African bishops play a major role, for first time, at contentious Vatican summit

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Bishops gathered at the Vatican for the synod on the family. Photo courtesy Rosie Scammell

Bishops gathered at the Vatican for the synod on the family. Photo courtesy Rosie Scammell

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VATICAN CITY (RNS) But even as leaders of this young and dynamic church wield newfound influence, there are questions about whether their contributions can help the synod reach an elusive agreement this week.

  • Bernardo

    And the major problem with this story? They are all GUYS!!

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  • Fran

    When one has truth and exercises love, there is no disunity, division, or conflicts.

  • Sister Geraldine Marie, OP, RN, PHN

    Hear, hear for the African churchmen! They are absolutely, positively correct!
    The problem in the West lies in the argument being changed by homosexuals into, “homophobia.” That is NOT true! It is homosexual ACTS that are wrong, living together being one of the worst.
    For the divorced and remarried, acceptance for the person, not the sin! The Church must not forget her divine mission, “To preach the word, whether in season or not.” 2Timothy4:2. This quotation is from one of the pastoral epistles of St. Paul.
    Giving into sin does not make one holy, but resisting and obedience to God’s commandments does. And people wonder why they are dreadfully unhappy?!

  • Cheryl

    Fran, I think you’d really appreciate truth in Crystals. Have you ever tried Amethyst or Dark Quartz to enhance your aura, or even Amber? If you post your email or phone num I can get you started.

  • Ed

    True, good point. Crossdressers, though, in pretty expensive dresses at that.

  • Bob

    It is your responsibility Pope Francis to help erase the Catholic Church’s shameful and immoral myths of gay people by making inclusiveness and dignity of all a major priority!! Too many gay people are being attacked and murdered in East Africa and your immoral dogma has a lot of blame for that!!!!! Please do it now!!!!

  • Pete

    Hi Bob,

    A wast majority – more than 99% of worlds population belive being gay is “shameful and immoral”

    Whereas you and a mere les than 1% minority of ur-like-minded people say what 99% believe is “shameful and immoral” – it is not democratic. Bring data points and convince 99% why they are wrong; Just by improportiante money/media power, dont try to cheat majority

  • Leaha

    Far more than “1%” of the world thinks bigotry and hatred is wrong and morally repugnant. Hell, more than 1% of the world is lgbt, never mind straight allies. And I think if you break it down by age the difference becomes even bigger. Sorry Pete but in a few decades this won’t even be an argument. The lgbt community will simply be seen as people. Your side is losing. Everything must evolve.

  • mary

    Thank God for the clarity and discernment of the African clergy.

    Bigotry and hatred have no bearing on homosexuality being disordered.
    You are right that in a few decades this will no longer be an argument because the “fad” will be over by then.

  • mary

    Everything must evolve? That’s a ridiculous remark.

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  • Sister Geraldine Marie, OP, RN, PHN

    Hear, hear for the African churchmen! They are absolutely, positively correct!
    The problem in the West lies in the argument being changed by homosexuals into, “homophobia.” That is NOT true! It is homosexual ACTS that are wrong, living together being one of the worst.
    For the divorced and remarried, acceptance for the person, not the sin! The Church must not forget her divine mission, “To preach the word, whether in season or not.” 2Timothy4:2. This quotation is from one of the pastoral epistles of St. Paul.
    Giving into sin does not make one holy, but resisting and obedience to God’s commandments does. And people wonder why they are so unhappy?!

  • Bernardo

    Sister,

    Might want to do some perusing of the authors of the epistles of Paul. Once you do, you will discover the the Timothy (and Titus) epistles were not written by Paul but were composed by want-to-be Pauls i.e. they have no “divine” guidance.

    Some background information:

    From Father Raymond Brown’s epic NT reference book.

    Excerpts: The First Letter to Timothy p. 654, 80-90% of the critical scholars believe the letter was written by a pseudo Paul toward the end of the first century, early second century.

    “Authenticity – Probably written by a disciple of Paul or a sympathetic commentator on the Pauline heritage several decades after the apostle’s death.

    p. 639 ditto for the Titus epistles.

    See also Professor JD Crossan’s conclusions in his book (with Professor Jonathan Reed), In Search of Paul, about the Timothy and Titus. (Same conclusions as Father Brown).

    See also Professor Bruce Chilton’s book, Rabbi Paul.

  • Richard Rush

    Pete, somewhere around 99% of the world’s population once believed that the earth was flat.

  • Richard Rush

    Mary,

    While it will take longer than a few decades, Christianity will finally take its rightful place alongside Greek Mythology and all the other defunct religions, but homosexuality will still exist, just as it existed long before anyone ever heard of Jesus Christ.

  • mary

    And that’s a problem for you because . . . ?

  • mary

    Richard, Richard, Richard,

    At sometime during your lifetime, you must’ve realized that Zeus and Hera were not historical figures, but Moses, Solomon, King David and Christ were. Perhaps I’m assuming too much on your behalf.
    Also, your belief that “around 99% of the world’s population once believed the earth was flat,” is the myth.

    Plato and Aristotle knew the earth was a sphere.

    “According to Professor Jeffrey Burton Russell, professor of history at the University of California in Santa Barbara, the flat-earth idea seems to be a relatively recent invention that reached its peak only after Darwinists tried to discredit the Bible.
    Professor Russell said in his book Inventing the Flat Earth, first released in the early 1990s, that up until the time of Columbus “nearly unanimous scholarly opinion pronounced the earth spherical”. Professor Russell said he believes that the flat-earth myth can largely be traced back to a story by Washington Irving, which relates a mythical…

  • Desmond Daly

    Absolutely? Positively? There are a lot of false absolutes and positives floating around these days.

  • mary

    ” . . . epistles were not written by Paul but were composed by want-to-be Pauls i.e. they have no “divine” guidance.”

    Is your assumption that want-to-be Pauls had no divine guidance? Or are you saying that was Raymond E. Brown’s assumption?

    No one knows if Raymond E. Brown had any divine guidance. What we all do know is that Raymond E. Brown was not God. He was just a man trying to use his tools and understand scripture out of its context.

    So, when Sister Geraldine quotes:“To preach the word, whether in season or not.” 2Timothy4:2, one has to determine if that quote is a timeless truth.

    Obviously, to any rational, open-minded person, preaching the word of God in season or not is a timeless truth. I am sure, Raymond E. Brown, as a Roman Catholic priest, believed that as well as everything else regarding his faith when he read the Gospels, prepared his homily and knew that during the sacrifice of the mass transubstantiation was a reality he never denied.

  • Ted

    Homosexual lust is no worse than heterosexual, and many “churchmen” would do well to examine their own logs on this topic, and rant less about others’ specks.

    The real question is whether love can be expressed physically regardless of the intent to procreate. And, until the church stops marrying the aged and sterile, it’s hypocrisy in this will remain obvious.

    Matthew 19:12 makes clear Jesus had no issue with those who do not procreate. Now if only more Christians would follow Christ, rather than their own fears and bigotries.

  • mary

    Desmond says:

    “Absolutely? Positively? There are a lot of false absolutes and positives floating around these days.”

    How very astute of you. You must be referring to recent court rulings that declare words have no meaning and deny that oaths to God made on Bibles in courts have no connection to the laws of God upon which this country is founded.

    It is astonishing that puerile solipsistic propaganda and sophistic arguments so easily separate the fools from the wise.

  • Richard Rush

    Mary,

    Prior to the 6th Century BC, the historic record seems to show that virtually everyone believed the earth was flat. . . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

    If Moses, Solomon, King David and Christ were historical figures, it proves nothing insofar as the existence of a god.

  • mary

    Ted,

    I think the Church has examined its “logs” and removed them quite openly and admirably without any help or logical explanation for the complete and utter failure of psychiatric and psychological therapy programs recommended to the Church by the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association to which all the offending homosexual priests who molested teenage boys were sent for clinical diagnosis, evaluation and treatment and to whom medical clearances were issued. Now it’s your turn to take the log at of your own eye.

    You state, Ted, that “Homosexual lust is no worse than heterosexual [lust] . . .” Are you saying that “lust,” “pornography,” “promiscuity,” and general “debauchery” is always unacceptable?

    You ask simply: “The real question is whether love can be expressed physically regardless of the intent to procreate.”

    If “love” is not pro-creation, in favor of all life, then it is a lie because Christ is the Way, the…

  • mary

    Poor Cheryl lives in the stone age.

  • mary

    To which “immoral myths of gay people” do you refer?

  • mary

    Richard replies:
    Mary,

    “Prior to the 6th Century BC, the historic record seems to show that virtually everyone believed the earth was flat. . . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

    Really? Moses wrote the first 5 books of the bible around 1400 BC, the 14th cen. B.C (Before Christ) and stated the earth was round.
    And:
    “If Moses, Solomon, King David and Christ were historical figures, it proves nothing insofar as the existence of a god.”

    If? Actually, reason, logic and science prove the existence of God.

  • mary

    The LGBTs have always be seen as people. Your point, Leaha?

  • mary

    Amen.

  • mary

    If?
    What it does prove is that you didn’t know what the difference was between Christianity, Judaism and mythology.

  • Richard Rush

    Mary, like all religions they are myths/fallacies/fantasies invented and passed down through the ages by humans.

  • Bernardo

    But there is no god so your whole point is moot. And since you have brought god into the discussion, please show your proof that one exists.

    Regarding transubstantiation:

    An update from a Catholic professor of Theology:

    “Transubstantiation is still a Catholic doctrine, but it never meant a
    literal transforming of bread and wine into the physical body and blood of Jesus. “Substance” in medieval philosophy referred to the essence of a thing and was not reducible to material appearance. Transubstantiation is a way of expressing belief that Jesus Christ is SOME HOW present in the consecrated bread and wine in a special way. Some theologians believe that “transignificantion” would be a better term today than transubstantiation.

    But then again the basis of all of this is the Last Supper which by rigorous historic testing was a non-event. e.g. See http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/016_Supper_and_Eucharist

  • Bernardo

    And one more time some words of wisdom from 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis:

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482 NY Times review and important enough to reiterate.

    New Torah For Modern Minds

    “Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. (prob·a·bly
    Adverb: Almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell).

    The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation. “

  • Ed

    None of the above, mary, but thanks for playing.

  • Ed

    Uh, no, mary.

    The bible has multiple different claims about the shape of the earth. All that is part of the proof that the bible should be discarded.

  • Ed

    Why don’t you hazard a guess, mary? Go on, give it a whirl.

  • Bernardo

    Oaths to god? What god? I like Zeus or the Egyptians’

    “Hail to thee, great God, Lord of the Two Truths. I have come unto thee, my Lord, that thou mayest bring me to see thy beauty. I know thee, I know thy name, I know the names of the 42 Gods who are with thee in this broad hall of the Two Truths . . . Behold, I am come unto thee. I have brought thee truth; I have done away with sin for thee. I have not sinned against anyone. I have not mistreated people. I have not done evil instead of righteousness . . .

    And said Egyptians beat the Torah et al by at least a few centuries.

  • Pasta Be Upon You

    Ramen.

    there, fixed that for you.

  • Richard Rush

    Mary,

    “Moses wrote the first 5 books of the bible around 1400 BC, the 14th cen. B.C (Before Christ) and stated the earth was round.” ‘Round’ or ‘circle’ does not mean ‘sphere,’ just as ‘square’ does not mean ‘cube.’ The predominant belief in those days was that the earth was round (or circular) and flat.

    “Actually, reason, logic and science prove the existence of God.” That would only be true in your fantasies.

  • mary

    Ed,

    Really. Let’s have the list you made of the multiple claims.

  • mary

    Dear Pasta Be Upon Uranus,

    I don’t believe I asked for your help. And, should I one day be in need of help, you’d certainly be the last person I’d ever seek out for anything that I thought needed to be fixed.

  • mary

    So, Ed, you’re a racist as well as a cynic? Isn’t your comment a microaggression against all Arabic men who also wear robes?

  • mary

    Proof? Conjugate To be.
    Next.
    Transubstantiation.
    Obviously a discussion on the distinction between substance and accidents would be lost on you.
    Suffice it to say: Corpus Christi.
    The Last Supper takes place at Passover. Jesus was a Jew.
    Pentecost takes place on Pentecost. I know that went over your head.
    You can argue all you want because you don’t know what you are talking about. I do know. If you want help, just ask so you don’t go through life making a complete fool out of yourself.

  • mary

    Ed,

    Did I ask you?

  • mary

    Bernardo,

    Hello? Is there anybody in there?

  • mary

    Done.

  • mary

    Yo–Eddie, Bernardio, Pasta Boy, Desmondo, Ricardo, Teddy, Bobo and the rest of your personas:

    Don’t let your hatred consume you.

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