Ben Carson wants abortion outlawed, even in cases of rape or incest

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U.S. Republican candidate Dr. Ben Carson talks to reporters after speaking at the National Press Club in Washington, on October 9, 2015. Photo courtesy of REUTERS/Jonathan Ernst
*Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-GROSSMAN-COMMENTARY, originally transmitted on Oct. 12, 2015.

U.S. Republican candidate Dr. Ben Carson talks to reporters after speaking at the National Press Club in Washington, on October 9, 2015. Photo courtesy of REUTERS/Jonathan Ernst *Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-GROSSMAN-COMMENTARY, originally transmitted on Oct. 12, 2015.

WASHINGTON — Rape and incest are no reasons to terminate a pregnancy, front-running Republican presidential candidate Ben Carson said Sunday (Oct. 25).

Buoyed by polls showing him running ahead of Donald Trump in Iowa, the retired neurosurgeon said exceptions should be considered only in rare cases involving the mother’s health, “if people can come up with a reasonable explanation of why they would like to kill a baby.”

Speaking on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” Carson said he “would love” to see the Supreme Court’s 1973 decision in Roe v. Wade which legalized abortion overturned.

As for instances of rape or incest — exceptions that are often made by other abortion opponents — Carson said: “All you have to do is go and look up the many stories of people who have led very useful lives who were the result of rape or incest.”

Mothers should not have the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, Carson said, just as slave owners did not have the right to do whatever they wanted to their slaves. Had abolitionists allowed that, he said, “Where would we be?”

  • Ben in oakland

    “Mothers should not have the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, Carson said, just as slave owners did not have the right to do whatever they wanted to their slaves.”

    But they DID have the legal right to do just that, just like they had the legal right to own other human beings.

  • Pingback: Ben Carson wants abortion outlawed, even in cases of rape or incest - mosaicversemosaicverse()

  • Eric

    So a fetus is the equivalent of a slave and pregnant women are the equivalent of slave owners with no rightful claim on what happens in, to, and by their own bodies? That’s some twisted logic for you. But perhaps the good doctor could explain how women themselves aren’t reduced to machines, and hence property, according to his bizzaro world scenario?

  • Ben Carson reminds us of what happens when we stop thinking. I have some questions for him:

    1. How many years of prison should be given to a 19 year old girl who get pregnant from a rape and gets an abortion ?

    2. Should a 19 year old girl who is doing well in college go to prison for the rest of her life on a murder charge if she gets and abortion?

    3. Since Carson’s interest is in placing innocent lives over a criminal lives will he also be demanding prisoners surrender their kidneys to save innocent children dying of kidney disease?

    You can have dogma or you can have thought. You can’t have both!

  • Bernardo

    Ben chances of winning the presidency were just reduced to zero. Why is that you ask? The huge voting bloc consisting of 60-80 million voters (female and their necessary male counterpart) who have had abortions since R vs.W (1973).

  • Dominic

    Hooray for Ben Carson!

  • George Nixon Shuler

    Carson, at this writing is leading in Iowa caucus polls. That could change, but he could conceivably win Iowa. That’s of little importance. Few remember Pat Robertson won the Iowa caucuses in 1988. The Republican establishment could reconcile themselves with Donald Trump as their nominee, but not Carson. He’s a sure-fire loser for the General Election. I suspect when the nominee is chosen he will not be asked to come and raise a gripped hand with the nominee. Jindahl, Santorum, and Huckabee are similarly ballot box poison. Right-wing Christians are dying out. Moreover they are rightfully despised by the bulk of the voters.

  • Bernardo

    Make that “Ben’s chances of winning the presidency were just reduced to zero.”

  • Jon Trouten

    Reagan, Bush 2, and Obama all won the Iowa Caucus. The Iowa Caucus is a good indicator of success except when it’s not.

  • Doc Anthony

    True. 50 or 60 MILLION abortions by now, with 97 percent or more NOT having anything to do with “rape, incest, or the life of the mother.”

    When your nation is THAT addicted to abortion-on-demand, when your nation is in THAT much of a hurry to experience Divine Judgment, then there’s no chance that the masses are going to vote for anybody like Ben Carson. Period.

  • Elledra

    Wait–do I have this right? Ben Carson is saying that being a pregnant woman is basically the same thing as being a slave owner? So the “minimal rules of behavior” (were there any?) expected of slave owners are to be expected of pregnant women? This is just plain weird in SO many ways.

  • Bingo

    Carson is the most decent, honest and moral of men.

  • Bernardo

    But not one who thinks clearly.

  • Jack

    If by decency, honest and morality you mean somebody who will lie, pander to fanatics and boast of his hatred of the Constitution and his desire to replace it with a fundamentalist theocracy, then yeah he’s all those things.

  • Incidentally, slave owners DID have the right to do whatever they wanted to their slaves, including raping, mutilating and killing them at will. All of which was defended from countless pulpits as being God’s biblically-ordained will. We have the Southern Baptist Convention today because the born-again refused to let go of slavery.

  • Garson Abuita

    Thomas Jefferson, call your office..

  • Melissa Songer

    It’s actually the pregnant woman who he wants to treat as a slave.

  • Pantheist

    Well, Ben, maybe you should not put the blame on women and start holding the millions of men 50% responsible and accountable for their 50% role in unplanned pregnancy. When is the last time you heard a man plead with his partner, wife, or girlfriend to not go ahead with an abortion? Where are all of these men who impregnated these women? I’ll tell you where; paying for the abortions or off being a repeat offender and leaving the woman to be on her own. Stop putting all of the blame and shame on the woman when the man is equally responsible. If you’re going to force a woman to have a baby in cases of incest or rape, you better have a lot of people ready to adopt these kids because it certainly shouldn’t fall on the mother who is the VICTIM OF A CRIME in those cases. A man should have no say in what a woman does in the case of an unplanned pregnancy unless he is willing to raise and care for the child for the rest of their lives. I’ll be waiting more than a lifetime to see that…

  • tjallen

    Your god allowed 50-60 million innocent deaths?

  • suz

    ….so forcing people to risk their health and perhaps their life (as 100% of all pregnancies come with inherent risk to the pregnant person) by remaining pregnant and giving birth against their will is NOTHING like slavery?

    Not allowing a pregnant person to have autonomy over their own body/health/safety/life/future, regardless of why or how they got pregnant or why they want or need an abortion, is NOTHING like slavery?

    Yeah. That’ll fly.

  • Don

    So as president, where will he’s be coming up with the necessary billions of dollars for the federal-funded orphanages for all of these unwanted babies? I guess he’ll also need to establish a new executive-branch agency to run those and the new federal adoption bureaus. And there will have to be secondary education funds set aside for all of the children that don’t get adopted and end up being wards of the state. Low-tax, small-government Republican party my ass.

  • A pilot

    He’s a sexist pig. People think all women who choose abortion are whores who are selfish. Each woman has a story of her own, and it’s not one’s place to judge what she has gone/is going through…

    This “man” is a hypocrite in addition. REAL slavery is forcing a woman to have a kid she doesn’t want. Stop telling women how not to get pregnant (and how not to get raped!) and start telling boys to be more responsible. Wear a damn condom! Stop screwing everything that breathes (have some respect, guys), and learn what no means (and btw, and I can’t even believe I have to say this, if you don’t hear the word yes, it’s a NO)

  • Diane

    So, which slave owners received the bare minimum in sex education and contraception, were called whores for having sex, paid 80% in wages compared to the rest of the nation and risked their own health to carry these slaves, allowing them to grow inside their own bodies?

    Totally legit comparison.

  • Mr you

    This debate reminds me of a meme I saw the other day…

    It depicted the outrage women (and liberals) have towards deadbeat fathers who don’t pay for child support. And then showed how the same people applaud women for murdering their unborn children because they’re inconvenient to their life goals.

    Hypocrite much?

  • Larry

    So because they had dirty unmarried sex, you think you have a right to step in and tell women what to do with their bodies? Under whose authority? So women lose all rights to make decisions because you don’t like what they did. The anti-abortion POV is pure narcissistic nonsense.

    There are consequences for one’s choices. But its not your choice or consequences. You have no part of the process. Its not in your body, your opinion on such things is irrelevant.

    You don’t like women having abortion? Then don’t have one. Until you can take custody of a fetus, it is only the mother’s will which matters here. Her body, her rules.

  • Larry

    But that is not a denial of the truth of said comment. Just being thin skinned about its application. 🙂

  • George Nixon Shuler

    That’s a good point and it’s certainly a sign that the U.S. is doing pretty good despite all the whiners and nay-sayers barking otherwise. Of course, abortion rates are always in the same range of fluctuation in mirror-image to the economy with few exceptions like communist Romania under the rule of Ceaucesceau dynasty, which strictly prohibited abortion and led to most being performed in secret, and that data as to the rate is only recovered by self-reports after the fact. The use of the cruel and sneering term “abortion on demand,” however, is most unfortunate. Women make no “demand” because they have a constitutional right to the freedom of what they do with their own bodies and anything else is tyranny. they do not need to supplicate themselves before some archons to ask permission; it is inherent and self-evident and nothing big government extremists like Carson can do can stop it. Any evil deity which would dare to extract “judgment” over such deserves zero…

  • George Nixon Shuler

    Elledra, every phrase which escapes Ben Carson’s mouth is just plain weird in so many ways.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    A man who wants to abolish Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicare cannot be so characterized except in irony. Perhaps you forgot to use the “scare quotes”?

  • George Nixon Shuler

    That’s a good illustration of the ridiculousness of right-wing ideology. A person is someone who’s born. Abortion has nothing to do with a parent’s obligation to provide for a child. Apples and oranges.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    Which would certainly mean she is more well-versed in any discussion of morality than Carson or his voters. Thank you.

  • Ben in oakland

    If the government had to pay to support the babies that the government is forcing women who can’t afford them to have, that would be socialism.

    And socialism is evilllllllllllll.

  • Bernardo

    Now for the nitty-gritty of abortion:

    The failures of the widely used birth “control” methods i.e. the Pill (8.7% failure rate) and male condom (17.4%) have led to the large rate of abortions (one million/yr. ) and STDs (19 million cases/yr) in the USA. Men and women must either recognize their responsibilities by using the Pill or condoms properly and/or use other methods less prone to fail in order to reduce the high rates of abortion and STDs. Data used for the calculations are from the Guttmacher Institute.

    And this is what Ben Carson et al should be preaching. They should not be degrading women who have the gut-wrenching decision as to whether to have an abortion or not.

  • Bennett Willis

    Bernardo, your failure rates for BC are greatly higher than ANY I have ever seen. Maybe they are wrong?

  • Michelle

    Don….you nailed it!

  • Bernardo

    You might want to peruse guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_contr_use.html

  • Stephen

    Ben Carson is right. Just as a mother has a right to live, even the baby in the womb has a right to live. If only your mother aborted you, where would you have been?

  • Stephen

    For the fool, there is no valuing another person’s life and to such people, it is better for them not to exist in this world. If that girl aborts, since she has reached the age of decision making, she is accountable to whatever she is doing. If abortion is murder, she ought to face the penalty for it.

  • Stephen

    Understand what Ben is saying. He is not saying that pregnant women are slaves. When Jesus used parables, He had a hidden meaning in His sayings, so is Ben Carson. Why should people remain blind when there is some one to heal their blindness!!!!? No wonder you’re American. People living in a beautiful country, think like they are living in cow’s dung cage.

  • Stephen

    Don, this world is full of blood for unborn children. I wish God helps Ben to become a president, at least there will be survival for so many. He has a saintly thinking. I pity America, sometimes i think it is the beast spoken of in the book of revelations that wants to destroy the world because all the evil habits in the countries come as a result of acceptance of immorality in the U.S, and the U.S enforces it on the other poor countries because of the aid it gives. Americans, have pity on the Unborn!!!!!!!

  • Stephen

    You White people should remember that whether a child comes by rape, incest or right means, God has permitted the child to live. A new human being is created. Of course those men who rape and practice incest should be imprisoned, and if they are many, let the government build more prisons for them to be accommodated there. We’re tired of immorality in the world. It would be better to build many homes for such children so long as they have been given a chance to live.

  • Stephen

    May God bless Ben Carson. May the angels give him support, if people fail to elect him, let God Himself do so for the sake of those innocent children. I give him a distinction on that.

  • Stephen

    Larry, no body has a right to life. Just as we have no right to give ourselves life except God, so we have no right to terminate it. It is only God who has that right to end a life. Ok, you abort and support abortions, God will judge who did wrong and who did right.

  • Stephen

    People now think that they are God. Who gave you permission to terminate the fetus??? Ben is saying, that exception goes to mothers who are in danger of death, but many of you are not considering that. Is there any problem to raise a child who came out of rape or incest? If the mother is in good health, let her give birth to the kid, God will not fail to look after His creature.

  • Jacqueline

    Bingo! Or should the said 19 y/o female risk her life and capacity future pregnancies to getting an unsafe abortion?

  • Larry

    That is your opinion. One which has no bearing on the rights of a woman to make decisions concerning her body and what goes on inside it.

    What you fail to understand is no matter how much you set yourself as being somehow morally superior to a woman considering abortion, it does not give you permission to make decisions for her.

    “We’re tired of immorality in the world”

    We are not a party to the decisions to what goes on inside a woman’s body. You are entitled to your opinion on the subject. What you do not realize is that nobody has to give it color of law. At best a “helpful suggestion”, at worst an attack on the rights of born people in service of your sectarian beliefs.

  • Larry

    “Larry, no body has a right to life.”

    Our laws say otherwise, rightfully so. Born people are guaranteed many rights in our society. One of the most fundamental is a right to personal autonomy. Your body is your own, not the state’s.

    Your invocation of religious belief is completely irrelevant to the subject. You stated your belief. So what?

    Your mistake is the notion that all people are compelled to take it seriously. Religious freedom means I never have to care what you think God says nor be forced to do so.

    You are so arrogant and narcissistic in your belief that you think that others must follow your direction at your say so and invocation of God. You have no concept of what it means to live in a free and open society. Neither does Mr. Carson.

    I can’t help it if your belief makes you take leave of your senses to ignore the obvious. A fetus is a woman’s body, her decisions are the only ones that matter here. Your concern for a fetus is subordinate to hers.

  • Jack

    Carson will never be president, but that’s not why. People don’t vote on the abortion issue; they rank other issues far higher in terms of prioritizing.

    Carson won’t be president because the more he talks on issues that require a deep knowledge, like foreign policy, the more he demonstrates his lack of knowledge.

  • Jack

    And ditto for Donald Trump, who knows less than Carson does on foreign policy, which is saying much. Carson’s a better human being, but neither of them is going to be president, and probably neither will end up with the nomination for president.

  • Jack

    A pro-lifer can certainly be elected president — witness Reagan and the two Bushes. That’s not a problem. Carson’s problem is Trump’s problem and Fiorina’s problem: As much as the GOP electorate seems to say it wants someone with zero political experience, in the end, it will choose one who has it.

    It had been Jeb’s for the taking, but he has run an awful campaign and Trump, in his bizarro way, has exposed Jeb’s character flaws and his sense of entitlement.

  • Jack

    He is decent, honest, and moral, but he, like Trump and Fiorina, is not a president. I wish he were, but he’s not.

  • Jack

    Stephen, they know perfectly well that Carson’s not saying that pregnant women are slaves. You’re giving them undue credit for the intellectual honesty they don’t have.

  • Jack

    Don, if the issue were birth control, your argument would be a pretty good one. But it’s not about birth control; it’s about abortion. The difference is blindingly obvious: In the case of birth control, we’re talking about a life that isn’t there; in the case of abortion, we’re talking about a life that is decidedly there already.

  • Jack

    A pilot, if you’re so angry at irresponsible “boys” who don’t use birth control and get women pregnant, why are you letting these same “boys” off the hook by your support for abortion on demand? Based on your own logic, such that it is, abortion is their dream come true

  • Jack

    Stephen, I like Ben Carson’s principled stances on many issues, but that doesn’t mean he should be president. Being principled is a necessary but insufficient condition for one to be a good president.

  • Jack

    Stephen, I agree with you, but your argument doesn’t answer the obvious question that an atheist or agnostic would ask, which is the following:

    “I don’t even believe in God so how is your argument relevant to me?”

    The simpler argument is that if we grant that taking human life a second after birth is wrong, we must grant that taking that same life a second before birth is equally wrong. Or to put it the other way, life doesn’t suddenly begin at birth. That’s magical, medieval thinking that defies science as well as morality and ethics.

  • Jack

    Larry, if it’s wrong to take a life a second after birth, it’s wrong to take that same life a second before birth.

    To argue otherwise is to exchange mature, adult reasoning for magical, medieval thinking. You might as well say the moon is made of green cheese or that storks deliver babies.

  • Jack

    Ben, that’s a decent argument for birth control, but it doesn’t work with abortion since human life does not magically begin at birth.

  • Shawnie5

    I’ve had this conversation with rad fems before. All of them whining that nobody “holds men accountable” for their irresponsible sexual behavior and procreation. As best I can gather, what they seem to be demanding is some kind of widespread sexual shaming for men of this sort. The problem is, I have never seen a man who cared very much about what society at large thinks of his sexual behavior. For all practical purposes, there is only one person whose opinion about his sexual behavior a man cares about and that is the woman from whom he seeks sex.

    As a young woman I “held men accountable” by not furnishing sex or children to unsuitable men of nonspecific intentions. It worked quite well for me.

  • TTP

    Abortion/ homosexuals get so much of the focus but Ben Carson should also
    preach on being mean/sharp tongues. Bible says if you have a sharp tongue
    your religion is worthless yet many in church gossip,get drunk,gamble and/or
    sleep around/have premarital sex and can’t seem to bridle their sharp tongue.

  • Jack

    Well, “Jack,” speaking of “decency, honest [sic] and morality,” you seem to be having none of it, as evidenced by your stealing other people’s names and pretending to be them, as well as your deliberate misrepresentation of Carson’s views on the Constitution.

    To accuse Carson of wanting a “fundamentalist theocracy” suggests that you are a drooling anti-religious bigot who wants to discriminate against religious expression as opposed to non-religious expression in the public square, thus violating the free exercise clause of the First Amendment.

  • Jack

    Good for you, Shawnie….and it must be added that the original feminism was against abortion for precisely the reason I gave above: It didn’t want to let irresponsible men off the hook.

  • Jack

    TTP, you have a point, but the difference is that abortion is a public policy issue whereas “mean/sharp tongues” isn’t. Thus Carson couldn’t avoid the abortion issue even if he wanted to — it’s a legitimate policy question plus the media is totally obsessed with it.

  • Jack

    The question, Ben, isn’t whether people have or had the legal right to own slaves or kill unborn babies all the way up to birth. The question is whether there should be a right to such things.

    Carson’s point is that the Dredd Scott decision deeming slaves property resembles the Roe ruling which said essentially the same about unborn children.

  • TTP

    Jack-Good point but the point I was making is that these other sins need to
    be confronted. This webstie is a great example of my point with people on
    here being mean/ stealing people names to slander/make others look bad
    so I hope some of these other sins get confronted. Thank for the feedback.

  • Jack

    I have a question for you, Max:

    By what logic or scientific evidence does a baby suddenly become one at birth, but not a second before?

  • Shawnie5

    Exactly so…and even now, the pro-life movement is mostly driven by women. Women are more likely to identify as pro-life than men, and even those men who do identify as pro-life really don’t care much about the issue.

    Of course, pro-abortion fanatics are no less vitriolic to pro-life women than to pro-life men. They call us “gender traitors” or “sister punishers” or “collaborators in our own oppression” or other such foolishness.

  • Mosey

    Not scientific evidence, but I thought you might find it interesting that in Judaism, a human doesn’t become a human until the top of their head is showing during childbirth. It’s odd to me that we’re having this whole nation-wide discussion based solely on either Christian ideas of life or sorta semi-secular (?) ideas of life. Thoughts?

  • @Jack,

    How dare you demand a perfect answer? Life is hard enough.
    The decision about when a cluster of cells becomes a baby is none of my business – it is the business of the woman who must decide to use her own body to incubate that cluster.

    Every time you wash your hands you kill billions of possible people (cell clusters) who could have been cloned, fertilized and incubated! You are destoying potential people!
    Why should the moment of fertilization or the first two or three weeks afterward – be the starting point of a baby? It has no heartbeat and no brain! Just like the cluster of cells you wash away every time you wash your hands!

    Should we accuse you of murdering billions of people just because you washed your hands?

  • Jack,

    “anti-religious bigot”

    There is no such thing.

  • Shawnie,

    1. The point of making Abortion illegal is to obliterate this option from women in poverty. Rich people always arrange abortions and always have.

    2. If Abortion were illegal we would return to overpopulation in poverty-stricken areas under-financed social programs by a Right Wing dominance which would deny them further rights to education and economic investment.

    3. If Abortion were illegal as if it were murder
    women could be imprisoned for murder beginning at the age of 18 and be subject to Capital Punishment.

    You clearly don’t value life at all.

  • Jack

    Mosey, if you’re attempting to say that classical Judaism supports abortion on demand, ie all the way to birth, perhaps you’d like to tell that to the Orthodox Union, the premier Orthodox Jewish organization in the United States. The OU would certainly beg to differ.

  • Jack

    Max, I asked you a simple enough question:

    By what logic or scientific evidence does a baby suddenly become one at birth, but not a second before?

    Stop being a weasel and answer it.

  • Jack

    There is, Max….Just look in the mirror.

  • Jack

    I’m sure Shawnie will have an even better answer for you, Max, but I’ll address your point in the mean time:

    1. Rubbish. If you value life a second after birth, there is no logical, ethical, or scientific reason not to value it a second before birth. If you’re not for infanticide, there’s no reason to be for abortion on demand.
    2. “Overpopulation?” Do you still buy into centuries-old, demonstrably false, Malthusian mythology that counts each person as a mouth to feed but not a feeder of mouths? How many times, and in how many places, does this have to be refuted for you to relinquish belief in such foolishness? Read Ben Wattenberg’s “The Birth Dearth.”

    3. Name me one woman in the history of the United States who was executed by any government for having an abortion. You have no idea how ridiculous you sound.

    No Max, it is you who clearly don’t value life at all.

  • larry

    There is no such sect or group as “classical Judaism’. The Jewish view of abortion varies by sect. All of them approve of abortion out of medical necessity and in cases of rape. Some will approve in cases of adultery. Some “on demand”. It doesn’t fall neatly into the modern views of the topic. Of course also the Orthodox sect is not the sum total of Judaism either.

    As usual, you like to ignore the fact that prior to “viability” a fetus cannot live without its mother’s will to keep it alive. Which mean prior to that point, your opinion on its existence is immaterial to the subject.

  • You have gotten the answer before, you just constantly ignore it (and usually try to make the response disappear).

    Until it can survive outside of its mother, scientific evidence clearly points to the fact that the mother is the sole thing keeping it alive. Therefore it from a legal POV, a fetus, something which cannot survive outside the womb must always be subordinate to its mother. To “protect” a fetus means attacking the mother.. Since you cannot take possession of a fetus, you must defer to the woman’s right to her own personal autonomy.

    But because you deem her some kind of dirty s1ut, she must defer to your ultra-moral authority for her personal decisions. At least that is the basis or your POV.

  • @Jack,

    “bigot”

    If it is not bigoted to preach about Jesus – which you do – it cannot be bigoted to preach against Jesus.

    To ridicule “All Christians” would be bigoted.
    But to ridicule Christ is certainly not bigoted. Just as it is not bigoted to ridicule the Loch Ness Monster.

    Until you have evidence for a claim you have no right to say it is true. Crying bigotry is a bully’s trick.

  • @Jack,

    “Name me one woman…executed by any government for having an abortion.”

    Religion already executes innocent people every day. Making Abortion illegal would force the government to exact punishment for breaking the law.

    Don’t wash your hands, Jack. It is murder.

  • Larry

    How Some of the World’s Most Restrictive Abortion Laws Turn Women Into Criminals

    http://blog.amnestyusa.org/women/how-some-of-the-worlds-most-restrictive-abortion-laws-turn-women-into-criminals/

  • Jack

    Max, you’re a hate monger and a bigot….own up to it and either double down on it or disown it and change. But don’t deny what is blindingly obvious.

    You happen to be an anti-religious bigot, but if you grew up in the old south, you’d be a different kind of bigot — a white-sheet-donning one. You’d be a walking sandwich board against black people.

  • Jack

    And BTW, Max, I didn’t forget your anti-Jewish diatribes against the ancient founders of Judaism. You’re no better than the neo-Nazis who rail against the Talmud on their hate sites, wrenching words and verses out of context to stir up hatred against adherents of Judaism.

    What they do to the Talmud, you’ve done to the Hebrew Bible….and I suspect you’ve visited such hate sites because of all the verses in the New Testament to have chosen, you have chosen in prior posts the one that is a hit with white supremacist hate sites….and like those sites, you chose exactly the translation that they did — precisely the one that’s anti-Semitic and a vicious distortion of the actual meaning of the text.

  • Shawnie5

    He may be trying to, but that’s not what the idea he’s referring to is about. The situation he’s referencing is where the mother’s life is in danger during birth. Once crowning occurs, the child’s life may not be sacrificed even to save the mother. A very specific instance.

    We know a good deal about the ancient Jewish view of abortion from the writings of Josephus and Philo, who both described it quite frankly in terms of the killing of a child and “diminishing humankind,” Philo specifically attacked the pagan view, which is back in vogue today, that an unborn child is not a person. Of course, the pagans were not too cowardly to take it to the logical next step — they did not consider a newborn a person, either, unless officially accepted into a family.

  • Shawnie5

    “Return to overpopulation?” When in our nation’s history did we have an “overpopulation” problem?

    The most massive population explosion in our history has occurred in just the last generation, with abortion mills going gangbusters the entire time.

  • Shawnie5

    “Rich people always arrange abortions and always have.”

    Rich people find ways around all kinds of laws — particularly tax laws. That doesn’t mean that they are all “aimed at the poor” and should be done away with.

  • Bernardo

    But abortion is an important issue to a large number of voters especially women voters. One example:

    http://www.people-press.org/2012/08/22/the-complicated-politics-of-abortion/

  • Bernardo
  • Bernardo

    An the tragedies of one million abortions/yr.and 19 million cases of STDs/yr. could in general be avoided if men and women would practice safe and responsible sex.

    Again, some comparisons from the Guttmacher Institute:

    Method……………..Typical
    Pill (combined)……… 8.7 (resulting in ~one millon unplanned pregnancies, calculations based on the data from Guttmacher, http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_contr_use.html
    Tubal sterilization ……0.7
    Male condom ……….17.4 (resulting in ~one million unplanned pregnancies calculations as noted above…
    Continued from above:
    Vasectomy…………… 0.2
    Implant…………………1.0
    IUD (Copper-T)……….1.0
    (Masturbation mono or dual)………. 0 https://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3615710.html
    (Abstinence) ……………….0
    https://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/5/gr060504.html
    No protection……………85%

    And from the CDC, 19 million cases of STDs/yr.cost $16 billion/yr and basically preventable by using a 50 cent condom properly.

  • Bernardo

    Scroll up and peruse the Guttmacher and CDC statistics.

  • @Jack,

    Bigotry disgusts me. You have never seen an Anti-Jewish diatribe from me. I am not a hate monger.

    To hate smoking is NOT TO HATE the smoker!
    But I have only sympathy for believers. I was a believer for 5 decades!

    Religion is the hate monger – it hates human life and begs for death. I look back in anger that I was hoodwinked by religion to teach this mind cancer to my own children. I am so grateful they ultimately rejected it as I did:

    “Die for me” – Jesus (Matthew 16:24)

  • @Shawnie:

    “That doesn’t mean that they are all “aimed at the poor”

    Roe Vs. Wade was about ECONOMIC disparity – NOT Abortion!
    Read a book other than the bible once in a while. You might learn something.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    That’s called “begging the question.” You wouldn’t have become you if your father had gone out for a smoke before impregnating your mother because his sperm cells would have shifted position and another one would have impregnated her, or perhaps none of them.

    One may take the position that abortion is morally and ethically wrong. Criminalizing it however is worse and not motivated by a sincere desire to preserve “life” whatever that is.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    Again the question is begged. At what point is a fetus determined to be “an unborn child”? In just about every pregnancy fetal development begins before knowledge of a pregnancy is confirmed.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    Precisely why it is not by any reasonable definition, “murder.” Thank you.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    While your comment is factually correct, remember abortion did not magically begin with Roe, but occurred at exactly the same rate as before it.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    If one feels abortion is a moral wrong, criminalizing it is not the way to keep it from happening because it happens at the same rate whether it’s legal or illegal.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    In your opinion. But I am willing to outlaw abortion after the first trimester with reasonable health exceptions in exchange for universal realistic sex education, free birth control, and passage of the Equality Act. But that will never happen because the argument isn’t about whether or not a fetus is a bay-bee; it’s about sex, sex, and only sex.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    This is the old surrender your freedom and accept your weaknesses argument. Women enjoy sex too, unless you’re not doing it right.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    If the past is any guide the last assertion is quite laughable indeed. As Thomas Hobbes wrote over 500 years ago, the bulk of peoples’ lives are “nasty, brutish, and short.” I don’t see that changing into a magical land of butterflies and unicorns anytime soon.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    Actually it is you making the assertion of magical thinking.

  • George Nixon Shuler

    What about the sperm? They’re alive too right? so is the next step you’ll advocate to outlaw masturbation?

  • Larry

    http://www.chaunceydevega.com/2015/10/ben-carson-and-pro-life-movement-have.html#more

    The anti-abortion/forced birth crowd has more in common with slave owners than abolitionists:

    “..American slavery capitalism was premised on continual expansion. The growth of the Southern economy was tied directly to the productivity of the capitalized womb, a term we use to refer to the way enslaved women’s bodies functioned as the essential production engine of the slave-breeding economy, which in turn fueled a global economy that processed slave-grown cotton into mass-produced cloth.

    That individual plantation owners practiced slave-breeding through the rape of enslaved women is attested to repeatedly in the testimony of the formerly enslaved and elsewhere. …Beyond the purely venal incentive of unrestrained sexual activity, the existence of a market in young people created a financial incentive for slaveowners to intrude into the reproductive lives of enslaved women”

  • Shawnie5

    Oh, I enjoy it too — I just never had any interest in it apart from commitment, and of course you can not reasonably expect commitment from the kind of man who is responsible for the lion’s share of nonmarital procreation.

    All I’m saying is that in practice you’ll never truly “hold men accountable” for their sexual activities by mere shaming. They genuinely don’t care, unless there is a cost involved.

  • @Shawnie:

    “We have examples in the Bible of….”

    “Zombies walked from their graves and visited with the people in Jerusalem…” – (Matthew 27:52)

    Yeah. Zombies.
    The Bible is the font of perfect wisdom.
    Why would anyone doubt it?

  • Larry

    Shawnie, your conjecture (based on scant and unreliable evidence) as to what ancient Judeans believed has nothing to do with the Jewish faith as it stands in the here and now.

    Both you and Jack are just taking the conversation down a useless blind alley to describe an irrelevant position. The 1st Century CE was not the be all and end all of all critical or philosophical thought. This is the same society which considered all women to be the chattel of the most responsible male of a given family.

  • Shawnie5

    I was not stating any “conjecture” but was referencing some very specific passages on this subject from the writings of Josephus and Philo, both of them legally trained in the same tradition as Paul. Obviously you have read neither — why then would you make yourself look foolish by calling either of them “scant” or “unreliable?”

    I didn’t even bring this up…it was Mosey who offered a factoid because he thought it would be “interesting.” Except that the factoid happened to be erroneous. Why then was your objection not directed to him instead?

  • Shawnie5

    The Abramowicz case in NY (which was never decided) argued the economic disparity angle, but Roe vs. Wade was a privacy decision. Economic disparity was never even mentioned by the Court.

  • Shawnie:
    How about this?…..Think – if you can – about how the sexual activities of other people are so completely and utterly not any of your business! Ya think ya can do that?

  • Allison

    I’m assuming a very similar place to where you would be had your mother and father used contraception, or decided not to have sex the day you were conceived.

  • Allison

    Sure, let’s prohibit abortion. Much of the time those who decide to have abortions have very little capability (be it financial, intelligence, maturity) to raise a child. That child’s future may very well consist of neglect and psychological problems due to his/her parents or foster care. The chances of them ending up in a warm and loving home vs. a home full of neglect is a toss up. I’d prefer him/her to not have to be a game of chance.