Oklahoma Satanist church wants permission to distribute books in elementary school

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The Church of Ahriman, a Satanist church in Oklahoma City, has asked permission to distribute Satanist literature at Woodrow Wilson Elementary School. Photographed here is one of the church's books, "Ahrimani Enlightenment" by Adam Daniels, the church's leader. For use with RNS-OKLA-SATAN, transmitted on April 14, 2015, Photo courtesy of Adam Daniels

The Church of Ahriman, a Satanist church in Oklahoma City, has asked permission to distribute Satanist literature at Woodrow Wilson Elementary School. Photographed here is one of the church's books, "Ahrimani Enlightenment" by Adam Daniels, the church's leader. For use with RNS-OKLA-SATAN, transmitted on April 14, 2015, Photo courtesy of Adam Daniels

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OKLAHOMA CITY (RNS) In a letter to the school district, some 80 miles south of Oklahoma City, a church leader assured administrators that the Satanic book is “no where (sic) near as graphic as the Christian Bible.”

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  • Fran

    Satan the Devil, his organization and followers are definitely trying to exert more influence on mankind in these last days of a wicked era, the signs of which were prophecied by Jesus when on earth (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21).

    They know they have a short time left, especially Satan and his demons, since they will be abyssed for 1,000 years during Jesus’ upcoming millennial rule. What a relief that rule will be without them!

  • James Carr

    Oh my God.

    Belief in Satan presumes a belief in God, naturally. Satan, without question, is evil personified……the source of all the horrors of the world and the corrupter of man’s free will and conscience. There is no narrative of Satan that is pro-goodness, or worthy of imitating.

    The word Church or Religion do not sensibly apply to this kind of vile worship. Schools should just toss the morons out who wish to pander this crap to our youth. Use common sense, please. Have people lost their minds when it comes to saying “No”, or “Shut up” to obvious dangers to civilization?

  • Elaine

    Absolutely!

    Goose ‘n Gander.

    Good for one, good for the other.

    Go ahead and get those kids a copy of the Bhagavad Gita, while you’re at it.

  • Just Stop

    Stop shoving your religion down our throats and we’ll stop bitching about said religion. Keep religion personal and respectful. Simple. Why is this so hard to understand? YOUR religion is not MY religion.

  • hooray for someone brave enough to exercise the law. Every creed and religion should have equal rights. When I was younger, the Christians prayer was part of our public school education. Indoctrinating children is despicable and is no example of love that I’ve ever heard of. Everyone should have an equal right to choose their own path….

  • Nick Johnson

    Satanism is generally a symbolic statement rather than what someone would think of as a religion. I imagine 99% of “satanists” don’t believe in the devil or god. It’s a rejection of dogma and embracing of freedom of thought and knowledge.
    The cornerstone of Satanism is mistrust and denial of classical religious teachings. (The meek shall inherit, be humble, obedience is the highest virtue, ect)
    The real danger to civilization is allowing any magical thinking to be forced onto impressionable children. I guarantee that no satanist “church” has tried to publish literature to schoolchildren or evangelize in any way, unless it was in an effort to force a school board or other governing body to respect the constitutional rights and responsibilities that are so often conveniently “forgotten” by the Christian majority.
    “Tossing the morons out” should apply to anyone trying to teach fairy tales in a place of real learning. 🙂

  • treedweller

    Why do you think you should get to decide whose religions are valid and whose aren’t? There are many people who find your religion just as offensive as you find this one. And I say that not knowing what your religion is. Religion is inherently divisive, which is why our Constitution does not allow the government to mix with any religion.

  • Greg

    Last time I checked they weren’t giving Bibles out in the Public Schools. If the government feels the need to separate religion from the schools, then it applies here too.

  • Greg

    The reason is because Christians founded this nation, and it continues to be a Christian nation. The First Amendment right of freedom to exercise religion mostly implied that all Christian denominations had the right to exist, and freely practice their religion; moreover, it meant that there would not be a State run denomination. It had nothing to do with a satanic church founded upon evil. All the good we have come to expect in this country has for the most part come from Christianity.

  • Michael M

    “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” – Isaiah 45:7
    From killing first born infants, killing Israelites over bad bread, all of the way to wiping nearly every man, woman and child off the face of Earth with a flood…Satan has nothing on your god when it comes to murder, evil, and immorality.
    I picture Yahweh as a abusive, narcissistic, cigar smoking, fat unshaven slob in a dirty t-shirt .
    I personally don’t want my kids to think something like is watching them.

  • Michael M

    Greg – You obviously have the Christian version of history, rather than factual history.
    Some of the founding fathers were Christians, some were deists, and some were Atheists. There is a reason that the Deist terms (“Nature’s God” and “Creator”) were used in the Declaration of Independence, rather than the Christian terms. The is also no reference to any “god” in the Constitution. This was quite intentional.

    “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity…” – Treaty of Tripoli

  • Nonmouse

    Yeah…. that’d be why there are all those qualifications and weasel words in the Constitution, when it addresses religion- “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States. Except, you know, to make sure you’re a good, God-fearing Christian. That’s totally okay.” Not to mention “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion (unless it’s a Christian church, of course. But it’s gotta be non-denominational, okay?), or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, except in the case of non-Christian religions. It’s totes okay to burn those heathens out with fire. Just leave the Christians from other denominations alone, okay? Well, except for Catholics- those Papist idolaters are as bad as Jews or Muslims. So, what we REALLY mean is no setting one of the Protestant churches above the others. Got it?”

  • Larry

    “The reason is because Christians founded this nation”

    So Christians are entitled to more rights and privileges than any other faith under our laws? Obviously so. When have you stopped hating American freedoms?

    That is not what the 1st Amendment says. The 1st Amendment said explicitly and was always intended to apply to ALL RELIGIONS not just Christian denominations, can practice their faiths> Only dominionist liars state it only applies to Christians. The Establishment clause means more than just no state run denominations, it means the government does not favor ANY religions in its laws and efforts.

    Greg, you should be ashamed to call yourself an American. You show obvious contempt for the very concept of religious freedom.

  • TNT

    This is a pretty long reply from someone who doesn’t know the first thing about that religion. You’re only going off what your own religion has told you about Satan.
    It shouldn’t be ok to pass out either book in school to defenseless children. They should be taught critical thinking and make up their own minds when they’re old enough. Introduction to an idea is fine, indoctrination is programming someone lacking the capacity to defend themself intellectually.

  • Thecla

    Of course ‘Satanists’ aren’t devil-worshippers. They’re just hostile atheists baiting Christians and, unfortunately, many Christians are taking the bait.

    As a Christian I have no problem with statues of the horned god in public places or with the distribution of Satanic materials to school children. Or with the distribution of Bibles to school children. Or with any religious symbols or ceremonies in schools or other public places. Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Zoroastrian, Satanist, Wiccan or generic Pagan–let’s have it all out there for people to enjoy or ignore as they please. Whatever is the problem?

  • Carol Parker

    These particular “satanists” are secular humanists, they do not, in fact, believe in Satan, or god.

  • Larry
  • Toddius Monk

    Greg is 100% correct. All you need to do refer to the Library of Congress to see how the first Congress declared days of fasting, prayer and thanksgiving to the Lord Jesus Christ.

    http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html

    The hired chaplains for themselves and the military and the two most prominent “Deists”, Jefferson and Franklin, recommended that our national seal represent the parting of the Red Sea.

    What version is there other than the Christian one?

    http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html

  • Toddius Monk

    Larry,

    You should brush up on your American history because the first Congress most certainly favored Christianity and measurably so. Read about it for yourself on the Library of Congress website: http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html

    You should be ashamed of yourself for ignorance of the facts you claim to know so well.

  • Re: “They’re just hostile atheists baiting Christians and, unfortunately, many Christians are taking the bait.”

    “Hostile”? Why “hostile”? All they’re doing is making a point of behaving in ways that Christians behave. Christians want their idols on government property, so these Satanists ask to have their own on government property. Christians want to distribute their sacred books to public-school students, so these Satanists ask to distribute theirs.

    There’s no “hostility” here … unless one defines the notion of “turnabout is fair play” as inherently “hostile.”

    Of course, there’s another way Christians might take this, which is to learn the lesson that’s being conveyed and stop using government to promote their religion. I’m not sure how or why that’s such a big deal, or so freaking hard for them to accept … but apparently it is.

  • Re: “The reason is because Christians founded this nation, and it continues to be a Christian nation.”

    Really? As an American, you think I’m obligated to be a Christian? If so, terrific. I invite you to track me down and make me one. Do whatever you feel necessary in order to force me to become a member of your precious “Christian nation.”

    If you don’t want to do this, I can only assume you don’t actually believe the the US is a “Christian nation” to be peopled only by “Christians,” in which case you’d be insincere, and a hypocrite to call this country something you know it not to be.

    The choice is yours. Whichever way you want to go is fine.

  • Re: “The hired chaplains for themselves and the military …”

    Many of the FFs also owned slaves. Would you advocate people going out to buy some? If your goal is to have every American emulate them, why would you not want this?

  • Heidi

    You really should find out what satanists actually believe before you start ranting about them. Since you probably aren’t going to check, they actually do not believe in a supernatural being named satan, and they generally don’t believe in god either. They do believe in ethics, fairness, self actualization, and generally being very decent people. I personally would like to see at least a few of those traits in christians.

  • Heidi

    Not a christian nation. Never has been, isn’t now, and thanks to our secular humanist constitution, never will be.

  • Heidi

    Hey religious genius, it wasn’t the red sea, it was the reed sea. Error in translation. You want to get the old testament right – talk to a jew. Which you all never do.

  • Ashley

    Speaking of the LOC, it holds T. Jefferson’s personal bible. You know, the one he cut out all the supposed miracles and superstitious bits. The one in tatters in other words. Ben Franklin was an admitted atheist, “lighthouses are more useful then churches”. George Washington wouldn’t take communion. And T.J. was writing to the baptists about the”wall of separation” when they were whining about the congregationalists. Learn indeed.

  • Diogenes

    My, the weirdos have come out of the woods today; hang in there Greg and Toddius Monk.

  • Gary Owen

    Have you actually read your bible? The god of the bible does way many more horrific things than satan does. The god of the bible is EVIL!

  • Judith Zetr

    Greg, If what you say is true, that America is a christian nation, why do you think christianity is not mentioned in the constitution? And why do you think it was never amended to include it? Some of the founding fathers were Deists and some clearly were Atheists. It is not logical that they would declare this a christian nation.

    Wanting something to be true does not make it so.

    I wish you Atheistic enlightenment and Secular well being.

  • Galen G

    Clearly you’ve missed the point

  • James Carr

    I agree, Dio. The crux of the comments above are chillingly scary. People defending any kind of rights to Satanists tells us something about them. The very name “God” is synonymous with goodness, beauty, and love, despite one’s belief or not. The name “Satan” on the other hand, incites images of cruelty, deceit, immorality, and garbage. How do they live with themselves?

  • Brien

    You are, of course, also referring to tossing out all the morons with beliefs in any spirits, right?!

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  • jay

    Actually the narrative of the satan/devil/lucifer actually has many positive themes that are simply obscured and bastardized by Christianity. For instance, we’re it not for the snake In The garden who enticed humanity to seek knowledge from the forbidden fruit we would still be slaves to our ignorance. To me that’s similar to the story of Promethius who defied the oppressive gods of Greek mythology to offer humanity a chance to enhance itself through knowledge. Lucifer is often defined as the adversary of Christianity that offers wisdom and knowledge where christians are taught to be passive sheep… a church congregation is a flock… Jesus their Shepard, etc… Christianity is a religion founded on passifying the masses with ignorance and promise of a better life through dying. Where lucifer often seeks to liberate people from their ignorance in order to enhance the one life we know we have.

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  • Larry

    Well of course, Greg is getting pasted for his anti-American views supporting religious persecution. I can’t help it if Christians like yourself have no concept of what religious freedom means.

  • Marie

    No, Larry has it right.

  • Marie

    “Toddius” just got PWNED bigtime.

  • Adam

    The Devil Worshipers, I being the author of the book, do believe in Ahriman aka Angra Mainyu. This is the Persian Devil who predates Zoroastrianism and is the template for the Jewish Ha-Satan and the Christian Lucifer. Yes, we Mainyu devotees. Our religion is humanistic by celebrating the animal nature of man. Make no mistake, we are a religion dedicated to the Devil, and we proved it with the Black Mass.

  • Thecla

    One persons modus ponens is another persons modus tollens as they say.

    Their idea is ‘if you’re going to have your Christian idols on government property then you must allow us to have our Satanic idols on government property. But of course you don’t…’ I on the other hand am a sincere modus ponens: I want my idols on government property and I would be perfectly happy to see Satanic idols, and everyone else’s idols on government property too.

    ‘Satanists’ are making the case that public space should be free of religious symbols—no special privileges for Christians in public space or in the schools. I agree. No special privileges for any religion. However I’d like to see LOTS of religion of every sort in public spaces including the Satanists’ It’s freaking hard for me to accept their policy because I think religion, all religion including Satanism, is a valuable cultural amenity: public space is colder, duller and more boring without it. So, as a Christian—and I am not being…

  • Garson Abuita

    The Satan character in the Old Testament always was a loyal angel in God’s service, serving as the Accuser or Adversary of humanity, sometimes likened to a prosecutor but never an evil being. Only after the Persian conquest of Babylon did Zoroastrian concepts of an evil “devil” enter Judaism and never in the canon. But Christianity did adopt this concept, translating helel in Isaiah 14:12, the “shining one,” a dig at the Babylonian king, as “light bearer”= Lucifer.

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  • Adam

    Satan” in the Bible.
    But after the Exile the Jewish mind becomes unable to refer to God, as formerly, everything that has happened and continues to happen in the world. As early as the prologue to the Book of Job, and in Zech. iii., Satan is spoken of in terms that show that he is no longer merely a servant of YHWH, but is, rather, a persecutor of man, actuated by personal motives in making mankind evil and in checking God’s work. In I Chron. xxi. 1, where the word “Satan” appears without the article, we have a new step in the development of his character, in that the figure of Satan is employed to explain a matter hitherto ascribed without further thought to God (compare II Sam. xxiv. 1). Satan acts (according to I Chron. xxi. 1) entirely on his own account in enticing David to commit sin. According to the Book of Daniel—composed about the year 168 B.C.—the whole of the history of the non-Jewish world, from the point when the Babylonian power first comes into contact with Israel…

  • Richard Young

    Just remember, if God created everything that means God created evil. I think Satan, Lucifer, Beelzebub or whatever you want to call it is just God wearing a different mask.

  • Norman Howden

    Talk about a HUGE loophole – if they can’t distribute literature during class time they’ll just do it during lunch or on the playground!

  • Thomas Jefferson

    The chief deity in the bible drowned the world that is murder, there were newborns in the flood. Later on he kills his own son or himself. Have you read the book?

  • roald

    When I looked at the website, it provided pre-constitution information. Good thing that when we got around to doing it right, wiser heads prevailed.

  • Shawnie5

    Ben Franklin was not an atheist. Neither was Washington. And though Jefferson was not Christian and did not believe in the divinity of Christ, he was not an atheist either.

    Don’t count on atheist websites for information. Read the founders works themselves. Most of them are accessible online.

  • Larry

    So what would Jefferson be if he did not believe in the divine (supernatural) or ascribed to the tenets of any given religion?
    …..

    The 1st Amendment was never intended either explicitly by the text of implicitly (meaning without any credible support) solely for the benefits of Christians or just Christian denominations. The omission of referencing Christianity in the 1st Amendment was intentional.
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/amend_1.htm

    Any discussion of the Founder’s religious belief is therefore an irrelevance to the situation. None of them created a system where any such religious belief has any kind of given power under the law. The 1st Amendment protects all faiths by supporting none. To claim it is solely for use by and for Christians is disgusting and dishonest.

  • Fran

    Treedweller,

    Yes, false religion is very divisive, whereas truth is very uniting. And while the Constitution does not allow government to mix with any religion, so many religions chose to mix with politics, instead of putting their trust in God. It’s no wonder, then, why there is so much division.

  • Fran

    Richard,

    God created everything perfect, even Adam and Eve. But Satan, in that condition and exercising free will, chose to challenge and condemn God’s rule over man and rightfulness of it, becoming a sinner. He then seduced Eve, telling her a lie about God, and both Adam and Eve disobeyed God, causing sin and death to enter their lives and the human family (John 8:44; Romans 5:12).

    However, the works of Satan, his demons, and those humans who follow him will be broken up (1 John 3:8).

    They also face eternal destruction at the end of the millennial rule of God’s kingdom (they are abyssed during that time; Revelation 20:1-3) after they are let loose to test mankind’s faith one last time (Revelation 20:7-10).

    Satan knows his time left to mislead mankind is short and we can see his increased activity and influence today.

  • Fran

    Thomas,

    Man’s wickedness in the days of Noah was so great and the earth was filled with violence (Genesis 6:5,11,12).

    However, Noah and his family were different from the majority in that they were righteous. God provided them with instructions to build an ark for their survival (Genesis 5:14-16) because he would bring about a worldwide flood.

    Noah is referred to as a preacher of righteousness to the wicked ones of his day (2 Peter 2:5); however, they refused to listen to him, until it was too late. God preserved righteous ones instead of destroying the entire earth and everyone on it.

    Matthew 24:37-39 days: “For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man (Jesus) will be. For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark..and they took no note until the Flood and swept them all away.” The wicked ones’ time left on earth is short.

  • Bryan

    Your god has a death count that rivals Stalin.

    Satan, on the other hand, has zero confirmed kills.

  • Bryan

    did you even read the article?

  • Bryan

    “The very name “God” is synonymous with goodness, beauty, and love”

    not to me it isn’t. to me, god is a capricious and evil bastard, and i’m glad he doesn’t exist.

  • Greg

    Michael, I understand your position. However, the principles of Christianity have both shaped this nation, and allowed it to prosper. I would like for you to look at the Communist countries of the 20th century, which threw out religion, and spoon fed the people from their empty cup of communism. So yes this country was built upon the sweat and blood of Christian immigrants. That is its heritage; and by extension, the three great religions as a whole also share in the mission, and are given freedom of religion. But for the Satanists, no, they are evil; it would be like giving ISIS free reign to destroy our country, with death, destruction, and chaos.

  • Greg

    Very few were atheists. Deists, yes, but deists believe in God … and most had a bible, and prayed. That is why the “free exercise of religion” clause in the First Amendment. It allows people to worship God, and believe in him as they choose.

  • Jay Bertz

    Right on Nick. If someone wants a Government and/or education system that promote God/Religion, all one has to do is look at the Middle East. Plenty of Muslim run countries over there that like killing, torturing people who don’t believe the same way as them.

  • Fran

    Bryan,

    Satan is the father of the lie and because of his original lie, helped to cause the death of Adam and Eve and all his descendants (Romans 5:12). His main goal is to turn people away from God and cause their deaths; while God’s purpose is for mankind to live forever on a paradise earth (Revelation 21:3-4), which will take place. They are total opposites.

  • Larry

    Waitaminute Rosemary’s Baby was fiction?

  • Larry

    Deists are not Christian. Their definition of God is not the one accepted by the Christian faith or any other. At best Deist is merely proto-agnostic or proto-humanist. What we would nowadays call “none” or “spiritual but not religious”.

    You said, “The First Amendment right of freedom to exercise religion mostly implied that all Christian denominations had the right to exist, and freely practice their religion’

    But that means you are saying that the founders wanted to protect a religion besides their own, to their own personal detriment. Of course that makes no sense. Your whole premise “1st Amendment is for Christians only’ was garbage. The first amendment allows people to not only worship God, but also Gods or worship nothing at all. It protects all religious views. Even atheists.

  • Greg

    Larry, why don’t you read the deist, Thomas Jefferson’s Bible.

  • Greg

    Larry, why don’t you study the larger picture of who founded America, from the Pilgrims, on. You slice out small snippets, set up a straw man, and scream victory as if history was a world that existed within a doll house. For the record, the Christian denominations were, and still are, widely varied in their beliefs. Each one might have a love for Christ, but some believe in the Trinity, others, only believe in the Father and Jesus, while others, yet, profess only the Father, with Jesus being St. Michael the Archangel (Jehovah’s). But each one calls itself Christian. What they believe is their business, and they have the Constitutional right to believe it, and exercise it. That is what the Founders, gave us.

  • Fran

    It is a fictional story/movie by man; however, when Jesus was on earth, he did cure persons who were demon-possessed, among the many types of miracles he performed (Matthew 4:24; 8:16, 28-33; 12:22; Mark 1:32; 5:15-20, just to name a few). Those events truly took place and were not fictional.

  • Fran

    Then why do they call themselves Satanists? Those who try to follow Christ Jesus are called Christians.

    As 1 John 3:8, 9 brings out: “The one who practices sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose, the son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil.”

    Thankfully, Satan and his demons are doomed to face eternal destruction (Revelation 20:10) and that will be a glorious day for all mankind on earth.

  • Fran

    True Christians can be found in many nations and/or countries on earth, not just the U.S.

  • Shawnie5

    I’m sure I don’t know exactly what Jefferson would be. He himself said that his creed defied classification: “I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know.” But one thing he clearly can not be called is an atheist.

    The founders clearly intended for the federal government to have no given religion, but they wanted very much for the populace to be religious, because they believed that from religion comes the virtue necessary to responsibly use the privilege of liberty. This comes through in all of the founders writings, if anybody cares to peruse the actual texts.

  • @Thecla (http://religionnews.com/2015/04/14/oklahoma-satanist-church-wants-permission-distribute-books-elementary-school/#comment-4547212):

    Re: “I on the other hand am a sincere modus ponens: I want my idols on government property and I would be perfectly happy to see Satanic idols, and everyone else’s idols on government property too.”

    OK, so where in there did you get the idea they had to be “hostile”? I don’t know where that accusation comes from. You haven’t substantiated it.

    Re: “It’s freaking hard for me to accept their policy because I think religion, all religion including Satanism, is a valuable cultural amenity: public space is colder, duller and more boring without it.”

    OK, so where in there did you get the idea they had to be “hostile”? I don’t know where that accusation comes from. You haven’t substantiated it.

  • Larry

    You mean the one which edits out the tenets of Christian religious dogma and supernatural nonsense. A proto-humanist text if ever there was one.

    When it comes to History, the works of Roger Williams and William Penn have eluded you. The colonies of PA and RI were set up as refuges for ALL faiths, not just Christianity and its sects. Much of that was a broadsides aimed at the theocracy set up in Massachusetts by the Pilgrims and Puritans. You may also want to read up on the Flushing Remonstrance as well.

    “What they believe is their business, and they have the Constitutional right to believe it, and exercise it. That is what the Founders, gave us.”

    And none of that has anything to do with your initial premise that the 1st Amendment religious freedoms applied to Christians only and your ridiculously limited take on the Establishment Clause. You have no concept of what religious liberty really means.

  • Larry

    There is nothing clear about it. That is just wishful thinking on your part. Atheism wasn’t a particularly fully formed concept in Jefferson’s era. Had he lived a a generation or two later it would be far easier to categorically declare or deny he was an atheist.

    One can definitely say he was a humanist (which is not synonymous with atheist). He denied supernatural belief, which in of itself does not equal atheist or preclude spirituality.

    In modern parlance he would fall under the category of “none” or “spiritual but not religious”.

  • Larry

    “However, the principles of Christianity have both shaped this nation, and allowed it to prosper”

    What principles are you talking about? People make such blanket (ignorant) statements without ever elaborating why it has to be taken seriously. You will find nothing in the central tenets of any Christian sect within our Constitution. Not even its most basic central principle, monotheism.

    You simply want to give credit to Christianity out of a desire for Christians to have privileged status in our laws. A complete denial of the very concepts of religious liberties. You made that much clear.

    You fail to realize the United States is the first country to ever throw out religion from the establishment of its government. Unlike any European power, there was never state sponsored religion. So we never had the anti-clericism associated with more modern revolutions. Religion and the state were never the same, so no backlash.

    Why do you hate religious freedom so much?

  • Larry

    Lets go one step further. Lets talk about the believers:

    Number of people killed in the name of Satan: None confirmed, possibly 20 or so if you want to count a number of serial killers unaffiliated with any sect or faith.

    Number of people killed in the name of Christ: Millions. Higher than Stalin’s if you count the 20 million killed in the Taiping Rebellion alone and ignore the genocide of indigenous Americans.

    Which is the more evil faith? 🙂

  • Sam

    Greg, why don’t you answer her actual question, rather than quibbling about who was deist and who atheist (as far as I know, Paine was atheist. Some of the others were deist. And some more were Christian). Her real question was:

    Why don’t you think the Constitution mentioned Christianity?

    It is not because Christianity was assumed. These were bright men aware of the existence of other religions.

    It is not because religion was overlooked. The establishment and free exercise clauses were discussed at great length at the constitutional conventions, with various options considered.

  • Sam

    Here’s the “evil” tenets of the Satanic Temple; why don’t you tell us how horrible they are?

    One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason.

    The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.

    One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.

    The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo your own.

    Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs.

    People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and resolve any harm that may have been caused.

    Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written…

  • Larry

    “Then why do they call themselves Satanists? ”

    To bait people like you into a panic inviting inevitable hypocritical attacks on the concept of free exercise of religion. Something many Conservative Christians only pay lip service to when they want to extract privileges and favors of civil society but don’t actually believe.

  • Larry

    Everyone who is devout in their religion thinks all others are “false”. Its why we don’t use such labels to decide who has the right to exercise their faith and who doesn’t. It is free to all. Whether you consider it “true” or not.

  • Shawnie5

    “Atheism wasn’t a particularly fully formed concept in Jefferson’s era.”

    Well, thank you for advertising how little you know of the writings of John Locke…who informed the views of Jefferson as well as most of the other founders.

    You don’t have to make it so easy, now…

    “Had he lived a a generation or two later it would be far easier to categorically declare or deny he was an atheist.”

    So you can now read the minds of the dead as well as the living???

    Sorry, not impressed.

  • Larry

    That one made far more sense in your head than it does on the page.

    John Locke’s view of government by mandate was taken whole hog. His view of religious tolerance for everyone but atheists, religious dissenters and ex-communicants, not so much.

    The colonies had their own homegrown philosophers on the subject. Unlike anything conceived by Locke, they also had clear examples religious freedom in practice in RI, PA and NY. The first amendment could have been taken right out of the Pennsylvania colonial charter.

  • thecla

    Nothing hangs on the word ‘hostile’ and I didn’t mean it as a slur. I just meant that they were OPPOSING a practice. Not that they were angry, nasty or whatever.

  • Shawnie5

    “His view of religious tolerance for everyone but atheists, religious dissenters and ex-communicants, not so much.”

    True, but I was not talking about Locke’s unwillingness to tolerate atheists but about his reasons for regarding atheism as so invidious to liberty and virtuous government.

    In any case, your claim that the founders just didn’t understand atheism is patently false.

    Francis Bacon, father of the scientific method, said it best long before Jefferson or Locke were ever born: “It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeth men’s minds about to religion.”

  • Shawnie5

    Bacon saw you and Max coming from centuries away, too, BTW:

    “For none deny, there is a God, but those, for whom it maketh that there were no God. It appeareth in nothing more, that atheism is rather in the lip, than in the heart of man, than by this; that atheists will ever be talking of that their opinion, as if they fainted in it, within themselves, and would be glad to be strengthened, by the consent of others. Nay more, you shall have atheists strive to get disciples, as it fareth with other sects.”

    Atheism “not fully formed,” my foot.

  • Tummy

    Which God are we trusting? Can I get trust in Thor validated? He’s pretty cool, and has a nifty hammer to smite those naughty idols. (Thor the Norse god, not the wussy marvel version…bleagh)

  • Dan

    ” to me, god is a capricious and evil bastard, and i’m glad he doesn’t exist.”

    Or “she”. 😉

  • Marie

    Bacon’s views were of his time. We have moved on shawnie. Well, some of us have, anyway. Separation of church and state is one of the great triumphs of America over religious tyranny. You and your lot are still trying to overturn it, but you will not succeed. It is a well-defended win founded in reason and benefits our nation greatly.

  • Marie

    Two thumbs up, Heidi.

  • Marie

    Just like True Scotsmen, and True Islamists. Uh huh, Fran, and which brand of “True” are you?

  • Marie

    Fran, news for you: you are deluded. Far more than most religious folk, actually.

  • shawnie5

    “Bacon’s views were of his time. We have moved on shawnie. Well, some of us have, anyway.”

    You and Larry and Max and the rest of the New Atheist crowd have not “moved” an inch. Five hundred years ago Bacon described you to a tee. That is the point.

    “Separation of church and state is one of the great triumphs of America over religious tyranny. You and your lot are still trying to overturn it, but you will not succeed.”

    I have no desire whatsoever to overturn it. I share Madison’s opinion that “it is impossible to deny that religion prevails with more zeal and a more exemplary priesthood than it ever did when established and patronized by public authority.” Without that separation we would never have become the most religious nation in the developed world but would be mired in characteristic European spiritual ignorance with ecclesiastical bureaucrats snoozing at their posts and drawing their pay.

  • samuel Johnston

    Hi Greg,
    ” yes, but deists believe in God” Some may, but I have never met one.
    Most simply accepted the notion of causality, but not a divine being as such, and certainly not a personal god.
    All this became moot when evolution offered another explanation. Since deists rushed to embrace evolution, I think it reasonable to suppose that they were not very attached to any anthropomorphic explanation.

  • Mikhorn

    You realize that the “satanists” don’t actually worship satan?

    They generally just aim to make christians over-react and look dumb doing silly things. It’s a mirror technique, trying to do exactly what christians are asking to do, but with emotionally charged names like “satan” substituted, doing the exact same actions as christians. Conservatives will blow their top and overreact and look stupid. Moderates will realize the original christian act was too much.

  • Larry

    “I have no desire whatsoever to overturn it. ”

    Then you should have been correcting Greg days ago, when he made his ignorant statements about religious freedom being for Christians only and his deliberate misstatement of the Establishment Clause.

    But you didn’t.

    So in the end, you don’t have a relevant point to make. Your posts are either a big waste of time, or you really agreed with Greg but were too cowardly to admit to it.

  • Fran

    James,

    “God” is a title, not a personal name; just as Satan, a personal name, has the title of “Devil.” However, the name of the only true God is Yahweh or Jehovah (Psalm 83:18).

  • Adam Daiels

    http://dorrance.stores.yahoo.net/ahen.html#

    Here is a link get that book.

  • Are you serious? “Satanist aren’t devil-worshipers”? If not, Who are they? Being a Christian, as you said, you are not supposed to be naïve. The Satanist know exactly WHO they are and WHAT they do. Fortunately, all Christians filled with Holy Spirit of God know them and are capable to identify them, and above all, they know what will happen to Satan, their god and his blind-followers with the next return of JESUS, the Great Winner who defeated him to Golgotha. No matter what some believe it or not, He’s coming back soon. It s just a matter of time.

  • Shawnie5

    Greg’s comments are not entirely inconsistent with mine, because what you mean by establishment is not what the founders meant by it. It meant official religion, financially supported and its observance mandated by the government. They never intended for religion to be totally silenced in the public square. They WANTED for the populace’s virtue and morality, engendered by pure and voluntary faith, to come out in the laws and policies its representatives enacted, while still protecting everyone’s rights to worship or not worship as they pleased.

    I’m sorry, Larry, but there is no way for you to get your head around any of this without some familiarity with the founders’ actual writings. There are no shortcuts–you need to leave the blogs and propaganda mills alone and actually get into the Federalist Papers and the complete works of Franklin, Adams, etc.

  • Fran

    I am not panicking at all because I know what marvelous future lies ahead. I am a theocratic Christian and do not belong to any political party.

  • NatAlie

    U are so blind , don’t be deceived, he is the father of lies, sincerely wake up,

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  • These ‘Daeva Worshipper’s’ at the Church of Ahriman are devil worshippers indeed. However, they do not follow the Christian concept of Satan. They follow the original conception of the devil, which is found in a more ancient religion known as Zoroastrianism aka Mazdayasna. In Zoroastrianism, God is known as Ahura Mazda Aka Hormuz and the Devil is known as Angra Mainyu Aka Ahriman. The church of Ahriman is well aware that Christianity is a bastardization of the more ancient Zoroastrian religion.
    Judaism is the mother of Christianity, but what few people realize is that the Zoroastrian religion planted the seed for Christianity’s birth into the womb of Judaism, and then retreated to let the new crypto-Mithraic creed develop on its own.

  • What!

    you mean like childen, right? Oh you are a christian, well I am satanist. The athiest play the same game on christians more than other religion in the world.

  • danal

    OMG you all need to learn about what you are talking about… does anyone actually know what Satanism is?

    WITHOUT what your “religion” has told you… hmmm I doubt you even thought of doing that before bashing with all your bible talk and phases.