Why the culture war’s losers shouldn’t retreat from public life (COMMENTARY)

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A man watches the skyline of Manhattan as the Empire State Building is lit in rainbow colors during the celebration of the annual Gay Pride Parade in New York on June 28, 2015. Photo courtesy of REUTERS/Eduardo Munoz
*Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-LUPFER-COLUMN, originally transmitted on July 1, 2015.

A man watches the skyline of Manhattan as the Empire State Building is lit in rainbow colors during the celebration of the annual Gay Pride Parade in New York on June 28, 2015. Photo courtesy of REUTERS/Eduardo Munoz *Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-LUPFER-COLUMN, originally transmitted on July 1, 2015.

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(RNS) It is harmful to religion and to democracy when one group is ready to turn its back on civil society and another group is ready to push it.

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  • Larry

    If people want to be whinybabies and retreat from a society which refuses to give them undue privilege, so be it. Don’t let the door hit them on the way out.

    If these people showed a modicum of respect for those who did not share their beliefs, they would not be feeling so unwelcome. I have yet to see a single “social conservative” issue which did not involve purely sectarian motives, disdain for religious freedom and disdain for civil liberties.

  • ben in oakland

    And yet, we have people who post regularly on these very pages claiming that Christians should be in the world, not of it.

    Who to believe? Any true Christians out there who can explain it to Mr. Lupfer?

  • Ro Na

    Jesus did say you/we are the light of the world which is why we need to speak
    and preach Truth which many today don’t do or if they do they only talk about
    abortion/homosexuals. Premarital sex is a sin yet most in church still have sex
    before marriage then get married thinkin they covered it up but never Repent
    and agree premarital sex is wrong so that’s why when they get a divorce they
    go right back to havin premarital sex again because they never agreed sex
    outside of marriage is wrong! Ephesians 5:18 says don’t get drunk and also
    1 Corinthians 6:10 says that all drunkards go to hell including people who
    get drunk on a strong wine yet people get drunk like it’s no big deal cause
    it harldy gets confronted along with gambling,coveting/jealousy/ greed,pride,
    gossip,being mean/sharp tongues cause abortion/homosexuals get so much
    of the focus. All sin is wrong! 1 Corinthians 5,6 and 7 plus Romans 1:18-32
    make that very clear. Luke 13 says Repent or perish!

  • JR

    Most likely worse moral changes will come about due to this gay marriage legalization. Polygamists cannot be ignored, incestual acts that are not pro-creative cannot be ignored, etc. Eventually the tide will turn toward religious moral standards once the public becomes fed up with the overall debauchery it has brought upon itself.
    Parents must instill Religion and its ordered morality into their children with more intensity than they have over the past decades. Religion must be fearless in its fight against an atheistic view of the world, it’s shallowness and self-gratifying approach to life. All of us must respect what is law, but the law is not always good or healthy. These laws can be ignored as useless by anyone, and should be spoken against at every opportunity in the public square. Nazism lasted 12 years instead of the promised 1,000 years, so time will tell how long we have to tolerate irrational thought.

  • bqrq

    People who support gay marriage but cannot explain why it is morally righteous look to sexual perversion as their personal moral compass. They are pro-sodomy child molesters whom I do not allow to have contact with my family.

    People who support gay marriage do not endorse sodomy for their mothers, wives, daughters and members of their own family, but they are intent on pushing this craven depravity on other people’s sons in order to satisfy the appetites of homosexuals.

  • Ted

    Do you also believe white nationalists should “remain in pubic life” to continue promoting racism?

    Your entire argument is premised on the notion that being LGBT is either a choice, or that 10% of humanity has the God-given ability to express love and affection, but isn’t supposed to use it because it makes you feel icky.

    The first premise denies science. The second denies love, in service of your own petty ego. Neither is Christian, just Pharisaic.

    This article promotes hatred. This article promotes bigotry.

    Shame on you.

  • Ted

    Most evangelicals are Pharisaic cultists, desperately proof texting in search of a faith they do not actually have, to avoid examining their own profound and copious sins.

    When I see evangelicals begin to address their own pride, anger, lust, envy, greed, avarice, and sloth with 1/10th the energy they spend condemning a small minority for how we were born to love, I’ll believe they may be on the way to earning the name “Christian”.

    Until then … evangelicals have proved themselves to be the 21st Century Pharisees.

  • bqrq

    Ted – There are circumstances under which sodomy might be considered “good.” If your mother would have faithfully practiced sodomy then you might not be here today to push sodomy on other people’s children.

  • Greg1

    Ben Christians are called to evangelize the world. Each and every one of us will meet Jesus when we breathe our last. And for some, it will be too late.

  • Larry

    I guess you would know all about “good” sodomy since your mind never strays from the subject. You are such a closet case.

  • bqrq

    Larry,
    Do you sodomize your wife? If so, does she consider it normal?

  • Greg1

    JR, I not even going to respect this law. These five radicals would be more believable wearing bathrobes. At least then you could rationalize that they just woke up, and hadn’t had the chance to begin thinking straight. So, since the Left has shown us over and over again, how civil disobedience, public protests, shouting out loudly during speeches, ignoring state and federal laws, and the like, then I believe it is time to do the same. I am going to write my governor and state reps, stating in no uncertain terms that there is power in numbers, as the Left has shown us, and we need to defy this thing in a broad, coherent way. The Extreme Court has shown itself to be a court not of the written law, but only emotional law. So that gives each of us to follow our own emotions and consciences. I’d encourage everyone here to write their reps as well.

  • Larry

    Wouldn’t you like to know, you dirty pervert.

    I bet you wrote that post one handed with your pants around your knees. Waiting in baited breath for my response, so you can ‘bate to it. A description of what Larry does with his wife, in loving detail. Oh I bet that makes you so excited.

    I bet its all because internet porn blocked on the computer in your mom’s basement. You poor pathetic creature.

  • Larry

    JR, Greg1, its not like either of you have any form of appreciation for our democratic government, rule of law or civil liberties to begin with. So of course neither of you understand or appreciate it now.

    People like yourself are going to continue to waste money on huckster politicians who won’t do squat to further your reactionary, anti-democratic dictatorial agenda. So gullible.

  • bqrq

    Regarding his wife practicing sodomy, Larry said;
    “….Wouldn’t you like to know, you dirty pervert….”

    Like all gay marriage hypocrites, Larry objects to his own wife practicing sodomy, but he is totally devoted to pushing this evil and dangerous practice on other people’s sons. This illustrates why gay marriage is a form of legalized child molesting.

  • larry

    No, I just think that enabling porn-deprived perverts is not a role worth playing here. If you wanted to get your rocks off, you are better served in real time chat session sites. I know you would like to say I was objecting to acts with my missues, but we both know you were just fantasizing about it.

    It took you 20 minutes to respond to my post. We can all figure out what you were doing after reading it. One handed. You dirty dirty boy.

    Of course the shame of ‘release’ had to be expressed with that phony indignation we expect from you. Something to assuage the guilt of your fantasies about me and my wife. The sin of “onanism” that you had to purge in public

    bqrq, do you realize that device in your mom’s night stand is not a back massager?

  • Christians are going underground. This has been happening for a long time. It was this was for the early Church, and it is nothing new. Hollywood, Washington DC, and the major media outlets are extremely hostile to born again Christians. I don’t see this changing any time soon. Christians meet in homes (like the early church) in small groups and fellowships, and in many such ways apart from any type of state or government interference. We continue to fellowship and worship God. We continue to preach the gospel to a spiritually needy world, and many continue to respond and turn away from sin and receive Christ as Savior and Lord. As Paul wrote: “Be reconciled to God”.. We can only have peace with The Father through faith in Jesus Christ His Son. Receive Him as Savior and Lord, and know the peace of God and His promise of eternal life. God Bless

  • Be Brave

    Ted,

    What you say you want to see you never will because you won’t step foot into a Church. The horrid guilt you do anything to hide will be exposed from the inside out.

    In other words, you represent the classic liar.

  • Larry

    As the old song goes, “how can we miss you if you won’t go away?”

  • Be Brave

    It’s interesting that an anti-Christ such as you cannot in any way see how degenerate you actually are. Everything about a person like you and Larry and the other little Christian-bashers that need to torment Christians, just make the pages of the New Testament come alive. But in all of the evil places. There is no doubt that the spirit that drives you was in the Romans that squealed with delight as Christians went to the deaths in the arena.

    No doubt.

  • Ted

    LOL. I was in my church 30 minutes ago, installing some fans because we’re in a massive heat wave. Heading back in a few for Vespers.

    Not evangelical, though. Jesus Christ warned us against Pharisees.

  • Greg1

    Actually I’ve come to admire the way the Left operates, and think it is time for all of us to join the protest club, of course with a very different agenda.

  • Ted

    It’s funny watching Evangelicals get all whiny about “persecution”.

    LGBT people have been beaten, killed, or “cured” by torture, all upon discovery, for 1,000 years. And now that we are finally, after a millennium, coming to be treated in some parts of the world as equal human beings, the Pharisees are crying “ewwww, stop persecuting me, waaahhhhh!!!”

    This article is really sad, for it’s utter vanity and complete lack of perspective on actual suffering and pain.

  • Be Brave

    Larry,

    If anyone knows what huckster politicians are, it’s people that hail from your morality. You need them to hide behind.

    Your vitriol towards Christians would be laughable if there wasn’t such carnage attached to it. But not ill that is embraced by Christians, oh no, it is the secularized youth your worldviews crushes that makes your evil all too lethal. I’ve never yet heard of a teen enter into a deep depression or attempt suicide after attending a contemporary Christian music festival or “affirming” Evangelical Christian culture.

    But what is painfully observable, is that you and your side can’t even see the horrors you support.

    The blind into a pit.

    The New Testament is so impressive. How did it know you were coming centuries before you were born.

  • Be Brave

    10% ????

    That lie doesn’t even pass muster at the HRC. Even as propaganda your pals

    Looking at the animals in nature – the unreasoning beasts – that so many “LGBT’s” want us to compare their behavior to and you see the odds are stacked incredibly high against the lunacy you tried to employ. But it does point a light on the fact that “gay marriage” is about promoting and validating homosexual sexual behavior and nothing else. And of course. It is the sex acts that literally defines the gay community.

  • Ro Na

    Matthew 7:13-23.

  • bqrq

    Regarding his wife practicing sodomy, Larry said;
    “….Wouldn’t you like to know, you dirty pervert….”

    Notice how it is “perverted” for his own family but somehow “normal” for other families.

  • Eric

    JR, sorry, no apocalypse, not now. You’ll have to find something else to do with your boring, mundane middle class American consumerist life.

  • Eric

    b, last warning: get the help you need. now.

  • Doc Anthony

    Guess what, Larry? The Bible-believing Christians aren’t going anywhere. We’ll still be here for you and your friends.

    You see, the Supremes did repeal freedom of religion, but they FORGOT to repeal freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. So don’t look for the Gay Marriage Cult to get a free ride in the public marketplace of ideas. That AIN’T happening, dude!

    Look for many Christians to keep on saying out loud, “God loves everybody, but this gay marriage mess is 100-octane WRONG.” Look for them to continue providing caring, change-oriented resources and support to same-sex-attracted people who are looking for a way out.

    And by the way, the Supremes forgot to repeal the Bible too. So look for plenty of life-changing Bible texts and promises like 1 Cor 6:9-11 and 1 Cor. 10:13 to be put on the online table. We’re NOT done yet, Jack!

  • bqrq

    Eric,
    I appreciate your concern. Honestly, we may be making some progress in helping Larry and others like him understand the grave consequences of gay sex and how it harms innocent children and their families. I hope this helps. Have a good evening.

  • Doc Anthony

    “Apocalypse”? Probably not, at least in terms of the book of Revelation.

    Catastrophic Divine Judgment, as in Sodom? Very distinct possibility — and soon. America may well get what America is hankering for.

    Hope America enjoys it — or survives it — when it arrives. It”s coming.

  • Doc Anthony

    LGBT is a choice. No joke.

    Just ask the wife of New York City’s current mayor. She doesn’t even give God or Jesus the credit for it; she simply met Bill DeBlasio and all her years of open lesbian activism flew right out the bedroom window. ALL of it. Finito.

    If it could happen to her, it could happen to anyone. A series of choices gets you into the gay lifestyle, and a series of choices can get you outta there. It’s a choice.

    Meanwhile, don’t look for Christians to roll over and play dead around here. The Supremes had their turn at bat (and obviously messed it up). Therefore….

    It’s OUR turn now,
    Something’s gonna change,
    We’re gonna bind the devil at every hand,
    By the power of Jesus’ name!
    Well, it’s OUR turn now,
    Think it no surprise,
    When the gates of Hell come crashing down,
    And you begin to see the Church arise!

    — Carman, “Our Turn Now”, 1991

  • Greg J

    @ ben “Be in the world not of it” some of the things it means to me.
    To be fair and honest in my statements. Statements like “Ben I understand the marriage relationship in heterosexual context and I will struggle to understand it in a same sex context. Or like “Ben I’m not really sure how exactly your marriage is a threat to mine or my family but I know who would like to see yours destroyed”. Here’s another ” Ben I think maybe my actions and attitudes are the greatest threats to my marriage and family, not yours!
    Being in the world not of makes me ask questions like. If the supreme court has redefined marriage does this mean I’m going to get a list in the mail telling what changes I have to make? In the world not of affects my opinion like this. I don’t see ben in Oakland as the enemy. If that opinion doesn’t offend ben but offends God then God may be too thin skinned to deal with my sin. Last being in the world not of leads me to have thick skin, hopefully like my God…

  • @BB,

    “you represent the classic liar…”

    Jesus was the liar.

    In several instances Jesus is reported to have said things would happen which did not happen – thousands of books have written to explain these discrepancies:‬

    Jesus said,
    “‘Go to the festival yourselves. I am not going to this festival, for my time has not yet fully come.’ After saying this, he remained in Galilee. But after his brothers had gone to the festival, then he also went, not publicly but as it were in private” (John 7.8-10).‬

    Jesus is saying one thing and doing another. He LIED!

    In Luke 23:43 Jesus said to the thief,‬
    ‪”Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.”‬
    WRONG! Jesus supposedly lay dead in the tomb for three days. Another lie.

    “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
    ‬(Matt. 24:35)
    Liar. Did Jesus not know Aramaic would disappear? His original words are all lost.

    Jesus lied.

  • Susan

    Baloney, Doc. You aren’t here for anyone other than yourself.

    So get over your pompous self already and stop inflicting your superstitions on the rest of us!

  • Susan

    Greg1, sorry to bring some hard truth to you but your god doesn’t actually exist.

  • Susan

    Greg, I’m a Conservative with a capital “C” and I sure don’t want your idiocy on my side! Get lost.

  • Greg1

    That is what everyone said until they met him, especially problematic priests.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VFE8ToVatI

  • Greg1

    Susan, I am not a conservative, but a person of Faith. And we need to be the light of the world when it begins to darken (Matt 5:14-15).

  • Susan

    Ted, you have no idea who the Pharisees really were. Their depiction in the “New Testament” is completely distorted and inaccurate. They were not what you think they were.

    I don’t have the time right now to explain it further. RNS needs to have Amy Jill Levine or someone else explain who the Pharisees were. It’s the biggest misperception about Judaism that Christians have.

  • Susan

    This is for Ted: Quit picking on the Pharisees by Amy Jill Levine, a “New Testament” professor at Vanderbuilt U.

    We are heirs of two millennia of negative stereotypes of Pharisees and, by extension, of Jews. until we address these fundamental errors, bad history and bad theology will continue. In this interpretation, the Pharisees appear to epitomize everything antithetical to an ethos of justice and peace. For example, in a 2009 God’s Politics blog post, we read that the “Pharisees thought Jesus was mak- ing himself unclean by eating with sinners in the house of a tax collector (Matthew 9:9- 13).” We read elsewhere that Pharisees found it offensive that he would dine with “sinners” and outcasts. Tax collectors were not outcast, and they did not represent ritual impurity. Tax collectors were those who violated com- munity welfare: They took from the poor and they gave to Rome.

  • Susan

    Sorry, I don’t have time right now to cut and paste the entire article since it would take several posts, but it is in the March 2015 edition of Sojourners. I might paste the entire article tonight.

  • Paraphrase of conservative Christianists: Waaah waaah waah, we’re not in charge any more! Waaah waaah waah, not everyone likes us. Waaah waaah waah, but we were supposed to get our way all the time! Waaah waaah waah, we’re being slaughtered in the streets! Waaah waaah waah, no we just made that last part up because it makes us feel better to be martyrs for Jesus. Waaah waaah waah, we’re going to snivel and cry and whine and complain until everyone does our bidding once more. Waaah waaah waah, waaah waaah waah!

  • Be Brave

    Larry,

    You don’t even recognize Christians as you interact with them. You are purely blind to them as we write back and forth. They have been gone from your soul since whenever it was it became corrupted.

  • Be Brave

    1000-years?

    LGBT’s used to rule the earth as priests and priestesses. Antinous was made a god by his “husband” Hadrian. The proof of which is still in existence today. “Gay Pride” is just a neologism of ancient wickedness.

    We are just seeing the rise of demons doing what they do. Establishing wickedness as a culture.

    “And it is not out of place, we think, to mention here Antinous, who was alive but lately, and whom all were prompt, through fear, to worship as a god, though they knew both who he was and what was his origin.
    – Justin Martyr

    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html

    Ah yes, how the stupid and dumbed down no little of history. And purposely so.

    “We” are just returning to the vomit of licentiousness and perversion elevated to hero status.

    For, “there is nothing new under the sun.”

    Including perverted democracies.

  • Be Brave

    uh-oh,

    One more Mud Pie person asserts their hate and demands it be facts?

    The Logos makes more scientific and mathematical sense than nothing times 0 = the universe. Atheism proven as idiocy or some kind of mental illness. Or both. It depends on how vocal the atheist is you deal with.

    The cagey ones just shut up and design and build weapons of mass destruction or some other science derived poison that endangers mankind. Of course while the “scientist (atheist of course right?)” makes a comfortable life for herself or himself.

    Mud Pie People. So confused and yet so haughty.

    Of course.

  • Larry

    It’s OUR turn now. Tomorrow belongs to me!
    [Its a musical theater reference, Doc. You probably wouldn’t get it]
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNMVMNmrqJ

    🙂

  • Larry

    bqrq, although I am honored that you chose to masturbate to fantasies involving me and my wife engaging in sodomy, it is really inappropriate on this board. 🙂

  • Ted

    Pharisees are those who worship rules rather than love God and their neighbor, missing the forest for the trees. Christ’s message on this is clear. And I am much more interested in Christ’s message than Hebrew anthropology.

  • Ted

    Science disagrees. Not that evangelicals care for science (much less understand it).

  • Ted

    Susan,

    Christ’s message about Pharisees is clear, and his message is what I am speaking to, not Hebrew anthropology.

  • Ted

    I am sure evangelicals will be happy for you to distort Matthew 23 however you can. They need the political cover.

  • Ted

    “Today, traditionalist Christians remain the largest religious group in the freest nation on earth.”

    Mr. Lupfer, you should spend some time with the Pew Trust research on religion. There are far less Pharisaic evangelicals like you than you think, and your kind are generationally passing away with few children following.

    Folks like you are simply loud, due to your lack of humility before the simplicity of Christs’s message to love God and our neighbor.

  • Garson Abuita

    Ted, the “Pharisees” were the spiritual ancestors of modern Judaism. All rabbinic legal and homiletic commentary on the Torah, from Jesus’s contemporaries to modern times, is traced back to these individuals whom the Gospels paint as children of the devil. It has nothing to do with “Hebrew anthropology,” it has everything to do with you buying into a stereotype that has caused 2,000 years of strife.

  • MarkE

    Ro Na -right back at ya!

  • Jack

    “Benedict’s communities formed monasteries and kept the light of faith burning through the surrounding cultural darkness…”

    What the author quite cleverly forgot to mention was that the reason the culture was so miserably dark to begin with was because of the poisonous influence of Christian teachings and beliefs, which sent Europe into an anti-intellectual free-fall for centuries – you know, much like the evangelical havens of contemporary Red State Amurka, with their low wage jobs, contempt for education and science, morbid obesity, diabetes, high crime rates, high divorce rates, utter lack of upward mobility, etc.
    If there’s a fundamentalist/evangelical church on every corner, the evidence shows pretty clearly that there’s little light to behold.

  • Ro Na

    MarkE- Amen! Preaching against sin/telling people the Truth is not being a Pharisee so people need to stop twisting Scripture and get
    the facts straight. Many people today don’t want to Repent so they
    try to twist the Truth/ justify their sin which Bible warns us not to do!
    Bible says Repent and believe Gospel to be saved! We must Repent!

  • Greg

    It takes two to “coexist.” The forces of “eroticized liberty” do not want to coexist. They want to conquer, tax, drive faithful religious people from the light of day and jail the more insistent ones. How about you correctly identify the aggressor here, then we can talk about solutions.

  • Ben in Oakland

    You’re right, Greg.

    something about calling out “Lord, Lord” and someone no longer important saying “Get away from me. I never knew you.”

  • Ben in Oakland

    It’s interesting that an anti-Christ such as you cannot in any way see how degenerate you actually are. Everything about a person like you and Doc and the other little Christian gay bashers that that think we have the slightest desire to torment so-called Christians, just make the pages of the New Testament come alive. But in all of the evil places. There is no doubt that the spirit that drives you was in the Christians that squealed with delight as gay men, witches and heretics went to the deaths in the in the flames.

    No doubt.

  • Ben in Oakland

    So centuries of jails and imprisonment, murders and executions, firings and destroyed careers, people losing their families just never happened.

    listen to yourself and all of the other so-=called Christian whiners here. we’re not the ones the declared the culture wars. we’re not the ones that called us threats to everything good and holy. We’re not the ones who started vicious political campaigns.

    Oh, I forgot. Christians aren’t perfect. some of them are imperfect but good, and some are total a-holes.

  • ben in oakland

    Someday, Greg, you’ll just admit the truth, and stop hiding behind faqith. You don’t like gay people.

    I went to Pride in San Francisco. There were over a million people there. What was surprisingly absent was religion of the sort practiced by the losers of the culture war. Religion was there, certainly: denominations and churches proclaiming God’s love and inclusion for all. With one small exception, a man who hates Catholics and gay people equally, no one was “hating on” the religionists, or even much cared that they exist, despite the hatred, lies, and the political campaigns directed against us. No one was screaming “Those damned Christians.” Nobody was threatening lawsuits, demanding churches marry them, urging persecution of Christians. None of it. Despite bogus claims of harm to faith, so-called Christians were conspicuous in their complete absence.

    Frankly, you’re simply not as relevant or important as you imagine yourselves to be. Hate is strong, but love is…

  • JR

    Susan, that big “C” you mention is not for “Conservative”, right?

  • JR

    Oh Erica, what could be more exciting than feeling superior to you.? So easy, like crushing an ant with my fingertip.

  • And you know this how,Susan?

  • dmj76

    Max
    Do you make a distinction between wrong and lying?

  • Shawnie5

    And yet you can’t tear yourself away away…

  • dmm,

    When an “All Knowing” god says something which turns out to be wrong he is either lying or he isn’t All-knowing to begin with.

    Take your pick. Jesus either lied or he isn’t all-knowing.

    So Jesus is either a Lying God or he is no god at all.

  • JR

    I hate to imagine just how those million people were celebrating. Caligula’s reign as Emperor comes to mind.

  • ben in oakland

    Perhaps you should attend, rather than making judgments form ignorance.

  • there is no evidence for the existence of God. Claims without evidence can be dismissed without them as well.

  • Susan

    Ted, if you don’t understand who the Pharisees were, you can’t understand Jesus’s message about the Pharisees. This has nothing to do with anthropology. It has to do with centuries of hatred, persecution and anti-Judaism from the Christian church based on the what they thought the Pharisees were. Jesus was actually in the Pharasaic tradition of Hillel.

  • Susan

    Greg1 and Ted,
    Far too often for Christians, Jesus is seen as the ticket to heaven. You believe in him and you get to heaven, and the most important thing he did is defeat sin and defeat death. So Christianity becomes a matter of belief.

    But recognizing Jesus within his Jewish context means recognizing his enormous concern for how people relate to each other on a day-to-day basis. The issue for him is not, “Here’s what you need to believe in order to get into heaven.” The issue is, “Here’s what you need to do in order to have one foot in the kingdom of heaven. Here’s what you need to do because here’s what God wants you to do, and here’s what your tradition calls you to do.”

    It is his Judaism that associates love of God with love of neighbor; his Judaism emphasizes what we call the golden rule, also found in a number of different religious traditions. That’s why he talks to people about reconciliation and says that human interaction is more important than ritual. Saving a life…

  • Susan

    Continued:

    SAVING A LIFE ALWAYS TRUMPS ANY LAW OF THE TORAH FOR JEWS.

    Jesus teaches people how to live, how to act. That’s the Jewish Jesus, and that too often drops out. It’s part of the problem, by the way, with the creeds. If you go straight from Jesus being born to being crucified, you’re missing a whole lot.

  • Susan

    Ted, I have posted this elsewhere, but it is worth repeating. Pharisees believed that saving a life trumps the law of Torah. They did not worship rules above all else.

  • Susan, indeed Jesus was Jewish and in one sense you can say that He always will be, as the promised Son of the line of David who will reign forever as King of Kings. Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself are indeed, the very greatest of commandments. If we love God then we will receive His Son as Savior and Messiah. If we reject God’s only provision for salvation then where does that leave us, and what does that say about us loving and obeying God? Jesus came in reference to sin the first time. This was His very purpose; to reconcile us to God the Father. Jesus will return to take possession of His Kingdom and to begin His promised reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Receive Him as Savior and Lord and you will know God’s peace and joy and goodness in your life. God Bless Shalom

  • Susan

    Mark, Jews don’t believe in original sin, so we don’t need Jesus to save us from that.

    “to love God with all your hearth and soul,,,” comes from Deuteronomy.

    I don’t believe that Jesus is God’s only provision for salvation. I think God is my salvation and I don’t need another. Nor do I need Jesus to know God’s peace, joy and goodness in my life.

    Don’t say “God bless and shalom” when you don’t really mean it, because if you did, you would accept the fact that I don’t need Jesus. There are different ways to God. If I can accept that Jesus works for you, why you can’t accept that I don’t need Jesus? Jesus is not the only way. You can love God without accepting Jesus. I am talking about Jews specifically, because there are centuries of persecution, hatred and anti-Judaism that Christianity has to answer for. Christians need to learn to accept Jews as they are.

  • Susan

    Well, back to the topic! The Supreme Court’s job is to uphold the CONSTITUTION. It is is not to uphold anyone’s version of the Bible.

    Bqrq, you know homosexuals and they are a part of your family, even if you don’t know it.

  • Susan

    Ted, we actually agree that Gay marriage should be legal. It’s just your method of supporting it that disturbs me. Have you nothing to say in response to my posts?

  • Cranmer

    Christians talking about persecution for their objection to marriage equality do two things that I can imagine grieve Our Lord tremendously: 1) they mistake the loss of their cultural privilege in the US and other Western nations as ‘persecution,’ thus dishonoring the martyrs who lived under real persecution and gave their life for the faith. 2) They also convenient forget how much blood and terror has been committed by Christians agains LGBTQ persons. Let’s get real and stop repeating lies. As someone said — you don’t want to bake a cake for a gay marriage, but did the same beliefs stop you when the divorced wanted a cake for their 2nd marriage?

    It is also shameful of the article’s author, Mr. Lupfer to write “…inaugurated a new era in which non-LGBT-affirming believers will be fined, harassed, persecuted and even criminalized.” This is irresponsible journalism.

  • Roland

    I keep seeing references to Civil Disobedience. …..disobedience against What? Are you going to assume Fred Phelps Westboro Church mantle now that he dines with Luciferand pickett Gay Wedding Ceremonies????

    Talk about marginalizing Christiany even more…..

  • Roland

    Quick!!!!…..Call the Waaahhmbulance!!!

  • Roland

    The solution is “You Stay On Your Side Of The Bed And I’ll Stay On Mine” and if I want to eat Pizza And Crackers in bed so be it.