Satanic group unveils controversial statue in Detroit

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The Satanic Temple's template for a statue of Baphomet is pictured in this undated handout photo obtained by Reuters June 27, 2014. REUTERS/The Satanic Temple/Handout

The Satanic Temple's template for a statue of Baphomet is pictured in this undated handout photo obtained by Reuters June 27, 2014. REUTERS/The Satanic Temple/Handout

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DETROIT -- The group, which opposes Bible-themed displays on government land, kept the location of its 9-foot-tall monument secret until the last moment,

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  • Tom downs

    You all do realize that this is an absurd response to an absurd demand made by right-wing Christians to place religious monuments on public lands. It’s an absurd unnecessary made-up controversy that wastes money and costs religion the public’s good will.

  • Bernardo

    As noted previously-

    Satan – the demon of the demented !

  • Bernardo

    “Nineteenth-century agnostic Robert G. Ingersoll branded Revelation “the insanest of all books”.[30] Thomas Jefferson omitted it along with most of the Biblical canon, from the Jefferson Bible, and wrote that at one time, he “considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.” [31]

    Martin Luther once “found it an offensive piece of work” and John Calvin “had grave doubts about its value.”[32]

  • Kyle

    You need to divide the scriptures properly. Salvation is totally free and based upon belief in the Son and His Sacrifice. The other scriptures to which you refer have to do with living the Christian life. If you believe that obedience is necessary to be or stay saved, then you are frustrating the grace of God “for if righteousness come by the law then Christ is dead in vain” Galatians 2:21. Every false religion on the planet has the same general faith plus works salvation plan you just laid out above. Ask yourself: have I “repented” enough to save my soul? If I die tonight am I sure I will go to heaven? Have a merited it? Remember, if we fail to keep one point of the law we’ve failed to keep it all (James 2:10). Please drop this false Lordship gospel and rely on faith in Christ’s sacrifice to save you. Then in gratitude and holy fear of God’s chastening abandon drunkenness, fornication, theft and all the other wicked things you listed.

  • Fran

    Kyle,

    By the end of Jesus’ millennial rule and the benefits of that rule, as well as the benefits of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus applied to mankind, man will have achieved perfection, with no flaws, as Adam and Eve were, before they sinned against God (Gen. 1:31).

    It is in that perfect state that mankind will be tested by Satan one last time (just as Adam and Eve had been concerning a particular tree) to determine who is faithful to God and deserving of eternal life on earth. As foretold at Isaiah 25:8, “He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth, for the Lord hath spoken it.”

    Those who do not pass that test will meet the same fate as Satan and his demons. As Romans 16:20 brings out, “And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly…” Something to look forward to!

  • Greg1

    Statue of Satan: the question is do Devil Worshipers deserve the right of freedom of Religion. Well in a time when the Supreme Court seems to write whatever they wish into the Constitution, then let’s looks at the laws of God, versus the laws of the Devil:

    Faith Vs. Pride
    Hope Vs. Lust
    Charity Vs. Greed
    Prudence Vs. Rashness
    Steadfastness Vs. Laziness
    Justice Vs. Vengeance
    Moderation Vs. Gluttony

    In looking at these, looks like the ways of the Devil are the norm for this country already, so putting a statue up for worship might only be superfluous.

  • Dominic

    Silliest piece of art depicting Evil Incarnate. Satan himself must be embarrassed of this kind of public exposure. Adding two children make it even more repulsive and unrealistic. Children are often afraid of Santa Claus, why would anyone think they’d be anywhere near a goat-headed freak?
    The ugliness and bile lie not in the ridiculous statue but the minds and hands of its creators. They waste their debatable talent on an icon of all that is vile and loathsome in the world. It celebrates war, misery, lust, genocide, murder, hatred, corruption, pornography, and selfishness. Man can truly be revolting. The government should order this thing tossed in the river….

  • Bernardo

    Please share the phone number of your devil friend with us. Obviously, you have been in communication with said spirit considering you know so much about him, her, or is an “it”.

  • Kylie

    Fran, now is the time for you to Repent Repent Repent from your life in the closet and openly declare your passionate love for your live-in and frequent carnal love-in girlfriend Tieta.

    It’s time, girls. Just go for it like you do repentively with each other.

  • Judas Iscariot

    I like it, I think it looks pretty cool.

  • Most people – especially those who take their religious iconography a little too seriously – will miss the point, of course.

  • Jack

    That’s because not one of the people you just mentioned understood, or perhaps wanted to understand, that Revelation paraphrases or quotes liberally from the prophets of the Old Testament. You can’t understand what it’s saying unless you go back to the relevant OT books. That’s the context for the entire book.

  • Jack

    This is a silly and juvenile response to the 10 Commandments debate. Let’s keep the statue as a monument to the immaturity and pettiness of militant secularism.

    The most laughable part is the two normal-looking children revering the homely and freakish statue. Children scare easily, so they’d normally be running for the hills.

  • Kylie

    No, the entire book, Old and New, is mostly junk. It’s pretty telling that your made-up uber-creature got the first book so far wrong and had to write another one, which ain’t much better than your group’s first writing attempt.

  • Garson Abuita

    The meta-ironic thing about this trolling of the evangelical Christian right-wing by ST is that “Baphomet” was a creation of Christians themselves who were accusing the Knights Templar of being devil worshippers! It’s like you made up a bogeyman, accused your opponents of worshipping it, your 21st-century political opponents adopted it as their symbol in order to troll you, and you fell for it hook line and sinker!!

  • Larry

    “That’s because not one of the people you just mentioned understood, or perhaps wanted to understand, that Revelation paraphrases or quotes liberally from the prophets of the Old Testament”

    Martin Luther and John Calvin didn’t understand the Bible?
    I guess if you are Catholic or Eastern Orthodox you might think so.

    There is nothing more pathetic a response to criticism of the Bible’s contents as “they don’t really know it (as well as me)”. It really shows how useless education and rational forms of discussion are useless when the subject is religion. Discussions on religion are always just a self-serving form of rationalizing one’s belief. Expertise is only acceptable to the level that you agree with their views and intents. Observations and criticism be damned.

  • Larry

    That has been the great thing about the Satanists. They demonstrate the bad stink coming from people who want to use public resources and offices as their own pulpit.

  • Larry

    “do Devil Worshipers deserve the right of freedom of Religion.”

    Yes, the same as you do.

    Freedom of religion doesn’t mean you have to agree or even like the tenets of faith of another religion. In fact its to protect those faiths which are not well liked and often persecuted.

    Although its nice to consider faith, hope, charity, prudence, steadfastness, justice and moderation to be virtues of Christianity, they are quite rarely seen by people who declare themselves to be Christians. They are never considered so to those Christians who try to appropriate government and public resources in the name of their religion.

  • Larry

    Give me a break. You guys think any religious symbol besides a cross depicts evil incarnate.

    Good taste is never a criteria when creating paeans to one’s sectarian faith. Government is not in the business of being arbiters of taste for one religion or another.

  • Larry

    The fact that we need a debate on the deliberate misuse of public land for sectarian religious displays is juvenile.

    The Satanists are merely pointing out the hypocrisy of such things in the most obvious ways possible. One cannot oppose the satanic monument without revealing one’s sectarian prejudice and casual disregard for the 1st Amendment.

    The 10 Commandments display by itself in OK constitutes endorsement of Protestant Christianity by government (since they use the Protestant version of the commandments). Without some displays from other faiths in the same area or removal of all religious displays, it sends the wrong message about the government. It becomes a symbol of bias and discrimination.

    What was omitted from the story is that a Hindu monument was also planned at the same time. It was “killed in committee” by putting a sudden moratorium on displays besides the one Protestant Christian one.

  • Fran

    The ways of the Devil and his demons are the norm for the entire world, not just the USA, when you consider the daily news on earth.

    As foretold at Rev. 12:7-12, Satan and his demons were hurled out of the heavens, which meant woe to inhabiters of the earth, and the Devil has great wrath, knowing he has a short period of time to deceive man.

    2 Corinth. 4:4 also identifies Satan as the God of this world who has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.

    We can now see the obvious effects of his actions and influence worldwide. It is no wonder that we all live in such critical times. He will not stop until God’s kingdom intervenes and he and his demons are abyssed for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:1-3). There will be NO influence on earth whatsoever by Satan and his demons during Jesus’ upcoming millennial rule. ???

  • Fran

    Dominic,

    We can see the true spirit and personality of Satan the Devil, as the apostle Peter was inspired by God to write, as well as of those who follow him:

    “Stay alert! Watch out for your great ENEMY, the devil. He prowls about like a roaring lion, looking for someone to DEVOUR. Stand firm against him, and be strong in your faith. Remember that your Christian brothers and sisters all over the world are going through the same kind of suffering you are. In his kindness, God called you to share in his eternal glory by means of Christ Jesus. So after you have suffered a little while, he will restore, support and strengthen you, and he will place you on a firm foundation” (1 Peter 5:8-10).

    Satan the Devil definitely does exist and is on a worldwide prowl, seeking more victims (and Santa Claus is a lie).

  • Dr. Zaius

    “Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil’s pawn. Alone among God’s primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother’s land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death”
    – Sacred Scroll 27, Verse 6

  • Brandon Mays

    The predictions of Tov the Samoan have been correct even in the many times that those of Jehovah’s Witnesses have been wrong. Tov predicts no imminent coming and your critical time statement is probably wrong just like JW have been so many times before.

  • Brandon Mays

    And Fran, your emoticons are really cheesy. You suck.

  • Cranmer

    Ah @Dominic — you’ve hit the main point here — you want the government to “order this thing tossed in the river.” This is America, not ancient Israel — and if you want the Ten Commandments on the court house property, why can’t the Satanists have their (awful) statue? The point being made in this project — which you’ve missed entirely — is that we have separation of church and state. No Ten Commandments on the lawn, no Satan statue either. Get it?

  • Greg1

    Satan is easy to find, just look around. If you care to know more about the Devil, just simply ask the Lord Jesus to show you who the Devil is. If you honestly, and sincerely ask Jesus for that revelation, believe me, He will show you for your own good, and it will be shocking.

  • Greg1

    Seems to me that we are already worshiping the devil Devil implicitly. The USA, in our day, revolves around Pride, Lust, Greed, Sloth, Vengeance, Gluttony, and false truth. So why formalize it, when all practice it anyway? A statue merely puts the face of he who organized the whole thing. It merely shows who is responsible for the locking of our doors at night, watching over ones shoulder, keeping to ourselves to avoid getting ripped off, getting sued for standing up for one’s beliefs, etc. We are now enjoying the Devil’s world.

  • Jack,

    “silly and juvenile”

    If you invoke the juvenile nonsense of the Bible
    You get what you deserve:

    “The Tombs opened and the Zombie Saints walked to town to raise awareness of Jesus” – (Matthew 27:52)

    Somehow this amazing event was missed by ALL contemporary historians of which there were many at the time. It was even missed by Thomas who shockingly is on record for REJECTING Matthew’s claim entirely.

    There is absolutely no reason to believe any of this silly nonsense is true.
    And every reason to abandon these claims about Jesus for one’s own good.
    It is all damaging nonsense.

  • If you ‘divide’ Spiderman Comics those stories come true also!

  • “Thou shalt follow the Constitution’s First Amendment”
    is more important than,
    “Thou Shalt worship the Lord thy God”

    And yet some say God blessed the USA? But why would he?
    We rejected God in our Constitution.

    Religion is a waste of American Freedom. I hope all these religions die off.

  • Shawnie5

    “Let’s keep the statue as a monument to the immaturity and pettiness of militant secularism.”

    My thoughts exactly, Jack.

  • Greg1

    Sounds as if you have already shaken hands with the Devil, and don’t like the real message. The truth is the Devil is alive and well. But he would rather you do not believe in him; that way it looks like society is only going through a natural transformation, when in reality society is being led down the path to moral destruction.

  • Greg1

    They should have had the statue of the Devil hacking into a bank account and stealing someone’s hard earned retirement money, while his lower demons were tempting the children seen there to molest one another. That would be the truer to life image of evil the Devil brings to our society.

  • Larry

    I love Fundy passive-aggressive behavior.

    They can’t bring it in them to fling direct insults so instead feel the need to indirectly fling poo at someone. Saying stuff like, “you are probably in league with the Devil”. As opposed to the intended, “I really want you burned at the stake, but its considered murder these days”

  • Larry

    Oooh “militant secularism”. The nonsense pejorative used in reaction to people upholding the 1st Amendment religious freedoms.

    Free exercise of religion and the separation of church and state are so inconvenient to your agendas. This is why you have to hurl such cheap insults.

    Decrying secular government is just an indirect way of saying you hate democratic principles and freedom of religion. You have made that pretty clear.

  • Larry

    Nooo. Don’t make me remember that Gwen Stacey was brought back to life and bore the Green Goblin’s twins.

    (I wish I was making that one up, but it was a real story by comic book writers)

  • Bernardo

    Ask the Lord Jesus? I tried but could not find him. Apparently, based on extensive review of the records, he was crucified some 2000 years ago and has turned to dust and is now circulating in the current winds of Palestine.

  • “Militant Secularism”

    Ooooh. Scary.
    Sounds a lot like “Militant Cotton Candy” or “Militant Bunny Rabbits”

    Want to know what militant looks like? Here you go:

    “Bring to me those enemies of mine and EXECUTE THEM IN FRONT OF ME” – JESUS (LUKE 19:27)

    “Hate everyone in your family or YOU ARE NOT WORTH ANYTHING AT ALL TO ME.” – JESUS (Luke 14:26)

    Shameful, militaristic, violent, primitive nonsense.

  • Ben inoakland

    More accurately, let’s keep the statue as a monument to the pettiness and immaturity of militant sectarianism.

    There. Fixed it for you.

  • Greg1

    Bernardo, just “think.” Our Lord can read your mind quite well. In fact every thought you have ever ran through your brain will come up at your Judgment at the end of your earthly life. If you know how to use a cell phone, you can pray to God Almighty, our Lord Jesus. If you don’t want to speak to the Lord Himself (maybe you are afraid to), then ask his Mother Mary to go to Him, and get an answer for you.

  • Bernardo

    Wow, lots of conjecture but again you communicate with the spirit world whereas the rest of us do not.

  • Jack

    Kylie, don’t look now, but your slip of biblical illiteracy is showing….no, it’s not “an entire” book, but quite literally a collection of books.

    First read the books, then comment. And reading out-of-context quotes from conspiracy-minded hate sites doesn’t count.

    And they do a grave disservice to you atheists…..you’re all being sent into battle with pop guns….and all the false bravado in the world won’t compensate.

  • Jack

    Larry, it’s obvious from your response that it is you who don’t know the Bible.

    Here’s a simple exercise:

    Buy a Bible that footnotes every Old Testament reference in the New Testament.

    Turn to the New Testament Book of Revelation — the one we’ve been talking about.

    Check the numerous OT footnotes throughout it.

    Reading Revelation apart from the Old Testament which it references constantly is an exercise in folly.

  • Jack

    Well, maybe “fundies” are passive-aggressive, but if you mean evangelicals, you must stumble through your days inebriated not to notice our direct responses to your unique combination of mendacity and ignorance.

    Nothing passive-aggressive here…..

  • Jack

    I agree, Larry. Why have a virtual nervous breakdown over every hint of religiosity in the public square?

    You folks come across like the lead character in Dracula movies. You see a religious symbol and you shrink back in horror as though it will kill you.

    In Dracula’s case, he had a point….but you guys need to man up and deal with competition in the public square.

  • Jack

    Looks like Mad Max is back from his mid-life-crisis escapades.

    Welcome back, Max. How’s eternal adolescence treating you?

    I hope you used at least some of the time to come up with suitable excuses for the 150 million people starved, beaten, bludgeoned, bombed, tortured, and shot to death in the last century alone by atheistic paradises like Stalin’s Russia, Mao’s China, and Cambodia’s killing fields.

  • Jack

    Larry, those who are hell-bent (no pun) on sweeping the public square clean of all religious expression are not “upholding 1st Amendment religious freedoms.” They’re trashing the free-exercise clause and interpreting the establishment clause in a way that trashes not just freedom of religion, but freedom of expression.

  • Jack

    You’ll have to forgive Max, who arbitrarily changes the meanings of words.

    One day, he left sanity behind and never looked back.

  • Jack

    The funniest story, fit for Marvel, is the one about the universe — with its order and precision — coming into being all by its lonesome.

    I believe this computer created itself, too.

    Just call it magic.

  • Edward Dagnes

    “A picture is worth a thousand words.”
    A bronze alternate-take on “Let the little children come unto Me” shakes up the faith of ultra reactionary Catholics, who drive a lifesize St Michael statue around Detroit ruins “in pursuit”. I am sure this ‘battle of the gods’ would fit right into Classical Greece and Rome. But this is 2015, and the gods have fled the temple.

  • “Love thy neighbor” is routinely paraphrased as “Love everybody, everywhere”

    For who is your neighbor? Everyone, of course.
    It doesn’t have any good effect on society however (Westboro Baptist Church, for example) because to “Love thy neighbor” can easily mean stone them to death for the good of their soul! To save it!

    Same for
    “Hate your mother and father….or you are unworthy of me.” – JESUS (Luke 14:26)

    It means
    “Hate them or I won’t consider you worth anything” – JESUS

    Yet you tell me this is love? This garbage is what Stalin needed in order to behave better ?!
    LOL!

  • Stalin was a self-appointed Messiah cloaked in the religious title of a Russian demigod – ‘Czar’ is a religious title – insisting on the miracles of Lysenko.

    How did you come to the conclusion Stalinism was not a religion? It is exactly the same as Christianity:

    “Execute them in front of me” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

  • Jack,

    Tell me how you found out the Universe was created
    by only one God named Yahweh/Jesus and not Allah or Ganesha
    or a completely different God.

    Tell me about the source of your amazing information.

  • Kylie

    Stuff the insults already Jack. It can be considered one book, stupid.

    Now you can get back to playing with yourself.

  • Kylie

    It’s more obvious that you are at a loss for a point to make, Jack.

  • Kylie

    You have a much longer way to go to “man up”, Jack.

    Seriously, stow the insults and maybe we’ll take you more seriously, shorty!

  • Kylie

    Jack, stow the insults already, little one.

  • Kylie

    You’ll have to forgive Jack. He’s very short.

  • Jack

    Kylie, don’t project your own proclivities onto others. It only shines the spotlight back on you.

    The Bible’s a collection of books, not a single book written during one period of time….but dozens of books written by different people in diverse cultures spanning at least a millennium.

    What makes it one book is the fact that despite all of this, there are a remarkable series of threads running through every one of them. The possibility of a single human editor achieving that is virtually zero, since it would have required the kind of massive edits that would radically change style and possibly even genre.

  • Jack

    In other words, Kylie, either simple English eludes you or you can’t stand being contradicted.

  • Jack

    Bernardo, somehow I can’t imagine your being an extensive reviewer of “the records.”

    If you were, you’d be struck by the fact that days after Jesus’ burial, the body vanished and was never found. Jesus’ enemies alleged the body was stolen despite a heavy guard surrounding the tomb, while His friends and about 500 others claimed to have seen Him alive. Obviously, both sides agreed that by the third day after burial, the tomb was empty.

    Producing the body would have destroyed Christianity before it ever got off the ground. Obviously, that didn’t happen and the rest is…..history.

  • Jack

    This is the way an adult talks?

    Brandon, you’re never too old to grow up.

  • Jack

    But it’s pretty obvious that Cranmer prefers the “Satan” statue to the Ten Commandments structure. The former may be ugly, but the latter is “judgmental, and we don’t want that, now, do we?

  • Jack

    Kylie, I made an obvious point which you’re dodging:

    What are you afraid of?

  • Jack

    So according to Max, love means agreeing with everyone about everything all of the time.

    Max, sorry to burst your bubble, but isn’t that a logical impossibility?

  • Jack

    Thanks, Ben, but I prefer the original for its accuracy.

    Clever, though.

  • Jack

    So in MaxWorld, atheists who behave themselves are atheists and atheists who don’t behave themselves are…..theists, of course.

    Here we have the old “no-true-Scot” fallacy — this time plastered on Max’s sandwich board.

  • Jack

    Max, you tell me how nothing became something — and not just anything, but the precision and order we find in life and the universe.

    Planets orbiting suns, human bodies with amazingly intricate systems that keep them self-sustaining…..

    The entire universe and its infinite wonders just all happened by themselves…..

    You really have to have quite an aversion to God to come up with such laughable hooey.

  • Jack,

    “tell me how…”

    I don’t know. Stop claiming you know.
    YOU don’t KNOW!
    That means you don’t know if God did it or something else.

  • If there is no proof of God there can be no need for the unproven God.
    Simple as that.

    Where is your evidence that show’s I’m wrong?
    Don’t you have any?

  • @Jack,

    “love means agreeing with everyone..all of the time..”

    Isn’t that your God’s motto?
    Yes – I agree. It is ridiculous beyond all comprehension.

  • @Jack,

    Stalin: “Love me as a God (Czar) and you must believe in my miracles (Lysenko). I am perfect (Socialist Realism)”

    Jesus: “Love me as a God (Yahweh) and believe in my miracles (Gospel), I am perfect.” (Matthew 5:88)

    Disgusting.

    Tell me which one is not a religion!

  • Bernardo

    Jack,

    You assume that all those post-resurrection stories are facts when all fail rigorous historic testing. I recommend the following sites for your perusal so that you can do the testing your self.

    Historical Jesus Theories, earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html – the names of many of the contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the titles of their over 100 books on the subject.

    2. Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
    – a list of early Christian documents to include the year of publication– and a review of each.

  • Larry

    Atheist regimes like the United States! Where government is supposed to be neutral to government, neither endorsing nor attacking any given faith.

    Its not atheists who are currently the chief threats to the civilized world and way of life. Its people who think their religious belief absolves them of any moral behavior and responsibilities to fellow human beings. Those who kill for their faith, those who think democracy and rule of law are only there to serve their faith.

    “with its order and precision — coming into being all by its lonesome.”

    Someone has never heard of chaos, entropy or David Hume. 🙂

  • Larry

    Accurate as in a recall of what you said. As opposed to accurate as honest and factually correct.

  • Larry

    Jack, your God doesn’t need my cash. Free exercise does not apply to government actions. You know the difference here. Your argument is completely dishonest. Does your faith demand that you lie so badly?

    If the OK legislature had been open to displays of faith besides Protestant Christianity, then there would have been no controversy. Neutrality to religion as religious freedom demands can be demonstrated by embracing many faiths. Not just denying all as you claimed. But being guided by sectarian bigotry, they chose to only keep the 10 commandments and deny other faiths, including a Hindu display. Fundies simply can’t have nice things. They keep trying to ruin them.

    To decry secularism as you do is to say you detest the concept of religious freedom. That you want government to be in service of your religion to the detriment of the free exercise of others.

  • Larry

    ” Why have a virtual nervous breakdown over every hint of religiosity in the public square? ”

    Because it is blatant endorsement of only ONE faith in a public facility. It violates notions of religious freedom by sending a message that any faith but Protestant Christianity will be taken seriously by the laws. Religious freedom means more than just license for YOUR faith. It means government neutrality to religion. Either embrace all faiths or none. Had they had other displays from other faiths, there would have been no problem.

    Why do you hate religious freedom so much?

    You come across like someone who is trying to make excuses for behavior you know is wrong. “Well it isn’t that bad, right. Sure I stole your car, but I returned it. We can get out those dents. Trust me” 🙂

  • Larry

    Troll says what?

  • Larry

    Please go on explaining how you are more learned about the Bible than Martin Luther and John Calvin. I need a good laugh.

    So what are we going to call the new Christian sect devoted entirely to the singular views of the NT of the great prophet Jack?

  • Dominic

    No, Cranmer, I don’t get it. Common sense should override decisions such as this. The Ten Commandments also represent the history of law, and are conducive to the greater good of society. Satan has the complete opposite affect. The government needs men with backbone to shout down those causing trouble for troubles sake. This is not truly a religious liberty issue, its caving in to ridiculous agendas.

  • Jack

    Theological disputes have little to do with which side is more scholarly, Larry. They often have to do with one’s underlying premises. Two equally learned theologians can have a rather spirited (no pun) debate because of differing presuppositions.

    Luther and Calvin, despite their break from the Catholic Church, still shared many premises with traditional Catholicism. One of them was an anti-Jewish bias and an accompanying belief in replacement theology.

    It was the next generation of Protestants who went on to tackle those issues.

    As each succeeding generation began to study the Bible apart from prior Catholic traditions, they began to take a friendlier stance toward the Hebraic roots of the Faith….and thus were able to spot the many Old Testament references embedded in the Book of Revelation.

    So it’s not that Luther and Calvin weren’t smart. It’s that they were held back by their biases. To be human is to have them, Larry.

  • Jack

    While both Luther and Calvin said some horrific things about the Jews, Calvin did exhibit some understanding of Hebraic roots….which is why almost all of the subsequent rejection of replacement theology came from the Calvinist wing of the Reformation, not the Lutheran wing.

  • Jack

    No, Bernardo, I’m assuming nothing of the kind. But I am treating the claims of both sides seriously as to what happened after the death and burial of Jesus. We obviously have two contesting claims — one of which said Jesus’ body was stolen, the other of which says Jesus rose from the dead and that people saw him thereafter.

    Given these two contesting claims, the rational conclusion is that the tomb was empty….since both sides, by virtue of their respective claims, obviously agreed on that point.

    And that’s the starting point for discussion: an empty tomb.

    The next question is whether we have a natural explanation for how the tomb became empty.

    And that’s where it gets interesting, because the short answer is that we don’t. Twenty centuries later, we have no such explanation, despite countless attempts to find one.

  • Jack

    In other words, Bernardo, the claim that the body was stolen falls apart upon close examination. And that’s a whole other topic for another post.

  • Jack

    But, Larry, who says that only one sect or group should have freedom of expression in the public square?

    That’s your premise about others. You’re projecting onto others your own monopolistic view that only non-religious expression belongs in the public arena. You endorse the French view, not the Anglo-American view, of the optimal place for religion in public life — ie virtually absent.

    That’s because you’re a French Revolution guy and not an American Revolution one.

  • Jack

    Nice try, Larry, but you want religion of any kind swept out of public life, which is fine if you’re in France, but not so fine if you’re living in America, where we do things differently.

  • Jack

    No, Max, the whole point is that an adult view of love must include a willingness to disagree with someone if you honestly think they’re on a destructive path. It’s impossible to love without it, and excluding it from any definition of love means just what I said — that we’re somehow supposedly to agree with everyone on everything all of the time. And that is a demand that is logically incapable of being fulfilled.

  • Jack

    No, Larry, accurate as in accurate.

  • Jack

    Max, I’m not the atheist in this conversation; you are. I don’t have to twist myself into a pretzel to deny the obvious inference from what I see all around me….that which is not only utterly magnificent and breathtaking, but ingenious. My conclusion does not require me to engage in all sorts of mental gymnastics or contortions to avoid what’s staring me in the face.

    You are forced to say it all happened by itself — coincidence piled onto coincidence. I am simply stating the obvious — it doesn’t look or feel like a mere coincidence.

  • Jack

    Again, Max, all you’re doing is trotting out a variant of the “no-good-Scot” fallacy.

    If an atheist behaves, you laud him. If an atheist slaughters tens of millions of people, he must not be an atheist.

    150 million dead, Max.

  • Jack,

    You are the one making the claim “God absolutely did it!”
    Not me.
    I am saying WE DON’T HAVE ANY DATA ON THIS YET to KNOW!

    I have made no claims!
    Religion insists it KNOWS when it is obviously ignorant and scared so it PRETENDS TO KNOW.

    I don’t fear the unknown. But you do – so you claim a God exists to save you from your terrors.

    You must be fascinating at the doctors office!

    Doctor: I don’t know what is causing your headache.
    Jack: THEN IT MUST ONLY BE A BRAIN TUMOR!

    Nothing to be proud of.

  • Jack,

    “Tell me how something became nothing!”

    1. There is no evidence there ever was a ‘nothing’. If Gods can ‘always be’ why not the Cosmos?

    2. Based on your own argument God cannot exist. If nothing cannot become something, Gods cannot be created either, nor can they create themselves out of nothing – nor can they create other things from the same nothingness.

    3. Your entire argument is just an assertion that only ONE God could create the cosmos and not 100,987,324 Gods! and NOT 2,321,765 Gods!

    Where is your God? The burden for your claim is on you.

  • @Jack,

    “You have quite an aversion to god…to come up with such hooey”

    You have an aversion to Leprechauns.
    Obviously the entirety of existence was made by Leprechauns.

    Car Mechanic: “I DON’T KNOW WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOUR ENGINE. NOT SURE I CAN’T FIX IT.”
    Religious JACK: “THEN THE ONLY ANSWER IS MAGIC PIXIES!”

  • “love must include a willingness to disagree with someone if you honestly think they’re on a destructive path.”

    How dare you?

    If the other person doesn’t agree with your conclusion you have shown no love – you have stripped them of their independence, their self worth and their responsibility for their own decisions – all of which are crucial human rights!!

    Shame on you. It is truly disgusting.

  • Jack,

    Stalin was a Christian Orthodox Seminarian who built 22,000 churches across Russia. He was worshipped as a god when he was alive and he is praised as a saint wearing a halo in Russian Churches today!
    Stalin’s Advertising the miracles of Lysenko through “Socialist Realism” is NOT Atheism.

    “Thou Shalt have no gods before me” – Yahweh
    Stalin was as much of an Atheist as Yahweh.

  • @Jack,

    Agrarian Religious cults with miraculous claims (Lysenko) and religious titles (Czar) don’t count as Atheism.

    Stalin was anti-religion in the same way McDonalds is anti-Burger King. It is the exact same dogma!

    Totalitarianism is always a religious matter.
    Separation of Church and State is the effective cure for it.

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  • Kennedy Musekwa

    The battle of human life is to attain perfection, how does a human being conquer that battle? perfection is only attained by embracing the truth.
    satan is called devil because of his diabolical refusal to obey or rather to serve and was thrown out. in that fall he swept some and they went down with him. Those who want to sink with him let them bow to that statue but those who want to rise to the heights let them say no

  • Pepe