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United Methodist association forms to push for tough line on gays

The consecreation service of the United Methodist Bishop Karen Oliveto
Photo from the consecreation service of the United Methodist Bishop Karen Oliveto held on July 16, 2016, at Paradise Valley United Methodist Church in Scottsdale, Ariz. Photo courtesy of Patrick Scriven, United Methodist Church PNW Conference
The consecreation service of the United Methodist Bishop Karen Oliveto

Photo from the consecration service of  United Methodist Bishop Karen Oliveto held on July 16, 2016, at Paradise Valley United Methodist Church in Scottsdale, Ariz. Photo courtesy of Patrick Scriven, United Methodist Church PNW Conference

(RNS) Undoing the election of the first openly lesbian bishop in the United Methodist Church will be a primary goal when 1,500 Methodist evangelicals gather this week in Chicago to found a new renewal group, according to organizers.

At the inaugural meeting of the Wesleyan Covenant Association on Friday (Oct. 7), charter members will outline their expectations for a soon-to-be-appointed denominational commission to discuss the conflict over sexuality.

The United Methodist Church is hoping to prevent a schism in the wake of Bishop Karen Oliveto’s July election to lead the denomination’s Western Jurisdiction, which covers 11 states from Arizona to Alaska.

In Chicago, the WCA plans to send a pre-emptive message about what Methodist evangelicals in the United States, Africa and Asia will need to see in any proposal from the commission.

Rev. Jeff Greenway. Photo courtesy of Reynoldsburg United Methodist Church

The Rev. Jeff Greenway. Photo courtesy of Reynoldsburg United Methodist Church

“A plan that requires traditionalists to compromise their principles and their understandings of Scripture, or that allows for varieties of beliefs and practices within the global communion of the church, isn’t acceptable to most evangelicals,” said Jeff Greenway, lead pastor of Reynoldsburg United Methodist Church in Ohio and a member of the WCA’s board of directors.


READ: United Methodist groups divided after election of first LGBT bishop


Activists want the commission to reaffirm the church’s ban on ordained leadership by “self-avowed practicing homosexuals.” Formal statements are already in the works.

“There are statements we’re making in regard to the acts of covenant-breaking that have accelerated the frequency and seriousness of the situation we’re in,” Greenway said. Such acts include “not only the election of Bishop Oliveto, but also the approval of four openly gay clergy in the New York Annual Conference” and similar steps taken elsewhere, he said.

The WCA will insist “that the commission proposes a plan that calls for accountability and integrity to our covenant and restores the good order of the church’s polity,” Greenway said.

Oliveto’s election has touched off a crisis in the 12.4 million-member United Methodist Church worldwide, where defiant clergy are refusing to abide by what they regard as unjust prohibitions.

More than 140 LGBT clergy came out in May, according to the Reconciling Ministries Network, a Methodist advocacy group. In addition, 820 Methodist clergy have pledged to officiate same-sex weddings even though church rules prohibit them.

Last May, the General Conference of the UMC declined to vote on proposals to revamp policies, deferring instead to the new commission to find a solution that can pass muster with progressives and conservatives alike. Among the possibilities: repeal policies regarding homosexuality, restructure the church to allow for varying practices or separate into different denominations.

On Wednesday, the Executive Committee of the UMC’s Council of Bishops said it had invited 29 individuals (eight bishops, 13 clergy and eight laity) to join the commission. Invitees were asked to respond within a couple of days. The commission is expected to begin its work later this fall.

The WCA intends to remain in the United Methodist Church, according to Greenway.

“It’s never been our intent to form the Wesleyan Covenant Association in order to form a new denomination,” he said.

(G. Jeffrey MacDonald is a correspondent based in Boston)

About the author

G. Jeffrey MacDonald

G. Jeffrey MacDonald is an award-winning reporter and an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ.

946 Comments

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  • If they are trying to prevent a schism, taking “a tough line on gays” is what brought them to that point to begin with…

    And so might be considered counter productive.

  • If they want to be Christian, they need to follow Christ’s teaching. He said that homosexuality is a sin. Christ has to be more important than the whims of man.

  • No need to worry, folks. Mathematics will give us the correct solution to all these church problems. Here, let’s add it up:

    140 newly self-avowed LGBT clergy
    + 820 clergy who promise to do LGBT weddings
    + 1 newly elected lesbian bishop Oliveto
    + 4 newly approved New York gay clergy
    + 1 the entire New York Conference
    + 1 Liberal Bishop Grant Hagiya

    = 967 hot juicy EXCOMMUNICATIONS, first thing next Sunday morning!

    (See? Problem solved. Math wins again!!)

  • Christ Reason and evidence have to be more important than the whims of man Christ.”

    The whims of Christ and the authors of the Bible should not matter to people capable of rational thinking.

  • What also may help, floydlee, is 967censures. Jesus is the God of second chances, eh, then excommunicate them if they don’t agree.

  • But of course, Sandi!
    I’m actually not into “Instant Vaporizations” when it comes to people. (Everyone needs a little grace, everyone needs a few do-overs, these days.)
    The mathematical exercise above, and the use of the “E-word,” is merely designed to get our discussion partners to think about things.

    Unfortunately Sandi, there is a more serious side to this story, involving the “E-word.”
    Within the United Methodist Church, the gay activists and their liberal allies, are NOW so strong and dominant that if these “WCA conservatives” are telling the truth about what they hope to accomplish, they will have to **demonstrate** that they are willing to fight an all-out war for it, just like King David’s servants.

    If the WCA conservatives don’t want the pro-gay forces to capture and dominate the entire UMC in a year or two, the conservatives will have to prove that they’re ready to pull ALL the grenade pins, (even if it blows up the entire UMC), and openly fight back with EXCOMMUNICATION-LEVEL force and determination. The gay controversy has become just that serious, just that terrible, within the United Methodist Church.

  • Time for the true church to split from those who insist on being disobedient to the Scriptures. By their fruits you will know them.

  • From another site, I have friends in the UMC and I’ve prayed that they can get through this successfully. It is so disheartening to watch a church failing and if the “E” word is necessary, then they should do that. I agree with you.
    Very sad to see the destruction of an assembly! (edit)
    Just on a thought here. We had a RCC gentleman in politics here censured by his diocese for his participation in encouraging homosexuality. It was really quite comforting to see and I wonder if the Methodists realize how good it would be for their congregants.

  • Tell that to the billions who take the teachings of Christ seriously and to the many who can think far more rationally than you.

  • You’re just salivating at the prospect, aren’t you? Your hysteria on the subject of gay people is noted and affirmed.

    Excommunication level force? MAybe they can just get up on their hind legs, point their hooves, and scream “anathema!”

    Or the antigays can just do the schism without the apocalyptic visions, and the liberals can admit that they will never find common ground, and with great sorrow, blahblahblah, go their own way. The two sides agree that each church decides which way they want to go, based upon majority rule at the church, no one sues anyone over property and buildings. and those on the losing side will migrate to the church of like minded people.

    Nah. That would be way too Christian of them. and you’d lose your entertainment, as the ironically and mendaciously named Forces of Good attack the Great Gay God hoo-hah you’re always going on about.

    It’s a classic game of “let’s you and him fight”, carried out on a scale grand enough to please even you. I would congratulate ou on it, except that it isn’t actually about you.

  • Beware of people who take great delight in the strife of other people. It’s the less savory sister of schadenfreude.

  • Sorry Ben, but at this point YOUR side has made it clear that they are angry and at war, and they are NOT going to accept anything other than a flat-out surrender by everybody else in the United Methodist Church.

    YOUR side, the gay side, is not even in the mood to “do a schism” in an amiable way and everybody just take their little marbles home. That’s all changed now. YOUR side now carries a metaphorical Ka-Bar knife, and they are using it.

    So now, the people on YOUR side have staked their claim: If anybody has to pack up and leave the UMC denomination in any kind of “schism”, it’s gonna be the conservative UMC Christians who oppose gay UMC weddings and practicing homosexual UMC clergy. Your gay activists and pro-gay liberals do NOT want any compromise at all — they only want capitulation. Total surrender. They’re not waiting on any Mealy-Mouth Bishop’s-Commission, either.

    So there you go, Ben. The Methodist Christians must bow down to the Gay Goliath. Or else Methodist Christians must evolve a backbone and FIGHT BACK !!

  • Nope. No, He did not. Jesus said exactly nothing about homosexuality. He did, however, say quite a bit about divorce, money, and hospitality.

  • Um. No. Actually, if you’ve been reading along in your Bible, you’ll find that Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. He had plenty to say to judgmental, hard-hearted people about learning to get along with people they consider enemies, but not a word about homosexuals.

  • Jesus certainly did speak against homosexuality in Mark 7:21 where He speaks about sexual immorality which includes homosexuality.

  • If you aren’t a United Methodist, maybe you should keep your eagerness for censuring someone to yourself. Having “a friend in the UMC” doesn’t count.

  • They exclude themselves by their acceptance of sin. Homosexuality is condemned throughout Scripture. No Christian is to engage in it.

  • Without reference to the merits (as viewed by either side), it would appear inevitable that the UMC in America is headed for a schism.

  • A true church knows love and learns to grow beyond bigotry and partisan hate covered by the fig leaf of fundamentalism. We’ve been here before.

  • No, you cited a scripture verse that says nothing at all about homosexuality. It does refer to sexual immorality – which in your head you have conflated with homosexuality. And while that may be what’s in your head? It isn’t “in scripture”.

  • And yet there is story after story about the decline of mainline church membership and the growing number of “nones”. Let it no longer be a mystery as to the cause. The family street fight in the name of Christ should truly be an embarrassment to you all.

  • I wonder how many anti-homosexual Methodists support adulterers? (Ya’ know, guys and gals on their second marriages?)

  • I have no doubt that there are “many who can think far more rationally than me,” but few of them are likely to be among “the billions who take the teachings of Christ seriously.” Some of those billions are probably capable of thinking rationally, but are unwilling due to intense indoctrination. And others are not only capable, and actually do so privately, but fear and/or ambition causes them to ‘go along to get along.’ And then there are others who are capable of thinking rationally, but cleverly channel it into enhancing their power, influence, and/or wealth . . . like televangelists, for example.

  • I would suggest: “Time for the true church [truly decent church people] to split from those who insist on being disobedient to the Scriptures [writings of ancient people who had almost nothing beyond ignorance to work with].”

  • I fail to see how it is a bad thing. But it does point to active efforts by reactionary evangelicals to undermine and break up traditionally liberal or moderate mainstream sects.

  • If they’re “hoping to prevent a schism” by reversing the decision of her having been duly elected, they’re delusional. And hurtful.

  • Is this “true church” like the “true Scotsman” ‘argument’???

    Scripture is silent on loving, committed, same-sex relationships culminating in marriage. All Scripture addresses is homosexual rape, homosexual lust and homosexual temple prostitution.

    The “fruit” of this movement will be a schism and a duly elected bishop being ousted because of some folks’ homophobia.

  • You can have loving same sex relationships without sex.
    There is no such thing as homosexual “marriage” because you need a husband and wife. Only a many can be a husband and a woman a wife.

  • There wasn’t a modicum of “grace” in your OP. In fact, it contravenes the 2nd paragraph of your reply utterly.

    Hyperbolic ‘outrage’ (as in your OP) is not the way to “get our discussion partners to think about things”. There wasn’t much ‘thinking’ that went into it.

  • Sexual immorality includes homosexuality, incest and bestiality. It includes all forms of sex outside of a marriage between a man and a woman.

  • You’d be “angry” too if YOU were the target of the very discrimination you promulgate.

  • One cannot “encourag[e] homosexuality”.

    Either one is or one is not attracted to others of the same sex. And NOTHING on God’s green earth can change that.

    If you disagree, then tell us what factors would ‘encourage’ YOU to be attracted to people to whom you are NOT naturally attracted? A free toaster oven, perhaps?

    It’s delusional comments like this that diminish, demean and debase God’s LGBTQ children.

  • Over the course of the centuries, science has told us things that we thought were scriptural absolutes were not necessarily true: the Earth being the center of the universe; women being subservient to men, being incapable of independent thinking, with no say in anything pertaining to faith; and the inferiority of people of color justifying segregation and discrimination among many others. As God has given us understanding, our views and therefore our theology has changed. Science has now shown us that homosexuality is not chosen, but probably has physiological and organic causes. That, an the testimony of people who say they’ve known they were gay since they were a child, since they entered puberty, before they really knew what sexuality was. How, therefore, can we call it a choice? We condemn people for simply identifying as gay, whether they’ve had relations or not. How is that even remotely Christian?

    Reading the Holy Scriptures as a literal, modern document has caused more problems over the years than anything else in history. But taking it’s words in context, knowing for whom each passage was written and the societal and cultural contexts it was written in can often lead to an entirely different interpretation. There are faithful, prayerful Biblical scholars who offer up plausible if not convincing arguments about differing interpretations of the so-called “clobber passages”. Are we so arrogant in our certainty that we can’t allow that they might be correct? And, if individual faith and dedicated study weren’t important, leaning on the promptings of the Holy Spirit for guidance and understanding essential to our daily interaction with Christ, isn’t our steadfast adherence to the understandings of the past being unfaithful to our ever evolving Christian walk? Sometimes, we get so comfortable where we are we forget we haven’t reached our destination yet.

    Christ welcomed all, saints and sinners alike, to walk with Him while he dwelt among us. There are so many doctrines we disagree on, many different interpretations (translations) of Holy Scripture we rely on, shouldn’t we welcome all who faithfully seek Christ in their own way. Because, no matter how much we might disagree, those who seek God through His Son in a steadfast manner are covered by the Blood of Christ even when they get it wrong.

  • Just because someone has some inclinations to do something doesn’t mean they should. Scripture is quite clear that all men are fallen. It is very clear that all sex outside of a marriage between a man and a woman is sinful. Scripture never affirms homosexuality or fornication. If a person is going to follow Christ then he must not allow sin to control him and is to put sin out of his life.

  • That’s just it: it is not clear. In depth study has indicated that its likely that the prohibition in Leviticus refers to sexual idolatry as was frequently practiced at the time. The key words in Paul’s letter to the Roman’s are “unnatural” (1:26) and “lusts” (1:27). Many scholars believe that Paul is referring to the widespread practice in the Roman Empire of heterosexual men of means and soldiers on campaign using young men and slaves to satisfy their sexual desires. For the homosexual, there is nothing unnatural or lustful about honest affection between people of the same gender, no more than the affection between husband and wife in a heterosexual relationship can be considered “lustful”. It’s a poor analogy, but it’s a little like the practice in the Midfle Ages of training everyone to write and fight right-handed, because left-handedness (being “corrie-fisted) was considered “unnatural”.

  • It is clear and has been for thousands of years that the Bible condemns all forms of sex outside of a marriage between a man and a woman. There is no provision, no affirmation, no encouragement for any kind of sex outside of a marriage between a man and a woman.

    It is wrong to lust after another person. Even in marriage.

    There is nothing in Paul’s writings that he is referring just to a “practice in the Roman Empire of heterosexual men of means and soldiers on campaign using young men and slaves to satisfy their sexual desires.” Rather, all homosexual activity is condemned.

  • Well, most Evangelicals, according to the polls, are going to vote for Trump, who is on his third marriage.

  • Homosexuals diminish, demean and debase themselves by rebelling against Jesus. They don’t need my help – and won’t get it.
    Christ made it very clear that homosexuality is a choice because they exchange that which is unnatural for that which is natural. Homosexuality is encouraged most places lately and children will be severely hurt by all of this trash. blessings

  • Thanks Keith, but they are yet of my family and they should be censured to restore them to following Jesus.

  • Do you know that Jesus is God, Katie? He said everything about homosexuality in the Bible. Homosexuality is a sin.

  • Another one! Do you know that Jesus is God and that He said everything in the Bible about homosexuality. He also said that He would forgive and cleanse us of our sin.

  • Makes me want to cry for them, Edward. How sad for that to happen to a family because some bad influence has gotten in.

  • They also know that Christ said to love Him, is to follow His commandments and He said that homosexuality is a sin.

  • If Christ wasn’t for the relationship, He won’t change his mind when they delude themselves that they are married. Ain’t gonna happen.

  • Paul’s Epistle to the Romans is just that, a letter specifically meant for the faithful in Rome. Since the Scriptures were not assembled into one volume until three centuries later, it’s rather inconceivable to extrapolate that he was writing with all future Christians in mind, so it’s also not out of the realm of possibility that he was addressing an issue specific to the Roman church and society.

    I would urge you, then, to take a few years and study church history. There is evidence that homosexuality was not always universally condemned, in some cases it was condoned and even celebrated. Also, modern concepts of Biblical inerrancy and infallibility have only been widely accepted for the past half century or so. My faith in Christ predates that. We understood that the Bible was inspired by God, through the promptings of the Holy Spirit, but was actually written and later translated, interpreted and collected by men – mortal, fallible men. I didn’t hear my first “anti-gay” sermon until the early 80’s. The fact that this latter-day theology has become so widely accepted is testament to our all too human desire to judge our fellow man. Our Lord covered that in His own words (Matthew 7:1).

  • Paul was chosen by Jesus to set up His church, Jim. Paul knew he was creating rules for the entire Christian church.
    If you check the 1300’s Wycliffe translation:

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

    9 Whether ye know not, that wicked men shall not wield the kingdom of God? Do not ye err; neither lechers, neither men that serve maumets [neither men serving to idols], neither adulterers, neither lechers against kind, neither they that do lechery with men,

    10 neither thieves, neither avaricious men [neither covetous men, or niggards], neither men full of drunkenness, neither cursers, neither raveners, shall wield the kingdom of God.

    11 And ye were sometime these things [And these things ye were sometime]; but ye be washed, but ye be hallowed, but ye be justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.”

    “lechery with men” is “homosexuality” today.

  • Christ was silent on the topic. I wish more of His (selective) followers would take the hint and do likewise.

  • Not at all. He spoke against the sin all over the Bible. I suggest you begin reading in Genesis 19.

  • What chapter and verse did Christ in the Gospels state that homosexuality is a Sin? Even Leviticus doesn’t mean that homosexuality is immoral, but rather that Anal (not oral) sex is a
    ritual purity infraction. Similarly, having sex when a woman is menstruating is a ritual purity infraction. (Leviticus 20:18). Jesus de emphasized ritual purity, for instance by declaring all foods clean in Mark 7.

  • In the Bible, marriage was more often than not between a man and as many women as he could afford to purchase, women at the time being, literally, objects that could be bought, sold and traded at whim, as in, “A pig and two goats for your daughter, sir?” Thus, it was in Biblical times nothing more than a financial transaction between 2 men.

  • He wasn’t IN the Old Testament.

    He spoke not one recorded word about same-sex relationships.

  • No, actually, He didn’t. There’s not one recorded word in Scripture that He spoke ABOUT same-sex relationships.

  • So you are trying to discuss Christianity and don’t know that Jesus is God in the flesh? He is the author of the Bible.

  • Leviticus teaches that the act of homosexual sex is a sin.

    1 Timothy 1: 9-11 “ …. understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers,a liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.”

  • You’re welcome to ‘believe’ that, Sandi. But the majority of people who actually voted for this bishop believe differently than you seem to.

    Those were NOT Christ’s words. They were Paul’s.

    There’s no “blessing” to be found in your vile cant, Sandi. I’ve been with my husband for over 31 years and NO children have been “hurt”. That’s pure and utter delusion on your part. It’s ‘false witness’.

  • No, actually, it isn’t. What IS “condemned” is homosexual lust, homosexual rape and homosexual temple prostitution – none of which is the topic here.

  • To paraphrase, just because heterosexuals have the ‘inclination’ to love their spouses doesn’t mean they should act on it.

    If it WERE “clear”, this debate would not be happening … world-wide.

  • And that is John Wycliffe’s translation and understanding. Other versions offer different translations and understandings. The King James Version uses the word “effeminate”. Even so, Wycliffe’s term “leechery” (lechery) is defined as “excessive sexual desire, lustfulness”. I would submit again there is nothing excessive or lustful about sincere affection between homosexuals. To equate John Wycliffe’s words – or Paul’s, for that matter – as condemning all homosexual emotion is going somewhere the words simply do not go. All excessive, lustful behavior, straight or gay, is abhorrent to God. That is certain. Anything more is what we read into it or have been taught.

  • Christ did not write Leviticus.

    The Leviticus Holiness Code is a guideline for priests of the Levite tribe. We are not (most of us) that.

    It also, btw, says that eating shrimp is an “:abomination”. And that we should put disobedient children and non-virgin brides to death, trght alongside ‘the gays’. So, if you’re not out there “surely” putting gay people to death, you’re just another run-of-the-mill selective fundamentalist.

  • Per YOUR beliefs.

    Why do you hate other people’s freedom of religious belief so very much that you would force them to abide by yours instead of theirs?

  • No it isn’t. Maybe you’re thinking of those nominal heterosexuals who go ‘on the down low’, but WE are talking about two people in loving, committed relationships culminating in marriage. Care to join the discussion?

  • You are the ‘judge’ of that. You’re not ‘qualified’. And, the One Who is told YOU not to.

  • Homosexuality IS a sin when it involves sexually taking advantage of a slave. For the word which means Anal sex literally is followed by man stealer in the very verse you quote. Obviously, some enslaved other men to sexually take advantage of them. Homosexuality is NOT a sin in and of itself.

  • Where does it say, when, “sexually taking advantage of a slave” anywhere? That is incorrect Daniel? It needs to say it for that to be true, and it does not.
    I showed you where homosexuality was classified as a sin. Leviticus also classifies it as such and declares it worthy of death. Christ died so the homosexual does not have to, should they accept His gift of salvation.

  • They are my family and they need to be corrected. Homosexuality is a sin. Christians do not endorse sin.

  • Homosexuality is a sin that Christ said is worthy of death. Then, Christ died for them, should they accept His offer of salvation.
    As far as scripture goes, you really need to read up on Paul and who he is.

  • The word following the word used for homosexual intercourse or Arsenokoitus is andrapodistais, which means man stealer. Andra means a male, so it doesn’t mean just enslaving any human. It was common in the Roman Empire for slaves to be sexually taken advantage of. This is something which can be inferred from the context.

  • No per God’s belief. Have you ever read a Bible?
    Isaiah 9:6 – New International Version
    For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    John 11 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

  • You are wrong again….
    Leviticus 18: 1The Lord said to Moses, 2“Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the Lord your God. 3You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the Lord your God. 5Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.

  • Yup it is Wycliffe’s translation and all other translations agree with it, so, I would say over a period of approximately 2000 years and trillions of translators, that they are correct. Just because the homosexuals don’t like the truth, doesn’t mean we need to lie to them.
    Wycliffe made it very clear it is lechery with men – homosexuality.

  • Truth, you hurt yourself and every child who witnesses your sin and thinks it is “acceptable”. Not only are you putting yourself into danger, you corrupt young minds, and the Lord is very certain about what he is going to do with those who harm children. Homosexuality is a sin. If renounced, Jesus will cleanse and heal you of that sin, as He will any other sin. He loves you and wants what is best for you.

  • No Daniel, you are incorrect. What scripture are you trying to cite? Homosexuality is a sin. Look to Romans 1 where it is termed unnatural, perversion….you’re on the wrong track, and if you got that from Matthew Vines, you have been sold a bill of good. He has been proven wrong countless times. (edit)
    Also, I looked your word up – Strongs teaches:a slave-dealer, kidnapper, man-stealer, i. e. as well one who unjustly reduces free men to slavery, as one who steals the slaves of others and sells them: 1 Timothy 1:10.
    “reduces free men to slavery” the slavery and bondage of the sin of homosexuality.

  • Why do you want to restrict God to just the Gospels? He spoke all over the Bible.
    Matthew 15:19 For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander.20 These are what defile you.

  • Romans 1 is stated in the context of idol worship. Heterosexual marriages are also strongly condemned when mixed with idol worship (1 Kings 16:31- Ahab’s idolatrous heterosexual marriage to Jezebel). Also read Numbers 25, where heterosexual activity was fiercely condemned when it was mixed with idol worship. 24,000 were killed. Also read Deuteronomy 13, where it commands us to kill our heterosexual spouse if they lead us into idolatry. The so called word used for “perversion” in Romans 1:26-27 is plane, which means error and being led astray. It really is referring back to the exchange from worshipping the Creator to worshipping the creature. I lived in Greece for two years and know New Testament Greek very well. I knew a lot of this before Matthew Vines was born. I am almost 56 now and Matthew is in his early 20’s. Also I don’t think that 1 Timothy is at all talking about “consensual” sex, since it was with slaves. The vast majority of Gay people would oppose such behavior.

  • Jesus will cleanse and heal you of your homosexuality?? You still believe that?? How many ex-gay reparative therapy people, who “prayed away the gay” for decades before finally admitting the truth that being gay is a part of them and is something that can’t be “cured” or “healed” do there have to be before you understand that statement is wrong. How do you tell a boy, just entering puberty, that his being attracted to other boys and not girls is a “choice” when he has no idea of what he’s choosing, of what sexuality really is?? (I use “boy” as an example, but it applies to young girls, too). How many of our children do we have to destroy before we understand it is not a “choice”, that it is their natural inclination? How many people are forced to fight with themselves for decades because they are told what they feel from the depths of their soul is “wrong” and “sinful”? How many suicides caused by a feeling they can’t be loved by God because of who they are is too many? The natural evidence is overwhelming, that homosexuality is from birth, and if from birth, from creation. Only complete legalists would say otherwise.

  • Yes it becomes idol worship because they exchange the truth of the living God for a lie they want to believe from an idol – eg – their idol tells them homosexuality is ok, when Christ said it is a sin.
    I think you are confusing yourself with your Greek. For 2000 years trillions of translators have translated homosexuality to be a sin and I’m sorry, you are not the one to change that. Homosexuality is a sin, my friend.
    This is what the Bible says about homosexuality:

    BIBLICAL SUMMARY OF HOMOSEXUALITY

    • A wicked act (Gen 19:7; Judges 19:23)

    • An abomination (Lev 18:22; Lev. 18:26; Lev. 18:27; Lev. 18:29; Lev. 18:30; Lev. 20:13)

    • Folly (Judges 19:23)

    • A vile act (Judges 19:24)

    • A vile affection (Rom 1:26)

    • An act against nature (Rom 1:26)

    • An abusive act (1 Cor 6:9)

    • A sin against one’s own body (1 Cor 6:18)

    • An act that defiles (Lev. 18:24; Lev. 18:25; Lev. 18:27; Lev. 18:28; Lev. 18:30; 1 Tim 1:9)

    • Those that practice it shall not inherit the Kingdom of God (I Cor 6:9-10; Jude 1:7; Jude 1:13; Rev. 21:8; Rev. 21:27)

    (many thanks to Adam in Christ for this excellent summary)

    blessings to you.

  • You can’t argue with this level of stupidity and ignorance. The Bible is merely a collection of stories written by highly superstitious men who at the time believed thunder was god moving his furniture around. These ignorant people then interject their own beliefs which are highly bigoted and discriminatory and then rationalize it, while pointing to one of these stories and says “yup says it right there” whether it does or not. And even more laughable is no one knows a single author, not one, of ANY of the stories of the Bible. In fact, many of the stories are “collections” of many narratives with 20+ sources handed down over generations. So anyone who believes in such nonsense, is so far removed from reality, that you cannot have a intelligent discussion with them. Stop trying my friend, its not worth your time.

  • You are taking all of these verses out of context. For instance Judges 19 states that homosexual rape is a vile act, but it ends up being a violent heterosexual rape where the female concubine is torn into pieces. Are you saying homosexual rape is vile, but violent heterosexual rape is fine and dandy?

  • That’s ridiculous. It was perfectly alright throughout the Old Testament for a man to have sex with any woman who was not betrothed or married to another man. Women were not punished for having sex, as long as they weren’t betrothed to a man. You can find this in Exodus 22 as well as Deuteronomy 22.

  • Paul’s letter are inspired-inerrant Scripture which have authority over all Christians and unbelievers.

    Show me one church council that affirms homosexuality in its documents.

    If you claim Christ then you are to renounce all sin. Engaging in homosexual sexual practices is sin and shows one is not of the Kingdom of God.

  • Ah, but you assume they are NOT following Jesus and that it is YOUR place to censure them. I’m afraid I will have to disagree on both counts.

  • I’m pretty sure what “comforted” you would be quite unpleasant to me, as well as to quite a few of those millions of people you have lumped into the category “the Methodists.” We aren’t all the same, you know, we UNITED Methodists.

  • Obviously you didn’t read Exodus 22:16-17, where there was no penalty for a woman who was seduced if she was not betrothed. Deuteronomy 22 only severely punishes a man if he rapes a woman who was betrothed. He has to take some responsibility for the non betrothed woman, but he is not put to death. A betrothed woman is punished if she was raped,
    but could have called out for help, but there is no punishment for her if she is not betrothed. Obviously it isn’t a fact that in every passage, the Bible proscribes any sex outside a one man, one woman marriage for both men and women.

  • So some are afraid of having a sinner in our leadership. They seem to have missed something somewhere.

  • I do not disagree but the exact same thing can be/should be/is being said about – and witnessed of – same-sex couples’ marriages.

    You are free to believe what you want about what you think of as “sin”, but many people of good faith believe differently than you do. They/we don’t view two people committing to one another in marriage as “sin”. You’re welcome to, as I said, but we need you to understand that your beliefs are not universally held.

    imo, other people’s marriages are not anyone else’s business.

  • Those that don’t think homosexual sex practices are wrong are not getting that from Scripture.

    No such thing as a homosexual “marriage” because it fails to have a necessary ingredient for a relationship to be a marriage and that is it lacks either a husband or wife. You need each of these roles to have a marriage and only a woman can be a wife and a man a husband to have a marriage.

  • You have issues, Sandi. And you seem downright obsessed with gay people because your username has become quite recognizable.

  • In relation to this particular issue, you seem a bit Pharisaical. Maybe you need to give God the opportunity to soften your hard heart and love and respect your LGBT neighbor. Kind of like Jesus loved and respected the Samaritans, whom most of Judaism looked down upon for misguided religious reasons. Sandi, Jesus is softly and tenderly calling to you to take the second chance he is offering you and treat your LGBT clergy as you would Jesus himself. You know how he talked about seeing Him in the face of the least of these. Well, here is your chance, Sandi, dear! Hear Jesus saying, “Sandi! Obey my commandment that you treat people as you yourself would want to be treated!” Oh, Sandi, the Lord is calling your name! Wanting so badly to bring you to himself! If only you would trust and obey! 🙂

  • So this isn’t a United Methodist organization, but a club of sexual voyeurs who happen members of the United Methodist denomination.

  • I am obeying His commands, but thank you anyway. I am helping people to know what they need to do to be right with Him. Praise Him!

  • Good. That means there will be more homosexuals knowing how to be right with God and start on their journey to a blessed life and Heaven.

  • Well, if you understand the word comforted, then you should have known your initial comment was silly. Blessings to you.

  • If they are endorsing homosexuality and allowing unrepentant sinners to speak for them, they are not following Jesus. Christ said homosexuality is a sin.

  • How many children do you want to destroy by lying to them that homosexuality is innate and immutable? People leave homosexuality every day. Christ said that homosexuality is a sin that will keep one out of the Kingdom of Heaven, and that it is a choice.

  • Sorry Katherine, but he’s right. Every kind of prohibited sexual behavior was categorized as sexual immorality (porneia). Everything from ordinary heterosexual premarital sex to prostitution to same-sex behavior to incest to bestiality, and every one of Jesus’ listeners would have understood that. When Josephus, a contemporary of Paul, wrote about Jewish laws he spoke of homosexuality (the “mixture of a male with a male”) in the context of the laws on marriage, not the laws on idolatry or assault or slavery or anything else. There is simply no getting around the clear witness of scripture and history.

  • Yeah, you seem to be obeying all but that “Don’t treat people like dirt” one. But never fear! I’ll pray for ya! Jesus will break into that hard part of your heart, Sister! I know He will! Blessings!

  • I think this new group in the UMC is entitled to their interpretations and beliefs they’ve created. Those people should then live by the conclusions they’ve drawn. Same for those who have come to different conclusions. The problem always comes when they want to impose their particular system on others.

  • As long as they teach that their idol says such and not Jesus, I don’t see a problem with it

  • We ‘get’ that homosexual rape, homosexual lust, and homosexual temple prostitution are condemned in Scripture. We ‘get’ that Paul publicly disapproved of nominally-heterosexual men (those men who “lie with women”) leaving that practice (which would be “natural” … for them, if they’re heterosexual) to seek sexual gratification with men. I ‘get’ that.

    But neither is what WE are discussing when we speak of loving, committed relationships culminating in marriage.

    My marriage has two husbands. My faith is in concordance with that. No one is forcing you or your faith to change your tenets, nor to bless relationships with which you disagree. But that is not happening.

    Meanwhile, any chance we could go back to discussing how ‘Christian’ it is to defrock a duly elected bishop because she loves someone you might not want her to? (aka … the topic)

  • I never before realized smarm was a ‘Christian’ value.

    Jesus was silent on the topic. Take the hint.

  • The people you are discussing with have been saying that homosexuality is not sin because they were born that way. But that is not how God measures sin.

    For example, studies have shown that some people are more succeptable to being alcoholics for example, i.e., they were born that way.

    Can we then claim that for those people (with that genetic marker) that getting constantly drunk is not a sinful behavior?

    It is sin, whether they are born with that predisposition or not.

    We are all born with different genetics, and personalities that are
    mediated by our environment as we grow. This makes us have different
    weaknesses in the flesh, whether it be gambling, drinking, stealing,
    etc.

    Just because we were born with one predisposition or another, does not absolve us of our duty to not sin.

  • Like I keep telling you, learn Who Jesus is and you will no longer think that way. Read a Bible.

  • Division is not new.

    Our all-inclusive church once sold our building to a Grant A. M. E. (African Methodist Episcopal) congregation, and my husband pointed out that every one of those letters stood for a schism of some sort.

    What I find “sad” is that members of the church can be so divisive. They’re basically saying, ‘We don’t want your kind here.’, and that’s pretty much the opposite of Christ’s message.

  • Between the command that there be no prostitution (and prostitution was a matter of multiplicity of partners, not merely remuneration) among the sons and daughters of Israel, and the obligation to marry an unattached virgin one has violated, the Torah effectively preempted premarital sex for both men and women.

  • That (a decline) is not the experience of our denomination at all. We’re an all-inclusive, all-welcoming church and we’ve out-grown 2 buildings.

    As to “stick to traditional church teachings”, since there are more than 35,00 branches of the Protestant Church in America alone, you’d have to be a bit more specific about WHICH traditions.

    Me? I like what Jesus said on the matter – which was nothing whatsoever. I wish more of His followers would pick up on the example.

  • What most actual churches are saying is “We want you right with Jesus. We want you to share His blessings and go to Heaven. This is how you do it.” Your lack of understanding of Christianity is sad.

  • I would suggest that you learn about Christianity. Homosexuality is a sin that Jesus will forgive and cleanse one of. (edit)
    People are being drawn into darkness and lied to that it is good and acceptable, and it isn’t.

  • Honey, I was raised Pentecostal/Salvationist and went to a Lutheran University. I’ve been a member of my current Christian faith for coming up on 35 years.

    Your ASSumption about my knowledge of Christianity is without foundation or credence.

    Jesus had nothing to say on the topic. If He had something to say, surely He’d have said it.

    I doubt, however, that “smug” can be “forgiven”.

  • Christ makes it very clear in Romans 1 that homosexuality is exchanging what is natural, for what is unnatural. He also refers to it as perversion. He’s not going to create someone for that.

  • Sandi, you have ‘tried to help me’ on several threads, and you’ve failed miserably in your ‘mission’. Your smug self-righteousness just got in the way of any ‘ministry’ you might have been capable of.

  • You and I disagree on what you call “truth”.

    We’ve been through this before. You’ve convinced no one to change their mind on the topic.

  • I’m sorry that you misinterpret confidence in Christ as smugness…..is it possibly defensiveness on your part?

  • I am a member of one of the following list of faiths – Christian and otherwise – that embrace equal marriage. It’s getting longer all the time:

    Affirming Pentecostal Church International
    Alliance of Christian Churches
    Anointed Affirming Independent Ministries
    The Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
    Buddhism
    Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
    Community of Christ
    Conservative Judaism
    Ecumenical Catholic Church
    Ecumenical Catholic Communion
    The Episcopal Church
    Evangelical Anglican Church In America
    Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
    Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals
    Inclusive Orthodox Church
    Jainism
    Moravian Church Northern Province
    Metropolitan Community Church
    Old Catholic Church
    Presbyterian Church USA
    Progressive Christian Alliance
    Reconciling Pentecostals International
    Reconstructionist Judaism
    Reform Judaism
    Reformed Anglican Catholic Church
    Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)
    Sikhism
    Unitarian Universalist Church
    United Church of Christ
    Unity Church

    Why do you ask? This isn’t going to devolve into that ‘no TRUE Church’ ‘arguments’, is it?

  • “actual churches”

    Said like a “true Scotsman”.

    Your lack of charity and comprehension that “the church” is not of one accord on this matter is astounding.

    Believe what you want to.You’re free to. And, leave other people free to do the same. And leave the condescension.

  • agreed but genetics has nothing to do with that. There have been too many twin studies done that do not support the lies. Homosexuality is simply a choice. They exchanged the truth for a lie, they exchanged what is natural for what is unnatural. Blessings

  • You wrongly assume I 1. do not “know who Jesus is”, and 2. haven’t read a Bible.

    Have a lovely judgmental day.

  • I have been to the website. If it looks like a denomination and quacks like one it is one. This is clearly a not so subtle threat that so called “evangelicals” are prepared to up and leave over this Gays in the denomination. This organization mimics the denominational services in every way and form. It just focuses more intensely on the evangelicalism and not methodism. its wrong and I can’t believe seminary trained theologians or pastors are anywhere near this group. We have destroyed the intent of the bible and are using it like a fixit manual. Evangelicals feel that if we are all forced to paint by numbers the church will be alright. That is not and never has been the intent of a highly redacted book full of contridictions and various theologies and opinions. There isn’t a single message or path there. It is crazy and academically dishonest to append otherwise. And if we can’t be honest within the communion on the academic facts how can we possibly agree on variables that extend us unto faith?

  • You certainly do not display your knowledge of what He has taught to believe otherwise. blessings.

  • Perhaps you should take your own advice. Many people need the truth that so many of us struggle to present amongst fallacies like yours to get the truth to these people. We want people to be in Jesus’ blessings. Why don’t you?

  • Jesus told is in Matthew 19 what a marriage is composed of. A man and a woman. Never 2 of the same sex.

  • What are you talking about? Thus conversation doesn’t match how Paul or Jesus himself would have communicated with their time period. Half the problem is pew sitters are biblicaly illiterate and are willing to accept whatever swill politically and financially motivated church leaders pawn on them. This is as bad now as it was during the days of Martin Luther.

  • It isn’t a case of “who’s Jesus”? Christ makes it very clear in Romans 1 that they follow an idol. Christ said that homosexuality is a sin, countless times. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because none were found to be righteous. There is no righteousness in sin.

  • All homosexual acts are condemned in Scripture. It is never affirmed by any Scripture passage or verse.

  • There is no room in Scripture for sex between anyone who is not in a heterosexual marriage of a man and a woman.

    Its not a marriage if you have 2 husbands. Jesus never made any provisions for any homosexual “marriages”.

    Any practicing homosexual is unfit for ministry.

  • Tell me why rape is not the subject in Judges 19:22-30. Are you saying that the context is not important? Violent rape is clearly the context here. Saying that homosexuality is a Sin because “I say it is” is not an argument. Remember that unclean meats are also an abomination (same word used in Leviticus 20:13 in reference to Anal sex between men) in Deuteronomy 14:3. This does not mean it is a Sin to eat these animals. It is rather a ritual purity infraction. Ritual purity has to do with what is clean and unclean. Deuteronomy 14 is about what animals are clean and what are unclean. Paul stated in Romans 14:14 that nothing is unclean in Christ Jesus.

  • “Thus conversation doesn’t match how Paul or Jesus himself would have communicated with their time period.” Paul learned from Jesus.
    ” Half the problem is pew sitters are biblicaly illiterate and are willing to accept whatever swill politically and financially motivated church leaders pawn on them.” Absolutely but Christ taught that homosexuality is a sin. How many churches have fallen because money was more important than teaching the truth? I think the RCC is headed in that direction with this current pope.
    Were they trying to teach that homosexuality is good and acceptable in Martin Luther’s time? This is not a RC/protestant disagreement. This is a wilful rebellion against the word of God when people teach that sin is good and acceptable.
    blessings to you.

  • Thats great except….Its Paul speaking not Jesus. And you make very clear the issue that we have in the church right now. Too many Christians have replaced Jesus with Paul.

  • Paul is not Christ. He is not equiv to Christ they don’t exist on the same plain of existence. The bible reflects differing social norms and beliefs as they changed over time. Following your logic not being an active pastor or bishop I can have as many spouses as I want. It says so in Timothy and all the patriarchs did it. But we have norms in this context that are vastly different now. And that changes things. It may be time to add to the Bible to reflect the passing of time.

  • God never said that heterosexual marriage is good. According to Genesis marriage in its current context is punishment for sin in the garden. Every aspect of it is punishment for our deciding that knowing good and evil was important. You can’t just pick and choose to fit your belief system. Read the book.

  • God created marriage as the follow-up to His division of humankind into male and female, all pre-Fall, and God said it was good. And “The man who finds a wife finds a treasure, and he receives favor from the LORD.” Prov. 18:22.

  • Jesus certainly did speak against homosexuality in Mark 7:20-21 where He uses the word “unchastity”, “immorality” and “fornications which includes adultery, incest, premarital infidelity, homosexuality, beastiality and any other sexual conduct condemned in the OT.

  • So, ‘being born that way’ absolves one of sin?

    Do some alcoholics, born with a genetic marker that makes them more prone to abuse alcohol, get a free pass now from being drunkards because they were born that way?

    Ultimately, don’t all humans have a propensity for sin of one kind or another? God made us that way …

    Can you see how the ‘born that way’ argument can be used to justify anything?

  • Christ taught Paul, eric.
    No, you are not following my logic whatsoever. Jesus said a man and a woman. That’s two people.

  • My friend, do you not know that Paul spent 3 years learning by revelation from Jesus in Arabia? Paul was setting up the church for the Gentiles for the Lord. Paul makes it very clear when he is giving his opinion and not that of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 7:12 being an example – “1 Corinthians 7:12Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

    12 But to others I say, not the Lord. If any brother hath an unfaithful wife, and she consenteth to dwell with him, leave he her not….”
    Paul learned from Jesus, for Jesus church. Don’t be deceived by allowing unbelievers to split the two of them and weaken your testimony.

  • No Christ did not teach Paul. That was half of his problem and why he was rebuked consistently by the disciples. (as in the guys who ACTUALLY new the guy)

  • No Christ did not teach Paul. That was half of his problem and why he was rebuked consistently by the disciples. (as in the guys who ACTUALLY new the guy)

  • Jesus revealing himself to Paul is heretical? You also understand that Paul was a Pharisee or Pharisees, taught under Gamaliel so he knew what the Lord was revealing to him was true, eh? Paul know the Law and the Prophets.

  • You do know that Paul was told to go forth with his teaching by the original disciples, eh?
    Acts 15: 22 New International Version

    Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, men

  • Are you suggesting that Trump, et.al., are proudly, publicly, proclaiming their sinful adulterous ways?

  • You would need to ask them that. I haven’t heard them push that they didn’t sin and that everyone should follow what they did. Send me a source for that one please

  • so let me summarize everything you just said in a shorter way so that your message is more easily understood:

    They practice their faith in a way that I don’t agree with so my opinion is that they are wrong.

  • you don’t have to see a problem with it at all. You’re not a member of their church.

  • // I haven’t heard them push that they didn’t sin and that everyone should follow what they did.//

    I haven’t heard of any instances where LGBTs are asking people to do as they do. Instead, LGBTs seem to ask to be left alone and to not be mistreated.

    Also, I have never heard of cake bakers or florists refusing to service a couple getting married for a second time, even though Jesus clearly states that’s adultery, one of the gravest sins. So when no one seems to point their judgemental finger at your sin, but instead actually embraces your sinful second marriage, it seems to me the adulterers don’t have to worry about “lying to the world that their sin is no longer a sin.”

  • Christ’s main commandment was for us to love one another. You certainly aren’t showing love by proclaiming your own superiority.

  • That is the most absurd statement I have ever heard, even from a literalistic Fundamentalist. There are millions of faithful Christians around the world who do not believe that God “said” the words of the Bible. Some of us relate to God through faith, not by looking up passages in a magically transcribed answer book. What are you going to do? Tell all of us that we don’t know God and aren’t following Jesus just because we don’t happen to agree with your OPINIONS? Why don’t you get a life and start telling people about the love of God revealed through Christ, instead of condemning your fellow Christians who don’t think like you?

  • “ruling luciferian elites”?!?!? You’ve got to be kidding. Who ARE you and what are you doing commenting on a thread about the United Methodist Church? You can’t possibly be a United Methodist. If you are, you should try going through Confirmation again.

  • The lgbt’s are not asking to be left alone. Rather they are demanding we accept their propaganda. If we don’t then expect to be sued or called a bigot.

  • Daniel, don’t try to argue with someone who is armed with her trusty Strong’s Concordance. After all, it’s right there in print . . . in a book . . . a big book . . . a book that makes people look like they know what they’re talking about . . . or, if it doesn’t convince other people, at least it makes the people who use it feel like they know everything. Too bad owning Strong’s isn’t the same as actually knowing how to read and correctly understand koine Greek or classical Hebrew.

    Hey Sandi, tell us where you got your seminary training.Tell us how many years of graduate-level study you have done of biblical languages.

  • That view is just that, a viewpoint about the writings in the Bible. What we call “the Bible” is a collection of writings declared sacred by a committee of early Christians appointed by a pagan Roman emperor, hardly a divine act. That’s why even the number of books in the Bible varies, depending on whether it’s Catholics, Orthodox Christians or Evangelicals. If it was so literally “The Word of God,” there would be only one version, not hundreds of them.

  • what specifically would you like me to tell them? And what subject, because you are being very specific.

    Example: You could have said “tell that to JP (yourself)”.

    In which case I would tell you “Hey JP, mind your own business”…..but mind your own business in regards to what?

    There always has to be a subject.

    Lets say you and I are at the mall and I’m trying on a shirt and you said “that shirt is ugly”, I would then tell you to mind your own business. Or lets say you got pizza for lunch and I said “that looks nasty” you would then tell me to mind my own business.

    So you want me to tell the LGBT crowd to mind their own business? Okay then, in regards to what?

  • Uh oh. She said “Period.” That’s it, Daniel. The jig is up. She’s got us now. How can we possibly argue with “Period.” You win, Sandi.

    Naaa, just kidding. You’re wasting your time and ours, Sandi. Quoting Bible verses doesn’t convince anyone. I’ve read all those verses. I imagine Daniel has too. I just don’t interpret them in the same way you do.

    So do us all a favor and just go away. Or, better yet, since you believe every word in the Bible is spoken by God and infallible, read I Timothy 2:12 then go and do likewise.

  • How can you reinterpret, “You shall not sleep with a man as with a woman. It is an abomination.”? No…I’m free to help people here and intend to do so. Blessings

  • Welcome to SandiWorld, Daniel. Here’s how it works:
    (1) God spoke every word in the Bible.
    (2) Jesus is God.
    (3) Therefore, Jesus spoke every word in the Bible.
    (4) God/Jesus gave Sandi a secret decoder ring so that she would know exactly what God/Jesus meant by every word God/Jesus spoke in the Bible.
    (5) God/Jesus put Sandi in charge in telling everyone else on this thread that she is right and they are wrong.

  • If you knew what you were talking about, yes, you would agree with me. The Bible is the Word of God.

  • // The lgbt’s are not asking to be left alone. //

    Specifically, they are asking to be treated equally.

    // Rather they are demanding we
    accept their propaganda. //

    What propaganda? The right to marry like heterosexuals? The right be visit their spouses in the hospital? The right to claim tax deductions like straight married couples? The right to not be denied services from bakers and florists simply because they’re gay?

    // If we don’t then expect to be sued or called a
    bigot. //

    That’s because it is bigotry. (And please don’t blame Jesus for your bigotry.)

  • Ah, but I am loving people. I am helping them to be right with Jesus when others here want to send them off to their death. Judging – I quote God’s word. You have difficulty with His judgment, talk to Him.

  • What you think “what the lord taught” is in your own mind.

    Just like they think they know what the lord taught.

    Your interpretation does not trump their interpretation.

  • No, I don’t hate Jesus one bit.

    I hate nosey christians like you who don’t know how to mind your own business.

    Let my relationship with Jesus by MY relationship with Jesus. Stop trying to butt-in because you and your opinion has no authority over me or my relationship with Jesus.

    The day you turn to someone and say “you can’t say/think that, it’s ungodly” is the day you are not minding your own business. YOU are not the decider of what is “godly”.

    So it’s just simple. Mind your own business.

  • You have repeatedly stated that heterosexuals are superior to Gays. Saying heterosexuality is the “norm” IS saying heterosexuals are better people. Christ clearly taught that we shouldn’t think of ourselves as being better than others.

  • not afraid of having a sinner in the leadership. They are afraid of having an unrepentant sinner in their leadership – a person not practicing Christianity.

  • Thank you for the extensive list of churches who have left Christ’s teachings, or never adhered to them at all.

  • If you are practicing homosexuality, and I pray not, you are not following Jesus. Jesus loves you and He did say that He would forgive and heal you of your sin. blessings.

    Jude 1:17-19King James Version (KJV)

    17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

    18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

    19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

  • // So you cannot fulfill my request. Thank you. //

    What request? “Proof” that Christians who refuse to embrace same-sex marriages because it’s a sexual sin are hypocritically willing to support straight couples getting married for a second time who are also committing a sexual sin?

  • No….Christ has been very clear that homosexuality is a sin. They are abusing precious people who could go to Heaven.

  • you realize the true lack of logic in what you are trying to argue, right?

    Essentially your argument is “you aren’t praying, or living, like I am in accordance to how I, myself, Sandi, personally interprets the bible. So therefor you aren’t doing it right”.

    Sandi you only get to decide what the bible means to you.

    You do not get to decide what it means to others.

    This is why you need to mind your own business. You have no authority to tell other people that how they interpret the bible is inferior to how you interpret the bible.

  • He’s not the only one who has detected your smug self-righteousness, Sandi. I have known Christ as my Savior for 46 years, 38 of those years in ordained ministry. And 7 of those 38 years were spent as president of an evangelical seminary. So I have ministered to and with thousands of Christians, all along a wide spectrum of theological perspectives. But never in any of those years have I encountered anyone whose demeanor has made Christ and Christianity more obnoxious than you have on this thread. There is no love in your words. Rather, your lips are dripping with vicious self-righteous and arrogant condemnations of the very kind Jesus condemned repeatedly, wherever he encountered it.

    I’m sure you will disagree with what I say, because you seem to be incapable of genuine introspection and honest self-assessment. But, for what it’s worth, as a pastor (laying aside my snarky sarcasm of earlier posts), I beg you to search your heart, repent of your arrogance, and pray to be made more Christlike, offering love and encouragement rather than assaulting people with your doctrines.

    This is the last comment I intend to make to you, Sandi. The pointless battling has grown tiresome. I have shared my heart with you, and I am at peace.

  • I understand the quotes.

    The difference is that you and I interpret them differently.

    Your interpretation does not trump my interpretation. And vice versa.

  • You can only teach to those who are wanting to learn.

    For people who don’t want to hear you, you aren’t teaching…you are not minding your own business.

  • “No….Christ has been very clear that homosexuality is a sin.”

    Thats what you’ve interpreted from the bible.

    But thats not what I’ve interpreted.

    Your interpretation does not trump my interpretation. And it never will.

  • New International Version
    For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. (Romans 1:21) Christ will help you with that though.

  • thank you for the blessings.
    (edit)
    For your reference:
    2 Timothy 4:3 -New International Version
    For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.”
    Something you may want to meditate on:
    Galatians 1: Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!”

  • There are those who are reading who are learning the truth you choose to hide. blessings amelia.

  • The Pharisees quoted Scripture to Christ about plucking corn as well as healing on the Sabbath. Jesus said Love was more important. Christ taught us to remove our own Sins before we look at others. Even Paul stated in Romans 2:1 that “Therefore, you are without excuse every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.” And remember Paul stated this AFTER the statement about idol worshipers in Romans 1. You try to use Romans 1 as a basis for condemning Gay people, but Paul clearly states that you condemn yourself by doing this.

  • I don’t condemn anyone. I quote scripture. Are you presently trying to condemn me though?

  • Show us one verse in the bible that condones the abomination of homosexuality Romans 1 :32 which is in agreement with the OT and while you’re at where women can be Pastors….Start with the bible in 1 Tim 3.

  • Come on, every statement you have made is a condemnation of persons just because they are Gay, as well as a proclamation that heterosexuals are superior. I didn’t choose to be gay and then you call me a Sinner. “Sin” has to be deliberate to be a sin.

  • Just to educate those the like to “interpret” God’s holy word according to their sinful opinion this is what God’s word states about the abomination of homosexuality. And once you actually let the Holy Spirit influence your opinion and presents facts about Christ word you will know God doesn’t support the sin of homosexuality in any way shape or form.

    1 Cor 6:9-11 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor wantons, nor buggerers, (http://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/diction.htm)
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified, in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    Gal 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
    19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    1 Timothy 1:9-11
    9 Knowing this, that the Law is not given unto a righteous man, but unto the lawless and disobedient, to the ungodly, and to sinners, to the unholy, and to the profane, to murderers of fathers and mothers, to manslayers,
    10 To whoremongers, to buggerers (http://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/diction.htm), to menstealers, to liars, to the perjured, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to wholesome doctrine,
    11 Which is according to the glorious Gospel of the blessed God, which is committed unto me.

    Romans 1 21-32
    21 Because that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was full of darkness.
    22 When they professed themselves to be wise, they became fools.
    23 For they turned the glory of the incorruptible God to the similitude of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and four footed beasts, and of creeping things.
    24 Wherefore also God gave them up to their hearts lusts, unto uncleanness, to defile their own bodies between themselves:
    25 Which turned the truth of God unto a lie, and worshipped and served the creature, forsaking the Creator which is blessed forever, Amen.
    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Colossians 3:5
    Mortify therefore your members which are on the earth, fornication, uncleanness, the inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness which is idolatry.

    1 Samuel 15: 1 Samuel
    23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and transgression is wickedness and idolatry. Because thou hast cast away the word of the Lord, therefore he hath cast away thee from being king.

  • Homosexuality is a choice, and a sin. Read Romans 1. Read Leviticus 18. Read the Book of Matthew. Read the Book of Revelation. It is a sin. Christ will forgive and heal you of your sin. You just need to ask Him.

  • 1 Cor 6:9-11 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor wantons, nor buggerers, (http://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/diction.htm)
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified, in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    Gal 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
    19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    1 Timothy 1:9-11
    9 Knowing this, that the Law is not given unto a righteous man, but unto the lawless and disobedient, to the ungodly, and to sinners, to the unholy, and to the profane, to murderers of fathers and mothers, to manslayers,
    10 To whoremongers, to buggerers (http://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/diction.htm), to menstealers, to liars, to the perjured, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to wholesome doctrine,
    11 Which is according to the glorious Gospel of the blessed God, which is committed unto me.

    Romans 1 21-32
    21 Because that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was full of darkness.
    22 When they professed themselves to be wise, they became fools.
    23 For they turned the glory of the incorruptible God to the similitude of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and four footed beasts, and of creeping things.
    24 Wherefore also God gave them up to their hearts lusts, unto uncleanness, to defile their own bodies between themselves:
    25 Which turned the truth of God unto a lie, and worshipped and served the creature, forsaking the Creator which is blessed forever, Amen.
    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Colossians 3:5
    Mortify therefore your members which are on the earth, fornication, uncleanness, the inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness which is idolatry.

    1 Samuel 15: 1 Samuel
    23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and transgression is wickedness and idolatry. Because thou hast cast away the word of the Lord, therefore he hath cast away thee from being king.

  • Interpreters fall into two categories: those who seek to interpret the passage objectively with respect for the original meaning of the authors, and those who have an agenda.

    You obviously have an agenda that is not biblical.

  • That is a story about temple prostitution fertility practices. I know lots of gay men, having gathered about a million and a quarter gay folks in one place and time. I know no temple prostitutes engaging in the fertility practices of a now defunct tribal culture. Do you? Really?

  • No. God was teaching what He expected of us sexually in Leviticus 18. In
    Chapter 20 – He repeats his admonition with a penalty. There is no discussion of temple prostitution fertility rites there. You are mistaken. Christ is very clear in what He is saying.

  • And you don’t cherry pick? Girl, you must take me for a fool — or be an ironing fool yourself, eschewing all those blended fabrics!

  • Actually, for the misinformation that you seem to be trying to provide, I would say that you are cherry picking. I submit scripture. You’ve submitted an errant opinion.

  • You are correct. In God’s eyes, homosexuals are not married. If He didn’t approve of the relationship, He won’t change his mind because one tries to call it marriage. Just doesn’t work that way. But, between husband (male) and wife (female) you are correct.

  • I really cannot talk to you about this anymore. You simply don’t have any empathy for what other people go through, at least for Gay people. You don’t try to put yourself in another person’s shoes. I didn’t want to be Gay because I wanted to be married and have kids. I have gone to years of psychotherapy and it didn’t make me attracted to women and not to men. Homosexuality is NOT like alcoholism. It is NOT an outward behavior that we cannot control. It is a matter of attractions that we cannot control. You fail to heed what Paul stated about judging in Romans 2:1. The book of Revelation states NOTHING about homosexuality and in fact it states in Revelation 14:4 that heterosexual relations can be defiling- that is, just like in Romans 1 where these are combined with idol worship. Clearly you are judging. Christ can forgive you of being so unloving and judgmental as you are. A first step is to stop denying that you are being condemning and judgmental- clearly you are. A truly loving person tries to understand people from their own perspective. They don’t try to project their own prejudices or “pre judgments” into other people. I am not saying you don’t have any love for anyone, but clearly you have no love for Gay people in any sense of the word.

  • Actually, the Book of Revelation does discuss homosexuality – it confirms 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.
    It is not judging to tell you what Christ said.
    I have enough sin that I am well acquainted with that I don’t need to try to understand why you choose to sin, Daniel. Jesus loves you and I am telling you HIS truth. You can hide behind excuses or you can put your trust in Him. He is faithful.
    I’m showing my love for you by telling you the truth.

  • no need to look. How do you know that he has not already repented? We only need to repent once and then it is forgotten. Try again.
    Also, I don’t open links from people I don’t know. Just give me the source and what to look for – if it’s there. Thanks.

  • Not really since they missed this verse……John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    The ignorance of the carnal christian satanic church is subtle….they know God’s word but do not honor it.

  • Amen. There’s one who says he was a teacher. He thinks that will make his lies credible. Can you imagine how many people he is hurting? Incredible!

  • The so-called “God’s holy word” is nothing more than the word of delusional and/or fraudulent men claiming to speak for a god. And then later, after people cherry-picked the writings to be included in the Bible, it became labeled as “Scripture” in an effort to elevate its perception above the level of ordinary writings, and to convey the illusion of it being the supreme source of authority.

    Nothing in “God’s holy word” interpreted as opposition to homosexuality can survive a test in the light of reason and evidence for concluding it is immoral. People are finally realizing that the existence of homosexuality causes no harm whatsoever to anyone, and thus it is not immoral despite the views of people still clinging to the writings of ignorant/bigoted ancient writers.

    And furthermore, advocating the full social acceptance of gay people strengthens family bonds, and thus it is the authentic pro-family position.

  • Just so you know the truth about your obvious lies and deceptions….It is about Actions and Consequences, which then determines if a person’s actions (behavior in particular) are correct or incorrect… the results of the behavior.

    And homosexuality time and time again proves to be a highly detrimental behavior, which needs to be corrected, not glamorized nor rights given to it.

    Here are just a few examples of the detrimental results of the homosexual behavior.

    – Dr. Selma Dritz in the New England Journal of Medicine: “Oral and ana l inter course present physicians with surgical as well as medical problems, ranging from ana l fissures and impaction of foreign bodies in the rectum to major diagnostic dilemmas.”
    * Reference: Dritz SK. “Medical Aspects of Homosexuality.” The New England Journal of Medicine, 1980; Vol. 302 No. 8 (463-464).

    – “Study: Gay Men Are Twice as Likely to Have Cancer”, Yahoo story, By MEREDITH MELNICK Meredith Melnick– Tue May 10, 10:05 pm ET

    – Lesbian sex is linked to higher risks of bacterial vaginosis, HPV specifically genital warts—squamous intraepithelial lesions, trichomoniasis, syphilis, and Herpes simplex virus (HSV), and cervical cancer even among women who have had no prior sex with men. In addition, women who have sex with women have a higher risk of HIV/Aids due to the fact that many of identified lesbians have had sex with bisexual men much more so than a hetero woman has. Transmission also occurs through vaginal and cervical secretions between lesbian women.

    * Reference: Women Who Have Se x with Women (WSW), Centers for Disease Control, 2006 (MMWR August 4, 2006 / Vol. 55 / No. RR–11). Retrieved on January 9, 2009.
    – Frenkl, Tara Lee, Potts, Jeannette (February 2008). “Sexually Transmitted Infections”, Urologic Clinics of North America, 35 (1) p. 33–46.

    – In The Gay Report, by Jay and Young, homosexual researchers surveyed the sex habits of homosexuals, Traditional Values reported. The result shows that:

    · 99% had engaged in oral se x
    · 91% had engaged in anal intercourse
    · 83% engaged in rimmi ng (mouth to anu s contact)
    · 22% had fisted their sex partners
    · 23% admitted to golden showers (urinating on a se x partner)
    · 76% admitted to group or public se x
    · 4% admitted ingesting feces
    These behaviors are the seedbed for a whole variety of serious intestinal parasites, viruses, and bacteria known collectively as “Gay Bowel Syndrome.”

    -Dr. Stephen E. Goldstone, the medical director of Gay Health.com says that 68% of HIV-positive and 45% of HIV-negative homosexual men have abnormal or precancerous an/al cells, noted Traditional Values.

    -Medical experts and scientists believe that the increased number of sexually transmitted diseases (STD) cases is the result of an increase in risky sexual practices by a growing number of gay men. One in five gay men were found to have HIV, according to a study released by the CDC in 2010.

    Latest… STDs continue on the increase in San Francisco for the 6th year in a row!
    Reference: Article “California: San Francisco sees Spike in STDs”, from HIV/AIDS Resource for Gay Men website, U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention, February 13, 2012.

    “MSM have higher HIV and other STI rates than do women and heterosexual men”, Reference: Article from HIV/AIDS Resource for Gay Men website, U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention, May 29, 2012.

    “Gay, bisexual, and other men who have se x with men (MSM)1represent approximately 2% of the US population, yet are the population most severely affected by HIV”, Reference, article “ HIV Among Gay and Bisexual Men”, from website HIV/AIDS Resource for Gay Men website, U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention, May 18, 2012.

    “Atlanta researchers found a high rate of HIV in gay male couples who thought both partners were HIV-negative”, Reference, article “Gay couples at Risk”, from website HIV/AIDS Resource for Gay Men website, U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention, November/December 2011.

    There is a lot, lot, and lot more, but as for the result of these previous studies, it is simple.

    Gay men for example, have ana l sex as their main se x act, and the colon is NOT prepare to fight viruses as the vagin a does with all its acidity. Furthermore, the colon is designed by nature to absorb as much material as it can, so when a peni s is introduced in it with all its “wonderful” viruses and bacteria traveling on it, the colon simply does what it does best, it tries to adsorb all of it…. hence the person is more likely to get infections, viruses, cancer causing agents, etc.

    The same with Fella tio, the mouth is the beginning of the digestion process, and gay men and lesbians indulge heavily in it, so the introduction of viruses, germs and cancer causing agents into a person is more likely in these cases.

    Action and consequences… that is what the opposition against homosexuality has always been all about, the bad consequences to the individuals and society.. because yes YOU too are affected, that irresponsible reckless sexual behavior results in diseases being passes around/spread upon the population, increasing the Health Care cost for everyone! …so when your Health Coverage BILL increases come in the mail d-o n-o-t complain… with “acceptance” of homosexuality, you asked for it!

  • Tell me what chapter and verse does the book of Revelation discuss homosexuality. You never have discussed any sin of your own, but only have said that other Gay people are sinners. I don’t really think you believe that Christ loves me. Even many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists now admit that homosexual orientation (feelings as opposed to outward behavior) is not a choice. Even James Dobson says that it is not a choice. Even many conservative United Methodists will state that the feelings are not a choice. Saying I am making “excuses” is like saying I am making excuses for the color of my eyes. I have had homosexual feelings since I was very young. Saying I “can hide behind excuses” shows very little understanding or empathy for what I and other people have gone through. You don’t believe me and am telling me that I am a liar. Why wouldn’t that be considered to be judgmental?

  • “there are lesbian and homosexual couples all over this country raising families. There are single homosexual people all over this country raising families.” Not really – just rearing (no pun intended) someone else’s progeny, unless it is actually one of the homosexual’s blood related offspring, or kin, then there is only one of the homosexual couple raising a family. Family was originally based on consanguinity (“blood relation”, from the Latin consanguinitas) refers to the property of being from the same kinship as another person. So, mothers, father’s, grandparents, widows, widowers, aunts, uncles, et al. raising “blood-related” children are raising families. Everything else is just co-opting the concept of family in hopes of gaining societal approval of their lifestyle.

  • Daniel….are you looking for help with your homosexuality, or are you looking to hold onto excuses. There is no way to sugar-coat God’s word, and I will not. That isn’t good for you or anyone else on this thread.
    You don’t need to know my sins, and this would be the last place that I would share them…
    Dobson may say what you say he does, but Christ said it in Romans 1.26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.”
    God is not responsible for your sin.
    Are you certain you are ready for more scripture?
    (edit) Fundamentalists and Evangelicals do not support the lies about homosexuality.

  • “Interpreters fall into two categories: those who seek to interpret the
    passage objectively with respect for the original meaning of the
    authors, and those who have an agenda.”

    Just like yourself.

    You clearly have an agenda.

  • “1 Cor 6:9-11 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the
    kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
    adulterers, nor wantons, nor buggerers,”

    Since I asked for one verse, and then you posted many, I’ll go off of the first verse you stated.

    In that first verse where do you see the word “homosexual” or “gay”?

  • How does one prove they are homosexual in public?

    Why should anyone get treated equally because of their sexual preferences?

  • Twin studies that have been done by legitimate scientific outlets have shown differences in the brains of otherwise identical twins that could explain why one is gay and one is not. It’s not genetic, but it is physiological. As for the claim that being born that way for the propensity of addiction somehow mutes or disproves the same statement in regard to homosexuality is just misguided. You don’t know if you have an addictive personality until you actually try the thing you become addicted to. People have known they were homosexual when they were children. Many come from conservative families with NO exposure to homosexuality. They just know. It’s in their being. Again, how can it be a choice if you don’t know from which you’re choosing? You have to have knowledge of alternatives to make a “choice”.

    Unfortunately, the modern church has fallen victim to things that were once minor theological opinions and not gererally accepted: the doctrines of Biblical literalism and Biblical inerrancy. The Bible as a literal document did not become popular until the 18th century. If the Bible was a literal document from its inception, then the statement by St Augustine of Hippo that reasoning was needed in the interpretation of Scripture and that most of Genesis was an “extended metaphor” should be considered heresy. If the Bible is a literal document, then the entire church would recognize the Apocrypha as scriptural. Instead, it was removed by Martin Luther in the 16th century as part of the Reformation. Don’t you see. Even Christians couldn’t agree on the Bible. The doctrine of Biblical inerrancy as a major theological point actually is a modern construct, finding popularity only after the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy in 1978. You say God/Jesus wrote the Bible. I say Scripture itself doesn’t back that up.

    “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”.
    – ‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

    Note that it says Scripture is inspired by God, not written by Him. There’s a HUGE difference there. Most translations come to the same conclusion. The New American Standard Bible and the American Standard Version both say it’s “inspired by God”, the New International Version and Amplified Bible call it “God breathed”, but the Amplified goes on to say it’s “given by Divine Inspiration”. And still, the Bible as a whole document didn’t exist until it was assembled by man. In fact, there was not a generally accepted list of what was and was not Canonical in the New Testament until the 4th century, most notably the Synod of Hippo in 393 CE. Before that, things were added or taken away as opinions changed. To claim the Bible as a literal, infallible document in the wake of such an unsettled history is just fallacy. The Bible is definitely profitable for Christians, but it’s not the complete how to manual or definitive rule book most want it to be. That’s why God sent the Holy Spirit.

  • // How does one prove they are homosexual in public? //

    How does one prove they are heterosexual? I suspect we have to take their word for it.

    // Why should anyone get treated equally because of their sexual preferences? //

    That’s the point. Someone’s sexual preferences shouldn’t be a factor in how they are treated, (pedophiles and rapists excluded).

  • You don’t have to prove you are heterosexual in public. Rights have nothing to do with sexual preferences. Also, heterosexuals is the default position. Always has been, always will be.

    So how do you prove you are homosexual in public?

    So we agree. No rights should be granted to anyone based on their sexual preferences. Yet that is what homosexuals want.

  • 1 Timothy 2:12 is a very good text to quote. Sandi, despite her claim to be Biblical is claiming authority over me, a Gay man. According to this text she is NOT to teach me or have any authority over me, since I am a man.

  • I identified where it stated it you just need to read it for what it states. Please see the link for the definition of “buggerers” that I put there specifically for those like you that ask such foolish questions. BTW the word “homosexual” has many “synonyms” perhaps you should look up that word too eh?

  • “I identified where it stated it you just need to read it for what it states.”

    Except nothing in what you posted said anything about “homosexuality” or “gay”

  • So. God was not discussing them in Leviticus. He was teaching what He expects of us sexually and chapter 18 is sexual sin – one of which he identifies as a man sleeping with another man as with a woman. You’re cherry picking scripture there Daniel.

  • Actually you know little to nothing about scriptural marriage by your erroneous opinion. God always said a marriage consisted of ONEman and ONE woman.

    WIFE NOT WIVES

    Genesis 2: 23 – 25
    23 Then the man said, This now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman, because she was taken out of the man.
    24 Therefore shall man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be one flesh.
    25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and they were not ashamed.

    Matthew 19:4-5
    4. And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning, made them male and female,
    5.And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

    Mark 10:6-7
    6. But at the beginning of the creation God made them male and female:
    7.For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

    Ephesians 5:31
    For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

    1 Corinthians 11:11
    Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

    Leviticus 21:13
    And he shall take a wife in her virginity.

    Proverbs 18:22
    Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.

    Proverbs 19:14
    House and riches are the inheritance of fathers: and a prudent wife is from the LORD.

    1 Cor 7:4-7
    1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me, It were good for a man not to touch a woman.
    2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
    3 Let the husband give unto the wife due benevolence, and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
    4 The wife hath not the power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not the power of his own body, but the wife.

    1 Corinthians 7:10
    And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

    1 Corinthians 7:14
    For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

    1 Corinthians 7:33
    But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

    Ephesians 5:23
    For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

    Ephesians 5:33
    Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

    1 Timothy 3:2
    A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

    1 Timothy 3:12
    Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

    Titus 1:6
    If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

    1 Peter 3:7
    Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

  • Make no mistake the Scriptures condemn homosexuality even when the word is not mentioned. Consider:
    “26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.” Romans 1

  • So you have no original thoughts? Yes I teach God’s word however you teach your erroneous opinion. So when will you give scripture instead of you erroneous opinion to back up your false claims?

  • // Rights have nothing to do with sexual preferences. //

    Then why are some Christians hellbent on denying homosexuals the same rights as everyone else? For example, until recently, it was okay for states to deny same-sex couples the same rights the rest of us enjoy.

    // Also, heterosexuals is the default position. Always has been, always will be. //

    What does that even mean?

    // So how do you prove you are homosexual in public? //

    Okay, I give up. How DO you prove you’re a homosexual in public?

    // So we agree. No rights should be granted to anyone based on their sexual preferences. Yet that is what homosexuals want. //

    Nope. LGBTs want to have the same rights as the rest of us straight folks. Which means they do not want straight people to have the right to discriminate against them because they’re gay.

  • Are you that thick to not look up the words that have the same meaning as homosexuality? Or do you not comprehend a man lying with a man as a woman is indeed a homosexual, gay , buggerere, gay , sodomite, pervert and the such? You do know how to use a dictionary or do you need the assistance of an adult?

  • You obviously don’t comprehend what a synonym is do you….seeing you just used one I believe you just bloviating to save face.

  • How is stating exactly what Deuteronomy 23:18-19 says “cherry picking?” Anyway, Leviticus 20:2-3 speaks against making offerings to Molech. Verse 25 in this chapter speaks of distinguishing clean from unclean animals. Verse 18 states that persons, even when married, who have sex when the woman is menstruating shall be cut off from their people permanently.

  • “Are you that thick to not look up the words that have the same meaning as homosexuality?”

    Meaning or explicitly said?

    Cause I’m not looking for your meanings of homosexuality, I’m looking for what the bible explicitly says about homosexuality.

  • none of that said anything about homosexuality.

    If you think it does then that means that is how you personally interpret it.

  • So? Chapter 18 specifically speaks to immoral sexuality to the point of bestiality. Read it again, Daniel. (edit)
    Also, you completely ignored the scripture I submitted.

  • Since when does God’s word condone fornication in any way? As to your claim about women menstruating and sex…….isn’t that OT law written to the Jews? Or perhaps you can show us where it’s carried over to the New Covenant?

  • Christians realize that there should be no rights for sexual preferences.
    Secondly, homosexual “marriage” is impossible. You must have a husband and wife to have a marriage. Only a man can be a husband and a woman a wife. This is why homosexual “marriages” are fakes. Its like saying there is such a thing as square circles.

    So there is no way to prove a person is homosexual in public. That’s a problem because anyone claim that.

    Men and women already have equal rights under the law. Giving rights because of a person’s sexual preferences is not found in the Constitution.

    People discriminate all the time. Some of its valid, some is not. People should not be forced to serve anyone if it goes against their convictions.

  • Still bloviating about nonsense? Instead of backing up your misinformation through God’s word?

  • You’ll never comprehend unless you open your eyes the God’s word. Obviously you will say anything to Justify what God calls an abomination and that is solely on you.

  • Again you are teaching a false gospel supporting homosexuality in any way Knowing God condemns it and calls it an abomination in both the OT and the NT and in fact God calls for the death penalty in both testaments.

  • Why do those faux christians always fall back on the “your interpretation” when you know you’re wrong and many other verses prove that FACT?

  • There are 200 passages in both the Old and New Testaments which uphold the institution of slavery. And anyway, was raping the concubine and dismembering her in Judges 19 alright because it was heterosexual and not homosexual?

  • SFC, if you and SL are just going to talk to each and “Like” each other’s comments, why don’t you go somewhere else and do it. From the reception you have gotten, it’s pretty obvious you’re not wanted or needed here.

  • You obviously don’t know the difference between and indentured servant and a slave. So again I’ll remind you rape and any kind of fornication according to God’s word is sin And in fact RAPE calls for the death penalty as well as the sin of homosexuality.

  • I was merely stating some of the context of what you stated. Perhaps the ban on Anal sex between men was a reaction, at least in part, to male cult prostitutes. And remember that unclean animals are also called “abominations,” in Deuteronomy 14:3. Unclean animals could be more the context than bestiality.

  • The Bible does condemn the abduction of slaves and their sale – i.e. the Bible condemns slavery precisely as it was done in the US: “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death” (Exodus 21:16) — slavery against one’s will is punishable by DEATH in Scripture — the only “selling” permitted in the Scripture is if a person sells themselves – i.e. for financial reasons.

    Homicide of slaves. In most ancient states the slave was the absolute property of his master, and might be ill-used to any extent, even killed, without the law in any way interfering. It is said that the state of things was different in Egypt (Kalisch); but we have scarcely sufficient evidence on the point to be certain that the slave enjoyed there any real and efficient protection. At Athens, beyond a doubt, the law protected the life of the slave; and a very moderate amount of ill-treatment entitled a slave to bring an action. At Rome, on the contrary, “the master could treat the slave as he pleased, could sell him, punish him, and put him to death” (Dict. of Greek & Roman Antiq. p. 1036). And this was the ordinary state of the law, particularly in Oriental countries. The Mosaic legislation must be regarded as having greatly ameliorated the condition of the native slave population. Hebrew bondmen it placed nearly upon a par with hired servants (Leviticus 25:40); foreign slaves, whether prisoners taken in war, or persons bought in the market, it protected to a very great extent. By the law given in verses 26, 27, it largely controlled the brutality of masters, who had to emancipate their slaves if they did them any serious injury. By the law laid down in verse 20, it gave their lives the same protection, or nearly the same, as the lives of freemen. “Smiting “was allowed as a discipline, without which slavery cannot exist; but such smiting as resulted in death was, as a general rule, punishable like any other homicide. The only exception was, if the slave did not die for some days (ver. 21). In that case the master was considered not to have intended the slave’ s death, and to be sufficiently punished by the loss of his property.

  • An Orthodox Rabbi told me that only Anal sex, but not Oral sex carried the death penalty in Leviticus. But remember that gathering sticks on the Sabbath also carried the death penalty, as well as touching the mountain of the Lord.

  • // Christians realize that there should be no rights for sexual preferences. //

    This is the first time I have ever heard someone make this claim. Nonetheless, if there should be no rights for sexual preferences, then that means Christians do not have the right to discriminate based on sexual preferences.

    // Secondly, homosexual “marriage” is impossible. You must have a husband and wife to have a marriage. Only a man can be a husband and a woman a wife. //

    SCOTUS disagrees. Homosexual marriage is not only possible, it’s the law of the land.

    // So there is no way to prove a person is homosexual in public. That’s a problem because anyone claim that. //

    This is a bizarre argument. What do you expect people to do “in public”? Have intercourse?

    // Men and women already have equal rights under the law. Giving rights
    because of a person’s sexual preferences is not found in the
    Constitution. //

    Here again, the problem is that LGBTs are being targeted for discrimination, being denied their equal rights under the law.

    // People discriminate all the time. Some of its valid, some is not. People should not be forced to serve anyone if it goes against their convictions. //

    Oh? Should we be allowed to not serve someone because of their age, or gender, or race, or country of birth, or their religion? (Doesn’t sound like something Jesus would support.)

  • So you believe an unsaved Rabbi over God’s word? Perhaps you should educate yourself and look up what exactly the word FORNICATION entails?

  • Homosexuality according to John Hopkins is still a mental disease. It is in fact you homosexuals forcing you perversion on those who don’t believe in your newly acquired special rights. BTW there never was sexual rights protections mentioned in the Constitution because our Christian forefathers knew it was sin according to God’s word and also by medical professionals.

    It is about Actions and Consequences, which then determines if a person’s actions (behavior in particular) are correct or incorrect… the results of the behavior.

    And homosexuality time and time again proves to be a highly detrimental behavior, which needs to be corrected, not glamorized nor rights given to it.

    Here are just a few examples of the detrimental results of the homosexual behavior.

    – Dr. Selma Dritz in the New England Journal of Medicine: “Oral and ana l inter course present physicians with surgical as well as medical problems, ranging from ana l fissures and impaction of foreign bodies in the rectum to major diagnostic dilemmas.”
    * Reference: Dritz SK. “Medical Aspects of Homosexuality.” The New England Journal of Medicine, 1980; Vol. 302 No. 8 (463-464).

    – “Study: Gay Men Are Twice as Likely to Have Cancer”, Yahoo story, By MEREDITH MELNICK Meredith Melnick– Tue May 10, 10:05 pm ET

    – Lesbian sex is linked to higher risks of bacterial vaginosis, HPV specifically genital warts—squamous intraepithelial lesions, trichomoniasis, syphilis, and Herpes simplex virus (HSV), and cervical cancer even among women who have had no prior sex with men. In addition, women who have sex with women have a higher risk of HIV/Aids due to the fact that many of identified lesbians have had sex with bisexual men much more so than a hetero woman has. Transmission also occurs through vaginal and cervical secretions between lesbian women.

    * Reference: Women Who Have Se x with Women (WSW), Centers for Disease Control, 2006 (MMWR August 4, 2006 / Vol. 55 / No. RR–11). Retrieved on January 9, 2009.
    – Frenkl, Tara Lee, Potts, Jeannette (February 2008). “Sexually Transmitted Infections”, Urologic Clinics of North America, 35 (1) p. 33–46.

    – In The Gay Report, by Jay and Young, homosexual researchers surveyed the sex habits of homosexuals, Traditional Values reported. The result shows that:

    · 99% had engaged in oral se x
    · 91% had engaged in anal intercourse
    · 83% engaged in rimmi ng (mouth to anu s contact)
    · 22% had fisted their sex partners
    · 23% admitted to golden showers (urinating on a se x partner)
    · 76% admitted to group or public se x
    · 4% admitted ingesting feces
    These behaviors are the seedbed for a whole variety of serious intestinal parasites, viruses, and bacteria known collectively as “Gay Bowel Syndrome.”

    -Dr. Stephen E. Goldstone, the medical director of Gay Health.com says that 68% of HIV-positive and 45% of HIV-negative homosexual men have abnormal or precancerous an/al cells, noted Traditional Values.

    -Medical experts and scientists believe that the increased number of sexually transmitted diseases (STD) cases is the result of an increase in risky sexual practices by a growing number of gay men. One in five gay men were found to have HIV, according to a study released by the CDC in 2010.

    Latest… STDs continue on the increase in San Francisco for the 6th year in a row!
    Reference: Article “California: San Francisco sees Spike in STDs”, from HIV/AIDS Resource for Gay Men website, U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention, February 13, 2012.

    “MSM have higher HIV and other STI rates than do women and heterosexual men”, Reference: Article from HIV/AIDS Resource for Gay Men website, U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention, May 29, 2012.

    “Gay, bisexual, and other men who have se x with men (MSM)1represent approximately 2% of the US population, yet are the population most severely affected by HIV”, Reference, article “ HIV Among Gay and Bisexual Men”, from website HIV/AIDS Resource for Gay Men website, U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention, May 18, 2012.

    “Atlanta researchers found a high rate of HIV in gay male couples who thought both partners were HIV-negative”, Reference, article “Gay couples at Risk”, from website HIV/AIDS Resource for Gay Men website, U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention, November/December 2011.

    There is a lot, lot, and lot more, but as for the result of these previous studies, it is simple.

    Gay men for example, have ana l sex as their main se x act, and the colon is NOT prepare to fight viruses as the vagin a does with all its acidity. Furthermore, the colon is designed by nature to absorb as much material as it can, so when a peni s is introduced in it with all its “wonderful” viruses and bacteria traveling on it, the colon simply does what it does best, it tries to adsorb all of it…. hence the person is more likely to get infections, viruses, cancer causing agents, etc.

    The same with Fella tio, the mouth is the beginning of the digestion process, and gay men and lesbians indulge heavily in it, so the introduction of viruses, germs and cancer causing agents into a person is more likely in these cases.

    Action and consequences… that is what the opposition against homosexuality has always been all about, the bad consequences to the individuals and society.. because yes YOU too are affected, that irresponsible reckless sexual behavior results in diseases being passes around/spread upon the population, increasing the Health Care cost for everyone! …so when your Health Coverage BILL increases come in the mail d-o n-o-t complain… with “acceptance” of homosexuality, you asked for it!

  • Another faux christian that can’t stand the truth. It’s what happens when you can’t back up your fallacy’s and the fact is homosexuality is nothing more than a mental disease according to John Hopkins.

  • Aww what’s the matter the truth bother you? Facts tend to make those like you extremely uncomfortable eh?

  • There are different versions because men tamper with the original scriptures to fit their false doctrines. It’s just that simple. However none can change the fact the Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected and ascended back into heaven with witnesses present. So yes there is ONE version that was translated into many different versions which most are perversions. Do your homework.

  • Christians certainly can discriminate on their religious convictions. So can anyone else.

    SCOTUS showed they are corrupt. There is no basis in the Constitution for homosexual “marriage”. This is why this ruling is bankrupt and not based on the law.

    I know when a person is being discriminated against because of their race. How am I supposed to know when a person is being discriminated because of their sexual preferences since I have no way to see what they are? Why should a person’s sexual preference have anything to do with a business?

    Businesses for decades have always had the right to refuse their services. Do you think a Jewish person should be forced to bake a Nazi cake? Or a homosexual baker to bake a cake that he finds offensive? Should a Muslim be forced to serve pork if he has a deli?

    BTW- we do discriminate because of age in somethings. We don’t let teenagers drink. Children to see certain types of movies and men to stay out of the girls bathrooms and locker rooms.
    We discriminate against smokers because its unhealthy.

    Do you think we should discriminate and warn people about activities that can be harmful to their health?

  • So as to you foolish liberals Ricky can claim superiority through pride and arrogance and when someone points that fact out you then decide the one who objects to a known fallacy is demeaning that foolish person. GOTCHA. So how exactly are you and Ricky going to prove you’re in some way more intelligent than someone else when you have the same problem proving you beliefs are in some way superior than someone you don’t know or ever met? The funny thing here is you liberals can never seem to prove there is no God and no I can’t prove there is a God but then again you’re the one agreeing with foolish and unfounded claims eh?

  • The is no such thing as a homosexual spouse, Christian or any other Christian function. God defined marriage and homosexuality is an abomination that merits death according to both the OT and NT.

    Leviticus 18:22
    Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13
    13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    Romans 1 21-32
    21 Because that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was full of darkness.
    22 When they professed themselves to be wise, they became fools.
    23 For they turned the glory of the incorruptible God to the similitude of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and four footed beasts, and of creeping things.
    24 Wherefore also God gave them up to their hearts lusts, unto uncleanness, to defile their own bodies between themselves:
    25 Which turned the truth of God unto a lie, and worshipped and served the creature, forsaking the Creator which is blessed forever, Amen.
    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Colossians 3:5
    Mortify therefore your members which are on the earth, fornication, uncleanness, the inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness which is idolatry.

    1 Samuel 15: 1 Samuel
    23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and transgression is wickedness and idolatry. Because thou hast cast away the word of the Lord, therefore he hath cast away thee from being king.

    As to the definition of a God ordained marriage….

    Genesis 2: 23 – 25
    23 Then the man said, This now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman, because she was taken out of the man.
    24 Therefore shall man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be one flesh.
    25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and they were not ashamed.

    Matthew 19:4-5
    4. And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning, made them male and female,
    5.And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

    Mark 10:6-7
    6. But at the beginning of the creation God made them male and female:
    7.For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

    Ephesians 5:31
    For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

    1 Corinthians 11:11
    Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

    Leviticus 21:13
    And he shall take a wife in her virginity.

    Proverbs 18:22
    Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.

    Proverbs 19:14
    House and riches are the inheritance of fathers: and a prudent wife is from the LORD.

    1 Cor 7:4-7
    1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me, It were good for a man not to touch a woman.
    2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
    3 Let the husband give unto the wife due benevolence, and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
    4 The wife hath not the power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not the power of his own body, but the wife.

    1 Corinthians 7:10
    And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

    1 Corinthians 7:14
    For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

    1 Corinthians 7:33
    But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

    Ephesians 5:23
    For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

    Ephesians 5:33
    Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

    1 Timothy 3:2
    A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

    1 Timothy 3:12
    Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

    Titus 1:6
    If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

    1 Peter 3:7
    Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

  • I just blocked JP as well. I had to wait until he made a direct reply to me (that seems to be the way this site works) before I could do so. And he finally did, with a predictable degree of snarkiness. In reply to my announcement that I had blocked SL and SFC, he said, “What a hero. That takes a lot of courage.”

    Well, JP, it has nothing to do with courage. It has to do with peace of mind. Trying to deal with folks who come to a comment thread for no other purpose than to attack and berate others is just a waste of time and energy, and it messes with my enjoyment of life. The ones I blocked (including you now) have nothing of value to say to the folks trying to carry on a discussion on this thread, and yet they just kept on talking, beating us over the head with Bible quotes and telling us we are wrong because we don’t agree with them. Who needs that?

    If more folks on this thread would block folks like these, they would probably get tired of not having anyone to attack and just go away. Think about it.

  • So, by you’re definition, no couple raising adopted children can be a “family”, no foster parents & children can be called “family” either. No blood relation there. Really??

  • All things are allowable, all things are lawful, all things are permissible…….1 Corinthians 6:12…….1 Corinthians 10:23

    I think it’ll take some time before LGBT stuff will be seen as fitting into those verses as snug as a bug in a rug.

  • Aaah, JP, there’s your biggest error. The Doctrine of Biblical Inerrancy. You are aware that that is not a historical belief, that it only gained prominence as a central tenet of the Christian faith in the last 50 years. It’s widest acceptance came after the publishing of the “Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy” by a couple of hundred conservative religious leaders in 1978. Before that, it was a minority dogmatic opinion.

  • Why don’t you read Romans 11 where Paul stated that God has not rejected his people and that the gifts and call to the Jews are irrevocable? Paul stated this despite the Jews rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. When Jesus returns, will the Jews accept him. It is sad that not only
    do you agree with the Nazis in being against Gays, you agree with them about the Jews as well. SO SAD. Anyway, I would trust what he
    said over what you say, since he would know Hebrew far better than you would. Actually, the
    word Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 6:9 Arsenokoitus only means anal and not oral sex as well. Porneia or “fornication” first and foremost means worshiping idols. Remember porneia literally means prostitution and idol worship involves “prostituting” oneself after other Gods. Remember our most important marriage is to the LORD- this is far more important than a one man one woman marriage. Indeed, Ahab’s heterosexual marriage to Jezebel led him to break his more important marriage to God in 1 Kings 16:31.

  • Strange, cynically accusing another of being a fake christian. I’m thinking of that famous verse that goes like this —

    You will be judged by the same standard you use to judge others. The standards you use for others will be applied to you………Matthew 7:2

  • ” …once you actually let the Holy Spirit influence your opinion… ”

    I did, and here’s at least two things that were brought to my attention —

    1. The Kingdom of God is not in “word” (scripture verse), but “power” (the Spirit working in all of us especially those that believe)………..it’s not food and drink but “righteousness” (good attitudes, works and deeds) and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit……………..1 Cor 4:20 coupled with Rom 14:17

    2. Here’s something to always remember about what Paul said about his own writings and it probably applies to other scripture as well —
    …our knowledge is partial and incomplete
    …we see things imperfectly…
    …All that I know is partial and incomplete…
    (1 Corinthians 13:9,12)

    Paul is very smart, but he was truthful when he said ‘all that I know is partial and incomplete’.

    With God’s help, we’ll all be able to create new and revive better attitudes to express towards one another that will be ‘greater’ than many of his proclamations.

  • ” …the existence of homosexuality causes no harm whatsoever to anyone… ”
    ” …advocating the full social acceptance of gay people strengthens family bonds…

    Well said.
    And similar verse — Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God…….Romans 15:7

  • Well Sandi, there is much to mourn for in the context of this present world, and the Church has not been immune, not since the beginning. I’m simply going to continue to stand for the truth of God’s Word, and strive to be as cordial as I may be to those with whom I disagree. Nothing happens that is not foreknown by the Father, we must continue to trust that His will is being done. Certainly there are sheep and there are goats in the fold, and the Good Shepherd knows His own. Our prayers must be with all, even those opposed to God, and those also who are deceived, though of course even as we pray for the souls of those actively opposed to the teachings of the Bible, we must naturally also pray that their active acts in opposition will be hindered by the Holy Spirit. God Bless.

  • These people aren’t learners. They are using the same old tactics they always used in the past – shame and punishment. They have no idea the world is really waking up, because they are still asleep. Belief orientation wastes minds and lives. They believe everyone really believes as they do. It is a trick of the feeble mind (projective agency) and a lack of consciousness.

  • Either your Bible or your interpretation sucks. Actually both. For loves sake, get a reason oriented sacred text and a compassionate interpretation.

  • Immorality is being Christian no matter how mean it is. Sexual immorality is mean christians having babies.

  • Clear witness of History and in the continuously inconsistent scriptures? The blinders of a true believer are black. Zombie man. The definition of History does not include clear. And it is obvious that scripture is anything but. Evidence: Denominations, Religions, Versions, Interpretations, Wars. Have you ever looked at the bubble you live in? Every Muslim sees what you don’t want. Every Hindu sees what you can not. Every atheist knows you are almost identical

  • Homosexuality is not a sin. Poor thinking and lack of compassion is a sin. Saul was a nimrod like anyone that listened to Paul. Spaul said it was only less immoral to take a wife.

  • You are the apostate. Throw it off and get your humanity on. Inherent worth and dignity belongs to all your brothers and sisters.

  • Please learn to think. Then read the Bible and its thousands of versions and the Quran and the Sutras and the Mahabharata and the Aveda Vedanta, etc and so on. Your killing people. OMG google it already.

  • Men wrote the whole thing to help give them authority over others and because they didn’t know any better.

  • Sandi, It doesn’t. Please, you haven’t studied this issue. Come back when you have learned a thing or two.

  • Too bad the imminent, omniscient, omnipotent, eternal Word couldn’t explain itself any better than it has.

  • According to Neil DeGrasse Tyson, only 15% of the top Scientists still maintain a belief oriented Religion and it depends on what Religion they were born in. Another study shows 8%.

  • You can repeat something as much as you like, but it doesn’t actually make it more true. Did you know that? i bet if you asked one of these smart and informed folks some questions they could reveal many interesting things to you that would also make you smarter.

  • 1 Corinthians 13:9,12 is my favorite Pauline quote, Billysees. He sets an excellent example for his readers, reminding them that honest humility and plain admission of one’s limits are praiseworthy virtues, not condemnable vices — or “weaknesses”, as is so often opined these days by political and other leaders, and so vainly practiced by their devoutly misled followers.

  • Sandi, it seems that you have been taken by a demon haunted world. Check out Carl Sagan’s baloney detector for a new and more abundant life.

  • Lesbians have far lower rates of sexually transmitted diseases than do heterosexuals. I have no Venereal diseases nor HIV and I am a Gay man who has not been completely celibate for close to 30 years. In fact, my health is much better than it has been in years. I have maintained a 100 pound weight loss for over 6 years now. Oral sex transmits diseases far less than either vaginal or anal sex- anal the most. So, there is SOME rhyme and reason for the Bible to ban Anal sex but not Oral sex. Remember there were no condoms or lubricants in that day and age. With the proper precautions, Anal sex can be done safely.

  • I won’t question the sincerity with which you pursued your research, but what you found (based on what you are espousing in your comments) is considered by most reasonable and educated people to be the stuff of conspiracy theory. So, yes, some of us are offended when we are trying to engage in a serious discussion about an issue that is causing much pain in our denomination and someone from the outside comes along and dumps a big steaming pile of conspiracy nonsense in front of us and tells us he has all the answers. I daresay no right-thinking, well-informed, post-Enlightenment person who hasn’t been raised on tinfoil hats and krazy koolaid is the least bit interested in hearing about the alleged “New World Order” and Alice Bailey when we have real people with real problems looking for real answers.

    I’m sure your intentions are good, but your methods are counter-productive.

  • I wouldn’t say that they are not learners, rather that it is inconceivable to them that people might see different issues differently than they do. Especially issues Where they believe God has spoken to them in terms that they not only believe, but I understand.

  • Your statements regarding health issues among gay people are irrelevant.

    If you had lived prior to the advent of modern medical science, then I assume you would have wanted to abolish heterosexuality because it was so unhealthy. Or, maybe cars and trucks should be banned because about 35,000 people are killed in the US each year.

    If you really wanted to make an impact on a major health issue, you should be campaigning to reverse the obesity epidemic in the US that has been spiraling out of control for years causing a number of serious chronic health consequences, and increasing health insurance costs for everyone.

    And, if you are so concerned about STDs among gay people, you should be doing everything you can to encourage safer sex, and more same-sex marriage.

  • What Sandi does takes smugness, smarm and bile all rolled into one holier-than-thou obnoxious, toxic ‘witness for Christ’.

  • Said // Christians certainly can discriminate on their religious convictions. So can anyone else. //

    But is that the way of Jesus? (I’m pretty sure Jesus said the opposite.)

    // SCOTUS showed they are corrupt. //

    LOL! Yeah, sure.

    // There is no basis in the Constitution for homosexual “marriage”. //

    If that’s your argument, then I have to ask: Where is the basis in the Constitution for heterosexual “marriage”?

    // This is why this ruling is bankrupt and not based on the law. //

    Five out of nine Jurists disagree.

    // I know when a person is being discriminated against because of their race. How am I supposed to know when a person is being discriminated because of their sexual preferences since I have no way to see what they are? //

    That’s easy: If you refuse to provide your business’ services to someone because you claim they are gay, then YOU have decided they are gay (whether they are or not).

    // Why should a person’s sexual preference have anything to do with a business? //

    BINGO! My point exactly.

    // Businesses for decades have always had the right to refuse their services. Do you think a Jewish person should be forced to bake a Nazi cake? Or a homosexual baker to bake a cake that he finds offensive? Should a Muslim be forced to serve pork if he has a deli? //

    Excellent point! As I understand, generally speaking businesses do have the right to discriminate, with one caveat: They must apply that discrimination to all patrons equally. For example, “No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service” signs are perfectly allowable forms of discrimination, as long as businesses apply it to all patrons equally. So let’s apply that general rule to your examples:

    “Should a Muslim be forced to serve pork if he has a deli?” It’s the business owner’s prerogative to decide the types of products he will or won’t offer. If he chooses to not serve pork products, even for religious reasons, then he’s applying that to all patrons equally. So he’s well within his rights to not serve pork.

    “Do you think a Jewish person should be forced to bake a Nazi cake? Or a homosexual baker to bake a cake that he finds offensive?” The courts already ruled on those questions: “A Colorado baker that found herself ensnared in controversy after refusing to prepare cakes decorated with anti-gay messages can now breathe deeply. The [court’s] decision noted that […] her refusal to complete the customer’s requests was based on ‘derogatory language and imagery’ rather than their religious nature.”
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/06/azucar-bakery-anti-gay-message_n_7011202.html

    // BTW- we do discriminate because of age in somethings. We don’t let teenagers drink. Children to see certain types of movies and men to stay out of the girls bathrooms and locker rooms. //

    Agreed. (And for good reason, true?)

    // We discriminate against smokers because its unhealthy. //

    Unhealthy? Yep. Discriminate against smokers? How so?

    // Do you think we should discriminate and warn people about activities that can be harmful to their health? //

    Warn them? Sure. Discriminate against them? No. (Though there may be exceptions.)

  • These self-righteous people who use Jesus as a straw salesman for their wares are not worthy of Christ or his salvation! Sandi Luckins is a shining example!

  • Other Christian churches are full of “Sandis” and they usually peter out as time goes on, or are totally ignored. I pray for a true schism of the UMC and the WCA! Oil and bad water do not mix well!

  • You just shot down the essence of Christ… compassion. You need to leave the Christian denominations alone and altogether!

  • Not to mention that the ROOTS of Biblical stories/books descended from 500+ years of oral history! And that, of course, could never be subject to question, eh? Snark/off.

  • I would love to see Sandi in a beginning Bible History class… would she be apoplectic! She’d better have a goodly supply of Depends with her!

  • That is totally FALSE! There are so many anomalies in the Bible, one being two versions of the Easter story and THREE different variations of the Nativity story. You have NO cognizant knowledge of anything Biblical!

  • Dont’ mix two ideas together, one of which is totally wrong. You do yourself no favors regarding you lack of logic.

  • You sanctimonious dolt! CookingWithoutKale just backhanded you with an insult and it went right over your indented little Barbie head! Swift! Unnnngh!

  • If you lived your life as well as you copy/paste, you wouldn’t even be present on this blog. Go and sin no more, hypocrite!

  • You really are enamored by your own mindless gibberish, aren’t you? Normal intelligent Christian people are not!

  • They are tying to follow biblical instruction. It is wrong to have practicing homosexuals, adulterers, transsexuals, and philanderers in the church. The apostle Paul instructed the church to excommunicate them and allow the back only upon repentance. This was do be done for the good of the church, not to hurt those that were forced out. He made the distinction of the world and the church and taught the church member to deal honorably, kindly and humbly with those in the world, including those that were removed from the church.

  • Leviticus teaches that prostitution is a sin, but NOT homosexuality! Homosexuality was not even heard of in Old Testament times, but you KNEW that, didn’t you? Your verbal vomit is almost too much to take, but we WILL continue to shovel it back ON you!

  • He did say the law was good. It was written for man to live a good life, and the law definitely banned homosexuality.

  • Scripture defines homosexuality as sexual immorality. Of course it only does so specifically for men not for women.

  • No Leviticus teaches that homosexuality is a sin. “You shall not sleep with a man as with a woman – it is an abomination”

  • No penalty does not mean it was not considered wrong. All sex outside of marriage was considered wrong, but some were punished others were not, much like today.

  • Sandi, I am an ordained Christian minister (formerly Baptist) and we had a way of ‘taking care’ of troublemakers by transferring them to conservative churches ‘down the road.’ No one loves Jesus and his Word more, but we do NOT put up with your fundamentalist BS! ‘Nuff said! Now go and sin (lack of humility) no more!

  • CookingWithoutKale Sandi Luckins • 2 days ago
    A great response by Richard is as usual followed by a demeaning reply by Sandi that has no substance.”

    Believe me, if you are blessed, it is only by the grace of God, and has nothing to do with me OR Cooking!!!

  • I don’t think you realize the difference between a compliment and a slap in the face! The Lord is not praised by your total lack of coherence or intellect.

  • And shellfish. And wool and cotton blends. Have you checked you shirt labels lately? And when was the last time you stoned a kid for disobedience? Do you pack your wife away for an week during her cycle? Where are your standards for morality if you are eating shrimp? Do you really honestly think Peters dream about kosher in the book of Acts ONLY applies to what’s for dinner? That, my friend, is God saying “I created it ALL good.” Do you REALLY think social and intellectual contexts never change in the course of three millennia, or do you just want excuses to feel superior to gay people? Jews of Jesus’ day felt they were spiritually superior to Samaritans. Gay hating Christians remind me of them. And yet, who did Jesus choose for the very first spiritual retreat? Samaritans, whom the Jews hated. I know I might as well be saying this to a Bic pen. So, go ahead and continue to be disobedient to God’s word when it comes to love and inclusion. God leaves nobody behind. God leaves nobody out. The end. Leaving this conversation.

  • Doing what you THINK Jesus told you… that does not include arguing and insulting people by being arrogant.

  • This fundie Barbie has no idea what the Bible says. Many theological giants and their commentaries prove Sandi wrong in every aspect she argues. She is unteachable.

  • Adulterers and philanderers? Just about everyone who is divorced, then, because unless it was for adultery, its a sin. Transsexuals? Well, I guess you just made that one up.
    as always. All of us are sinners. Only some of us are throwing stones.

  • And time for the fundamentalist Barbie/Ken brains to move on to their new church setting. Leave God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit alone and quit badgering the Trinity!

  • As a former Methodist, I never realized there were so many right wing extremist christians in that church. I would say the best thing would be for a total split between the Christian (UMC) and the newly split Ken/Barbie christians! Oy veh! Such right wing extremist garbage!

  • That’s not the case in Christ-loving churches. As a Mennonite, we have an open GLBT-supportive church since 1990 and have grown every year since. Younger people from other hateful congregations have joined us, as well as parents and relatives of GLBT-despising churches. We are grateful to the fundamentalist hate groups for their former members who have found love, acceptance, and healing in our midst. I am proud to be a former Baptist minister who saw the light and joined the Mennonite USA denomination upon retirement!

  • Daniel, what you are not understanding….sex between men is a sin. Sex between women is a sin. I gave you the scripture in Romans.
    Revelation 22:14 reinforces 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.

    Revelation 2:20 International Standard Version (ISV)
    20 But I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet and who teaches and leads my servants to practice immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols

    Galatians 1:8-11 – 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
    10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant[b] of Christ.”
    That states the penalty for not teaching what the Lord has taught.
    Homosexuality is a sin. You can try to talk around everything, but, if you have to search for an answer for everything, rather than looking at the truth of the statements, then perhaps you are being fooled and fooling yourself – and hurting yourself.
    Christ has been clear. Homosexuality is a sin.

  • THANK you! See my comments two comments above. GMMelby, M.Div. Pastor/Chaplain (Ret. but still active!).

  • Your right, it isn’t. It also has nothing to do with Leviticus and the chapter on sexual immorality – Chapter 18.

  • Then how do you explain the Lord calling homosexuality “dishonourable passions” “giving up what is natural” “shameless acts” “error”?

  • Another yet another fact I have to point outi is that 5 of the 7,2 billion on our planet are NOT Christians. And 66% of Americans believe Noah built an aircraft carrier/cargo ship and lived to be 600. So they claim rational thought? Good God (no pun intended) I am grateful 25% of Americans don’t buy into this fantasy fear driven drivel. And we know that number is rising.

  • Inherent worth and dignity do not always equate with membership in the church. By New Testament theology there is a clear difference between the world and the church, but you treat both with love(philos, not eros) and humility, but you separate yourself from sin as much as possible within the church so that you live your life as god has advised. It is why unrepentant adulterers are to be excluded as well.

  • Daniel, how do you explain away that the Lord could not find one righteous person – aside from Lot – in Sodom and Gomorrah?

  • Christ did throw the merchants out the temple. Clearly compassion and love were his main themes. But the church was to remain pure as well. I for one have no problems with civil homosexual marriages, but the church is to follow God’s law.

  • Not all the word in the Bible were said by God, only those said by Jesus. However, having said that, the Christian church teaches that the bible is inspired by God and that books out side of it, while may contain good teachings are not.

  • Inerrant theologically, not necessarily scientifically. It does use metaphors, and parables to great effect. Sexual immorality is a theological concept.

  • The profession of faith by the Methodist Church holds biblical theological teaching as inerrant. If that is part of the protestation of faith of the Methodist Church. Unrepentant sexual immorality is unacceptable and the transgender, adulterers, and homosexuals should be exclude until they repent. It is part of the bylaws of the church which they are not currently living up to.

  • Faith is in Sandi’s head. God either exist or he doesn’t. If he exists faith is very important. If he does not it does not matter one way or the other. Sandi is taking the logical safe route of faith.

  • I read this whole thread up to now. And increasingly I understand why so many people, young adults mostly but including others too, are dechurching and moving away from organized religion. According to the latest survey from PRRI, the proportion of religiously unaffiliated adults aged 18 through 29 has now reached 39 percent. Something to think about.

  • I do not read Aramaic or Classical Greek, so I have never read the bible, just translations. You miss things like turned to a pillar of salt is a figure of speech in
    Aramaic which means to fall over dead like having a massive stroke or embolism or that the Eye of the Needle is a small man sized gate it is possible to get a camel through, but very very hard. That does not mean that there are not clear instruction against sexual activity outside the marriage of a man and a woman. I have read the Quran and the Sutra’s and they are even more emphatic on the issue. I have read the works of the ten Sihk Gurus. who really do not comment on it but take marriage between men and women for granted. I have not read much on other religions.

  • That’s the problem with secessionists – they never really ‘go away’.

    Re: “peter out”

    Aw heck, peter out, peter in … I shouldn’t have to (and don’t want to) keep track of other people’s sex lives.;{O)

  • Languages change, and people no longer read ancient Aramaic or classical Greek. Nothing written in another language can be translated exactly. Even the best of the translations is not exact. What we of the Church, and the Methodist Church in particular profess is the translations are accurate enough to translate the important theology inerrantly.

  • Christ did say He came to CAUSE division (or words to that effect). So,I’m not surprised at all that they cling to what they’ve always been taught, subsequent ‘revelations’ (you should pardon the pun) be damned.

  • Excellent advice. It sure beats having to take some aspirin, and takes a lot less time to reap the healing benefits. Plus saves a lot of time reading incessant sanctimony. Thanks for the tip.

  • Why settle for only a couple when you could read them all?

    I’ve blocked her so I can no longer see her stuff, anyway, but if you haven’t blocked her, you can read them in all their sanctimonious glory.

  • According to one self-admitted anti-gay activist researcher. And, the words “mental disease” don’t appear in the report.

    I’m sure you meant Johns Hopkins

  • You DO realize that Paul was quoting a “false liberty” argument in the process of refuting it, don’t you?

  • Why do those like you always tell that obvious lie when the bible addresses homosexuality as a sin and a sin worthy of death, And please don’t use that “homosexuality” isn’t found in the bible. Just because the word homosexual isn’t found and in fact is a recently created word doen’t mean there aren’t synonyms that mean the exact same thing and the fact is Romans 1 : 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. But just the same I’ll post many SCRIPTURES that in fact CONDEMN homosexuality….

    1 Cor 6:9-11 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor wantons, nor buggerers, (http://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/diction.htm)
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified, in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    Gal 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
    19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    1 Timothy 1:9-11
    9 Knowing this, that the Law is not given unto a righteous man, but unto the lawless and disobedient, to the ungodly, and to sinners, to the unholy, and to the profane, to murderers of fathers and mothers, to manslayers,
    10 To whoremongers, to buggerers (http://rictornorton.co.uk/eighteen/diction.htm), to menstealers, to liars, to the perjured, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to wholesome doctrine,
    11 Which is according to the glorious Gospel of the blessed God, which is committed unto me.

    Romans 1 21-32
    21 Because that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was full of darkness.
    22 When they professed themselves to be wise, they became fools.
    23 For they turned the glory of the incorruptible God to the similitude of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and four footed beasts, and of creeping things.
    24 Wherefore also God gave them up to their hearts lusts, unto uncleanness, to defile their own bodies between themselves:
    25 Which turned the truth of God unto a lie, and worshipped and served the creature, forsaking the Creator which is blessed forever, Amen.
    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Colossians 3:5
    Mortify therefore your members which are on the earth, fornication, uncleanness, the inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness which is idolatry.

    1 Samuel 15: 1 Samuel
    23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and transgression is wickedness and idolatry. Because thou hast cast away the word of the Lord, therefore he hath cast away thee from being king.

    BTW all sexual sin is in fact idolatry.

  • 2 Tim 3:

    16 For the whole Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable to teach, to convince, to correct, and to instruct in righteousness,
    17 That the man of God may be absolute, being made perfect unto all good works.

    So if all scripture is given by God’s inspiration then it is in fact God’s word. Or perhaps you think God is incapable of preserving His perfect word?

  • Perhaps you can show us where in the original languages the bible was recorded where exactly these errors you think exist?

  • When are you going to back up your foolish claims knowing the dead sea scrolls are 1500 years old and what we have is what they say?

  • Yes I agree the original scripture are inerrant and what we have are translations and yes God is more the capable of preserving His word despite mens butchering it to say things like “homosexuality” is not sin but knowing God has persevered His word makes those butchers lies and deceivers.

  • Making erroneous claims is easy but backing them up is a whole different problem for you eh?

  • Obviously you’re clueless that the covenant you’re quoting is an expired covenant given to the JEWS and we are under a new and more perfect covenant through Jesus Christ call the NEW TESTAMENT by the TESTATOR Jesus Christ.

  • Actually it does but those like you don’t have the comprehension skills to understand what you’re reading. The Holy Spirit is the key you LACK.

  • I’ll remind you there are no HOMOSEXUAL Christians according to God’s word and anyone that teaches such a thing is a heretic. BTW the bible states quite clearly that only a remnant of Jews will be saved.

  • Perhaps you should study God’s word before you make a fool of yourself teaching another gospel?

    Leviticus 18:22
    Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13
    13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    1 Corinthians 7:2
    Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

    1 Corinthians 11:3
    But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

    1 Corinthians 11:7
    For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

    1 Corinthians 11:9
    Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

    1 Corinthians 11:11
    Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

    Romans 1 21-32
    21 Because that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was full of darkness.
    22 When they professed themselves to be wise, they became fools.
    23 For they turned the glory of the incorruptible God to the similitude of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and four footed beasts, and of creeping things.
    24 Wherefore also God gave them up to their hearts lusts, unto uncleanness, to defile their own bodies between themselves:
    25 Which turned the truth of God unto a lie, and worshipped and served the creature, forsaking the Creator which is blessed forever, Amen.
    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Colossians 3:5
    Mortify therefore your members which are on the earth, fornication, uncleanness, the inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness which is idolatry.

    1 Samuel 15: 1 Samuel
    23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and transgression is wickedness and idolatry. Because thou hast cast away the word of the Lord, therefore he hath cast away thee from being king.

    As you can see there s only one God ordained MARRIAGE and homosexuality is condemned and deserves the death penalty. Funny how the death penalty n the bible involves sexual sins such as rape, homosexuality, adultery and only one doesn’t murder.

  • George stop explaining logic and reason to people who believe in talking snakes and world wide floods that never happened. You cannot have a intelligent discussion with an individual who believes in faeries, unicorns, leprechauns, goblins, witches, and the theory of Atlantis. To them everything is perfect and their Imaginary Friend in the Sky made it that way…period. Just let it go, let them believe that nonsense, move on.

  • The burden of proof is on you so please back up your big mouth and prove there wasn’t a talking SERPENT. At least get your facts in order. You’re correct YOU can not have an intelligent conversation because of your obvious arrogant pride.

  • Faithful, committed Christians have always disagreed about precisely what it means to say that the Bible is “inspired by God.” And many reject the idea that it means any kind of dictation or other method that would overwhelm the free will of the humans doing the writing or that would support a claim of infallibility.

  • BTW there is historical proof that a flood happened knowing sea shells can be found on some mountains and Mt Saint Helen’s where a new multi-level strata was laid in just a few hours. So again the burden of proof on your idiotic claims are on you. At least educate yourself on facts ….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flrhqjN5BHo

  • Romans 1:26 – For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;

  • Perhaps you don’t know, Bill, that at the time this verse was written, only the Hebrew Bible (what Christians call the Old Testament) was considered “scripture.” It was Jesus’ Bible. It was Paul’s Bible. It was the Bible of all the Apostles. The gospels and many other NT books hadn’t even been written yet.

    And here’s a thought. Why would God even want to produce or preserve “His perfect word”? Doesn’t that defeat the whole purpose of faith?

  • Yeah it’s funny that you mentions inventions of men but the fact is the bible is God ordained and those like you just cast doubt because you’re weak in the faith.

  • How is it counter productive standing on the bible that their CHURCH is supposedly based on? The fact is there was a schism in that church long before the homosexual sin problem.

  • From what I have seen, his intent is to hurt those who don’t know the truth.

    “Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” Titus 1:15&16.

  • Yes. I seem to remember their previous argument was about whether it was ok for a Christian to own other people. But that was well before they got united.

  • Yes. the bible does indeed say women should not speak up in church or have authority over men. Tough to reconcile that with being truly Christian.
    But then, its tough to reconcile being a Christian with being a Christian.

  • There is no reason for a person to “own” another person in today’s world and just because it happens doesn’t make it right.

  • I agree and I’ve noticed there are a lot of anti-Christian and faux christian bully’s on this site.

  • nods
    “Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.”

    – John 15:20

  • It’s funny, Bill, but I don’t see where I “mentions [sic] inventions of men.” And how on Earth am I “cast[ing] doubt”? And how am I “weak in the faith”? It seems to me that it takes much more faith to believe in God and follow Christ than it does to believe in a magic answer book. I put my faith in the Living God, whose Word cannot be contained in the pages of a book.

  • I didn’t think you would admit to your anti-Christian posts……thanks for proving me correct. BTW faith comes by hearing and that is HEARING the WORD of GOD. See if you can figure out where it states that truth in the bible the book you disrespect calling it a “magic book”. Perhaps you should study it to know God’s truth something that seem to be foreign to you.

  • I have no problem agreeing that the Bible speaks against gays, just as it supports the subjugation of women, endorses slavery, and a host of other retrograde things. It’s a 2,000 year-old book for crying out loud. That’s what people believed back then. The idiotic thing is using a 2,000 year-old book in modern society. We wouldn’t use a 2,000 year-old medical or science book in today’s world. We’ve learned a lot since the Bible was written. If a religion wants to become irrelevant by holding on to a 2,000 year-old book, that’s their choice. As science and knowledge advances, religion drops by the wayside, which is a good thing imo.

  • Obviously you have no idea what you’re talking about because you proved that by using a expired covenant to justify your foolishness. Yes you proved your whole assumption is based on ignorance and lack of integrity on your part.

  • OK, let’s add “Bill” Somebody (don’t know his last name) to the list. I have now blocked 4 people on this thread, not because they disagree with me but because they were obnoxious and overbearing in trying to ram their fundamentalist beliefs down my throats–and the throats of others. They offered no reasoned arguments; they just quoted Bible verses about which they claimed infallible understanding, in several cases going so far as to claim to speak for God through her comments.

    I highly recommend it. And don’t wait as long as I did.

  • Here;s a actual education for the ignorant like you………..It is about Actions and Consequences, which then determines if a person’s actions (behavior in particular) are correct or incorrect… the results of the behavior.

    And homosexuality time and time again proves to be a highly detrimental behavior, which needs to be corrected, not glamorized nor rights given to it.

    Here are just a few examples of the detrimental results of the homosexual behavior.

    – Dr. Selma Dritz in the New England Journal of Medicine: “Oral and ana l inter course present physicians with surgical as well as medical problems, ranging from ana l fissures and impaction of foreign bodies in the rectum to major diagnostic dilemmas.”
    * Reference: Dritz SK. “Medical Aspects of Homosexuality.” The New England Journal of Medicine, 1980; Vol. 302 No. 8 (463-464).

    – “Study: Gay Men Are Twice as Likely to Have Cancer”, Yahoo story, By MEREDITH MELNICK Meredith Melnick– Tue May 10, 10:05 pm ET

    – Lesbian sex is linked to higher risks of bacterial vaginosis, HPV specifically genital warts—squamous intraepithelial lesions, trichomoniasis, syphilis, and Herpes simplex virus (HSV), and cervical cancer even among women who have had no prior sex with men. In addition, women who have sex with women have a higher risk of HIV/Aids due to the fact that many of identified lesbians have had sex with bisexual men much more so than a hetero woman has. Transmission also occurs through vaginal and cervical secretions between lesbian women.

    * Reference: Women Who Have Se x with Women (WSW), Centers for Disease Control, 2006 (MMWR August 4, 2006 / Vol. 55 / No. RR–11). Retrieved on January 9, 2009.
    – Frenkl, Tara Lee, Potts, Jeannette (February 2008). “Sexually Transmitted Infections”, Urologic Clinics of North America, 35 (1) p. 33–46.

    – In The Gay Report, by Jay and Young, homosexual researchers surveyed the sex habits of homosexuals, Traditional Values reported. The result shows that:

    · 99% had engaged in oral se x
    · 91% had engaged in anal intercourse
    · 83% engaged in rimmi ng (mouth to anu s contact)
    · 22% had fisted their sex partners
    · 23% admitted to golden showers (urinating on a se x partner)
    · 76% admitted to group or public se x
    · 4% admitted ingesting feces
    These behaviors are the seedbed for a whole variety of serious intestinal parasites, viruses, and bacteria known collectively as “Gay Bowel Syndrome.”

    -Dr. Stephen E. Goldstone, the medical director of Gay Health.com says that 68% of HIV-positive and 45% of HIV-negative homosexual men have abnormal or precancerous an/al cells, noted Traditional Values.

    -Medical experts and scientists believe that the increased number of sexually transmitted diseases (STD) cases is the result of an increase in risky sexual practices by a growing number of gay men. One in five gay men were found to have HIV, according to a study released by the CDC in 2010.

    Latest… STDs continue on the increase in San Francisco for the 6th year in a row!
    Reference: Article “California: San Francisco sees Spike in STDs”, from HIV/AIDS Resource for Gay Men website, U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention, February 13, 2012.

    “MSM have higher HIV and other STI rates than do women and heterosexual men”, Reference: Article from HIV/AIDS Resource for Gay Men website, U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention, May 29, 2012.

    “Gay, bisexual, and other men who have se x with men (MSM)1represent approximately 2% of the US population, yet are the population most severely affected by HIV”, Reference, article “ HIV Among Gay and Bisexual Men”, from website HIV/AIDS Resource for Gay Men website, U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention, May 18, 2012.

    “Atlanta researchers found a high rate of HIV in gay male couples who thought both partners were HIV-negative”, Reference, article “Gay couples at Risk”, from website HIV/AIDS Resource for Gay Men website, U.S. Center for Disease Control and Prevention, November/December 2011.

    There is a lot, lot, and lot more, but as for the result of these previous studies, it is simple.

    Gay men for example, have ana l sex as their main se x act, and the colon is NOT prepare to fight viruses as the vagin a does with all its acidity. Furthermore, the colon is designed by nature to absorb as much material as it can, so when a peni s is introduced in it with all its “wonderful” viruses and bacteria traveling on it, the colon simply does what it does best, it tries to adsorb all of it…. hence the person is more likely to get infections, viruses, cancer causing agents, etc.

    The same with Fella tio, the mouth is the beginning of the digestion process, and gay men and lesbians indulge heavily in it, so the introduction of viruses, germs and cancer causing agents into a person is more likely in these cases.

    Action and consequences… that is what the opposition against homosexuality has always been all about, the bad consequences to the individuals and society.. because yes YOU too are affected, that irresponsible reckless sexual behavior results in diseases being passes around/spread upon the population, increasing the Health Care cost for everyone! …so when your Health Coverage BILL increases come in the mail d-o n-o-t complain… with “acceptance” of homosexuality, you asked for it!

  • I don’t question the sincerity of your beliefs Hobbes. I recognized your name here as a middle aged South Aftican woman who has posted much I can agree with in the past.

    You have commented on the topic of humanity sexuality and same sex marriage before, and my research shows you are not a “single issue crazy person”

    I particularly like the fact that you have referred people to the words of Jesus before, as recorded in the Gospel of John (a new commandment I have given you… Love one another just as I have loved you)

    What I challenge is that the love for others seems to have limits.

    I’m gay, married and have been completely gay all my life (that I recall any sexual attraction, since my pre-teen years)

    Jesus made comments about marriage being for one man and one woman, but there was no discussion of how someone like me should live. I believe, from what he did say, that my consenting, loving, committed relationship would not be criticized by Jesus of Nazareth if he were here as man today.

    Yes, wake up church! Wake up to the reality that humans are not all born straight, and that people like me sometimes meet and fall for each other. We need the companionship that my happily married parents have, even though we cannot biologically reproduce together (I have straight married friends who can’t create a baby too, but they have been married happily for years as well)

    Thankfully my Methodist friends (real life, not just on-line) follow the words which John recorded were said by Jesus. They all came to our wedding and they continue to treat my spouse and I as any married couple, including us in their activities, church related and other.

    If the WCA and wider UMC shuns the right and inclusive way forwards that won’t change anything. It’ll delay change but it won’t stop it.

    Even if the UMC breaks apart (schism). Those who block change now will have offspring who are not all straight. That’s going to happen; guaranteed. They’ll be in the new church, and the desire for change will still be there and it won’t go away.

    It’s not a gay or LGBTQ “agenda” at all. It’s just there and it isn’t wrong, because it isn’t a sin, and it doesn’t do harm.

    Recognising this will be seen, a hundred years from now, as an act of love like the decision to ordain women, and black people. It’s not about liberalism, it’s just about doing the right thing by children of glory, which we all are. Peace to you.

  • So true Katie. And we see the “usual crowd” with their usual responses to the words you used. Thank you.

  • IF our salvation was dependent on being heterosexual, then why did Paul state in Ephesians 2:8-9 “For grace you have been saved through faith, it is not from works, so no one may boast. For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them?” And you might say the “good works” entails being heterosexually married, but NO, Paul stated in Galatians 5:3-6 that “Once again I declare to every man who has himself circumcised that he is bound to observe the entire law. You are separated from Christ, YOU ARE TRYING TO BE JUSTIFIED BY LAW, you have fallen from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we await the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but ONLY faith working THROUGH LOVE.” So saying we are justified by being heterosexual and that our salvation is dependent us being heterosexual (not a work we can boast of!!) and not because of our faith working through love by the Grace of God IS preaching a completely different Gospel. Love is also a far more important work that results from faith than is Heterosexual marriage. Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 6:17 that we are to cleave to the LORD in response to sexual immorality (sex mixed with idol worship), he didn’t say THE norm is heterosexual marriage. The community is far more important to Paul than is heterosexual marriage. The body of Christ is more important than the marriage body. That is why Paul was so lukewarm about Heterosexual marriage in 1 Corinthians 7.

  • And also, Paul stated in Romans 11:26-29, “And thus ALL Israel will be saved, as it is written;
    The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob; and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

    In respect to the Gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs. For the gifts and call of God are IRREVOCABLE.” Irrevocable in Greek is αμεταμελητα (ametameleta) which means unregretted, not repented of. The Jews are still God’s chosen people. Christians are similarly “chosen” through faith and God does not regret us as God’s children just because we are gay.

  • Ezekiel 16:49-50- “And look at the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters were proud, sated with food, complacent in their prosperity, and they gave no help to the poor and needy. Rather, they became haughty and committed abominable crimes in my presence; then as you have seen, I removed them.” They were not considered righteous because of not taking care of the poor and needy. You might say the “abominable crimes” was the scene where they asked for the ANGELS to know them. Two ways (possibly more) this can be understood. If you understand it in light of Judges 19, they were trying to rape the guests. Certainly, rape is also condemned when it is heterosexual. Another way to understand this is that they were trying to sexually cross the boundary between people and angels, which is also wrong if it is heterosexual. This would be the understanding of Jude 7 as well as 2 Peter 2:4-6. Both of these texts allude to the book of Enoch which states that the angels in Genesis 6:1-4 committed a great *heterosexual* sin by having children with the daughters of man. Jude 6 refers to these angels being in chains because they “did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling.” This means as angels, they shouldn’t have had heterosexual sex with human women, even though it was within marriage. You can look at 1 Enoch here. http://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-7-sect-ii/, http://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-7-sect-ii/, http://book-ofenoch.com/chapter-12-sect-iii/ This last link states,

    . Then the Lord said to me: Enoch, scribe of righteousness, go tell the Watchers of heaven, who have deserted the lofty sky, and their holy everlasting station, who have been polluted with women.

    6. And have done as the sons of men do, by taking to themselves wives, and who have been greatly corrupted on the earth;

    Notice, just because they *married* the women didn’t make what they did right- it still was polluting.

    So, the sin of Sodom according to Jude 7 is that they crossed the boundary between people and angels, this would have been wrong whether it was homosexual or heterosexual. Jude 7 states that Sodom went after σαρκος ετερας (sarkos heteras) which means a DIFFERENT or OTHER kind of flesh. Indeed heteras is one root of heterosexual. But in this case it means that angels have a different kind of flesh. Remember the guests in Sodom were angels.

  • This is getting interesting. It seems that one or more of the 4 people I have blocked are replying to my post about blocking them. I can’t see what they have written (which is the point, of course), so they’re wasting their time even more than they were before AND having no effect on me whatsoever. This is great! Why didn’t I do this sooner?

  • The book of Enoch is not scripture.
    The men wanted “to know” the men. The term was used with Adam and Eve. Are you also suggesting that Adam wanted to rape Eve? Of course not. It is used in the same manner in Genesis. The men wanted to have intimate sex with the angels. You have no case.

    Ezekiel 16:49-50English Standard Version (ESV)
    49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.
    Ezekiel – they were not taking care of the poor and needy. If people didn’t want to sleep with them, they raped them. They were haughty – expected strangers to have immoral sex with them. They did an abomination – same word used in Leviticus. How much clearer do you need it.
    You are teaching in a church a book that is non scriptural, as if it were to justify sin? What are you doing, my friend?

  • Jude and 2 Peter both allude to book of Enoch in talking about the fallen angels. Most scholars say Jude, 1 Peter and 2 Peter allude to 1 Enoch. Are you saying the historical context of Scripture doesn’t matter? I don’t try to justify rape, or anything that is actually sinful- that is, an act which harms someone else. Where I disagree with you is that you think their sin is having a homosexual orientation and not rape. No thinking gay person would say rape is justified. And anyway, many otherwise heterosexual men rape other men in prison. It isn’t just persons with a homosexual orientation who rape other men.

  • Doesn’t matter. The book of Enoch is not considered scripture.
    Their original sin was they wanted to have intimate sex with the men. They exacerbated the problem by then trying to get into the house to rape them. This is what I keep telling you.

  • Also, Gibeah’s original crime was they wanted “to know” the men and then settled for heterosexual crimes. You seem to only see what you want, Daniel, rather than the full picture, my friend.

  • You are also missing the obvious. Lot, who offered his daughters to terrible people, was still seen as righteous. Why do you think none of the other people were not seen as righteous? Homosexuality and other sins.
    Jude puts it succinctly – Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire” Another example of how Christ is not going to allow these people to go to Heaven and, how homosexuality is a sin.

  • They probably intended to rape the men in the first place. Like I said, this often goes on in prisons. And it doesn’t necessarily mean they were gay. Also the “choice” you see in Romans 1 could be the “choice” of otherwise heterosexual men to engage in homosexual behavior. Invading armies will often engage in behavior like this. To me, you are actually the one who sees what you want to see. You use scripture to justify your bias against homosexuals.

  • What? Being arrogant? Is featuring arrogance the kind of attention the Church needs? Are we reading the same gospels? I didn’t realize that evangelicals consider arrogance a selling point. Yuck!

  • It isn’t a selling point, but it got your attention. If you’re looking to find fault with evangelicals, make a list of sins. We sin in all the same ways you do.

  • Nope. He was brought in from the street so they would not approach him. He was brought into the house. Male sleeping with male is an abomination. “You shall not sleep with a man as with a woman, it is an abomination” That’s homosexual.
    You’re hoping with Romans one and making excuses instead of looking at the clear facts, Daniel. The Lord was discussing homosexual sex. There is no indication whatsoever that He was discussing heteros.
    I have no bias against homosexuals, but I sure do the sin. I want you to go to Heaven.
    Now, please answer me….If homosexuality were good in God’s eyes, why did He rain burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah because there were none righteous?

  • Ezekiel 16:49 answers your question as to the sin of Sodom. Also, my New American Bible, which has the imprimateur of the Pope in the footnotes to Jude 6 and 7 states,

    “Verse 6, This second example draws on Gn 6, 1-4 as elaborated in the APOCRYPHAL BOOK OF ENOCH (ch 14): heavenly beings came to earth and had sexual intercourse with women. God punished them by casting them out of heaven into darkness and bondage. Verse 7 Practiced unnatural vice; literally, ‘went after alien (heteros) flesh. This example derives from Gn 19:1-25, especially 4-11, when the townsmen of Sodom violated both hospitality and morality by demanding that Lot’s two visitors (really messengers of Yahweh) be handed over to them so that they could ABUSE them sexually. Unnatural vice: this refers to the desire for intimacies by human beings with angels (THE REVERSE OF THE EXAMPLE in 6)

    TELL me, how are you SO much wiser than the many scholars who translated the New American Bible and THEY say that Jude 6 and 7 allude to the book of Enoch and YOU deny it? I have read other commentaries which also trace it back to Enoch. Where would the letter of Jude derived the idea of the fallen angels, if it wasn’t from Enoch? Also, Robert Gagnon is an ultra anti gay professor at the Pittsburgh Theological Seminary. Even he states that the sin of Sodom was rape.

  • Enoch is not scripture.
    You still haven’t answered me on why did the Lord rain burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah after taking Lot out because he was the only righteous one there?

  • Also, I follow Robert Gagnon, and he said no such thing. As I explained to you. “to know” is the same term used with Adam and Eve. Do you think Adam wanted to rape Eve?

  • Robert Gagnon: So on what basis can he assume that the Sodom story does not convey multiple offenses: not only attempted rape but attempted rape of visitors; and not only that but attempted same-sex sexual intercourse that dishonors the visitors by treating their maleness as if it were femaleness?”
    Why We Know That the Story of Sodom Indicts Homosexual Practice Per Se
    Robert A. J. Gagnon, Ph.D.

    You are only seeing what you want to see Daniel. Look at the full picture.

  • You must also remember that Paul stated in Romans 2:1 that the persons like YOURSELF who are judging others are the ones who are making the excuses. I don’t condemn you, but like Paul stated, you condemn yourself by judging others as well denying that that is what you are doing. I have stated many times that even heterosexual marriages which were mixed with idol worship were vociferously condemned as well- and clearly Paul IS talking about idol worshipers in Romans 1. Read Numbers 25 where 24,000 were killed for mixing heterosexual activity with idol worship. Paul alludes to this in 1 Corinthians 10:8 which states, “Let us not indulge in immorality as some of them did, and twenty three thousand feel within a single day. Read 1 Kings 16:31 which speaks against the heterosexual marriage of Ahab with Jezebel which led him into idol worship. Also, you misread Revelation 2:20 which you say speaks of homosexuality. NO, this text about Jezebel, means that Jezebel led people into idol worship. “Harlotry” CAN mean idol worship. You know the phrase “prostituting oneself after other Gods.” Prostitution is often used as a metaphor for idol worship. It doesn’t necessarily mean that all prostitutes (such as Rahab in the book of Joshua) are idol worshipers, but it can be used as a symbol of it. I also think that Paul was using homosexuality as merely a metaphor for the exchange of worshiping the Creature rather than the Creator, rather than saying all gay persons are idol worshipers.

  • I have to admit, I have only read snippets of what he has to say, but I do remember him saying that rape was at least part of the crime.

  • Initially, they wanted to have intimate sex with the men. When denied that, they attempted rape.

  • But one thing about him which I do know is that he has used the Dead Sea Scrolls to understand scripture and the Dead Sea Scrolls is NOT scripture. So, he did something which you condemn doing, which is understanding scripture in light of something which is not scripture. I also think Gagnon IS wrong to say that Paul believed in the complementarity of the sexes. Paul believed the community was far more important than marriage would be. Paul was very lukewarm on marriage in 1 Corinthians 7 and IF we are only complete if we are heterosexually married, then why would Paul be so lukewarm about it? Paul believed that persons are completed with both genders in the Body of Christ, rather than per se the marriage body. I won’t use Gagnon too much as an argument, because few people hate gay people as much as he does.

  • Why would any gay person support such behavior, such as raping people who don’t consent to sex with us?

  • I’m not judging anyone and we are to judge with righteous judgment – God’s word – which I give liberally. Homosexuality is a sin.
    I have explained to you that Paul was discussing idol worship, because people wanted to commit homosexuality (the example he used) and they gave up the truth of God for an idol to commit their homosexuality. Christ turned them over to a reprobate mind so that they should do not that which is good.
    1 Corinthians – homosexuality is a component of “immorality”
    Revelation is discussing enticing people with immorality – homosexuality being a component of immorality.
    I am pleased to see that you acknowledge that homosexuals are idol worshippers. That is because Christ said that homosexuality is a sin and they choose to continue in their sin, thus making an idol, their Lord.
    You said nothing about the second reference in Revelation that upholds 1 Corinthians 6:9-11.
    Now, Christ rained burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah after getting righteous Lot out of there because He could not find a righteous person there otherwise. Why do you think that is?

  • Ask God. He related the situation. Homosexuality is a sin and immorality breeds immorality Daniel.

  • They have found Isaiah in the scrolls.
    God said a man and a woman in marriage are one. He said a man and a man having sex is an abomination. (Leviticus 18)
    So now you don’t want to use Rob Gagnon as a reference to your errors. Good, because he does not support them. he teaches what Jesus taught.

  • I did NOT say that homosexuals are idol worshipers. However, male cult prostitutes were idol worshipers. Female cult prostitutes are also idol worshipers. I really do believe Paul in Romans 1 IS talking about male and female cult prostitutes. Heterosexual sex or homosexual sex as an act of worship of other Gods IS idolatry. Also Revelation 22:15 talks about the “dogs” which DOES mean male cult prostitutes. THAT is the only possible reference to homosexuality in Revelation. Deuteronomy 23:19 states “You shall not offer a harlot’s fee or a DOG’s price as any kind of votive offering in the house of the Lord, your God, both of these things are an abomination to the Lord, your God. I won’t get you to agree with me, and the same goes vice versa.

  • What is your response to what the New American Bible stated about Jude? It certainly doesn’t agree with you on what you said.

  • I found another reference to Sodom which may not be in the Bible. It is Sirach 16:8 which states, “He spared not the neighbors of Lot, whom he detested for their pride.” This certainly doesn’t say they were detested because they were gay, nor that none were righteous because all were gay. But of course, it isn’t in the Bible, whereas the Dead Sea Scrolls count. It is, however, in the Catholic and Orthodox Bible.

  • So, you think that Christ doesn’t want “male cult prostitutes” to engage in homosexuality, but it’s ok for His chosen people? Explain that one please.
    The scripture cited in revelation discusses immorality of which homosexuality is a component.

    Holman Bible Dictionary; on “immorality”:

In Paul’s letters, porneia and/or related words refer to an incestuous relationship ( 1 Corinthians 5:1 ), sexual relations with a prostitute (1 Corinthians 6:12-20 ), and various forms of unchastity both heterosexual and homosexual (Romans 1:29; 1 Corinthians 5:9-11; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; 1 Corinthians 7:2; 2 Corinthians 12:21; Ephesians 5:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:3 ). Immorality is a sin against God (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 1 Corinthians 6:15-20; 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 ). In the Gospels, the term, on occasion, is related to adultery (Matthew 5:32; Matthew 19:9 ) and in Revelation may refer to harlotry or prostitution (Revelation 2:14 ,Revelation 2:14,2:20 ). ”

    The Revelation scripture discusses immorality.

    Please answer me…..after taking Lot out of Sodom and Gomorrah, why did the Lord rain burning sulphur on them because He could find no other righteous?

  • Their pride being that they thought complete strangers would engage in immoral sex with them – yet, that is still not a scriptural reference. Scripture Daniel.

    Why did Christ rain burning sulphur on S&G after taking righteous Lot out and no others were found righteous?

  • Genesis said that the men of Sodom wanted to have loving, intimate sex with the men. That indicates homosexuality.

  • I disagree. The very fact that they’re smart and well informed is what’s guiding them to leave. They have excellent reasons.

  • Answer my question about why the Lord rained burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah because He could find no righteous person there, aside from Lot, and we may discuss other issues. You have been evading me on this all afternoon, and trying to bring in opinions that are not scriptural. Why did the Lord do such?

  • Jezebel led persons into idol worship. Porneia in Revelation means most of all idol worship. Paul in the Greek text never calls homosexuality “porneia” but he does call incest
    “porneia” in 1 Corinthians 5:1. In my Greek dictionary, one definition of the verb of porneia or porneuo, which is in Revelation 2:20 is “to be given in idolatry, to worship idols” Jezebel led Ahab to worship Baal in 1 Kings 16:31. His heterosexual marriage to Jezebel almost brought ruin on the country, because of all the idol worship. It had nothing to do with homosexuality.

  • Homosexuality is a component of immorality, and I’ve shown you that.
    Why did Christ rain burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah after taking righteous Lot out, and not finding another righteous person there, Daniel? Why were there no other righteous people there?

  • Don’t you think that that is a bit eisegetical, that is reading your anti gay bias into the text?

  • Not with Sodom and Gomorrah. Why do you think they call the sin “sodomy”? Why do you think the Lord rained burning sulphur on S&G after taking Lot out – the only righteous person found there? You’ve been evading this all afternoon.

  • I have answered your question many times BY citing scripture. You just want to insist that Sodoms’ only sin was homosexuality, which certainly isn’t what Ezekiel 16:49 states or that any other sin was related to it. No gay person would defend their behavior.

  • “Know” can mean different things in different contexts. Judges 19:22 uses the same Hebrew verb to know or Yada as in the garden of Eden. We know that in this version, rape was the result. It can mean either consensual sex or even rape. So it doesn’t necessarily have the same shade of meaning as in the Garden of Eden. Also, as I stated many times, Leviticus 18 and 20 refers only to anal sex between men. It doesn’t mean just any kind of sex. Lesbianism is never mentioned in Leviticus and the word Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 6:9 Arsenokoitus cannot mean Lesbian since Arseno means male. There is some rhyme and reason to oppose anal sex, since it can easily transmit diseases.

  • No you have not. Why did the Lord rain burning sulphur on S&G after taking the only righteous one – Lot – out? Why did everyone else die? Why were no righteous people found in Sodom and Gomorrah?

    I have never said that Sodom’s only sin was homosexuality. Don’t put words in my mouth Daniel. But, why do you think they call it Sodomy? Why do you think sodomy is a sin?

  • You said: ” Judges 19:22 uses the same Hebrew verb to know or Yada as in the garden of Eden.” Adam did not rape Eve. The men initially wanted to have warm, intimate sex with the men.
    Leviticus 18 refers to homosexuality – a man sleeping with a man as with a woman.
    Lesbianism is referred to in Romans, as I have told you before.
    Revelation 22:14 upholds the definition of homosexuality spoken of in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 – thus emphasizing that homosexuals will not see the kingdom of Heaven.

    Why did the Lord rain burning sulphur on S&G after taking the only righteous one – Lot – out? Why did everyone else die? Why were no righteous people found in Sodom and Gomorrah?

    But, why do you think they call it Sodomy? Why do you think sodomy is a sin?

  • Actually you just told a blatant lie because nobody here judged another man’s heart but the bible does indeed command us to judge those like you that teach satanic deceptions. Here let me educate you once again on the ACTUAL WORDS OF GOD…..

    1 Cor 6:1-11 1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church!a 5I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another—and this in front of unbelievers!7The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

    Leviticus 19:15 15 ¶ Ye shall not do unjustly in judgment: Thou shalt not favor the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty, but thou shalt judge thy neighbor justly.

    1 Cor 2:11-16 Judge all things
    10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    1 Corinthians 2:14-16 Judge all things (We have the mind of Christ)
    14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

    2 Cor 11:1-4 False Preachers
    1. Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    Eph 5:11 Works of Darkness
    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

    Luke 6:37 ¶ Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.
    38 Give, and it shall be given unto you: a good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over shall men give into your bosom: for with what measure ye mete, with the same shall men mete to you again.

    So yes we are to judge liars and deceivers that teach heresy as you do.

  • Daniel, you have yet shown nothing that contradicts the scripture I cite for you. You have tried to use unbiblical opinion….you incorrectly cited Rob Gagnon…your references have not panned out. Please read the comment below and stop hurting homosexuals.
    Also, I would be very interested in the questions that you have evaded all afternoon. I wrote them again for you, below.

  • Yes the Jews are still God’s chosen people and yes the majority of them still reject Jesus Christ and as a matter of salvation you must be born again to see heaven so once you die it’s to late to repent and to late to ever see heaven. As to your claim that ALL of Israel will be saved yes ALL that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God will be saved that is the law. As to your respecting the Gospel that is not true knowing you support what God calls an abomination and that sin is homosexuality. You obviously don’t comprehend one must repent of all sins to be saved and that includs the sin of homosexuality one of the sins that actually calls for the death penalty in both covenants.

    Leviticus 18:22
    Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13
    13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    Romans 1 21-32
    21 Because that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was full of darkness.
    22 When they professed themselves to be wise, they became fools.
    23 For they turned the glory of the incorruptible God to the similitude of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and four footed beasts, and of creeping things.
    24 Wherefore also God gave them up to their hearts lusts, unto uncleanness, to defile their own bodies between themselves:
    25 Which turned the truth of God unto a lie, and worshipped and served the creature, forsaking the Creator which is blessed forever, Amen.
    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    Colossians 3:5
    Mortify therefore your members which are on the earth, fornication, uncleanness, the inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness which is idolatry.

    1 Samuel 15: 1 Samuel
    23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and transgression is wickedness and idolatry. Because thou hast cast away the word of the Lord, therefore he hath cast away thee from being king.

    So how many people have you condemned to hell with your false gospel? God does indeed hold you completely responsible for each homosexual you blatantly lied to.

  • Again you don’t comprehend salvation or the tenets of salvation. When the bible states you must repent of all your sins……..what does that mean to you?

  • Actually describes that Heterosexual marriage is the only marriage ordained by Him and again you speak another gospel claiming something different because there is not one place in the bible homosexual marriage is mentioned, described or condoned other than sick minds reading something that just isn’t there.

    Genesis 2: 23 – 25
    23 Then the man said, This now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman, because she was taken out of the man.
    24 Therefore shall man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be one flesh.
    25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and they were not ashamed.

    Matthew 19:4-5
    4. And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning, made them male and female,
    5.And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

    Mark 10:6-7
    6. But at the beginning of the creation God made them male and female:
    7.For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

    Ephesians 5:31
    For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

    1 Corinthians 11:11
    Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

    Leviticus 21:13
    And he shall take a wife in her virginity.

    Proverbs 18:22
    Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.

    Proverbs 19:14
    House and riches are the inheritance of fathers: and a prudent wife is from the LORD.

    1 Cor 7:4-7
    1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me, It were good for a man not to touch a woman.
    2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
    3 Let the husband give unto the wife due benevolence, and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
    4 The wife hath not the power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not the power of his own body, but the wife.

    1 Corinthians 7:10
    And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

    1 Corinthians 7:14
    For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

    1 Corinthians 7:33
    But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

    Ephesians 5:23
    For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

    Ephesians 5:33
    Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

    1 Timothy 3:2
    A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

    1 Timothy 3:12
    Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

    Titus 1:6
    If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

    1 Peter 3:7
    Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

  • Hurt is part of worship as you should learned from a bible. Love the pain, god feeds the sinner with it.

  • That fact is there are a lot less atheists than Christians and a lot more atheists converting to Christians as to weak and easily faux christians turning to mindless atheists.

  • We are all sinners in the eyes of god as god says so we should all condemn each other because god says in the bible that’s true. We are speaking god’s truth and you sin if you disagree with god.

  • I know…it’s funny when people try to give you an opinion on something they know nothing about. Sad for them

  • God did not give everybody spirit. Some are just born losers without it and then they have to die. There was only so much spirit to go around at contraception.

  • The older TESTAMENT was more perfect but the TESTATOR should do a reno because words get stale and tired even if you are god.

  • God made their wants or didn’t he? So god must have wanted that. Don’t you dare contradict the want of god or you will get worst punishings.