Some Mormons stocking up amid fears that doomsday could come this month

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Rotating Earth from Marvel via Wikimedia Commons.

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SALT LAKE CITY – "Preppers" believe that starting Sept. 13, the beginning of the Jewish High Holy Days, there will be another, even larger financial crisis, based on the United States' "wickedness." That will launch the "days of tribulation" — as described in the Bible.

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  • “The Time Is Now.”

    Yes it is time… to laugh at religion. Religion is such a bummer!

    “If ‘fulfilled prophecy’ is your criterion, why do you not believe in materialistic science, which has an unparalleled record of fulfilled prophecy? Consider, for example, eclipses.”
    – Carl Sagan

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  • dmj76


    What are you laughing at? How is this different from the beliefs of your congressman who expects the rapture any day? The people who govern us really do believe this kind of thing, and it affects their votes and the policies of your government.

  • Such differences of opinion remind me of the legendary cowboy who jumped on his horse and rode off in all directions. I’d agree with Boyd K. Packer, but what do I know? Anyway, another good column for which readers should be grateful.

  • When their desired apocalypse never comes to pass, they’ll totally ignore the failure of their “prediction” and pretend it’s inconsequential. Like the Millerites in the 1840s and the Jehovah’s Witnesses in 1914 — and more recently, the Harold Camping-ites and the propagators of the Maya Apocalypse 2012 hysteria — they’ll just proceed as though it all happened like they said, it’s just that the apocalypse was “invisible” and no one is aware of it yet. Yeah, they’ll also purposely ignore that one can’t have an “unseen apocalypse” (the word itself means “uncovering,” “unveiling,” or “revelation”).

    There will be NO apologies for having been wrong. There will be NO accounting for how the prediction went awry. There will be NO admission that anyone had taken advantage of the prediction to make money or get attention.

  • Larry

    So I take it you are already in your Armageddon Bunker after sending your family to the Rapture personally.

  • Garson Abuita

    This article is from the Salt Lake Tribune so it’s Mormon-centric, but in fairness there is a lot of apocalypticism running through right-leaning conspiracy-minded Christians as well right now surrounding this September. Many people are having “visions.” The end of the shemitah year is just one part of it — there’s also the UN General Assembly purportedly upcoming recognition of Palestinian statehood (i.e. an attack against Israel, central to the apocalypse) and the fact that President Obama and Pope Francis (i.e. the anti-Christ[s]) will be meeting in the White House on Sept. 23, Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Atonement.

  • Ed

    It’s funny. People have been finding “coincidences” much like those you list to “match” their fairy tales for centuries. Wonderful examples of confirmation bias and some selective thinking, but that apocalypse just never seems to show up in time.

  • Garson Abuita

    There’s also a lot of twisting to make things fit. Biblical references to the land of Israel are transformed to refer to the United States. The attacks of 9.11.2001 weren’t the key part of God’s judgment against America — it had to be the stock market drop on 9.17, the first Monday after the attacks when NYSE (a few blocks away) reopened. 9.17 was Elul 29, the last day of the Jewish calendar year and the end of that shemitah cycle.

  • @BB,

    “I compare Mormons to whackadoodle…”

    YES – I laugh at religion. But I don’t attack believers as you are doing.

    Many Christians seem to have no problem attacking believers of other faiths as part of their attack on their “wrong” religions. It is transparently bigoted of you to do that because your religion is just as whackadoodle – I PROMISE YOU THAT!

    “Zombies ROSE FROM THE DEAD and came out and walked for Jesus to raise awareness” – (Matthew 27:52)

    I promise you that your religion is as crazy and unbelievable as every other religion and every other superstition.

  • Larry

    Hey, I’ve seen that lousy movie with Mimi Rodgers and David Duchovny

    You are not fooling me.

    I know how you guys act when the Rapture is coming. 🙂

  • Christy

    Bible prophecies have already been fulfilled, just not in conformance with the Hollywood special-effects type of scenarios. That’s why few are aware of it.

    If you have an open mind, watch some videos that present some of the evidence. Note: these are educational videos, not entertainment. You will need to be capable of taking in details (i.e. not suffering from a short attention span.)

    Go to and enter the channel name “IntegralDestiny9” in the search box – then watch the videos. Some video titles are “Christ Has Returned”, “Armageddon is Over !”, “The Prophecy of the 7th Millennium” (about the fulfillment of Jewish prophecies), “Bible Prophecy and Mathematical Probabilities”, among many others.

  • “Atheists…animated mud pies”

    Umm. You are one, too! And it isn’t nearly as ridiculous as you think.

    All the living things on earth about are carbon based. That means the primary ingredient to life was – without any doubt – made by exploding suns!

    You have no clue what you are missing by choosing primitive boogey man nonsense instead of exploring the unfathomably amazing – yet real – building blocks of life.

    A Man without a Penis is forbidden from church…and his children are doomed for 10 generations.” – Yahweh (Deuteronomy 23:2)

    So the God who invented the Penis didn’t know it was a required organ for creating ‘generations’ !?

    🙂 Your god seems no smarter than a mud pie – i see where your getting it from. 🙂 LOLOL!

  • Christy,

    “Bible prophecies have already been fulfilled…”

    And so have the prophecies of Evolution. Consider Chromosome 2.
    Humans are not descended from Apes – we are a species of Ape.

    Time for some people to use the internet for something more important
    that pictures of kittens.

  • Ben in oakland

    About 25 years ago, there was a Korean Christian sect who’s leader had determined that the world was about to end. You had a specific date and time for this to happen. The sect followers sold their houses, gave away their possessions, and even had abortions, all waiting for the world to end at the appointed time. For some reason, Jesus didn’t appear, in the world didn’t end. The sector leader redid his calculations furiously, and realized he had made a mistake. He gave a new date and time, while the faithful/fearful waited for things to end.

    The new date and time arrived, with the faithful waiting faithfully. Again, Jesus failed to obey the summons. So one more time, the sect leader did his calculations and came up with a new date and time. Big surprise! Jesus didn’t show up.

    The sex later, formerly certain of his calculations, came up with this classic line: “I guess we made a mistake.”

    Ya think?

  • Ben in oakland

    Max, what’s more important than pictures of kittens? I only wish that religion new service allowed the posting of pictures.

  • Larry

    Lets not kid ourselves. Finding pictures of kittens is the SECOND most popular use of the internet.

  • Ben & Larry,
    “second most popular”
    um.. after another word for kittens?
    [i’ll stop now]

  • BB,

    “You are Christian b@sher”

    Name one place where a ridiculed a Christian for their belief. You won’t find it.

    You have obviously forgotten that I taught Sunday School, I was a Catholic for 45+ YEARS. I would no sooner ridicule a believer than I would ridicule my own grandmother! Which I would never do.

    But as for the prison called Christianity – that is different.
    I bash the belief that God committed suicide – yes I do. It is ridiculous.

    To be angry at the Prison is not to be angry at the Prisoners.
    Christianity is a prison. Believers are innocent victims – and I was one of them so I know what I’m talking about.

    Religion must be questioned without the slightest fear. It is the only chance to save the victims – A baseless claim deserves ridicule.

  • Alamedarev

    You’re right, except for an infinitesimal few who have apologized and have admitted they were wrong. Sympathy and reconciliation might just be the (im)possible future yet to be predicted. How do you, how do all of us, live after the “end of the world” doesn’t come? Even the insane need relationships…may the world be willing to put up with the rest of us until all of our endings

  • GTO

    Notice that Julie Rowe has sold 20,000 books, and there are 15+ million Mormons. Most Mormons have already made their mundane plans for October and plan to see them through. I’m a Utah Mormon and have purchased stuff already for Halloween. I do know people who are seeing import in Julie Rowe’s visions and writing and are nervously prepping, but they are few. Mormons don’t believe in a pre-trib rapture, either, and we love science. This article misrepresents us.

  • Bernardo

    Doomsday for the Mor-mons occurred the day the mythical Mo-roni communicated with Joe “Con Man” Smith!!

  • Bernardo

    Do-omsday for the Mor-mons occurred the day the mythical Mo-roni communicated with Joe “Co-n Man” Smith!!

    Some words hyphenated to defeat a word filter. Does anyone have a list of the forbidden words?

  • I was talking to a couple of co-workers today about end-time events. A lot of people seem to be interested in what’s happening, and even reading books on the subject. I think a lot of people realize something is up.

    The thought that popped into my mind was, “But no one seems to be asking why? Why are these devastating events coming on the world?”

    Those are the questions people should be asking. And there’s an answer. God will not allow a sinful, rebellious world to continue indefinitely. He has made the way through His Son Jesus Christ for sinful man to be reconciled to Him, but many don’t realize the need. The fact is that judgment is coming on the world.

    It’s important to prepare for the worst. It’s also important to expect to meet God. And to be ready.

  • Jack

    We can always count on Max to provide comic relief — albeit unintended — no matter the subject.

    The article is focused on doom-and-gloom, while Max is yelling about penises.

  • Jack,

    God has bad taste. Some of my favorite people don’t have penises.

  • ASF

    Thank you, GTO. I have many friends who are LDS, and we plan to see each other around Christmas, I’d hate to think they were trying to ditch me on purpose. Also, I’m very weary of the “hate-spew” towards people who choose to honor a faith in their life. Look, Atheists, I’m well aware of science. Just because I choose to believe in a divine, higher power, that I happen to call God, but many others call Allah, Yahweh, Mother Earth, or a myriad of other names, does not mean that I shelter myself from the realities of evolution and the Big Bang Theory. Please educate yourselves. I may be religious. I am Christian. That does not mean I cannot have faith AND reason in my life. They fit together perfectly, thank you. If you would like tolerance for your freedom from religion, please, just be respectful regarding my right to freedom of religion. Peace.

  • ASF

    Dude…if you were a Catholic for 45+ years, and you have this much anger built up inside of you, you were taught the religion wrong. It has everything to do with who TAUGHT you…not the RELIGION. You are taking out an awful lot of rage and hate on an ideal based upon “Love your neighbor as yourself”, seriously. Think about it.
    Perhaps religion ISN’T a prison. Maybe, believing in a power greater than yourself, is the best part of being…as it sets you completely, Free. Give of yourself for the greater good, not because you have to, but because you want to, of your own free will…that is a cleansing and freeing ideal! Life isn’t a dress rehearsal, you do whatever you want to make yourself happy. I’m letting you know, however, someone did a huge disservice to you regarding the Catholic faith. I’m very sorry for that…if you could ever know of it’s warm embrace, welcoming arms, and comfort, you would never call it a prison. You would call it Home.

  • Jack

    Speak for yourself, lad.

  • Jack

    The “sex” later?


  • Jack

    Dmj, are you saying that a conservative member of Congress who believes in a rapture is going to vote any differently from a conservative member of Congress who does not believe in a rapture?

    Somehow I doubt it.

  • Jack

    Be Brave, would you please warn us next time before lampooning the atheist view of the universe coming together all by its lonesome? I just coughed up my V8 from laughter.

  • Jack

    Max, you need to get rid of your God complex.

  • Jack

    Max, if we want to rank things on the crazy scale, I would say the notion that the whole universe and its intricate nature and properties emerged unaided out of nothingness is probably about as batsh*t crazy as you’re going to get. I’d sooner believe in talking dandelions or house spiders building rocket ships to Pluto with the skulls of dead giraffes.

  • Jack

    Max, you’re assuming that because you were a fear-filled believer, so is everyone else who believes as you once did.

  • Jack

    Max, how can Deuteronomy talk about “church” when it was written many hundreds of years before churches even existed?

    You have about as much credibility on the Bible as a witch doctor has on neurosurgery.

  • Re: “You’re right, except for an infinitesimal few who have apologized and have admitted they were wrong.”

    It’s possible such people exist, but as you said their number must be infinitesimal … because I know of no doomsayers who’ve ever apologized for being wrong and accepted responsibility for their (erroneous) claims.

  • dmj76

    You may be right in terms of how they actually vote. However, they will have a different view of long range planning. Some climate scientists talk about possible futures a hundred years from now. If you think Jesus may come back next week, it will change how you think about stuff like that. Other examples of long range issues are fusion energy, population, effects of robots on employment, etc. None of these would be of any interest to someone who thinks the world is coming to an end soon.
    Indeed it might not matter in terms of how people actually vote – good point. The non-fundamentalist conservative would be someone you could talk to and who might possible change their mind, and who might get me to change my mind (that has happened several times)
    best wishes

  • dmj76

    The long post I wrote to reply to you assumes we have conservatives in congress who are not religious fundamentalists. There are probably some of them, but they do not get much press. The number could be zero for all I know.
    Best wishes

  • Jack,

    You want to get picky about the various translations?
    Deuteronomy uses a word which cannot be used on this comment board.

    “A BITC*HED [A de-sexed person] cannot enter a Congregation of the Lord” – Yahweh (Deuteronomy 23:2)

    No penis, no pew.
    Call the “Congregation” a “house of worship” or a synagogue if you’d rather – but as usual you miss the points:

    1. Why is your God SO obsessed with sex parts?
    2. Why is your God obsessed with such unnatural ‘purities’?
    3. Why is your God SO WRONG about so many things?
    4. Why is your God so bigoted and why would his followers EVER be less so?

  • BB,

    “haughty materialists”

    The haughtiness begins with the CLAIM that a god exists:

    ISIS – Haughty, Bullying clerics claim Mohammed was flawless.
    CATHOLIC – Haughty, bullying clerics claim Jesus was flawless.

    Flawless!? That is the most haughty claim of all !

    “My death and resurrection requires the story of Jonah and fish to absolutely true ” – JESUS (Matthew 12:40)

    If you don’t think a person can live inside a fish for THREE DAYS then you have to agree with me the Jesus claims are far from FLAWLESS!



  • Jack,

    “I would say the notion that the whole universe…emerged unaided…”

    So therefore ….JESUS?

    So…you figured out thanks to your parents and your geographic location of birth that YOUR god is the only possible answer…
    A God who commits suicide? That’s the best you have?
    And you think all other proposed answers and ALL OTHER HYPOTHESIZED GODS ARE RIDICULOUS?

    If nothing can come from nothing, where did you God come from !?
    And if your God “always existed”, why can’t it be possible that the universe “always existed”(which is far more likely).

    Your ignorant guesswork is neither impressive nor persuasive and you should be smart enough to know that! There is absolutely no reason to believe a God exists at all.

  • Ben in oakland

    The same could be said of a great many so-called Christians, Jack, starting with many of the commenters here.

  • Ben in oakland

    It’s my ipad, Jack. I proof read something fairly well, despite a mild dyslexia. Hit post, and suddenly, like a communion wafer transformed into human heart tissue, my words are transformed.

  • Ben in oakland

    Most of us are quite respectful of the faith of others. My arguments are with theocracy and dominionism, not faith.

    It’s the faithful that seem to have trouble with it.

  • Ben in oakland

    and minute, hour, day, week, month, year, or century now, god is going to do something or other. right.

    But why prepare for the worst? Isn’t god gonna do something really nice for the people that believe in him? You should be welcoming it. and hey, if you starve to death, or are killed by poison gas, you’re going to get your reward– and minute, hour, day, week, month, year, or century now

  • Ben in oakland

    And maybe not having a god to tell you what to do sets you completely free– to be as moral or immoral as you like.

    Just like having a god.

  • @Jack,

    ” you’re assuming…”

    No I’m not.
    Willful self-deception is the Christian doctrine:
    “Believe or be condemned” (Mark 16:16)

    That is like putting a gay person on top of a building and commanding him to accept Allah’s law or he will be thrown off. That is a mafia offer “do it or else” – it is Sado-masochistic terrorism.

    So I can’t know whether you really believe in a Christ or if you just live in mortal fear of Jesus the Godfather. Even Christians themselves can’t know!

    What good is religion? Instead of bashing Atheists you people should answer my questions.

  • ASF,

    “you have this much anger built up inside of you, you were taught the religion wrong.”

    You have it backwards. There is no religion of peace. The Bible is a book of conquest, not morality or love. I figured it out and abandoned it:

    “I will kill her children with death” – JESUS (Revelation)

    The Religions are all angry and disgusting – humanity under normal circumstances would never do the things commanded in religion – THAT IS WHY YOU IGNORE MOST OF IT.

    But read the news and learn who the angry people are. They are all religious:

    Al Queda
    Nation of Islam
    Christian Patriots
    Christian Vigilante Groups

    This is their motivation:
    “Execute them in front of me” – JESUS (19:27) Parable of the Parousia
    “Slay the Infidels” – Allah (SURAH 9.2)
    “Kill the unbelievers in daylight” – Yahweh (Deuteronomy)

    Fantasies and nonsense.

  • ASF,

    “…just be respectful regarding my right to freedom of religion.”

    Please stop that.
    No Atheist is trying to destroy your rights. But it would be nice if you could STOP its negative nonsense from getting into our laws!

    “Execute them”- JESUS (Luke 19:27)
    “Hate Them” – JESUS (Luke 14:26)
    “Avoid Them” – ROMANS (16:17)
    “Do not associate with the GUILTY..” (1 Corinthians 5:11)
    “Do not even to eat with such a one.” (1 Corinthians 5:11)
    “Do not receive him…or greet him..” (2 John 1:10)
    “tell him his fault.” (Matthew 18:15)
    “Have nothing to do with him!” (Titus 3:9-11)
    “LET HIM BE REMOVED” (1 Corinthians 1:13)
    “In the name of Jesus..keep away from him!” (2 Thess 3:6)
    “CURSE HIM” – (1 Cor. 16:22)
    “Deem them unworthy” – JESUS (Matt 10:13)

    Humans have rights. Bad ideas have no rights.

  • Daniel Berry, NYC

    P. T. Barnum coulda’ made a fortune in Utah but Joseph Smith beat’im to it.

  • Ben,

    “like a communion wafer transformed into human heart tissue, my words are transformed.”

    Actual LOL.

  • Bernardo

    More dooms days for Mormonism:

    Mormonism will slowly fade from society as will contemporary Christianity and Islam because of the obvious problems with the founders of these religions especially their angelic/satanic hallucinations and related prophecies. “Pretty and ugly wingie thingies” simply do/did not exist.

  • Bernardo

    More Dooms Days for Mormonism:

    Old time” Mormonism as well as “old time” Catholicism, Islam and Judaism relied and rely on prophets and prophecies for profit/greed. Once those born into this foolishness see the truth, all religions will slowly pass away

  • Bernardo


    Ok one more time, from a fellow atheist. Mark 16: 16 is historically nil. e.g. and Professor Gerd Ludemann’s analyses (Jesus After 2000 Years, pp. 115-116)

  • Bernardo

    More doom days for Mormonism:

    Mormonism will slowly fade from society as will contemporary Christianity and Islam because of the obvious problems with the founders of these religions especially their angelic/satanic hallucinations and related prophecies. “Pretty and ugly wingie, horn-blowing thingies” simply do/did not exist.

  • Bernardo,

    “historically nil.”

    Can you prove any statements by Jesus to be factual? And not to be “historically nil”?
    I need to see something more persuasive than Gerd Ludemann’s analysis.

    According to my sources on historicity: Richard M. Price, Richard Carrier, Boltmann, The 12 Caesars, Rise and Fall of Rome and my own knowledge of Homeric myths, Greek myths and Israeli Archaeology it appears possible that Jesus was entirely fabricated.

    I prefer the mythicists analysis better than Gerd Ludermann’s analysis.
    Ludermann assumes “Q” actually existed. I’m not convinced though I’m open to evidence.
    Why are you confident a real Jesus actually existed?
    The story of Jesus seems influenced by Odysseus – why should any of it be true?

  • larry

    “I would say the notion that the whole universe and its intricate nature and properties emerged unaided out of nothingness is probably about as batsh*t crazy as you’re going to get.”

    I would say so as well. Especially since it has absolutely nothing to do with the scientific theory you are trying to ridicule but misrepresenting badly. 🙂

    “I’d sooner believe in talking dandelions or house spiders building rocket ships to Pluto with the skulls of dead giraffes.”

    That is still more credible than the story of Noah’s Ark. And Creationists are expected to claim that one is true. But then again Creationists don’t really believe anything they say in public. Lying is an integral part of the Creationist position.

  • Bernardo


    Once again, I recommend perusing the studies of Professors Crossan and Ludemann, two highly trained religion historians to see the proof that Jesus did exist.

    You can find their books on Amazon or at Historical Jesus Theories, – the names of many of the contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the titles of their over 100 books on the subject.

    You also might want to peruse Early Christian Writings,
    – a list of early Christian documents to include the year of publication and a review of each.

    Until you peruse these studies, you will not be able to make judgments about the existence of Jesus or his actions and words.

  • But you seem to be missing the fact that Crossan and Ludermann are not conclusive. Even they say they cannot be sure!

  • Bernardo


    But then again you have not read their analyses or those of many of the others listed in the references previously noted. Until you do, you cannot sit in judgement. A place to start? Professor Crossan’s book, The Excavation of Jesus (with Professor Reed).

  • @Bernardo,

    “But I’ll leave it to the reader to decide, and ask you to reflect on the evidence in the gospels…”
    “Ask of the gospels the questions arising from the architecture of Kingdom building…”
    – Jonathan Reed
    Excavating Jesus

    This is not scholarship. Crossan and Reed think the gospels are authoritative evidence somehow – they are not. The New Testament is an artifact of history – not a source of history.

    According to archaeology the first gospel was Mark then Luke, Matthew and John. They were written from 70 C.E. to 100 C.E. long after the Jesus characters lived.
    The texts are contradictory, infused with well-worn legends, retro-fittings of the lost war with the Romans, myths from nearby religions like Zoroaster and outright superstitions as in “The 12 Ceasars” written around the same period.
    We are left with no authoritative evidence about Jesus.

  • John Haringsma

    Religion is a box that stunts intelligence and stops progress. What is crazy to me is these Mormons preach of God and scriptures… Well I’m no bible thumper… I do believe false prophets will come? Sounds to me like a slew of authors trying to make money off of their crazy beliefs, and a religion trying to inflict fear on simple minded people as a means of control. Is this not terrorism in a different form?

  • Bernardo


    From another reference you failed to read:

    2. Early Christian Writings,
    – a list of early Christian documents to include the year of publication–and a review of each

    30-60 CE Passion Narrative
    40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
    50-60 1 Thessalonians
    50-60 Philippians
    50-60 Galatians
    50-60 1 Corinthians
    50-60 2 Corinthians
    50-60 Romans
    50-60 Philemon
    50-80 Colossians
    50-90 Signs Gospel
    50-95 Book of Hebrews
    50-120 Didache
    50-140 Gospel of Thomas
    50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
    50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
    65-80 Gospel of Mark

  • Bernardo,

    Thanks for that list. I’ve read all of those. None of those writers met Jesus so you are not making any progress. The dates are not conclusive. We don’t know for certain who wrote any of them:

    “Mark” was not one of the Apostles. We have no idea who he was. The authors may have been the Marcions. According to his own Gospel he never met Jesus.

    “Q” has not been proven to exist and looks unlikely.

    “Gospel of Thomas” is not proof of anything – it is inconclusive.

    Paul never met a physical person named Jesus. His letters then are delusional which explains why they are so violently opposed to outsiders.

    Only a handful of Paul’s letters appear to be mostly authentic and yet they may have been written by Philo of Alexandria as a way to prove a physical Jesus did not exist. Paul’s spirit Jesus does not match any of the Gospel stories and appear to be an inspiration for inventing a physical Jesus later.

    All of it is completely inconclusive.

  • Bernardo


    I doubt you read the documents but if you say so. How about Professors Crossan and Reeds studies published in their book “Excavation of Jesus”? Read from cover to cover?

    Anyway, from my reviews of the historic Jesus, there is sufficient proof that Jesus lived. There, however, is sufficient proof that only ~20 of his actions and words were authentic. Regarding the authors of the NT and epistles, see Father Raymond Brown’s epic book on the NT. Even he agrees that M, M, L and J were probably not apostles and that very little is known about them.

    So you will be an atheist who believes that there was no Jesus and I will remain an atheist believing the above.

    Other takes on said Jesus:

    Continued below:

    :Jesus the Myth: Heavenly Christ
    Earl Doherty
    Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy

    Jesus the Myth: Man of the Indefinite Past
    Alvar Ellegård
    G. A. Wells

    Jesus the Hellenistic Hero
    Gregory Riley

  • Bernardo

    Oops, make that “20% of the actions and words”

    From Historical Jesus Theories,

    :Jesus the Myth:
    Earl Doherty – questionable educational background
    Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy – ditto
    (Atheist Max)

    Jesus the Myth: Man of the Indefinite Past
    Alvar Ellegård
    G. A. Wells

    Jesus the Hellenistic Hero
    Gregory Riley

    Jesus the Revolutionary
    Robert Eisenman

    Jesus the Wisdom Sage
    John Dominic Crossan
    Robert Funk
    Burton Mack
    Stephen J. Patterson

    Jesus the Man of the Spirit
    Marcus Borg
    Stevan Davies
    Geza Vermes

    Jesus the Prophet of Social Change
    Richard Horsley
    Hyam Maccoby
    Gerd Theissen

    Jesus the Apocalyptic Prophet
    Bart Ehrman
    Paula Fredriksen
    Gerd Lüdemann
    John P. Meier
    E. P. Sanders

    Jesus the Savior
    Luke Timothy Johnson
    Robert H. Stein
    N. T. Wright

  • Jack

    dmj, if you think your post was long, I guess you didn’t read my seven or eight-post response to your question about Christianity and hell!

    Your post above was the essence of brevity in comparison.

    I hope you did read at least some of what I wrote, as I was taking your question quite seriously and felt it deserved an exhaustive (but hopefully not exhausting) response.

  • Jack

    Well, Ben, one doesn’t exclude the other. I said half-jokingly that Max had a God complex, but that doesn’t mean he has a monopoly on that malady.

  • Jack

    Max, don’t evade. Only a biblical illiterate would talk about the “church” in the Old Testament in a translational context.

    Now don your dunce cap and return to your corner.

  • Jack

    Be Brave, I’m agreeing with you.

  • Jack

    I know….I’m just poking a little fun, Ben. We’ve all made humorous mistakes in typing.

  • Jack

    True, but it’s equally true, Max, that people are entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts.

    That’s the problem with so many of your posts.

  • Jack

    Ben, either God exists or doesn’t exist. That question is apart from whether belief in God makes people good or not.

    What I assume you detest, as I do as well, is the notion that we have to tell the kiddies that God exists for some utilitarian purpose, ie to make them behave.

  • Jack

    The challenge of a Max post, or at least those posts where he is actually standing on his hind legs and speaking for himself rather than erecting Bible billboards to shield himself from dialogue, is that every sentence is so riddled with dogmatic proclamations and dismissals and errors of fact or logic, it would take 10 posts to correct all of the nonsense.

  • Bernardo:

    “…So you will be an atheist who believes that there was no Jesus…”

    That isn’t what I said.
    I said – “I don’t know whether a Jesus existed or not. And there is no reason to believe a Jesus existed.”

    That doesn’t mean ‘I believe there was no Jesus’ …
    I simply see NO REASON to believe any of the ancient paperwork is reliable.
    Unless you can demonstrate proof for something I have no reason to believe.

  • Bernardo:

    I am 50+ years old. I have been studying Christian history as a hobby all my life. Mostly as a devout believer in Jesus.
    I have read all the apcryphal gospels. You can’t show me an ancient gospel I have not read. I have read all of Bart Ehrman’s books including “The Gospel of Judas” and his most recent, “The Historic Jesus” (his only horrible and unconvincing book).
    Yes, I have read “Jesus the Hellenistic Hero” and “Jesus the Revolutionary”.
    Also, “On Being Christian” by Jung, “Mere Christianity” and everything by CS Lewis. I have read “John of the Cross” and listened to hours of Crossan regarding the Jesus Seminar which I read (and watched the film).
    I’ve read everything by Bart Ehrman, Elaine Pagels, Robert M. Price, Richard Carrier, Sam Harris, Dan Dennett, and countless others..

    All we have is ancient paperwork. There is no convincing reason (to me) to think Jesus was a real person.

  • Jack,

    “Max…every sentence is so riddled with dogmatic proclamations …”

    How did you turn “i don’t see a reason to believe” into a dogmatic proclamation?
    Why don’t you just give the convincing evidence I keep asking for so you can settle this nonsense?

    Where is the evidence for Jesus?

  • Bernardo:

    Let’s try this another way.

    Please show me a single sentence by Jesus which you can demonstrate as something he ACTUALLY said with an argument to back up your claim.

    Please. Give it a try. I want to see something which is provable.

  • Jack,

    “It’s not a “church” in the Old Testament”

    That isn’t the point.
    Are saying your god is okay with ‘Penis-less men’ in churches but not in “Congregations of the Lord” or “Synogogues” (Deuteronomy 23:2)?

    Why would god change his mind depending on what sort of building is the gathering place?

  • Jack,

    “Opinions but not their own facts”

    All we have is opinion regarding gods. There is no fact you can point to regarding a god so it is therefore my opinion that your claims are based on nothing at all.

  • @Jack,

    “either God exists or doesn’t exist.”

    And we know the likely answer since you don’t have it.

    “…whether belief in God makes people good or not.”

    We already have an answer to that. Believing in god makes people behave terribly – they have an imaginary ‘get out of jail’ card for any immorality – and it makes people do wicked things.

  • Bernardo


    But apparently you have not read Professor Crossan and Reed’s studies published in their book Excavating Jesus. Get back to us when you finished perusing said book.

  • Bernardo,

    Why can’t you just explain why Crossan is so persuasive to you? Why don’t you just share with me the argument he makes? What is his fundamental evidence<i? which you have been pursuaded by?

  • Bonnie Parmenter

    Being a Christian, makes all the theories make sense. There are to many signs to ignore. The 266th pope, the 266th day of the year, meeting on the day of atonement the tetred blood moon which will not happen for 500 years. The 7th year. The world is a mess. More wars, more torchering, more slavery, more starving, more sicknesses, more pollution, more crime, more corruption, more addicts, more suicides ; there is more of everything evil than ever before and the world has been bad before. There is also more good and god will come soon to save the righteous from the suffering caused by the evil.

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