Irish Catholicism supports same-sex marriage!

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Celtic Cross

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Celtic Cross

Celtic Cross

Celtic Cross

The stunning vote of the Irish to legalize same-sex marriage will be taken as one more indication (along with the legalization of divorce and homosexual behavior and abortion if the mother’s life is at risk, plus the decline in Mass attendance and priestly vocations) of the collapse of the Catholic Church in a country where it once bestrode the sod like a colossus. Such would appear to be the wages of a rolling sexual abuse scandal, particularly acute because of the church’s control of public education, and the ugly history of its abusive homes for wayward boys and girls.

But for all that, Ireland remains a country where over 70 percent of the population identifies as Catholic, where a higher proportion of Catholics go to Mass than in the U.S., where the divorce rate is low. And yet, every Irish political party supported the referendum and the citizenry voted in favor by a 62-38 margin. What gives?

What gives, in part, is that Catholicism, understood as a religious culture rather than as a set of official doctrines, is far more amenable to same-sex marriage than is generally thought. Unlike Protestantism, it never valorized the nuclear family as the church in miniature. Catholics have, by contrast, exercised their analogical imaginations in understanding nuns as married to Jesus and bishops to their dioceses. Priests are fathers; abbeys are governed by mother superiors; monks are brothers; nuns are sisters. In Catholicism, there have always been different kinds of holy families that love makes — and so, why not add one more? It’s no accident that Catholics in the U.S. — white, Hispanic, and otherwise — support same-sex marriage at the same rate as the Irish voted.

Beyond that, the Church in Ireland, whatever its faults, understands itself as linked to the populace in an integral, even tribal way, so that it must be where the Irish people are. That, I think, is why the Irish bishops, while opposing the referendum, did so in a way that made clear that church would not condemn a yes vote. As Bishop Donal McKeown of Derry said during a radio debate, “I don’t doubt that there are many people who are practicing churchgoers of whatever church background who will in conscience vote yes and that’s entirely up to them. I’m not going to say they’re wrong,”

In contrast to the bishops of France, who leapt to the barricades to fight same-sex marriage as if fighting the French Revolution all over again, in Ireland the bishops understood that the community mattered more than the doctrine, that they would have no part of a culture war that divided their country.

The Irish vote will resonate around the world, and perhaps even ring a bell with the two Irish Catholics on the U.S. Supreme Court, John Roberts and Anthony Kennedy, who represent the swing votes on next month’s decision to determine whether same-sex couples have a constitutional right to be married in the United States. For the vote is not just about which way the winds of public opinion are blowing. It’s also about the spirituality of marriage equality.

  • Ben in oakland

    Mr. silk, they indeed have a part in the antics of the no on marriage side. But they could tell they were going to lose, and they didn’t want to lose any more face than they needed to. All of the arguments put forward by the Iona Institute were all Catholic arguments of the usual sort.

  • Doc Anthony

    God bless the French Resistance.

    Sometimes it’s not about winning or losing, but whether you have the courage and faith to take a stand at all.

  • Fran

    Not surprised at all by this result. The church will only continue to collapse but on a much larger scale.

  • Philip

    Ireland is one of the top 10 socialist countries in the world. For those who don’t know what that word means, take the time to look it up. They are the #1 best welfare country in the world to live in. Remember, no, excuse me, I’m talking to people who don’t read or do not know who Santa Ana is; it’s not the LA freeway. Those who do not learn from their past mistakes are doomed to repeat them. The top socialist states are China and Russia. Ireland comes in around 5th or 6th place. We should all strive to meet the expectations to have a civilization like China or Russia. Simple lesson: Socialism and Religion do not mix or cohabitate or co-exist. Socialism is the government’s religion of the people. God can only offer a vague Paradise after you’re dead where a socialist government gives everyone a chicken in the pot plus all the sex, vodka & rice you can have. Socialism 1, Religion 0. Comrades, form the bread lines holding your little red book, not the Bible!

  • Larry

    This is a demonstration of what happens when churches entangle themselves with government. It always leads to abuse. The abuse always leads to backlash against the church.

    All the years of baby selling, forced labor, supporting attacks on civil liberties, and attacks on medical ethics (all done with government support) have fouled the nest for the Catholic Church.

  • Doc Anthony

    “the spirituality of marriage equality…”

    …doesn’t exist, according to the Bible.

  • Julian Penrod

    In fact, homosexuality is a mental disorder.
    Homosexuals have campaigned to decriminalize knowingly, therefore willingly, therefore deliberately, therefore malevolently transmitting HIV/AIDS to others. So far, they’ve succeeded in having it downgraded to a misdemeanor punishable by fine! That shows depraved indifference to human life and that is a defining quality of homicidal sociopathy.
    All homosexuals are homicidal sociopaths and individuals like that should not be allowed to change society to fit their whim.
    Add, too, such things as that self loathing and massive drug abuse are universal among homosexuals and exist at levels unseen among heterosexuals. Two definite signs of mental instability.

  • Julian Penrod

    And there are the related issues of obsessive, mindless promiscuity and compulsive infidelity. It is documented that homosexuals need regular, if not also frequent, engagement in massively numerous orgiastic anonymous sex sessions, not even for the pleasure, but just the satisfaction of being able to say they had so many encounters in so short a time. Obviously, this makes a mockery of even the most basic concept of fidelity. But it is also documented that permission to engage in massive infidelity is the glue that keeps all homosexuals relationships together. But that puts the lie to every claim of homosexual “marriage”! They do not intend to honor, to even the slightest degree, any of the fundamental defining aspects of marriage! Both partners will be off to multiple orgiastic anonymous sex encounters the night they’re “married”! They only want marriage to cash in on the 1100 or so taxpayer funded financial benefits of marriage!

  • Julian Penrod

    The fact is, all this would have been sufficient for the Church, or the “Church”, to oppose homosexual “marriage”, but they insisted on only prating about the Defense Of Marriage Act! A tragic fact is that the “Catholic Church” seems determined to permit, if not facilitate, homosexuality to become universal!
    All those Irish Catholic who voted for this measure, however, are excommunicated. The “Pope” cannot be trusted to act in the name of honor and decency, but it doesn’t matter, God excommunicated them. Any who partake of sacraments now will be cursed and suffer punishments from God of forms that will not be mistaken for the acts of men.

  • It is time to start admitting that the Bible is worthless nonsense
    to modern people.
    Who needs this garbage?

    “Kill homosexuals” – God (Leviticus 20:13)
    “Bring to me my enemies, and execute them in front of me” – JESUS(Luke 19:27)
    “Let them be cursed” – PAUL(1 Corinthians 16:22)

    Who needs this?
    Apparently nobody in Ireland. Thank goodness.

  • Silly

    Andrew Greeley was saying somewhat the same in his analysis of Pew surveys 20 years ago. The approval numbers weren’t as high, but the comparisons of national and religious groups in the US and Europe were surprising. And he credited the same imaging.

    Perhaps all (including bishops) might consider his “statistical social analysis” a bit. Rather than defunding it. In his estimation much of the heirachary was further towards the “dialectial ” (Protestant) side than their parishoners (analogical).

  • Silly

    A true Protestant, in unvarnished fundamentalist purity, doesn’t need or want a church. Scripture alone.

  • Silly

    Mr Silk’s column May first on neo-Jansonists, of course, saw this coming.

  • JR

    Marriage equality? Gay marriage does not have the right “ingredients” to even compete for equality. I’m continually surprised that the world is falling for this lie.The Irish have personally voted for a sin to be validated legally, and that must have some consequences to them calling themselves Catholic. Will they now rush to pressure the Church to change its Doctrine? The Church can never do that, so I envision chaos in the future between the Church and State. Culturally Catholic is not Faithfully Catholic, the Irish must be ignorant of this important difference. One cannot be partially Catholic…its all or nothing. Sad, sad day for the world.

  • bqrq

    Does winning an election make sodomy morally righteous? Only in the minds of those intent on pushing this vile and disgusting practice on other people’s children. So-called “gay marriage” does not give any goodness, love, grace and dignity to anyone? Gay marriage is a filthy lie that causes great harm to humanity.

  • Nuclear physics doesn’t exist…according to the Bible.

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  • samuel Johnston

    That may be a problem, since the Bible is a product of the Church, and not the other way round.

  • Mike80

    Irish Catholics might have voted for same-sex marriage. But Irish Catholicism, the church, the organization, opposed the ‘yes’ vote.

  • samuel Johnston

    Mr. Pinhead,
    A more compact misanthropic rant would be appreciated.

  • JD Mullane

    A lazy, dim analysis.

  • JR

    Yet God created what science has only discovered.

  • JR

    Wrong. Scripture must be interpreted in only one manner, and that authoritative teaching is only true via the Catholic Church.

  • Silly

    Which one? What’s your’s??

  • @JR,

    In one tone of voice you say science is necessary and is superior to ancient guesswork.
    In another tone of voice you say look how clever was the ancient guesswork.

    You can’t have both.

    Either admit your God is Faith-based, ancient guesswork.
    Or admit that Science is replacing ancient guesswork with knowledge.

    You can’t have it both ways!

  • Daniel Berry, NYC

    you mean the leadership, I suppose? Has it not dawned on you that the leadership is merely the smallest fraction of the church? This is an error that Roman catholics make consistently, i.e., mistaking the leadership of the church for “the church.”

  • Daniel Berry, NYC

    “All homosexuals are homicidal sociopaths and individuals like that should not be allowed to change society to fit their whim.
    Add, too, such things as that self loathing and massive drug abuse are universal among homosexuals.”

    My forty-plus years of observation as an out gay man have taught me that people driven to use this kind of rhetoric are almost invariably self-hating gay persons cowering in the closet.

  • Dixie Meyers

    God said, “No” to gays, lesbians and transvestites in a very “big way” when He destroyed the two cities of “Sodom and Gommora” with Fire & Brimstone. That Irish Bishop Donal McKeown of Derry is in the State of Mortal Sin and encouraging Mortal Sin. God can’t be wrong, and Bishop Donal McKeown of Derry right. You have lost your Moral Compass. I will pray for you and that evil Irish Bishop. I always say, “If it weren’t for bad Catholics, there would be more Catholics.” Conversely, we cannot blame a bad example of bad priests and bishops for our own stumbling. If they are bad Bishops, don’t follow them nor add to their coffers. It’s like giving money to a drunk beggar on the street. Eventually, bad Bishops die and meet their Maker and will reap eternally in hell, for the evil they have sewed, if they haven’t repented of it and spoken a retraction of their evil to their flock.

  • Larry
  • Julian is upset that his girlfriend ran off with another woman. He also goes off on his rants about homosexuality in order to divert attention to his collection of child and animal porn he keeps in conspicuous locations,*

    * All of this is an attempt to see whether Julian actually reads posts in response to his garbage

  • Ben in oakland

    I would suggest you take your own advice, and take the time to look up socialism in the dictionary, the encyclopedia, and Wikipedia. I would not look it up at FOXNews, Sarah Palin’s website, or Breitbart. Most of what you have to say is a clear contradiction of reality.

  • bqrq

    Mike80 said;
    “……..But Irish Catholicism, the church, the organization, opposed the ‘yes’ vote……”

    Good point, expect push-back from ordinary Christians and other religious people. We are not going to idly stand back and not resist aggressive homosexualists who force gay marriage on society, corrupt public morality, and put children at risk. Gay marriage = legalized child **********.

  • Eric

    You know you’ve lost when you resort to desperate, discredited stereotypes. You aren’t even pretending to make a point, or be rational You’re just consoling your side with wishful thinking.

  • Eric

    “So-called “gay marriage” does not give any goodness, love, grace and dignity to anyone? Gay marriage is a filthy lie that causes great harm to humanity.”

    All evidence to the contrary not withstanding, of course. This is just the noise of clanging cymbals.

  • Eric

    “God said, “No” to gays, lesbians and transvestites in a very “big way” when He destroyed the two cities of “Sodom and Gommora” with Fire & Brimstone.”

    You know you’ve already lost when you bring out the clobber texts as if no one has ever read or debated them before. Sorry, Gen 19 ain’t about gays or lesbians or transvestites. Nor will “God said, I believe it, and that settles it” do for an approach to scriptural discernment. Maybe try again after you’ve gotten over your personal issues and learned to avoid projecting them so much on the Bible. Give it a year or ten and get back to us.

  • Eric

    bqra, please get the help you need.

  • Bar-b-q,

    I’m not Gay.
    I’m not tormented.

    I’m challenging the unsupportable claims of tormented religionists such as yourself in the same way
    a policeman questions a drunk driver.

    Religion – like smoking and drinking – can be a public nuisance
    When its adherents insist everyone else take a toke.

    Your insistence on my participation in your delusion
    Is the problem.
    Keep your religion to the privacy of your church or home. Otherwise prove your god exists – and prove his commands are good.

    So far, what you are bringing to the table looks very uncivilized.

  • bqrq

    Eric said;
    “……please get the help you need……”

    Dear Eric,
    I know I need help. I was trying to be careful in my choice of words so that my comments would not be deleted. Hopefully this will help you understand:

    gay marriage = legalized child m*l*st*ng

  • Be Brave

    It’s not surprising to see power and money trumping the Gospel of Christ and the path of Christian life. Christianity has a long history of selling out to the political power structure of any given culture.

    As Jesus said “Will the Son of man even find faith on earth when He returns.” – Matthew 18

    Christians that do not sell out Christ for political gain, need to form groups that will show how hostile LGBT culture is to Christians that keep to the Gospel. And as the attacks on Christians increase in number and intensity, even those that have rejected Christ will have to see the hatred that the gay community has for Christians.

    “The world,” has always hated Christ and His followers. The vote in Ireland showcases how much acceptance and political “will” that hate has now.

    This attack on The Church from sellouts should come as no surprise to anyone that has actually taken the time to follow Christ and read the New Testament record.

  • Be Brave

    If history hasn’t proven to you the corrupt nature of “The Catholic Church,” and the further selling out to the culture that is happening before your very eyes, there is nothing that can help the horrors coming at Christians everywhere.

    LGBT culture is as antithetical to Christian truth as the very positions espoused by Jesus and Satan in the debate in the desert. LGBT power and drooling desires are being used to crush the life out of the Gospel. It is not being used to further anything but sexual depravity and the desires of the enemies of The Church.

    Nero was part of the LGBT community (Nero was “married” to a man) before the cunning propaganda of the 20th and 21st century tried desperately to make this kind behavior noble. And it is easy to see that the same spirit in Nero and his ilk, is driving the hatred against The Church today to the same evil course.

  • JR

    I never said either. Science is merely one means of discovering God’s creation. Science and God compliment each other. Ancient “guesswork” is such because man had not the tools to certify what they observed. Atoms, etc. always existed, long before man discovered them. Science creates nothing.

  • Be Brave

    @Silly,

    Just watching the kinds of people that are cheering on the pro-gay agenda, makes it clear that there is no Christ in their efforts. Whether or not you want to use the New Testament guidelines, which were written to combat heresy as well as form the doctrines and truth of what following Christ entails, there is no honest way to equate LGBT culture and behavior to anything to do with the Gospel and the witness of the Apostles and Disciples.

    This is simply “powers and principalities in high places,” gaining SECULAR power and authority as is always the case. The antithetical nature of gay culture and gay behaviors in terms of Christian life will one day be shown for the horrors that they are when directed AT The Church.

    It won’t take even half a generation before homosexuals take power and authority in Christian sounding organizations and buildings that look Christian in nature. But, no wolf can hide its true appearance and nature for long. Godlessness to gay power…

  • Be Brave

    @Max whatever . .

    You can pretend that science is the new god, but nothing about science has ever proven that nothing can create anything.

    Design: Trillions and trillions x more trillions.

    Atheism: 0

    Welcome to mathematics. A very important reality used by science to “prove” anything.

    But if you keep shouting long enough, you can drown out the reality of reality all around you. But it won’t do a thing to validate atheism. The numbers are immutably against that.

    But it is always fascinating to see the haters of Christians supporting the LGBT culture and community in its drive to snuff out Christian truth.

    Yup.

    From godless to gay power. That math adds up too.

  • Be Brave

    You may see them as escapees of depravity, but maybe, they are just repentant sinners turning to Christ as every other sinner has.

    But I notice with utter fascination, that LGBT culture and community will not tolerate any escapees.

    Sounds exactly like the scenario of the sociopathic Sodomites with Lot when he dared oppose LGBT culture and behavior.

    Thank you for validating the veracity of biblical history. And of course why.

    I notice the atheists here like Max also believe the biblical stories are facts. And it’s also fascinating (but of course not surprising) that atheists and gays are immutably connected.

    The math always adds up.

  • Be Brave

    Lost what?

    Same sex marriage is antithetical to Christian life. What Christian is going sellout truth for political power. So we become second class citizens in “Ireland.”

    Who cares about that.

    As Jesus made perfectly clear, we are not to follow the blind.

    Secularists will have to watch their children and society devoured by this menace. Christians will still always be doing what is right to oppose “the world and its ways.”

    Christians came from this exact malevolent environment in the Roman world. And within a few decades, the LGBT culture will yet again be shown for what it is.

    And The Church, driven out of society will once again call sinners to a better life in Christ. Catholics will have to choose whether to follow Christ or follow depravity.

    To the godless, this is a victory over Christians.

    To homosexuals this is a victory that will bring every child under gay authority. History proves that society will not survive fully intact. But those…

  • Be Brave

    Spoken like the people outside of Noah’s boat.

    Myth becoming reality yet again.

    This is exciting to watch happen right before our eyes.

    Isn’t it fascinating that LGBT’s “chose” the rainbow to force idolatry on the masses? Kind of the new swastika movement. And of course socialism is its vehicle. Watch as the populace run to embrace the gay flag in every window to prove solidarity to the state.

    Blasphemy knows no boundaries. And if anything knows no boundaries, it is LGBT culture.

  • Be Brave

    Typical Atheist . . .

    How is the Bible worthless nonsense when you and your LGBT partners are proving it is fact every single day? The little booklets that make up the Bible were written long before you were born and yet you dance to its veracity with no doubt about it.

    From the rabble of Noah’s boat making efforts to the Peter’s debauched populace mocking Christians, you prove that the Bible is utterly trustworthy reality:

    “For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry. With respect to this they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you . . . ”

    21st century biblical truth: And they call you self-loathing, homophobic, hateful, etc., etc..

    History repeating itself. And as you show time and again, real history.

  • Be Brave

    Twisted to the Atheist Max:

    Anyone that puts your biblical wit to the test shows your views as utterly valueless. Trying to show Jesus as a bad guy is laughably hapless. Even many highly academic mindless materialists won’t try to show Jesus in the whackadoodle light you use.

    You’d be better off just being a godless hater of Christians in some other garb. We really can see you for what you are. Just go with it. You now have the support of the majority to do so. Be happy in your hatred.

    While of course we laugh at your antics from our side of the computer screen. An atheist fanatically defending the gay agenda? Of course. Of course.

    Nothing as funny as a materialist trying to claim there is justice in an unguided universe. Tragically laughable but it’s better to chuckle than hate you.

  • Be Brave

    Separate the wheat from the chaff and see if there is any theology in the vote for gay power.

    The chaff is the waste. It is in the majority.

    You can’t say that Jesus didn’t warn His Church. The Church that was decidedly not what developed from Rome Italy. Nor Ireland. This was an Irish vote, not a Christian vote.

    Gay political power follows a path of godless secularism. For it can walk no other.

  • Be Brave

    Wrong Eric,

    “Clobber passages?” Let’s read it to ythis and and see the LGBT Community described in complete detail “before” it even self-described.

    “The two angels came to Sodom in the evening,”

    God did not even enter Sodom.

    ” . . . the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house . . .”

    But the pre-LGBT LGBT’s said to Lot:

    “Stand back! This fellow came to sojourn, and he has become the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them.” Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and drew near to break the door down.

    Gen 19

    Sounds like what is threatened NOW to Christians that won’t submit to LGBT culture and authority. What’s worse than being gang-raped to an LGBT? Being ruined financially?

    Myth to reality?

    Perfect history played out past and present.

    Eric, looks like the clobber passages truly are clobber passages and ruin your positions pal. In absolute fact, are…

  • Be Brave

    @bqrq

    Keep to the faith and just keep documenting and highlighting the filth that is now called a human rights campaign. These kinds of people have risen to power over and over again throughout history. Christians came out of Roman degeneracy to influence the best of society. Some secularists maintain a semblance of morality and when they are crushed again and again by the LGBT and godless hordes, they will once again call out to God.

    “Test all things and hold firmly onto truth.” Some people in the overall society maintain a godliness that won’t ever leave them. LGBT depravity can only affect those that allow it too. From the people that I talk to that seem to support “LGBT’s” don’t really. They are just voting for the idea of liberty. And liberty is something that the licentious do not believe in. LGBT power will take too much authority and will be driven back into the darkness as always. This too shall pass. Just stay on the narrow path and stay in Christ. John 1:9-10

  • Be Brave

    bqrq,

    With all due respect, “pederasty” is not pedophilia. Pederasty IS gay history but it is that adult homosexuals like their boys a little further into their teen years. Without doubt, pederasty is a firm goal in LGBT culture if history is any guide to history. Lesbians are self-labeled so via a female pederast named Sappho. Sappho was a typical LGBT in that her story shows a confused and deranged individual. She was a teacher (of course) that lusted after her female students. But what is quite weird is that Sappho is reported to have committed suicide (of course) over unrequited love of some very good looking younger guy.
    LGBT power and authority is very much directed at ruling The Church, but that is a dream that will never ever be accomplished in totality. Yeah, it will destroy those that choose that destruction, but Jesus and the writers of the NT make it clear that evil only takes hold to those that choose to be debauched. Read Jude’s account of LGBT’s in the Church.

  • @BeB,

    “they are surprised when you do not join them in the same flood of debauchery, and they malign you . . . ”

    Garbage! Nobody is telling you to join anything!

    Atheist Debauchery? That is rich!
    Only your fascist totalitarianism commands others to join in your religious debaucheries:

    molesting priests
    genital mutilation,
    suicide bombings
    superstitious scapegoating,
    child rape, murder of innocents,
    repression of women,
    subversion of freedom of speech
    subversion of the constitution
    subversion of the separation of church and state
    enforced fascist compliance of superstition
    repression of LGBT rights
    the promotion of barbaric ignorance
    Burning witches alive (still practiced!)
    War against scientific research!
    Creationist crackpots!

    You complain about drunkenness and insolence?
    Only the religious forgive such debauchery – while they a spray civilization with perverted debaucheries uncountable !!

  • Nanabedokw’Môlsem

    The commentary, at least briefly scanned, ignores the possibility that sexual attraction is rooted in DNA and is not necessarily controlled by the physical attributes of the person in question. At least in terms of unprotected anal intercourse, it seems to me only DNA could really induce the same repeatedly and with regard to thousands, if not millions, of practitioners.

    If one wanted to put a truly protective aura around the topic, one might speculate that homosexuality and lesbianism are God’s response to the risk of overpopulation of the planet.

    It is well to remember that the Bible was not dictated to a stenographer by God, but is rather the writings of ancient people motivated by their traditional faith. And that traditional faith and the knowledge of ancient peoples did not include knowledge of DNA. Even if God were endeavoring to teach genetics to people, their instincts and knowledge did not include the necessary leap to the brain and what made it like it was.

  • @BB,

    “Nothing as funny as a materialist trying to claim there is justice in an unguided universe.”

    You are a materialist PRETENDING to be made of something more than just material.

    I at least admit we have no knowledge of anything more.
    And if you claim to know that a God exists you dam well ought to show your evidence – because the price society pays for your empty faith claims is INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM, suicide bombing, Al Queda, ISIS, Burqas for every woman and fascist Christians shutting down the Constitution!

    If God wants it this way – prove it!
    Otherwise your God and all the talk you spew about it – deserves to be junked.

    You have your right to your religion – just like you have a right to other debaucheries like Boozy weekends, gambling, astrology, palm reading and cigarettes.

    But don’t you dare tell me I have to respect it.

  • “the Bible…is rather the writings of ancient people motivated by their traditional faith.”

    ‘Faith’ is just superstition and gullibility.

    You are correct that ancient people were ignorant. Their attempt to fossilize their philosophies by calling them “sacred” is exactly the sort of nonsense society must abandon.

    “Kill homosexuals” – God (Leviticus 20:13)

    It is depraved barbarism.

  • @BB,

    “Kind of the new swastika movement…”

    Alarmist nonsense.
    You failed Godwin’s rule and now you need to be put out to pasture.

  • @JR,

    “Science creates nothing.”

    SCIENCE CREATES KNOWLEDGE!

    Before science we had priests who killed witches to stop plagues – it didn’t work! Today we have science to stop plagues.

    RELIGION CREATES IGNORANCE.

  • BB,

    “You can pretend that science is the new god…”

    Why your barbaric, infantile fixation on “gods” !?
    I see no gods. And I don’t have a clue how science – the simple act of quantifying observations – BECOMES A GOD! (whatever that is!)

    When someone stops believing in Leprechauns that doesn’t mean something else turns into a leprechaun !

    Religion is like a boozy weekend full of gambling, astrology and lady luck. It is a reckless indulgence and an abdication of responsible thinking.

    I’m not giving you a pass. Start thinking instead of spewing your hatred at non-believers.

  • Nanabedokw’Môlsem

    Max, I have “faith” that the sun will rise tomorrow, a trifle north of east … and that’s not superstition and gullibility.

    At the time of Leviticus the Hebrews were not exactly in a healthy national status, but were tribes among others, and encouraging birth was good public policy.

    Given that God is not a waster of time, and can by means of a Big Bang set into motion all that will become ‘today’, and need not waste time deciding that I will have white hair at a senior age, or need eyeglasses of a given prescription, but rather has programmed the entire scenario including wild cards like the human race ….

    Now I cannot prove that version of history to be true, not can you prove it untrue, I have faith there is a God, you have faith there is no god.

  • @BB,

    “I notice the atheists here like Max also believe the biblical stories are facts.”

    What an astounding comment.
    Did you miss the part where I’m an ATHEIST?

    The stories of the Bible are obviously just legends – superstitions and outright lies.
    I have no clue why anyone believes them but pointing out the absurdities and stupidities in these ridiculous, dangerous tales is a matter of public responsibility.

    Like someone who tells children to drink poison – these horrible stories are a public nuisance and constant threat to civilization.

    “My name will protect…when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all..” – JESUS (Mark 16:18)

    Depraved, dangerous, deadly, superstitious nonsense.

    I quote not because I think it true – but to warn and call attention to vulgarity, ignorance and inhumanity!

  • @Nanabedokw Moslem,

    “I have “faith” that the sun will rise tomorrow, a trifle north of east … and that’s not superstition and gullibility.”

    NO.
    You have no such “faith” in the sun.

    What you have is knowledge and confidence based on past performance and knowledge based on expectations.
    That is not faith.

    Faith is something for which there is no knowledge and no past performance. It is a claim that something is true DESPITE the lack of evidence and evidence to the contrary.

    Faith is the claim that an invisible bridge exists out of your 9th floor window – the claim that all you need to do is step out your window and it will be there to save you. Ridiculous nonsense.

    Faith is superstition and gullibility.
    Confidence in past performance is evidence-based knowledge and expectations.

    Your claim about the sun is not faith.

  • Ben in Oakland

    No one wants your comments deleted. On the contrary, I want you to post them and post them and post them. It is this way that people will see the dark big tree that is in your heart. You do so much to do our job for us.

  • Silly

    What started as a thoughtful reflection on why the vote on the issue could vary so much from the direction given by the bishops has now been reduced to an unreadable partisan babble.

    Where this leading us is toward surveys that no longer find a group of “I’m spiritual but not religious”. To groups that respond something like “I’d like to believe there is a god, but am not sure why?” “Maybe Manacheis had something.”

  • Catholics proclaim that God Is The Author of Love, Life, and Marriage. What we are witnessing in Ireland is a Great Apostasy.

  • Ben in oakland

    I love you and be brave both so much!!! One of you is a dyed in the wool papist, and the other is an anti-papist and an enemy of the scarlet whore of Babylon. It’s as if Martin Luther never existed.

    What’s really hilarious is that the one thing you two can agree on is that you both hate the gays more than you hate each other. From my point of view, all that does is show the moral and spiritual bankruptcy of the both of you.

    But never let it be said that I want you to stop publishing your opinions, both about gay people and about each other. Please, please, please keep publishing your diatribes. All it does is convinced reasonable, sane and compassionate people away from the two of you, and the regressive religious bigotry that you both advocate. It’s a win-win for everyone.

  • Ben in oakland

    Max, every pastor has enough cow pats in it already.

  • Ben in oakland

    Megalomania much? You were so certain that you speak for God. Perhaps you have the letter of patent that he sent to you declaring you his representative, and privy to his thoughts. Either that, or you’re just making it all up to satisfy this rather insane hatred you have for gay people. But please, don’t stop posting. Keep posting your rants, your ignorance, and your hatred. As I keep telling be brave and BQRq, Satisfy this rather insane hatred you have for gay people. keep publishing your persecution fantasies. Keep telling people that love their gay family members, friends, neighbors, and colleagues but the people they know and love – and that you certainly know nothing about — are the enemies of all that is good and holy.

    You do so much of our work for us. and for that, we thank you. You want to spend some time with the Irish press, as I have done for the past few days. There is so much anger against what the Catholic Church has done, The lies that has told.

  • N.D.

    Faith is believing even when you don’t fully understand. One may not fully understand The Laws of Nature, but one can know through Faith and reason that The Laws of Nature did not create themselves.

  • Unfortunately, there are those who desire to discriminate against our sons and daughters who have developed a same-sex sexual attraction, who do not desire that our beloved heal their wounds, and do not Love them with an all encompassing Love that desires to help them see themselves as God and those who Love them do, beloved sons and daughters, who are worthy of being treated with Dignity and respect, in private as well as in public.
    There is order in Love as there is order in truth. Every act of Love is ordered to the inherent personal and relational Dignity of the human person, who is, in essence, not an object of sexual desire/inclination, but a son, daughter, brother, sister, husband, wife, father, mother. Believe, and you will see God’s Gift of Grace and Mercy is available for every son and daughter who desires to be transformed through Salvational Love. Only The Truth of Love can set us free.

  • Ben in oakland

    We gay people have no wounds, except those inflicted on us by bigotry and poisonous religious belief, and the self hatred that both of these are intended to inculcate.

  • Churchy McWorship

    “Christians came out of Roman degeneracy to influence the best of society.” -Be Brave

    The best of society includes the Crusades, the Inquisition, countless “holy” wars, massive church corruption? Millions of deaths of women, children, and other Christians in the name of a loving God? This is what humanity does with religion. Despite your unfounded fears the LGBT community is not forming armies, torturing, or burning people at the stake to get their way. They are asking to be treated like every other (flawed) human. They are not firebombing churches or lynching those who don’t agree. Nobody is using secularism to herd people into boxcars.

    The early Christian church was persecuted relentlessly by the Romans. I would hope Christians would have evolved beyond the same barbaric tactics used against them.

  • Rev. Dr. Bob Faser

    I’m not a Catholic myself, but I’m an ecumenical staffer for an organisation whose membership includes the RC Church. I’ve spent time in Ireland for extended visits twice.
    Unlike many commentators, this writer “gets” lay Catholics and he “gets” the Irish.
    While lay Catholics expect their hierarchy to make conservative noises about sex, the average Catholic (lay or ordained) I know (in a number of countries: Australia, the US, etc.) has compassionate and pragmatic attitudes toward what consenting adults do in their bedrooms.
    As well, the average Catholic I know regards a puritanically squeamish approach to sex as a very Protestant attitude indeed.

  • @Ben in Oakland,

    “We gay people have no wounds, except those inflicted on us by bigotry and poisonous religious belief”

    Well said.

    “Kill Homosexuals” – God (Leviticus 20:13)

    Needless, murderous nonsense!

  • @N.D.

    “The Laws of Nature did not create themselves…”

    Nonsense.

    Ice ‘creates itself’ from water at 32 degrees Fahrenheit!

    Just because you don’t know science doesn’t mean “you know” it must have been created by a god!
    That is a childish answer.

    The laws of nature are not mysterious. “Laws of Nature” is a man made term for the observable properties of thousands of explainable events.

    You have no evidence these things were made by a god, or two gods or 3000 gods.
    I only say – “I don’t know.”
    Saying “I dont know” is the grownup approach to questions you cannot answer.

    The childish approach is to insist “God did it” without having a clue about what that even means!

  • Larry

    BB, Noah’s Ark never happened. Noah would be awash in so much disease infested animal crap, the entire crew and cargo would be dead by super instant cholera within a week.

    So you are saying like those on Noah’s Ark, you are full of crap. Good to know. 😉

  • And the Catholic Church shows there is no greater love shown than that of a priest and a small child.

  • +++John Tomas I of scandinavia

    It is not a strange thing that christians of all denominations nowdays understand that God have made each of us unique both bodily as well as by personality.Nowdays most seriouse christians nderstand this and do not judge according to old Hebrew culture and religiouse etics and codes.
    Pope Fransiscus himself,said about Homosexual priest,that he can not judge anyone,and no true christian should do it eighter.About the same message was given by our holy Father,HB Patriarch Bartholomew,several times the same year about the subject of homosexuality.
    The new Russian orthodox Patriarch Kirill on the other hand,is still walking in the mist of Jewish-christian theology.
    The new coptic pope as well as his precursor belongs also to the orthodox family,but is even more jewish in their sexhysterical tabuns.
    One branch of the old Antiochian Orthodox church (the part who had pagan ancestors and who broke with the jewish christians of the Holy Motherchurch) have never had any homofobia.,exists…

  • Thanks for you comment, Bob. While it is particularly gratifying to receive some confirmation for my assessment, it is enough to have someone actually comment on what I had to say — as opposed to merely providing an arena for combatants to have at each other.

  • Eric

    Lost what? Well, I was going to say you’ve lost the political battle. But after reading more of your empty, hate-filled rant, it’s clear you’ve lost your mind, too. I mean this? “History proves that society will not survive fully intact.” This is the kind delusional paranoia that passes for your Christian witness? Yeah, like I said. Lost. your. mind.

  • Susan

    BB, why did god create so many gay people and animals, and allow them to exist, if he hates them as much as you say he does?

  • Eric

    The short answer to your rant is, no. The longer answer would require an honest exposition of the text, but you have not interest in honesty, so we can skip that. I do hope you get the help you need, though.

  • Barry the Baptist

    Your “math,” much like your reasoning, is terrible.

    If one takes your entire argument at face value, you never get to actually making a proof. You merely posit assumptions, as if that were sufficient.

  • Barry the Baptist

    Why do you assume sodomy is involved? Is that what you do with your homosexual lovers?

  • ben in oakland

    “It won’t take even half a generation before homosexuals take power and authority in Christian sounding organizations and buildings that look Christian in nature.”

    Honey, you MUST unclutch those pearls. Your knuckles are positively white, and your giving yourself a case, no, a pallette, of the vapors.

    What you’re describing isn’t quite so apocalyptic as you seem to need it to be. What it simply will be is that thanks to people who speak like you do, the majority of Christians, most of whom are good people, will see this hate, fear and bigotry, disguised as religious belief, exactly for what it is. They will see your insanity on this subject as well, because they kn0ow gay people.

    You, like the anti-semites and negro haters before you, will be a small minority of Christianity, simply outvoted. You can then continue to attempt to redefine the Christian message away from the resurrection and redemption, and reduce it to “All true Christian Must Hate queers!”

    I’m all…

  • Greg1

    Susan, God doesn’t hate gay people. The Christian understanding would be that a gay person has a cross that must be battled throughout their life upon this earth. Yes some crosses are harder to carry than others, but the gay cross is very difficult in our day, as you have so many people telling you that it is not a sin to succumb to the temptations. Whereas, God has told us very clearly that it is a grave sin that must be battled if one wants to get to heaven when the lights go out (Galatians 5:16-25). So it has nothing to do with what everyone is saying, but it has everything to do with what God has told us will happen if we continue in our sin.

  • Karen

    Greg and Susan, per my earlier discussion with Greg that he ducked out of, bible god apparently hates a lot of people, gays included, and punishes many people for actions that others did.

    Christian god appears to be quite the brutal, hateful monster, according to the bible. Susan is quite right about hate by brutal Christian god, as the bible describes him. It’s truly wonderful to see Ireland moving further and further away from Christianity, and to see the evil called Catholicism weakening even more.

  • grace

    Hear hear!

  • Be Brave

    Nailed it N.D.

    But the faithful can still stay away from the debauched. It may seem a daunting task, but just keep to the narrow path and also document every wrong you ever suffer from the miscreants.

  • Be Brave

    But Mark,

    Your post is not even thinly disguised gay activism. Your last paragraph proves that while also literally tears asunder the Gospel and The Church.

    Gay pride and gay culture is as antithetical to the witness of the New testament as a whore house is to a Christian marriage as well-defined by the very witness and testimony of Christ Jesus and every other voice on the subject of marriage in the New Testament.

    You are free to cheer on the invention of a new perverted and deviant definition of marriage, but trying to portray same gender couplings as equal to what is clearly and immutably defined in the New Testament as marriage – which is only man and woman/husband and wife – is dishonesty.

    The Supreme Court couldn’t redefine life and no matter what they choose to do with homosexual couplings, it won’t change Christian truth at all.

    Hoping they side with the homosexuals defines your post as purely a gay activist piece and little else. The title testifies to…

  • Be Brave

    It is with great appreciation that I must say, you know very well “gay marriage” is about promoting gay sex and nothing to do with the holiness of a Christian marriage.

    Now, it is up to every Christian that values and cherishes the martyrs that have brought us the light of the Gospel, to see the wolf in sheep’s clothing that is gay activism.

    This isn’t about hating homosexuals, it is about loving and caring for the victims of their desires and aspirations.

    You’ve never noticed that “LGBT” community does not come to the Cross, but rather they are forcing the cross to bow to the rainbow idol. And, the world and its ways, are cheering that on.

    Why deny reality?

    “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.”

  • Be Brave

    Jesus walked in the mist of Jewish-Christian theology.

    Jesus, the same yesterday, today and forever.

    There is no indication anywhere in the New Testament or the history of The Church, that there will come a day when we submit to abomination replacing “the faith delivered only once to the saints.” Nor, is there any indication or justification, that “the truth” is up for a vote to be changed or redefined whenever some new sexual fad comes along.

    Where and when does “Queer theory” replace the Gospel?

    When does lesbianism replace Christian marriage?

    When does same gender sexual behavior NOT defile a bed when there is no such thing as same gender marriage ANYWHERE in Christian life?

    It is not hate or a phobia to stand firm on what is heresy. It is not hate to stand against enemies of The Church. Especially when they demand to rule it.

  • Be Brave

    Gay power road on the back of godless secularism. There is nothing “Christian” about LGBT demands. That the worldly culture of Ireland made its mind known is no surprise to a serious Christian.

    Like Jude points out so perfectly in his letter to besieged Christians facing a similar menace in their midst as do Christians now, it is best to always keep these kinds of people in plain view when they will not leave when they should.

    “Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.”

  • bb,

    “Especially when they demand to rule it.”

    ???

    Delusional claptrap.
    Your churches are dying because people are leaving – no LGBT group is remotely interested in “demanding to rule” your ridiculous churches.

    Your complaint is sour grapes. Religion is dying.
    It isn’t being killed.

    You sound like a drug pusher who is upset
    that all the addicts are quitting dope!

    And that is what this is: solipsistic, selfish nonsense:
    “Kill homosexuals” – God (leviticus 20:13)

    People have come to their senses
    and they don’t want these selfish illusions anymore.

    You should be happy for Ireland. Everyone else is!

  • Fran

    Churchy,

    The Crusades, the Inqusition, countless holy wars and massive church corruption,”done in the name of a loving God,” were never approved nor blessed by God, nor are man’s worldly conflicts (aka “wars”) approved by him today!

    Jesus told his disciples that “those who use a sword will perish by the sword.” He was a promoter of peace, not of war, and even instructed his followers to love their enemies and pray for those persecuting them!

    Just as in the past, which you referred to, false religion promotes politics and wars without a second thought. God cannot surely be blamed for their actions, but it will be held accountable to God, whom it has claimed to represent, for all its abominable actions in the past.

  • Be Brave

    Christian hater to the Max,

    Although I find gay activism and gay behavior the equal to atheism in its standing against The Church, have you ever noticed that LGBT’s are pretending to want to be recognized BY the Church?

    There is no real validation in atheism. There is no real gains. Now while it is easy for Christians that hold to the truth to see the evil in what is happening, I realize that you cannot.

    But of all the authority and importance in which you feel materialism possesses, the LGBT’s are trying to be recognized by The Church.
    Look at the ad running on this page. It is Matthew Vines, a fanatical gay activist that is trying lead a coup to take over and take control of Christianity. Now Vines and his ilk, can find all of the support and affirmation they desire in secularism, but it is Christian life they demand to be recognized by, and to rule over. Even if only by façade, threats and masquerade. Still though, with no Biblical or theological support.

    Do the…

  • Ben in oaland

    Matthew vines doing a coup to take over Christianity? I don’t think you meant coup, unless you meant coupcoup.

    Honey, for the sake of your children, you have to lay off The pruno.

  • Silly

    Thank you.
    It’s been at least 50 or more years since I’ve heard a sermon on divorce. And immediately after ‘Humanae Vitae” , I heard the same sermon in three different parishes in town — all given by the same assistant pastor of one of the parishes — which essentially said ,”If you’ve discussed this matter with your confessor and reflected on all of the aspects and your particular situation, don’t worry about it . Nothing has changed.I”

    Since then I’ve heard exactly one, that I can remember, And that priest got an earful about 1, relating anything, even in what he assumed was not identifying any penitent, from the confessional. That was from a couple the parish’s most dedicated younger women, neither of whom could accused of any disobedience in the matter. They were just thinking of the anguish of penitents.

    Topics for the celibate to exhort the flock on sexual matters are limited.

    er, about 49

  • BB,

    “the authority and importance in which you feel materialism possesses…”

    You are so lost.
    There is no evidence that religion is anything more than materialism! Religion is a secular enterprise – a man made idea.

    There is no evidence any divinity or super-natural state exists. How would such a thing even be determined?

    Authoritarian claims are not equal to evidence! Just because some Bishop tells you that a supernatural realm exists this does not make such a realm exist!

    You do not seem to grasp the utter hollowness of your claims.
    There is no indication – even a slight one – which demonstrates anything about religion is beyond MATERIAL.

    Your material brain is made of material blood and cells. They will die someday and nothing continues – they simply cease existing.

    Material is all you are! Unless you can PROVE otherwise – a demand you apparently cannot accomplish. BECAUSE YOU ARE ONLY MATERIAL.

  • Greg1

    Karen, I didn’t duck out on you, but went on a long weekend vacation. But Karen, if you are going to make these types of remarks against God Almighty, then you are going to lose my respect. If I told you that your father was a hateful monster, then I would equally lose your respect, and rightfully so. Again, there is an approved apparition of God the Father appearing to an Italian nun in 1932. You should read that before continuing your diatribe. It is a pdf document. The actual words of the Father begin on page 11 (see table of contents). If you read it, you might know the Father that I know a little better, and realize that you are calling our Loving God a monster:
    http://www.fatherspeaks.net/pdf/the_father_speaks_english_v-2005-02.pdf

  • Greg1

    Yes, JR, it will be very polarizing for the faithful Catholics in Ireland. It goes to show you that the Devil is gaining steam and pushing on with his Plan of Destruction. We know in the end that he will be stopped, but how much damage will be done in the meantime!

  • Greg1

    In the eyes of man, yes (you can see that here), but in the eyes of God, no. Very sad day.

  • Kirran

    Well said!

    Good for people to remember that you don’t have to be homophobic to be religious, be it Christian, Muslim, Hindu…

  • Be Brave

    @Gay Ben and Animated Dust Max,

    To M: Materials that cannot think nor do anything at all that somehow became an indignant atheist is actually far more proof of a Creator than things becoming life by hundreds of trillions of accidents over hundreds of billions of years “somehow” bumping into each other in the dark. Science as a religion, which is what atheism surely looks like, cannot show any of us that reject the nonsense of materialism (by the evidence of life itself) that anything can happen by mindless, lifeless materials interacting with each other.

    You can believe the impossible if you want to. That is your choice. But reality is important to Christians. You rage on about “right and wrong” as if a mindless universe could produce either. Which of course it cannot.

    To Gay Ben:

    Coup de etat is what the gay attack on The Church looks like. Including using government power to achieve. Vines is utterly vocal in his attacks on The Church. It is creepy.

  • Karen

    Greg, your arguments are utter failures. First, I’d already read your silly apparition story. It’s ridiculous to present that as “evidence”. That old ghost tale seems to be the best evidence you have to offer, and I reject it.

    Second, I don’t need or want your respect. It is your crazy ideas (beliefs) that are being debated here. Central to that debate is the point that you are so far utterly unable to respond to, and keep dodging. Here it is again, to bring you back to what you keep avoiding:

    Christian god is apparently quite the brutal, unfair, hateful monster, according to the bible. This is so, because, among other reasons, he repeatedly has caused many people, including innocent children, to be killed as “punishment” for the actions of others.

    Your hideous monster, your “god”, should be incarcerated if it existed. Your god of your bible does not exist.

  • @BB,

    “Materials that cannot think nor do anything at all that somehow became an indignant atheist”

    How dare you claim a “creator” without telling me how you know about the creator!

    The Tides KNOW when to change from high to low.
    Water KNOWS how turn itself into ice.
    Bathwater always KNOWS how to find the drain.
    Plants always KNOW how grow by themselves.
    Clouds KNOW how to form all by themselves.
    Atoms KNOW how to form molecules.
    Rain KNOWS how to fall down from the sky (instead of up!)

    NATURE KNOWS HOW TO DO THINGS BY ITSELF.

    The only thing that doesn’t seem to KNOW anything is YOU!

    How dare you tell other people that a creator is required to do all these things which THE MATERIAL WORLD ALWAYS does all by itself!?

    YOUR HEART KNOWS HOW TO BEAT – WITHOUT A CREATOR MONITORING IT!
    Your ignorance of science is breathtaking.

  • Greg1

    Karen, what are you going to do when you meet your God in eternity?

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