Same-sex marriage ruling a revelatory moment for Christians (COMMENTARY)

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A man holds up a Bible in front of the Supreme Court on Tuesday, April 28, 2015, after justices hear arguments about same-sex marriage. Religion News Service photo by Kevin Eckstrom

A man holds up a Bible in front of the Supreme Court on Tuesday, April 28, 2015, after justices hear arguments about same-sex marriage. Religion News Service photo by Kevin Eckstrom

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(RNS) If marriage equality becomes the law of the land, we evangelicals must find a way to live with it. We must minister in the different context.

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  • Doc Anthony

    Here’s an amazing revelation: 1 Cor 6:9-11 and 1 Cor 10:13.

  • Be Brave

    Well, not surprisingly, your “progressive’ theology is warped.

    “The Israelites” never practiced human sacrifice. That would be welcoming and affirming abomination of the peoples around them. It was when Israel “affirmed” the behaviors of the peoples around them that they became sinful as a group.

    Strike one.

    The Israelites owned slaves after leaving Egypt. They were just supposed to be better to them than they were treated by the Egyptians

    Strike two.

    There is no such thing as same gender marriage ever affirmed by the Israelites. Again, that behavior was for those outside of Israel. And, the Israelites were commanded NOT to be like the peoples they encountered.

    Strike three.

    Christians also, as admonished NOT to become like the world and its ways. Christians are the Ecclesia: “The Called out ones.” The rainbow flag and its worshippers ALL came from worldly actions and movements.

    Strike four.

    Whatever seminary you went to, you wasted your money…

  • Larry

    Typical hypocritical responses.

    Pretending all “sins” are the same and should be treated as such. That it is even remotely plausible to equate marriage equality with ritual murder, slavery, and mistreating others. What a load of crap!

    The idea that “combating sins in others” is an excuse for one’s own bad behavior and maltreatment of others is nothing more than using religion for personal ends.

    Some acts are considered “sinful” because they are a clear and obvious harm to those on the receiving end. Acts which would be considered crimes or “torts” in any kind of court. Others are just considered sinful due to arbitrary directives in scripture. One does not treat what would be a crime to anyone (believer or not) in the same fashion as a purely religious/sectarian prohibition.

    But then again I am assuming people are being rational and not just looking for socially acceptable ways to express personal bigotry. Its not an assumption borne by reality. 🙂

  • Katelyn

    A person using the name Jerry has regularly been posting rude, insulting, and sexist comments on RNS articles. Most of his comments are being removed and/or have been cited as abusive. If you see more of his comments in the same vein, I encourage you to click the report abuse link. I doubt that Jerry has the fortitude to make a real apology.

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  • David

    Be Brave, I went to the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and I would agree that now it is a waste of money. I pray that you can open up your heart and mind and let God help you get rid of all that anger that is evident in your life as you post. You would be amazed at what God can teach you if you will be open.

  • Be Brave

    Katelyn,

    You were my favorite Olympian.

    Do you still have Decathlon Medal? Hopefully you don’t have to relinquish it?

    Good memories are so important.

  • Be Brave

    It’s not anger David. It’s disdain for those that attack innocent Christians. You know, the ones that won’t sellout the Lord for a comfy place in the parade. I give back what the bullies dish out. And notice my reference material is always correct.

  • Spaceman Spliff

    Sorry, he traded the medal in exchange for net points on the film “Can’t Stop the Music”. Athletes are seldom known for their financial acumen.

    https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/43/cf/65/43cf65a1524d14b3d41f7061fc6619d6.jpg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Can%27t_Stop_the_Music

  • Garson Abuita

    Isaac wasn’t Abraham’s oldest son, Ishmael was. You may have unwittingly bolstered the Islamic version of the story here.
    Also, the “Pharisees” didn’t protest Jesus’s answer to what was the greatest commandment. That’s because both answers were acceptable. In fact, Rabbi Akiva, who lived while the gospels were being written, cited love your neighbor as yourself as a fundamental principle of Torah.

  • Theodore Hyczko

    Jesus Christ gave the definition of marriage under God’s Law in Matthew 19
    we are not to judge other people but we are to follow Jesus Christ
    Love God with all your heart Love our neighbor as ourselves and love our enemies
    That said Jesus Christ did say Luke 17 that when he returns it will be like the days of Noah and Lot.

    Luke 17
    26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

    27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

    28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

    29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

  • Anya4000

    Yes, Christians should love their neighbors as themselves but Christians are also told to be in the world but not of it. I think many Christians don’t take that teaching seriously because it’s often impossible to tell the difference between a Christian and a nonchristian except for a couple of hours on a Sunday/Saturday. I am sorry but if you want to be a Christian you better take the Bible seriously and seek out a relationship with God and not pine for the world’s good opinion. If you have the world’s good opinion, I think you’re failing in your Christian walk. Do I think you should be hateful to anyone “NO” but you certainly can’t approve of any sinful lifestyle, and you shouldn’t be living that lifestyle either. Love others yes condone their behaviours no. Shake the dust from your feet if they wont listen to your message and move on to the next town/unsaved person and explain the message again (Rinse and Repeat). We are messengers, and we are to live the example that was…

  • Anya4000

    Shake the dust from your feet if they wont listen to your message and move on to the next town/unsaved person and explain the message again (Rinse and Repeat). We are messengers, and we are to live the example that was set, when we stop doing this then we fail just like the Jews did (Christ chose the Gentiles next: Are the Gentiles failing at their task?). They hated Christ first…If they love you then there might be a problem.

  • Larry

    The irony of such a stock, badly considered canned response is that “not approving of sinful lifestyle” involves exactly the same behavior one sees when being hateful as well. You are encouraging people to act in a hateful manner but lie to themselves and others and claim it is something else.

    How does one show love of thy neighbor if they are constantly pushing them away and mistreating them as judgment of their sins? They don’t.

    The whole, “I am being righteous by not condoning their sinful lifestyle” is a load of junk. You are merely trying to use religion as an excuse not to love thy neighbor. Seeking conditions that undermine the intent and purpose of that commandment. Trying to follow the letter of the law but trying to violate its spirit.

    Then again, I am trying to treat belief as something based on rational thoughtful consideration. Reality shows otherwise.

  • Ro Na

    Anya4000-Amen/very well said! 1 Corinthians 5 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-12
    also Romans 1:18-32 make it clear we are not to pracitce any kind of sin!
    John 7:24 says don’t judge by mere appearance…make a right judgment
    so telling people that it is not okay to get drunk, be mean,gossip,gamble,
    sell sex,have premarital sex is not jduging but telling the person the Truth.
    1 Corinthians 7 says that marriage is still for a man and a woman so the
    person who claims to be Christian yet still has sex outside of marriage in
    any form is wrong! A practicin homosexual is wrong but so are those who
    still get drunk,be mean,gamble,don’t bridle their sharp tongue,gossip so
    if we say one sin is okay we have to say all sin is okay and no sin is okay!
    We all must Repent!

  • Marco

    David: Best retort! Stay strong.

  • Barry the Baptist

    You didn’t post any references. I can’t recall when you’ve ever posted references. o_O

    Is this supposed to be farcical?

  • Linda

    Amen! I couldn’t have said it better. Same sex marriage is condemned in BOTH the Old Testament and New Testament. All of the evangelical ministers that I follow would NEVER slap God in the face and perform this Sodom and Gomorrah act. Christians and Jews HATE what God hates and He calls homosexuality an abomination. God is the same yesterday, today and forever and He hasn’t changed His mind on same sex marriage. Nor should we!

  • Greg1

    Anya, you will never convince Larry, as he is very very emotionally attached in the gay rights movement. The only things that would change him is either a trip to Medjugorje, or an appearance to him by Jesus himself. He cannot comprehend loving your neighbor as yourself, and at the same time condemning/disapproving of that same neighbor’s lifestyle. To Larry those are diametric opposites.

  • Larry

    Mostly because I don’t have to lie and spin a position for support as you do. I can’t say with a straight face that treating people like crap is “loving” or not the acts of a hateful intention. I hold people to actual morals. Not arbitrary rules outsourced by unquestioned authority. Calling your attitude “loving” is a fiction. No honest and clear thinking person would call it as such.
    I am not trying to qualify or weaselword Jesus. That is all you.

    Then again, I acknowledge your belief is not what clear thinking people do.

  • Will

    This is nonsense: nothing new has been revealed other than American society is becoming more accepting of the sin of homosexual behavior.

    There is no positive reference to homosexuality in the Bible. Christ referred to marriage as a man and a woman. Since both Romans and Greeks allowed homosexual, Christ was aware of it but clearly did not approve of it or any way alter the Old Testament teachings on homosexuality.

    David Key seems ignorant of Scripture and Christian Theology.

  • Be Brave

    Notice that it is the gay activists that have labeled Christian truth as hate. Christians that do not affirm homosexual behavior are the ones practicing love and commitment to the truth. It is the intolerant haters of Christian truth that have labeled the dissent of gay pride hate. And even more evil, they have invented a new word to force obeisance to the rainbow idolatry they follow: homophobia. They weild it like a whip onto the backs of anyone that dares to live as the Apostles taught. There is no Christian justification for anything written in this article. Just the same old gay propaganda.

    There is no good reason to force Christians to celebrate gay behavior.

  • G J

    My church is accepting of people who have been divorced. My church does not perform divorces. Marriage, like the Sabbath, has a Lord and I am not the Lord over it. What good is my Lord if he can be over ruled by nine men. Thank you for the artical David it is the kind of artical that forces me to examine whom I beleive.

  • Ben in Oakland

    Or, you could just learn to do as Jesus bade you, stop assuming that you have any business getting into the lives of other people who don’t want you there, and about which and whom you know absolutely nothing.

    When you are finished with that! You can try to Mind your own goddam and God-damning business, remove the log in your own pharisaical eye before presuming to remove the alleged speck from mine, and focus on your own family and stay away from mine.

  • Ben in Oakland

    No Karla. Back again, I see.

  • Ben in Oakland

    Thank you for your commentary, mr. Key.

    If you are reading these comments, you know that a good many of the people so commenting are in fact anti-gay people who use their religious beliefs as an excuse for their not so pretty beliefs.

    They are indeed the people that Jesus described as “scribes! Pharisees! Hypocrites!”. However, they just prefer to believe that they are being righteous rather than self-righteous, moral rather than moralizing. They are indeed the people Jesus was talking to when he said to look not for the speck in your brother’s eye, lest you miss the beam in your own. They are the sinners who brought their own stones.

  • Shawnie5

    Here are your references:

    “Abraham doesn’t participate in human sacrifice ever again. Neither do the Israelites.” False: I Kings 17:17

    “Moses and his people kept moving forward across the sea and into the wilderness toward freedom, never to accept slavery for themselves ever again.” False: Leviticus 25

    “Even Jesus encountered opposition from the religious leaders of his day, when he declared a revelatory moment by saying that loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself were the prime commandments to follow over all other regulations in Scripture.” False: Lev. 19:18.

    What a depressing display of scriptural ignorance–or, even worse, misrepresentation.

    Here’s a real “revelatory moment” for him: Acts 17:11 “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”

    And that’s what we all should be doing.

  • Shawnie5

    Make that II Kings 17:17.

  • Doc Anthony

    “Reality shows otherwise.”

    Yeah. *Atheist* reality. Heh!

  • Doc Anthony

    Lotta angry atheists (and gay activists) floating around here these days…

  • Steve

    You seem nice.

    Feel that seething Christian hate. It’s really what the gospels were all about, isn’t it?

  • Larry

    Yep. One that doesn’t depend on magical sky fairies and miracles. 🙂

  • Be Brave

    Ben,

    Talk about logs in eyes and people that should butt out where they are rudely forcing their ways on others . . .

    Please take that message to your rainbow pals on your parade route as it tries to smash it’s way into The Church.

    Very intolerant of y’all.

  • Stephen Dooley

    Yes, the one who wasted his money on Seminary and published from his convictions is being challenged by someone who posts from legalistic interpretations and isn’t brave enough to share his name. Sounds like the current day version of a Pharasee. At least the author of this piece is approaching life by Jesus’ principles rather than just criticizing and judgement. If you approached people and truth as Jesus did, from the heart, then maybe you can figure things out more clearly for yourself. Maybe you need to be blinded like Saul in order to see.

    Signed Stephen Dooley, seeker of truth and not afraid to post openly rather than out of retaliatory hatred.

  • Shawnie5

    “Sounds like the current day version of a Pharasee.”

    The current day version of a Pharisee is one who does just what Jesus described them doing: “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your own tradition.” Mark 7:9

    Just as here we have someone calling for the church to set aside the word of God in order to support the secular world’s fad du jour for which no scriptural case can be made other than that they’re “tired of being against everything.”

    Here’s one of Jesus’ principles: “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God.”

    “If you approached people and truth as Jesus did, from the heart, then maybe you can figure things out more clearly for yourself.”

    Here’s how Jesus approached people and truth: “But unless you repent, you too will all perish.” Luke 13:3

  • Bible believer

    Insane. You’re evil to believe that we need to change holiness to unholiness for wicked sinners who Swallow each other sperm.
    God doesn’t change .
    And people do not repent and do what he says they will burn in hell it’s that simple .
    You’re Nothing but a charlatan hireling and a wolf in sheep’s clothing .
    He thinks because he has a title on his name then we’re gonna believe him .
    Just told us let no man deceive you for many shall come in my name ….

  • Bible lover

    Jesus said whatsoever God has joined together let no man put asunder .
    And Jesus said that God put together a man and a woman .
    That’s ALL he put together : A man and a woman .
    We have Jesus word which Will never pass away that same sex so-called marriage will NEVER put asunder what God put together : a man and a woman.
    Let them hold all the ceremonies they want . Let the Supreme Court call sin, sodomy and abomination a federal law ,
    It can never change what the holy God said .
    And these seminary educated fools who call themselves ministers of the gospel
    Are not ministers of the gospel . They
    Are the wolves in sheep’s clothing .
    Satan coming as an angel of light Jesus warned about
    Thank God for his WORD.
    Some People think because they have a seminar education that they can speak for God. Sometimes they are the worst ones.
    Whoever thinks that God approves of same-sex marriage is a reprobate.
    Paul the apostle told us this.

  • Bible lover

    Sorry but your argument doesn’t work .
    Christians are supposed to hate sin.
    Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against his church .
    Just isn’t going to happen .
    Christians don’t hate people They hate the evil they do .
    Same sex so call marriage is evil .
    End of story .
    Insanity to think that God would approve of men swallowing each other sperm drinking each other’s urine
    Eating each other’s Feces.
    Loving committed relationships? what a joke .
    Statistics prove the unsanitary lives homosexuals live .
    I pray for them to be saved even as I pray for them to be delivered as I pray for the lost.
    What they do is the very reason why Jesus died on the cross so he could save them from that evil .
    I don’t hate homosexuals I know the judgment of God the wrath of God is On them . Serious stuff .
    Paul the holy apostle Who wrote most of the new testament said they will receive within themselves their just punishment .
    God is not mocked .
    .

  • Be Brave

    SOCK PUPPET ALERT

    SOCK PUPPET ALERT

    Who’s writing under “Bible believer?”

    Larry, Atheist Max, or Ben in Oakland?

  • Ben In Oakland

    Well, thank you very much, bible lover. And I mean that sincerely.

    This is all we ask. If you, your church, or your particular version of God doesn’t approve, it’s fine with me, just stay out of my life.

    if my rights to dominion over your religious beliefs end at your church door, your right to religious dominion over my public life should also end atyour church door.

    That way, we can both be happy.

  • Ben In Oakland

    The reviling and slander that you were engaging and is a mockery of the God you allegedly worship. I don’t know anybody eats feces and drinks urine. maybe you do.

    I know dozens of couples who have been together for 20 to 50 years, and I know of literally hundreds more. They have managed to stay together despite a society that is against them, and despite the people like you to spew the garbage you just did. Likewise, hundreds of thousands of heterosexual couples cannot stay together despite all of the social forces, not to mention their “promises” to God, that are arrayed to keep them together.

    You may not hate us gay people, though given your spew, I sincerely doubt that you don’t. But you certainly despise us, and your ignorance is profound.

  • mike

    It is becoming increasingly apparent that Christianity is a really bad idea.

  • Garson Abuita

    Speak for yourself, not the Jews. The Torah never calls “homosexuality an abomination.”

  • Honest Question

    What if Paul the apostle was not a minister of the gospel? What if he was one of these wolves in sheep’s clothing?

  • Ben In Oakland

    Now, why would WE be posting the same kind of drivel that YOU regularly post?

  • Ben In Oakland

    No, actually, we don’t. I have said many times that you are absolutely free to believe whatever you wish. I have no interest in your religious beliefs.

    I AM interested in you trying to force you religious beliefs into secular law.

  • Stephen

    Be Brave, you are disgusting with your statements. Be Brave and state your name and stand beside your hatred instead of disparaging others to make yourself taller.

  • Stephen

    Homosexuality did not ‘exist’ as such in Greek and Roman Times. If you had to put it in today’s terms people were either in opposite sex pairings or omni-sexual and often depraved. Gays existed, but true gay relationships were rare until Nero’s time when it was more celebrated (and in no way caused the fall of the Roman Empire like so many say).

    Likewise, the bible would not call out Homosexuality when it didn’t exist. It called out all types of extra marital affairs, including men who normally would sleep with women, sleeping with men. It did not talk about men who exclusively love and sleep with other men. That is the problem with reading translations from King James and similar whom translate so many words, phrases and cultural knowledge of the day so wrong.

  • Larry

    Please, by all mans declare that you are more knowledgeable about the Bible and its “proper” interpretations within the Christian faith than a director of Theology from a well regarded university.

    You believe your take on the subject is the most informed and true to the scripture for a believer. Please feel free to tell Professor (Reverend) David W. Key Sr. why he doesn’t really know the Bible as well as you do. 🙂

  • Mark

    This “revelatory moment” wants nothing more than give us a new Jesus and a new message of Scripture. This new revelation does not sing, “Faith of Our Fathers, Holy Faith, we will be true to thee tell death!” It thumbs its nose at the past, gives the saints that passed on and are in heaven no vote in the matter; tells our Fathers that they know nothing about God’s design and human sexuality; and claims in arrogance a “new enlightenment”.

    This new revelation “progressive Churches” are having is only coming about because they have already lost their voice to the world, are declining in membership, and are taking their lead from the government rather than God.
    Professing themselves wise they become fools!

  • Larry

    And yet the acts of showing “loving” to another in this regard, as Jesus directs all Christians, is entirely indistinguishable from acts which are malicious and hateful.

    There is no qualification to Jesus’s command to “love thy neighbor”. It is not “love thy neighbor unless they are sinning”.

    To know a Christian is to know their deeds, not their excuses. If their deeds appear hateful, they are not being loving. They are simply using the Bible to justify their personal prejudices.

  • Larry

    So Shawnie, are you saying Professor/Reverend David W. Key Sr. was speaking from ignorance of the Bible when he wrote the commentary? Obviously his view is far different from your own. You both can’t be right. 😉

  • Larry

    That’s usually ronald’s job. 🙂

  • Shawnie5

    I already did. And I wasn’t even finished.

    “Those who claim God speaking to them to preserve the past or maintain the status quo are not having a revelatory moment.” False: Jer. 6:16. Jeremiah wasn’t too popular in his day, either, as Jesus reminded his contemporaries.

    Of course, if you have some rebuttal to make that consists of more than simply pointing to someone else, feel free.

  • Shawnie5

    I hope it was ignorance — because if it wasn’t, then he is in serious danger of being counted among those of whom Jesus said:

    “Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin. Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.” Luke 17:1-3

    “Obviously his view is far different from your own. You both can’t be right.” When did you suddenly get that flash of insight? Generally your idea of a rebuttal is to simply point out the mere existence of a different opinion–without, of course, offering anything to support that opinion’s veracity,

  • Shawnie5

    BTW, Lare, when did you get so impressed with theologians? Are you just as impressed and reverential toward Dr. Richard Hays, the George Washington Ivey Professor of New Testament and Dean of Duke Divinity School, who says that homosexual practice is inconsistent with biblical Christianity? Why or why not?

  • Larry

    “David Key seems ignorant of Scripture and Christian Theology.”

    David Key being a professor of theology and ordained Reverend at a well regarded college. Somehow he is less knowledgeable of scripture than your average Christian fundamentalist spouting on a web discussion.

    So I guess even Christians don’t think much of the authority of theologians and clergy when it comes to interpreting their scriptures.

  • Shawnie5

    Meaningless distinctions, Stephen. The Bible’s writers were not concerned with inclinations at all — they were concerned with actual behaviors. Same-sex behavior was described in the broadest manner possible and categorically prohibited.

  • Shawnie5

    Well, his many falsehoods up are demonstrated up above. Did you read the references? Do you have a rebuttal?

  • Larry

    But you are not brave enough to declare yourself to more knowledgeable than Key on the subject. No more than you were to declare clergy and functionaries in your own church who disagree with you on the subject to be.

    Christians tend to take things like ordainment and advanced degrees in theology seriously as proof positive of knowledge of scripture and interpretation of it. You constantly attack others who disagree with you as allegedly being ignorant of scripture. Obviously that is not the case here.

    As for those other theologians you alluded to, have they responded to Professor/Reverend Key? I would be curious as to their rebuttal.

    I am not a Christian. I don’t take the words of any theologian seriously as the sole interpretation of scripture. But you are. You are beholden to the concept that such people have that kind of authority. Or like all discussions with fundamentalists, it is whatever will work for a given argument.

  • Larry

    Don’t care. As someone who is not a Christian, I don’t take any theologians seriously.

    Objective observation has shown scriptural interpretation is always subjective to the individual or whatever a given sect declares. One seeks authority after the fact to confirm one’s beliefs not seek proof for them.

    But as a believer you are beholden to investing such people with authority on the subject.

    You can’t say he didn’t study scripture closely or that he is unfamiliar with the practice of Christianity as a member of its clergy. You can accuse Key of many things, but ignorance is not one of them.

    So now you have gone from arrogantly considering him ignorant to just calling him a liar. Wow you Christians are pretty vicious to each other. 🙂

  • Larry

    Obviously you know more about the intent of the Bible’s authorship than a professor of theology and ordained revered. /sarcasm.

    Why should people believe you over Professor Key?

  • Shawnie5

    “You are beholden to the concept that such people have that kind of authority.”

    You are just exactly wrong about that. I don’t cite any theologians or scholars for my benefit but for yours. Those who don’t know the stuff need the scholars and the cites. Of course, there is the beauty of having some education — you’re not at the mercy of every charlatan with letters after his name but can make your own informed evaluations.

    “You constantly attack others who disagree with you as allegedly being ignorant of scripture. Obviously that is not the case here.”

    Again, I said MOST are ignorant of scripture — such as yourself. Those who know better but misrepresent, well, that is a more serious matter.

    As for rebuttals…Dr. Hays rebutted Boswell. When you’ve rebutted Boswell, you’ve rebutted them all:

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/bible/reply.html

  • Shawnie5

    If you knew anything about the subject matter you wouldn’t have to “believe” me or anyone else at all.

    Why do you believe Dr. Key? As has already been demonstrated, he’s a bit lacking on his facts.

  • Shawnie5

    “Don’t care. As someone who is not a Christian, I don’t take any theologians seriously.”

    LOL! IOW, “I don’t have a clue what I’m talking about. I just want to bark from the sidelines.” As usual.

  • Fran

    Leviticus 18:22 brings out: “And you must not lie down with a male the same as you lie down with a female. It is a detestable thing.”

  • Be Brave

    Key is utterly wrong. He is simply parroting the world and its ways. He hasn’t any support from the New Testament so he has to rely on revelation to cover up his heresy. Charles Taze Russell and Joseph Smith et al, did the same thing.

    The Pharisees were the supposed learned scholars. The Apostles just followed and preached the truth.

    Key is in the wrong.

  • Be Brave

    That’s insanity. You are simply writing into the bible gay propaganda. There isn’t one affirming declaration for same gender sexual couplings. And without doubt, there is no such thing as same gender marriage.

    To say so is producing doctrines of demons.

  • Be Brave

    When a so-called theologian is spouting heresy, he is simply someone that should be avoided like the plague he is delivering.

    He would be somewhat honest if he admitted that he is inventing a new religion like Mormonism, a spinoff of New Testament scripture and stand his ground in his organization.

  • Be Brave

    Read what the Sodomites threatened Lot with. These people are not nice. I haven’t been called to be a martyr just yet. They want to ruin anyone that won’t bow to their rainbow idol.

    I’d rather my words be “tested” by scripture.

    I am innocent of any charge made against me by gay activists and their anti-Christian supporters.

  • larry

    Again, you are assuming I would ever care whether one can justify mistreatment of gays through spurious scriptural interpretation. People don’t believe in a rational way, so there is no reason to expect rational explanations for their belief. Citation to authority on the subject will always be self-serving nonsense.

    Only fundamentalists are delusional enough to claim to have the sole word on such matters. Dr. Hays hasn’t addressed Professor Key, has he?

    “Again, I said MOST are ignorant of scripture ”

    But not David Key, he is just a liar in your eyes. You know better…because. Are women even allowed to attend seminary in your sect?

  • I am not the one trying to contradict a person with advanced education and training in the interpretation of Christian scripture and its practice as clergy. A subject you are claiming such lofty levels of knowledge and familiarity. Its not me you have to convince, its him.

  • Be Brave

    Excellent position Mark. And “Amazing Grace” will be more than likely hate speech if anyone dared to open to its page in a “gay” religious org.

    These LGBT groups are playing for ALL the marbles. They want absolute domination and authority. An age old aspiration of the depraved.

    The author of this article declares that 100%. It is all gay all the time. That rainbow flag draped over every cross in every Christian Church. Every “real” Christian Church. I see it’s already staining the walls of some places that used to be Churches.

  • I can’t help it if your usual game plan of insults and feigned expertise falls to the wayside when actual respectable clergy and theologians think your position is garbage. I am having fun with this.

  • So where did you get your divinity degree?
    Which sect are you ordained in?
    Where have you studied theology?

    🙂

  • Shawnie5

    Excuse me, Lare, but you quite clearly asked me why people should believe me and not Key. Not why Key should believe me. Do you even know why you are arguing?

  • Shawnie5

    “Actual respectable clergy and theologians” think his position is garbage as well. Actual respectable experts of one kind or another will always be available to support whatever viewpoint you like — every party to a lawsuit has one. The responsibility of each of us is to know this subject matter for ourselves in order to separate the true from the false–which rather leaves you out of the loop altogether.

    As BB noted above, the Pharisees were the “scholars” of their day, and none was more “scholarly” than Paul, the learned, multilingual and urbane student of Gamaliel. Yet the Berean Christians didn’t just swallow whatever he told them like you swallow whatever assertions fit your prejudices. They checked and double-checked him against scripture. That is the responsibility of each of us. “Watch out that none deceive you!”

  • Shawnie5

    “You are assuming I would ever care whether one can justify mistreatment of gays through spurious scriptural interpretation.”

    Nobody is wanting to “mistreat” gays, nor is the traditional scriptural view spurious. Obviously you at least care enough to misrepresent the case.

    “Dr. Hays hasn’t addressed Professor Key, has he?”

    As I already said, Hays rebutted Key and every other “gay-affirming” Christian when he rebutted Boswell. As you would know if you had any background on the subject, all of the arguments for condoning same-sex practice in the church come from Boswell.

    “But not David Key, he is just a liar in your eyes.”

    I just demonstrated four easily-recognizable factual errors that Key made within a single essay. Garson pointed out two more. As my grandpa used to say, ” ’nuff said.”

  • Shawnie5

    HQ, it wouldn’t matter. There’s not much in Paul’s letters which can’t be found in the gospels.

  • Shawnie5

    The informed contend on the issues. The ignorant bark from the sidelines about degrees. Sigh.

  • Shawnie5

    “Objective observation has shown scriptural interpretation is always subjective to the individual or whatever a given sect declares.”

    Objective observation — by you? LOL!

    “One seeks authority after the fact to confirm one’s beliefs not seek proof for them.”

    I’m afraid that is what the gay-affirmers have been doing ever since Boswell. Not searching the scriptures to discern the word and the will of God, but to find excuses for their own desires. This is why Dr. Key had to fall back on “revelation,” because he can make no compelling scriptural case.

    And as far as the unbelievers like you are concerned…none of you ever express respect or admiration for theologians’ command of, or fidelity to, scripture, but only for whether their conclusions appeal to you. And if their conclusions appeal to unbelievers, then according to Jesus that is a HUGE red flag — for the world loves its own. There is no reason to “take you seriously” at all.

  • larry

    Well no. you demonstrated your own self-serving take on scripture. Like everyone else who pretends religious beliefs justifies their actions.

    “Nobody is wanting to “mistreat” gays”

    That is quite untrue, obviously so. I doubt you even believe such a blatant untruth. Plenty of Christians (including yourself) are demanding the right to discriminate against them in public settings, demanding they be ostracized from families, and even advocating their imprisonment and death. You know this.

    All I can do is facepalm in the face of such a blatant untruth.

  • larry

    Because Key is objectively an expert on the subject and went through both the education and the process of ordainment. Its quite a bit for you to overcome if you are going to claim superior expertise on the subject.

  • larry

    AKA opinionated amateurs.

    Glad to know that any pretension of education and expertise on the subject of Christian religion is really just a load of hooey. Something I have been saying for some time. 🙂

  • Shawnie5

    “Well no. you demonstrated your own self-serving take on scripture.”

    No, I didn’t. I gave references to scripture which demonstrate quite clearly that Israelites did not forsake child sacrifice forever after Abraham, did not forsake slavery after the Exodus, did not oppose the idea of love of God and neighbor (since that was already written into the Torah), and that the prophets (whose words, of course, Jesus explicitly endorsed) DID experience revelation exhorting the people to walk in the old ways. All of which directly contradict the author’s claims. And since you admitted you did not examine the references, you have no basis whatsoever upon which to claim that my take is “self-serving.” That, my friend, is called prejudice.

  • Shawnie5

    As for “mistreatment,” I challenge you to show where I have ever advocated death, imprisonment, or ostracism from family for gays. All that is left is “discrimination” in the limited sense of not participating in or facilitating the sin of same-sex union–and if our SCOTUS should ever be so deluded as to view someone’s rights to cake and flowers as more important than the rights of free exercise of religious conscience which were the primary reason why this country was founded in the first place, then I’d be perfectly happy to see my brethren vacate the wedding industry as they did the idolatry and immorality-steeped trade guilds of pagan Rome.

    Facepalm all you want. It might knock some common sense into you.

  • Shawnie5

    Good on you, then. Consider it hooey. Now go check it out for yourself.

  • Shawnie5

    Larry, dear, I already “overcame” it by showcasing several very obvious and demonstrable falsehoods in the essay. The proof is in the pudding, not in the cook’s title. Sorry.

  • Garson Abuita

    That’s exactly it Fran: the plain meaning of the verse you cite prohibits only anal sex between men — specifically proscribing the insertive partner with the verse from Lev. 20 proscribing both partners. To hold that the Torah prohibits “homosexuality” in general, being gay, or even other kinds of same-sex sexual conduct, requires accepting the validity of halachah and rabbinic Judaism — something I thought Christianity had rejected for 1,900 years or so.

  • Shawnie5

    Sounds to me like it prohibits any type of sexual contact with a man that could be had with a woman. “Lying with a woman” encompasses a lot more than mere penetration — coming from a woman, it darn well better. 😉 (See Song of Solomon for details).

  • Daniel

    Shawnie, thank you for the quotes. His word is always true.

    Here is what God said about the defenders of gay marriage.

    “‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ 10, Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes.[a] Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” Isaiah 6:9,10

    “‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’[a]” Mark 4:12

  • Kate

    Thank you for standing up for the Bible! God’s Word IS WHAT IT IS. Moses asked the question, “Who is on the Lord’s side?” Joshua said, “choose this day whom you will serve”.
    And the author of this article is a deceived religious phony!!

  • Kate

    AMEN!!

  • Stephen

    Be Brave, you are anything but innocent, and calling yourself innocent shows how misguided that statement is. True Christians call themselves sinners. To test your words against scripture could find you lacking, especially after only providing disparaging comments to those that are having discussions.

  • Brannon

    Larry, if titles help, I have an MDiv from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and actually served under Dr. Key when I was in college.

    I understand his heart, because we are tired of the negative connotations of our faith. Simultaneously, it easy for us to attack sins we are not tempted with, but acting on homosexual urges is a sin just like it is a sin for me to look with lust on a woman.

    Shawnie5 has, in fact, offered several evidences of Rev. Key’s erroneous comments. I love him as a brother, but he is wrong on this.

    The only hope we have of Heaven is to repent of our sins (agree with God that we’ve fallen short of His perfection (Rom.3:23), understand that the cost for our sin is death (Rom. 6:23); and accept the grace afforded us by Jesus’ willing sacrifice (Rom. 6:23, Eph. 2:8-10).

    Jesus loved us to die for our failures, whatever they may be, and was raised 3 days later. This is what it means to be “born again” (John 3:16). All we do is repent and…

  • Garson Abuita

    Shawnie, you’re absolutely right that there is more than one way to have sexual conduct between a man and a woman. This is why the Torah states “mishkevei ishah” — the “lyings” of a woman. The Talmud expounds that this refers to vaginal and anal intercourse. Two men can’t have vaginal intercourse, so…
    Ultimately, the Jewish approach is either: the traditional halachic answer (Orthodox: all same-sex sexual conduct is prohibited); a re-approach to halacha (Conservative and probably de facto position of some on the Orthodox left: only anal sex between men is prohibited as this is an issur d’oraita, a prohibition directly stated by the Torah); or to say that the halacha no longer applies in modern times (Reform and Reconstructionist).

  • Larry

    You really appear to have missed the entire point of Rev Key’s commentary. Shawnie never got it in the first place.

    The question is not so much the opinion on the sins of others, but how are you going to react in light of losing the legal sanction for such beliefs.

    Are you going to be supportive of measures to discriminate against gays based on such religious belief? Acts usually done under the nonsense phrase, “refusing to affirm the sins of others” but in reality are indistinguishable from any other act of discrimination.

    Are you going to shun them?

    Key seems to believe such actions are damaging and not at all an example of Christian love and compassion. Its very tough to declare with a straight face to be a loving Christian when you are acting in a fashion which is indistinguishable from malice.

  • Shawnie5

    The essay had very little to do with public discrimination, Larry. It was a call for the church to be open to embracing SSM in response to the tide of popular culture which he suggests constitutes some kind of “revelation” about SSM which, of course, can not be found in scripture–as he well knows, since he calls such revelation something that was “unknown before.”

    The gist of his argument is this: “God has been speaking to people for decades, declaring that we should open up the synagogue, temple, church and mosque to gay and transgender individuals and not discriminate against them. The same is true for society as a whole. Marriage, the love between two individuals, should be free for all people, including same-sex couples.”

    I would NOT want to have to account for those words before God, in light of Matt.12:31.

  • Greg1

    Larry, loving your neighbor means doing what it takes to get through to them, so that they can spend eternity in heaven, which is pure ecstasy, rather than hell, which is unending torment.

  • Joseph

    Amen!…This is precisely the work of the gift of the Holy Spirit..in God’s fore knowledge He new that times like this will come and the “spiritual leadership” will be fracture, not taking a stand for what’s right in the sight of our Lord. Just like in the days of the prophet Isaiah chapter 5 calling that which is evil good… Grace is always been given to humanity in the form of God’s word and in the last days through His word made flesh Christ Jesus our anointed savior..so pay attention to His word as a light house in the midst of darkness..today that word IS our light, as Jesus said ..is necessary for me to leave so I may send you the comforter HE WILL TEACH YOU and Remind you of these things..His grace is not to wink to sin..He says be holy for I’m Holy..so we live out our righteousness in Him in gratitude as we Honor His death and Sacrifice for us in love..we love by living God’s word in Love and Truth..be ready to present reason for your faith in Him! We are not ashamed…

  • marva

    well legalization of gay marriages have to happen. It’s the beginning of the falling away and the stage has be set for the coming one world ruler. If there are too many old testament beliefs and traditional Christians practices, he won’t be able to do what he needs to do. This is exciting. We are nearing the end and the conclusion of the world. hallelujah!!!!!!

  • Todday

    They were not righteous
    No one is righteous
    Not one
    You know the bible
    Isaiah says that
    If gays are wrong they still need to be protected
    And they don’t feel safe
    I think that’s what this is really about
    They do not feel loved and yet that is jesus’ command as the writer says
    Above all love one another

  • Joseph Mass

    Well said!

  • Joseph Mass

    Well said.

  • Just read the bible and dont argue with those who are rightious in their own mind.In the end times men will be proud-lovers of themselves..LET THEM BE..THEY ARE NOT FOOLING ANYONE…

  • Nicholas Hughes

    Well as for me and my family, we will trust the Lord, we like Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego will not bow down to the idiol(s) of man.

    Nicholas Hughes
    Caledonia, Ontario

  • Smarty Pants

    Hate is not having a different opinion

  • Rev. Chris Clifton

    “Can’t you both be right?” You are tempting ME to swear. In an attempt to engage in an intellectual debate and to utter such an obtuse thing…
    “Truth”, by definition, is singular unto itself. Two opposing and conflicting views cannot both be right.
    But the obvious ideologies in play here is the real issue.
    The Bible says what it says. There are great foci, millions of dollars spent, and micro-social wars being fought with the perceived victor’s spoils being, “the truth”… the REAL interpretation. The Bible interprets itself. Both Paul and Jesus had an AWESOME tool for parenthetically defining this new covenant we are abiding under. That tool was THE OLD TESTAMENT. God (The Father) used the law, not to frustrate men nor make us jump through hoops so we would realize, that when Jesus came, he was just yanking our chain. The Law is good and Holy. It reveals our sins and tells us that we must have a savior. Men’s ideals do not frame God’s message. He said what He meant. G.M…

  • Gilles

    Thanks alot for your comments. I doubt if he is really a minister of the gospel. Just said Christians will face tribulations in the world. The time for tribulations and persecution has come for those in the US. If you refuse to solemnize gay marriage you are in trouble. As a child of God, stand for the truth, only the truth will set you free. Jesus is that truth, don’t compromise your faith because of some “gay rights” nonsense.

  • You do not speak for Jesus nor for those who follow his example and desire for our lives.

    Stop hating upon my brothers and sisters in Christ. We will no longer tolerate your bigotry.