4 reasons Hillary Clinton should apologize for her inflammatory abortion rhetoric (COMMENTARY)

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Former first lady Hillary Clinton departs St. Ignatius Loyola Church following fashion designer Oscar de la Renta's memorial service in the Manhattan borough of New York on November 3, 2014. Photo courtesy of REUTERS/Carlo Allegri
*Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-HILLARY-FAITH, originally transmitted on April 8, 2015.

Former first lady Hillary Clinton departs St. Ignatius Loyola Church following fashion designer Oscar de la Renta's memorial service in the Manhattan borough of New York on November 3, 2014. Photo courtesy of REUTERS/Carlo Allegri
*Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-HILLARY-FAITH, originally transmitted on April 8, 2015.

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(RNS) Hillary Clinton shouldn’t label an opposing position as “extreme” just because she doesn’t agree with it.

  • Jon

    Yes, it is extreme to try to ban abortion with the only exceptions of rape, incest, and the life of the mother. Your own cited data (24 and 36%) shows that.

    Yes, groups like ISIL and the Taliban do oppose a woman’s choice to have an abortion.

    Yes, some Republican candidates do voice the extreme position of taking away a woman’s choice as mentioned above. You can check for yourself. http://ballotpedia.org/2016_presidential_candidates_on_abortion

    Mrs. Clinton has simply stated the truth. I’m sorry you are uncomfortable with it. There are plenty of countries where abortions are banned, such as Iran. I don’t think we should try to be like them.

  • Charles Brown

    Puh-leese

    Mind your own business.
    You don’t want an abortion? Don’t have one.

    When you demonstrate the same outrage over starving children, children being bombed and poisoned by our government, and children being raised in abject poverty, and ghettos… then you tell us all about how much you care about about “babies”.

    And if Yourgod really cared about “babies”… you wouldn’t have anything to worry about.

  • USMAMULE

    She doesn’t owe anyone an apology for telling the truth. GOP candidates are talking openly about using the military to stop abortion, defunding ALL healthcare provided by one of the essential providers to poor women, even though 97% of their services are not abortion related. Other candidates at the national and local level regularly advance bills outlawing abortion without regard to the health of the mother, or exceptions for cases of rape or incest. On top of the above, “Pro-Lifers” regularly engage in terrorist actions (bombings and murder of doctors). They are nothing is not extremists.

  • Dominic

    Her rhetoric on abortion is revolting to say the least. And her being a mother herself only makes it more so.
    What is so ” modern world” about abortion? A modern, civilized world should have progressed to a stage of rational alternatives to killing our own species. A fetus is not an active limb of a woman’s body, but a human life created with the aid of another human being. She only has the right and duty to allow it to thrive until it is able to live outside of her. Anything else is premeditated murder.
    Clinton is running desperate now, soon she will be unelectable…..than God. How women can respond so positively to her “feminist” positions is equally strange and self-degrading. Mothers are, in many ways, the most powerful people on earth. They develop the next generation. Why would anyone advocate killing them?

  • Philly_Guy

    There is no need to apologize for telling the truth in a non-abusive, non-inflammatory manner. Just because you can’t handle the truth that Sec. Clinton is pointing out, doesn’t mean she should apologize for pointing out the fallacies in your beliefs.

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  • Kay

    This piece seems to be full of misleading statements. Pro-choice people are not for abortion at any time, for any reason.

    Scott Walker compared teachers to ISIS…now that’s extreme. Pro-life proponents celebrate the murder of an abortion doctor. That’s extreme.

  • Jon

    Right.

    It’s important to recognize that people like Trevin Wax are just “opposed to abortion”. They are “opposed to letting others have abortions”.

    If you have a problem with abortion, then just don’t have one. But don’t go around trying to use the force of law to prevent other people from their own health choices.

    It’s pretty simple.

  • TIm

    in response to the numbered points above:

    1) the anti-choice position itself is not terribly extreme.. but, harassing women attempting to obtain medical services, fire-bombing and assassinating doctors, and driving campaigns based entirely on lies and exaggerations are all VERY extreme actions and positions

    2) this is what I mean with “talking points” being based on lies.. like any literate adult is going to think that Democrats want to do away with all regulations for specific medical procedures

    3) The comparison to ISIS is a bit silly.. but, the two groups ARE predominately guided by barbaric religious nonsense with little to no concern for people who wish to live their lives by modern standards

    4) Ok.. so there’s not a “war on women”.. there’s just a massive effort to deprive women of access to affordable health services by spreading deceit and rhetoric – I’m not sure why the leaders of regressive groups being female is relevant.. that’s like saying ethnic…

  • Clifford Garstang

    No apologies necessary or appropriate. In fact, the “Christian” Right in this country is very much like the Taliban, seeking to impose its irrational superstitions on the rest of us. (Furthermore, you’ve misrepresented the Democrats and Hillary Clinton in a number of ways–something else the Right excels at.)

  • TIm

    would you like some dressing to go with that word salad?

  • Sara

    Glad most commenters here (so far) are calling out this nonsense. This is so completely full of non-facts. Most people actually do support abortion access in at least some or all cases. Implying that MLK held the same opinion as his niece is inaccurate, not to mention that her opinion itself is based on inaccuracies. And if you haven’t seen by now that the sting videos were grossly altered and don’t actual show what CMP claimed, then you’re just lying to yourself.

    Oh, and it’s not pro-choicers who shoot up anti-abortion offices in an attempt to scare people into doing what they want. It’s anti-abortionists who do that and that is the very definition of terrorist.

  • Kathy Johnston

    She has nothing to apologize about. I remember when abortion was illegal and there is no way any sane person would want to go back to those times. Religious people should mind their own business, live their lives as they see fit and have enough respect to let others do the same.

  • Terrell Lewis

    Perhaps if Republicans would quit telling lies about Hillary Clinton, Hillary Clinton will quit telling the truth about Republicans.

  • Dominic

    So, Christians act similar to the Taliban? When did Christians last behead, burn alive, shoot, or toss off roofs non-belivers?
    How is the Christian ideology damaging to secular ideology? Christians respect all life. Society says some lives are dispensable. Christians understand the natural ingredients for marriage. Society has decided to call disorder “order”.
    Where is the harm? Christianity is a living belief that strives to improve the world, not an archaic, dead set of rules that no longer apply to humanity. Society on its own is a monstrous idea, for its values change on mere whims or theories.

  • MonaLS

    No apology required. Abortion is never easy, but sometimes it is the only option.

  • Dominic

    What about those emails that are found missing every other week? She’s going down. She’s a cheap liar and a political disaster.

  • bqrq

    Hillary should apologize to the family of Vince Foster.

  • Cam

    “So, Christians act similar to the Taliban? When did Christians last behead, burn alive, shoot, or toss off roofs non-belivers?”

    Just a few hundred years ago, actually. Look it up. Christianity used to be just as evil and violent as Islam, if not more so. The world should put both religions aside.

  • Cam

    bqrq, you should apologize to humanity for being such an embarrassment to it.

  • John H. Short

    Mind your own business.
    Yay Hillary!!!

    You don’t want an abortion? Don’t have one.

    When you try to force your superstitions on the rest of us, then you are an extremist. Especially when your superstitions see nothing wrong with – and everything right with – mass murder of all humans on earth, incest, and genocide.

    When you try to create sharia law in the United States as you are doing, then you are an extremist.

    When you think it’s right to force an 11 year old raped girl to have a baby, then you are an extremist.

    And if your imaginary god really cared about babies, he would be making sure that you were spending your time feeding them and treating their diseases, not forcing them to be born and then ignoring them.

  • Wonderbug

    I would have said a lot worse than “extreme” but yes, in this day and age, making any argument that women don’t deserve the same legal rights to their own bodies as men have is absurd. I also don’t think it is fair for people who are so against women having the same legal rights to their bodies as men to claim that they are for human rights when obviously they only care about one gender.

  • kelly

    George Tiller. Yes. They are the American Talliban. PLUS they support groups in Africa that kill and behead gays.

  • Deacon John M Bresnahan

    Hillary Clinton (like Donald Trump) drags down debate to new lower levels. Hillary has now added “terrorist” to her list of invectives directed at people who disagree with her.

  • Larry

    Another useless ultra-conservative rant by Trevin Wax courtesy of his paymasters of the Southern Baptist Convention.

    How about various republican candidates start apologizing for their inflamatory rhetoric about:
    -Women being incapable of being impregnated by rape
    -About women lying about rape to get abortions (as if that is necessary)
    -Women being better off dying in back alley abortions
    -The constant s1utshaming involved in anti-abortion rhetoric
    -Using defamation and lies in order to attack people providing healthcare for poor women.
    -Excusing actions when abortion doctors are murdered or clinics attacked.

    We know that is not going to come either.

    Anti-abortion rhetoric IS extremist. It has no rational basis and relies entirely on hysteria, emotional appeals and outright lying if necessary

  • Larry

    Actually calling Alveda King a “civil rights activist” is a fiction. The woman thinks credentials and leadership come from DNA, not accomplishments. Anyone referencing Alveda King seriously and calling to her family background is full of crap.

    The crazy women even had the nerve to attack Coretta Scott King by saying, at least she had MLK’s DNA in her.

  • Larry

    “So, Christians act similar to the Taliban? When did Christians last behead, burn alive, shoot, or toss off roofs non-belivers?”

    As part of their religious faith, early 1990’s. Otherwise you can look to Russia or Robert Bales of the USA in 2012.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bales

    “Christians understand the natural ingredients for marriage. ”

    Like Josh Duggar. He knew marriage involved sexual abuse of siblings, adultery and lying like a cheap rug. A perfect Christian in every respect. 🙂

  • John

    “When did Christians last behead, burn alive, shoot, or toss off roofs non-belivers?”

    Last year, in the Central African Republic, next question?

  • Deacon John M Bresnahan

    Of course there is a living human with a heartbeat and brainwaves also involved as a victim (a baby). Video pictures and modern technology have very much undercut the medieval notion that life in the womb is just a blob. It has also confirmed that human life is murdered in an abortion. But that never seems to have bothered advocates of abortion–better to shout insults than get into a debate on the life in the womb and how that life should be treated..

  • Jennifer

    And you should apologize for your ignornance.

  • Larry

    That would be interesting if you showed similar concern for the born women who consider having abortions or to children who are born. But all it means is your concern for humanity only lasts 9 months of their existence.

    If you gave a crap about the sanctity of life, you would be working to create conditions where abortion would not be a viable consideration. Banning it never worked and only endangered the lives of women (like you give a damn). Things like supporting social services, education and employment opportunities for young mothers. But that also means giving a crap about the poor. Christians like yourself only care about that to the extent it helps their image. In fact where contraception and abortion are easily available, abortion rates go down as do the motivations for having them.

  • John

    or, 2011 in Norway, I can keep going if you’d like…

  • Jim Olson

    Thanks for saving me the time, Jon.

  • Nell Webbish

    1) Clinton was referring to extreme anti-abortion posistions as extreme because they are extreme. Disagreeing with them is an orthogonal point

    2) Straw man argument. The Democratic party does not advocate for totally unregulated abortion.

    3) Second straw man argument. Clintod didn’t compare anti-abortion proponents to terrorist groups like ISIS. She compared their attitudes about abortion to those held by groups like ISIS.

    4) The GOP is waging a war on women. The fact that you don’t regocnize it is immaterial to the fact that it exists.

    And by the way, a fetus is neither a child or a baby

  • Larry

    Shorter Trevin Wax:

    1. We don’t like being called extremists, but we aren’t going to demonstrate why such a label is incorrect. We are just thin skinned, that’s all.

    2. I am going to pretend Hilary is similar to those dreaded CANADIANS (OMG GASP!).*

    3. I am going to repeat the lie that PP sells body parts because its useful.

    4. I am annoyed that the systematic attack on women’s health, contraception and abortion rights is so succinctly described under one heading. Its not fair!

    *The “regulations” of abortion procedures typically proposed are conservative attempts at back door de facto bans. Lying to justify unnecessary obstructions to access to abortion is common. Most are opposed by professional medical organizations.

  • Gregory R. Reed

    A pregnant woman has the same right of control over her body as the parent of a 6 year old who needs a blood transfusion. The latter parent cannot be compelled to donate blood. The former should not be compelled to continue biologically supporting a fetus. The right to an abortion is the right to control one’s own body. Period.

    Further supporting my suspicion that the abortion issue is mostly about taking from women control over their own bodies is the fact that so many “pro-life” people also happen to oppose birth control, advocate for “abstinence only” sex education (or none at all), and decry premarital sex as immoral.

    When the “pro-life” crowd forms a more coherent overall ideology (by supporting birth control and sex ed that would reduce unwanted pregnancies, and financial aid for kids of poor parents), I’ll take them seriously. Until then, I’ll continue assuming that the concern for poor, unborn kiddies is mostly a smoke screen for wresting from women control of…

  • Jude Iscariot

    In light of the Planned Parenthood videos, that have been proven to been a fabrication, edited to creative a false narrative? Yeah, what can backfire there? Nothing, except for the side making such false videos.

  • Tia

    ^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^

  • Cris

    It’s not ‘life’ in the womb…it’s a parasite (definition of, look it up.) The blob in a uterus isn’t more of a human being than the woman carrying it. It’s no more a person than cancer would be. However, since the woman is a full-grown person, physically present in the world, she is entitled to certain human rights…such as over her own body, where you have no business being. Hush, now. Spouting religious rhetoric with the hopes of denying a real person’s human rights is not acceptable.

  • “If you believe in human rights for all, including the unborn, you “don’t want to live in the modern world.” Your position is “extreme””

    WOW! Talk about quote mining. This whole article is nothing more than clickbait. You bad mouth her for telling the truth while you lie about what she said.

  • Mike

    She’s fighting for press coverage, competing with Trump, and she’s fighting to maintain her base in the Democratic primary process, where she’s taking a beating over the email thing and people’s distrust of her is festering. The old wounds, going all the way back to Whitewater, haven’t healed because there has been a lack of repentance.

    The Clintons are still the Clintons. We don’t need a third term or a Clinton Administration 2.0. We’ve moved on, so let’s keep it that way.

  • Sister Geraldine Marie, OP, RN, PHN

    All of you commenters exist because your mothers carried you to term!
    “Women’s rights,” you say? Sounds like women are just doing what the men do–refusing to take responsibility for their actions. No one owns his/her body! Did you make yourself? It is your duty to keep it healthy and free (as possible) from the disobedience of sin.
    Clinton is desperate to become POTUS so she’ll say anything to get elected.

  • Larry

    “Sounds like women are just doing what the men do–refusing to take responsibility for their actions”

    Ahhh, s1utshaming. The perennial favorite argument for the anti-abortion crowd.

    Women who seek abortions are all dirty s1uts, therefore in your infinite moral superiority must tell them how to make personal decisions. After all having sexual relations means you no longer have a right to control what goes on inside your body. A pregnant woman must always defer to your superior judgment as a self-important Christian. /sarcasm

    ” It is your duty to keep it healthy and free (as possible) from the disobedience of sin”

    Religious freedom means nobody has to give a crap what you consider “sin”, nor does it get force of law.

    “No one owns his/her body! ”

    Can we have your liver then? After all you did fill out the organ donor card. 🙂

  • David Cass

    Check Jon’s comments, above. I’d say you got the wrong editor to pick the above post for your digital commentary. I think Ms Clinton is correct on every statement. But I do understand the incendiary nature of this subject. Here’s my input: If you have a Y chromosome and a uterus, this is an argument for others. If you qualify, your argument should not be based on religious claptrap from a fire-breathing clergyman trying to give a memorable sermon. There are two people, and only two people, to decide their answer: the expectant woman, and, perhaps, the father. The father will share evenly the rearing of the child if the decision is to give birth. Everyone else? Mind your own bodies.

  • tatateeta

    Ditto to what USMAMULE said.

  • Bobbie

    I totally agree with Jon.

  • Bobbie

    Spoken like a male that doesn’t have to worry about rape, incest or being pregnant.

  • chris

    It’s not that she “doesn’t like” anyone. The people who oppose abortion are shooting doctors, planting bombs, destroying offices, burning buildings, going into residential neighborhoods and harassing people. They are taking pictures of people going in and out of clinics and writing done license plate numbers… that’s terrorism

  • daily

    Sister Geraldine Marie, OP, RN, PHN August 31, 2015 at 2:16 pm
    “No one owns his/her body! ”
    Please tell me who “owns my body” if I don’t? Proof that would stand up in court would be appreciated.
    Please remember I am not a christian so no quotes from books that are irrelevant.

  • George B

    Baloney! The extremism comes from the religious right who insist abortion is murder. If that is so do you want women who get abortions to be sentenced to death? I mean you Pro-lifers DO believe in the death penalty more often than not so yes or no?

  • George B

    My religion says eating meat is murder…. which it is….. so now NO ONE gets to eat meat.

  • George B

    The only reason you religious extremist AREN’T as bad as the Taliban is because you do not control all the power in this country. If indeed you had the political power the Taliban has I suspect the extremism would come pouring out and dissenters would certainly suffer the wrath of your religious extremism. Religious extremism is the same where ever you find it. Fortunately ,you are held in check by the majority of more rational religious and non-religous people.

  • George B

    Sister, 20% of all conceptions end in spontaneous abortion… I’m thinking God is pro-choice.

  • Deacon John M Bresnahan

    A baby is a cancer. So that is how

    A child is a” cancer-“–a “parasite”??? So that is how some justify exterminating a living human being (proven alive by modern science.) Chilling. It makes clear that hatred is part of some people’s desire to justify killing. Since this is clearly so in the comment here, then clearly laws are needed to protect the unborn child from being murdered.

  • Dominic

    Absolute, uneducated rubbish..

  • Larry

    So why do you hate born people so much John?

    You hate mothers and their children. You obviously have no regard for them. If you did, you would be speaking of ways to support young and poor mothers. So they would not seek abortion as their best option.

    But no. You simply want to engage in cheap s1utshaming and labor under the delusion that abortion bans have ever been effective or sane. You want to feel morally superior to those who want to do something other than fawn over a fetus. So any claim you are for the preservation of life is an outright lie.

    So why should we give a flying crap what you think about a fetus?
    Why should they be entitled to existence, but the born are not?

  • Dominic

    I’m always shocked at how society, especially women, has come to accept abortion as a natural, progressive choice. It defies logic and basic humanity.
    If a woman wants her arm removed, will it be allowed? How about her legs?
    It would be more tolerable if the woman agreed to die WITH her baby, than just have it killed for convenience sake, or to offer it’s parts for another human. Women need to address their natural ability to conceive, and not toss away this gift so maliciously.
    Clinton is a monster.

  • Elizabeth

    At first blush, the comparison of pro-lifers to religious extremists and terrorists seems like political hyperbole.

    However, if pro-lifers succeed in outlawing abortion, women will die from unsafe abortions. Pro-lifers routinely harass and threaten clients and staff of medical clinics. Pro-lifers have bombed and murdered.

    Actually…the comparison is not that far off.

  • Jack

    Hillary is just being Hillary — She continually exercises poor judgment in word and deed wherever she happens to be — from the Arkansas governor’s mansion or White House with her husband, at Foggy Bottom, or on the campaign trail.

    Lots people talk about what an embarrassment her husband has been to her as a result of his affairs. It is equally true that she has been an embarrassment to him. She has always had foot-in-mouth disease, coupled by a Nixonian streak that can’t stop cutting corners or pushing envelopes legally and ethically.

  • Jack

    Jon, apparently you missed the part that notes how we have the most radical pro-abortion law among the western democracies, which typically provide cut-off points of some sort after the first trimester.

    Whenever anybody proposes that Roe be modified so our abortion law will be more like that of European Union nations, people like you flip out and condemn such ideas as “extremist.”

    I say that supporting abortion any time, any place, for any reason is the epitome of an extremist position.

  • Jack

    So according to Larry, anyone who objects being called an “extremist” must be “thin-skinned.” I can tell you from experience that Larry doesn’t apply that to himself. He doesn’t like it one bit when it’s directed at him.

    And according to Larry, any and all regulations on abortion are suspect at best and anathema at worst. Interesting, since Larry’s politics make him a regulation fanatic regarding virtually every other business under the sun.

    Larry the deregulator? Only for abortion.

  • Jack

    Yes, Chris, most people who are pro-life are behaving just like ISIS. That grisly Grandma Fan down the block just loves to behead children.

    Sure….

    In fact, I just saw a horrific video of a……oops…..that was Planned Parenthood…..

  • Jack

    Hillary should apologize to her contributors for daily commission of political malpractice.

    She’s an awful campaigner.

  • Yoteech

    Jack, apparently you missed the part that a fertilized egg, embryo, fetus is still part of MY BODY. What makes you think that you deserve more rights over my body than I have? Will you give up viagra or cialis or the right to a vasectomy because I say so? Of course not. Will you – after you have forced me to give birth – then defend my child’s right to go on living if your “freedom and liberty” are threatened by another nation? You would kill my child after it actually is a conscious human being to save your own hide or wealth or idea of patriotism. If you are really pro-life you must be anti-war and anti-death penalty – not just anti – abortion. This is all about control over women by men. Nothing else. Hypocrits! Thank you, Hillary for speaking the truth. Killing doctors and terrorizing women who go to a Planned Parenthood Health Clinic IS TERRORISM.

  • Jack

    Charles Brown, why do you assume that pro-lifers don’t care about poor people?

    It sounds like what you’re really saying is that pro-lifers tend not to be politically liberal and thus are less likely to support liberal ideas on how to help poor people.

    Assuming you’re correct on that, this begs the question:

    What makes you so sure that liberal solutions for helping the poor are the only solutions, let alone the best solutions?

    Sorry to have to tax your mind on this, but you’re an adult so you can handle it. You’ll survive.

  • Yoteech

    You are so right, Charles Brown. Anti – abortion is all about the desire of so many men to have complete control over women. It is just hypocritical.

  • Cam

    That summarizes your post nicely, so, back at you. You can’t actually rebut what I said.

  • Jack

    Where are people wanting the military to stop abortion? Roe is the law of the land — the most radical pro-abortion law among western democracies, by the way — so the military has no authority to act.

    And defunding Planned Parenthood simply means that it will have to act like most other nonprofit groups and fend for itself — getting donations from like-minded rich people, like Hollywood gazillionaires who can more than make up for the shortfall. It’ll give these blowhards a chance to put their money where their mouths are.

    As for the accusations that pro-lifers “regularly” engage in “terrorist” actions, that’s a pretty dishonest accusation. “Regularly?”

    Are you usually that dishonest, or do you believe that if you’re correct on an issue, you get to lie with impunity?

  • Christy O.

    Exactly Tim, couldn’t have said it better. These regressives are not “pro-life” at all, they are simply anti-choice. They have obviously never read of the numerous accounts from women or families who’ve tried for years and desperately wanted their child, only to find out after a few weeks (or even months) into their pregnancy that the fetus is already no longer viable or will die immediately upon birth, if they even make it that far.
    And then there are the procedures done out of safety for the mother’s life, which are also done as early as possible, often well before the clump of cells could even be considered something like a person. (FYI: 89% of all abortions are done within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, and 1/3 are at 6 weeks or earlier.)
    They don’t care that more often than not, abortions are done out of medical necessity and not a celebrated occasion, even by pro-choice advocates. They just don’t want people to be able to make that choice at all. That’s all there is…

  • Yoteech

    After a birth and the first breath of air, a baby exists and can be murdered. Before that – no matter how we think of it – the fertilized egg, or embryo, or fetus is just that a fertilized egg, an embryo or a fetus. It is part of the mother’s body. It has the chemical capacity to become a human being but it is not a separate human being until after birth. The next time you eat a fried egg, would you say that that you ate a chicken dinner? The logic is the same.

  • Jack

    Actually, her view on abortion is absolutely medieval. In pre-modern times, people knew next to nothing about the science of fetal development and so there were all sorts of silly and ignorant beliefs about when a baby becomes a baby.

    But modern technology brought us such things as ultrasounds and the Internet to show them to the whole world.

    Such technology is to the pro-abortion fanatics what sunlight is to vampires….unwelcome to the extreme.

    It is they who are being unscientific by denying what technology reveals to anyone with functioning eyes and a computer.

  • Jack

    It probably seems okay to you if you are used to hyperbole — comparing people you don’t like to Nazis or terrorists — as a political tool to demonize and silence people who disagree with you.

    But for most normal people, it’s pretty sleazy.

  • Jack

    Extremists may be found on all sides…..and two wrongs don’t make a right.

  • Jack

    Tim, how does opposing abortion on demand constitute “religious nonsense with little or no concern for people who wish to live their lives by modern standards?”

    First of all, one doesn’t have to believe in any god to believe unrestricted abortion is wrong. One does not logically necessitate the other. There are theists who are prochoice and atheists who are prolife.

    Second, how does taking into account the modern science of fetal development show little concern for people living in the modern world? I would think the opposite is the case. Pretending the fetus is just a blob until birth constitutes a denial of modernity — precisely what you’re accusing prolifers of doing.

  • Jack

    I’m not sure how it is “irrational superstition” to accept the findings of modern science, as seen via ultrasound, about fetal development.

    It seems that it’s you, Clifford, who are diving headlong into such superstition — accepting a medieval view that the fetus magically becomes a human sometime near the end of a pregnancy, or, even more magically, not a moment before birth.

  • Jack

    Sara, most people do not support the view that abortion should be legal any time, any place, for any reason, all the way to birth. Nor do most people believe in literally banning all abortions. People are in between these two views, widely dispersed, which means either side can spin the results their own way. You’re an adult; you know how statistics work; you shouldn’t have to be told the obvious.

    And you know better than to pretend that most pro-lifers are shooting doctors or clinics. They don’t have horns. They don’t have a Cyclops eye. They’re not the bogeyman. None are hiding under your bed at night. They’re concerned citizens just as you are. They just dare to disagree with you on a fundamental issue.

  • Jack

    Kathy, we live in a democracy, not a Kathy dictatorship. People have right to express their views, even if those views dare to oppose those of Your Royal Highness. I’ll bet anything that on a host of other issues, you take views that are completely opposite of “minding your own business.”

    What you need is to realize that in a free country, people are going to disagree with each other on fundamental issues. Not everybody is going to agree with Kathy on what Kathy says. Part of being an adult is to realize that people are diverse and have diverse opinions on practically everything. The only way to stop them is for someone to make you dictator so you can put them all in jail.

  • Jack

    If polls mean anything, most people, including most Democratic primary voters, think that Hillary is not exactly a truth-teller.

  • Jack

    If Hillary were required to apologize for every gaffe, error, or poor exercise of judgment, she would be forced to go on an epic apology tour that would far exceed Obama’s.

  • Jack

    John Short, how is it “superstitious” to apply the modern science of fetal development to the abortion debate?

    The real superstition comes from the medieval view that the fetus is a lifeless blob that magically becomes human not long before birth.

    The rest of your post is incoherent gibberish….why being prolife on abortion would make one less sensitive to genocide is anyone’s guess.

  • Jack

    Wonderbug, if you feel so strongly about it, you should be yelling at virtually every other democracy in the world, most of which have laws that restrict abortion to the first trimester….unlike our law, which is by far the most radical among the democracies.

    Try your rhetoric on for size across Europe….and most people will mutter under their breaths, “silly and daft American with nothing else to do with his/her life.”

  • Jack

    His “paymasters.” How quaint and silly.

    Maybe, just maybe, Larry, he believes what he says just as strongly as you do about what you believe.

  • Jack

    Sorry, Nell, but you flunk biology. Your view is hopelessly medieval, not modern. A fetus doesn’t magically become a child or baby at birth.

    Or perhaps you believe that fetuses have no linear connection to babies — Maybe you believe that storks deliver babies and fetuses just fade into nothingness once the stork makes his delivery. Fetuses are some cosmic reminder, perhaps that one day, the stork will arrive with his little bundle of joy.

    Yeah….that’s it.

    There….I’ve solved your little problem. Now you can go to sleep after mommy tucks you in bed.

  • Jack

    Yup, the Planned Parenthood videos were all fake. They kidnapped the people talking about chopping up body parts — and they threatened to kill their entire families if they didn’t read a script on a hidden teleprompter about body parts and all the rest.

    It was all a great, big, giant conspiracy…..just like 9/11 and the Holocaust and the JFK assassination and the moon landing.

    You know something else? Those big bad pro-life filmers were not even human….but shape-shifting reptiles from another planet pretending to be.

  • Jack

    Rick, it’s useless. You can’t reason with them….These people are nuts.

  • Jack

    Uh, David, I hate to inform you of this, but the modern science of fetal development is the issue here, not religion.

    Ironically, it is your view — that a fetus magically becomes a baby sometime at or right before birth — that sounds medieval and religious, rather than scientific. The scientific view is that development from fertilized egg to recognizable baby is not mysterious but quite logical and orderly….It occurs long before birth and vital organs and functions are in place long before that.

    It is a view that is based on observable fact.

    There’s something that was invented a while back — it’s called ultrasound. Go on the Internet and read about it. That should bring you at least into the 20th century, rather than in the 12th or 13th.

  • dawn

    I think government forced birth IS terrorism.

  • Jack

    Nice try, Yoteech, but if you bothered to read the article with care, you’d recall the well-established fact, cited therein, that there is no gender gap on abortion. Women are no more pro-choice, or less pro-life, than men are.

    And most pro-choice women want pro-choice men to weigh in on the issue just as much as most pro-life women want pro-life men to weigh in.

    So as a factual matter, men on both sides are in on the issue, as much as women on both sides are.

    Nice try, though.

  • Deacon John M Bresnahan

    I guess some want to go back to the pagan ancient Greek method of child selection–pretty much what Yoteech advocates here. When a baby is born and the mother (or father in ancient Greece) don’t want the child–then smashing its head against a rock is morally acceptable. I notice pro-abortion people like to ignore the fact that their fellow baby haters virtually all want to have the right to kill the child at even the latest stage in development–one senator in defending the racist PP even said the child is not worthy of having any rights until it leaves the hospital. And it is well-developed body parts that PP is harvesting from children they killed for profit (to get new sports cars). In the name of a warped sense of rights we have become a nation of savages to please the pro-abortion crowd.

  • Jack

    I’m not sure how it is “irrational superstition” to accept the findings of modern science, as seen via ultrasound, about fetal development.

    It seems that it’s you, Clifford, who are diving headlong into such superstition — accepting a medieval view that the fetus magically becomes a human sometime near the end of a pregnancy, or, even more magically, not a moment before birth.

  • Jack

    In LarryWorld, any black person who doesn’t genuflect before the correct political orthodoxy — his own — is a crazy you-know-what. The person could really be crazy or they could be the most sane person in the world. To Larry, it doesn’t matter.

  • Deacon John M Bresnahan

    Ultrasound has really turned the debate around. That is probably why those in favor of abortion don’t want to really debate–just throw invectives around. It is clear it is the pro-abortion crowd that is now living in the Dark Ages in its refusal to recognize the testimony of modern ultrasound. Apparently some of them want dead babies no matter what the evidence of modern science is.about the humanity of babies.

  • kati

    Sorry. I totally disagree with this article. Anyone who uses their religious beliefs to restrict and control the actions of others is a terrorist to me. I volunteer for a PP. Every week I watch these people try to scare, intimidate, shame, and prohibit women from obtaining health services. To me they are no different than other fundamentalist terrorist groups in countries around the world. Totally sick of these people. Just because you share their religion doesn’t mean that they are any better than other fanatics from religions who don’t follow. So sick of being persecuted by these extremists.

  • Jon

    Actually, what she said was “We expect extreme views on women from terrorists, we don’t expect/accept them from people running for POTUS.” So, she didn’t exactly call pro-birthers terrorists. However, I’d like to point out that not a single pro-choice advocate has executed a man in his church in front of the entire congregation (http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/05/31/kansas.doctor.killed/), nor bombed a pro-birth supporter’s work (http://www.adl.org/combating-hate/domestic-extremism-terrorism/c/anti-abortion-violence-americas-forgotten-terrorism-1.html), nor do they even threaten to send deadly anthrax (http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm). So I’d like ask you, who aren’t terrorists? I don’t like Hillary Clinton, nor do I believe everything she says. She’s a politician, just like every other politician she will say things to draw in supporters, but in this case I think even if she had called them terrorists she wouldn’t be so wrong.

  • Cam

    Jack, if you had bothered to read what Yoteech wrote, you’d realize that wasn’t her claim.

  • Cam

    There are obvious exaggerations on both sides, but the violent attacks do mainly come from the anti-abortion side.

  • Cam

    No, it is now a more clear matter of degree of development. And the degree is clearer.

  • Cam

    Gotta agree with you there. On both counts.

  • Cam

    More like now, we know the degree of development better, and we can make decisions based on that. The arguments certainly have shifted thanks to science, and the absolute anti-abortion side has lost as a result.

  • Cam

    Overgeneralized. That clearly isn’t what Larry is saying.

    You hating on Larry all the time isn’t making you look great…

  • Cam

    Jack, we live in a democracy, not a Jack dictatorship. People have right to express their views, even if those views dare to oppose those of Your Royal Highness…

  • Cam

    Both tours taken together would not even come close to the apology tour that GWB should give.

  • Cam

    Dismissing the latter part of John’s post as gibberish is unfair and generally false. Those are legit points he made about the god being discussed. What say you in response, sans your dismissal?

  • Cam

    Jack, you flunk Logic. You did a straw man yourself on Nell with that set, as well as missing most of her points and then finally insulting her.

  • Cam

    The fakery has been exposed. Ridiculing seems to be your only response. Not much substance to your case there.

  • Cam

    No, it hasn’t. The degree of development is simply clearer now, and we can have a more informed debate.

  • Larry

    Typical personal attack in lieu of an argument worth taking seriously.. What else is new?

    Why make sense when you can just sling ad hominem?

  • I love the narcissism which makes you think you have any right to intercede into the personal decisions of others and their bodies. Anti-abortion rhetoric is all about ignoring or attacking pregnant women.

    Typical proposed “regulations” are generally blatant attempts at creating undue burdens on the ability to obtain an abortion. A way to create de facto bans and make it difficult for poor women to obtain them. They have nothing to do with medical necessity, proper licensing or safety.

    Like Trevin Wax, you fail to give any reasons as to what purpose those regulations in the EU serve. More likely than not, same as here. Create undue burdens on the procedures.

    Its telling that in virtually every case the medical profession is the first to object to these regulations. Not politicians, but the people who have to follow these intercessions between doctor and patient relationships.

  • You are the one who is asking for women to submit to your will as if they were your personal property. You are the one who thinks they have a right to restrain women from making decisions about their bodies. Very medieval of you.

    Btw any analogies between abortion and infanticide are pure dishonest crap. Any responsible adult can keep a born child alive (but you don’t care if they do one way or another). Only the mother keeps a fetus alive. Therefore anybody can care for the born, but only the mother’s will matters for the unborn.

    Of course lying is common to your POV as well. PP as racist or selling body parts are fictions, debunked nonsense. But you guys repeat it ad nauseum regardless.

    John, if your views were worth a damn, why do you have to lie so often and so badly?

  • Because you ignore born people in the discussion. The only time the pregnant woman is mentioned is to denigrate or attack her. Because conservatives have let it be known how little they regard the poor (except as ultra-religious voting blocs). Because you are narcissistic enough to claim that you should have authority over the personal decisions and autonomy of others.. That is not concern. That is hostility.

    “What makes you so sure that liberal solutions for helping the poor are the only solutions, let alone the best solutions?”

    Because conservatives don’t offer solutions at all. They only seek to make the problems worse. For example where PP has been defunded and abortion stumbling blocks are in place, welfare rolls increase as do unplanned pregnancies. [Such as in Texas]. Somehow the conservative solution is to create more poor people.

  • Trevin Wax works directly for the SBC as one of their employees. The man is literally one of their shills and makes no disguise of it.

    Maybe you should inform yourself first before making a ridiculous personal attack. 🙂

  • Yeah its got the entire medical profession against the anti-abortion crowd. Good work in making your POV look completely dishonest.

    Doctors see it as politicians intruding on the doctor/patient relationship and the medical profession’s duty to receive informed consent.

    Its proven that any time a conservative politician talks about medical licensing, necessity or various procedures relating to abortion, they are lying sacks of crap. They only seek to create phony de facto bans.

  • Pingback: Trevin Wax Calls on Hillary Clinton to Apologize for Her Inflammatory Abortion Comments | BCNN1 WP()

  • Rob

    It’s simple if you have checked one or more boxes for at least several viewpoints that are extreme (extreme inflexibility, extremely deviant from human rights, extremely religious , extreme righteousness or take the bible over constitution, or want the death penalty for all what is born and are willing to kill over the unborn) you are an extremist

  • George Nixon Shuler

    Actually what you saw was a hoax created by an extremist group backed by right-wing terrorists Flip Benham and Cheryl Sullenberger.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    There’s certainly no reason to apologize for taking the most moral position on a issue whose opposition is only composed of hatred and ignorance.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    If you don’t believe in abortion, don’t get one. Case closed.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    Actually the divisions about the issue are virtually unchanged since Roe.

  • Bonnie

    Actually, the democracy with the most liberal abortion laws is Israel. Paid for by the tax payers as it’s covered under there universal health care.

  • Beth

    Nah Jack, they prefer to force them to be given birth to so that they can turn around and starve them in our country instead. They enjoy the birth, not the after care.

  • Beth

    Actually Jack, you’d be very wrong there. Most of the European states have legal abortion on demand, with exceptions in Malta, Rome and most notably Ireland where there is heavy Catholic influence. Oh and Andorra as well, and maybe another like Liechtenstein.

    In Europe, during the 1st trimester, abortion can be gotten immediately. After that they have tighter laws, but those laws really aren’t that tight in reality when you look at WHY women have abortions after the 1st trimester and compare them to here. Anything that could harm the mother, the fetus, cause undo financial strain due to development problems, etc. are ALL legal grounds for abortion in Europe.

  • Noni

    “Where are the people wanting the military to stop abortion?”

    Uh, running for president. Huckabee wants to use the National Guard to go after women seeking abortion.

  • Bernardo

    Hillary C. is the leader of the “Stu-pid Majority” and that is why she says what she says about abortion.. The “Stu-pid Majority”? The largest voting bloc in the USA today made up of the 86 million “mothers and fathers”/voters of the 43 million womb babies who have lost their lives via abortion since R vs. W. And why?

    Stu-pidity in using co-ntraceptives!!!

    See below for added details:

    Some words are hyphenated to defeat an obvious word filter.

  • Bernardo

    from Guttmacher:

    “• Fifty-four percent of women who have abortions had used a co-ntraceptive method (usually the con-dom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant. Among those women, 76% of pill users and 49% of co-ndom users report having used their method inconsistently, …………

    And the result of this inconsistency/stu-pidity?

    One million abortions/yr. and 19 million STD cases/yr.

  • bill

    When was the last time a Pro-choice activist shot someone? When was the last time a Pro-choice activist detonated a bomb at a Pro-life building? When was the last time a Pro-choice activist detonated a bomb at public gathering in protest? Never. Never. Never.

  • I like how the Deacon refers to anyone who has an abortion is a “baby hater”. I know women who have children and also have had abortions. So how did these children survive if these women are “baby haters” woman have abortions for many reasons just as they carry children to term for many reasons. To call all women who have abortions as “baby haters” is false. disingenuous, and childish. And by the way every Deacon I have ever met is some sanctimonious individual who wants to be a priest but doesn’t have the dedication to make the sacrifice required. So go back to your church and stand up on the altar looking pious that is where you do your best work.

  • Larry

    There was a little give in 1995 with Casey v. Planned Parenthood. Regulations to abortion were deemed OK if they “did not create an undue burden on access”.

    Since then the anti-abortion crowd has been trying to flood states with bad faith dishonest concerns for licensing, clinic safety, and informed consent (despite the entire medical profession’s objections).

  • Mike

    Christians are a funny lot. They pick one god from a list of over ten thousand man made gods. They follow a doctrine that is filled with contradictions. Their doctrine promotes misogyny, rape, torture, murder, slavery and child abuse. It is filled with fantastical tall tales like parting entire seas, talking reptiles and even a man living in a whales stomach for three days. Lets not even touch the math and logic of putting two of all of the worlds species on a wooden boat for over a month. These are the rational, sane individuals we should be listening to for lessons on morality? Most Christians do not favor policies or social services that would help these unwanted children be cared for. Christians are some of the most self righteous, arrogant and mean spirited people I have ever met. There will come a day when your religion is relegated to folklore like the Greek gods. Keep your religion out of other peoples lives.

  • Dominic

    Why answer a ridiculous charge? You read history with the mind ( or facsimilie) of an atheist.

  • Dominic, Cam really hammered you successfully there. You actually haven’t refuted what he said at all. You just attacked vacantly. Doesn’t look good on ya!

  • Bernardo

    More about the “Stu-pid” Majority (Hillary’s voting base)

    WHICH Birth control METHODS DO WOMEN (men?) USE?

    • 64% of reproductive-age women who practice contraception use reversible methods, such as oral contraceptives or condoms. The remaining women rely on female or male sterilization.[2]

    FIRST-YEAR CONTRACEPTIVE FAILURE RATES – Guttmacher Institute)
    Percentage of women experiencing an unintended pregnancy (a few examples)
    (Calculations based on the Institutes statistics)

    Method……………..Typical
    Pill (combined)……… 8.7 (resulting in ~one millon unplanned pregnancies)
    Tubal sterilization ……0.7
    Male condom ……….17.4 (resulting in ~one million unplanned pregnancies)
    Vasectomy…………… 0.2
    Implant…………………1.0
    IUD (Copper-T)……….1.0
    (Masturbation mono or dual)………. 0
    (Abstinence) 0

    And the abortion rate in the USA? ~one million/year

  • Jack

    Beth, I don’t see your logic — how taking a high view of life before birth means taking a low view of life after birth.

    Maybe you can explain how that works……

  • Jack

    Sorry, Dawn, but the definition of terrorism isn’t “anything and everything that Dawn doesn’t like.” That’s more than a little narcissistic.

  • Jack

    Yoteech, go to Europe and preach to all the other democracies who have stricter abortion laws than we do. If you love abortion so much, it doesn’t get any better than American law.

  • Jack

    Larry, go preach to our democratic allies in Europe and tell them to change their abortion law to make it as radical as America’s.

    It would be very interesting to see their reaction to being called conservative or reactionary by an American.

  • Jack

    If you compare how easy it is to get a second-trimester abortion there as opposed to here, there is a discernible difference. Even with their exceptions, they are clearly more strict.

  • Jack

    There is nothing moral about comparing everything you don’t happen to like to terrorism. At best, it is hyperbole on parade.

  • Donna

    So taking a human life regardless of what stage of development is okay? A fetus grows into a dog or cat? It is HUMAN! Killing a baby near “term” is okay? Selling the parts of a baby is ethical? The entire debate is totally selfish. Free Sex is real issue. Women have become the new slaves. Television ads and shows are full of sexually explicit material that stimulates every man. Young women role models are barely clad – just look at the latest music awards show! Why? Sex! Young women do not need to sell themselves short with such trash! Free Sex = abortions. Young girls and women have brought into the lie and have become the new slaves! I fought for the “rights” of women in the 1960’s – I did not march and scream for women to become “slaves” and “kill their unborn children” by the millions!

  • Jack

    Wrong again, Larry. Actually it is narcissistic on the extreme to believe that on every issue, the solutions you favor are the only ones being offered. Either that, or you live in a cocoon, cave, or ghetto, walled off from the rest of humanity.

    Sorry to rock your world, Larry, but people with the policy coherence of the Unibomber aren’t the only ones offering answers to problems. On every issue you can name, there are solutions other than yours that are on the table.

    If someone offers a solution to a problem and Larry hasn’t heard of it, does the solution really exist?

    For Larry the Narcissist, that’s a deep philosophical question with no ready answer. But for normal people, the question answers itself.

  • Jack

    Citation please, Noni.

  • Jack

    That’s the point, Cam. Science has replaced all the zany philosophical and theological arguments which basically said that a baby just magically becomes one in the third trimester or right before birth.

    Ironically, the extreme pro-abortion activists are reverting back to pre-modern theology and spurning the scientific facts about fetal development.

  • Jack

    Not so, Cam. The big loser is the side that would have us believe it’s a blob until birth or right before birth. That view is finished. The big winner is the view that it’s more like a baby than a blob nearly right from the get-go, given how the rudiments of major systems are already in place well before the second trimester.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    Not in this case it isn’t. Dr. George Tiller was assasinated by a Terrorist. Dr. Bernard Slepian and others were as well. Flip Benham and Cheryl Sullenberger are well-known as terrorists. Sullenberger served a stint in prison for her terrorism.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    Not at all. Nazi Germany forbade abortion by German women. Romania’s Ceaucesceau regime forbade it. Racist movements attacked it or forbade it in varying degrees.

    the criminalization of abortion is based on nothing more than woman hatred and the total disrespect of the moral agency of the individual woman, just those whose program contains elements like like genocide.

  • Jack

    Cam, I’m not the one trying to exclude people from having an opinion on abortion if it isn’t the “correct” one. I’m not the one speaking to entire genders and telling them they have no right to their opinion if they’re of the “wrong” gender.

    A relatively small group of fanatics are doing so and it’s worth pointing that out.

  • Jack

    Yeah, GWB should apologize to the American people and the majority of Iraqis, for turning a near-certain victory in Iraq into a second Vietnam, by twiddling his thumbs for four years after getting rid of Saddam, and turning our armed forces into glorified cops walking the beat rather than unleashing them so they could crush the Sunni resistance in the Triangle from day one. I’m sure most GIs did not sign up to be police officers responding to rather than preventing IED attacks and other niceties.

    It’s really hard to exceed W’s sorry record in Iraq, but Obama and Hillary have somehow managed that feat….Obama by pulling out of Iraq completely, creating a vacuum filled by ISIS, and Hillary by refusing to provide more security to embassies even on 9/11 anniversaries.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    If that were so he would be the epitome of the phrase “a useful idiot.” Nobody quite that stupid is capable of rising to that sort of prominence.

  • Jack

    Larry, your stock in trade is personal attack, as evidenced by your post on Wax, so I’m not sure what your problem is, other than having a glass jaw.

    And regarding Wax’s place of employment, you seem to be confusing cause with effect. Wax holds to a certain ideology and so he chooses to work for a like-minded employer. Thus his opinions are the cause and his working for SBC is the effect.

    By use of the word, “paymaster,” you’re implying it’s the other way around. You’d have a point if his opinions changed after his employment began….but there is no such indication to my knowledge.

  • Jack

    Actually not, Cam.

    She said “a fetus is neither a child nor a baby,” a readily refutable claim given what we know about fetal development.

  • Jack

    What fakery? Do you believe the words on one of the videos — about slicing and dicing live second-trimester fetuses, and about preserving livers — were dubbed in and never uttered?

    The one and only plausible question about the videos is whether PP was selling the body parts mentioned for profit. But for normal human beings, that was never the issue. The issue was and is the callousness of the whole operation and those cheerfully discussing it in between wolfing down a good meal.

  • Jack

    Cam, we indeed can have “a more informed debate.”

    Just for fun, you and Larry should have a….er…. discussion.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    Thank you for confirming by your post that the sturm und drang over this issue is not really about “life” so much as about “sex.”

  • Jack

    Good try at diversion, Larry.

    I hope at least that you’re getting paid by some nutty rich lad….at least you’d be compensated somewhat for making yourself look so silly.

  • Larry

    Forensic experts agree the Planned Parenthood videos were heavily edited to create an intentionally misleading impression as to what was going on.
    http://www.examiner.com/article/forensic-experts-agree-planned-parenthood-videos-were-heavily-edited

    But lying is part and parcel with the anti-abortion view, so this will mean nothing to you. You will just repeat the same nonsense as if nothing happened.

    Btw a fetus is not a baby. A baby is a born person. A fetus is still gestating. To compare a clump of cells which cannot exist outside its mother with a fully independent autonomous born person is also dishonest.

    Plus nobody has to abide by your notions of sexual conduct. But thanks for the side order of s1utshaming. This way we all know you are not someone who needs to be taken seriously.

  • Jack

    Of course, Daily is assuming that it’s only about her body and life and no one else’s.

    Tell that to the tens of millions of women who disagree with her completely on abortion and acknowledge the reality of a second life involved.

  • Jack

    Sorry…..I meant to say, “Daily is assuming that it’s only about her body and life and not about anyone else’s.” That’s a more clear statement of the problem.

  • Larry

    “Forensic experts agree, Planned Parenthood videos were ‘heavily edited'”

    http://www.examiner.com/article/forensic-experts-agree-planned-parenthood-videos-were-heavily-edited
    “A thorough review of these videos in consultation with qualified experts found that they do not present a complete or accurate record of the events they purport to depict.””

    But its not like the anti-abortion crowd has ever been beholden to facts, evidence, or honest good faith arguments.

  • Jack

    Bernardo, your calculus is flawed because you’re assuming zero repeat abortions.

  • Larry

    Ad hominem troll says what?

    I can’t help it if you consider giving correct factual information to be personal attacks.

  • Jack

    Mike, what does any of this have to do with the abortion issue?

    I know atheists who oppose abortion and theists who endorse it. Granted, they’re not the norm, but there are enough of them to call into question your premise that it’s all about religion.

    It isn’t. It’s about what we’re going to do with the modern science of fetal development. Are we going to pretend it isn’t there and base our opinions on magical, wishful thinking — that it’s just a blob until birth? Or are we going to be adult about it and allow our opinions on abortion to be informed by the knowledge we now have?

  • Jack

    Larry, how about explaining how the videos were “heavily edited.”

    Are you alleging that the words were dubbed in?

    Are you denying they were discussing the slicing and dicing of live, second-trimester fetuses?

    The main open question about the video, perhaps the sole open question, is whether they were running a for-profit business in fetal body parts.

    That’s a reasonable question.

    But for most people, that’s not the issue. The issue is how do you justify the total callousness and brutality of the whole operation of killing fetuses that are developed enough to have livers and other organs in the first place.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    What’s your point?

  • Jack

    That’s true, Bonnie. And I believe that Canada’s is similar.

    But the difference between Israel’s and our own is not with respect to legality, but with respect to government subsidization. But that difference has nothing to do with attitude on abortion per se, but attitudes toward government involvement in anything. We’re a more libertarian society, whereas Israel is closer to being a social democracy with more government involvement generally.

    While laws on abortion in Europe, places ranging from Sweden to Germany, are more restrictive than our own, I’ll bet that for abortions that are sanctioned there, there is far more government subsidization.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    Actually except for a brief initial spike, Roe v. Wade had nothing to do with rates of abortion. Abortion occurs at the same rate whether abortion is legal or illegal.

  • Jack

    Poor analogy, George B.

    You’re erroneously assuming that opposition to abortion on demand has no rational basis outside of religion.

    The problem is it does.

    So long as you admit that it’s wrong to kill a baby right after it’s born, you become logically and morally incoherent by saying it’s not wrong to kill a baby right before it’s born.

    To make that distinction, you have to toss science into a dumpster and assume that a baby magically becomes a baby at birth and not a second before that.

    But that is magical thinking on the extreme.

    You might as well be saying that storks deliver babies or the moon is made of green cheese.

  • Jack

    Kati, to say that there’s no scientific or practical distinction between a baby seconds after birth and that same baby seconds before birth is hardly a religious statement. It is simply an observable fact.

    What’s the real “religious” or quasi-religious statement is to say that a baby isn’t a baby until birth, but magically becomes one at that moment. That is based on medieval, magical thinking divorced from science.

  • Jack

    Please cite sources, George.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    What traction the abortion prohibitionists have gained briefly and then lost is by deception. At the time of the Casey case, the deal was “partial-birth” abortion, not a medical term, but one invented by an aide to Newt Gingrich, in which the great unwashed were led to believe most abortions were of this sort. Now, it’s those ridiculous sting videos by the right-wing activists pretending to be tissue brokers which have fooled only the most gullible.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    Gotta laugh at how the extremists think they can redefine “baby” but say we can’t redefine “marriage,” LOL!!!

  • Cam

    Wow, you’ve really got it backwards lad. Now where were those chemical weapons again? Oh, there weren’t any? Now THAT needs an apology, given our lives lost there.

  • Cam

    Actually, you have been. Attacking with insults like you have done is a big part of that. See your replies above to Larry for example. Live and learn!

  • Cam

    Not so, Jack. Medicine is not on your side here. The big winner is the reasoned view that there is a stage at which the brain and certain other parts have not developed to some level of funcitonality, and now we can have a better handle on what that stage is.

    You’re getting closer, Jack. Keep learning, lad!

  • George Nixon Shuler

    It was in all the news…wait a minute, probably not on Faux, but Faux does not broadcast news, only propaganda.

    Demanding sources is just another way of bullying. Use your own search engine.

  • Larry

    How about reading the article I linked to and stop pretending these videos were anything legitimate. There was no evidence that ever showed they were selling fetal parts for profit. But a useful fiction is too hard to pass up.

    You feel the need to repeat what was shown to be phony THE DAY IT SURFACED. So there is no need to consider your request in good faith. You feel like repeating lies, so be it.

  • Larry
  • Larry

    “So long as you admit that it’s wrong to kill a baby right after it’s born, you become logically and morally incoherent by saying it’s not wrong to kill a baby right before it’s born. ”

    No you don’t.

    Not unless you stand for the idea that you can place a fetus in protective custody away from its mother the same way one can for a born baby. Biology says no.

    Its telling how you have to pretend a mother doesn’t exist or is not involved at all with the logic and decision process. But its not like you have a view based on honest, rational appraisal of facts. Its just hysterical hypocritical bullcrap to attack a woman’s ability to control her personal choices.

  • Bernardo

    Mr. Shuler,

    What is the point? Might want to scroll up the page to see why Hillary will win the election via the largest voting bloc in the country, the Stu-pid Majority.

  • Bernardo

    Obama rode to the Blood-Red House on the backs of 35+million aborted womb-babies!!! Hillary will do the same but this time on the backs of ~43 million aborted womb babies and their voting “mothers and fathers”.

  • Jack

    George, all you’ve proved is that of the tens of millions of pro-lifers, some have committed acts of terrorism. But you can count them on one or two hands. That is a miniscule percentage of all pro-lifers.

    Based on your logic, environmentalists must be terrorists because of a few stray ones who belong to ELF — Earth Liberation Front, which has committed acts of terrorism.

    It’s really an absurd argument once you think it through.

  • Jack

    No it’s not….I rarely demand sources. I’ve done so twice today, but don’t remember the last time I did.

    I only consider it when the charge seems so totally out-there, it cries out for it.

  • Jack

    Cam, from a historical vantage point, it’s actually the other way around:

    Until modern times and the concurrent rise of modern science and technology, the nature and properties of a fetus in the earliest stages were mostly unknown. We had no idea of how quickly development was occurring, ie how it was progressing as early as the first trimester.

    Now we know.

    It’s clear to whose advantage that is on the debate over abortion.

  • Jack

    Cam, Larry’s a big boy who can defend himself……..

    I am of course assuming the obvious…

  • Jack

    No, Cam, based on the UN resolutions, the burden was not on us or the world to prove Saddam had WMDs. It was on him to prove he did not.

    Unfortunately, the Bush administration switched the burden of proof from him to it. That’s how certain it was that he had them.

    Based on Saddam’s failure to comply with any of the UN resolutions, there was absolutely nothing wrong with ridding the Middle East of a sick dictator who made war on several of his neighbors, tortured his own people, whose avowed goal was to get nukes and to seize Middle East oil supplies by first taking Kuwait and then going on to Saudi Arabia, who was stopped twice from getting nukes by Israel in the early 1980s and by us in the Gulf War, who tried to assassinate the first President Bush after the Gulf War when he drove him out of Kuwait, and who paid the families of homicide bombers against Israel.

  • Jack

    Cam, his premise was incorrect — it’s hardly superstitious to ground opposition to unrestricted abortion on the scientific realities of fetal development. But it’s supremely superstitious to ground support for unrestricted abortion on the medieval notion that babies emerge magically from mere blobs.

    References to sharia law in this context are free association gone wild. They have nothing to do with the subject matter. He might as well have mentioned the Cliff Walk in Newport. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

    The rest of his post traffics in crude stereotypes and myths — such as the myth that if you’re against unrestricted abortion, you must support the opposite extreme of an absolute ban, and the view that if you’re pro-life before birth, you must be anti-life after birth.

  • Jack

    That’s silly, George. Fascist regimes only oppose abortion for their own race, which they worship. They welcome abortion for other races. Their Social Darwinism supports survival of the fittest, and being racial supremacists, they believe their own race should survive and grow, while other races should wither and die.

    To call that pro-life is nonsensical. More to the point, to say that a pro-life position on abortion is what animates them is way off the mark. It’s the other way around. What animates them is a desire for supremacy for their race and for inferiority or death — slow or fast — for other races. Abortion is for them a tool to cull other herds, but forbidden for their own herd because it limits its growth.

  • Jack

    Nice dodge again, Larry, this time from your “paymaster” silliness.

    As for personal attacks, you’re the one who’s constantly whining about them, accusing all who disagree with you with launching them, and then creating new names for yourself to repeat the same whine.

    I’ve merely pointed out that you’re hardly innocent yourself of the same attacks you accuse others of launching.

  • Jack

    George, tell that to any doctor who asks his pregnant patient, “how’s your baby doing?” He or she doesn’t ask “how’s your fetus doing?”

    Or tell that to the writers of anti-smoking ads who talk about how smoking when one is pregnant can harm the “baby you’re carrying.”

    George, we don’t have to redefine “baby.” It’s already defined as pre-born once the choice is made to carry it to term.

  • Jack

    Larry, you’re dodging the obvious questions:

    Were the people in the video Planned Parenthood officials or employees?

    Were they speaking of their own free will?

    Were the words and voices recorded their own?

    If yes to all of this, then good luck in trying to explain it all away.

  • Jack

    Larry, been there, done that…..Again, based on your logic, any dependency relationship gives the one providing for the other a right to terminate. It doesn’t magically stop at birth.

    Try using that as a defense for child abandonment.

  • Jack

    George, is that really what the poster is saying? Maybe she should weigh in but it seems she brings up sex as a motive for others supporting abortion, not as a reason for her opposing it. She starts out by saying she opposes it because it’s the taking of human life, and she capitalizes the word “human.”

  • Jack

    Larry, you’re the one telling the lies. You keep repeating your mantra that the videos are fraudulent, but not a peep out of you on exactly how they are fraudulent.

    Your only substantive objection is that they cause the viewer to infer that PP is selling fetal body parts for profit.

    But you’re so brainwashed on abortion, you can’t see how the average person isn’t even thinking about whether they’re being sold for profit. The average person is too horrified by the fact that fellow human beings are casually and even cheerfully discussing how to extract body parts from a fetus that is developed enough to have body parts to extract in the first place.

    There is no conceivable context in the world that can possibly explain away the dialogue we hear….unless you resort to tin-foil-hatted conspiracies about dubbed voices or people kidnapped, which not even you would attempt to do.

  • Jack

    Bernardo, most people, pro-choice or pro-life or anything in between, do not cast their vote primarily on the abortion issue. Rightly or wrongly, it’s way down the list of priorities for most of the electorate. There are plenty of pro-life leaners who vote for pro-choice candidates, and plenty of pro-choice leaners who vote for pro-life candidates. That’s because they base their choice on other issues.

  • Jack

    Good source, Larry, but it doesn’t help “George” any:

    Go back to your linked article, turn to the chart in point #2, go to 1972 and 1973, and compare abortions then to what they are now.

    While thankfully, they’ve declined in recent times from the highs of prior times, they’re still higher than before Roe was decided — and at no point since the Roe ruling were they ever lower.

  • Leabrand

    http://thinkprogress.org/health/2015/07/31/3686938/huckabee-suggests-using-federal-troops-to-stop-abortion/
    Google turned up too many citations to count. I picked one randomly.
    Pro-choicers are just that – pro CHOICE, no one is demanding that any woman be forced to abort. Result – every woman is permitted a CHOICE.

    Pro-Birthers think it should be up to them to deny a person the right to make decisions about her own body. Result – NO CHOICE

    The only extremists here are the ‘pro-birthers’ – only their viewpoint should be allowed.

  • Leabrand

    Actually people used to think that an entire tiny human was present in every sperm cell. It only “grew” inside the mother. One of the many reasons that men weren’t supposed to masturbate.

  • Bernardo

    Jack,

    But when the candidates, Democratic and Republican, agree on most issues, the Stu-pid Majority will vote for the pro-choice/abortion candidate.

    One might also look at the registration numbers to see that if registered Democrats and Republicans vote for their candidate then it is the Independents who will decided the election:

    There are roughly 55 million registered Republicans. There are roughly 72 million Democrats. And there are roughly 42 million registered independents (and 83 million members of the Stu-pid Majority spread across these parties.) The pro-life Republicans are already behind by 17 million votes.

    Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_registered_republican_voters_are_there_in_America#ixzz1n7ShWVn4

  • Charles

    Well Jon, if we had proof that an unborn child was a human being capable of feeling pain, having dreams, or learning to adapt to his/her surroundings, then the abortion of that child would be murder. And if people are so boldly advocating for this in a fanatical fashion, then that would be extremely disturbing.

    Can you without a doubt say that an unborn child is not a human life? Do you know it for a fact? Because you either don’t know that it’s a human life and abort it (which is murder), or you know that it’s a human life and abort it ( which is blatantly murder).

    So if you identify with the former, you are recklessly and blindly supporting something you know nothing about. If you support the latter, you are at least admitting that it is a human life and at the same time supporting that another separate human life (the mother’s) is so much more important that the unborn life can reasonable be aborted.

    Finally, can you honestly say it’s unreasonable for someone to…

  • Charles

    Since everyone is throwing at stereotypes about conservatives and Christians, let me throw one out there about liberals: you probably support evolution right?
    And I bring this up because of Dominic’s comment. If you believe that we evolved some how from an animal like species and we are animals without souls or purpose besides blending into our surroundings and navigating our lives, then no mother, father, man, woman, child, or baby is any more important than the other. A mother who is 30 years old doesn’t have a soul, doesn’t have a real purpose and is therefore on an even keel with her baby, who is also a soulless mass lacking any purpose beyond living and dying.
    And using the same train of thought, if you believe that the world is evolving and people are evolving, then what are your thoughts on how unborn humans will evolve to their environmental challenge of abortion in the womb?
    If you don’t identify with this at all then you’re admitting human life has some type of…

  • Chris

    Jon it really is a shame that some people who claim to stand for pro-life choose to take a life to prove there point thus contradicting it. However this is nowhere near the norm of the pro-life position just as ISIS is no where the norm of Islam. But put yourself in a pro-lifer’s shoes. He views abortion essentially as manslaughter (or womanslaughter) at best and downright murder and genocide supported by the government at worst. You stated that there are no pro-choicers who have done these things but if their definition of life is wrong they have done far worst. They have supported the murder (or manslaughter) of millions and millions of people who never got to participate in any of their constitutional rights. Jon your argument has one great assumption and the assumption is that you are right. If our definition of life (upheld by our laws) is wrong then your argument turns against itself and devours itself…and you become the person who has participated in genocide.

  • Jack

    Kay, you’re correct about most self-identified pro-choice people, but as for pro-choice organizations, you are mistaken. They support abortion any time, any place, for any reason, all the way to birth.

  • Allen

    I apologize if I have read through the comments too quickly or didn’t keep reading. I kept expecting someone to say. First let it be said that I agree with Hillary Clinton’s position on abortion. But just because you disagree with a person on an issue is no reason to call them names or demonize them. We can have a civil discussion on issues without resorting to personal attacks.

    Luke 6:31
    Do to others as you would have them do to you.

  • Dominic

    Bill, do you really think Cam got me? OMG, I am so embarrassed. You and Cam can do the research….I don’t have to. There is an anti-Catholic population out there that accepts only the greatly exaggerated “sins” of the Church over 2 millennia. To quarrel with that ilk is a waste of time. Let him believe that Mohammed and Jesus created equally moral religions. It’s all kids play to me.

  • Dominic

    Yeah…..don’t stop til you fall off the cliff. Thanks.

  • Larry

    Lets go even further, Governor Scott Walker of Florida was caught deliberately omitting information which clears PP of baby parts selling.

    Lying appears to be the primary form of discussion for people who share your views.
    http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/florida/2015/09/8575790/scotts-office-scrubbed-release-cleared-planned-parenthood

    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/14e6280c406a4d21920c5594107dfdc4/indiana-clears-planned-parenthood-wrongdoing-after-videos

    I can’t help it if you have an aversion to facts.

    “Your only substantive objection is that they cause the viewer to infer that PP is selling fetal body parts for profit. ”

    That was the point of the video. That was the lie which is being repeated. Its the only substantive point that is being made when people bring the video up.

    I am finding news which supports the notion that people like yourself have compulsively lied in order to attack abortion rights. You are just flinging poo.

  • Larry

    It doesn’t help George because you aren’t going to read it. George cited directly information in the article verbatim.

    Making good faith arguments is not your thing. We get that.

  • Larry

    Yep, your response is to ignore, misconstrue and repeat. I can’t even pretend you have a reasonable POV here.

  • Leabrand

    Why do you keep harping on what the laws are on abortion in Europe ? As far as I can tell the posters all seem to be American. Why should what they do in Europe affect our viewpoint ?

    The only thing radical about American abortion laws are how especially unfair they are to lower income women. If you have some money you can travel, spend your waiting time In a hotel – whatever it takes. Not so for women with no easily accessible transportation or ability to take several days away from work or other children while an asinine waiting period passes. Abortion is still the law of the land and should be covered by Medicaid as well as private insurance. Why is this one procedure banned ? I didn’t agree with the Iraq war but my tax dollars still paid for it.

    I can’t help but wonder if the wealthy and childless are beating this drum – forcing women to bear children they can not take care of thereby creating a nice bank of adoptable babies – which are now in such short supply

  • Shawnie5

    “Demanding sources is just another way of bullying.”

    Hey, can I quote you on that? I have a sock puppet who can always use new material.

  • Jack

    Leabrand, I mention Europe to put things in perspective on the abortion issue, including just how extremist our abortion law is in comparison.

    Here we have a well-funded class of professional pro-abortion whiners who act as though the government is hanging abortionists rather than giving them virtual free rein at nearly every stage of fetal development, and who treat attempts to restrict abortion after 20 weeks as the return of the Spanish Inquisition. Meanwhile in Europe, which these same people view as liberal nirvana in every respect, far more enlightened than America, nations routinely have similar restrictions to the ones being proposed by the “anti-choicers” in America.

  • Jack

    So if someone’s life is dependent on me, I have the moral right to dispose of it at will? Again, see how well that knuckle-dragging argument works when a parent abandons a newborn and child protective services comes knocking on the door.

    Larry, your argument might work for Huns, Visigoths and Vikings, for marauders from a Mad Max film or Orcs from Lord of the Rings movies — and Genghis Khan might have thought it delightfully grand — but for civilized people, it’s abhorrent.

  • Jack

    Larry, apparently you don’t read very well. I read it and in fact just cited from it. Point 2, along with the accompanying chart, flatly contradicts the claim that there have been fewer abortions since Roe was decided.

    Off to reading comprehension class you must go.

  • Jack

    Larry, your response has proven the point I just made about you. You’re so brainwashed on abortion, you think the video and macabre discussion are completely innocuous so long as the body parts are being donated and not sold.

    It’s hard to believe you’re really that daft….but again, you fail to realize how most people — pro-choicers and pro-lifers alike — are thinking less about whether the body parts are being sold or donated and more about the fact that the fetuses being killed are developed enough to have body parts in the first place.

    You think that if you can show the body parts were donated, people will say, “okay, good, carry on…..”

    How wrong you are.

  • Jack

    Bernardo, the vast majority of Americans do not vote on the abortion issue. They rank other issues higher and cast their votes based on them.

  • Bernardo

    Jack,

    Please cite reliable references to support your conclusions.

  • Bernardo

    Jack,

    And if half of these aborting “mothers and fathers” have had two abortions, the Stu-pid Majority would still be a huge voting bloc i.e. ~50 million, enough votes to give any presidential candidate the differential votes needed considering many voters vote straight Democratic or Republican tickets no matter what the issues are.

  • Leabrand

    Jack – if it was only the 20 week cut off as the contention then we could argue the merits and lack thereof on that but there are, depending on which state you’re in, all sorts of other absurd hurdles being thrown up. The closing of virtually all the clinics in several states is huge problem, again unless you have money to travel. There are ridiculous waiting periods imposed (believe me, once the decision has been made by the woman she seldom changes her mind) – often it’s been shown to outwait the term cutoff and certainly to impose additional financial hardship. If she’s too poor to afford to travel and wait in a nearby hotel why would you think she had sufficient resources to raise this child ?

    Pro-abortion whiners ? Give me a break – how disingenuous of you ! Abortion was made legal by SCOTUS – how is demanding that the anti-choice whiners quit trying to undermine the law admirable ?

  • Beth

    Jack you are proposing it so no you explain it.

  • Beth

    No, they are certainly not more strict. The exceptions are part of the rules too.

  • Beth

    That is just a personal attack on Larry. Pathetic on your part Jack.

  • Dominic, yes, I do think that Cam obviously won that exchange. All you did was a content-free response. All your remonstrations since are just your own backpedaling plus excuses and strawmen that Cam clearly didn’t say.

    You were soundly trounced by Cam. Face up to it already.

  • Dominic, you really didn’t rebut what Cam said. Unfortunately for you, he’s right about you this time, and your namecalling doesn’t change that one iota.

  • Shawnie, you are your own sock puppet.

  • No, it’s more that many of the other pro-lifers hold similar views to the attackers and did not speak out against those killings, for the most part.

  • And anti-abortion is what they really are, not pro-life.

  • The case is more that it is the anti-abortion gangsters that are more anti-science in general.

  • Jack, Cam was right about you. And lay off the insults. Sheesh.

  • Stop the personal attacks, Jack. You are acting like a jerk and it doesn’t reflect well on you.

  • Cam

    No it isn’t, Jack. Science and medicine have long been in the lead in understanding development. Religion always lags behind, or else has had no factual basis at all.

  • Cam

    Again, stop with the demeaning lines Jack. You just look spiteful and you are stooping low.

  • Cam

    No, Jack I had it right. Show us the WMDs. The claimed WMDs were found. Period. All stop.

    Stop making excuses for one of our worst presidents ever.

  • Cam

    No, Jack I had it right. Show us the WMDs. The claimed WMDs were not found. Period. All stop.

    Stop making excuses for one of our worst presidents ever.

  • Cam

    Jack, you are BY FAR the worst in this thread for personal attacks. Take heed!

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