• Greg1

    It is interesting that Ireland is falling, as well, where one of the nine Church approved apparitions took place. And. these apparitions are all oriented towards trouble on the horizon, pointing to a time of trial ahead. What I find interesting that Sister Lucia, one of the Fatima Portugal visionaries, who just recently died after having lived into her 90’s, told her fellow sisters that Our Lady appeared to her several more times since the 1917 apparition, and communicated clarifications of the things shown to her when she was just a little girl. And what I find interesting is that Mary told Lucia, that when an individual sins, they will be judged individually, but when a country sins by enacting laws that permit abortion, divorce, and gay marriage, the whole country will suffer the consequences. And wow, all these places Our Lady appeared are all heading down the same road paved by immoral lawmakers.

  • bqrq

    My family will never travel to any nation that embraces and promotes sexual immorality. This threatens children and creates a hostile society.

  • Larry

    There is a bit of a bothersome detail here. Although Ireland would be the first country to grant marriage equality by popular vote referendum, many nations approved it through legislation already. Netherlands being the first to do so in 2001. Technically wouldn’t legislation be based on the voter’s will?

  • Candy Man

    Wow. I’m not sure what part of the planet you live on, but I think I want to avoid visiting there…….

  • Woo Spotters

    Greg1, woo, your post has been cited as having too high a Woo Factor due to its high woowoo claims about apparitions and its illogic.

    Oh those “immoral”lawmakers, and your lovely “god” that would blame all for the actions of some.

    You, ma’am, are a fool. Woo to you!

  • Woo Spotters

    bqrq obviously needs some embracing.

    Really intimate embracing, that is. Yes, that kind.

    Woo to you, bqrq.

  • Doc Anthony

    In America, there’s only one answer to your question. It’s a big “No.”

    The Gay Gestapo doesn’t want voters making THEIR OWN democratic decisions, pro-or-con, one-person-one-vote, regarding gay marriage. Voters using their right to vote, scare the Gay Activists totally.

    That’s why the gay activists rely on the courts to IMPOSE their agenda on American voters.

  • JR

    Sad, isn’t it Greg, that such a Catholic country as Ireland should embrace such an immoral idea as gay marriage? Blaming this turnaround on the clerical sexual abuse is an absurd scapegoat to anyone truly Catholic. Do the Irish believe that sanctifying a grave sin is a proper response to the sex scandal? Is this somehow a righteous response to sin by embracing another? Do they believe that the Church will rethink their position on gay marriage? Those who vote for this insult God, and their beloved St. Patrick. God forgive them.

  • Larry

    So that would be a no. 🙂

    Doc, you have a problem understanding the difference between expansion of liberties and discriminatory legislation. Please refer to the 14th Amendment
    and the concept of “equal protection under the law” for further details.

    So the only reason Ireland’s take on marriage equality is different from the other nations in Europe adopting it is the method employed. Referendum as opposed to legislation.

  • Ireland’s irenic “Aye” instantly increases the ire of the inquisitors.

    As Bart Simpson would say, “¡Eire, caramba!”

  • Cranmer

    @Doc Anthony, “Gestapo?” I hope you remember your history books and that many, many gay and lesbian people were taken by the actual, historic Nazi Gestapo to their death in the concentration camps of the Third Reich (wherein they wore the pink triangle.) To turn around and use it to name today’s GLBTQ activists is pretty gross and insulting.

  • Cranmer

    I assume you might live in the United States — if so, I’m surprised by your comment, because I find the excessive rape culture and patriarchy in this country to be single greatest promoter of sexual violence of women and children. Remembers, the United States is also a major destination for women and girls sold into sexual slavery. So, are you going to move?

  • Who would conceive of that as an ‘opportunity’?

    It’s a remarkably persistent pattern. People with a well-developed and conscientiously maintained local culture (think Quebec, prior to 1960) seem to spawn an elite who fancy they should all behave like decadent Bourbons (or perhaps Scandinavians). A generation ago, Garrett FitzGerald assured the country (while campaigning for a referendum on gutting the country’s matrimonial law) “we are not Swedes; we are not Danes”. That was in 1986. Now Dr. FitzGerald’s successor fancies they have the ‘opportunity’ to be the Castro district or the West Village.

  • Larry

    Its most likely BECAUSE Ireland identified so closely with the Catholic Church in the past. In the wake of numerous instances of widespread and systematic immorality by the church, people are fed up with them.

    Decades (centuries) of being spoon-fed arbitrary and capricious cause for making their lives miserable by the Church. Not just the child abuse scandals, but also the human trafficking, slave labor, human experimentation, and most recently undermining medical standards.

    http://www.voanews.com/content/irelands-magdalenes-seek-amends-for-years-of-forced-labor/1600172.html

    http://www.reformtalk.net/2013/09/02/irish-forced-adoption-film-philomena/

    http://www.salon.com/2014/06/09/THE_CATHOLIC_IRISH_BABIES_SCANDAL_IT_GETS_MUCH_WORSE/

    As Ireland becomes a more diverse nation, there is less tolerance for sectarian (and frankly discriminatory) behavior caused when the church and state got together.

  • Larry

    Its called progress. Appealing to an entire voting base which used to risk prison for being themselves in public.

    Much like how many American politicians realized that by the late 60’s being a proponent of segregation wasn’t going to help re-election anymore. Strom Thurmond being one of the most venerable examples. A man who went over the course of 50 years from being a staunch segregationist to eulogized by a black state senator.

  • micdb

    So you will never visit the Vatican? Plenty of real, actual genuine immorality going on there in the form of child rape.

  • Ben in Oakland

    Doc doesn’t really care about that. He is all anti-gay all the time. He uses the term Gaystapo without the slightest notion of irony. He is happy to Cite Corinthians 6 and completely forget what it says about slandering and reviling. That’s because, in his mind, spreading evil about gay people who have not harmed him or indeed any one else is just his free exercise of religion.

  • Doc Anthony

    The 14th amendment doesn’t require a state to change its legal definition of marriage. Literally **nobody** has ever shown otherwise…..and that’s why the US Sixth Circuit Court refused to give the Supremes a free pass on their gay-marraige mess.

  • You ‘find’ nothing outside the poisonous little space between your ears.

  • [citation needed]

  • Its called progress.

    A term worth a chuckle for a few generations now.

  • Doc Anthony

    I understand your post, but let’s just tell the truth about things.

    When you brazenly single out small business owners, hard-working fair-minded families of a particular religion…

    and then you do the economic equivalent of a **Kristallnacht** on them, with NO mercy, for merely refusing to participate overtly or tacitly in ceremonies that affirm/celebrate YOUR favorite religion (which is openly opposed to their religion)…
    .
    then such tactics necessarily makes you into the new GESTAPO. Not a penny less. Let’s just tell the truth.

    I’m not talking about you personally. Nor am I even trying to insult or revile anybod Supporting gay marriage is very bad, but that’s NOT what makes a person a Gestapo.

    It’s those brazen, vicious, merciless **Economic Kristallnacht** tactics, designed to totally smash your business, kill your Chritian family’s livelihood and wipe out your daily bread, unless you bow to the new Baal. THAT, sir, is pure Gestapo.

  • JR

    Again, even a referendum from the population that votes to recognize gay marriage does not moralize this “addendum” to the married state. It exposes, not the progress of a cultured people, but a desire to return to a state of mind that rejects sexual limitations. Pornography, prostitution, adultery, sodomy, fornication, they all are now legal individual choices. And what good springs from these former sins? Oh, maybe none!
    We see people reveling in this idea of “freedom” initially, but not too far off you will see people suffering from their participation. Unwanted pregnancies, STD’s, broken marriages/abandoned children, people performing sexual acts for others to view at their leisure…….possibly instilling the idea of rape in some, multiple marriages, gays imitating married men and women….using others to perform the sex act to give them children. And so on. Think of all the new social agencies we will need to create to “help” these people! Sad world.

  • Larry

    LMAO. When small business owners engage in behavior which not only violate state anti-discrimination laws but was just malicious and uncivil from the outset, they deserve whatever befalls them.

    Much like the people who would have denied you goods and services on the basis of your race. Bad behavior lacking any legitimate good faith justification. There is no such thing as a well intentioned discriminator when it comes to open commerce.

    Why are Christians like yourself so much against bearing responsibility for your actions? Such hypocrisy and mendacity would be surprising if it were not so typical.

    Doc, people who advocate legalized discrimination don’t get to go all Godwin and expect to be taken seriously. 🙂

  • Larry

    In about a generation or two conservative Christians will be trying to appropriate marriage equality the same way they try with the civil rights movement. All the while sweeping under the rug, their long history of being one of the main obstacles to such things.

    We saw this behavior already. The religious right began its life as the remainders of PO’ed segregationists. Now they pretend that their take on Christianity was the force behind MLK.

  • Larry

    It has before. It can again. Loving v. Virginia (1960)

    The “legal definition of marriage” in those states is in effect a ban on marriage equality, so the 14th Amendment must apply. Bans to actions which are permissive in nature such as marriage rights, require the state to provide rational and secular interests to justify them.

    The US 6th Circuit did everything a bad court decision requires:
    -Citation to obsolete law
    -Avoidance of discussion of material issues and arguments
    -Acceptance of arguments verbatim without commentary or analysis

    The great thing about their decision is that it speeds up marriage equality. Instead of by state or circuit, SCOTUS will grant it for the entire nation.

    If you haven’t noticed all the attempts to use the law to prevent gay marriage actually hastened its acceptance. Had you guys not been such spiteful bigots and relied on voter apathy, it would be years from now, not weeks before gay marriage is the law of the nation.

    neener,…

  • Julian Penrod

    As with so many scams, the power of the movement to approve of homosexuality relies on lies and the withholding of truth. Kenny “defines” homosexuality solely in terms of whom someone chooses to “love” and “honor”.
    In fact, there is a great deal more to the subject of homosexuality, and the craven “news”, “government”, “science’ and, frankly, even “religious institutions” refuse to mention it!
    Homosexuality isn’t about love, it’s about sex. That is a lie by Kenny and homosexuality defenders.
    And homosexuality is not an innocuous “legitimate alternate way of living”.

  • Julian Penrod

    Among other things, homosexuals have quietly campaigned to decriminalize the act of knowingly therefore willingly, therefore maliciously, transmitting HIV/AIDS to others! The “news” will never mention this. They have managed so far to have it downgraded to a misdemeanor, punishable only by a fine! And they did that in the late Eighties, when AIDS was still considered a death sentence, so infecting someone maliciously was tantamount to murder! This demonstrates the hammer lock homosexuals exert over “government”! The “news’ won’t mention that, either! Willingly infecting someone is an act of depraved indifference to human life, and that is a defining quality of homicidal sociopathy.
    All homosexuals are homicidal sociopaths. And sociopaths do not have the right to demand that society change to accommodate their whims.

  • Julian Penrod

    And there is the constant issue of obsessive, mindless promiscuity and compulsive infidelity, also universal among homosexuals, at levels unseen among heterosexuals. Homosexuals must regularly, if not also frequently, engage in massively multiple orgiastic sessions of anonymous sex. Establishments that cater to their trade provide separate areas where this can be carried out. And it’s not even the pleasure that drives them! They get no pleasure from that at all! They do it simply for the obsessive need to know they engaged in as many such contacts as possible in as short a time as possible. But, obviously this is inconsistent with ideas of fidelity. But it is established that permission to engage in such massive infidelity is the “glue” that keeps homosexual couples together.

  • Julian Penrod

    But that puts the lie to homosexual “marriage”. Homosexuals do not intend to honor any of the established facets of marriage to even the slightest degree! It’s a joke to them! Both members of a homosexual couple will engage in orgiastic sex the night they’re “married”! They want marriage only to cash in on the 1100 or so taxpayer funded financial benefits that “government” made sure homosexuals knew about, but which they kept from heterosexuals!
    And, note, this alone could have been used to argue against homosexual “marriage”, but the Catholic Church only prated the Defense Of Marriage Act! The depraved, debauched animal that the Catholic Church has become deformed into wants homosexuality to become universal!

  • Larry

    Don’t bother feeding hit-and-run troll Julian Penrod. He always just makes these block posts with the same nonsense demonizing gays and whomever else off the top of his head.

    Not worth the effort of addressing. He won’t respond anyway.

  • ben in oakland

    Sounds like you’re upset that you weren’t invited to the party.

  • ben in oakland

    And your little cath0olic dog, too? Say it ain’t so!

  • ben in oakland

    Oh! Paranoia! Don’t worry, Julian. Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean we’re not out to getya.

    “And sociopaths do not have the right to demand that society change to accommodate their whims.” and yet, here you are!

  • ben in oakland

    You should mention it. All of it. maybe include a few citations. Or a few hundred. Type with one hand if you need to!

  • Candy Man

    Doc,

    Really you went to Kristallnacht? Amazing.

    That withstanding as someone who owns and runs a small business I am not allowed to pick and choose who I can serve (it’s the law). If these small business owners aren’t happy with the laws of our country they have choices. However one of those choices is not discrimination. I have made products for gay weddings and I’m damn proud of the work I did for those couples. If that makes you or anyone else in this country unhappy too damn bad. I’m truly tired of those people who want to stick their noses where they do not belong.

  • JR

    Julian, I agree with most of your observations on the gay culture, but disagree on your allegation that the Catholic Church would ever consider such a thing as a gay marriage, it’s consistent reply towards homosexuals is “love the sinner, hate the sin”. This response is universal to all sinners, not just homosexuals, since the Church recognizes all humanity as frail children of God. The Church has no authority to establish new interpretations of obvious sin….it is bound to the Word of God as its protector from heresy.

  • Greg1

    Same old conflated comments by Larry, attempting to discredit the Church by pointing out some personal sins of its members. But just so you know, the only thing protected within the Church is her doctrine (Matt 16:17-19). The personal lives of her pastors or her members might cause occasional scandal, but the Church’s doctrine has been given to us by the Trinity, and is protected by Christ, who has given the pope the keys to the kingdom of heaven, with the power of binding a loosing doctrine, and other ecclesiastical decisions. Additionally, there is no such thing as marriage equality. Marriage is simply marriage. It is a union between a man and a woman for the continuance of the human race, the protection of a healthy society, and the salvation souls. Man can attempt to re-write the Book of Life, but he does so to his own destruction.

  • Greg1

    Doc the applicable 14th Amendment text is as follows: “No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.” What this means is that all persons have the right to enjoy the privileges of the laws on the books. It does NOT state a re-write of any of the laws on the books. Any rational legal scholar would see this clearly. The intent here was to clarify that people were not to be stripped of normal traditional rights because of race, or other; it did not mean a re-interpretation of the laws or rights on the books. So when the definition of marriage is being re-defined and twisted into something it is not, well that is not supported by the 14 Amendment. Rational people clearly understand that it is only the text, and precedent that matter.

  • ronald

    The Irish do not have a right to vote on their own laws. Commenters at RNS have the final say-so.

  • The Great God Pan

    Yes, yes, Julian. We know. But what we really want to hear about is the connection between homosexuals, chemtrails and the international conspiracy of Jewish bankers.

    Enlighten us, Julian!

  • The Great God Pan

    You never exactly struck me as the world-traveler type, anyway.

  • Larry

    Conflated arguments? Try documented scandals going on for decades and well known in the nation. Systematic bad acts done at a well placed organizational level for generations.

    The Catholic Church’s relationship with the Irish Government left a trail of destruction in its wake. The well worn result whenever church and state are entangled.

    Come back to me when you want to have an honest discussion on facts. You are far too involved with empty declarations of your faith to say anything of relevance here.

  • Larry

    ” It does NOT state a re-write of any of the laws on the books.”

    That is completely untrue. You have no basis for such a statement. Laws get stricken down when they deny rights to people for reasons which cannot be justified.

    We have about a century of precedent where the 14th Amendment equal protection clause has been applied to issues concerning marriage. We have plenty of examples of laws being rewritten, shot down or adjusted to reach a more equitable situation.

    Most importantly although I can cite to the plaintiffs in the Gay marriage case before SCOTUS as relying on the Equal Protection Clause. The defendants, those supporting the bans are not bothering with an argument as ignorant as yours or Doc’s. Nobody with any kind of legal expertise is claiming the 14th Amendment could not apply here.

    Rational people wouldn’t use the fact free junk you are trying to sling here,

  • Doc Anthony

    The “laws of our country”, as you put it, ALSO include the constitutional freedom of religion. This is part of the Bill of Rights and it is NOT repealed when you decide to start a small business.

    If your core religious beliefs allow you to make products intended to affirm and celebrate gay marriage, so be it. You have the constitutional religious freedom to act accordingly.

    But OTHER small businessmen and women, may believe differently from you. They may serve gays and straights alike, they may even employ gays and straights with fairness, BUT their core religious beliefs don’t allow them to PARTICIPATE, either tacitly or overtly, in gay ceremonies that clearly OPPOSE and deny their own Christian beliefs.

    So Christians are merely ask ing for the the SAME constitutional right that you enjoy — freedom of religion. The right to NOT be forced to participate, either tacitly or overtly, in alien ceremonies that clearly oppose God Himself.

  • Michael Paterson-Seymour

    In the year ending April 2014net inward migration among non-Irish nationals grew for the second year in a row, from 2,100 to 7,900

  • Larry

    So you don’t mind if I sacrifice your family to the the dark lord Cthulhu. After all, freedom of religion according to you means I can treat others as badly as I want. Even harm them.

    Freedom of religion also is not freedom from responsibility for ones actions. Why are you painting Christians as being so irresponsible?

  • Cranmer

    @Art Deco, a little ad hominem attack? You defend a culture and system of terror, oppression, and injustice. Unfortunately, Jesus the Christ came to break these and cause those, like you, who uphold and defend them to repent and turn towards him. I hope you do — or that at least, you can begin to see how you uphold everything the Christ came to destroy.

  • Larry

    Maybe I shouldn’t mention the decades long scheme of a division of Time Warner to celebrate the homosexual and bestial relationship between a disembodied brain in a jar with a Gallic, verbose, Communist, primate.

    I wish I was making that up.

    http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Mallah_(New_Earth)

  • Greg1

    Larry there is no honest discussion with you, as you conflate, and inflate every scandal or poor judgment made by individuals within the Church. You also have an issue with “presentism.” Different times, required different approaches to things. And in the end,at the official level, the Church usually did what was best for society at large. Looking back now, some decisions might come across as having been harsh, but the intentions at the time were noble. I guess I have to ask you a question: do you believe in abortion? Is it a good? Or a “trail of destruction?”

  • Greg1

    Larry “Laws get stricken down when they deny rights to people for reasons which cannot be justified. ” Yes, laws which deny humans the fundamental rights extended in previously written law. The 14th Amendment text does not allow for redefinition of law. Redefining the meaning of “marriage” would be like redefining the meaning of “murder.”

  • Larry

    I cite to documented and in many cases decades long scandals which impacted on the Irish public. Ones which a great deal of hoopla was made in the country and you are quoting dogma and scripture.

    The public of the country is getting fed up with the entanglement of church and state. Moreso now that the demographics of the country are subtly changing away from being homogenously Catholic.

  • Larry

    “Yes, laws which deny humans the fundamental rights extended in previously written law”

    The dishonest weaselwording is “previously written law”. That is nowhere to be found in any interpretation of the equal protection clause used by the Supreme Court.

    Arguing about definitions is only half an argument. You still need to show the merits of a given law. Rational and secular purposes which require its existence. Especially when it has to do with limiting the liberties of individuals.

    Since gay marriage bans lack any rational and secular purpose, you feel the need to make phony collateral attacks on the subject rather than discuss the merits or facts.