• Galatians

    Whether one is morally shocked or not does not really matter. Because, some people can be born without a conscience.

    When the action of people affect other human beings or society as a whole or the environment in general it really matters.

  • Larry

    A little division is not a bad thing. We should be more worried about acting in unity. Usually that means people are not thinking hard enough or too scared to show a little bit of critical thinking. If you want national agreement, you are better served in a dictatorship. A democratic nation thrives on disunity. Of letting voices be heard and arguments made. Being forced by the system to justify laws with rational and secular purposes.

    The whiners will continue to whine. But there is no reason to take their tantrums seriously. Time is not on their side, just as it was not on the side of those who supported other forms of discrimination under color of law.

    In 20 years the religious bigots will go through a revisionist phase and try to take credit for the efforts by affirming churches. Just like they try to do with the civil rights movement. Lying comes easy to those who think God excuses any bad behavior on their part.

  • Doc Anthony

    People can say, “Whose God? Whose opinion of God’s will shall we follow, for there are so many?”.

    And that stuff might work with other humans. But does that excuse work with God?

    Doesn’t look that way in the Bible. Did Sodom, Gomorrah, Canaan, or Israel get a permanent free pass on their mess? No they didn’t? Then why does America expect to receive one? God doesn’t play favorites.

    Ben Franklin and Abe Lincoln tried to warn this nation about “forgetting God.” But we don’t wanna hear that stuff anymore. We want gay marriage and everything else from coast to coast. So national **consequences** will be coming down the road, and probably sooner than later !!

  • Tom LaBeouf

    Nobody is born without a ‘conscience’. Some people have a ‘seared conscience’. An interviewer asked Rachel Dolezal (woman who claims she is black), “is it true that your parents are white?” She gives a blank stare and when the question was repeated, she said she did not understand the question. That right there is ‘seared conscience’. You know right from wrong, truth from lie and yet you lie – a bold-faced lie at that. A bold-faced lie is ‘seared conscience’.

  • Gloria

    Sociopaths, I believe, have no conscience.

  • Gloria

    One day, and we know what day that is. EVERY man, woman and child will stand before God. May God have mercy on those five justices.

  • Barry the Baptist

    What day is it?

    Also, I don’t think your god really cares about your thoughts on mercy.

  • Ben in oakland

    Why do I think that you really don’t want God to have mercy on those five justices? Why do I think that you really don’t want God to have mercy on gay people? And most important of all, will God have mercy on the people that ordered the slaughter of the American Indians, the people who used their bibles as a justification for slavery and segregation? Will God have mercy on the people who post on these very pages, and call themselves real Christians, who slander and revile gay people with easily disprovable lies, and then use the lies they just told themselves to harm gay people who haven’t harmed them?

    Somehow, I think you’re forgetting your own rationale for opposing gay marriage. Marriage is supposed to be a religious institution. The judges didn’t rule on a religious institution, they ruled on civil law.

    The justices have repeatedly ruled for religious freedom, including the freedom to reject the notion that Jesus died for your sins. Why doesn’t that upset you?

  • Rob

    Religious people should not stress out too much. As we’ve raced towards a time when LGBTQ people can live openly in our society it has become clear that LGBTQ people treat religious fundamentalists a lot better than religious fundamentalists have treated LGBTQ people.

  • Greg1

    “How in the world do we move forward together?” We do not. Just as heaven and hell are divided, so is this decree from the Extreme Court. They are not worthy of dignity or respect.

  • Actually, Tom there are many cases where both parents are “White” & the couple has a “Colored” baby. The genes can skip many generations & suddenly they are activated in favor of an African American relative. Look at the slaves that were abused sexually by their “White”owners. I put parenthesis around white because no one is really white with the exception of Albinos.

  • Ro Na

    Bible is clear the gate is narrow so people who claim to be Christian yet still
    practice sin/any sin which includes getting drunk in any form becasue Jesus
    made a diluted new wine for a symbolic reason not to get drunk! Bible also
    says don’t get drunk on strong wine and plus Ephesians 5:18 says don’t get
    drunk and 1 Corinthians 6:10 says all drunkards go to hell so all sin is wrong!
    Being mean/sharp tongues,gossip,gambling,premarital sex are all also wrong!
    1 Corinthisns 5,6 and 7 plus Romans 1:18-32 also Matthew 7:13-23 all need
    to be taught as well. Luke 13 says to Repent or perish! We all must Repent!

  • Well Doc, consequences can be positive if we follow the New Covenant instead of the Old Testament. Jesus said, “I am the Way!” Jesus condemns no one. He is our example of how humans can get along with love, even if we disagree with one another. The Old Testament is old ways. Look to the New because it is clear what Jesus preached.

  • Right on!☺️❤️

  • Good grief!? Lighten up already! Life is too short to waste it on condemning & judging other people. Just take care of your side of the street. You aren’t in charge-God is!❤️

  • Ro Na

    Correction above. Bible is clear the gate is narrow so people who practice
    sin are all wrong/all sins are wrong! We all need to and we all must Repent!
    Bible says Repent and believe the Gospel to be saved! We all must Repent!

  • Ro Na

    Kathyrne-You need to read the whole Bible not just part. Bible says if anyone comes to you and preach/teaches something different let that
    person be eternally condemned so read all of the Bible not just a part.

  • Fran

    Greg1,

    So, when Jesus gave us a model prayer to follow, that we should ask for God’s will to be done in heaven, as well as on earth (Matthew 6:10); what IS God’s WILL for the EARTH according to your beliefs?

    Just curious since you only mention heaven and hell as man’s only choices after death and/or judgment.

    Is hell (place of eternal torment) God’s will for earth, with no one left to take care of the earth, its animals, and everything else on it?

  • Susan

    Well, I’m Jewish and I don’t follow The “New Testament” or the “New Covenant.” Are you saying that Jews are not capable of being loving? Jews have been interpreting the Hebrew Bible for centuries. No one follows it literally, not even the most Ultra-Orthodox. We have grown and continued to evolve and we haven’t needed the “New Testament” to do it. This is classic anti-Judaism. I don’t think it is so clear what Jesus preached. I find many passages in the “New Testament” to be hateful to Jews.

  • Ted

    There is a false equivalency when someone’s conscience is shocked by denial of their dignity and equality, and someone else is “shocked” that they expect any.

    This article seems aimed at normalizing bigotry as a simple matter of conscience.

  • larry

    I think they brought that up in the films “Me, Myself & Irene” as well as “Mandingo” 🙂

  • This is a problem for many liberal Christians. They are far too gun shy to criticize the ridiculous efforts of their conservative brethren. They tend to be very defensive when outsiders lump them in with fundamentalists. But they are nowhere to be heard when criticism of fundamentalists is needed.

  • Greg1

    Susan the Old Covenant will always be a path to heaven for those who are Jewish. Our Lord Jesus was Jewish, and only fulfilled the Old Covenant, but you are not obligated to follow the Christian way of life (Read Romans 11).

  • Greg1

    Fran, when all is complete on this earth, our Lord will come in Glory at a time we don’t expect, as is mentioned in many places (1Thess 4:16…, 2Pet.3:8, Revelation 16:13-16: ). At that point heaven and earth will unite, and all the souls of all those who have ever lived, will be raised up and given glorified bodies; these will reflect our lives (1Cor..15:12-13, 21, 42), and each person will be Judged with finality (Matthew 25: 31-46), either heaven, or hell. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the soul at baptism (Col. 2:12-13, 3:1), the second resurrection is the resurrection of the body at the end of time (John 6:54 ), the first death is the death of the body (Matt 8:22), the second death, is the death of the soul in eternal hell (Luke 9:60, Rev. 21:8). As for the earth, it will be consumed by fire (2Peter 3:10-11), and in its place there will be a new eternal heaven where we live in His Presence (2Peter 3:13-14) forever (2Cor 5:1, John 14:2). That is the Catholic Faith.

  • Susan

    Greg1, I wasn’t talking about a path to heaven. I was talking about what Judaism has to say about living life in a loving way is a part of Judaism and has been for centuries. That one doesn’t need to believe in Jesus to be loving and forgiving.

  • Greg1

    Susan, you are correct. But forgiveness is an act of the will, which is enlightened by God Almighty. Those who’ve sworn allegiance to the Devil, or those who adamantly reject God, are incapable of true forgiveness; that is, until they ask for divine help to do so.

  • Fran

    You did not mention a “new earth” as well as a new heaven that we are awaiting according to God’s promise, and in both of these, righteousness will dwell (2 Peter 3:13. We are also promised the earth will last forever (Ecclesiastes 1:4; Psalm 104:5).

    So God made a mistake or changed his mind when he pronounced man’s purpose was to fill the earth and subdue it and have all the animals in subjection to man (Gen. 3:28)?

    God also promised to never again bring a worldwide flood (Gen. 3:12-16) to put an end to wicked ones. WHY would God promise that to man if he was going to destroy the entire earth anyway?

    2 Peter 2:5 says: “and he (God) did not hold back from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a deluge upon a WORLD of UNGODLY PEOPLE.”

    Thus, God’s kingdom WILL soon put an end to all wicked ones so only meek, like Noah, can inherit a “cleansed” new earth (Matt. 5:5; Isaiah 11:4; Psalm…

  • Fran

    Psalm 37:10,11, 29).

  • Doc Anthony

    Of course, if liberals try to criticize fundamentalists on issues like gay marriage, conservatives can simply go the Bible and show the liberal Christians exactly where they are messing up, and then that’s the end of the liberal shpiel.

    So most liberals don’t want to get into that situation, because there’s only one Bible, it IS clear and decisive on that topic, and liberal Christians are skating on thin ice already. Libbies know they’re on the 100-octane wrong side of the Bible regarding gay marriage, and don’t want to be reminded publicly.

    Furthermore, even though the gay activists are winning the game, their victory is NOT translating into increased popularity for liberal Christians, that’s for sure. The gay activists were / are just using them as pawns.

    So, taken together, that’s why “the liberals are nowhere to be heard when criticism of fundamentalists is needed.” Criticism is a two-way street.

  • Greg1

    Fran, I believe I answered those questions of yours in the “Ten Commandments Monument” blog. But yes, in 2Peter Chapter 3, it is clear that as once God cleansed the earth with water, he would do so again with finality by fire. But you must remember that 2Peter 3, and Revelation 21, utilize figurative language. The main point is that God’s Justice and Glory will be realized in the end, by many great and cataclysmic events, events that will wake up the world. When Scripture speaks of a new heavens and a new earth, it means that all will be transformed to glorify God. And it is not really about a place, but rather a state of being. Similar language is used In Isaiah 24. In the end, though, there will only be heaven and hell; Matthew 25:46 is clear on that. As to whether or not there will still be a material world, well I’m not sure that will really matter, as our home is with God Almighty (2Cor 5:8, John 14:2).

  • Greg1

    And lastly the figurative language of the 144,000 simply means that heaven is comprised of those from both Old and New Covenants. In Revelation 7 & 14 we see mentioned 144,000. In Chapter 7 it refers to the Twelve Tribes, but in 14 it alludes to the first fruits of the Lamb. Then we see in Rev 21:12 &14 that the heavenly city is the home of those from both the Old and New Covenants (12 Tribes, 12 Apostles). Again this is figurative language. It is saying that all are invited to the Feast. The 12 Tribes x 12 Apostles x 1000 equals 144,000, symbolic for a a huge number of people that no one can even count (Rev 7:9), that is the entire number saved by the Plan of Salvation. Anyway please read my other responses, and we can discuss further. BTW, ever wonder what brings on the end? In other words, what is the Father’s reason for bringing all to an end? Catherine Emmerich once said that when the number of the saved souls equals the number of fallen angels, its over.

  • Shawnie5

    You nailed it, Doc. That is exactly why despite all the hot air blowing over at the Vines thread, no one is touching the actual scriptural/historical issues on the subject. Most simply don’t know the material (and don’t want to know it), and those that do know it also know that they have no case.

  • dmj76

    Please explain why gay sex is worse than theft or murder or looking at a non-wife with lust. Are these not all mortal sins from the Church’s point of view?

  • Fran

    Greg1,

    The explanation of 2 Peter 3:7,10 and Rev. 21:1 must agree with the context and the rest of the Bible.

    If those texts mean that the literal earth is to be consumed by fire, then the literal heavens (the stars and other heavenly bodies) are also to be destroyed by fire. Such a view conflicts with the assurances contained at Matthew 6:10, Psalm 37:29 and 104:5, as well as Prov. 2:21,22. Besides, what effect would fire have on the already intensely hot hot and stars?

    At Genesis 11:1, 1 Kings 2:1,2, 1 Chron. 16:31, and Psalm 96:1, the term “earth,” is used in a figurative sense, referring to mankind or human society. So, does this apply to 2 Peter 3:7,10 and Rev. 21:1?

    2 Peter, 3:7 brings out the ones to be destroyed are “ungodly men.” That “earth” here refers to wicked human society fully agrees with the rest of the Bible. The symbolic “earth,” or wicked human society, will be exposed, showing them worthy of complete destruction, symbolized by fire.

  • Fran

    The wicked society of humans is also the “first earth” at Rev. 21:1. Jesus’ expression at Luke 21:33 (“heaven and earth will pass away, but …”) must be understood in light of Luke 16:17 (“it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than…”), both of which emphasize the impossibility of it taking place. (Also see Matt. 5:18).

    I notice you did not reply to Genesis 1:28, regarding God’s purpose for man (filling the earth and subduing it); nor the rainbow covenant at Genesis 9:12;16; nor the fact that the earth will remain forever (Eccl. 1:4; Psalm 104:5). In addition, Isaiah 45:8 indicates God did not make the earth for nothing, but to be inhabited. Psalm 115:16 says the heavens belong to God, but the earth he has given to the sons of man.

    Rev. 21:3,4 definitely is literal since the ransom sacrifice of Jesus will put an end to human sins and human death. Jehovah God, his son, Jesus, all angels, and those who will rule with Jesus do not sin or face death.

  • Fran

    What other proof that earth will not literally be destroyed? Micah 4:3 says: “The Lord will mediate between peoples and will settle disputes between strong nations far away. They will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will no longer fight against nation, nor train for war anymore. Everyone will live in peace and prosperity, enjoying their own grapevines and fig trees, for there will be nothing to fear. The Lord of Heaven’s Armies has made this promise.” This definitely applies only to mankind on earth. We are the only ones who practice war and eat food!

    During Jesus’ millennial rule over man on earth, the animal kingdom on earth will be at peace with one another (Isaiah 11:6-9); a child can play upon the hole of a cobra; and the earth will be filled with knowledge of God (verse 9), not destroyed. Rev. 11:18 says: “…It is time to destroy all who have caused destruction on the earth,” which is literal.

  • “We wish we had an omniscient, maybe even omnipotent umpire who would resolve everything so that everyone would just know the truth.”

    No. Most of us don’t wish for any such thing.

    The idea that “everyone must be made to know the truth” is exactly why religion is dangerous nonsense – and it is also why our Constitution is brilliant.

    Christians can keep going to church and keep up the bigotry against gays.
    And the rest of us can skip church, include gays however we wish and disparage all religious nonsense wherever it rears its ugliness.

  • @Greg1,

    “forgiveness is an act of the will, which is enlightened by God Almighty.”

    Nonsense.
    If I forgive someone I do it myself of my own decision – gods have nothing to do with it.

    And who exactly is ‘swearing allegiance’ to the devil? And what is ‘divine forgiveness’?

  • God

    Gloria, you will one day stand before me as well. Not so sure I will have mercy on you.

  • Larry

    Whatever makes you feel better. Fundies always like to pretend they are the only real Christians. Your sectarian sniping is the same old garbage. The silly assumption that people outside of your little circle take your religious interpretations seriously.

    I guess AtheistMax is right. No need to show respect for Christians at all. The fundies don’t do a thing to earn it and the liberals are too feckless to bother acknowledging.

  • Jack

    Nice gig — getting paid to say the obvious — that people who disagree on fundamental things are less likely to get along, but it would be nice if they did anyway.

    Yup, and 2 and 2 make 4 and this is a sentence.

  • God

    I got that right. Well OK I always do.

  • Bob

    Since we’ve got Fran and Greg1 dumping bible bile on us by the truckload, let’s check out more quotes from that Christian book of nasty:
    Numbers 31:17-18
    17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
    Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
    1 Timothy 2:11
    “Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

  • Bob

    Since we’ve got Fran dumping bible bile on us by the truckload, let’s check out more quotes from her foul Christian book of hate and vengeance:
    Numbers 31:17-18
    17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
    Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
    1 Timothy 2:11
    “Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

  • Shawnie5

    You’re so far wrong.

  • Shawnie5

    “The silly assumption that people outside of your little circle take your religious interpretations seriously.”

    Well gosh oh gee, why would we ever assume a thing like that? I mean, what with all these atheists like you definitively proving how you don’t take our view seriously by spending substantial chunks of time every day eagerly combing articles about purely intra-church affairs that have nothing to do with you and seizing every opportunity to argue with us about them and hurl insults?

    If you didn’t “take it seriously,” you wouldn’t be here — just like we’re not barking at the atheist websites.

  • Shawnie5

    And you’re so far a disruptive liar, Phil.

  • Larry

    “Well gosh oh gee, why would we ever assume a thing like that?”

    Because it makes you feel good and boosts your ego. The same reason why most turn to fundamentalism. That smug self-satisfaction of pretending to be morally superior to others all the while excusing whatever you do in public.

    Purely intra-church affairs? You deny they are even a real church.

    Are you now admitting they are fellow Christians?

    Are you reversing your stance, that those who do not share your interpretations aren’t actually Christian?

    If not, then it isn’t intra-church. Merely fundie vs. anyone else.

  • Jack

    You’re not God….but you are apparently dyslexic…..you need to read from left to right, not the other way around.

  • Jack

    I have no idea what point Kathryne is making, but the last time I checked, my Bible includes the entire Old Testament or Tanakh as well as the New. I see neither one as being superior to the other…..but the progressive unfolding of a story of God’s workings that will lead to the redemption of this world and humanity.

    As for the accusation that the New Testament being anti-Semitic, that canard is partly based on a mistranslation of the 4rth Gospel…..modern scholarship is increasingly questioning the rendering of a particular Greek work in it as “the Jews.” The word shows up about 70 times in the Gospel of John, and in nearly every case, the context is geographical, not ethnic or religious — it literally refers to Jews from Judea as opposed to Jews from Galilee, and it is used as short-hand by the Galilean author for the Saduccean priesthood in Jerusalem, a tiny group of elites whom most Jews despised for their corrupt collaboration with the Roman occupier.

  • Jack

    Susan, you need to understand that many of the same so-called liberal Christians with whom you agree on political and social issues don’t have any real respect for Judaism. The reason is obvious. All the tough moral laws that you and they equally oppose are from the Old Testament. The way liberal Christians try to get around them is by saying that the Old Testament and hence Judaism is obsolete — finished.

  • Jack

    Larry, you never showed any respect for Christians in the first place.

    And why should you? They dare to challenge your juvenile biases and prejudices.

    And that scares a provincial guy like you.

  • Jack

    Shawnie, it’s interesting how threatened the lefty posters feel about you.

    It isn’t, by any chance, because you’re a woman now, is it?

    Nah….

    Libs are funny. They preach about gender equality but then feel utterly humiliated when a female repeatedly kicks the crap out of them on a message board.

  • Shawnie5

    I take their discomfiture and resentment as every bit as much of a compliment as I do your kind words. Thank you, Jack. Good to see you here again.

  • Shawnie5

    Larry, there are faithful churches and apostate churches, mostly approved churches and mostly condemned churches (see the first chapters of Revelation), but none of them have squat to do with you. Therefore, I’ll believe your broken-record protestations about ” not taking any of us seriously” when I DON’T see you arguing with us day and night about things thst are greek to you (pun intended).