Ireland gay-marriage vote a ‘reality check’ for church (ANALYSIS)

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A couple walks hand in hand from the count centre in Dublin as Ireland holds a referendum on gay marriage May 23, 2015. REUTERS/Cathal McNaughton

A couple walks hand in hand from the count centre in Dublin as Ireland holds a referendum on gay marriage May 23, 2015. REUTERS/Cathal McNaughton

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About 85 percent of people polled in Ireland's census in 2011 identified as Catholic. The church runs more than 90 percent of Ireland's public schools.

  • Greg1

    Well this will be interesting if the Catholic Church runs most of the public schools. Because officially the Church cannot acknowledge the vote, as that would be stating that gravely sinful behavior is okay, which it just cannot do now, nor ever. So it will be interesting. Maybe there will be three Irelands when all is said and done. Ah! the Devil is having his way in this world–just crazy.

  • Doc Anthony

    “…does not extend an AUTOMATIC right for gay couples to be married in a church.”

    Wow. There’s going to be cold comfort on that one. The right may not be “automatic”, but notice that the measure IS characterizing “gay marriage” as a right.

    Which means that any Irish church that actually REFUSES a gay couple’s request to use their church facilities for their marriage, will clearly invite some government intervention on behalf of that gay couple’s “right.”

    And that church will NOT be able to rely on their fellow Catholic churches for support when trouble comes, because the majority of their fellow Catholic voters have already sold their souls to Gay Marriage!

    Such is the condition of the grand olde Eire these days. Stay tuned.

  • Larry

    “The church runs more than 90 percent of Ireland’s public schools”

    And there is your problem. Entanglement of church and state. All of this enabling the church to abuse public trust, attack civil liberties and even undermine medical ethics. Its about time they start disengaging themselves from the public power they have exerted in the past.

    With any luck the Catholic Church in Ireland will join the rest of the churches which used to be part of the apparatus of state throughout Europe and get its grubby mitts out of public subsidy.

  • Karen

    Greg, what’s really crazy is that you continue to believe in a supposedly omnipotent “god” that still despite being omnipotent can’t quickly eliminate the “Devil” you also believe in, and that you also believe that your god is good despite it being repeatedly stated in your bible that your god has numerous times killed or caused many innocent people including children to be killed as supposedly just punishment for the actions of others.

    Your “god” should be incarcerated if it existed. Clearly your god does not exist. The world is moving away from your crazy beliefs. Time you did too.

  • Ben in oakland

    People can call themselves Catholic, but they are usually stating something about their cultural identity, not the religious faith that they follow. When asked, I call myself Jewish, even though I am an atheist and do nothing in the way of following any religion. But culturally, I am a Jew.

    I have noticed repeatedly in the eight months that I have been following religion new service that people who call themselves Christian are actually stating their cultural identity as very conservative Christians, and most of the time, as conservative Protestants. People who are not very conservative usually identify themselves by their denomination.

  • pgladys

    I can’t imagine what you mean Greg. Bishops have already acknowledged the vote in what I regard as a fairly mature way. Not wanting to ignite a culture war but recognizing their differences. If only every country could follow that model.

    The Catholic church does just fine in nations where the law doesn’t mirror their beliefs. People get divorced in the US. They use birth control. The church ignores it, or people ignore the things the church teaches they don’t agree with. What this vote makes clear is that there is diversity of thought among good Catholics. So what’s the problem?

  • pgladys

    How do you reason this? What did Jewish people or atheist people or divorced people (!) do in Ireland before this vote? Was the church required to lend its property to those ceremonies? Of course not. Long as I live I will not understand the hysterical fear this raises.

  • Ben in oakland

    First, doc, Gay marriage in Ireland is a right. It’s written right there in the Constitution.

    Second, I can tell you, doc, that as with every place else in the civilized world, one gets a legal marriage from the state, not from the church. Since Ireland guarantees freedom of religion, despite having a state church, nothing will change for the churches that don’t wish to marry gay people.
    .
    Third, I can also tell you this: in our country, at least, were the government trying to force any church to perform a marriage which was not within its theology, this very gay, very atheist man would be standing right next to you – of all people – defending your right, and your church’s right, not to perform that marriage.

    And that is the difference between you and me.

  • Ben in oakland

    That’s because you don’t understand doc. Doc lives in a world where fear, bigotry,and paranoia feed all each other in the never ending phantasmagoric feast of fear and despite.

  • Greg1

    Karen, God could destroy the Devil in an instant if he wanted to, but once he creates something, he does not just arbitrarily change his mind on his creation: there are the “just” angels who will be with God for all eternity in heaven, but we also have the defiant angels who have chosen to depart from God. But no, He leaves the Devil and his demons here to tempt mankind; an example of temptation would be this Irish vote on gay marriage, or the gay lifestyle, or shacking up without being married, etc.. We are “tested” in this lifetime. And depending upon how we respond, we will be rewarded accordingly: Heaven for those who choose Almighty God, and eternal suffering & torment in hell for those who choose the antithesis of God. That is the stark reality. And there is not my god, or someone else’s god, no there is only One God, or else God wouldn’t be God. And He is your God too.

  • Greg1

    What I am saying is if the Catholic Church runs the Public Schools in Ireland, and the Country of Ireland has chosen to acknowledge gay marriage, then the Catholic Church will either have to remove themselves from the school system entirely, or the State will need to make provisions for the Church to teach Catholic Dogma. Just so you know, Catholic Dogma is the highest form of Church Teaching (it can NEVER be changed), and Gay Sex has been categorized as a gravely sinful matter by the Church, and Gay marriage is out of bounds for that very reason. You’ll see what I mean in the coming weeks.

  • Larry

    That’s all well and good. But there is no compelling reason for a church to be entangled with the apparatus of government. It only leads to abuse and discriminatory policies. The Catholic Church’s partnership with the Irish government should have ended decades ago. When it pledged to be a democratic republic. Mixing the church with the state undermined the civil liberties of the Irish people and principles of rule and law. The Catholic church should take it as a sign that the door is open. They can see themselves out.

  • Pingback: Ireland, first country in human history to institute gay-marriage by popular vote…they are on the wrong side of history | Laodicean Report()

  • Karen

    No, Greg. The evil, unfair monster of your Christian fairy tales is not my god. Really, it is not even your god, because it does not exist.

    Again, what you are unable to respond to: you believe that your god is good despite it being repeatedly stated in your bible that your god has numerous times killed or caused many innocent people including children to be killed as supposedly just punishment for the actions of others. Your god is stated as having done other vengeful, violent acts. That means your god is a hateful, unfair being.

    Your “god” should be incarcerated if it existed. The world is moving onward and away from your crazy beliefs and their awful ramifications, and here, Ireland is in some respects leading the way. Time you moved onward too.

  • Karen

    “then the Catholic Church will either have to remove themselves from the school system entirely”

    Greg, we should all hope that happens, that the evil, irrational Catholic dogma and influence is removed from the education system. That will be a wonderful step forward.

  • “Twice a day, church bells ring out resoundingly on state radio and television to remind Ireland’s devoted to recite the Angelus prayer.”

    Wow. I had no idea.
    State enforced nagging!

    Sounds like Muslim countries where the relentless call to prayer 5 times a day
    amounts to state enforced servility. It is amazing the Irish have advanced so far under the thumb of Catholic nonsense.

    May the churches finally die off – and may freedom ring instead!

  • Fran

    Larry,

    I agree with you that religion should not get involved with politics (nor wars, for that matter) at all, but remain neutral concerning both.

    Neither Jesus, his disciples, the apostles, nor the first-century Christians got involved, and true Christians should follow suit.

    Instead, Christians should promote God’s kingdom or heavenly government (Daniel 2:44), the major topic of Jesus’ ministry, as the only hope of governing for mankind on earth (Matthew 24:14).

  • Greg1

    Well Larry, without the Church Ireland would be some back water island full of pagan Druids enslaving people at will. The Church brought Ireland morality, justice, and peace. As usual, the Left wants the Church to either change into a pagan institution, or hit the road. Now that is the pinnacle of “tolerance.”

  • Greg1

    Just wait, Karen; the God Who loves you is coming soon. Better have your contingency plan ready. This is a very very serious matter.

  • Larry

    How would you know? The Church had those people all killed off or forcibly converted before the 11th century.

    So now you have Christians enslaving people at will. Like those women who were forced into slave labor at various convents. IN THE 20TH CENTURY!!
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/19/ireland-apologises-slave-labour-magdalene-laundries

    Like all apologists, you minimize horrific acts when done on behalf of your faith.

    The church’s place in the modern Irish state was an anachronism. One that undermined democratic principles and civil liberties.

    I want the church out of the Irish government. Because I appreciate civil liberties and democracy. I do not look for a theocratic state. A democratic government stands best when there is separation of church and state. Their entanglement attacks the authority and integrity of both.

  • Larry

    So now you are threatening Karen with divine wrath.

    How very passive aggressive and “Christian” of you.

  • Fran

    Karen,

    It was Satan who challenged God’s right to rule over man, as well as the rightfullness of it, when he lied to our first parents, Adam and Eve, and caused them to disobey God.

    Satan even personally challenged God when Satan told him that if you took everything away from man, he would curse God and die. Satan brought all types of ailments and dire situations to Job, but Job did not curse God and proved Satan a liar.

    That is why Satan was not immediately destroyed. That issue of God’s sovereignty is being brought to the attention of all mankind, so people can make their own choice before the end of this wicked era.

    The fact remains that Satan, his demons, and all who follow him will meet complete destruction from God; but those who choose God and his kingdom or heavenly government will receive eternal life on earth (Revelation 21:3,4) through the rule of his son, Jesus.

  • Doc Anthony

    I’m afraid there’s no “hysterical fear” here, Pgladys. Just a solid realism.

    The Irish Churches will soon have to make some serious decisions, because The New Baal is now in charge there. Irish Churches will either have to bow and kowtow before the new idol (Gay Marriage), or else pay the steep price for refusing to do so.

    You saw the last paragraph of the article, did you not? The paragraph where the Iona Institute effectively begged for mercy for “the concerns voters on the ‘No’ side have about the implications for freedom of religion and freedom of conscience.”

    You don’t write stuff like that last paragraph, unless you KNOW for certain, that you’re at the mercy of Baal. The Iona Institute certainly understands who and what has the upper hand over Irish Churches. Their religious freedom is at risk.

    They KNOW that the churches won’t be able to fight back when The New Baal comes a-calling on them for some crisp bowing and kowtowing!!

  • Greg1

    It is something we all need to be ready for. Each of us will be on this earth for only a limited amount of time. And once it is over, we will be judged, that includes you, too, Larry. And of course, there will be a time–a time full of sin and moral destitution–when our Lord will return to Judge those living as well as those who have previously died. And that time seems to be pressing upon us (Mark 13:32).

  • @Ben,

    “culturally”

    Yes. I’ve had this conversation recently with someone else who was Atheist but is ‘culturally’ Jewish.

    Similarly, I could say I am culturally Catholic. But for me, that pretends it is okay to play a Catholic without being a believer. From what I see, there are too many people like that in the world.

    I like owning my Atheism. It was hard won.
    And just by using the word “ATHEIST” I inspire some people
    who might be afraid to admit they also doubt the veracity of the self-imposed prison known as Religion.

    I don’t think calling oneself a ‘Cultural Catholic’ or ‘Cultural Jew’ has as much of a positive effect on others.

  • Larry

    Shorter Greg1, if you don’t agree with me, you’re going to HELL!!!!!!!!

    Sorry buddy, but I am not going to take lectures on morals seriously from people who:
    who lie in service of their faith
    who support discrimination
    who make excuses for slave laborers/human traffickers,
    who make excuses for documented child molesters,
    who falsely accuse others of being such, and
    who make childish threats of damnation when they lose an argument.

    If you want to see moral destitution, simply look in a mirror.

  • Greg1

    Have it your way, Larry. But we all will face Truth itself, even if we don’t believe in Truth.

  • JR

    What is the reality check that the Catholic Church needs? Whether its Ireland or Paraquay, gay marriage is now and will eternally be a most egregious sacrilege as far as Catholicism is concerned. Acceptance of gays as people is one thing, for the personal vote from Catholics to legalize gay marriage could be a case for self excommunication.
    The Church clearly sees the moral decline of the people, but will never ease its doctrine to appease them. The Irish only show their mockery of God, and not the love of their fellow man. Gay marriage is an illusion, not a reality. And they risk their souls for this? No wonder my ancestors left the island. Erin Go Gutter?

  • JR

    The devil continues to exist because our (your) Free Will still chooses him.

  • @Larry,

    “people who: who lie in service of their faith”

    You might enjoy knowing where Christians get it from:

    Jesus commands lying
    “Blessed are those who have not seen but believe” – JESUS
    This means, merely believing makes it true. It is a command to surrender to self-deception.

    “who support discrimination”
    Jesus called people ‘Swine’ and ‘Dogs’ – Christians are commanded to follow Jesus’ “Morality”.

    “who make excuses for slave laborers/human traffickers”
    Jesus, Paul and Peter command slaves to surrender to their masters, “even the perverse”
    Thus it is ‘wrong’ to be against slavery.

    “who make excuses for documented child molesters”
    Jesus commands forgiveness of serial criminals.
    The single most immoral practice in Christianity.

    “who falsely accuse others…who make childish threats of damnation”
    Jesus childishly and immorally said, “Believe or be condemned.”
    It is an assault on reason.

  • ben in oakland

    I absolutely understand and agree with your point.

    I have no problem identifying as an atheist, max. But occasionally, I will identify as a cultural jew and a religious atheist. I just wrote a piece on my recent visits to Nurnberg and Dresden, and this required me to explain how I was moved both as a cultural jew and a gay man.

  • ben in oakland

    funny how catholics and your favorite church have no problem accepting that people reject the entirety of their religious faith. Religious freedom is Hardly sacrilegious at all.

    But the gay thing– why that is just too, too much to bear.

    One more bit of evidence that this has precious little to do with sincere religious belief, and everything to do with what you so clearly demonstrate every time you make a post.

  • NormanDostal

    Greg, don’t be stupid. The devil? That’s why people are increasingly viewing your church as ridiculous

  • NormanDostal

    um, wasn’t there a flood that wiped out all of His creation? Come on-youre just making shiet up now!

  • Wally Boy

    Atheist Max,
    I just have to admit that is an powerful glimpse at a question i have been pondering for a long time. Why are so many Christians so judgmental ?Though I don’t agree with you all the time I think you give people a lot to think about if they dare to think for themselves at all.

  • JR

    Your concerns are well placed, Greg. Gay marriage cannot be taught, except as sacrilege, in a Catholic run school. I hope the voting people who fell for gay lies have considered how this dilemma will be settled.
    This restriction of anti-gay marriage speak will eventually affect America as well when gay marriage is denounced in Catholic/Religious schools, but worshipped in the public schools. It will fall into the legal but immoral class with contraception, divorce, and abortion. But seeing how vicious the gay market is, I predict a direct campaign against “uncooperative” religions.

  • Greg1

    Don’t believe me, believe this guy, who experienced hell:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT2YlZORFFI

  • JR

    Benny, amazing aren’t we Catholics? You, as usual, mistate/misunderstand the dilemma Ireland has caused itself.
    No practicing Catholic could cast a yes vote for gay marriage and claim they had a well formed conscious. Sin or virtue is not something Catholics can vote on and sway the Church to listen. The Church teaches only the truth that it is the authorized guardian of.
    It is surmised that the voting majority in Ireland considers themselves Catholic, so now it must be surmised that they are mocking the moral law of God for a secular innovation that is clearly sacriligeous to Catholicism.
    This has everything to do with sincere religious belief. The uniqueness of the idea of married gays will be impossible to separate from religious overtones…..since it has added itself to the word “marriage”. If one is seriously faithful to, say, the Catholic Church, he/she cannot choose a legality over a moral imperative. It is not a hate issue, or a civil/equal rights issue at all.

  • Karen

    So, Greg, you don’t actually have a sincere faith in god. You are just taking Pascal’s Wager. (You should Google that.) You’ve just fallen into a “very very” common and completely broken argument for your sky monster “god”.

  • Larry

    “Don’t believe me, believe this guy, who experienced hell:”

    Greg1, the only people who experienced hell around here are those trying to take your postings seriously. A youtube video only constitutes proof that cats are a very popular subject on the internet.

  • Ben,

    I do understand. It can be emotional.
    When I visited Krakow, Poland and saw where the Jewish Ghettos were,
    I was disgusted by Messianism – the idea that humans must surrender to a supposedly perfect man/god (Hitler, Jesus..whoever) who promises a final, absolute and perfect truth.

    Religion and Messianism fit too perfectly.
    I’m fine tuned to never let my guard down.

  • Greg1

    JR, I read on another website, that the young people in Ireland were mostly responsible for the outcome of the vote. The main point of the article was that they are choosing to be non-religious, or areligious, because of all the pedophilia issues/scandals in Ireland. And to a point I can understand that, but what they don’t seem to comprehend is that it was mostly the gay priests/bishops who were responsible for the scandal itself. Most all of the bishops and accused priests (at least the ones that were proven), were all men practicing the gay lifestyle, while posing as priests! Talk about being hoodwinked by the Leftists pushing the gay agenda. They are working both sides of the equation, while claiming to be the good guys. Whew! People are so gullible.

  • Karen

    Greg, you keep dodging this subject. I’m yanking you back to it:

    Again, what you are unable to respond to: you believe that your god is good despite it being repeatedly stated in your bible that your god has numerous times killed or caused many innocent people including children to be killed as supposedly just punishment for the actions of others. Your god is stated as having done other vengeful, violent acts. That means your god is a hateful, unfair being.

    Your “god” should be incarcerated if it existed.

  • Karen

    Again, Greg, what you are unable to respond to: you believe that your god is good despite it being repeatedly stated in your bible that your god has numerous times killed or caused many innocent people including children to be killed as supposedly just punishment for the actions of others. Your god is stated as having done many other vengeful, violent acts. That means your god is a hateful, unfair being.

    Your “god” should be incarcerated if it existed. The world is moving onward and away from your crazy beliefs and their awful ramifications, and here, Ireland is in some respects leading the way. Time you moved onward too.

  • JR

    I predict, too, that Pope Francis will make an official denouncement of gay marriage at the end of the Synod in the Fall. Reminds me of Paul VI’s shocking encyclical on contraception after Vatican II. Most were expecting a loosening or liberal view on the matter, when it emphatically stated the Church’s eternal truth on the matter….and encyclicals have the cachet of infallibility without it being clearly stated.

  • Greg1

    The Devil is alive and well. I would suggest you try worshiping him, and then try to break away, but I had better not, because once he has his claws into you, he won’t let go. So I will just state that he exists, and that he is the source of all this stuff. The Devil would rather you not believe in him, then he can work in the shadows unnoticed.

  • @JR,

    “The Church teaches only the truth that it is the authorized guardian of.”

    Church Forbids Christmas Trees: 200 C.E
    Church OKAYS Christmas Trees: 1790

    Church Blesses Slavery: 200 C.E.
    Church outlawed Slavery: 1965!

    Church Blesses Genocide: 200 C.E.
    Church outlawed Genocide: NEVER!

    Church Blesses Witch Burning: 200 C.E.
    Church Outlaws Witch Burning: 1360 C.E.

    Church Forbids reading of the Bible: 200 C.E.
    Church Allows reading of the Bible 1400 C.E.

    Don’t tell me about the absolute truths of the Church. It is bogus.

  • Rob Sayward

    Greg1, I just have to say, you are one sick, deluded puppy.

  • Ted

    “Free will”…huh uh. So then JR your god isn’t omniscient and omnipotent. That’s some “god” you’ve made there, one o’ them lesser ones…

    Back to philo class ya go…

  • JR

    Wow, how stupid. There were no Christmas trees in 200 AD, the Church never blessed slavery, and condemned it in the 1500’s, there is no hint of any genocidal approval on the books, witch burning was the common execution or witches( heretics), there was no such thing as the Bible as we know it today in 200 AD, the general public was illiterate, and Catholics are not permitted to interpret the Bible for themselves…… it is the job of the Church to intelligently teach what the Bible says using its vast knowledge of history, languages, author’s intent, and the times books were written in.
    You have scored a 0, again, and can now be grand wizard of the Atheists.

  • Ted

    JR, I think you are spreading some dangerous falsehoods, intentionally. A relatively light googling finds many sources that indicate that Atheist Max is correct. For example,

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm

    I’d cite more but the site filters probably won’t allow many links.

    So what are your references for claiming that Max is wrong? Either present them, or retract your comment.

  • @JR,

    God demanded slavery of believers:
    “…all the people inside will serve you as slaves.” (Deut. 20:10)
    “You shall purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you…also the children..You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance..” (Leviticus 25:44-46)

    Jesus commanded slavery be enforced:
    “The slave will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it.” – JESUS (Luke 12:47-48)

    “DON’T RUN TO FREEDOM!”
    “Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence – even those who are perverted.” (1 Peter 2:18)

    The Church obeyed Jesus for 1965 years.
    Then, in 1965 the Church finally decided that Jesus Christ had been absolutely NUTS and INSANE to command slavery!

    There is no truth in the church. It is a man made, money powered placebo dispensary.

  • Greg1

    Karen, of course God is Good (Matt 19:17). Do you believe in Tough Love? The Bible stories of God punishing man, are simply his way to get a wicked generation’s attention. For example, there are people on this website who effectively give God Almighty the Middle Finger on a daily basis. Well, if you were God, what would you do to a person like that when he/she is standing before you in Judgment. Would you say, “well done good and faithful servant (Matt 25:23), come away with me into eternal ecstasy?” Or would you say, “take this person from my sight and throw him into eternal torment” (Matt 22:1-14)? You know love is a two way street. If you give Love, you receive Love. But if all God gets from certain people is persistent hatred and bold disobedience–whether it be the ones listed in the Old Testament, or the ones who rant and rave in our own day–then one cannot complain when the Trinity returns the favor.

  • Greg1

    Karen, I Love God Almighty, the Holy Trinity, because if God did not exist, then I would not exist. And the more you get to know the Father, the more you fall deeper and deeper in love with him. God lets those who love him, know He Loves them. God is Love (1John 4:16).

  • JR,

    “so stupid…”

    Really?

    “In 1965 the Second Vatican Council declared that forced slavery was an infamy that dishonored the Creator and was a poison in society.”
    – The History of the Catholic Church, 1994, Cambridge University Press

    Well what do you know! good grief!
    Wherever will we get our morality once Jesus and his crazy church dies off ?

  • JR

    Ted, is this a Mensa site?. I do not have to offer proof to something I know is true. The Christmas tree evolved from a Druid tradition that Christians adopted for celebration of Christ’s Birthday centuries after 200 AD. Max is so obviously sure of his hateful bigotry that he will say anything. Do you really think I would waste any time on debate with him? Merry Christmas!

  • Doc Anthony

    But if it is TRUE that you would actually do that third paragraph, where are you RIGHT NOW when Christian small business owners (who refuse to participate in a gay marriage or reception either tacitly or overtly) are getting gay-bullied and economic-kristallnacht’ed by the Gay Activists?

    If you are telling the truth, why do you approve of what your fellow gay activists are openly doing to THEM??

  • Karen

    Greg, stop dodging. This is about all the killing of many innocents as punishment for the deeds of others that your god is clearly claimed by your bible to have done. Nothing you have said justifies that, nor could it.

    Look, you believe that your god is good despite it being repeatedly stated in your bible that your god has numerous times killed or caused many innocent people including children to be killed as supposedly just punishment for the actions of others. Your god is stated as having done other vengeful, violent acts. That means your god is a hateful, unfair being.

    Your “god” should be incarcerated if it existed. As for giving it the middle finger as you describe, that sounds exactly like the treatment your god should get, if it existed. Your god doesn’t exist, so stop putting out Pascal’s Wager to try to argue for it. That doesn’t fly.

  • Karen

    Greg, stop dodging and quote dumping. You’ve tried that trick before. Respond directly instead to what you have been challenged with, or I’ll yank you right back to it.

    Again, what you are unable to respond to: you believe that your god is good despite it being repeatedly stated in your bible that your god has numerous times killed or caused many innocent people including children to be killed as supposedly just punishment for the actions of others. Your god is stated as having done other vengeful, violent acts. That means your god is a hateful, unfair being.

    Your “god” should be incarcerated if it existed. Clearly it does not exist, and you putting out veiled references to what is really Pascal’s Wager to support your belief is not a valid argument.

  • Ted

    JR, since you won’t (and apparently can’t) support your arguments and claims, we will just safely conclude that they are vacuous and false, and dismiss them.

    Remember, “”That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence” ”

    Your case is thus dismissed since you provide no support for it.

  • Greg1

    Karen, if you are that concerned about innocent people being maltreated and snuffed out because of the sins of others, then what’s your stand on Abortion? I would hope you are feverishly Pro-Life, otherwise your position falls flat. God does what he does to wake up a sleeping world. But back to you, have you ever voted for an Anti-Life politician?

  • Ben in oakalnd

    @Doc, I

    ‘m not going to have a discussion with someone who claims Christian exceptionalism when it comes to obeying religious non-discrimination laws, and calls obeying the law that governs all of us a persecution, comparing that to the real persecution of kristallnacht.

    By so Doing, you are taking a cherished concept of our country–religious freedom–and dragging it through your own private cesspool of religious and anti gay bigotry in order to turn it into a weapon of religious based discrimination.

    No thank you.

    No thanks.

  • Ben in oakalnd

    At JR. Well, if you don’t have to prove something you know is true, I guess that settles that.

    Proof? Proof? I don’t have to show you no steeenkin’ proof!

  • JR,

    “hateful bigotry”

    That is simply untrue.
    If someone hates bowling that doesn’t mean they hate bowlers.

    Religion is an idea – that is all it is. It is not skin color, ethnicity or gender.

    If it is not bigoted to preach Jesus to a non-believer
    It CANNOT be bigoted to preach against Jesus to a believer.

    Ideas are discussed and criticized for what they are. Notions. Products.
    To cry ‘bigotry’ just because someone hates your idea
    Is to cry ‘foul ball’ when it is fair.

    You are just cheating.

  • JR

    Who is “we” ? Anyway, my heart breaks that I am not taken seriously by you and….who?

  • JR

    Egggggggxactly!

  • Be Brave

    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!” – Ben Franklin

    “A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” – Thomas Jefferson

    “Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.” – John Adams

    How fascinating that once the majority is obtained by the rabble activist, they then claim absolute rule, authority and power over the minority. All in the name of “social justice.”

    “A Democracy is government ruled by the majority (mob rule). A Republic recognizes the unalienable rights of individuals while Democracies are only concerned with group wants or needs for the good of the public, or in other words social justice.”

    The drooling, foaming at the mouth Christian-bashers need to heed that reality. Too.

  • BB,

    You obviously do not understand the difference between mob rule and Constitutional democracy. Thomas Jefferson tried to spell it out for you but you still do not understand.

    The Constitution exists as the armaments for the lamb! – which is why IT WAS WRITTEN AS AN ATHEIST DOCUMENT.

    Christians are the predators – Atheists and other religions are the lambs!

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