• Bernardo

    As per the theologian Scillebeeckx there is no hell and heaven if it exists is a spirit state as per JP II and Aquinas. And since spirits can’t drink, there is no concern about being drunk in heaven (or hell if you stick with JP II and Aquinas).

    And Matt 7: 13-23 along with its equivalents in Luke 13 fails rigorous historic testing making said passages historically nil. Most are single attestations found no where else in the scriptures. e.g.

    http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb041.html

    http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb111.html

    http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb138.html

    http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb163.html

    http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb165.html

  • Greg1

    Hell is strictly spiritual. Once the soul is separated from the body, it is like a magnet that is obsessively drawn to God, and if that soul is eternally cast from His Presence, then it remains in sheer agony. And of course the Devil, and his demons torture those in hell as well.

  • Fran

    Hell, also known as Sheol (Old Testament) and Hades (New Testament is simply the common grave of dead mankind (as well as dead animals). The dead there are sleeping in death, not aware of anything (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10).

    God’s love is the epitome of his personality, and he would never ever torment anyone, even the dead, in a place of fiery torment forever (1 John 4:8), altho many wish it. Satan has not yet been in the grave (nor in a place of torment that doesn’t exist), but he will eventually meet eternal death.

    Genesis 2:7 explains God formed man out of the dust of the ground, blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and he BECAME a living SOUL, or person. Every soul or person has distinct physical characteristics and personalities.

    Ezekiel 18:4 says that “the SOUL that sinneth, it SHALL DIE”; thus, there is no immortality of the soul at this time. But, the benefits of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus and his millennial rule will soon put an end to that.

  • Kyle

    Stop preaching your false works-based Gospel all over this website using the same misinterpreted Scriptures and different screen names. We are saved by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9) and are kept in Christ’s hand until He takes us home (John 10:28). Disobedient believers will lose their rewards, not their salvation (1Cor3:15). You must rightly divide the word of truth between justification and sanctification.

  • Kyle

    On what authority do you discredit passages from the Bible?

  • Fran

    Rionni,

    Then when millions of souls/persons are resurrected back to life on earth from their graves (John 5:28, 29; Acts 24:15) during the upcoming millennial rule of God’s kingdom, that fact will confirm, without any reasonable doubt:

    (1) Whether the hellfire doctrine is true or false; (2) whether the grave/unconscious death teaching is true or false; and (3) whether or not Matthew 13 is a parable of Jesus, telling morals through a story, or is literal.

    So let’s see what happens then, since the truth will be so very obvious.

  • Betty Clermont

    “the pope’s broader wish to create a ‘poor church’ and push through his ambitious reform agenda”?? If the pope wants a poor church he could instruct the Vatican, his bishops and superiors of religious orders to divest some of their incalculable assets and give it to the poor. After 2 1/2 years, his “ambitious reform agenda” for the Vatican consists of replacing his predecessor’s loyalists with his own which he accomplished in less than a year in the area of finance.

  • Greg1

    Fran, When a person dies, the body goes into the ground, back to dust, but the soul goes to God for Judgment (Ecclesiates 12:7, Heb 9:27). And the soul is then Judged, and sent to its proper place: We see for example the soul of the rich man begging the soul of Lazarus to give him some water to cool his tongue which was in agony (Luke 16:24). That is because he used his tongue (words) to belittle Lazarus and deny him in his life. That was hell. Lazarus was in the holding chamber called Abraham’s bosom, awaiting Christ to open the gates of heaven after his Resurrection (Eph. 4:8). What will rise from the grave at the end of time is the resurrected body, which will be reunited with the soul (2Cor 5:1-5). The first resurrection is the resurrection of the soul at baptism (Colossians 2:12-13), the second resurrection is the resurrection of the body at the end of time (1Cor 15:52). As for the word dead, or die in the bible, it can mean physically dead, spiritually dead, or hell.

  • Greg1

    Betty, the pope knows those he has appointed, and they can be trusted. Sadly, some of the bishops at the Vatican have been corrupted by the world, and will stand in Judgement in their own time. The Church needs to exist in this world, but not be of this world. And if one looks back over the past two thousand years, one will see how every time the Church has become worldly, God Almighty has acted to turn the tide back the other way. In our day He is using Francis.

  • Bernardo

    And now a word from a Catholic theologian:

    Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary theologian, has a different take on hell. He reasons that his god does not tolerate imperfection in his spiritual realm. Therefore, any soul dying in mortal sin will simply disappear since hell the imperfect state does not exist.

    And his book, Church: The Human Story of God, Schillebeeckx says,

    “Christians (et al) must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history.”

    “Nothing is determined in advance: in nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices.

    Therefore the historical future is not known even to God, otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings.

    For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women.”

    i.e. No one, not even God (if one…

  • Bernardo

    Thorough review followed by rational thinking followed by rational conclusions.

  • ben in oakland

    How dare you attribute morality to the font of morality, and rational thought to the fount of reason.

    is there no end to your bigotry?

  • ben in oakland

    ” He reasons………”

    As opposed to all of the rest of the theologians of all of the rest of the one true faiths who just make scheiss up.

  • ben in oakland

    They must have been corrupted by the world, because it couldn’t possibly be that they have been corrupted by the one true church.

    Martin Luther’s 95 theses pretty much destroyed the idea that the church was anything good, but corrupt to the core.

  • Greg1

    Martin Luther pointed out some real issues at the time. Where he went wrong, was separating himself from the One True Church, and starting his own. His mission was noble up to that point. BTW: the only thing protected by God Almighty, is the Church’s official moral Teachings, not its human practices. Those are not protected, as every living person has the free will to succumb to the Devil, or resist him. Those choices are for each person to make. For example, the pope also goes to confession to be loosed from his sins.

  • Bernardo

    As did P, M, M, L, and J.. Recent rigorous historic testing of their publications conclude that only 10-30% of the NT is authentic.

    And the OT? There is good reason to believe that Abraham and Moses were both myths putting the kibosh on most if not all of said book.

  • Kyle

    Actually re-read that passage. It is commonly misinterpreted by Lordship salvationists.

    “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    Those people will rely on their works to save them. Not on grace. The only work of God is to “believe on him whom he hath sent” (John 6:29). You are right that we shouldn’t continue in our sins. We were saved unto good works; however, that has nothing to do with our salvation, which is completely free. To address some of your above claims: 1Cor5 is about exercising church discipline on a errant brother, not about salvation. 1Cor6:9-12 and Galatians 5:12-26 have to do with not living like unbelievers. Its an exhortation not to imitate those who won;t inherit the Kingdom of God. In Revelation 3, “overcoming” is referring to those who overcome by faith in Christ Jesus and wash their garments in His blood (1John5:5).

  • ben in Oakland

    Why should she stop? Just because her theology disagrees with yours? You can always exercise your much wanted free will and choose not to read her comments, let alone respond to them.

    Or you could just hug yourself with biblical glee in the certain knowledge that she is going to be spending time burning in hell, while you will be among the elect in heaven. One or both of you believe in the elect getting to heaven, don’t you? Don’t you think it’ll be interesting to find out who was right?

    I know I would.

  • ben in Oakland

    Well, Bernardo, according to Francis Collins, geneticist and scientist extraordinaire, as well as evangelical Christian, the Gospels were compiled by near eyewitnesses – and I quote.

    And another note that’s really the same, holy relics come in three categories: First class relics are those which are allegedly what they claim to be: a piece of a saint or something holy. The standard of proof for most first class relics is appallingly low, as the existence of so many holy foreskins show. Second-class relics are things that were used by Saints or holy people, like the sauce pot (!) of the Patriarch Abraham in Istanbul. Third class relics are similar items that have touched the holy item in question. That’s a loophole you could drive a very large cathedral through, and explains why there are so many crowns of thorns and pieces of the true cross. Anything can be anything, if only you believe hard enough.

    So, in the Gospels’ case, a miss is as good as a mile.

  • ben in Oakland

    His mission was noble, up to a point? The issues haven’t changed, including child molesting priests and a love of worldly wealth.

    This is Luther, “up to a point”:

    but that I feel myself a debtor to my brethren, and am bound to take thought for them, that fewer of them may be ruined, or that their ruin may be less complete, by the plagues of Rome…These things are clearer than the light to all men; and the Church of Rome, formerly the most holy of all Churches, has become the most lawless den of thieves, the most shameless of all brothels, the very kingdom of sin, death, and hell; so that not even antichrist, if he were to come, could devise any addition to its wickedness.

    Hard to improve on that.

  • Two things:(1),NO ONE who’s never been dead can comment in any meaningful sense concerning Heaven/Hell; if Shillebeeckx,or any other theologian,living or dead,has a supposed”perspective”on either place different from The Lord God’s own,it’s simply false,I don’t care how many alphabets you have trailing your name. (2),I didn’t get the memo that Almighty God had relinquished Who He is in favor of any mere human.Mull and reflect,people.To paraphrase the great Prophet Elijah,”If the Lord be God,then serve,obey,and believe Him,if not,then believe any and everybody else.I’ve sure what’s behind the tendency even among presumed Christians to glom onto whatever so-called”scholar”that comes along who seems determined to undermine the Word of God and blatantly label His spokesmen/spokeswomen as liars,but I have no problem defending Holy Writ,because this isn’t just some pseudo-intellectual exercise; I rejoice in loving God with EVERYTHING that’s in me,and hatred of Almighty God…

  • Bernardo

    God?

  • Bernardo

    Ben in Oakland,

    For those that do not have a copy of Father Brown’s book on the New Testament:

    From Father Ray Brown’s 878-paged, thorough review of the New Testament, Doubleday, New York, 1996, p. 172, (with Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur.

    (with regard to Matthew’s Gospel)

    Date: 80-90 AD,give or take a decade

    Author detectable from contents: A Greek-speaker, who knew Aramaic or Hebrew or both and was not an eyewitness of Jesus’ ministry, drew on Mark and a collection of sayings of the Lord (Q) as well as on other available traditions oral or written. Probably a Jewish Christian.”

  • Bernardo

    One more time:

    Matt 7: 13-23 along with its equivalents in Luke 13 fails rigorous historic testing making said passages historically nil. Most are single attestations found no where else in the scriptures. e.g.

    http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb041.html

    http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb111.html

    http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb138.html

    http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb163.html

    http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb165.html

  • Greg1

    When Luther broke the body of Christ he went too far. The church is one and to do what he did violates our Lord’s plea at the last supper in john’s gospel: let them be one

  • ben in oakland

    no argument form me, Bernardo. I think the whole thing is silly.

  • Mary

    Well, I thought Pope Benedict was still at CG, and naturally most pilgrims would go where the current Pope is. I cannot get to Rome or CG now (age, no money) so neither was an option, but I wouldn’t have known that Benedict has moved on.

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  • Byzcat

    Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28.
    Man is a composite of both body and soul. At the last judgement the dead shall be raised. Those who are just will be raised to everlasting beatitude, those who are not will suffer eternal suffering. “At that time there shall arise Michael, the great prince, guardian of your people; It shall be a time unsurpassed in distress since the nation began until that time. At that time your people shall escape, everyone who is found written in the book. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake; Some to everlasting life, others to reproach and everlasting disgrace.” Daniel 12:1-2.