Gay marriage is the law of the land: two couples, two views

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Elisa Abes, Amber Feldman and their children ages 6 and 4. Photo courtesy of the Feldman/Abes family

Elisa Abes, Amber Feldman and their children ages 6 and 4. Photo courtesy of the Feldman/Abes family

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(RNS) In the days before the Supreme Court's ruling on gay marriage, we asked two couples -- one gay who want to marry, one straight and opposed to gay marriage -- what the court's decision would mean to them.

  • Ted

    The mental gymnastics which allow bigots to pretend to “love the sinner but hate the sin” are baffling. In truth, such bigots hold the false and arrogantly sinful belief that some of God’s children are inherently better than others, due to their skin color, or how they were born to express love.

    May God have mercy on your souls, for all the pain and division you cause with the hatreds you blame on a God who equally loves us all.

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  • Larry

    ““Being opposed to gay marriage doesn’t mean were opposed to gays,” said Kyle Barthelson. “We don’t have disgust or hate-filled opinions toward them at all.”

    Riiiiiight. He just wants to deny them the ability to live in a sane fashion or treat them like human beings. All because he thinks God gives him a right to treat gays badly.

    He thinks his religious beliefs should have color of law without rational reasons and is worried he might have to treat gays with a measure of respect he has to treat anyone else.

    There is a ton of mental gymnastics, canned arguments and plain narcissism required for marriage equality opposition arguments. To say that my religious beliefs is reason for your rights to be limited is ridiculous. It flies in the face of all notions of religious freedom. A concept frequently invoked by marriage equality opponents but almost never done correctly or honestly.

  • Contending For The Faith – BB

    Oh man, how totally appropriate. For the rainbow culture of sexual depravity and promiscuity, marriage is a scam seduction tactic anyway.

    Your cash cow will be all of the Christians needing legal protection from the drooling same sex degenerates of sexual perversion that will not tolerate anyone standing in their way as they continue the search for cleaner and cleaner sex partners.

  • Larry

    “civil suits against clergy for refusing to marry a gay couple”

    I don’t see this happening in churches but definitely in commercial wedding chapels. But then again, a lot of those places have protections by the state that give them a wide level of discretion.

  • Ted

    Um, speaking of drooling depravity … ? I hope real Christians out there begin waking up to realize you’ve been associating yourselves with weirdos obsessed by perverse fantasies about other people’s private lives.

  • Ted

    LOL. How do court cases increase “exponentially” when same-sex couples comprise less than 5% of the population? You’re as bad at math as you are at law.

  • “cheapening of what God intended”

    Gods never get what they want, poor things.

    Ever notice how many times God has to commit mass murder
    to accomplish ‘his goals’ only to see them fail repeatedly?

    God thought he could rid the world of bad people
    by drowning all of the animals (what exactly were they guilty of?)
    including all of humanity, in a great flood – except for Noah and an Ark which God failed to help build.

    God’s failed plan included a re-population of humanity through INCEST!
    Even Noah’s own family turned out to be a bunch of failures – so God failed to save the right family!

    God failed with Jesus completely. Jesus turned out to be a complete failure – spurring needless divisions over centuries of war-mongers.

    The US Constitution, however, appears to be quite successful ever since it abandoned God!
    “Congress shall make no law establishing a religion” – US Constitution

    Man’s laws are better than God’s failures.

  • Will

    The issue really is Christians wanting to protect their beliefs by law instead of just entrusting themselves to the will of God. I am a Christian who believes that homosexuality (and list of a lot other issues, but in context this is what we are talking about) is wrong. Were to see definitive biblical testimony to the contrary (anywhere in scripture), then I would consider changing this view. However, my own communities views cannot be forced on my neighbors if I am to be faithful to my own Lord’s way of reaching out to sinners. The point of true Christianity is not to point out “sins” but to deal with “Sin,” the matrix that we are all born into. It does me know good to point out the evil of homosexual acts with people who do not believe, period. I can’t change anyone and I certainly cannot do that by relegating people to second-class citizenship. Its a struggle, because these are people made in the image of God, not an issue to fight about. You may disagree, and I am okay with…

  • Ben in oakland

    I see. You don’t want to relegate us to second class citizenship, except that you obviously do.

    Christian hypocrisy is just like regular hypocrisy, oh ye scribes, Pharisees and hypocrites. Except that it tastes better to you than it does to the people whom you would relegate to second class citizenship.

  • Ben in oakland

    Cheapening of marriage?

    We fight for the right to marry for decades because we believe in marriage and we wish to protect our lives,loves, children, and families with this legal institution, and WE are cheapening it?

    This comment along shows two things:

    1) bigotry is a big motivator for the anti gay religious people.

    2) not all bigotry is hate. So much of it, as these so called Christians demonstrate, is simply the never questioned always assumed and completely unwarranted belief in your self assigned and otherwise wholly imaginary superiority as a human being.

    Thanks you, Bartheksons, for showing the true face ofbigotry.

    And thank you, be brave, for finally taking your mask off.

  • Will

    Ben, I do not want to relegate you to second-class citizenship; I am glad that you finally have the same civil rights as anyone else. I am saddened that it has taken this long to allow you the same freedom as everyone else. My point was I cannot expect you to believe as do; it is not morally or legally right. I do however believe that all born into sin and the only way out is through an inner transformation that occurs through the Holy Spirit. I do believe Christ died to set us free from our own understanding of how our lives should be lived whether it is money, sex, power, or any other issue.So like I said, you should have the same rights as everyone else does, Christ bless you.

  • @Contending,

    “will not tolerate anyone standing in their way as they continue the search for cleaner and cleaner sex partners.”

    Oh good grief!
    What a depraved vision of humanity you have been handed by religion.

    THE DEPRAVITY OF ISAIAH:
    “All the nations are nothing without God, He regards them..as less than nothing and meaningless….” – (Isaiah 40:18)

    So we are ripped of our humanity if we reject the Great Mass Murderer?
    So we are deprived our dignity if we do not follow the Slave master JESUS?

    “THE SLAVE SHALL BE WHIPPED
    WHETHER HE UNDERSTANDS HIS CRIMES OR NOT!”
    – JESUS (Luke 12:47)

    Despicable, inhumane and criminal.

  • Will

    @Atheist Max

    Your Isaiah quote is talking about the greatness of God in comparison with all the nations of the world; we are small compared to the glory of God according to Isaiah. God does not need them, that is why they are considered to be “as nothing.” Your quoting of Jesus in Luke 12:47 is Jesus describing spiritual realities by analogically referring to the actual system of slavery. He was using an image that the disciples could understand (and Luke used this particular saying because it would identify with his Gentile audience). Neither of these are advocating the destruction of humanity or the beating of slaves.

  • Kyle

    Simply put, yes. Look carefully for the truth, some of us who believe do have a brain. I will not attack gay couples and their love for one another, but I will do my best to let them know it may not be the right thing to do (avoiding the argument on the natural processes reproduction). To each his own, support what you will, but a many great men spread the Gospel through the city streets of countries worse and more deprived than our own with The message of love and peace and, ultimately, salvation. Even if it sounds too good to be true, or something some people just cannot accept because of their own will to do what they want instead, God will always be here, and people like you and I will still be saying these same things until the very end of it all.

  • Dave Frensley

    Ironically, President Obama is delivering a eulogy to a Christian man that led a congregation in a denomination that 100% opposes homosexual marriage. And there isn’t one thing that gay rights activists can say about that.

  • Dave Frensley

    Ben,

    This movement was begun by the Mattachine society way back in the mid-years of the 20th century. Watching an interview with one of the founders of the Mattachine movement, Harry Hay, and it’s clear that this was about standard gay promiscuity being masked as something society would agree to if it were repackaged as something that looked different than it was.

    Certainly Christians being on the opposite side to homosexuals and homosexuality is not a bad thing. Not if the new testament stays a legal document in the coming years.

  • Larry

    So I guess Bryan Fischer is out of a job are the members of the National Organization for Marriage.

    Good riddance to bad rubbish.

  • Kathy

    “Will nonprofits be removed from tax-exempt status?”

    Not a bad idea if it includes all churches and nonprofits.

  • Greg1

    Well it might be the law of the land, but my goal is heaven, and I’ll never get there agreeing with five oddballs on the supreme court.so I will focus on eternity, and ignore the so-called “wise” ones (Rom 1:22).

  • Sister Geraldine Marie, OP, RN, PHN

    @MAX: Sounds like you believe in God!

  • Shawnie5

    What are you complaining about now, Ben? You said you were fine with Christian opposition to same-sex behavior as long as it didn’t deprive you of any rights. Now you have those rights, and Will isn’t advocating removing them. What is the problem?

  • Shawnie5

    Well said, Ben. Thank you.

  • The law of the land for Christians has not changed. The law of the land for Christians never will change. The law of the land for the believer is God’s law, not mans. So, if some people in black robes make up their own rules as they go, it has no effect on God’s law. For the believer nothing changes. The born again believer looks to God and His Word for direction, not to man and His corruption. The message is the same to sinners everywhere, repent! Receive Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. Follow Him as He leads you and you will know God’s peace and blessing and promise of eternal life. God Bless

  • Shawnie5

    Well said, Will, rather. Thank you. 🙂

  • Sister Geraldine Marie, OP, RN, PHN

    The Bible, science and plain common sense are all clear: Homosexuality is an abnormality. It can also be sinful if the person knows it is wrong and gives full consent.

    A true Cristian does not hate nor persecute anyone: we pray for the person and try to show him/her the sinfulness of the action. “To admonish the sinner” is one of the seven spiritual works of mercy.

  • Larry

    And if that “admonishment” involves denying someone goods and services in open commerce, employment, or housing, so be it.

    After all its not discriminating against the people its “refusing to affirm their sins”. ……Even though it looks like and acts exactly like discrimination.

    Please feel free to correct me and say that discrimination in service of your religious beliefs is not acceptable either.

  • Sister Geraldine Marie, OP, RN, PHN

    Oops! I must be tired! A true Christian…brothers and sisters!

  • Sister Geraldine Marie, OP, RN, PHN

    I didn’t say that, Larry. All those things you speak of have nothing to do with the fundamental sin itself, but do flow out of its consequences.

  • Larry

    That is a very cagey answer to a fairly direct question.

    Is discrimination in public such as denying people goods/services, housing and employment an acceptable way for Christians like yourself to be admonishing people for the “sins” of being gay?

    What did you consider admonishing the sinner?

  • Greg1

    Larry I think you know that this whole decision is a sham based upon emotional, rather than, judicious action. It is much like the Abortion decision. Based solely upon some twisted understanding that life begins when a child exits the womb. Likewise, this is a novel understanding of nature itself, which is “naturally” designed to propagate the human race, and from the social dimension, properly develop stable citizens. But of course, you will never see it that way. And until the Lords returns in Glory, many will continue on with the false narrative. Next step for the radical leftists is attempting to trump the freedom of religion clause. Ah! we know how they operate, and with all of their slack jawed followers out there, the crowd will rule. Of course, though, it must be (Luke 18:8),

  • Larry

    Do we have a coherent response to a very simple question:

    Do you think discrimination in public such as denying people goods/services, housing and employment an acceptable way for Christians to be admonishing people for the “sins” of being gay?

  • Greg1

    Larry you have stated plainly that you are willing to engage in that type of discrimination for the polygamists. Who are you to talk?

  • Larry

    Someone who is far more honest than yourself. I never said anything of the sort. I have pointed out that people like you used polygamy as a particularly boneheaded analogy to gay marriage.

    My position on polygamy unlike your position on this subject is based on rational and secular motives (hence Constitutionally friendly). Until polygamists get off their duff and start drafting ways to accommodate polygamy into our existing laws concerning marriage, there is no reason to consider it. Polygamy wreaks havoc on our current binary default marriage system. Thank you for wasting time on stupid analogy.

    Why can’t you answer a simple question? Obviously because the answer is obviously not a socially acceptable one. You want to declare a phony right to discriminate against gays as some kind of religious exercise on your part. That “refusing to affirm the sins” of gays is just bigot-speak for “discriminate against them wherever possible”

  • @Sister,

    “You believe in God”

    No. I don’t.
    When I speak of God I am referring to the literary character as he is described in a work of fiction (The Bible).

    The Incredible Hulk, Dumbledore and Spiderman have similar failure and problems to solve – including the fact that they too, are fictional.

  • @Will,

    Your apologies for these horrific preachments demonstrates
    a lack of empathy for your fellow human beings – especially who have suffered lifetimes of agony because of these commands.

    GOD COMMANDS SLAVES NOT TO RUN AWAY FROM THEIR MASTERS – even if they are being subjected to SEXUAL ASSAULT!

    “Slaves, OBEY your masters with all REVERENCE…even those who are PERVERSE.” (1 Peter 2:18)

    Shameful nonsense.
    The New Testament is a nightmare.

  • Tim

    Funny how you justify the oxymoron that is gay “marriage” by claiming God wants it that way! Today’s ruling necessarily infringes on the religious freedom of the vast majority. Let’s see what happens when the first gay couple sues a church for refusing to marry them, the bakery to serve them, the florist to decorate them and the hotel to host the party. O wait, most of that is already happening.
    As a PR guy, I admire the gay lobby, as it did its job quite well. Control the conversation is rule #1.

  • The Great God Pan

    “And there isn’t one thing that gay rights activists can say about that.”

    Other than that it is irrelevant and a red herring.

  • Ben in oakland

    Will, thank you. That I can accept and respect. I don’t agree with you on the issues of legality and/or morality at all, and I never will. But as long as your beliefs are not imposed upon me by force of law, I can agree to disagree.

  • Ben in oakland

    So one testimony of one guy determines the behavior and beliefs of all gay people everywhere and for all time. Got it. Nobody would call that bigotry, really, would they?

    As for the rest of your nonsense, yes indeed, it is and always has been a bad thing. Murders, executions, destroyed lives, jails, and destroyed families has been the result.

    But funny, you and your kind are not all of the Christians out there. I also know of no tenet of Christianity which defines Christianity as opposition to gay people.

  • bqrq

    Obama supports gay sex for other people’s children but not for his own daughters.Tell us why its good for our sons but not for your daughters?
    Obama is a liar and a hypocrite. Gay marriage is legalized child molesting.

  • Richard Dey

    Agree. Until reading responses to the SC decision from religionists, I was hoping we could all move on in the best interests of children, It’s obvious that we need more legislation to keep religious self-righteousness away from our children. I’m withdrawing my offer to support prayers in the schools or the right to deny gay wedding cakes. But, then, I can’t say I expected anything better from Bible Bompers. When Christianity is smug, the body language and the mouth say I AM WRONG and I’M A BAD LOSER. It’s no way to show children how to lose.

  • larry

    No I didn’t. But its good to see the boneheaded analogy of marriage equality and polygamy raise its head again. Can you be more silly? Of course. Btw unlike a gay marriage ban, there are rational and secular arguments against polygamy.

    But you won’t answer a direct question as to whether you consider discriminatory conduct an acceptable way for christians to “admonish” people for being gay.

  • Its time for your meds. Marriage between adults is “legalized child molesting”?

    Whoo boy, someone needs a fainting couch.

  • Same sex marriage is not “the law of the land” for the “earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof”. SCOTUS can say whatever they want but they can never alter the Word of God. My Bible still reads the same as it did Thursday.
    SCOTUS did true Christians a favor in that we now clearly know where we stand. We are strangers and aliens in America, a despised and increasingly persecuted minority. This is not our country.
    What most cannot see is that the rise of homosexuality and the insanity in government IS the judgment of God. But it is not the end of His judgment.
    Before God destroyed Sodom He first removed His people.

  • Sister Geraldine, that was a cheap comment. Here’s a link just for you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

  • Are you well satiated now, Shawnie5? That must have been a big release for you.

  • MW in GA

    I realize this is an extremely moot point today, but why does the federal government need to take any stance on “marriage”? The way I see it, marriage is a religious/cultural institution with its own set of restrictions and rules based upon the religious backgrounds of those involved. Some religions allow for gay marriage, others for multiple wives, etc. it seems that this debate (at least what is being published) is a desire for equal rights vs. a religious opposition to a change in vocabulary.

    My compromise… In a legal sense, every current marriage, gay or straight, needs to be referred to as a civil union, with the exact same benefits for both. Marriage can then be considered as a religious sacrament by whichever religion those involved may choose, while not angering the individuals who reject to a marriage on religious grounds. This way, everyone gets equal rights and people can define marriage however they choose based upon their religious/cultural beliefs.

  • Greg1

    Larry, there is nothing discriminatory about following one’s beliefs. For you, a person who does not believe in God, would be clearly and openly discriminating against polygamous marriage, and those who push for it. But to follow one’s Faith, is different, as we are called to follow Christ Jesus, the King of the Universe. Everything else is second. We are One Nation, under God. Notice who is on top.

  • Greg1

    MW: That would be knuckling under to the Devil. His ultimate objective is to destroy marriage, and now he is halfway there. It is very clear who is behind this thing, and it is not a human. They are only tools used by the Prince of Darkness. There was an apparition in the 1600’s which foretold of our times. Connect on the below link, and you might be surprised at how accurate it is:
    https://www.olrl.org/prophecy/goodsuccess.shtml

  • Pete

    He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD.

  • larry

    The KKK said the same thing. They also thought Jesus endorsed their brand of hatred as well. You are in good company.

    But you have given your answer. Your respect for civil laws and religious freedom is so defective that you think being a christian entitles you to treat everyone else like crap in public settings. That you should be a law unto yourself and all others must kiss your posterior. Whatever freedoms you have in this nation are just a means to your personal ends. I am ashamed to call you an American.

    One thing you must always remember when it comes to religious freedom. I never have to give a flying crap what you think God has to say about me or anyone else. You can’t make me. 🙂

  • Ben in oakland

    I wish you would, but you won’t. not now. not ever. You’ll continue to lie, distort, and propagandize as you always have. and you’ll continue to feel righteous as you do.

  • Ben in oakland

    Oh, goody. so you’ll be moving to Russia or Iran or Uganda? I hear they are lovely this time of year, and they hate gay people as much as you do.

    70% of the population is an increasingly persecuted minority? Oh, poor baby.

    “Before God destroyed Sodom He first removed His people.” Let’s see, there was an old drunk who offered his virgin daughters to a rapist mob. There was his wife who could not obey a direct commandment from god: “Don’t look back!” And then there were those two virgin daughters, who got their father drunk so that they could have sex with him.

    Yup. Those do indeed sound like HIS PEOPLE.

  • Ben in oakland

    We have all of that right now. It’s called a CIVIL MARRIAGE LICENSE.

    religion is completely optional. Call your extra special religious version of marriage HOLY MATRIMONY. That way, you can continue to be as special as you think you are.

  • Ben in oakland

    I can’t even vbe polite to this nonsense.

    STUPID!!!!!!!

    The devil wants to destroy marriage, and he does it by encouraging people to affirm the value of marriage by getting married. Makes perfect sense.

    But let’s see who you are really attacking. Surprise: IT’S HETEROSEXUAL. CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS!

    Who are going to abandon their deeply held religious beliefs about sex, morality, marriage and children? The Christian majority, according to you. Just like that idiotic marriage brief brought ot your courtesy of the Mormon heretics. Gay marriage will cause 900,000 abortions. and who wiould be getting those abortions? Why the very people that the brief writer, Gene Schaerr, claimed were his audience.

    conservative, religious Christians,

    why is it that when these people misbehave and abandon their core religious beliefs, the fault is always on someone else? Gay people, secular society, and now, you’re blaming satan.

    Can’t say I think much of their morality and…

  • The Great God Pan

    “…a religious opposition to a change in vocabulary.”

    No, that is not what they’re objecting to. Like all the would-be compromisers on this issue, you ignore the fact that opponents of same-sex marriage took compromise off the table from the get-go.

    Ask yourself this: If they only cared about the definition of the word “marriage” and were willing to compromise, then why did they make sure that nearly all of the state-level laws outlawing gay marriage also outlawed any same-sex legal arrangements similar to marriage (e.g.. your suggested “civil unions”)?

    You give religious conservatives more credit than they have earned. They don’t oppose merely the application of a particular word to same-sex relationships. They oppose the relationships themselves and any legal recognition of them under any name.

  • Greg1

    It would be interesting if the States which have the gay-marriage bans, voted on by the people of those states, were to just follow the lead of the liberal leftist groups–using one of their tactics–and simply not comply with the SC. We’ll have to see what happens going forward. One thing is certain, Boehner and McConnell will not generate law that forbids gay marriage, as they are sheer politicians, so it will be interesting to see how the States respond.

  • Marva

    Lord Forgive them for they know not what they do. As it was in the days of Noah so it will be when the world end. The Lord will send them a strong delusion that they should believe a Lie because they love not the truth. JUDGEMENT IS COMING… WAKE UP WORLD….JUDGEMENT IS COMING

  • Christopher Vanderhorst

    Here’s an idea, why not use the truth in decisions like this? http://www.neverequal.com

  • Ben in Oakland

    The problem is, how do you tell the difference? We have people who post on these pages they claim to be Christians and who are willing to tell any lie, no matter how vicious, as long as it damages gay people. And they will do it in the name of God.

  • Ben in Oakland

    Well then, honey, you want to be happy. Judgment is coming Jesus is coming hallelujah glory hallelujah everyone is coming and coming and coming.

    Unless, of course, you really don’t believe it. Or unless, of course, you were really concerned that you’re not going to satisfy the judge.

    But of course, judgment wasn’t coming for centuries of slavery, segregation, the murder of 6 million Jews, the dropping of a bombs, and all of the other gross evils committed by mankind, especially in the name of God. But the one thing that will surely get his holy knickers in a twist will be two people getting a subtle marriage license and declaring their love in front of their friends, church, families, and community.

    You sure don’t seem to think much of your God, do you?

  • larry

    Because nobody ever has to give a flying crap what your religion says on any given subject. Least of all our laws. Its called religious freedom.

  • Marva

    God didn’t send world judgment for murder, segregation, slavery. Those who committed such crimes dealt with their own personal suffering. God will send world judgment when mankind begin to destroy his creation because it affects all form of life on his planet. Gays cannot reproduce unless they adopt or get inseminated… mankind is also altering the air, food , humans.. all of nature is being manipulated and destroyed.. So God is sending judgment and then he will come back when we least expect it and everything will be burned up and he will only spare the ones who live right and those who ask for forgiveness.

  • Larry

    “Those who committed such crimes dealt with their own personal suffering.”
    Most got away with it and died in their sleep fitfully under the notion that their acts were sanctioned by God. If god gave you a brain to use, I am sure he does not like people who return it to him with such low mileage.

  • Ben in Oakland

    Yup, honey. Slavepwners were positively grief stricken over owning other human beings and making them tons of money.

    And your God will commit a mass murder, which you condone. And you are absolutely certain that his judgment will spare you, bei aw you are not like those icky gays,

    You know! the icky gays who adopt the cast off, unwanted products of irresponsible heterosexual reproduction.

    You people are seriously deranged. Do you think you can arrange for the rapture right now? The rest of us need something better to occupy ourselves with than the savings of fundamentalists.

  • Ben in Oakland

    Sorry. iPad problems.

    RAVINGS of fundamentalists, thought savings will also work.

  • Abe The Magnificent

    You can almost hear the vibrating cross from here.

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