritually brain-seized or collaborating in hiding and covering up this abuse. What the heck are you people feeding on that TRUSTS an organization that has your track record? Presidents who get caught breaking the law get what? And you think your superiors are exempt from this? Your pope just ordained a man who is criminal! Will you deny the voice of the children—calling them liars?

    This business with Burke is all a smokescreen … so damn stupid!

  • Garson Abuita

    She’s three in one, three separate persons but united in one Commenter-Head. I know, it’s confusing..remind you of anything?
    Sorry Karla, I just couldn’t resist.

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  • Jack

    Greg, I appreciate your points about annulment, which I didn’t know, but Ben make a point here. I’ll have to read more about the annulment process.

  • Jack

    Greg, if you don’t mind my asking, is there one particular book which you like the best, and which lays out the case for the notion that the Roman Catholic Church is the one true church that goes back to the 12 apostles? I mean a book that presents hard-headed historical evidence and that accurately and fairly presents the opposing view while refuting it.

    As a non-Catholic, I would certainly be willing to hear you out…..I think your position is faced with what appear to be insurmountable obstacles, but again, I am willing to read arguments to the contrary.

  • Larry

    “The USA is a SECULAR nation. and always has been.
    All the atheists groups say so.”

    Well that and the first Amendment. That pesky thing which theocrats who hate freedom rail against all the time.

    It protects the religious practices of ALL faiths, not just yours and keeps the government from endorsing religious belief. So nabobs can’t claim that the nation belongs to or only recognizes Christians.

    To rail against secularism is to announce that you want to see all religions, but your own discriminated against. The Christian Fundamentalist agenda in a nutshell.

  • Larry

    Its a big sin. To care more about people doing harm than showing concern for those harmed. It shows a gravely immoral indifference to the public and an arrogance that their concerns are not important enough to address.

    Kind of like when people discuss granting people license to discriminate in their business and show utter indifference and disdain for the public being discriminated against.

    Christian privilege evidently means never having to be responsible for the consequences of one’s bad acts.

  • Larry

    There is nothing brutally honest about pointing out the sins of one’s self while ignoring glaring obvious ones they have committed. It is hypocritical to discuss public moral conduct when one has covered up, minimized, and denied rampant abuse done under his watch.

    Motes and planks here. Cardinal Burke has a mighty big plank in his eye. Pardon me if I don’t give a flying crap what he has to say about the motes in others.

  • Ex-RC, happy Christian

    Amen, Amen. Raymond Burke is the absolute definition of hypocrisy. Can you imagine calling yourself a Christian and speaking such judgmental hatred? I too am an ex-Catholic and have never been stronger in my faith as a non-denominational Christian. Kudos to the pope for demoting him but like so many clergy who have violated the most basic human rights, he is only demoted, not defrocked and fired. How about blaming the sexual abuse of children on the fact that girls are allowed to be altar servers? Seriously? How is he allowed to represent the Catholic church in any way, shape or form? It’s no wonder people are leaving this form of religion by the droves.

  • Loving a same sex partner = leaving someone dead? Not a sin-meter I can trust

  • Greg

    Jack, Wow I’ve read so many, hundreds and hundreds, and each one adds a bit more perspective. I guess it depends where you are coming from. If you are Protestant, maybe Rome Sweet Home by Scott Hahn. Or if you are looking for Catholic doctrinal balance to Fundamentalist arguments, maybe Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating. There is not one complete book out there that I know of, but maybe those two might be a good place to get started. Or there is online stuff, for example: http://chnetwork.org/2012/02/a-protestant-historian-discovers-the-catholic-church-conversion-story-of-a-david-anders-ph-d/
    Lastly you might want to tune in to The Journey Home, Monday nights at 8:00 on EWTN television. Let me know if that helps.

  • Greg

    Two books that I found just enjoyable to read are Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners, and Theology and Sanity. Those cause you think beyond–for example–the oversimplification of Evangelical Christianity, and into the mind of God. But they were written for Catholics back in the 1940’s but still great.

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  • John

    Annulments are a papist invention to circumvent clear Biblical teaching on divorce. It is about finding an excuse to say what happened didn’t happen so that people can keep on doing what they want to do and the church can keep on getting money from the sheep. That is the common thread in all these discussions for reform and change. What keeps the sheep feeding money to the shepherds?

  • John

    Greg,

    You claim the Roman church is no different from the church 2,000 years ago.

    Then explain this:

    The faith/church of St. Paul according to his letter to the church in Ephesus: Chapter 2 vs 8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

    The Roman Church, Council of Trent:
    Canon 11 If anyone says that by faith alone the impious is justified…let him be anathema
    Canon 12 If anyone shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ’s, or that is is this confidence alone by which we are justified…let him be accursed.

    You can keep your Pope. I’d rather have Jesus as my Savior.

  • Greg

    Hi John,

    As for annulments, St. Paul states by his authority that remarriage is possible if the non-believing spouse leaves the marriage (1Cor 7:15), the Catholic Church calls that the Pauline Privilege. Additionally, our Lord leaves open a very debatable reason for divorce and remarriage in Matthew 19:9 & 5:32, saying “except for fornication.” Well, explain for me what fornication means? Fornication can only happen before a marriage is contracted. Once married it is “adultery.” So what is he getting at there? And there are additional verses. But you are correct, marriage should be forever, but in our world today, temptation abounds. As for faith/works, we have to read all of scripture to understand what St. Paul means. For example: James 2:14-26: “What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? … Thus faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” The answer is we need both.

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  • Peter

    Go purge your sorry self, Burke. You are THE perfect reason of how all deadly militant religions must rot right down in the very abyss of hell. Humanity has no use whatsoever of bigots like you.

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  • Brien Doyle

    This man represents all that is vile and reprehensible in not just his religion but most religions. They discriminate, They judge and most of them still punish; all from NO authority that they can prove to exist.
    This is insolent to human rights and arrogant.

  • Hoglad

    What’s the penalty for people, specifically members of religious organisations, who rape and torture children?

  • bob

    Greg; I have read ALL of the above posts. You have taken the time to read and research Catholic church teaching and presented them in a clear,concise fashion. I applaud you for not making emotional, argumentative comments that are based on your opinions or emotions. You speak from a sound knowledge in church teaching, instead of gathering sound bites from worldly sources.

    If you are Christian of ANY denomination, pray for God to grant you wisdom, understanding and discernment to do HIS will and not your interpretation of what you agree with. The only way to the true enlightenment of God is to first empty yourself of your human inclinations and preconceptions and ask the Holy Spirit to speak to your heart.
    For the Atheist, this forum will not change what you believe. I hope you treat everyone with human dignity,love,respect and kindness, because even if you do not believe in God, these virtues serve to let us all live in greater harmony as humans in this difficult world. Peace.

  • I agree with you. I wonder how many pedophile priests Burke passed along to new parishes, whose insupecting parishioners would have no reason to know a predator now had their children in his sights? Pedophiles are worse than murderers, but the church “princes,” who enable these priest-creatures to continue rape and mortally desecrate little children? There can be no deeper pit in a Hell to toss these purple decorated administrative monsters.