Ultra-Orthodox man stabs six Gay Pride marchers in Jerusalem, Israeli police say

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People disarm an Orthodox Jewish assailant after he stabbed and injured six participants at an annual gay pride parade in Jerusalem on Thursday, police and witnesses said.Photo by Amir Cohen courtesy of Reuters

People disarm an Orthodox Jewish assailant after he stabbed and injured six participants at an annual gay pride parade in Jerusalem on Thursday, police and witnesses said.Photo by Amir Cohen courtesy of Reuters

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The parade has long been a focus of tension between Israel's predominantly secular majority and devoutly religious Jews, Muslims and Christians. Police say the same assailant stabbed three at a similar march in 2005.

  • ben in oakland

    Isn’t it funny?

    Yet another attack on gay people by the ultra-religious, who claim to love us and to represent god and everything good and holy.

    Isn’t it funny?

    If he were a muslim, we’d have every news outlet in the world calling it terrorism.

    isn’t it funny?

    He is NO DIFFERENT than the antigay posters here who think gay people need a “levitical solution”. But at least they can say: “We’ll, we’re not as bad as the Orthodox Jews”.

    Isn’t it outrageous?

    How dare those sinning bystanders tackle him and interfere with his freedoms of religion and speech. I’m sure Govs. Pence, Jindal, Perry, and a host of others will react with a stern finger wagging.

    Like money, like the demonization of gay people by so-called Christians on these very pages, stabbing people you hate is speech. How dare those bystanders be intolerant of intolerance. Isn’t it outrageous?

    No. It’s not funny.

    It is outrageous. And sad.

  • Ben in Oakland

    When has prayer every fixed a thing? when has anyone prayed an amputated limb back? Or prayed the end to a war that actually ended? Or prayed a rapist from raping a woman?

    violence rarely solves anything. The same might possibly be said of prayer, but right now, the evidence is against it.

  • Doc Anthony

    The same assailant that did a similar thing in 2006? That idiot should have been given a “Hard 50” (50 years with no parole) the first time around. Now it’s too late and he has struck again.

    I like Israel, I support Israel, but they share the same problem as America — they’re just **too liberal** sometimes. Their government needs to crack down on crooks. Terrorism is terrorism, and Ben is correct (for once), this crook really is a terrorist.

    I say it’s time for (a) life gig with no parole, (2) Israel to put some Mossad techniques on that guy while he’s in the hoosegow, so that he can be **properly** re-educated to stop his mess. The bum has earned it.

    That doesn’t mean I support Israel brazenly spitting in God’s face with those Gay Pride Parades. Israel, above all nations, should know better than promoting that mess. Their own Hebrew Bible spells it out. Consequences cometh.

    But that crook, he messed himself up. HE needs to pay the price !!

  • Doc Anthony

    test message

  • Daniel Berry, NYC

    oh come one Doc Anthony: let’s hear what you have to say about this. Your Bronze-Age style inveighing against gay people is well known in this blog, so let’s hear your latest installment.

  • Dominic

    Violence certainly not being any solution, it seems intentionally insensitive for gays to march in one of the world’s holiest cities. The gay agenda lacks any sensitivity to anything but themselves. Pride in being gay is nothing to bore the public with daily. I feel sorry or those religious living in this particular city having to view such activities. It’s shameful the gays have no concept of respect. But…….we need to be politically correct and shame those who disagree with them.

  • Jack

    Ben, even the posters who’ve said genuinely hateful things on this board would never kill you. Not so with the ultra-Orthodox. It’s a whole new ball game when you go from born-again Christianity or modern Orthodox Judaism to ultra-Orthodox sects. It’s a quantum leap into a decidedly different world. None of the tidy distinctions between “hating the sin but loving the sinner.” Any such distinctions are wiped out completely…..and that means narrow beliefs get quickly converted into literal violence.

    Go to Mea Shearim in Jerusalem and your car can be stoned if it’s moving on the Sabbath. The ultra-Orthodox can be quite intense.

  • Jack

    It depends what kind of prayer. Prayer for others humanizes the heart. Prayer for personal change humbles the heart. These are not flashy things but they are life-changing.

  • Jack

    But note that the man who did the stabbing had been in jail for doing the same thing years ago and just got let out. This was not a normal person expressing normal outrage about something.

    The article doesn’t tell us enough about where the parade was, when it was, etc.

  • Greg1

    I have a great relationship with the God Almighty: The Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. We interact all the time. And I also love all the Angels and all the Saints, and all the souls in Purgatory, and I pray for them to be cleansed more quickly. In fact all of heaven helps me and petitions for me. Heaven is a family. It is not just God. The more you pray, the more you know God, and Love Him. He answers prayers for me all the time. And he answers the prayers of the Saints in heaven. If you ask them, they will pray for you. All He wants is our fidelity, or at least our attempt at doing his will, and staying within the boundaries He establishes. Ben, you need to ask what God wants from you first, then you will get your prayers answered. You must be willing to listen to His will for you, and be willing to accept that. He then answers your petitions.

  • Be Brave

    Ben,

    Please link to the posts that Gays should be treated with the Levitical solution or please if you wouldn’t mind shut up.

    The fact is, that as terrible a crime as was committed by this man in Israel, you gays want the Sodom solution meted out to any of us that won’t show obeisance to homosexuals.

    Here let me show you:

    “Get out of our way,” the homosexuals replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” Genesis 19

    And this was in comparison to men raping men.

    Some things never change.

  • Be Brave

    You gays and atheists always demand a puppet master totalitarian ruling over all.

    Creepy. Very creepy.

  • Be Brave

    This is a gay propaganda piece. It isn’t going to go into non essential details.

    Anything that can advance the gay agenda is what is important at RNS. They ain’t done with the ultimate rule of society by a long way.

  • ronald

    I agree with Be Brave, Jack and Dominic that the gays brought this on themselfs.

    I am also concerned to read that the protester had been inprisoned for this before, and that he is now under arrest again. Freedom of religious expression is the most important aspect of human rights. People must NOT be inprisoned for expressing their conscience against the Gay Agenda.

    I join Be Brave, Jack, Dominic, Shawnie and the rest of this site’s strong Christian community in saying PHARAOH, LET MY PEOPLE GO! The stabber must be released!

  • Be Brave

    Ronald,

    It is just as bad to attack homosexuals as it is to force Christians to celebrate homosexuality. Nothing can justify what the Israeli did. Violence is wrong. There is nothing that can justify gay activists in any guise they come in for forcing gay pride onto and into Christian Churches that decide to follow the Gospel and not political correctness.

    What went on in the mind and hands of that assailant cannot be justified by his actions. What the gay pride activists are doing in their minds and hands towards their aims to subvert and pervert The Church is not justifiable either.

  • “Prayer works”

    Christian: “Prayer works!”
    Atheist: But it doesn’t. I ask God and nothing happens.
    Christian: “DON”T TEST GOD, he isn’t your personal puppet”
    Atheist: So what do I do?
    Christian: “Say a prayer”

    Ugh!

  • Michael Glass

    Brought it on themselves?

    This is called, “Blame the victim.”

  • Ben in oakland

    Oh, please.

    You know exactly who proposed the “Levitical solution.” I believe I was quoting one vociferously Antigay so called Christian.

    Now, who was that?

  • Doc Anthony

    If Ben’s logic is correct, then Ben himself is “NO DIFFERENT” than Floyd Corkins, the gay guy who attempted to do a mass shooting at the Family Research Council headquarters just a couple of years ago.

    Ben was probably highly offended that a black security guard actually tackled the gay shooter Corkins, and thus the guard “dared” to be “intolerant of Corkins’ intolerance”, to borrow Ben’s wording..

    (See how messy things can get when we start broad-brushing folks after a crime has occurred? See how quickly it can be turned right back on you? So let’s think it over, people.)

    Meanwhile, I do agree with Ben that this Israeli crook should be considered and punished as a Terrorist. What this crook did is indeed an act of terrorism, just like what Corkins tried to do here in America.

  • Doc Anthony

    It was a simple test message, Daniel, nothing more.

    But since you’re sitting on the edge of your seat, waiting to find out what ole evil “bronze age” Doc Anthony is going to say next, I certainly do not wish to disappoint you..

    See my response to Ben’s post above. That’s really about it.

    The fact is that (especially in America) you can find crazy, murderous people on ALL sides and in ALL flavors, including gay. So there’s no reason to get into broad-brushing on this one crime story.

    Meanwhile, the article points out something worth noting: “Gay marriages performed inside Israel are NOT recognized by the authorities.”

    Sure wish the American government were as wise as the Israeli government. Spitting in God’s face never seems to work out.

  • Garson Abuita

    Jack and others, my understanding is that the parade went from Independence Park down Keren HaYesod (the pre-State Zionist fundraising agency, still in existence) Street to Liberty Bell Park. While there are Orthodox Jews everywhere in Jerusalem, the parade route was nowhere near the downtown Haredi ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods of Mea Shearim, Geula etc., and even further from the suburban and outlying ones.

  • ben in oakland

    Always happy to oblige. Here’s the link.

    http://religionnews.com/2015/06/25/gay-straight-conversion-therapy-group-committed-consumer-fraud-jury-finds/

    and here’s what YOU said:

    This is awesome. If the anti-Christians try their vitriol game in this article towards the JONAH group, they’ll be called anti-Semites.

    LOL

    Time to sit back and enjoy the show.

    Now, I wonder why this group didn’t advise the method prescribed in the Torah to end homosexuality?

  • ben in oakland

    Jack, for such a bright and usually compassionate man, you have some severe blind spots. Your obsession with the mythical Left is one. The hate and/or despite that animates so many antigay so-called Christians is another.

    They wouldn’t kill me? Of course not. That would actually have consequences for them. but are they happy to incite others to do so, all the while expressing their Christian love? Of course! Read BB’s comment below. That’s what “love the sinner” means in this context. Profess love and let others do the hating. Then the “lover” gets to follow along, and like a certain Pilate, wash his hands of the matter.

    These ultra-orthodox are no different from the BQRQ’s and BB’s of the world, no different from the Steven Andersons, no different from ISIS. The latter is the only one of the three NOT constrained by secular law.

  • ben in oakland

    Only you could come up with this, doc. Just when I think you have reached the bottom in your depravity, you prove me wrong.

  • ben in oakland

    One of the world’s holiest cities? The holy city claimed by each of the three religions that have spent decades and centuries murdering each other in the name of their god?

    what an indictment– those nasty gays are offending the holiness of people who have been murdering each other for centuries. As always, you poor, poor ultra-religious and so-called Christians have to be the victims, even when innocent people are attacked.

    what an indictment– OF YOU.

  • ben in oakland

    THIS is the best you can come up with, Jack?

    Dominic blames the victims in a terrorist attack on inn0ocents, and you want to know where the parade was?

  • ben in oakland

    Ronald is a poe troll. He often speaks the truth. It just sounds like it ought not to be truth.

  • ben in oakland

    Well, Jack, did you read this one? A man attacks innocent people with a knife, and that is exactly like Christians having to obey the secular law that governs all of us.

    When are you actually going to take a stand, Jack? On your own, without prompting?

  • Garson Abuita

    If anyone’s wondering whether the parade was held specifically in a provocative location, that’s a stretch. My understanding is that the parade went from Independence Park down Keren HaYesod (the pre-State Zionist fundraising agency, still in existence) Street to Liberty Bell Park. While there are Orthodox Jews everywhere in Jerusalem, the parade route was nowhere near the downtown Haredi ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods of Mea Shearim, Geula etc., and even further from the suburban and outlying ones.

  • ben in oakland

    It is absolutely amazing how much pride the humble servants of God take in speaking for him.

  • Larry

    “I have a great relationship with the God Almighty”

    He’s your bestest buddie and backs your corner no matter what you do. Any act towards other people, no matter how malicious or vile can be excused as long its done in the name of your good buddie God.

  • Cranmer

    @Be Brave Your comment showed itself as a turning back on the Gospel. You just made a very big mistake in declaring a moral equivalency between violence and nonviolence — I don’t know if you read the Gospels much, but Jesus didn’t advocate violence like that or in similar situations. You are filled with hate and misrepresent the teaching of the the Christ you claim to follow. I will pray for you.

  • Shawnie5

    He demonstrated your hypocrisy and use of bigoted stereotypes, Ben. While I know this is highly improper by pro-gay and leftist standards of etiquette, which insist that bigotry may go only one way, it is hardly depraved.

  • Jack

    Ben, I think the same way about you, but in this instance, I really think it’s you who are displaying an either/or mentality on this matter. I realize it comes with your activism, necessarily so, because I understand how activism works. Acknowledging shades of gray isn’t helpful to the quest for real change. I get it. And I don’t expect you to agree with me, certainly not publicly and perhaps not privately, either.

    But in the real world, shades do matter. Sometimes they’re the difference between literal life and death. For historically marginalized people, from Protestants in Medici France to Jews throughout Europe to gays in any number of places, nuances matter big-time if you’re trying to save your own life and those of others. It’s easy in the comfort of America to say Tony Perkins equals ISIS but in real life, one means you live and the other means you die. Again, oppressed people have constantly faced this throughout history.

  • Shawnie5

    Except that he DOESN’T speak the truth; he only speaks bigoted stereotypes. Which is why generally it is only outsiders who are fooled by him.

  • Larry

    Not even close. Unless you can point out to some systematic effort to deny people like yourself civil liberties, for your imprisonment / execution, or legalized discrimination, all you have is silly guilt by association of a crazy guy.

    Animosity may go both ways, but only the people in your corner have are trying to give it color of law.

    Besides, Doc has gone much lower. Something about marshmallows and Boy Scouts

  • Shawnie5

    Jesus went farther than that…He declared that as far as human good vs. evil goes, violent THOUGHTS are the moral equivalent of violent acts. For Him, the endless wrangling over “moral equivalence,” which was well known to HIm in His time and continues unabated to this day, is nothing more than rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic — the disease underlying it all is SIN, the fundamental problem of human nature.

  • Jack

    Just want to add a comment on the “mythical Left.” It is hardly a secret that in the late 1960s and 1970s, the far Left began to co-opt mainstream liberalism and take it in a decidedly different direction. We can go down the line, on issue after issue, and distinguish between traditional American liberalism and what was taking it over.

    This is not some odd, quirky idea, but is one that liberals of the time, such as Hubert Humphrey, the father of modern civil rights legislation, were saying. So was JFK and RFK biographer Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. founder of Americans for Democratic Action, a premier liberal organization in the mid-late 20th century.

    In fact, in the 1980s, a group was formed, the Democratic Leadership Conference, whose goal it was to take back the Democratic party from the far Left and make it more mainstream. Among its founding members were……Bill Clinton and…..Al Gore. Clinton did move it somewhat to the center, but Gore is another story.

  • Shawnie5

    Oh nonsense. We’re not talking “color of law” here, because neither of these acts have the color of law. We’re talking about stereotyping, which you guys constantly decry but routinely practice — particularly you. “One crazy Jew kills a gay and therefore you all really want to kill them” is no different from “one crazy gay kills Christians therefore you all really want to kill them.”

    “Animosity may go both ways…”

    Thank you. That is the point.

  • Greg1

    Larry, God doesn’t just establish an order, and then flippantly dismiss Truth as if it were a passing moment: Truth is Truth. Each of us is bound to Truth. I am very consistent in what I say. And all is within the Plan of God. Hopefully one day you will see the Truth for what it is: Absolute Truth.

  • Jack

    Ben, while I disagree on some aspects with Greg on theology, there is nothing wrong with the spirit of his description of prayer above. It’s a universal call to the whole of humanity, and it portrays a gracious God who will not turn any sincere seeker away, so long as they’re serious and not playing games — ie so long as they are prepared to follow God’s will wherever it may take them. And even when they fail, it portrays a God who is readily willing to forgive.

    I sometimes think that people mistake God’s grace for weakness, even as they are outwardly shaking their fist at Him and accusing Him of being a tyrant, but that’s another thought for another post.

  • Jack

    Actually, Larry, that’s probably a big reason you, yourself, don’t believe in God. In your own mind, you become accountable to no one and if you lie or cheat, it’s as though you’ve told the truth until somebody calls you on it. So long as they don’t, you think you’re in the same boat as truth-tellers.

    Nice little racket, until you realize that you can no more erase God by denying Him than you can erase the sun by shutting your eyes.

  • Ben in oakland

    Doc, I don’t speak against Christians in Christianity. I speak against anti-gay Christianity and religion, theocracy, and dominionism.

    Not one gay person I have ever known, and not one organization that promotes gay rights, had anything but condemnation for the FRC shooter. Not one. However, we have listen for decades to so-called Christians who think any amount of violence against us is perfectly fine.

    And then, we have people like you, who are willing to repeat any slander or reviling lie about gay people, as long as it promotes your agenda – your religious, political, anti-gay, dominionist, theocratic, and for all I know personal agenda.

    This posting is a perfect example. One crazy gay man does something, and that proves that were all the same. If gay people had a book demanding violence against Christians, condemning Christians with every lie possible, exactly how long would it take to have it declared hate speech?

  • Jack

    How do you honestly pray to a being you are convinced doesn’t exist? The moment you begin to pray, you’re believing He does exist or He might exist.

  • Ben in oakland

    A load of crap, Jack. I don’t need to be responsible to a mythical God; I am responsible to myself: to be the best person I can, polite, kind, decent, honest, attempting to harm no one, and making reparations and amends when I do. The idea that morality exist only with God is nonsense.

    There Is certainly a sufficiency of immorality in the world that is conducted by people who claim to speak for God, and who claim to act in a godly manner.

  • Ben in oakland

    It’s only a problem for the people who believe in sin. I am reminded of the conversation I had many years ago with another anti-gay right winger. He said, “I’m a Christian and an American citizen. And proud of both.”

    My response was, “I’m not a Christian, but a human being. And prepared to take the consequences. And that means being responsible for my actions, and not blame it on God, the devil, or some aMorphous, ever-changing concept of sin.”

  • Jack

    Israel has its far lefties, as do we. It’s a Peter Pan mentality — a refusal to move on to adulthood. The scary thing is when they get power — it’s like a baby getting hold of a hammer.

  • Ben in oakland

    How can I spit in the face of something I don’t believe it? Why is rejecting the entirety of the New Testament not spitting in the face of God? Yet, 2/3 of the world does exactly that, and it doesn’t get your hockey hot in the slightest.

    And yet, God doesn’t seem to care. He didn’t care when your ancestors were enslaved and by the hundreds of thousands. He didn’t care when 6 million Jews were murdered, or 50,000 to 250,000 gay people as an afterthought, not to mention the slavs, gypsies, basques, and Catalans. He didn’t care about the murders of hundreds of thousands of witches for a crime we know doesn’t exist. The murders of hundreds of thousands of Arabs, whether Christian or Muslim, due to our wars of choice, also doesn’t bug him.

    But boy! Doing the things that you disapprove of with my own genitalia. That will get his hockey almost as hot as yours.

  • Jack

    Ben, read the full post.

    Sentence 1 established the fact that the killer is personally responsible for his actions.

    Sentence 2 was a logical response to Dominick’s allusions to proximity.

    When I respond to posts, I try to address all aspects, unless I’ve already addressed them repeatedly in prior posts. And even then, I might still do it.

    Take off your activist hat sometimes, and put on your analytical hat and you’ll see.

  • Ben in oakland

    And yet, you continue to comment on RNS, Repeating and repeating your lies and slander’s, your attacks on innocent people, and your lies and slanders about people you don’t know I know nothing about, you have done you no harm, but who offend you by existing without asking your permission first. Did I mention your lies and slanders?

    And the nastiest part of all of this? The other so-called good Christians awho comment regularly here, and yet you don’t find it in their very Christian hearts to call you out on that.

    By the way, any answer to your Levitical solution? I bet you didn’t think I had saved that comment, did you. And still, not one good Christian here is calling you out for it. Not one.

  • Ben in oakland

    Nonsense, Jack. Their all the gay people who prayed and prayed and prayed for years for God to change them, and he never bothered. Were they not sincere enough for him? And then there’s 6 million Jews that were murdered in the Holocaust. I’m sure they were praying away as well. God didn’t seem to care.

    I don’t have a problem with prayer, when it is directed at making oneself a better person. The making oneself a better person is not the same thing as pretending that one is superior to others: religiously, spiritually, socially, morally, and humanly.

  • Jack

    Context…..that’s exactly why I asked my questions.

    The term “Gay Pride Parade” can mean just about anything.

    Some gay pride parades are just self-identified gay people marching…and that’s it.

    On the other extreme, some are X-rated.

    And some are in between the two.

    The first extreme is obviously no problem. The second extreme is obviously a big problem.

    And the same is true of any parade by any other group.

  • Jack

    Wrong, Ronald. I never, ever said that….and to suggest otherwise is utterly repulsive.

    You’re a real jackass.

  • Jack

    Nor, I may add, did the others you mentioned. Everyone I’ve read here thus far has condemned the stabbing.

  • Shawnie5

    “It’s only a problem for the people who believe in sin.”

    Sin is everyone’s problem, whether you “believe in it” or not. It is why we live in a world of atrociites and oppression of every variety instead of a utopia that runs effortlessly on “innate empathy.”

    In any case, Cramner’s complaints abut “moral equivalence” demonstrate that he is the one who has turned back on the Gospel. The entire sermon on the mount was a repudiation of moral equivalence excuse-making that allows one to say, “I thank thee, God, that I am not like that sinner over there…”

  • Larry

    You aren’t talking about it now. But you (really Doc, with you cheerleading him) are trying to make a desperate attempt at moral equivalency between the organized bigotry and the acts of a crazy person. Pretending some hypocrisy exists in order to mitigate one’s own views.

    “One crazy Jew kills a gay and therefore you all really want to kill them” is no different from “one crazy gay kills Christians therefore you all really want to kill them.””

    And yet that is typical argument used by Fundamentalist Christians when there is some crazy Muslim guy runs amok here. Its actually a fairly typical argument for Christians to make in many situations, unless the perpetrator is Christian. Then its all a matter of circling the wagons.

  • Jack

    Take a stand on what, Ben? Stabbing innocent people to death? I just did, as did everybody on this board.

    Supporting gay pride parades? I said in a prior post that I have no problem with any parade, gay or other, so long as it’s not X-rated. And no, I’m not discussing legality, but propriety…..not what’s legal but what’s the right thing to do if you respect your fellow human beings.

    And to not raise that topic is to pretend that no gay pride parade ever crossed the line. And that’s ridiculous.

    But now let’s talk about you:

    The goal of gay marriage is a limited one — to secure a specific right for specific people. One can advocate it within the American context of freedom.

    But that’s completely different from demanding that others celebrate it and jailing or fining those who don’t. Once you do, everything changes. You’ve crossed the line to totalitarianism.

    That’s not only wrong on principle but a tactically stupid overreach.

  • Larry

    “Actually, Larry, that’s probably a big reason you, yourself, don’t believe in God. In your own mind.,.[self serving bullcrap ensues]”

    So where did you get your psychology degree Jack? You should get a refund.

    The idea that atheists are somehow hedonistic nilhilists is a myths people like yourself use to pretend outsourcing decisions to arbitrary authority figures is somehow sane.

    “you become accountable to no one and if you lie or cheat, it’s as though you’ve told the truth until somebody calls you on it. ”

    Wrong. I am accountable to those on the receiving end of lies and cheating. Its called not being a sociopath. If you need God looking over your shoulder to keep from running amok, you are a bad person. Someone lacking in morals needing a leash.

    I don’t pretend that harming people and acting like an immoral person is always OK if God says so. To you there is no act which cannot be excused if you call it “The Truth” and act like a self-righteous obnoxious…

  • Jack

    Wrong, Ben. Read the part where I said to Larry, “you, yourself.” I did that deliberately, to address him particularly, since he saw fit to do that to others. This was not a global indictment of atheists…..that would be silly, since, like theists, they came in all sizes and shapes. I’ve said here, over and over and over again, that being an atheist does not make one moral, immoral, or amoral….because things like upbringing play a much greater role in molding people’s character.

    It was, however, to note that atheism provides a convenient cover for some people. That is as indisputable as saying that theism provides a convenient cover for other people.

  • Shawnie5

    “But you are trying to make a desperate attempt at moral equivalency between the organized bigotry and the acts of a crazy person.”

    The equivalence is between the act of the crazy Jew and the act of the crazy gay. And another equivalence exists between using the act of the crazy Jew to stereotype all non-gay-affirming religious, and using the act of the crazy gay to stereotype all gays.

    Is that simple enough for you?

    “Pretending some hypocrisy exists in order to mitigate one’s own views.”

    Neither of these stereotypes are my “view.” But one of these stereotypes is evidently Ben’s view, and assume yours as well since you blindly race to defend it.

  • Jack

    I just answered you, Ben, but where the heck is the post? Hopefully it will be posted soon.

  • Larry

    Shawnie, the whole “you are the bigger bigot” argument is ridiculous.
    You pretend for some equivalence between those who have typically attacked the lives and liberties of a minority population with those lashing out in response (and in self-preservation).

    Its why claiming reverse racism is so silly, it exists but it hardly has the same effects. “Honkey” and “cracker” are never going to be anywhere close to “n—-r”. Chris Rock is not an equivalent to a KKK Grand Wizard. One has a history of murdering people in service of their hate, the other makes jokes about surviving such people.

    Frankly the idea of calling Ben a bigot here is ridiculous. People like you want to deny his very life, whenever possible. It isn’t a display of hatred, its self-preservation.

  • Jack

    Ben, who said that those with unanswered prayers aren’t sincere enough? I’d be the last person in the world to agree with that statement.

    I was talking about coming to God and God accepting us. I was saying that God will shut the door on no one who honestly seeks Him. I was not referring to petitionary prayer for changed circumstances, but prayer for reconciliation with God.

    AS far as God’s allowing every type of horror to plague the planet and people, I ultimately shut my mouth and let the most hurting people in the world do the talking — people who’ve gone through more than any one of us will likely endure in our own lives.

    And when I do, I find something very interesting:

    Some of the most tender-hearted and God-affirming people are precisely those whom life has treated the worst.

    I let them have the final say.

  • Larry

    “I’ve said here, over and over and over again, that being an atheist does not make one moral, immoral, or amoral”

    Bullcrap. You never ever say such things. You claimed exactly that being an atheist means one is immoral or amoral.

    Somehow being a Christian doesn’t preclude one from lying badly. Even with God looking over your shoulder, you can’t help acting in an immoral fashion. You are demonstrating exactly what I meant previously. There is nothing Christians like yourself won’t say or do if they think it will further their faith. When one outsources their moral thinking and forgoes any consideration of the impact of one’s actions on others, everything is permitted.

  • Shawnie5

    “The whole “you are the bigger bigot” argument is ridiculous.”

    You ARE a bigot, as you routinely operate on stereotype, and Ben has just evidenced it as well. Who is the “bigger” bigot is irrelevant.

    “It isn’t a display of hatred, its self-preservation.”

    LOL! Well, that’s the most imaginative excuse for bigotry I’ve heard in a long time. Thanks for the interesting specimen.

  • Larry

    Not true. My sins are not your problem unless they are sins against you.

    Claiming that one’s bad behavior towards others is really “concern for their sinning soul” is one of the most bald-faced lies fundamentalists give. Pretending to combat sin being a pretext to malicious actions. Immorality in the guise of righteousness. Just because one thinks God supports their actions, it does not make them moral or acceptable. Religion being very good at enabling people who seem to lack innate empathy, to harm others with impunity.

    ““I thank thee, God, that I am not like that sinner over there…””

    And yet that precisely describes the attitude of people like yourself. Those who consider themselves so above reproach that they can pass judgment on the sins of others. There is some definite irony impairment in Christianspeak.

  • Jack

    Larry, you know I did because you responded when I said so. Thus, either you are lying or your memory has failed you.

    But more to the point, you don’t tell me what I believe or don’t believe. The very attempt to do that to anyone is self-evidently absurd. I know exactly what I believe on the matter and I’ve just reiterated it. That might be inconvenient to you because I don’t fit your stick-figure stereotypes of theists, but that’s your problem, not mine. For the upteenth time, my critique of atheism is not that atheists are any worse or better than anyone. It’s that atheism contributes nothing to the goodness I see in atheists; plus it fails to provide any philosophical basis or rationale for the real, the true, and the good to be objective categories to which we can appeal. It provides zero basis for asserting that human rights are real and concrete things which no government dare violate…..even though many human rights activists are in fact atheists.

  • Jack

    Sorry, Ronald, for the angry reply, but I don’t like our being mischaracterized as justifying flat-out murder.

  • Jack

    Thanks Garson. Time, manner, and place do matter with all parades.

  • Larry

    “You ARE a bigot”

    Said the woman who openly supports legalized discrimination.

    “LOL! Well, that’s the most imaginative excuse for bigotry I’ve heard in a long time”

    I feel the same way every time I read your posts on this sort of thing. 🙂

  • Larry

    “But more to the point, you don’t tell me what I believe or don’t believe.”

    Get bent. You do that to everyone else on a regular basis. In fact that was precisely what you were trying to do with me previously.

    You love slinging ad hominems and setting up little strawman premises that others allegedly ascribe to. Love telling people what “they really believe” and must accept as part of their “ideology”.

    So go peddle your indignation elsewhere.

  • Dominic

    I never blamed the victims at all. I simply said the gays could be a little bit more sensitive to the rest of the world. Jerusalem, and it doesn’t matter which part, is considered one of the world’s holiest cities. Negative reactions are almost assured, so why instigate incidents of hate when so many other cities would welcome such a display of the dubious pride in being gay? I don’t even know what that means, really. It is not an achievement of any kind…..so what’s to be proud of?

  • Shawnie5

    “My sins are not your problem unless they are sins against you.”

    Re-read what I said. I am not talking about individual “sins” but SIN in the aggregate. The universal tendency to put self and its wants in the place of God. It is the root of all of the world’s evil.

    “And yet that precisely describes the attitude of people like yourself. Those who consider themselves so above reproach that they can pass judgment on the sins of others.”

    There are no instances of ANY of us claiming that, because none of us are above reproach–that is a sine qua non of the Gospel. Just like Jack has never claimed all atheists are immoral. That’s how ingrained your bigotry is; you can not even hear anything we say because the stereotypes you’re so invested in get in the way. Clean the gunk out of your ears–the difference will amaze you.

    Although Ben has been known to wax eloquent on the subject of his many excellent qualities…

  • Shawnie5

    “You love slinging ad hominems and setting up little strawman premises that others allegedly ascribe to. Love telling people what “they really believe” and must accept as part of their “ideology”.”

    Ruh-roh! Larry’s sock puppet is chomping at the bit… 😀

  • Shawnie5

    Well, at least you didn’t attempt to deny your bigotry. Thanks for being that honest, at least.

  • Curious

    Jack, Dominic (just to take one example) said that the stabbing victims “instigated” their own stabbings. How is that different from what Ronald said?

  • The Great God Pan

    “Many devout Jews, Muslims and Christians criticize homosexuality as an abomination of their beliefs.”

    Was this attack an example of the “interfaith activism” I keep hearing about from the cool Social Justice kids?

  • Jack

    Right, Shawnie. It’s called road record.

  • Jack

    I didn’t notice that, Curious, and after reading your post, I reread the post of Dominic’s to which I responded and didn’t see that at all. He was making two separate points and I attempted to respond to both.

  • Jack

    Curious, I found the post where he used the word, “instigated” and I read and reread it. There is nothing in it that compared to what Ronald wrote. Dominic condemned the murders and continues to do so. Not so with Ronald, who ended with “the stabber must be released,” and along the way equated the stabbing with freedom of conscience. Nobody on this board has said or implied anything like that, including Dominic.

  • Doc Anthony

    Oh, and Larry, there’s something I meant to tell you the other day. (I’m sure I’ll get a chance to repeat it.)

    Unlike you, I’ve seen a smidgen of the damage that predators can cause with boys. Unlike you, I’ve had to do a little counseling with a few of those boys. I know it’s chic these days to utterly deny that gay guys or older gay kids are doing ANYTHING with or to boys or male teens, but the fact is that this abuse is STILL happening.

    In fact, a current Missouri gubernatorial candidate, state Sen. Bob Dixon, has openly stated that his years of homosexuality as a teenager were caused by being abused by an older, homosexual, person.

    So you are welcome to speak out of your ignorance, (as always), but be aware that I will label it as such.

  • Doc Anthony

    In other words, you don’t like it when your broad-brushing over a hate crime is turned back against you?

    Well I’m glad you don’t. Maybe you’ll think about things as a result. (Or maybe you won’t, but I hope you will).

    We’ll just have to agree to disagree about the “slander and reviling lie” situation, given my willingness to support what I say and given your refusal to listen to any of that supporting information.

  • Lorenzo

    No indeed, but as The Onion (I believe) put it, these groups can confidently tell the public to ‘rest assured that most of our clients are perfectly straight by the time they commit suicide.’

  • Be Brave

    Ben,

    Your answer is: Barack Insane Obama.

    He keeps supporting Jihadists to slaughter Christians to extinction. Now he’s on to Jews by empowering Iran to to gain the power they need to crush Israel to dust.

    You are the typical, common politically activist homosexual. You are driven to force everyone to celebrate your sexual behavior. We saw a glimpse of these kinds in Genesis Chapter 19. Man how nothing has changed at all.

    That Christians refuse to condone and celebrate your desires and sexual actions, enrages you and your kind like it did Lot’s neighbors. That there are Christians that breath, live and act as did the Apostles seems to enrage so many of your kind. You know, liberals, progressives, atheists, Democrats et al.

    It is somewhat exciting to see the Bible so vividly proven as accurate yet again. But also sad that so many are now defining true repentance as a hate crime.

  • Be Brave

    Cranmer,

    Pray all you’d like. But take the hypocrisy out of them. I do not see repentance as a hate crime and bigotry. You need to pray for the unrepentant congenital excuse crowd for that. And I will never bow a knee to the rainbow idol. If you want to pray for me, pray that I can be a Christian in the anti-Christ world of the increasingly powerful gay agenda as it takes its dark authority into The Church. But I won’t hold my breath that you will stop the evil stalking The Church. Prophecy is very certain proclamation. The world and its ways have been so sickened by the lascivious and licentious, that as the LGBT legions gain power, I will look forward to the escapees of this horror and will present the same Gospel to them as did Jesus and His Apostles. Pray for that pal.

  • Be Brave

    Is there some good reason why homosexuals need to proclaim and parade their chosen sexual behaviors to everyone in society? Can there be logic in society anymore? Desires for sexual behavior need to be a private issue.

    Pride in gay behavior should be a personal, behind closed doors behavior that those that choose this behavior need to celebrate. Not ALL in the world.

    Why does everyone have to endure the choice sexual behaviors of the “LGBT” imbibers?

    Same goes for the violent. If you want to be violent, join a special forces group in the military.

  • Cranmer

    You must have trouble understanding logic or be deficient in higher-level language comprehension skills. Be Brave tried to equate peaceful (as in non-violent) activism with the violent rampage of a man who stabbed and probably intended to murder at lest six individuals. There is no equivalence there and both of you have obscured the issue. I love that in the comments on an article about right wing violence against GLBTQ people you have added your own vitriol in the name of a Gospel you don’t even comprehend.

  • Cranmer

    If you’ve read the Gospel or anything about Christian history and theology you’ll quickly see that its a religion of underdogs. Jesus is rejected by the world and so are his followers — for you and other ‘Christians’ to rail against the loss of your cultural privilege is ironic at best and dangerous at worst since Christ encouraged his people to understand themselves as essentially the underdogs, not the rulers. That’s the big point you’ve missed.

  • Shawnie5

    What “vitriol” would that be, exactly?

    Of course from a purely fallen and human perspective there is no “equivalence,” just as there is a precancerous mole and end-stage melanoma are not equivalent, but you sawed the branch off behind you by dragging the Gospel into it. Jesus’ entire ministry was a repudiation of “moral equivalence,” because His primary focus was the universal root of evil, not the individual manifestations of it. Both overt violence and what you call “peaceful activism” (aimed at bullying and retaliation) are manifestations of the sinful root which is summed up in the words
    ” Me…Me…Me.”

    Go back and re-read the Gospels. ALL of it, not just the Hallmark card verses.

  • Ben in oakland

    Jack, I have to agree with you in one sense: it is necessary to distinguish nuance. But I’m not an ideologue, except in one sense as well: 2000 years of anti-gay oppression must end. But that does not blind me to Nuance. If, for example, there was the slightest indication that gay men were any more of a danger to children than your average straight man – and we are not – I would be the first in line to say keep us away from children.

    But we are not.

    Tony Perkins is a grifter, and he has been working the grift for quite a while, at the expense of innocent gay people. He demonizes us, certainly. But he makes money at it. And he lives in a civilized country.

    But then, so did Hitler in the thirties.

    And no, I’m not comparing the two, not the way say, Doc Anthony talks about the Homo fascist boots on the necks of poor, victimized Christians,

    Perkins is constrained by one fact only: calling for our deaths will onlythe speed the process of marginalizing him.

  • Ben in oakland

    Please keep spewing. It only helps us. And thanks, by the way, for changing the subject to what you said to President Obama. You said it, but you really don’t want to own it.

    Any comments, Jack?

  • Ben in oakland

    Jack, I really don’t believe you sometimes. No one has demanded that anyone celebrate my marriage. No one is demanding that so-called Christians be fine or jaiLed for refusing to do so: that is a right wing lie, used to proclaim their victimhood.

    What has been demanded is that people obey nondiscrimination laws, both for religion and for sexual orientation, and not The some sort of exception to them, which merely underlines why we have them in the first place.

    This so-called tactical overreach is nothing that we have done, but it’s something that the Christian right – as evidenced by the comments of doc and be brave– have managed to magic into being.

    I’ll say it one more time: believe whatever you like, but keep your prejudices disguised as “sincere religious belief” out of secular law. If you can’t do that, expect a fight.

    And expect to lose. The majority of America is not on the anti-gay side.

  • Ben in oakland

    Sin is the underlying problem of human nature for you, but that’s because you are a pustulant, pustulating pustule of sin, so much so that your God had to atone to himself to redeem you.

    I have a much different view of humanity: most of us are just here trying to do the best we can. Most people are pretty decent, and some of us commit a great deal of evil, often in the name of your God who is love.

    Meanwhile, as always, I note that you don’t condemn the violent thoughts of our resident homobigots anymore than you ever have. Instead, you turn it around to play “who is the bigger bigot.” I categorically reject the equivalence that you try to apply. I don’t wish any Christian, so called or otherwise, any harm.

    I just want you to stop trying to harm us, and pretending that it’s all about love Or “sin” or God. It’s not now, nor has it ever been, about that. As Jesus said, learn to focus on your own sins.

  • Ben in oakland

    Not even close, Shawnee.

    don’t Try to put me in the same category as a resident Homobigots.
    As I’ve said many times, if you so-called Christians would just learn to mind your own business, focus on your own sins in your own faith, and leave the rest of us the hell alone, you’d be surprised how little we actually care about you. But you have to make it all about you, about how you are the victims, and we’re just mean Homosexuals daring to say no to 2000 years of vilifications, Tortures, prisons, destroyed lives, families, and careers, murders and suicides.

    you will simply not own the kind of thinking that be brave, doc, and our resident sodomist produce daily and use to justify the harm you have inflicted on us.

    I say THIS as a born Jew: This Jewish fascist is responsible for the death of a 16-year-old girl. 2000 years of Homo hatred is responsible for this Jewish fascist, and the mindset of people just like him.

    There is no getting around that.

  • Ben in oakland

    I’ve listen to you, and I have pointed out the flaws in everything that you have had to say, flaws that of been pointed out by every single court case where this list of our so called “atrocities” has been trotted out.

  • Ben in oakland

    Exactly can do the same thing be said of the far right, especially the far right is exhibited by this vicious murderer in Israel, especially the far right as exhibited by our own resident Homo bigots.

  • Jack

    Sure, Ben. Prove that Be Brave is wrong about your side wanting to persecute Christians and others who disagree with gay marriage by standing up for the right of small business people not to do gay weddings if their conscience bars it. Besides being wrong on its face, demanding that they violate their conscience is an astounding political blunder. It will succeed in uniting anti-gay-marriage forces with pro-gay marriage people concerned about First Amendment freedoms in a nation that venerates such liberties.

  • Jack

    The majority of American people, Ben, are on the First Amendment side….that’s my point. But bullying small business people who have no problem whatsoever serving all people, straight or gay, but only object to a particular request of someone being served, is a strategic blunder. These sorts of mistakes in politics are usually the result either of hubris or the inherent radicalism of the leaders of a cause — those whose demands are never limited to securing a legal right, but reach beyond it. That is the essence of the difference between liberalism and radicalism.

  • ben in oakland

    All you are doing is arguing Christian exceptionalism. If you don’t like laws that forbid discrimination on the basis of religious beliefs, then get rid of those laws. But trying to find exceptions to them based upon something as absurd as “the bible says” just tells us why we have them in the first place.

    Melissa’s cakes had no problems making cakes for all kinds of explicit sinners. Kim Davis won’t issue marriage licenses, despite her own four marriages. Surely the men in her life didn’t all commit adultery? All have no problem with people who reject the entirety of their sincere religious beliefs, not just the antigay parts.

    And all any of those cake martyrs have to do is say “I’m booked.” But no one should have to walk into a shop and be told “We don’t serve your kind here.” Pretending that it is only about marriage when the whole of the anti-marriage campaigns have been homobigoted down to their very core is just ignoring the obvious.

  • Jack

    Until Menachem Begin, Israel had left-of-center governments…..since Begin, it has had both right-of-center and left-of-center governments. But neither was extremist, thank goodness.

    But if some of the self-styled post-Zionists in Israel ever took power, Israel would be in trouble.

  • Jack

    Ben, you’re skimming over nuances that really do matter in real people’s lives.

    A friend once put it this way to me after the 9/11 attacks:

    Pat Robertson and ACLU have a lot more in common with each other than either of them does with al Qaeda.

    Before 9/11, we could play all sorts of silly rhetorical games. After 9/11 we stopped for awhile. Too bad we eventually went back to business as usual.

  • Ben in Oakland

    I am absolutely on the side of the first amendment, jack. That’s why I absolutely supoort religious non-discrimination laws, and oppose the idea that a certain of class of so called Christian ought to be exempt from them.

    It is VERY VERY telling that the only place that these so called religious beliefs come up, as to why those Christian don’t have to provide the same services as they do to every other person who rejects some or all of their religious beliefs, is when this handful of cake martyrs has to treat gay people the same as all of the rest of the people whom they believe are going to burn in hell forever.

    THE ONLY PLACE. It almost would make you think that it isn’t about their beliefs, but their prejudices.

    As I say: either these laws apply to everyone, or they should be gotten rid of. But I suppose these so called Christians will howl if that little bit of fairness applied to THEM.

  • Ben in Oakland

    Is there some good reason why heterosexuals need to proclaim and parade their chosen sexual behaviors to everyone in society? Can there be logic in society anymore? Desires for sexual behavior need to be a private issue.

    Pride in hetero behavior should be a personal, behind closed doors behavior that those that choose this behavior need to celebrate. Not ALL in the world.

    Why does everyone have to endure the choice sexual behaviors of the “Heterosexual” imbibers? I mean, your photos are on Your desks, and you parade down the street holding hands, and even the products of your sexual behavior are there for everyone to see.

    Same goes for the violent. If you want to be violent, join a special forces group in the military.

  • ben in oakland

    See my comment below, jack.

    when they either give up the right to protection from religious discrimination for themselves, OR start discriminating against all of their biblical offenders, and not just gay people, we can perhaps start to believe that they are not just asking for ONE PARTICULAR, for reasons of extreme prejudice of a very ancient and durable nature. exception to non-discrimination laws.

    I doubt we’re going to see this coalition. The majority of americans according to every credible poll I’ve seen, don’t think discrimination on the basis of religious belief is a good idea, not even when it is applied to gay people.

    The over-reach, as has already been shown, is always on the part of the religious right.

  • Jack

    Refusing to serve a customer because they’re gay and refusing a particular request by a customer — gay or straight — are not the same thing. The distinction between the two suggests how society can honor both civil rights and the First Amendment.

  • Jack

    No, Ben, obviously I’m not arguing for “Christian exceptionalism,” because as a conscience matter, this is not limited to Christians but includes devout Muslims, Orthodox Jews and others in the marketplace whose conscience would be violated. I’m for recognizing the common-sense, real-world distinction between refusing to serve a customer because of who or what that customer is versus refusing a particular request by a customer. Any one of us, including you, can come up with an infinite number of requests that we would expect a business person to decline.

    When we obliterate that distinction, we have crossed over from being a nation that rightly stands for the civil rights of all to being a nation that countenances trampling on the First Amendment rights of some.

  • ben in oakland

    It’s only a matter of conscience for the ultra religious, and only when it comes to gay people. So call it religious exceptionalism rather than Christian exceptionalism.

    sorry, that just doesn’t wash. You still haven’t explained why they get to be exceptional when it comes to gay people who reject just the itty bitty bit of antigay religious belief, but doesn’t apply when Jews and muslims cannot get away with declaring that the entire idea of jesus being the son of god and the redeemer of sins is blasphemy against god.

    nor have you answered why discrimination IN THIS MATTER is not really discrimination.

  • Jack

    Not so, Ben. I can think of many instances besides gay marriage where a business person would tell someone, “no, that particular thing you’re asking me to do is something I cannot do.” A business person who believes that sex outside of marriage is wrong would have a problem with an inscription on a cake which celebrated it.

    The bottom line is that in a civil society, people should, without any prompting, respect each other’s right to obey the dictates of their conscience so long as nobody is being denied service because of who or what the person is. Thus, it is wrong to deny a gay person a service simply because that person is gay….but it also is wrong to demand that a business person accede to every conceivable customer demand irrespective of conscience. We must respect a person’s civil rights on the one hand, and another’s First Amendment rights on the other.

  • Ben in oakland

    Nonsense, Jack. It’s not “every single conceivable customer demand.” It’s asking them to make the same cake that they make for everyone else, especially all of the other people they believe are going to burn in hell forever. Melissa sweetcakes had no trouble making cakes for every pagan notion and sexually immoral eventpossible. But it was asking too much to ask her to treat gay people like everyone else.

    It’s asking them to be good Christians, and treat others as they would like to be treated. Remember somebody that used to be important to Christianity said that that was a good idea.

    It’s asking them to obey the laws that govern all of us, not to try to find exceptions to those laws, especially when the exception exists only for one class of people. That’s called being a good American citizen.

    They are not being asked for their approval, opinion, or participation but a cake. They shouldn’t be rewarded for poor business sense or being unable to say “I’m booked.”