Supreme Court’s pending same-sex ruling to dominate Southern Baptist meeting

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Crowds gathered in front of the Supreme Court on April 28, 2015 as justices heard arguments about same-sex marriage. Religion News Service photo by Adelle M. Banks

Crowds gathered in front of the Supreme Court on April 28, 2015 as justices heard arguments about same-sex marriage. Religion News Service photo by Adelle M. Banks

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(RNS) “(W)e will not honor any decision by the Supreme Court which will force us to violate a clear biblical understanding of marriage as solely the union of one man and one woman,” SBC leaders said in a newspaper ad.

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  • The Great God Pan

    ““We affirm that Marriage, as existing solely between one man and one woman, precedes civil government.”

    This is more or less the same position the Southern Baptist Convention held on slavery. In fact, defending slavery as a Bible-ordained institution was the single issue that led to the founding of the SBC!

    The more things change, the more they stay the same. Yesterday’s Bible-thumping anti-abolitionist is today’s defender of “traditional” marriage. Well, at least they’re sticking to their roots. I suppose there’s something to be said for that.

  • ben in oakland

    The hair may be blond, but the roots are black.

  • ben in oakland

    “…this week’s open letter to the Supreme Court asking the justices “not to force us to choose between the state and the Laws of God.”

    As usual, you can count on the Baptists of the homo-hating types never to read their bibles, or at least make an attempt to understand them. Oh wait!!! This is about homohatred. One need not be consistent on that subject.

    Romans 13:1-2: “All of you must obey the government rulers. Everyone who rules was given the power to rule by God. And all those who rule now were given that power by God. 2 So anyone who is against the government is really against something God has commanded. Those who are against the government bring punishment on themselves.”

    The very same letter to the romans that allegedly condemns gay people! Imagine that!!!

    Who said: “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s? And render unto god that which is god’s.”

    No one important to a certain class of so-called bible-believing so-called Christians.

  • Larry

    In 40-50 years they will be apologizing for their conduct towards gays. Like when they were supporting segregation.

  • ben in oakland

    “The developments come as the SBC announced Wednesday that it continues to face declines in membership. Its LifeWay Christian Resources said Wednesday that SBC churches lost more than 200,000 members — dropping from 15.7 million members in 2013 to 15.5 million in 2014 — the largest one-year decline since 1881.”

    Look in the mirror Baptists!!!

    How many children could have been fed for the cost of your hypocritical, non- bible-believing ad.

  • Curious

    What’s all this talk about traditional marriage, anyway? I thought traditional marriage involved dowries or bride prices, at the very least, if not concubines as well.

    How come I never hear these Southern Baptists talk about how many goats they got for selling off their daughter? Or how many acres they had to give away to get someone to TAKE their daughter? Or how many concubines the husband gets to have?

    I dunno. These traditional marriages sound pretty new-fangled to me.

  • Fran

    Man’s judgments, even from their highest courts, can very often differ with God’s judgments, since His are higher than man’s and also perfect (Isaiah 55:9). If man’s judgments are against God’s commands, principles and guidelines, then a Christian should obey God as ruler rather than man (Acts 5:29).

  • Doc Anthony

    “(W)e will not honor any decision by the Supreme Court which will force us to violate a clear biblical understanding of marriage as solely the union of one man and one woman. We affirm that Marriage, as existing solely between one man and one woman, precedes civil government.”

    Now THAT is how Christians are supposed to speak up and live out their Christian beliefs. Straight biblical and straight honest.

    No more bowing and kowtowing to The New Baal.
    No more giving up and giving in to the Gay Gestapo.
    Fight on, baby, fight on !!!

  • Larry

    Then don’t have a gay wedding Doc. Your church doesn’t have to have one either (unless they decide to).

  • Ben in oakland

    So, Fran, all they have to do is not get gay married, and they will have complied with the letter of the law.

    Meanwhile, any comment on Romans 13:1-2: “All of you must obey the government rulers. Everyone who rules was given the power to rule by God. And all those who rule now were given that power by God. 2 So anyone who is against the government is really against something God has commanded. Those who are against the government bring punishment on themselves.”

    so what do we do, Fran? Follow the bible, or follow the bible?

  • Ben in oakland

    So what are they gonna do, doc? not get gay married? Oooooh, fwightening. Vewy fwightening.

    Or are the going to get armed and start the insurrection? Nope, too inconvenient.

    Or are they going to do what St Paul bade them do:

    Romans 13:1-2: “All of you must obey the government rulers. Everyone who rules was given the power to rule by God. And all those who rule now were given that power by God. 2 So anyone who is against the government is really against something God has commanded. Those who are against the government bring punishment on themselves.”

  • Ben in oakland

    And as always, we can count on the religious antigays to fulfill their own biblical maxim, they will insist that whenever the bible says something inconvenient, it must mean something else entirely.

    Romans 13:1-2: “All of you must obey the government rulers. Everyone who rules was given the power to rule by God. And all those who rule now were given that power by God. 2 So anyone who is against the government is really against something God has commanded. Those who are against the government bring punishment on themselves.”

  • BB

    Ben,

    Marriage in the Bible is immutably man and woman/husband and wife.

    There is no such thing as same gender marriage.

    So, we follow your correct position. We follow the Bible.

    Surprisingly well done.

  • BB

    Larry,

    In 40 to 50 years the Christians will more than likely be back in Catacombs.

    Driven there by “tolerant” people like you.

    If they are not martyred first.

  • Garson Abuita

    Sam T, they usually save their biggest rulings of the year for the last week of June (then go on summer vacation).

  • ben in oakland

    So you changed the subject. It’s what you usually do when you simply can’t make an intelligent response to the question posed.

  • BB

    Ben,

    marriage is 100% man and woman in the same New testament writings is Romans.

    And all of the Christians martyred by a same-sex married Nero (to Sporous) were staying the course against his same-sex marriage promoting tyranny.

    And THAT is history too.

  • Larry

    Oh you poor thing. Lamenting the troubles of being the majority religion, having a great deal of political power and the dominant culture. You are in such a tizzy because you can’t use the color of the law to mistreat other people. That must be so tough on you. It must be so difficult to handle not being able to force people to your views using public resources and power.

    Does BB want a diaper change?

  • Larry

    I don’t think Christians under Nero were too worried about his marriage. I think they were primarily concerned not being turned into matinee features in the Colosseum and human torches. Nowadays its the Christians who want to throw people to dogs and burn them alive in public settings.

  • Ben in Oakland

    Again, you’re just changing the subject to something that is a little bit more convenient for you.

    Whenever the Bible says something inconvenient, you can count on a certain class of so-called Christian to claim it says something else entirely.

    Or just to ignore the subject at hand.

  • Abe

    Probably the 29th of June.

  • Abe

    They may vote it down. If I was on the Supreme Court I would not touch a case like this with a ten foot pole.

  • Jack

    Force a critical mass of the middle-aged Southern Baptist women to watch The View and cheesy soap operas daily and within a month, more than half doubtlessly will be for gay marriage, will be weeping for joy at the mere thought of gay weddings, will have memorized all the sing-song sound bites for same-sex marriage as they do Bible verses, and will have thoroughly convinced themselves that the Bible is all for it.

  • Jack

    The Supreme Court is on track to make the same mistake on this issue as it did with abortion in 1973, when it thought it knew where the American people were heading on the issue and decided it would be really cool and clever to get there first.

    But by nationalizing what had been a state-by-state issue, SCOTUS turned the opposition into a truly national movement that has since convinced about half the country that abortion is more wrong than right. Even though most Americans think they’re for Roe because they have no idea what Roe actually says (because they think abortion was outlawed nationally before Roe), making abortion a national issue helped the pro-life forces far more than the pro-choicers.

  • Greg1

    Ben, Wisdom commands that leaders of the people be just and righteous in their laws, otherwise they have lost their position of authority over the people of God: “Give ear, you who have power over multitudes and lord it over throngs of peoples! Because authority was given you by the Lord and sovereignty by the Most High, who shall probe your works and scrutinize your counsels! Because … [you] did not keep the law, nor walk according to the will of God, Terribly and swiftly he shall come against you, because severe judgment awaits the exalted—For the lowly may be pardoned out of mercy, but the mighty shall be mightily put to the test. For the Ruler of all shows no partiality, nor does he fear greatness, Because he himself made the great as well as the small, and provides for all alike; but for those in power a rigorous scrutiny impends. To you, therefore, O princes, are my words addressed…” So as long as rulers establish just laws, then they shall be followed.

  • Greg1

    (Wisdom 6: 2-9).

  • ben in oakland

    You’re right, jack.

    It has kept the anti-abortion industry in business for more than 40 years. giving them a great deal of money, and delivering votes to the theocratically inclined among us americans.

    Somehow, though, it really hasn’t done much except to restrict abortion a bit. The anti-abortion industry has a vested interest in keeping on keeping on, because this particular cash cow can still deliver the mother’s milk of politics.

  • ben in oakland

    Thank for this. Really!

    You are citing the work of an unknown author, speaking in the person of Solomon, writing 50 years before Christ, whose authority is non-existent when it comes to the Sacred writings, as you once called it.

    That’s your authority to contradict St. Paul Himself!!!! Some unknown greek!

    Is there any reason why anyone should take any of your claims of religious and moral superiority, your unparalleled religiosity and self-righteousness, even remotely seriously?

    That’s your authority to contradict St. Paul Himself!!!! Some unknown greek!

    I’ll just have to say this again. One has to applaud the persistence of as certain class of so called Christian in believing that whenever the bible says something inconvenient, it must mean something else entirely.

    Or in your case: the persistence of a certain class of so called Christian in believing that whenever the bible says something inconvenient, just find another book to quote.

  • Greg1

    Ben, The Book of Wisdom is part of the Catholic Bible; it always has been, because it was always a part of the Septuagint.
    http://www.usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/

  • Fran

    Ben,

    In regard to Romans 13:1,2 and 5-7, no government of man could exist without God’s permission. They should be shown appropriate respect because of that fact, while God allows them to rule.

    However, as Mark 12:17 brings out: “Jesus then said: “Pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” Thus, Christians recognize they should not only “pay back” money in the form of taxes to secular governments but also fulfill the SUPERIOR obligations to God.

    That is why I had mentioned Acts 5.28,29 above. When there has been a direct conflict between the commands of human rulers and the requirements of God, true Christians imitate the example of the apostles, by putting obedience to God first (“obey God as ruler rather than men”).

    It helps to have a Bible-trained conscience to know what is right and wrong, but everyone has the free will to make their own individual choices on the matter of same-sex marriage and other issues in life.

  • Greg1

    Just to put into context the text you quoted, the Christians in the early Church would take the words of St. Paul and others about freedom in Christ so literally, that they would not want to follow any law (ex. Gal 5:1), so things had to be reigned in a bit. But never to the point where the king’s laws would be followed, even if they caused one to sin. For example, in our day, abortion! What Christian could truly follow that law, and continue to be Christian? But the Book of Wisdom, which is indeed part of Sacred Scripture, isn’t a stand alone book. There are other areas where the same idea is expressed: “If you will fear the Lord and serve him and hearken to his voice and not rebel against the commandment … if both you and the king who reigns over you will follow the Lord your God it will be well. But if you will not hearken to the voice of the Lord and rebel against the commandment of the Lord, then the hand of the Lord will be against you and your king. (1 Sm 12:12-15).

  • Larry

    Meaning SCOTUS supporting personal liberties over the objections of hysterical religious types who fail to make rational and secular arguments which can be taken seriously. Opposition is not the same as making valid legal arguments.

    Marriage Equality would have been a state by state issue if not for the impatience and maliciousness of the anti-gay crowd. They were not satisfied with basic voter apathy and possible veto power on their side. Being deathly afraid public opinion would go against them, they legislated discriminatory gay marriage bans. They brought the courts and 14th Amendment into the situation and turned it into a national situation.

    The only people to blame for the fact we are discussing gay marriage now are the bigots and the politicians who support them.

  • Nobody has to force middle aged SBC women to watch the View and cheesy soap operas daily.

  • Eric

    “Fight, on, fight on!! Yeah, Jesus, YEAH!! We fight on so we don’t have to deal with the reality of our boring, mundane American lives! So we can keep telling ourselves we’re different! We’re special! We’re CHOSEN!!

    We don’t conform to culture! We don’t make idols of nationalism, war, xenophobia, sexism, racism, or capitalism! We’re righteous AND we’re innocent!! Praise Jesus!! Hallelujah and America, Amen!!!”

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  • PETE

    Youre all missing the point. Those who have faith and wisdom from the Holy Spirit know in their heart that homosexual marriage is wrong

  • PETE

    You guys crack me up. The comments section of this website is like the Jerry Springer of religion. Youre very entertaining : )

  • Greg1

    Pete I believe we were just addressing Ben’s question. As is always the case, understanding Sacred Scripture requires a balancing act. In the ideal case, as was the framework for St. Paul’s address in Roman’s 13, then follow your governmental leaders, but as can be seen from Old Testament principles, the leaders must be “just” in their laws. And in the cases of abortion, gay marriage, and the like, then the Christian knows that these laws are at odds with both their Faith, and the Truth, given to us by the Holy Trinity, through both the Church and the Bible. And of course St. John began to see the issues at hand near the end of his life, and kept things generic: “Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous. Whoever sins belongs to the Devil, because the Devil has sinned from the beginning. No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God’s seed remains in him…” (1John 3:4-10).

  • Billysees

    Ben,

    Good to bring Romans 13:1-2 into this conversation.

    Could have also added —

    For ‘everything’ comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his own purposes…..Romans 11:36

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  • Jesus Person

    As a follower of Jesus, we are called to love our neighbors as ourselves. Perhaps people don’t agree with homosexuality, but neither did Jesus agree with adultery, yet he did not condemn the adulturess woman. The church needs to focus on Jesus rather than the bible because following the bible over Jesus leads to the type of legalism that Jesus spoke against, and the type of legalism we see with this gay marriage issue. What I see from many american Christians with the gay marriage issue is legalism that is making Christianity decline. We see a contradictory message from the church: on one hand Jesus says to judge not and to love one another, yet our judgment with gays is sharp and unloving. Love is the only way because love is not optional for a Christian. Imagine how much progress we have uld make if we kept our eyes on Jesus!

  • Jesus Person

    I hear all this talk about “Paul said this” or “the bible says that” but what about what Jesus says? What about how Jesus deals with sinners? Jesus treats sinners with love and compassion; it is his radical love and acceptance that moves a sinners hear to change – we dont see him condemning sinners although he could have taken that route. What Jesus did speak out against is legalism. He had no problem having strong words about the Pharisees who were so focused on upholding the law that they condemned and ridiculed those who did not follow it. These are the people that Jesus called fools. Yes, the bible says that marriage is a union between a man and woman, and Christians should not stray away from that teaching. However, love is not an option for a christian as I have said before. Love is a commandment, and we should always lead with love, and never with legalism. Imagine how many hearts we could change through the spirit of love!

  • Ben in oakland

    I’ve been hearing for over 40 years how much Christians love me, right before they tell me how much they hate my disease spreading, social order destroying, family endangering, child molesting, God hating, military demoralizing, i’ve been hearing for over 40 years how much Christians love me, right before they tell me how much they hate my disease spreading, social order destroying, family endangering, child molesting, marriage wrecking, civilization declining, morality opposing, God wrathing, heterosexuality confusing Ways.

    Would love like that, who needs hate?

    For the record, I have done none of these things, but merely insisted that I have the right to live my life as I see fit, treated by my government the same as all other citizens.

    I truly appreciate what you say, but it’s way too late for conservative Christians to do anything but apologize for the Harm have inflicted on our lives for 2000 years.

    But they won’t, because being moralizing busybodies is way…

  • Ben in oakland

    Sorry, but my iPad went and added a bunch of extra words right as I hit the submit button.

  • formersbc

    The Southern Baptist ship has so many holes in it. The decline will continue.

  • ben in oakland

    All it shows, Fran, is that you can use the bible to support any position you like, however you would like to do it. The debate over slavery, and later over miscegenation and segregation, is a perfect example of this. BOTH sides had the bible on their side, didn’t they?

    The passage in Paul I quoted is completely unambiguous. Yet you have managed to find a way to ignore it. Greg does as well– with a citation contradicting Paul from the Apocrypha. Try finding the book of wisdom in the KJV. Where are the protestants protesting this elevation of anonymity over the word of Paul?

    they are nowhere to be found.

    “true Christians imitate the example of the apostles, by putting obedience to God first.” Except for all of the true Christians who are divorced, who fling condemnation of others like monkey poo, who slander and revile away without a peep from the Only True Christians (TM).

    All is fair when there are gay people to attack in the name of “sincere religious belief.”

  • Greg1

    Ben, the Book of Wisdom IS Sacred Scripture. The Church has always understood it to be part of the Bible since the very beginning. But First Samuel says the same thing, you must have missed that one.Tell you what, why don’t you look up the laws of Caesar, and show me where he mandated gay marriage be recognized?

  • Shawnie5

    “But First Samuel says the same thing, you must have missed that one.” Not to mention the book of Daniel — in itself one continuous narrative of civil disobedience to immoral laws.

    “why don’t you look up the laws of Caesar, and show me where he mandated gay marriage be recognized?” Well, they did mandate Caesar-worship, in which of course the early Christians could not participate, either.

    The point of it all is, of course, that human government is a necessity in a fallen world, and we should obey it insofar as obedience does not constitute disloyalty to our higher citizenship in the Kingdom of God. This is why Jesus said to render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and unto God what belongs to God. The right to compel us to violate our faith does not belong to Caesar.

  • Shawnie5

    Creation does indeed come from God and is held together by Him, and is intended for His purposes and His glory. It doesn’t mean that everything that goes on in it is His will.

    But I’m waiting with interest for the usual suspects to jump down your throat for saying that government is intended for God’s purposes. Nobody say anything till I get back with my popcorn… 😀

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  • Ben in oakland

    Yu still don’t have an answer, so you change the subject. All youre doing is agreeing with me.

    the question is a simple one: does an anonymous greek writing 50 years before Jesus have authority over Paul?

  • Ben in oakland

    Shawnie, no one wants you to violate your faith. We can leave that to your own volition. Live your life according to whatever book you prefer.

    but when you insist that I must live it that way too, expect a fight. If you insist that you, as a Christian, don’t need to obey the laws that govern all of us, expect a very strong disagreement.

  • shawnie5

    No one wants to discriminate against you either, Ben. We just don’t want to be a party to immorality. How’s that fly with you? Probably about like your assurances fly with me.

    But one thing is for sure — the paramount liberty upon which this country was founded was freedom of religion, not nondiscrimination. Not that we shouldn’t value nondiscrimination, but freedom of religion should take precedence in all but the most pressing circumstances…and your cakes and flowers aren’t that.

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  • Mark

    Aren’t you all the same A$$ holes who said don’t free the slaves because the bible? Maybe it’s time to grow up and face an equal society.

  • JohnnyRelentless

    Marriage in the bible changes all the time. Sometimes it’s one man and one woman, sometimes it’s one man and many women, sometimes the woman is just property sold to the man, sometimes a female servant is the one to bear children for the married man.

  • craig199

    This statement demonstrates total misunderstanding of the impact of any ruling.

    “(W)e will not honor any decision by the Supreme Court which will force us to violate a clear biblical understanding of marriage as solely the union of one man and one woman,” they stated. “We affirm that Marriage, as existing solely between one man and one woman, precedes civil government.”

    Ignoring the fact that marriage over the years, including in the bible, has NOT just meant one man and one woman, it doesn’t matter what the Supreme Court rules. Even if they rule in favor of same sex marriage, it wouldn’t require anybody to do anything that violates their religious beliefs. Churches can’t be compelled to officiate over same sex marriages or to otherwise recognize them.

    The only thing the ruling might do is preclude private businesses from discriminating in providing services. Businesses CAN’T have religious beliefs, only the business owners can, so no religious rights are violated.

  • Ben in oakland

    That’s the Intention, Craig. The letter is a fundraiser, a tool for fear mongering, and an absolutely meaningless statement of opposition.

  • Rob in Roanoke

    You do understand that the Supreme Court is not going to make you get married to another fella, don’t you? No matter what they decide that the law will allow, it will not mean you have to do something that goes against your god (on a personal level.)

    Yes, there might be some issues if you are a store owner who refuses to do business with gay people; there’s a lot to argue on that count, and I tend to agree that business owners should be able to refuse business to anyone, just as I’m free to refuse to use their business if they do so.

    But getting back to the point; the Supreme Court decision won’t personally affect you in any way. If same-sex marriage is deemed legal, you won’t be harmed in the least.

  • Truth Addict

    They’re just pissed off because they can’t look down their noses and tell everyone else how to live. Gay marriage has nothing to do with them. They should mind their own f”ing business — but that is so hard for a creez-chun to do.

  • Truth Addict

    So much for “render unto Ceasar”, huh?

  • Greg Kirschmann

    From a rational perspective, it is impossible for a ss couple to equate to the three most significant aspects of marriage:
    First, the complexity of an opposite gender relationship. The complexity of the union of a man and woman in body, mind and soul is capsulized in the title, ‘Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus’. Second, the complementary union of a man and woman. It is the blend of masculinity and femininity. The wisdom of logic and intuition united. Strength and delicacy perfectly balanced. Protection and nurture combined as one. Third and most significant, the blend of a father and mother combined in a child. How disgraceful and demeaning to the role of a mother and father, the very birthplace of every single other relationship that exists!

    From a social science perspective, at its most basic essence marriage is a pan-cultural constraint on evolutionary mating behavior. Ss couples are a failure of mating behavior making ss marriage an oxymoron.

    From a…

  • Beadknitter

    If gay marriage is legalized, churches will NOT be forced to perform these weddings. Churches aren’t required to marry anyone now-gay or straight. I don’t understand why they think they’ll have to.

  • Vicar Dave

    Marriage exists outside of the Christian Church and was present before Christianity. The civil court is going to affirm the rights of same gendered people to legally marry.
    Churches do not have to bless a civil marriage. Churches and other religious groups have to come to terms that they do not control marriage nor do they control access to God and God’s love.
    It is time they get over themselves.
    I am a practicing Christian and clergyman but hopefully have a broader perspective on the role of church and Spiritual Pathways in our lives.

  • Larry

    Because the anti-gay crowd is a combination of hysterical, dishonest and many are just plain stupid.

    It is in the best interests of the anti-gay religious and political leaders to pretend the sky is falling and churches will be forced to perform these weddings. This way they can garner support for legalized discrimination against gays in other avenues. “If we don’t discriminate against them here, we will be powerless to do so in our churches!!!” Parishioners are gullible enough to buy such arguments and repeat them ad nauseum. Its really a brain dead argument from a rational standpoint.

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