In ‘I am Cait,’ Caitlyn Jenner is doing the Lord’s work (COMMENTARY)

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Caitlyn Jenner, recipient of the Arthur Ashe Courage Award, is seen on a TV set in the press room during the 2015 ESPY's award show at Nokia Theatre in Los Angeles, July 15, 2015. Photo courtesy Reuters/ Jayne Kamin-Oncea-USA TODAY Sports

Caitlyn Jenner, recipient of the Arthur Ashe Courage Award, is seen on a TV set in the press room during the 2015 ESPY's award show at Nokia Theatre in Los Angeles, July 15, 2015. Photo courtesy Reuters/ Jayne Kamin-Oncea-USA TODAY Sports

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(RNS) The show, which airs in 154 countries and in 24 languages, serves as both classic reality TV lookie-loo entertainment and a spiritual exercise. Even the most Kardashian-phobic viewer can get something out of it.

  • Greg1

    This is as silly as it gets. Bruce Jenner suddenly becomes a “woman,” and then in some bizarre way, he is doing the Lord’s will? Come on. Let’s get real here. To do the Lord’s will is to accept our lot in this life, see how it squares with the norms established by Almighty God, and then correct our ways as needed. But that does not include moving further away from God. BTW: It might be a typo, but the Rev. John Russell Stanger is missing a second “r” in his last name.

  • Kyle

    “The winner gets: Absolutely nothing.”

    Actually the “winner” is the Christian who witnesses and contends for the faith against the darkness of these incredibly immoral acts. He DOES get something (2Timothy4:8). Nevertheless, for anu person in this world, the answer to all these issue is as simple as this:

    “And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” (Acts 16:31)

  • mccoy

    you say a differant variation of the same thing each day. get some new material

  • Dominic

    God’s work? I wish the liberal media would keep God out of things that He would have nothing to do with. When did Bruce receive a calling from God to spread the gospel of sex change? Was he called to make the genital sacrifice in order to become one of them and teach us all how to treat trannys?
    Treating everyone with kindness and compassion and love is the hallmark of Christianity, whether practiced in people or not. We do not need an oddity like Bruce Jenner to teach the world anything. His was his own misguided decision to become an artificial woman at 65 years old. His actions have no connection to God, or His Will at all. For the public to fawn all over him and call him brave, courageous, and the face of a cause is truly sad. He is an over-the-hill athlete with too much money who is justifying his change for reasons other than his own selfishness.
    “I want to play dress up, keep my penis, and wear haute couture gowns. Don’t laugh at me!”

  • nancy

    This business of the media referring to this person by a female name and with feminine pronouns is idiotic. Until Bruce Jenner completes a medically-performed transformation, he is a man and his name is not Caitlyn.

  • Pingback: IRRATIONAL ROUNDUP: Jenner, 'Christian Porn,' and praying while driving - TheWayfellow.com()

  • G TA Morris

    At our current understanding of brain function permits us to group outliers as to feeling. Pharmacological and surgical interventions are more narrowly focused. The most common reaction to all this is puzzlement.

  • Garson Abuita

    Is calling Jenner an “oddity,” a “tranny,” and generally mocking her part of this “treating everyone with kindness and compassion and love” Christianity is all about? I’ll pass.

  • Ben in oakland

    “Treating everyone with kindness and compassion and love is the hallmark of Christianity, whether practiced in people or not.”

    Well,there you have it. A certain class of so called Christian can treat other people as badly as they wish, call it love, get called out for it, claim that God has forgiven them, and then carry on as badly as before.

    MarkSanford commits adultery on his wife, runs off with his Argentinian porneia, claims God has forgiven him, and gets elected to congress.

    Josh Duggar commits incest and child molestation, his parents cover up for him. Everyone is forgiven by God, or so they claim, and off they to.

    Certain people post here continually, revile and slander people they don’t know and know nothing about, don’t give a small goddam about the harm they do, don’t ask God for forgiveness because they are sure he agrees with them, and still get to call themselves good Christians, without a hint of irony.

  • Somewhere along the road Lily missed the narrow gate and is now headed down the broad path. She has zero comprehension of God’s love, substituting fleshly ideals that tickle the ears. His love is so much greater than she or Mr Jenner can even begun to imagine. 1st, if we love someone we don’t encourage them to keep doing something which we know will injure them. Ex: If a young child plays with matches or a gun would you laugh it off as innocent fun? I hope your answer is “no, of course not.” The same holds true for Mr Jenner and any other misguided individuals who think they are better off changing their sex, regardless of how they feel about themselves. God tells us that “the heart is desperately wicked…who can know it?” Interpret that to mean….don’t follow your heart….follow the Holy Spirit who will lead you in all paths of righteousness. 2nd, scripture also teaches us to “flee the very appearance of sin.” Not to entertain ourselves with it as you suggest in this…

  • Yes, “truth” is what Christianity is all about…that’s why Christ said, “I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes unto the father but by me.” Jesus called the Pharisee’s and scribes “whited sepulchers, filled with dead men’s bones.” He also took a whip to the moneychangers and overturned their tables telling them they turned His fathers house into a den of thieves. You should learn from this that telling the truth is much more important than making someone feel good about themselves. In the end individuals only the path of truth will lead them in the right direction…lies will lead them astray. Mr Jenner needs good biblical counseling. Not drugs, sex-change or a TV show. Do you want some truth…the next time a major city near you has a gay pride parade attend it if you dare. There you will see what is at the heart of this depraved group of individuals.

  • Bruce will always be a man. He can wear high heels and a bra and even put on some makeup and get hair extensions….he can even cut off his middle leg off and get the whole world to call him Caitlyn….the bottom line is when he kneels before God…he will be accountable for what he has done with his life. What a mess.

  • Ben, get over yourself. Pick up a bible and start reading if you want to understand or know God. Your insinuation that judging others is bad amounts to biblical illiteracy, foolishness at best. We are all forced to make judgment calls every day of the week. Christ himself told, “You shall know them by their fruit.” To know the fruit you must examine it…then make a judgement about whether it is good or bad. Jenner may be a fruit, but he has none of the fruit which God tells us to produce. From here forward he will be known as the former Olympic athlete turned glamour-girl. His only other contribution to society is his children who are struggling with their own lives of which he had to offer his male chromosomes in order to give them life. Perhaps you need a reminder that Christ took a whip to the money changers in front of the temple? He would tell you it was done in love…just as a father chastises his children when they have done wrong. Jenner needs correction, not applause.

  • Ted

    Doing “the Lord’s will” according to the bible also requires you to sacrifice a goat, Greg1. So get busy on that poor goat now!

    And if you are going to claim that the crazy OT rules no longer apply, ask yourself why they were EVER put in your bizarre holy comic book.

  • Larry (the atheist one)

    What is it with Bible thumpers and the transgendered?

    There is no specific admonishment of them from religious texts (who would not have understood the phenomena anyway).

    It all just comes down to finding expression in personal prejudices. Something which has always been a common use for Christian dogma in the past.

  • Larry (the atheist one)

    So your whole spiel comes down to “trans people are icky”. Therefore you feel you have a right and duty to treat them like crap.

    “Perhaps you need a reminder that Christ took a whip to the money changers in front of the temple?”

    And yet Christians like yourself are not only indifferent to the poor but actively work to keep them in miserable conditions. It looks like someone failed to understand a lesson about commercial interests and “religious propriety”.

    Imagine if the money spent by Bible thumpers trying to attack the rights of LGBTQ people under color of law was spent towards helping those in need. But where is the fun of things like showing charity and compassion when you can use religion as a pretense to act like a raging dillhole to others?

  • Larry (the atheist one)

    Until he has the surgery, then no more.

    Seriously what is the deal with the hostility to gender reassignment surgery? There is no way to frame it in any way other than Christians acting like superstitious savages afraid of modern medicine.

  • Larry (the atheist one)

    So where is the “love” in vile and malicious behavior towards people? It isn’t there. You can stop the bullcrap at this point. Feigned concern for the souls of others is nothing more than a pretense to act badly to others. You don’t give a flying crap about people you harangue and criticize. You just want to sound righteous and socially acceptable when doing so. Your form of “Christian love” is toxic nonsense. Nobody needs it or wants it.

  • Shawnie5

    Transgender certainly is mentioned in the scriptures.

  • Larry

    LMAO! I am afraid to ask what extra-biblical interpretation nonsense you are going to cough up for that one?

    I am already getting ready to facepalm. Transgender is barely understood in the here and now.

    Go ahead, give me the quote you think applies here. I am curious to see how your mind works on this one.

  • Larry (the atheist one)

    last post was Atheist Larry not Transgenderphobe Larry

    🙂

  • Garson Abuita

    Christian Larry, if you believe the truth to be that Jenner’s behavior is sinful then fine. Just don’t tell me it’s “love and kindness and compassion” to call someone a tranny.

  • Frank

    We’ve lost our minds. The Lord’s work, really? Bruce Jenner is a guy who is a big attention whore.

  • Joseph

    Old Testament Israel. Scripture teaches there is a new covenant. Which is why we have the Old and New Testaments.

  • Shawnie5

    IOW, “I must throw in some insults and bluster to distract from the obvious fact that I don’t know what I’m talking about, as usual.”

    But I’ll be generous, anyway…

    The OT simply says that a man is not to wear the effects of a woman, nor a woman the effects of a man (Deut. 22:5). And of course it prohibited castration of any animal species which presumably would include man (Lev. 22:24). The overall point being the expectation that we are to glory and rejoice in our creation in the image of God and in His creative purposes for us, and not to monkey around with the creation design for our own selfish purposes.

  • Greg1

    Hi Ted: Old Testament laws were given by Almighty God to a people that began to practice the pagan religions while in slavery to the Egyptians. God was showing the Jewish people that if they wanted to come home to Him, then they would have to slaughter their pagan gods (goats, etc.), and offer those sacrifices to Him. But those no longer apply. These days God would want us to sacrifice our cell phones, IPads, laptops, etc. and offer those “gods” in sacrifice to Him. Jesus wants us to throw away anything that gets in the way of Loving Him with all our minds, hearts, and souls.

  • So you got cross dressing there. Followed up by a misunderstanding of transgender in general. Gender reassignment surgery is not castration, which would leave one without genitals but the alteration. Changing from one gender’s to another. Both from the Old Testament side which Christians chose to follow at their will, when convenient. Took you a while to cough those up. 🙂

    Very weak support considering the bile being spewed by reactionary Christians towards the trans community. But then again, itone finds Scripture to confirm one’s position, not visa versa.

  • Shawnie5

    Took me a while? Um, no, I would not have mentioned scriptural references to transgenderism in the first place if I did not know exactly where they were located. I don’t make beer-runs to wikipedia, unlike someone we need not mention.

    Yes those references are OT, and no they are not explicitly binding on the church as per Acts 15 (unless one interprets these behaviors as a form of sexual immorality, or something that facilitates the same). Yet that is missing the forest for the trees. When asked about technicalities like these (such as the divorce issue) Jesus’ response was basically, Forget Moses and all the temporary accommodations of fallen human nature — go back to God’s original plan and design (which He came to restore) and see what you find. What we find is man and woman, complementing each other and glorying in their God-given attributes, creating children and ruling over the earth within God’s plan and for His purposes….(cont.)

  • Shawnie5

    (cont.) That is the crux of every moral issue for a child of God. Not “what can I get away with and still be in?” but “What is God’s perfect will? How can I get closer to it? Is this choice one which will move me closer to the Kingdom or farther away from it?”

  • Dominic

    Yes, it is a defense of Christianity. Just as Jesus chided the Pharisees and Satan. Pass, if you must.

  • larry

    As usual you make giant leaps in extra-biblical interpretation in order to place something in Scripture which isn’t really there.

    Nothing even close to the premise that transgender is referenced in the Bible. at best its “this might apply if I can tweak the interpretation a bit”. You mistake sketchy subjective interpretation with unambiguous clear certainty.

    Your reading is a bit silly. If one does not alter themselves because of God’s plan, then you throw out the entire idea of corrective medicine. Birth defects must be untreated because God designed that. No artificial limbs for you! Nothing for prolonging one’s life beyond what God wanted you to have without help.

    Then again, rational application of interpretation is not what your take on religion is all about. Its about justifying behavior.

    The reactionary Christian approach seems to all come down to, “I think trans are icky, I need an excuse in the Bible to justify treating them badly”

  • Dominic

    Funny how the atheist/gay posters here imagine themselves never calling names or be sarcastic…..it is always those hypocritical Christians! Again, being Christian does not mean being a grinning, kind, throw stones at me person. They are as reactionary and frank as everyone else. Calling Jenner a tranny is bad? That’s what he is. To imply that somehow he will use this sad spectacle to help others is a lie…..he did it to satisfy his own peculiar belief that he is a she. Why can’t he be truthful? To call it ” God’s Work” boggles the mind. Leave God out of it.

  • Dominic

    Jenner will always be a man. DNA will always assert this.

  • Larry

    1. The term is derrogatory. Transgender is the polite term.
    2. Fundamentalist Christians are not a group known for being persecuted by those calling ng them various names (which is why honkey will never be equivalent in inflamatory tone to n—er)

    Plus its Christians who want to pretend in public they have compassion and kindness as a function of their faith. So their obnoxious behavior is much more hypocritical.

  • Larry

    So what?

    Since when has scientific facts meant anything to a religious belief?

    Many of you guys still want to deny clearly established scientific evidence for the last century or so.

  • Garson Abuita

    Yes, I’m going to pass. On Christianity in general, but specifically on your hateful remarks purporting to represent it.

  • Shawnie5

    “If one does not alter themselves because of God’s plan, then you throw out the entire idea of corrective medicine.”

    That’s nonsense. Jesus’ entire healing ministry was about “correcting” the side effects of man’s fallenness, which all infirmity is. and He said quite explicitly that sinners need Him as the sick need a physician.

    “Nothing even close to the premise that transgender is referenced in the Bible” Well, is Mr. Jenner wearing the effects of a woman or not? Is he contemplating having his testicles removed or not?

    “You mistake sketchy subjective interpretation with unambiguous clear certainty.” You didn’t even know what the references were until I told you and now you want to tell me my interpretation (which is not actually mine but that of Rashi and Maimonides) is “sketchy?” Not impressed, my friend.

  • Dominic

    Then atheists do have no moral center, since they are free to say whatever they want proving there is no barometer of propriety. Call Christians whatever and remind them of their Bible. Not reality.

  • Shawnie5

    “The reactionary Christian approach seems to all come down to, “I think trans are icky, I need an excuse in the Bible to justify treating them badly”

    You make this accusation a lot. I think it’s time you examined it. If you were correct about us thinking transgenderism is “icky” (in reality a gross misstatement of the case) from whence do you think that reaction comes? It certainly did not come from the cultures among which Judaism and later Christianity arose, for those cultures had no particular problem with gender confusion or genital mutilation and even considered it a desirable asset in many ways. What is the source?

  • Shawnie5

    @Dominic: I, too, am amused at the pearl-clutching that ensues whenever Christians are perceived as not being “gentle and loving” enough, but atheist rudeness and vulgarity is simply accepted as par for the course.

    And then they claim it’s OUR fault that they are popularly mistrusted and disliked. LOL!

  • Be Brave

    Gay Ben in Gay oakland,

    try living in your own glass house. The one where HIV men pass on their disease to other men without a touch of guilt or remorse.

    Christians repent of their guilt and shame. You guys take pride yours.

    Literally!

    If you’re going to look for villains, look no further than your bedroom.

  • Be Brave

    So what?

    The perfect response from the depraved.

    Science and irrefutable nature, will always have Bruce Jenner male. In human definition that means MAN.

    No freak show can change reality.

  • Be Brave

    It’s laughable how atheists try to tell Christians how a Christian is defined.

    It’s like a pile of doggie poo trying to make sense of what a dog is.

    As atheists rail against “real” Christians, they condemn the liberal and progressives ones to the hell they create daily.

  • Larry

    ” You didn’t even know what the references were until I told you ”

    I didn’t make the claim they existed. You proffered that one up in a way which demanded a little demonstration. All you have demonstrated is how subjectively you cite scripture to fit a given POV.

    “Is he contemplating having his testicles removed or not?”

    He is looking to replace them with a vagina. A half truth at best. Calling it castration would be a deliberate misinterpretation. The removal of genitalia is hardly the same as changing them.

    It is obvious that you are just grasping for a Biblical explanation and filling in the gaps here to suit your needs here.

    Not at all the claim, “The Bible mentions transgender”

  • Larry

    “You make this accusation a lot. ”

    You constantly demonstrate why it is a well supported one to make. Especially when you make the claim of your subjective self-serving interpretation of scripture is the only one and people who say otherwise are “not true Christians”.

    ” It certainly did not come from the cultures among which Judaism and later Christianity arose”

    Cultures who thought owning people as chattel property, genocide and rape were minor things not worth condemnation. We thankfully have moved beyond such savage cultures.

    ” Jesus’ entire healing ministry was about “correcting” the side effects of man’s fallenness, which all infirmity is. and He said quite explicitly that sinners need Him as the sick need a physician”

    In Jenner’s case his infirmity would be corrected by gender reassignment procedures. But never let consistency of an interpretation get in the way here. Its all about how to service your POV, not intellectual honesty.

  • Larry

    No Dominic, you mistake adhering to arbitrary outsourced rules with moral thinking. You are demonstrating why religious notions of morality are a load of crap. All is permitted if you can claim God sanctions it.

    It is not actually considering how one’s actions impact on others. It is simply self-serving following of rules out of fear of punishment or promise of reward.

    This is why people like yourself have no problem acting in malicious and harmful ways towards others without hesitation. You find excuses from moral consideration with socially acceptable opt-outs. Some of the most immoral behavior comes from people who claim to get their moral concepts from God.

  • Larry

    Shawnie, maybe if Christians didn’t make the phony claim that their faith inspires them to be gentle and loving, then they wouldn’t get so much criticism about it. If you are going to claim moral superiority, then you need to actually act in a morally upright manner. Using religion to justify malicious sociopathic behavior isn’t that.

    It is apparent your faith is writing checks you are unwilling to cash.

  • Larry

    “It’s laughable how atheists try to tell Christians how a Christian is defined.”

    Right because it will mean anything you want it to be at the moment. Christians, especially of the fundamentalist variety never feel the need to adhere to concepts like intellectual honesty, consistency or rational argument.

    So the idea of holding Christians to their own words and actions is just silly. People should just learn already that they don’t mean what they say concerning their religious belief. Its all just a way to justify acting like obnoxious fools in public. You will say anything in service of your beliefs. If you can claim God is in your corner, so much the better. 🙂

  • Shawnie5

    Answer the questions please, Lare. Is Mr. Jenner wearing the effects of a woman or not? And secondly, from whence come the “ickiness” reaction, as you mistakenly call it, to cross-dressing and genital mutilation in a culture which arose out of cultures that had no problem with them?

  • Shawnie5

    “He is looking to replace them with a vagina. A half truth at best. Calling it castration would be a deliberate misinterpretation. The removal of genitalia is hardly the same as changing them.”

    Castration is a necessity for gender reassignment. To deny that is purely self-serving sophistry.

  • Logan

    I’m neither a Christian or Atheist, so my reasons to still think of Bruce as male/man is based on nothing more than common sense. I don’t know Mr. Jenner, so I couldn’t possibly dislike or hate him. My own personal cracker-barrel conclusion is he would probably benefit more psychiatric therapy than cosmetic surgery. Having said that, it’s a free country and he’s not asking me to pay for it–so go for it. OTH, because I don’t see him as a woman or refer to him as her, doesn’t mean I’ve committed some form of a heinous hate crime and in serious need of a re-education camp.

  • Larry

    Shawnie, your weakly asserted “wearing the effects of a woman or not?” more honestly would refer to cross-dressing. Something ancient peoples would be familiar with, not Trans. There is quite a difference there. Where a man is not carrying on the appearance of a woman but in the process of trying to become one. Something which wasn’t even possible until the latter half of the 20th Century.

    By standards such as yours every British comedian who has ever done sketch comedy is damned eternally. 😉

    You are grasping at an interpretation and claiming it is something which must be considered by everyone.

    “Castration is a necessity for gender reassignment. To deny that is purely self-serving sophistry.”

    Sort of but not the same. Again only a half-truth here since the goal is changing genitalia not total removal of them.

    The only sophistry here is the claim that your Bible verses addressed transgenderism. You made a boneheaded claim.

  • As a married Christian woman of transgender experience who has been rejected and accepted by various fellow believers, I can well appreciate the complexities of these issues.

    One thing many overlook is that transgender people need to be allowed to speak for ourselves. No human being knows us better than ourselves. And there is great diversity among trans people. While there are similarities with my story and Jenner’s, there are also profound differences: the complexity, the tragedy and beauty of us cannot be summarized in the experiences of a single trans person.

    Sadly, many people assume that we (trans folk) decide who we are and undertake our changes on a whim. Few things are further from the truth. Most of us have taken years to work through this, years often in secret because even the act of publicly questioning our gender identities places us in social risk. If a person has come-out to you as trans, you can assume they have thought long and hard about it before saying…

  • Larry

    ” I don’t know Mr. Jenner, so I couldn’t possibly dislike or hate him. ”

    Which puts you in far different terms than the people I was responding to.

    You are not hurling insults at him, over it. Not claiming he is worthy of some kind of punishment or penalty. You are not claiming he is some kind of monster for having his feelings.

    The idea that one can hurl insults and claim it is “in the spirit of compassion” grates a bit. That was what I was calling out.

  • Shawnie5

    “…cross-dressing. Something ancient peoples would be familiar with, not Trans.”

    Philo, Special Laws Book III:

    “…but having even the hair of their heads conspicuously curled and adorned, and having their faces smeared with vermilion, and paint, and things of that kind, and having their eyes pencilled beneath, and having their skins anointed with fragrant perfumes (for in such persons as these a sweet smell is a most seductive quality), and being well appointed in everything that tends to beauty or elegance, are not ashamed to devote their constant study and endeavours to the task of changing their manly character into an effeminate one…
    And it is natural for those who obey the law to consider such persons worthy of death, since the law commands that the man-woman who adulterates the precious coinage of his nature shall die without redemption…”

    Sounds like the ancients knew all about men wanting to be women.

  • Shawnie5

    “Again only a half-truth here since the goal is changing genitalia not total removal of them.”

    The Torah prohibited the removal. The “goal” in the removal is irrelevant. Talk about a “boneheaded claim.” Your argument reminds me of an old classmate who was once caught cheating from a paper concealed under her skirt, and airily explained that she was not cheating but merely “transferring” information from one place to another.

    Larry, stick to doing “insurance in some capacity.” That’s one thing you have enough double-talk and dishonesty to make quite a success of.

    Now an answer, please? Is Mr. Jenner wearing the effects of a woman or not?

  • Shawnie5

    And before you forget, I would also like to have an answer to my other question that you ignored: From whence comes the “ickiness” reaction, as you mistakenly call it, to cross-dressing and genital mutilation in a culture which arose out of cultures that had no problem with them?

  • Don’t inflict the mental problems of this “IT” on us. If “it” has a mental problem we will have compassion and kindness in trying to help, but not in condoning “it”.

  • Shawnie5

    Who said he was a monster? Who said anything about wanting to see him punished? The most anyone said was that he needs some psychological help in dealing with reality — which is probably true.

  • Dominic

    Thank you…..for your hateful remarks, also…but then,no moral standard produces that easily.

  • Dominic

    Larry, your bombast is simply that. What outdated, arbitrary rules are you talking about? Christian thinking? Only you and yours think that way. Jumping on every bandwagon of liberalism is schizophrenic, but you must ….because it justifies your homosexuality. Simply because rules are old does not make them useless.
    The new laws blessing abortion, free love, gay marriage, porno, adultery, contraceptives, ad nauseum, are steps backward in time. Neanderthals lived with similar standards but progressed to a higher standard.
    My posts are not meant to meet your warped idea of a Christian, they are my opinions based on Christian knowledge. So typecasting Christians as having to speak in a certain manner that you approve of is merely a wish on your part.
    As usual, you just like playing devil’s advocate, you have no personal opinion.

  • chake

    Come on people. All this is is Jenner regardless of what he says figured out a way to get back in the limelight and make a bunch of money. Proving once again some people will do anything for money.

  • Shawnie5

    “If you are going to claim moral superiority, then you need to actually act in a morally upright manner”

    We don’t claim OUR moral superiority and never have, for we are as broken as you are. We claim the superiority of Christ Jesus. HE is the ideal that we can not achieve on our own, and have been forgiven for not achieving, and yet strive to achieve anyway out of gratitude and love, not fear.

  • Garson Abuita

    Dominic, please tell me what hateful remarks I’ve made.

  • Jack

    This is the second article in a week in which Religion News Service editors have used the phrase, “the Lord’s Work.”

    They’ve attempted to be provocative — only to succeed in being repetitive.

  • Jack

    Larry, when I think of “superstitious savages afraid of modern medicine,” what comes to mind are people who close their eyes and cup their ears when confronted with the humanity of unborn children as revealed by the modern science of DNA and fetal development.

    Given that you live in a glass house, Larry, stone-throwing is a stupendously bad idea.

  • Jack

    LOL — Given his road record of magical thinking on these boards, Larry being an advocate for scientific evidence on anything is as genuine as a Hannibal Lecter promoting vegetarianism or Attila the Hun’s pleading for pacifism.

  • Jack

    I’ve been reading posts on this board and I don’t see hatred of Jenner. I do see people pointing to the decision to change genders as being a sin, which it is if you believe the Bible.

    But whether you believe the Bible or not, it is utterly childish to assume that loving people means agreeing with their every choice in life. But that’s what’s being demanded of Christians and others of Biblical faith here.

    It’s a demand that is unworthy of any adult, no matter their belief.

  • Jack

    Larry, you’re projecting on to others exactly the behavior that you yourself exhibit on these boards.

    I’ve seen you routinely switch subjects, twist others’ words or change their definition, contradict yourself, utter falsehoods you know to be untrue, ignore answers debunking your posts and then repeat the same nonsense later on, and generally avoid any dialogue in which you are being refuted.

  • Jack

    Chake, I’m sure it’s more complicated than that. It is one heck of a radical decision, so I doubt it was for the reasons you’ve mentioned.

    I’m not saying Jenner is a wonderful person. Long before the choice for sexual change, Bruce Jenner was not known for selfless behavior. Long before this, he struck me as being a character-disordered person with a cavalier attitude toward other people’s needs and feelings.

    But it is unreasonable to believe that he did this on a lark.

  • Jack

    Larry, if Biblical beliefs are “morally outsourced rules,” why do nearly 2 billion people in the world today testify to their powerful correspondence with the prior claims of their own consciences?

    If people’s consciences bore no inner witness to the truth of outward Biblical injunctions, there is no way that Biblical belief would have spread to the ends of the earth. If Biblical precepts were utterly foreign to the human heart, the human heart would have rejected Christianity in its cradle, 20 centuries ago.

  • Jack

    Larry, your real beef isn’t with the conduct of Christians, but with the moral precepts of the Bible. You would savage even the most gentle and winsome Christians if they refused to surrender those precepts and exchange them for your own opinions and values.

  • Jack

    A strong case can be made that an “anything-goes” mentality is the outdated one….and that to advocate it is to turn the clock back 20 centuries or more. From an evolutionary standpoint, “anything-goes” preceded the rise of civilizations, all of which are based on rules and obligations of some kind.

  • Greg1

    Jack, most people ultimately come to the conclusion that God is right, and knuckle under at some point, but my goodness, what damage is done up until that point! Larry is many many years away from seeing the error of his ways, but hopefully, our Lord Jesus will break through that hard crust of his, otherwise it will be an eternity full of despair and horror.

  • Larry

    Jack, you almost never make an honest or consistent argument. When flustered you resort to cheap namecalling, ad hominem and strawman arguments Your opinion on how I handle the rather vile posts of BB is of no concern to me. That post applies to you on many occasions as well.

  • “I’ve been reading posts on this board and I don’t see hatred of Jenner. ”

    You don’t have an honest bone in your body. Give me a break. are you trying to insult my intelligence?

  • Tracy

    I am embarrassed by my fellow Christians, and pity the seculars on this issue. Re. the former: too many Christians have such little knowledge about transgender issues. For ex., what would you do with a case like this?:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETIxoQGVjos Fetal development is a KEY thing to study in order to understand this phenomenon. The other key thing to learn about is autogynephila, which is a sexual fetish that makes a man turned-on by imagining himself as a woman during sex. Enough men have that kink that I’d guess they make up the majority of alleged transgender cases — and because it’s a kink, it doesn’t require surgery; it requires prayer and psychotherapy. But those true cases of transgenderism exist, plain and simple. Hermaphrodites, for ex., have been with us since time immemorial. These are human beings with ambiguous gender. They need love, respect, and prayer.

    To the seculars: gender is at once thought of as a “social construct” AND as (to be cont…

  • Tracy

    (cont): something requiring major surgery if it doesn’t match a person’s subjective feelings. Which is it? God made us male and female. Each person is one or the other, with some people’s chromosomes/genitals/hormone levels not matching their apparent sex. But a person’s true sex isn’t fluid.People’s subjective feelings might be, but their true, God-given sex isn’t. No one can “change his (true) sex” — even if that (RARE) person requires surgery to make his inner and outer beings match up. But those people are outliers, and to “normalize” all this, to pretend as if there are 50 genders, as Facebook would have it, to demand special bathrooms, etc., is ridiculous. Outliers need to get used to being outliers. And other people (most of all Christians) should respect and have charity for those outliers as long as they’re not trying to turn the world upside-down as so many LGBT activists are trying to do now. Most folks’ inner and outer selves line up just fine, but this…

  • Tracy

    (cont) incessant focus on outliers, on the 1 or 2 percent of a population — this crap’s got to stop. It’s especially important when raising kids to be able to explain the world in simple terms, getting into pathology (inc. psychopathology) later, when they’re older and equipped to understand it. Meanwhile, everyone should stop with the name-calling, should educate themselves about TRUE transgenderism vs. autogynephilia, and should respect norms without squelching or bullying outliers.

  • Tracy

    Larry, I agree with you that many — too many — of my fellow Christians are very rude when it comes to this topic (and also homosexuality). If is one thing to believe as we must given our faith, but it’s another to engage in name-calling and rudeness, to put venting above charity. But you also have to understand that Christians are being persecuted. Christian business owners are being sued and put out of business for not wanting to cooperate in things they consider a sin, for ex. We’re being slaughtered in the Middle East — to the point of disappearing there. Just about every Hollywood movie or TV documentary that depicts Christians show us as nasty, evil, cruel, stupid, and backwards. So Christians are rightfully angry. But two wrongs don’t make a right, and Christians should, while defending ourselves, hold ourselves to a much higher standard.

  • Jack

    From your mouth to God’s ears, Greg. I like feisty debating of ideas and issues, but posts like yours reawaken me to the fact that we’re debating real people who daily are making decisions big and small that turn their souls toward or away from the Light that comes to all human beings.

  • Jack

    As to your question, Larry, of whether I’m trying to insult your “intelligence,” I often wrestle with the question of whether your problem here is weak intellect or stubborn will, but for now, I’ll choose stubbornness as the more likely explanation. Hard hearts beget soft heads — and make otherwise smart people sound silly.

  • Jack

    That’s your opinion, Larry, and you’re entitled to it. But based on the content of your posts, I doubt you believe that people who dare to disagree with you have the same rights, and I believe people like you would abrogate their rights in a heartbeat were you able. Thankfully you’re not able….not quite yet.

  • Shawnie5

    x2, Greg and Jack. Many, perhaps most, atheists who can’t stay away from religion are not simply trouble-making but are fighting mightily against the call of the Spirit. We need to be reminded of that from time to time — I know I do, as my tendency is to respond in kind when I should not.. Thank you for the kind admonishment.