News Revelations

Dallas church to gay member: ‘We lovingly … call you to repentance’

Members of the LGBT community elevate a balloon during a vigil in memory of the victims of the Orlando Pulse gay nightclub shooting and hate crimes in San Salvador, El Salvador, on June 18, 2016. Photo courtesy of REUTERS/Jose Cabezas *Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-LUPFER-OPED, originally transmitted on Aug. 24, 2016.
Members of the LGBT community elevate a balloon during a vigil in memory of the victims of the Orlando Pulse gay nightclub shooting and hate crimes in San Salvador, El Salvador, on June 18, 2016. Photo courtesy of REUTERS/Jose Cabezas *Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-LUPFER-OPED, originally transmitted on Aug. 24, 2016.

Members of the LGBT community elevate a balloon during a vigil in memory of the victims of the Orlando Pulse gay nightclub shooting and hate crimes in San Salvador, El Salvador, on June 18, 2016. Photo courtesy of REUTERS/Jose Cabezas *Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-LUPFER-OPED, originally transmitted on Aug. 24, 2016.

(RNS) A Dallas megachurch is embroiled in controversy after it “lovingly” ousted a member for being in a gay relationship.

Watermark Church, which draws 11,000 people to three campuses every weekend, sent a letter to member Jason Thomas, informing him it was removing him from membership because he was in a relationship with another man.

“We are left with no other option but to remove you from our body . . .,” the letter, posted on the website of The Dallas Morning News, states. “We lovingly but firmly call you back to repentance.”

The letter came to light when Thomas posted it on his Facebook page on Oct. 9. It had been sent to him in October 2015 and he was marking the one-year anniversary of his departure from Watermark.

“Thank you for removing yourself from my life,” Thomas wrote in his Facebook post. “I am who God made me to be. I cannot change my sexual orientation and nor would I want to. I now have internal peace and happiness unlike ever before.”

The revelation of the letter has roiled Dallas, drawing commentary and letters to newspapers and local television news outlets that covered the story.

“To some people, this is a routine means of enforcing good group behavior in the congregation,” Dallas Morning News columnist Jacquielynn Floyd wrote. “To others, it may sound like the Big Church of All Up In Your Business. You get to choose, I guess; nobody’s making you join.”

Todd Wagner, Watermark’s pastor, explained the church’s position in a commentary for the newspaper. Because Thomas didn’t think same-sex activity was “inappropriate for a follower of Jesus Christ,” Wagner wrote, “it became appropriate to formally acknowledge his desire to not pursue faithfulness to Christ with us.”

“Loving correction (church discipline) can be a difficult idea to understand,” the pastor wrote, “because candidly — though the mandate is clearly explained by Jesus in the Gospels and throughout the New Testament, most churches today completely ignore it. Discipline is an act of love, something any parent knows.”

Thomas said he has since gone to two other Dallas churches, which have welcomed him warmly.

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About the author

Kimberly Winston

Kimberly Winston is a freelance religion reporter based in the San Francisco Bay Area.

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  • Jesus mainly spoke of Church discipline when what a fellow Church member did something that affected or hurt another. Matthew 18:15 states in one version that the brother sinned against YOU. Also, Jesus was often accepting of Prostitutes and tax collectors. Tax collectors could be accepted as long as they didn’t collect more than what was prescribed. (Luke 3:13). Prostitutes were accepted as long as they weren’t betrothed to any man and they weren’t idol worshipers. Look at James 2:25 about how Rahab was justified AS a prostitute. I am sure that Jesus would accept gays as long as they didn’t worship idols and weren’t engaging in conduct while being married to someone else, esp. if it was behind their spouse’s back.

  • Rahab was justified because she protected the men.

    James 2:25English Standard Version (ESV)

    25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

    Homosexuals worship idols Daniel – the Lord turned them over to a reprobate mind because they chose idols and sin over Him. Romans 1: 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things….(idols)
    …28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.”

    Where does Jesus say that homosexuality is good?

    Why did the Lord rain burning sulphur on S&G after taking the only righteous one – Lot – out? Why did everyone else die? Why were no righteous people found in Sodom and Gomorrah?

    Why do you think they call it Sodomy? Why do you think sodomy is a sin?

  • Now that I’ve read the pastor’s explanation of what really happened…I fully agree with you.

    THIS church, handled the situation with genuine biblical compassion and caring. They did their best to do things right, and actually try to save their fellowship and relationship with the backslidden Jason Thomas.

    So this mess is on Mr. Thomas, **not** on Watermark Church. The United Methodist Church has already proved what happens when you try to mix the Gay Religion with the Christian religion — always a Total Disaster. According to the article, Mr. Thomas has moved on to a so-called “church”, one that has chosen NOT to believe the Bible. That’s a mess, Mr. Thomas.

    Meanwhile, Watermark Church has done the right thing. They’re paying the price in negative publicity, but that’s what it means to be a biblical Christian church.
    You cannot worship ‘God’ and ‘Gay’ at the same time. Churches gotta make a choice.

    http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2016/10/16/watermark-churchs-loving-correction-helps-members-deal-sin

  • Heterosexual marriage itself can also be idolatry. Read 1 Kings 16:31 about how Ahab’s heterosexual marriage to Jezebel led him into idolatry. That is really what Revelation 2:20 is about when it speaks of Jezebel. Jesus himself stated in Luke 14:28 that we should HATE our heterosexual spouses, presumably when they lead us astray from the truth. No one was considered righteous in Sodom PRIOR to the incidence of gang rape. Genesis 18:20 which speaks of the outcry against Sodom was PRIOR to the incident in Genesus 19. Having ALL the townsmen in 19:4 demand the visitors certainly sounds like they intended gang rape from the very beginning and Lot understood their intention to be gang rape. It certainly wasn’t two consenting adults in any sense of the word at ANY stage of this incident. They neglected the poor and needy (Ezekiel 16:49) prior to this. If you think it is OK to neglect the poor, but homosexuality is not OK, then how do you explain the rich man in Hell for neglecting the poor man Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31? This story has NOTHING to do with homosexuality and it very strongly condemns neglecting the poor and needy. See how James 5:1-6 condemns the rich man for withholding the wages of his worker. Even verse 6 says he murdered the righteous one. James accepted the common prostitute Rahab, but condemned the rich, greedy, oppressive rich man. Jesus himself also accepted prostitutes, as long as they weren’t betrothed, but condemned the greedy rich. The woman who was told to sin no more WAS betrothed.

  • We aren’t discussing heterosexuality.
    Revelation 2:20 is discussing immorality – homosexuality et at.
    It was not intended to be gang rape. It was intended to be intimate sex. “To know” means warm, intimate sex. They wanted an orgy.
    So, why was the Lord intending to destroy them, Daniel?

    It is all about homosexuality as, they wanted to have homosexual sex with the men, who turned out to be angels.
    Kings condemns it as such: 2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);”
    Jude condemns it as such: Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire”.
    Christ was going to remove them all before they even thought of rape. Homosexuality is a sin. The men of Sodom all went to the house to have homosexual sex. Rehab protected the men.
    So, why do they call homosexual sex, Sodomy? Why do you think Sodomy is a sin?

  • JP and Floydlee are agreement. So now we know the church acted badly and maliciously.

    “THIS church, handled the situation with genuine biblical compassion and caring”

    “Biblical” being a modifier to the words that ultimately mean it is something far less than the actual thing.

  • Having ALL the townsmen AT THE BEGINNING of the incident in chapter 19 demand the angels to rape them is NOT at all about “warm, intimate sex.” This kind of behavior would also be condemnable even if it was heterosexual. Of course, any kind of sex, including within heterosexual marriage was forbidden between people and angels. Indeed, in Judges 19, the men end up raping and dismembering the female concubine, when they weren’t able to rape the men . Paul stated in Romans 2:1 that those who condemn, condemn themselves and this was in response to his quotation in Romans 1. Romans 1 is actually Paul quoting persons who wanted to condemn the pagans as idolators. Chapter 2 was his response, which is that we ALL sin, not that only homosexuals are idolators. He didn’t totally agree or disagree with his quotation. You, for instance want to condemn all homosexuals as being idol worshipers, which IS violating Christ’s teaching against judging. But you refuse to consider the many Biblical examples of how Heterosexual marriage itself can be idolatrous. Even the first heterosexual marriage between Adam and Eve helped to bring about the fall of the world. I am a Gay person and I don’t worship idols. I have been a Christian for close to 40 years. And about Jude 7. Sarkas eteras or “alien flesh” that Sodom went after meant angels. The same meaning is in 2 Peter. My Greek English dictionary states that the meaning of “eteras” in Jude 7 means “NOT of the same nature, form, class, kind; different.” This directly contradicts the revisionist interpretation that Bill has offered that Jude 7 has nothing to do with going after angels. Going after same sex human flesh by other humans is NOT going after eteras flesh, since this IS going after persons of the same nature and form. AND the vast majority of Biblical scholars believe that Jude was influenced by Enoch AND the Assumption of Moses. I haven’t read the latter. So, how would you understand the fallen angels in Jude 6, that is, if Enoch did not influence Jude? For everyone who hasn’t followed our discussion, Jude 6 speaks of the angels who didn’t keep to their domain. The book of Enoch understands this to be the angels in Genesis 6:1-4 to have committed a great sin by heterosexually marrying human women and having children with them. They should not have crossed the sexual boundary between humans and angels. This helped create much of the violence that led to Noah’s flood. Likewise, the sin of Sodom, in Jude 7, interpreted in light of Enoch, would have been the crossing of the sexual boundary between humans and angels in the other direction.

  • I doubt very seriously if you can legitimately extrapolate that from the balance of New Testament teaching on human sexuality.

  • Within the context of church discipline I believe the pastor, Todd Wagner, was absolutely correct, and there is nothing in the language that expresses a hateful attitude on the part of the church. It comes down to a divergence of opinion. Not to split hairs, but the article does not indicate if Jason Thomas was married (as the law allows) to the individual he was having a relationship with. That notwithstanding, the church has the right to dis-fellowship him (married or not) by application of the principle known popularly as the “separation of Church and State,” wherein spiritual discipline, if not physically harmful, is not subject to review by civil authority. All the scripture twisting and pretzel logic about what Jesus would say and do is not to the point.
    For those who argue that Jesus’ never said anything about homosexuality, consider this: Jesus’ audience was first and primarily Jewish, it would not have occurred to Him that it was necessary to pontificate on the question because in 1st century Jewish culture where the Mosaic Law was all, the question would never have arisen, unless Jesus Himself sought to change the traditional teaching on human sexuality. He manifestly did not.

  • There is evidence that what Leviticus states about Anal sex between males in Leviticus 20:13 is a ritual purity law and not a moral law. Jesus and Paul placed moral laws above ritual purity laws. Also, talking with an Orthodox Rabbi made me see that Jewish and by extension Christian Traditions added a lot of restrictions about homosexuality that weren’t in the Bible in the first place. One example is banning Lesbianism, which is never mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. The word Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 6:9 CANNOT mean Lesbian since one root is male. The Hebrew Bible also does not ban all sex outside of Heterosexual marriage. Jesus spoke against the traditions of men being treated as divine law.

  • And, let’s get working on all the Bible-swallowers who are gullible enough to believe it is a legitimate source of authority.

  • Lesbianism is mentioned in Romans 1:26 which is in the context of homosexuality.
    Any sex outside of a marriage between a man and a woman is sin.

  • Romans 1:26 never states the women had unnatural relations *with other women.* Therefore it could mean something else like female cult prostitute, who would probably only have sex with men, but combine that with idol worship. Probably the male male sex Paul spoke about in Romans 1:27-28 involved male cult prostitutes, who also worshiped idols. The idol worship, rather than sex acts per se, is what makes cult prostitution wrong. Anyway, like I stated before, the word Paul uses elsewhere or Arsenokoitus in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 CANNOT mean Lesbian, since Arseno means male. Koitis means sexual intercourse and that is something Lesbians cannot do with one another. Oral sex is not considered to be intercourse. Only Vaginal or Anal sex is.

  • “women had unnatural relations *with other women.* would include female prostitution and idol worship. Paul never makes any exception for sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman. All sex outside of this context is sin.

  • Read Exodus 22:16-17. If a woman was NOT betrothed there was absolutely no penalty for her if she was seduced by a man not her husband. On the other hand, according to Deuteronomy 22 (read
    the whole chapter) both the male rapist AND the woman would face the death penalty if the woman was betrothed. The only exception for the woman is if she is raped in the country where she could not have cried for help. If the woman was NOT betrothed in Deuteronomy 22, she faced no penalty. The man might have had to marry her, but he faced far less severe penalties had she been betrothed. A man could legally have sex with any non betrothed woman. A woman could have sex without penalty if she was not betrothed. I don’t see where Paul amended this clear understanding from the Old Testament.

  • Nobody mocks the Bible more often in both word and spirit than Fundamentalist Christians. Using it as a manual for justifying acting like malicious S.O.B.’s.

  • There is no such thing.

    Besides, Bible thumpers only selectively refer to their scripture as a legitimate source of authority. They spend half their time looking for excuses and opt outs from most of its beneficial and socially redeeming parts.

  • They offered the angels warm, intimate, sex, and when turned away because their offer was so filthy, they tried to break into the house. You ran away from the topic again.
    Christ is against homosexuality, if you believe you are worshipping Christ, why are you defying Him as such. If your idol tells you homosexuality is ok, then you are following just that.
    I’ve told you before, Enoch is not a credible book. You bring heresy into the argument.

  • You’ll learn that Daniel has written his own Bible, if you don’t know it already. I’m still new here.

  • That they wanted warm intimate sex is just a figment of your imagination- there is absolutely nothing in Genesis 19 which indicates this. It also shows you don’t understand that words mean different things in different contexts. Clearly you are the one running away from the clear meaning of the text, which is forcible rape. I have answered your question many times as to why they were not considered righteous. All you do is deny Ezekiel 16:49 about the neglect of the poor and needy. And anyway, since you deny the influence of Enoch, you have constantly run away as to why the angels in Jude 6 were considered fallen. I have answered every one of your questions absolutely correctly. You are just so stuck in your extreme bias against homosexual persons. How could you believe in Christ and be so unloving towards your fellow human beings?

  • Look back in Genesis, as the Bible made clear. The same term used with Adam and Eve, and Adam certainly did not rape Eve.
    Sodom’s offer was warm, tender sex until turned away by Lot.
    I don’t need to run. I know what I’m talking about.
    They did neglect the poor – they were allowing each other to try to rape them. How much more neglectful do you want to get?
    The men didn’t know they wanted sex with angels – another error of your Daniel.
    The book of Enoch is not scripture and not considered relevant.
    Is it that you cannot adequately refute what I am saying that you need to attack me personally?
    Homosexuals are not Christians, my friend. That is why we are trying to help you.

    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);”

    Jude condemns it as such: Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire”.

    Christ was going to remove them all before they even thought of rape. Homosexuality is a sin. The men of Sodom all went to the house to have homosexual sex. Rehab protected the men.

    So, why do they call homosexual sex, Sodomy? Why do you think Sodomy is a sin?

  • I actually know what the word means in the original languages. It is porneia in Greek. It literally means “prostitution.” Paul NEVER calls homosexuality porneia, but he does call incest porneia in 1 Corinthians 5:1. The most important meaning of the word is idol worship. Remember idolatry is “prostituting oneself after other Gods.” Apparently you have very limited knowledge of the Biblical languages.
    .

  • You say I attack you personally and then proceed to say I am not a Christian. Where is the golden rule in your language?

  • As you display the same.
    From Baker’s Evangelical Dictionary under “fornication and sexual immorality”

    The most common term in the New Testament for sexual immorality is porneia [porneiva], andits related forms pornos [povrno”] and porneuo [porneuvw]. An emphatic form of the verb, ekporneuo[ejkporneuvw],”indulging in sexual immorality, ” occurs in Jude 7. These words have beentranslated variously into English, some renderings for an immoral person being”whoremonger, ” “fornicator, ” “loose liver, ” and”sexually immoral.” The term pornos [povrno”] refers to a man who engages in coitionwith a porne [povrnh],or female prostitute. The extended description of wanton immorality in Romans 1:24-32discusses women spurning natural sexual relationships for unnatural ones, that is,indulging in lesbian activities of the kind practiced at Lesbos in pagan Greek religiousceremonies. The males are described as inflamed with lust for one another, and this leadsto indecent and immoral behavior. In 1 Corinthians 6:9 the sexually immoral are classifiedas adulterers, male prostitutes, and homosexual offenders. In 1 Timothy 1:10, sexuallyimmoral people are described comprehensively as adulterers and perverts.

    The New Testament contains far less teaching about sexual immorality than the OldTestament, on which Christian morals and ethics are based. The Mosaic law condemnedadultery, but placed less emphasis on prohibiting some other sexual offenses. In the end,disregard for the Mosaic enactments brought Israel to ruin, and this made it important forthe Christian church to distinguish carefully, among other matters, between adultery as asin and porneia [porneiva],which was a fatal perversion.

    The New Testament requires believers to deny physical and spiritual lusting afterpeople and false gods, and to conduct their behavior at a high moral and spiritual level.Sexual activity is to be confined to the marriage relationship, and if a married man orwoman has sexual intercourse with someone other than the spouse, that person has committedadultery. To be most satisfying for the Christian, sexual activity must reflect the valuesof self-sacrificing love and the unity of personality to which the Christian’sreconciliation to God by the atoning work of Jesus brings the believing couple.

  • So you are now trying to say that Adam prostituted Eve? lol….keep reaching Daniel.
    You obviously have no idea about the original languages – this is twice that I have had to correct you! (edited)

  • You want to believe that Adam raped Eve, Daniel?
    Fornication is sex outside of marriage. At least learn a little Daniel.
    Speaking about not answering questions, Daniel…

    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);”

    Jude condemns it as such: Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire”.

    Christ was going to remove them all before they even thought of rape. Homosexuality is a sin. The men of Sodom all went to the house to have homosexual sex. Rehab protected the men.

    So, why do they call homosexual sex, Sodomy? Why do you think Sodomy is a sin?

  • 1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.1 John 2: 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,”

    1 John 1:6 – If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.

    1 John 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
    Your idol may try to tell you differently, Daniel, but homosexuality is a sin.

  • No, no, no, no…..you answer the questions that I have been asking you for weeks.
    The angels in Sodom and Gomorrah did not fall – there is no scripture saying such – again, you write your own Bible, Daniel
    Now, would you like to answer my questions:

  • Words DON’T have the exact same meaning in every context. For instance the word for “lust” or epithymia can have a very negative meaning. However, it had a positive meaning when Jesus used this very same word to say he desired to eat the Passover. The Hebrew word Yada can mean rape OR consensual sex. It basically just means sex. It also is the word used for “knowing” God. Very different meanings in different contexts.

  • Jude 6 clearly states that there were fallen angels which probably refers to the angels of Genesis 6:1-4, which is not the same story as Sodom. READ Genesis 6:1-4. I never said it referred to the angels who were the guests of Lot.

  • The main commandment in all these texts you quote is LOVE, something which you completely disregard.

  • Where? You’re trying to disprove S&G. You cannot even keep your assertions straight Daniel! You jump here and say this. You jump there and say that, but none of it has to do with what we are talking about, my friend. Next, you’ll be trying to sell me a vacuum cleaner……lol.
    Stay on topic, please, and answer my questions about Peter and “sodomy”.

  • now now now Bill…..lol…..I’ve got a quote for you – tongue in cheek now: “I have learnt that if you want to know the truth of scripture all you have to do is ask an atheist as they know everything.” – Wonforall

  • You obviously make no effort to understand anything I say, so blinded by your hatred for homosexuality. I wish you could see that when you hate homosexuality, you also hate the person. You seem to think you can separate the person from their sexual orientation. Of course equating homosexuality with “sodomy” as I stated was an act of hatred by the Church, which also hated the Jews for so long.

  • I have answered your questions many times. You just didn’t accept my answers. You never answered what Jude 6 referred to.

  • Yes I agree your comments if anything are good for a laugh because they do anything but involve honesty or integrity.

  • You answered your own question, Daniel. “You seem to think you can separate the person from their sexual orientation.” You can. You are not your sin.
    “With respect to loving the sinner and hating the sin, which it indeed is called to do, what can it say to those who, in contempt of the saints who have fled their sins, declare their persons to be inseparable from the sin, identifying themselves with it—and then blame the Church for hating them as persons? ”
    Is the Megachurch the New Liberalism? by Albert Mohle

    Where does Jesus say that homosexuality is good?
    Why did the Lord rain burning sulphur on S&G after taking the only righteous one – Lot – out? Why did everyone else die? Why were no righteous people found in Sodom and Gomorrah?
    Why do you think they call it Sodomy? Why do you think sodomy is a sin?

    If your God never disagrees with you, you just might be worshiping an idealized version of yourself – Tim Keller
    Stop using excuses to justify homosexuality and start looking at real scripture Daniel.

  • Who is attacking who? I just hope that you won’t influence other people. The only thing you have convinced me of is that you are wrong but very sure you are right. Don’t you see you are making heterosexuality into an idol? Aren’t you worshipping that instead of Jesus? Jesus stated that at times we are to hate our heterosexual spouse. He never said being heterosexual was salvific. We are justified by Faith. We shouldn’t boast as you do of being heterosexual.

  • Keep hoping Daniel…..you still haven’t answered my questions……still waiting. Are you afraid of a little reality?
    Where does Christ condone homosexuality?

    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);”

    Jude condemns it as such: Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire”.
    So, why do they call homosexual sex, Sodomy? Why do you think Sodomy is a sin?

  • He has inner peace and feels closer to his god. Something the church could apparently not provide. Think on that for a minute. Or don’t.

  • still not answering my questions, Daniel? You must be afraid of the truth. Jesus came to free us from our sin, not to try to hurt people by declaring it an un-sin.

    Where does Christ condone homosexuality?

    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);”

    Jude condemns it as such: Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire”.

    So, why do they call homosexual sex, Sodomy? Why do you think Sodomy is a sin?

    I praise the Lord for the air that He lets me breathe. You going to step up and answer the questions?

  • You forget that Satan is the father of lies. He’ll let him believe everything is good until he tires of him. Christ will still be there to forgive and heal the young man though.

  • I have already answered all your questions. Jesus placed far more emphasis on Love than on being heterosexual. He certainly didn’t condemn people loving those of the same gender. I have stated over and over again that Jesus did not emphasize ritual purity laws. Leviticus 20:13 IS a ritual purity law. You obviously figuratively are a very deaf person who is completely incapable of understanding or empathizing with any human being who happens to be Gay. You don’t believe me when I say I didn’t choose to be gay, even though I struggled for years with it. You then blame Jesus for your complete lack of compassion, by saying falsely that he said it was a choice. He never said any such thing. Shame on you. Stop blaming Jesus for your hatred of homosexual persons. Don’t you see that Jesus taught compassion? You are completely lacking in any demonstration of compassion for Gays. You say you are trying to help- you are not being helpful at all with your complete lack of empathy for gay persons. You may be more compassionate on other subjects, however. But you are not at all on this one.

  • You have not answered my questions – just attempted to throw insults at me. Is that because you cannot answer my questions?
    Leviticus 20-13 is a moral law. Christ brought it into the New Testament in Matthew 15:9.

    Where does Christ condone homosexuality?

    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);”

    Jude condemns it as such: Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire”.

    So, why do they call homosexual sex, Sodomy? Why do you think Sodomy is a sin?
    (edited)

  • I told you the truth about yourself. I didn’t throw insults. Everything I stated about you is an absolute fact. I don’t experience you as being a kind person in any sense of word to gays. You MIGHT be kind in other ways, but just you are not kind in your attitude about gay persons. That is a fact. It is not an insult. It is also true of many other Fundamentalists as well. I answered all your questions. You just didn’t hear what you wanted to hear. You must not remember that unclean foods were also considered to be an abomination in Deuteronomy 14:3. “Unclean” means ritually impure. Ritually impure has to do with the uncleanness of bodily discharges, such as in Leviticus 15. I have told you over and over again what I think each and every text that you quote to justify your hatred means. I feel insulted by your constant insistence that what I am in the very core of my being is sinful and will send me to hell forever, despite the fact that I believe in Jesus. Are we NOT justified by faith apart from the works of the Law? Or are we justified by being heterosexual?

  • Let me prove you a wolf among the sheep. The fact s God defined MARRIAGE from the

    beginning and homosexuals deserve death.

    Leviticus 18:22
    Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13
    13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32Who knowing the judgment of God,****** that they which commit such things are worthy of death*****,not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    As for God defining marriage……

    Genesis 2: 23 – 25
    23 Then the man said, This now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman, because she was taken out of the man.
    24 Therefore shall man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be one flesh.
    25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and they were not ashamed.

    Matthew 19:4-5
    4. And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning, made them male and female,
    5.And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

    Mark 10:6-7
    6. But at the beginning of the creation God made them male and female:
    7.For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

    Ephesians 5:31
    For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

    1 Corinthians 11:11
    Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

    Leviticus 21:13
    And he shall take a wife in her virginity.

    Proverbs 18:22
    Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.

    Proverbs 19:14
    House and riches are the inheritance of fathers: and a prudent wife is from the LORD.

    1 Cor 7:4-7
    1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me, It were good for a man not to touch a woman.
    2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
    3 Let the husband give unto the wife due benevolence, and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
    4 The wife hath not the power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not the power of his own body, but the wife.

    1 Corinthians 7:10
    And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

    1 Corinthians 7:14
    For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

    1 Corinthians 7:33
    But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

    Ephesians 5:23
    For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

    Ephesians 5:33
    Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

    1 Timothy 3:2
    A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

    1 Timothy 3:12
    Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

    Titus 1:6
    If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

    1 Peter 3:7
    Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

    So as you can see homosexuality is condemned and marriage is 1 man and one women and please don’t point to the sin of polygamy because as you can see above polygamy isn’t found in God’s definition of what God calls a marriage. .

  • Heterosexual can be a idolatry but the homosexual behavior is always idolatry.

    Colossians 3:5
    Mortify therefore your members which are on the earth, fornication, uncleanness, the inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness which is idolatry.

  • I doubt satan’s disciple will hear or see the truth because obviously God kept His word and turned him over to a reprobate mind.

  • thanks Bill. I keep praying for him.
    2 Corinthians 4:4 – New International Version

    The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”
    I think that is moreso his problem.

  • What the church does is really none of your business. You see your opinion means nothing to others but as long as you think it does it’ll be a one sided argument.

  • Unless you are a member of that denomination, it’s none of your business either. Fundies generally have no respect for boundaries of others and always like to pretend everything and everyone is their business.

  • All you have done, my friend, is avoid answering my questions. You tried insulting me. You tried evading with scripture that has nothing to do with what we are discussing. You tried self pity. Let’s face it, Daniel, you shouldn’t be teaching the trash that you promote if you cannot respond to a few simple questions. You hurt homosexuals, my friend.
     “When we become so tolerant that we lead people into mental fog and spiritual darkness, we are not acting like Christians—we are acting like cowards” (A.W. Tozer).

  • You clearly are a person who justifies a deep hatred for Gays by scripture. You probably also justify hatred towards all non Christians by scripture. Most fundamentalists believe all non Christians, including the Jews, are going to hell. Fundamentalists also believe many other Christians are also going to Hell. I also think this is profoundly disrespectful. I won’t convince you that you are wrong. My only hope is that you are not a United Methodist as I am. If you are, I would ask you to please leave it alone, and go to a denomination that already agrees with your prejudices.

  • Another one of your well thought out comments….NOT. So here you are a foolish opinionated atheist fool on a religious site attempting to force your unfounded opinion on others……..HYPOCRITE MUCH? BTW the bble and it’s followers are my business which can’t be said about you. So how does it feel to be constantly be shown a fool?

  • Because homosexuality is a abomination and doesn’t fit God’s definition of a marriage. It is fact a sexual sin cursed by God Himself.

  • The 10Comandments absolutely prohibit being a thief. Hunger is inherited. You cannot use hunger, even dire, to justify stealing food. Therefore, in the same way, an inherited trait cannot be used to justify breaking another of God’s Laws/laws.

  • The latest excuse of yours for the hour, but I answered that one a few spots back.
    You still haven’t answered my questions Daniel.

    Where does Christ condone homosexuality?

    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);”

    Jude condemns it as such: Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire”.

    So, why do they call homosexual sex, Sodomy? Why do you think Sodomy is a sin?
    How long do you want to dance? (edited)

  • I did answer your questions. My answers just didn’t square with your bigotry. You clearly excuse your own bigotry by scripture. Your hatred would bother me less if I knew you were not United Methodist.

  • Where did Christ teach us to hate homosexual persons? Jesus taught us to love everyone. He accepted prostitutes and would accept Gays.

  • Where does Christ say that homosexuality is good?

    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);”

    Jude condemns it as such: Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire”.Why did the Lord rain burning sulphur on S&G after taking the only righteous one – Lot – out? Why did everyone else die? Why were no righteous people found in Sodom and Gomorrah?

    Why do you think they call it Sodomy? Why do you think sodomy is a sin?

  • I also answered you about Jude and 2nd Peter, which you constantly quote. You rejected my answer, but refused to say what the fallen angels were in Jude 6. This would be explained by Enoch, but you rejected this explanation. You also don’t explain how Sarkas eteras in Jude 7 does NOT mean angels since Sarkas eteras means a *different* kind of flesh. Sarkas eteras is IN Jude 7 and not Enoch, but Enoch provides more understanding. You clearly don’t know the original languages as I especially know Greek.

  • Enoch is not a Biblical Book.

    Where does Christ say that homosexuality is good?

    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);”

    Jude condemns it as such: Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire”.Why did the Lord rain burning sulphur on S&G after taking the only righteous one – Lot – out? Why did everyone else die? Why were no righteous people found in Sodom and Gomorrah?

    Why do you think they call it Sodomy? Why do you think sodomy is a sin?

  • That isn’t my question.

    Where does Christ say that homosexuality is good?

    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);”

    Jude condemns it as such: Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire”.Why did the Lord rain burning sulphur on S&G after taking the only righteous one – Lot – out? Why did everyone else die? Why were no righteous people found in Sodom and Gomorrah?

    Why do you think they call it Sodomy? Why do you think sodomy is a sin?

  • Eteras Sarkas means different kind of flesh. It IS what Sodom went after in Jude 7. If this doesn’t mean angels, then what would it mean?

  • Nope.

    Where does Christ say that homosexuality is good?

    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);”

    Jude condemns it as such: Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire”.Why did the Lord rain burning sulphur on S&G after taking the only righteous one – Lot – out? Why did everyone else die? Why were no righteous people found in Sodom and Gomorrah?

    Why do you think they call it Sodomy? Why do you think sodomy is a sin?

  • Daniel, you are obviously unable to answer my questions – simple ones really. You have to stop hurting homosexuals.

  • What does “The angels too, who did not keep TO THEIR OWN DOMAIN but deserted their proper dwelling. Verse 7 states LIKEWISE Sodom acted IN The like way to the angels in verse 6. How would they have acted the same way if it wasn’t crossing the barrier between people and angels?

  • We just don’t agree about what Jesus taught. To me it is obvious he taught love, but you insist he taught hatred. Even Paul mostly taught Love. Self hatred is not good for Gays. You do try to get gay persons to hate themselves. It is far healthier for persons to accept themselves as they are.

  • We can keep playing my comments back and forth to you. I’m sure the mod will be unhappy. (My apologies to he/she)
    When you get some proper education and can answer my questions, from a Bible, then, we’ll continue. Until then, not interested.

  • You don’t answer what Sarkas eteras means if it doesn’t mean angels. “Nope” is not an answer. This phrase IS in Jude 7 and not Enoch. You don’t need Enoch to understand Jude 7 to mean angels, but Enoch provides more understanding of Jude 6 of the fallen angels.

  • How did I not answer your questions from the Bible? What does Sarkas eteras mean if it doesn’t mean angels? This phrase IS in the Bible!

  • “BTW the bble and it’s followers are my business.”

    Could have fooled me. Doesn’t really show in the stuff you post 🙂

  • If you were a born again Christian indwelt by the Holy Spirit you wouldn’t be asking such foolish questions. I already posted many scriptures that show God’s word condemns homosexuality but you attempt to twist the word of God to fit your perverted ways. Now if you could show us where in the bible homosexual marriage is defined and/or behavior is condoned.

  • Yes I understand how truth both confuses you and bring out your anger. So if you don’t like being treated as you treat Christians why continue in invite it?

  • If you would like to familiarize yourself how Christ treated HYPOCRITES such as you read Matthew 23 then you’ll know why I give the abuse right back to you.

  • Thomas said he has since gone to two other Dallas churches, which have welcomed him warmly, the article mentions.

    Good for him.

    Religion, namely Christianity, would be better and greater if its adherents would take the high road and follow these few and other great attitudes about our very lovable LGBT friends —

    1. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way……….Romans 14:13

    2. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God…..Romans 15:7

    3. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love……….Ephesians 4:2

    4. Be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone……….Titus 3:2

    5. Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble………1Peter 3:8

    6. Man’s ways are of the Lord,………….Proverbs 20:24

    7. You may believe there’s nothing wrong with what you are doing or how you feel about yourself, so you can keep it between yourself and God.
    BLESSED are those who don’t condemn themselves for doing things and thinking of themselves, in the way they know is best………..Romans 14:22. That’s called, working out your own salvation.

    8. Many things about how LGBT’s live or want to live are now allowable, lawful, and permissible…….1Corinthians 6:12…….1Corinthians 10:23

    Cheer to Jason Thomas and all of the other Jason Thomases who know and understand themselves better than others.

  • Of course the opinion of a single Orthodox Rabbi is hardly conclusive or authoritative, while somewhat surprising. I would give odds that the bulk of Orthodox Rabbis’ would disagree with his assessment of this particular question. I will readily concede that within the context of the Mosaic Law, not all sex outside of marriage is banned, however, the exceptions were limited and confined to specific purposes, mostly related to inheritance and preserving familial lines. such cases take a wide berth away from the case you are making.

  • Daniel, you seriously need to stop peddling these fables because you’re potentially misleading those who do not have the advantage of a thorough working knowledge of scripture and that is a serious matter. Porneia within scripture is (1) in a literal sense ANY kind of sexual immorality, paid or not, connected to idol worship or not, and (2) in a figurative sense unfaithfulness to God a.k.a. idolatry. Porneia ran the gamut from simple premarital sex to outright sexual perversion and everything in between. Anything outside of a scripturally legitimate marriage IS porneia — a “prostitution” of our sexuality from our Creator’s original holy design and purpose for it.

    As for your point about “ritual impurity,” we know that same-sex behavior was not merely a matter of ritual impurity from the manner in which ALL ancient commentary available to us treats it. Josephus, who had the same background as Paul and wrote in much the same vein, wrote of it quite matter-of-factly in the context of the laws of marriage, not idolatry: “What, then, are our laws about marriage? That Law owns no other mixture of sexes but that which nature has appointed, that natural union of man and wife, and that for the procreation of children. But it abhors the mixture of a male with a male, and if any do that, death is his punishment.” –Flavius Josephus, Against Apion. Homosexual practice being a capital crime in Jesus’ world, I imagine if He intended to make revisions on the subject He would have mentioned it at some point but did not. Instead He raised the bar (to aim for purity in thought as well as deed) rather than lowering it.

    It does no one any good to lie about scripture. Even if you managed to convince EVERYONE to disregard it (and there were times in Israel’s history when such was pretty much the case) it would still stand.

  • Josephus is not from the Bible. I am stating just how the word porneia is used in the New Testament. Homosexuality is never referred to as porneia in the New Testament. Incest IS, however. Premarital sex is NOT in either Testament. Extra marital sex IS. However, in the OT, a man only committed adultery when the woman was betrothed to another man. A woman committed adultery when she was betrothed, but it wasn’t adultery if she was not betrothed. Perhaps the NT has the same expectation for men that the OT has for women.
    Having sex with a woman during her menstrual cycle (Leviticus 20:18) was a ritual purity law. What it states about anal sex in 20:13 is also a ritual purity law, since it involves mixing defiling bodily discharges. (Leviticus 15)
    It is true that both Jews and Christians added more and more sexual laws as time went by. Josephus represents a later, more legalistic view. Jews, for instance didn’t ban polygyny until 1000 years ago. Also, Paul stated that the norm was Cleaving to the Lord in 1 Corinthians 6:17, that this was the antidote to porneia. Even heterosexual marriage can be porneia, since it can lead persons into idol worship.

  • So the answer to Daniel’s question was obviously no. But you feel you have a “special decoder ring” for the Bible that goes beyond anything said within its text. Again calling in grave doubts you actually read the book.

  • Christians don’t judge. They repeat God’s judgments…
    Christ told me I needed to repent of my sin and accept Him as my Lord and Saviour to be a part of His family – homosexuals are no different.
    Absolutely – sometimes love hurts – especially when it is a truth we don’t want to acknowledge
    Gentleness would include helping the person to see their sin so they can be right with Jesus
    Living in harmony also includes people recognizing their sin, so they can have peace with God.
    Your only problem with number 7 – if you are actively sinning, God will not hear your prayers – so there is no “keep it between you and God”
    Homosexuals are not allowable, or lawful in God’s eyes. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.
    Cheers to all of the people who are helping homosexuals to not believe the lies written in the comment Billysees made, which are intended to keep them tied up in their bondage and not free in Jesus. (edited)

  • So you compare prostitutes to homosexuals, Daniel……you finally understand that homosexuality is a sin. Finally!
    Christ would have told them to go sin no more. blessings Daniel.

  • The point is rather that if prostitutes could be accepted according to James 2:25, then gay people all the more could be accepted. You insist that homosexual orientation is chosen. You therefore are bearing false witness against your Neighbor. Bearing false witness is a sin. It is a violation of one of the ten commandments. Blaming this sin on Jesus makes your sin all the more serious. The Bible no where addresses sexual orientation or inward feelings towards one gender or another. It DOES address particular acts. You won’t change my mind. I won’t change yours. My hope is to sway the public against your prejudiced view of homosexual persons. You are very entrenched in your view.

  • The problem here is you’re as clueless about the bible as Danny is. I in fact
    posted many bible verses that proved him deceiver and of course your ignorance of that is manifold.

  • Well, reading these comments certainly show that he was right to leave. So much hate, so little love.

  • Also, he would have told them to sin no more IF they were betrothed to another man. Read Exodus 22:16-17. There is NO penalty for an unmarried woman to have sex with a man if she was not betrothed. A betrothed woman would be subject to the death penalty. The woman Jesus told to sin no more must have been betrothed because she was subject to the death penalty. Prostitutes were accepted as long as they did not worship idols and weren’t betrothed to a man.

  • Come on, Sandi, you DO hate me. Jesus taught us to our neighbors as we love OURSELVES. Therefore we should love ourselves. You hurt homosexuals by telling them that they should hate themselves. Self hatred is self destructive.

  • I’m trying to imagine how lost and listless you (and Sandi) would be if you didn’t have your coveted book of mythical nonsense to quote from. But I’m pretty sure that instead of being lost and listless, you would be quoting from one of the other famous books of mythical nonsense. I find it amusing (or perhaps ‘pathetic’ is the correct word) that people latch onto one of these books as if it were absolute truth, and dismiss all the others as mythical nonsense.

  • You ducked his question and flung poo. You do so now. I still don’t see a citation from Colossians he asked of you.

    The great thing about your posts are how the custody any notion that “Christian love” is a real thing.

  • No….you hurt homosexuals by directing them to Hell, Daniel. You wanted to talk about blood on our hands at one time….something for you to think about. Christ offers freedom from the bondage that you bring people into and He does it with love.

  • you still don’t understand fornication, eh? And they let you teach in a church? Do you also think because Moses murdered a man, that murder is ok? You really do make up your own Bible as you go along, son.
    Here, I’ll help you out:fornication
    [fawr-ni-key-shuh n]
    Spell Syllables
    Examples Word Origin
    See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
    noun
    1.voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons or two persons not married to each other.
    2.Bible. idolatry.

    I’ll help you here also:1 Corinthians 7:2 ESV
    But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.”
    Christ said, “If you love me, follow my commandments” Who do you want to love more, you sex partners, or Christ?
    Now, run along and fight with God.

  • No….prostitution is a sin, Daniel. Please, look up the word, “fornication”, and give your idol a rest. The Bible doesn’t need to discuss man’s concept of ‘sexual orientation”. That was designed to make homosexuality ‘acceptable’ to people who don’t know better – or Jesus. Christ was quite clear about homosexuality being an abomination, but you’ve not included that in the Bible you write, eh? Try:”Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.” Pretty clear. Pretty succinct.
    But, God has been successful in one thing. You are now equating homosexuality with prostitution – both immoral sins in His eyes. Have a nice day Daniel.

  • Where does Christ say that homosexuality is good?

    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);”

    Jude condemns it as such: Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire”.Why did the Lord rain burning sulphur on S&G after taking the only righteous one – Lot – out? Why did everyone else die? Why were no righteous people found in Sodom and Gomorrah?

    Why do you think they call it Sodomy? Why do you think sodomy is a sin?

  • “Premarital sex is NOT in either Testament.” Wrong. If a Jewish maiden was not a virgin for ANY reason upon marriage she was executed for “playing the whore” (ekporneusasai) in her father’s house. Sex outside of legitimate marriage was prostitution in and of itself — the particular circumstances of it did not matter. Since Jesus allowed for divorce in the case of “porneia,” this would of course cover the presumed cause for which His own mother was almost divorced by Joseph, “a righteous man,” but for the intervention of God.

    “Josephus is not from the Bible.” True, but Josephus is an excellent reference for how 1st century Jews, of whom Jesus was one and Paul another, understood their own scriptures. Jesus, after all, instructed the people to observe everything their religious leaders taught them — just not to follow their examples, for they did not practice what they preached either consistently or with right motives. And there simply is no question as to how Jews of His time understood “porneia.”

    “Paul stated that the norm was Cleaving to the Lord in 1 Corinthians 6:17, that this was the antidote to porneia.” Wrong. The antidote to “porneias” specifically prescribed in 1 Cor.7:2 was for every man to have his own wife, and every wife her own husband — for everything outside of that is outside of God’s creation design. Cleaving to God ( “abiding in the Vine,” as Jesus phrased it) is the ultimate antidote to ALL sin through the working of the Holy Spirit. Which is why the habitual practice of sin may usually be taken as prima facie evidence of NOT “abiding in the Vine.”

    “Even heterosexual marriage can be porneia, since it can lead persons into idol worship.” Anything can lead persons into idol worship. And all sin is essentially “idol worship” anyway since it always involves placing something else (usually self) before loyalty and obedience to God. Marriage is not porneia if it is legitimate before the Lord: “Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled” Hebrews 13:4.

    “What it states about anal sex in 20:13 is also a ritual purity law” Convenient that you would cherry pick two sexual prohibitions out of an entire chapter of them (for which the same chapter tells us God rejected all of the Gentile nations that preceded Israel in the holy land) and dismiss them as “ritual purity laws.” Sorry, but that doesn’t wash. The entirety of ancient Jewish commentary upon the subject is a far more reliable guide to what the New Testament writers meant by what they wrote than that of people coming along 2000 years later with a cultural agenda to nurture.

  • lol….lol….I just worry about the people who may be led down the wrong path because of his lies…..

  • You OPINION is noted but hilarious to say the least.

    BTW the burden of proof is on you to prove the book is mythical because the simple fact is archeology is proving it to be more accurate than most history books we have on that part of the world.

  • You state,
    “Premarital sex is NOT in either Testament.” Wrong. If a Jewish maiden was not a virgin for ANY reason upon marriage she was executed for “playing the whore” (ekporneusasai) in her father’s house”

    Exodus 22:15-16 When a man seduces a virgin WHO IS NOT BETROTHED, and lies with her, he shall pay her marriage price and marry her.- NO death penalty for either the man or the woman.

    Deuteronomy 22:23-24 If within a city a man comes upon a woman WHO IS BETROTHED, and has relations with her, you shall bring them out to the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because HE VIOLATED HIS NEIGHBOR’S wife.

    The main violation for a man is NOT having any sex outside of marriage, but rather having sex with a woman who is betrothed or married to another man. Perhaps the man has to take responsibility for a non betrothed woman, but there is no death penalty for him OR her if she is not betrothed.

    Leviticus 20:10 If a man commits ADULTERY WITH HIS NEIGHBOR’S WIFE, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.

    Abraham had Hagar as a concubine while being married to Sarah. This was not considered wrong for either Abraham or Hagar because Hagar was not married to another man. It would not have been permitted had Hagar been married to another man.

    Marriage can be porneia when it leads persons into idol worship. Deuteronomy 13:7 commands the Israelites to kill even their beloved wife if the wife leads the man into idolatry. Of course it could be the husband who leads the wife into idol worship. Ahab’s marriage to Jezebel led Ahab into worshiping other Gods. (1 Kings 16:31)

  • So you’re arguing that a woman found by her new husband to have had premarital sex was NOT executed? Interesting. Love cutting up those scriptures, don’t you?

  • The inevitabilty of that behavior was what I was probing at; rather than taking the answer from secular sources, I used a Source, the 10 Commandments, that is widely accepted. My conclusion is that being “born with it” – we’ve all been hungry – does not justify breaking another law/Law.

    Thank you for the opportunity to restate this.

  • The main reason is that she violated her betrothal. That is the plain teaching of Scripture. It isn’t “cutting it up.”

  • Actually I did no such thing but then again it was once again the answer was way over your head let alone your comprehension level. Perhaps you missed the fornication part in that verse? Perhaps you missed several other answers I gave him that you once again CHOOSE to be ignorant of.

  • She may not have. She may have had sex before she was ever betrothed. There would be no way of knowing. Penalty or no penalty, it is still “porneia,” as the text states. No idols required.

  • God can and does use evil for good especially when satan’s disciples are exposed as wolves in sheeps clothing.

  • Well knowing the bible speaks against and outright condemns homosexuality what does that say about those apostate churches?

    God in fact defined marriage in both testament and those like you are as guilty as committing the sin of homosexuality and the consequence…..death.

    Leviticus 18:22
    Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13
    13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    Romans 1 21-32
    21 Because that when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful, but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was full of darkness.
    22 When they professed themselves to be wise, they became fools.
    23 For they turned the glory of the incorruptible God to the similitude of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and four footed beasts, and of creeping things.
    24 Wherefore also God gave them up to their hearts lusts, unto uncleanness, to defile their own bodies between themselves:
    25 Which turned the truth of God unto a lie, and worshipped and served the creature, forsaking the Creator which is blessed forever, Amen.
    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    As for God defining marriage this leaves no doubt.

    Genesis 2: 23 – 25
    23 Then the man said, This now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman, because she was taken out of the man.
    24 Therefore shall man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be one flesh.
    25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and they were not ashamed.

    Matthew 19:4-5
    4. And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning, made them male and female,
    5.And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

    Mark 10:6-7
    6. But at the beginning of the creation God made them male and female:
    7.For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

    Ephesians 5:31
    For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

    1 Corinthians 11:11
    Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

    Leviticus 21:13
    And he shall take a wife in her virginity.

    Proverbs 18:22
    Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD.

    Proverbs 19:14
    House and riches are the inheritance of fathers: and a prudent wife is from the LORD.

    1 Cor 7:4-7
    1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me, It were good for a man not to touch a woman.
    2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
    3 Let the husband give unto the wife due benevolence, and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
    4 The wife hath not the power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not the power of his own body, but the wife.

    1 Corinthians 7:10
    And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

    1 Corinthians 7:14
    For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

    1 Corinthians 7:33
    But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

    Ephesians 5:23
    For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

    Ephesians 5:33
    Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

    1 Timothy 3:2
    A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

    1 Timothy 3:12
    Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

    Titus 1:6
    If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

    1 Peter 3:7
    Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

    So do you comprehend a wife is never a man!!!!!!!!!

  • I don’t think it is “porneia” if a woman had sex when she wasn’t betrothed. It isn’t porneia for the man, either, if the woman wasn’t betrothed. However, perhaps one big reason the man had to marry the non betrothed maiden in Exodus 22:15-16 was to protect her against accusations that you allude to if she went on to marry a different man. Idolatry IS porneia because it is a violation of our marriage to the Lord, which is far more important than our earthly marriage.

  • This is my last comment to you. I ask you, if 50 men came outside the door of your house demanding you come out of your house so that they could all have sex with you, would you really be capable of believing that all they wanted was “warm, intimate sex” with you? Also, does ANY homosexual thought condemn a person to hell? Is the inability to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex what condemns someone to hell? Or is it just homosexual acts that condemn someone? You could go even further and just say homosexuality combined with rape, idol worship, child molesting, or engaging in homosexual behavior behind one’s spouse is what is condemnable? I personally would be strongly against the last scenario I just mentioned, but not the first three. It also seems to me that most Biblical references condemn mostly the last scenario and don’t mention the first two.

  • Daniel – Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?” They were going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah before the homosexuals even wanted to have gentle, loving sex with the men. So, what is your excuse now?

    So, please, before you run too fast:
    Where does Christ say that homosexuality is good?

    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);”

    Jude condemns it as such: Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire”.Why did the Lord rain burning sulphur on S&G after taking the only righteous one – Lot – out? Why did everyone else die? Why were no righteous people found in Sodom and Gomorrah?

    Why do you think they call it Sodomy? Why do you think sodomy is a sin? (edited)

  • “Is that what this Colossians text states?” was the question

    Matthew 23 “A Warning Against Hypocrisy”. Its a great passage that most Christians of a self righteous bent ignore with impunity.

    Irony is completely lost on you. 🙂

  • You didn’t answer my question. God wanted to destroy them prior to this incident because they neglected the poor and needy (Ezekiel 16:49), not because they were gay. Is it ANY homosexual thought which condemned Sodom then? Or was it the inability to feel sexual desire for the opposite sex? Where does Ezekiel 16:49 state that they were destroyed because they couldn’t feel sexual desire for the opposite sex?

  • Are you going to constantly run away from my questions, Daniel? You want yours answered, try reciprocating hon.
    And it had nothing to do with:

    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);
    Lot was distressed about their “sensual conduct”. Now, when all the men of the town come out to have a homosexual orgy, one would immediately clue in. Why haven’t you? BTW – rape is not “sensual conduct”.
    Also….

    Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire”
    There is more “sexual immorality and perversion” – how does that fit in with neglecting the poor? How does wicked sensual conduct translate into “neglecting the poor”, Daniel? God wanted to get rid of them before the angels even got there.

    Where does Christ say that homosexuality is good?

    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);”

    Jude condemns it as such: Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire”.Why did the Lord rain burning sulphur on S&G after taking the only righteous one – Lot – out? Why did everyone else die? Why were no righteous people found in Sodom and Gomorrah?

    Why do you think they call it Sodomy? Why do you think sodomy is a sin? (edited)

  • You see problem here is you’re not qualified nor educated on the Christian faith to have a rational and intelligent conversation with you. Thank you for proving that fact. The Matt 23 was specifically directed at you for that purpose and that is to expose you for the fool and addlepate you present yourself as on every one of your comments.

  • I answered your questions. You didn’t like my answers. Well, maybe do you want me to say they were condemned because they couldn’t feel any sexual desire for the opposite sex? Or is it that you want me to say that ANY homosexual thought will condemn a person to hell? What answer are you looking for?

  • Do you want me to say that Christ says that any homosexual thought is sinful and will condemn someone to hell? I have answered your questions, but didn’t give you the answer you were looking for. I will just say that to make you happy that people ARE condemned just because they cannot feel sexual desire for the opposite sex. Is that the answer you were looking for? Is THAT why Sodom was condemned BEFORE this incident?

  • The text clearly does NOT say they had unnatural relations *with other women.* Just saying what the text does NOT say is NOT making things up.

  • You’ve never answered my questions, Daniel.

    Where does Christ say that homosexuality is good?

    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);”

    Jude condemns it as such: Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire”.Why did the Lord rain burning sulphur on S&G after taking the only righteous one – Lot – out? Why did everyone else die? Why were no righteous people found in Sodom and Gomorrah?

    Why do you think they call it Sodomy? Why do you think sodomy is a sin? (edited)

  • nope….you have never answered my questions:

    Where does Christ say that homosexuality is good?

    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);”

    Jude condemns it as such: Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire”.Why did the Lord rain burning sulphur on S&G after taking the only righteous one – Lot – out? Why did everyone else die? Why were no righteous people found in Sodom and Gomorrah?

    Why do you think they call it Sodomy? Why do you think sodomy is a sin? (edited)

  • Will it make you happy for me to say that Christ NEVER said homosexuality was good and that any homosexual thought or any inability to feel sexual desire for the opposite sex will condemn a person to hell? I “agree” with you, it is the THOUGHT that condemns a person, as well as the inability to feel sexual desire for the opposite sex. Having 50 people demand that I come out to have sex with them is just “warm, loving and intimate?” YES, you are right!! Is this what you wanted me to say?

  • Where does it contain the exact phrase they had “unnatural relations *with other women?*” It merely states that “exchanged natural relations for unnatural.” “Unnatural” could mean a whole assortment of things, since it doesn’t specify just what they were.

  • What’s wrong with my answer that Christ NEVER said it was good and that it is the THOUGHT and/or
    the PROCLIVITY that condemns a person even before they engage in the act? Isn’t that what you wanted me to say? OF course, Sodom WAS condemned BEFORE the incident because they couldn’t feel heterosexual feelings and they had homosexual thoughts. Isn’t that the right answer?

  • I see the problem that you can’t even answer someone’s good faith question (not mine, I don’t expect intelligent responses from you) without acting like a pompous insulting d-bag. Matt 23 is a perfect primer on how Christians should treat hypocites. The irony of you invoking it was clear for me.

  • Just because you’re to stupid to comprehend my answer doesn’t mean the question wasn’t answered appropriately. Seeing the original poster has nothing more to say on the matter makes your opinion on the matter void and nonsensical.

  • Yes as it seems it’s the only language you understand. Sorry I had to lower myself to your level and mentality but we all make sacrifices from time to time.

  • What the Torah is talking about here is porneia. The verb used is ekporneusasai. If the woman was betrothed then sex with another man was adultery which is another thing altogether.

    Funny to hear you claim that an act described as “ekporneusasai” is “not really porneia.” ?

  • Also porneia is a term that can be used interchangeably with moicheia. Is porneia used in Exodus 22:15-16? That is when she was not betrothed?

  • I looked it up. Porneia has a broader meaning than moicheia. Porneia CAN be used to mean breaking a betrothal, but it can also mean incest. Moicheia would more specifically mean breaking a marriage vow or for a man to have sex with another man’s wife. Both terms can be used for idol worship. Also, read Matthew 1:18-19 where Mary was betrothed to Joseph and she was pregnant and he knew he wasn’t the father and he was thinking of divorcing her. Would this have been an issue had he not been betrothed to Mary?

  • In Deuteronomy 22 where it talks about a woman not found to be a virgin in verses 20-21 ALSO speaks about a woman who has sex while not being betrothed in verse 28 where she doesn’t face any penalties and she is not said to have committed porneia. In verses 22-26, severe penalties are faced when she is betrothed, however, as well as for the man who has sex with a woman betrothed or married to another man.

  • This is such a stupid conversation really because none of you has quoted Jesus on anything. Some of you quote Moses. Others quote Paul. None of that suffices for quoting Jesus. And Jesus did not address homosexuals, specifically. Jesus forbade fornication and adultery — that obviously applies to both heterosexual and homosexual activity.

  • You’re tying yourself in knots trying to avoid the obvious. If the woman is an unbetrothed virgin and marries the man (with her family’s permission, of course) who seduced her then porneia is not an issue, for sex is only legitimate as the consummation of a marriage. It is not the same case if she simply marries some other man and then is found not to be a virgin for whatever reason. Multiplicity of partners is the essence of what “porneia” is and that is what the laws of marriage and sexuality were designed to prevent — that the land would not be filled with lewdness (Lev. 19:29) but that husband and wife would together raise up godly offspring as God designed (Mal.2:15). And between the admonitions that there be no porneia among the sons and daughters of Israel (or later, the church) and that there be no adultery, and the directives that a man marry any virgin he has violated, that leaves no room for acceptable sexual expression outside of a legitimate marriage. A man having (in every sense of the word) his own wife and a woman having her own husband is the preventative for porneia. It is explicitly stated in Corinthians. What is so difficult about this?

    “Porneia has a broader meaning than moicheia.” Well, no duh! Hence Leviticus 20. This is what the Greek lexicon makes clear and you guys keep ignoring.

    “Also porneia is a term that can be used interchangeably with moicheia.” Except that it’s usually not. Jesus listed them separately in Matt. 15, and Paul listed them separately many times. There is a reason for that. Moicheia can be porneia, but not all porneia is moicheia. They are not the same.

    When I hear arguments like this I ALWAYS think of Greg Brady arguing with his dad: “You didn’t tell me not to drive. You told me not to drive OUR CAR. And I didn’t — I drove the neighbors’ car.” 🙂

  • I don’t think it is obvious that it was sinful for a woman to have non marital sex if she was not betrothed since there was absolutely no penalty for her, as opposed to the extreme punishment had she been betrothed. Women were supposed to be strictly monogamous IF they were married or betrothed to a man. Men were not expected to be monogamous throughout the OT. This may have changed in the NT. I know you disagree with many Biblical scholars that common as opposed to sacred prostitutes were often accepted, such Rahab the Harlot in Joshua 2 as well as Hebrews 11 and James 2. I looked up porneia and moicheia in my Greek English dictionary and there was very little difference in their meaning. The main difference would be that porneia has a bit broader meaning. Incest, for instance, could be called porneia, but not moicheia. The Greek dictionary does not list non marital sex as one meaning of porneia.

  • Also, the Deuteronomy 22 version of the non betrothed virgin has it that she was actually raped. Genesis 22 was that she was seduced. Jewish tradition states that the raped woman would have to consent to marrying the rapist. What you imply is that if she does not consent, then she would then be guilty of porneia.

  • Sodom was condemned BEFORE the incident because they were homosexual doing filthy things. Do you understand that?

  • “unnatural” means not as the Lord intended.

    Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

  • Many things could mean not what the Lord intended. It could mean heterosexual female cult prostitutes.

  • Of course I don’t agree with it, but I was just trying to paraphrase what your thinking. “Neglecting the poor and needy” does not mean they had homosexual thoughts. (Ezekiel 16:49)

  • Dan, they had homosexual thoughts long before wanting to have an orgy. Why do you not understand that God was going to destroy them, long before the angels got there. When the angels arrived, they just proved they had no righteousness – which God knew when he sent the angels.

  • No. He is very clear that homosexuality is unnatural. You need to take the blinders off. Why do you think Christ said nothing positive about homosexuality?

  • Nope. They were homosexuals long before the angels arrived. Why do you think God found no righteousness there before He even sent the angels?
    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);”

    Jude condemns it as such: Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire”.Why did the Lord rain burning sulphur on S&G after taking the only righteous one – Lot – out? Why did everyone else die? Why were no righteous people found in Sodom and Gomorrah?

    Are you still trying to suggest that God wanted to destroy them because they didn’t bring muffins to the orgy?

  • You would say they had homosexual thoughts, which alone would condemn someone to Hell. Ezekiel 16:49, on the other hand, states before the attempted gang rape of the angels, “And look at the guilt of your sister Sodom; she and her daughters were proud, sated with food, complacent in their prosperity, and they gave no help to the poor and needy.” Should I take your word over Ezekiel’s? Ezekiel is IN the Bible.

  • Then why were Lesbians not mentioned anywhere else in the Bible, including 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10?

  • I will state once more, Ezekiel 16:49 has a very different idea than you as to why God wanted to destroy them in the first place. Read the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. The rich man was condemned because he neglected the poor man Lazarus. The rich man’s sin had nothing to do with homosexuality, nor was the original sin of Sodom. Sodoms’ sin was virtually identical with the rich man in Luke 16.

  • I’ve had this conversation with someone else before. Deut.22 is often translated in rape terms but the actual words used do not necessarily mean rape. All it really says is that the man “puts his hands on her” and lies with her. It is the same language used to describe drawing a dagger or holding/playing a musical instrument. It is essentially the same scenario described in Exodus. Of course it does not exclude the possibility of rape, either, so the decision of whether or not to insist upon the marriage must rest with the woman’s family in order to prevent an even greater harm. It is to be expected that such a girl would eventually be given to another man with full disclosure of the facts and with perhaps an increased dowry (the fine paid) to make up for the previous loss of her virginity.

    In any case, the point remains that laws related to sex and marriage were meant to prevent promiscuity and multiplicity of partners and to ensure that children were conceived and born in appropriate conditions. The prescription for this was, and is, man + woman in lawful marriage.

  • Oh honey, you are grasping at straws. I’ve explained to you several times. Also, you have neglected the Peter scripture that I keep posting. “7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard): What do you think the “sensual conduct” was, when the first thing they want to do is sleep with the men. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist.
    You have been closing your eyes to reality Daniel. The rich man had nothing to do with Sodom and Gomorrah – that’s just another wish of yours. Like I said, it isn’t that they failed to bring muffins to the orgy.
    They didn’t protect the poor and needy – the allowed the men to try to fight their way into the house. You also, conveniently, leave out verse 50 – they were haughty and did an abomination before me.” One needs to be pretty haughty to expect someone to agree to a homosexual orgy. Daniel – look at the scripture!
    Daniel, you are hurting yourself – let alone other homosexuals.

  • That has nothing to do with Romans 1. Nothing at all. Lesbians were mentioned in Romans 1, Daniel.

  • But, you happily ignore verse 50. Verse 50 explains it very well.
    BTW – homosexual urges are not the sin, it is what you do with them that is the sin.
    Daniel, does satan have you so bound up that you cannot look at the next verse?

  • You were talking about what the sins of Sodom that God was unhappy with in Genesis 18 which was PRIOR to their attempted gang rape of the angels in Genesis 19. Ezekiel 16:49 describes WHY God wanted to destroy them prior to what happened in chapter 19. Ezekiel 16:50 describes what happened in chapter 19. The verses you quote from 2 Peter also refers to Genesis 19, since it refers to the rescue of Lot, which happened in chapter 19. I quoted Ezekiel 16:49 because you were talking about what their sin was prior to this incident. You were saying that their only sin was homosexuality all along, and that their neglect of the poor and needy just meant homosexuality. You have also insisted that it was a sin and a complete choice to have homosexual attractions and that anyone who lacked heterosexual attractions could readily choose to have them. You even claimed that Jesus taught this. I also argue that gang rape is wrong whether it is homosexual as in chapter 19 or heterosexual as in Judges 19. I also argue that heterosexual males will often rape other men in prisons.

  • Your god isn’t smart enough to know what Sodomites were going to end up trying to do, Daniel? Try Jesus sometime..
    Where does it say that about Ezekiel 16, Daniel?
    Where does it say that 2 Peter refers to Genesis 19?
    No, homosexuality is a sin. You misquote me on “attractions” That would make Jesus a homosexual, and He wasn’t – as I have said many times. Don’t put words in my mouth, hon.
    I said Jesus taught what? Provide a source honey……
    It did not start off as gang rape. It started off as an offer for sex – intimate sex.
    Now do some research, or you’re just telling tales again, Daniel. blessings.

  • Eric, do you know that Jesus is the Word? Do you know that Jesus is God? Do you know that the Bible is the word of God? Do you know that Paul spent three years learning from Jesus? Do you know that Paul taught what Jesus showed him? Do you know that the God breathed scripture?

  • You said homosexual attractions or feelings WERE a choice. You said Jesus taught this. I didn’t say you said Jesus was gay. When I said I struggled against homosexual attractions and tried to have heterosexual attractions unsuccessfully in psychotherapy for years, you accused me of making excuses. I didn’t say outward behavior was not a choice, I said it isn’t a choice which gender a person is attracted to. If it IS a choice whether or not to have attractions one way or the other(which it is not), then it would seem to follow it would be a sin to have any homosexual attractions at all. It would also be sinful not to be able to have sexual desire for the opposite sex.

  • Sandi, it is painfully obvious you need lessons in Bible history. God didn’t breathe anything into scripture. Stuff attributed to Moses was written at minimum 400 years after his era, and some of it, like Deuteronomy, may have been completely fabricated.

    By the way, Paul was not one of the disciples. I guess you don’t read the Bible itself much either.

  • You said yourself that Scripture interprets Scripture. There is absolutely no word used in all the Bible that means Lesbian. There IS a word for female cult prostitute and that is Qedeshah. Male cult prostitute is Qadesh. Both of these words occur more than once in Scripture. Cult prostitutes were also idol worshipers and Paul is clearly speaking about idol worshipers in Romans 1.

  • no daniel…you are wrong. You are not the person to actually decode the Bible for the next generation hon. Millions of people have lived before you and translated it properly. They were discussing women – lesbians

  • Homosexual attractions are a choice. The temptation is not.
    You do make excuses.
    Yes it is a choice which gender one is attracted to. One does not have to agree with satan.
    As far as scripture goes Daniel, there are two ways to read it. There is seeing what the scripture actually says, and there is putting your spin on what the scripture has said. You read into it something that is not there and that is why you cannot answer my questions, my friend. You do the latter to try to uphold your revision of the Bible, my friend. You need to be very, very careful Daniel as I’ve watched you do that with scripture after scripture. You see what you want to see, not what Christ is saying with it.
    Jesus loves you Daniel.

    2 Peter 3:9King James Version (KJV)

    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (edited)

  • I don’t put a “spin” on scripture. I interpret scripture in CONTEXT. You take scripture OUT OF CONTEXT. Many of my interpretations ARE based on good scholarship- such as the influence of Enoch on Jude, and 1 and 2 Peter, which the vast majority of Biblical scholars acknowledge. Your views are based on Biblical literalism. You yourself have a strong bias against homosexual persons which you yourself read into scripture. I also can read the Bible in the original languages, something which you are completely unknowledgable about. I answered all your questions thoroughly and well as well as completely correctly. My interpretations just didn’t confirm your bias against homosexual persons. You yourself could not answer any of my questions such as about the fallen angels in Jude 6. You also had no idea what σαρκος ετερας (sarkos eteras) meant. According to my Greek dictionary, this means different KIND of flesh. Obviously sarkos eteras means angels. You have a ridiculous notion that the men in Sodom were interested in “loving, warm, intimate sex,” an interpretation that completely belies the context in which the word is used. If you read Judges 19, the men ALSO asked to “know” the male guest, but they were given the concubine and brutally raped her all night. SURELY Yada did not mean warm, intimate, sex in that context at all. This is an instance where you showed that you don’t understand ancient languages or word usage. You might have good intentions, but these intentions are badly misdirected.

  • no. You write on scripture what you want it to say, my friend. Enoch, for the fourteenth time, is not scripture.
    You obviously cannot read the original languages, or you would not be making these errors. You flatter yourself. I’ve seen people much better than i correct you on it also.
    You write on scripture what you want it to say, rather than what it says, my friend, and you hurt people. You need to repent, Daniel.

  • I should have looked up Robert Gagnon on Sodom before. http://www.robgagnon.net/homosex7thDayAdvArticleSodom.htm He actually DOES say that Sodom and Gomorrah DID involve rape. He actually didn’t claim the men were asking for “warm, intimate, loving sex” with the angelic visitors in the story of Sodom. His argument however, is that rape would be a compounding factor, but not that if it was not rape, it would be OK. He also seems to say the same thing I think Leviticus 20:13 means and that is only anal intercourse, not oral sex. I actually don’t have much problem with being against anal sex, because it is an easy way to spread all kinds of diseases. However, Oral sex does not spread diseases nearly as much, and neither Leviticus nor the word Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 6:9 αρσενοκοιτης means oral sex, but rather only anal sex. It certainly made sense to ban Anal sex when there were no condoms or protective testing that people could do to protect themselves. Also, the Bible might be consistently negative about *anal sex* and sometimes even vaginal sex but it is never negative but always positive about loving persons of the same gender. He also acknowledged that ετερος σαρκος in Jude 7 refers to angels. Gagnon stated,
    “Jones is correct in thinking that “went after other flesh” refers to sex with the angelic visitors but fails in his assumption that “committed sexual immorality” has the same referent.”

    However, if one interprets the story through the book of Enoch, the word ekporneuo can mean to cross the line between humans and angels. So, I was actually surprised that I agreed with some things that Gagnon had to say. He apparently didn’t confirm everything you thought, such as the story of Sodom didn’t involve the intention of rape from the very beginning and he confirmed my contention that Jude 7 actually refers to Sodom going after angels.

  • I see. One day you like him, the next you don’t. I don’t care what Robert Gagnon says. I told you what he said before and you ran away with your tale (tail) between your legs. Daniel, you are purporting a lie and you need to stop.
    You could not answer my questions until you found a way to incorporate them in to your lie. lol. You are a fraud, and you are hurting people.
    For the fifteenth time. Enoch is not scripture.

  • You liked him before and now you don’t care what he says. I should have looked up what he actually said before I made a statement about him. I should not have conceded the point about Sodom being about rape without looking what he actually stated about it. I answered your questions each and every time you asked them. I am not giving up my fight for my own human dignity as a Gay person. People who spread venom on the Web need to be countered at every turn. I am also going to practice the Golden rule and not say “you are a fraud.” The Bible teaches that we should not “speak evil” of our neighbor. James 4:11 states, “Do not speak evil of one another, brothers. Whoever speaks evil of a brother or judges his brother speaks evil of the law and judges the law, you are not a doer of the law, but a Judge.” How come you don’t pay attention to such ideas in Scripture? You also falsely think that YOU decide who is going to Heaven and Hell, rather than God. You are guilty of slander. There are vice lists in Paul which states that people who slander others won’t inherit the Kingdom of God.

  • Daniel, you write your entire Bible about what you want it to say. Are you so tied up in homosexuality that you need to make Christ a liar? Justifying wrong behaviour does not lead to Christ. Accepting what Christ said leads to He and Heaven.
    Christ said that homosexuals are not going to see the Kingdom of Heaven, Daniel. You are fighting with Christ, not me.
    Worst yet, you are teaching a gospel that Christ never taught.
    Robert Gagnon, I like very much, but honey , I wouldn’t trust an interpretation of yours of what he is saying. You are allowing yourself to be a false prophet, and you are leading others to Hell. Bottom line.
    Galatians 1:8 – 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
    10 For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant[b] of Christ.”
    The curse is Hell, Daniel.
    Some more scripture on where you are sending people, Daniel – and yourself….

    Revelation 21:8 ESV

    But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

    Revelation 22: 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.”

    Jesus died for you should you choose to accept His gift of forgiveness and life more abundant, but only you make that choice. If you want to unrepentantly continue in sin, then you don’t want Jesus.
    Why are you trying to make it more difficult for others? That is where Galatians 1 steps in and tells you the result of teaching a different gospel.
    Hon….I’m fighting for you and you need to repent before it is too late.

  • Hebrews 10:26-27New International Version (NIV)

    26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”
    You have made yourself an enemy of God, my friend, and you need to repent. Blessings Daniel

  • Who made you into the judge? This Hebrews passage is really speaking of people who abandon their faith altogether. Hebrews 11:31 states that Rahab AS A HARLOT did not perish because she received the spies. Rahab was not considered to be an enemy of God just because
    she was a Harlot. We are Justified by Faith, not by being Heterosexual. Romans 5:1. Whoever believes in Jesus will not be not be condemned. John 3:18.

  • The false gospel was that we are justified by keeping all the Law, rather than by faith acting through Love. I don’t justify any and all kinds of behaviors. I am just saying homosexuality can be acceptable if certain conditions are met, such as not worshiping idols, as well as not being exploitive, not involving minors, etc. In virtually every text that homosexuality seems to be condemned, it is compounded by other Sins, such as idol worship, or gang rape. Gagnon seemed to acknowledge the compound Sins of Sodom. We know that Heterosexual marriage is absolutely not acceptable if it is compounded by idol worship, either (1 Kings 16:31).

  • Also, Robert Gagnon does NOT agree with me at all. However, he doesn’t make some of the ridiculous arguments that you make, such as Sodom was not at all about rape at first, or that Jude 7 doesn’t refer to angels. One thing that just occurred to me is that in Judges 19, what they ended up doing sexually was a whole lot worse than what Sodom did, such as raping and killing the concubine. YET, Gibeah was NOT destroyed.

  • If I were Lucifer I would appear to a Roman Emperor and suggest that he convert his people to a religion that worships the son of god.

  • Leave it to the miserable zealots to find any way to spread that guilt and misery to everyone around them.

  • Why are you miserable and guilty……..Oh wait the truth has that effect on hypocrites eh? Matt 23

  • I think we both appreciate scripture. My favorites are not the same as yours. The Bible is more of a Holy Guide rather than a Holy Book to me.

    You are failing to recognize the work of the Holy Spirit in those other churches you say are apostate. I think that’s a shortcoming on your part.

    Here are some of my favorite verses that you should be generously quoting —

    1. If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

    2. If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing.

    3. If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it, but if I didn’t love others, I would have gained nothing.

    4. Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud.

    5. It is not rude, it does not demand its own way, it is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged.

    6. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out.

    7. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.

    8. Love never fails, but where there are prophecies and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge, they will become useless. Love will last forever!

    9. Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture!

    10. But when the time of perfection comes, these partial things will become useless.

    11. When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.

    12. Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.

    13 Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.

  • ” Christians don’t judge. ”
    Wow, I would never say that. That should be reworded as ‘Christians shouldn’t judge’.

    ” Homosexuals are not allowable, or lawful in God’s eyes. ”
    But according to many of the laws of the land, especially same sex marriage, gay things are allowable, lawful and permissible.

    The definition of repentance from the Acts is ‘to believe and turn to the Lord’. Unless there is another definition found elsewhere, I’m not aware that ‘to repent’ means to start or stop doing anything but simply ‘believe’.

    A better understanding of how and why ‘homosexuality’ and ‘Christianity’ are compatible, an effort should be made to talk to Christian gays about the matter rather than relying on scripture alone.

    The Holy Spirit enabled the scripture to be written, just as that same spirit enables LGBT’s to express themselves openly.

  • So then you want to ignore the bible when it points to a sin that disagrees with your secular religion? So your problem come down to this your either believe all the bible or none which is it?

  • “Christians don’t judge” When repeating what the Lord has said, it is not judging.
    “Homosexuals are not allowable, or lawful in God’s eyes” – He said it is a sin worth of death, then turned around and died for them, should they accept His gift of life everlasting.
    Repentance is turning from one’s sin.
    There is no other authority but scripture. God does not bless what His word forbids.
    Homosexuals can do whatever they want, but if they want a life with Jesus and to end up in Heaven, they need to follow God’s instructions – repent and be baptized.

  • You might be interested in the following —

    The Kingdom of God is not in “word” (scripture verse), but “power” (the Spirit working in all of us especially those that believe)………..it’s not food and drink but “righteousness” (good attitudes, works and deeds) and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit……………..1 Cor 4:20 coupled with Rom 14:17

  • ” Repentance is turning from one’s sin. ”

    What’s easier, to repent from sin or cover it up?

    The answer is simple —

    ABOVE ALL, LOVE EACH OTHER DEEPLY, because love covers over a multitude of sins……..1 Peter 4:8

  • And Christ said to love Him is to follow His commandments – He taught that homosexuality is a sin, Billy.

  • You may want to check scripture a little more closely sir. #8 …1Corinthians 6:12-13 says, “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13You say, “Food for the stomach and the stomach for food, and God will destroy them both.” The body, however, is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

    You must use the word of God correctly. The context is in black and white. Paul the Apostle is giving the Corinthians a warning about their sinful behaviors. Sexual immorality is probably the most destructive sin in this world today because it is Lust. Lust my friend is a deadly sin. Sexuality is a sacred gift given by God in sanctity of marriage only. Any kind of sex whether it’s homo or Hetero outside of marriage is sin against God.

  • #7… Is also incorrect on your part. What bible version are you using? Or are you just saying what you want?
    Again, lets back up and understand the context of where this comes from. Romans…. Chapter 4:19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall.
    22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

    Those verses are literal verses about food and drink. They have nothing to do with sexuality. The bible is to be taken literally in its meaning (context), except for Jesus’ parables which were metaphors and Revelation is symbolism.

  • #6…. You say Man’s ways are of the Lord? That’s kind of vague. Here’s what Proverbs 20:24 really says…
    A person’s steps are directed by the Lord.
    How then can anyone understand their own way?

  • Oh and by the way my friend, I am a repentant homosexual myself. I was lost to homosexuality for most of my life but for the last 15 years was out. Just recently was convicted because of my faith. The Lord washed it away and now I am no longer gay. I find myself hating that sin but since I used to be one, I still love my friends and family who still are. So it is with love and compassion that we give our testimony about what the Lord did for us and start living for Christ TODAY and set an example for others to go by so they will want to know more and receive blessings from the Lord. But please sir I urge you to check and recheck your scriptures before you post them. They must be concise because it’s our responsibility to share the truth in an honest way. Thank you for listening. Good luck to you.

  • Repentant Homosexual here again my friend. I have to say you have some views that are very misrepresented. I strongly urge you to get the New International Version of the Bible. It’s so easy to understand. If you’re lucky enough you can find one with cliff notes and cross referencing. You say according to laws of the land, gays are permitted. You are right on that however!!… That is called worldly living. Man made those laws, not God. We must adhere to Gods law in order to get closer to him. Man will fall on his face in death with his own laws period. And the definition of repentance is to turn away from sin and seek the Lord First.

  • You can’t cover up sin. The Holy Spirit is omnipresent and omniscience, he is everywhere and he knows all. He is part of God and God is part of Him. He testifies on your behalf in front of God on judgment day. Nothing will be hidden. Repenting of your sins shows to the Holy Spirit and God that you are faithful and true. It’s part of worship. It is a sin to grieve or quench the spirit. If you need help my friend with clarification on things I’d be glad to help. My email is [email protected], the pleasure would be mine really.

  • I’m not sure where you are getting your information but you need to start at the beginning of the bible and know the history of the fall of man in Genesis and take it from there. Sexual immorality is any kind of sex, Hetero, homo, adultery, fornication, orgies, self gratification, etc OUTSIDE of Gods design for sex in marriage which must Bring Glory to God. If it does not bring him glory, it is sin. Sexual sins, not just homo, stem from the deadly sin of Lust. It is a selfish worldly pleasure that does not please God. If you want the short and to the point version… If it doesn’t make a baby to add to his kingdom, it’s sinful.

  • Romans 1:26…
    26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error……
    –you have to keep reading. You must understand the context. After it said women exchanged natural for unnatural, it said IN THE SAME WAY the men were inflamed with lust for one another. In the same way means…. Can you guess what it means? Lesbians!

  • Yes always check scripture. But you must check the context too. You can’t isolate a verse and draw your own meaning from it unless you understand how it’s being used literally. These are fundamentals of language, context clues, I should know because I’m a language teacher.

  • I examined far more context than you did. Lesbians are mentioned NO where else in Scripture, even by Paul. It could still mean all kinds of things. The likewise could mean “unnatural” but this would be different from men and women. It could mean the males likewise became cult prostitutes. You are just reading your own bias into the text. It could also be pointed out that not all the Church Fathers understood this verse to refer to Lesbians.

  • I always check the context. Persons like yourself who are biased against homosexuality often don’t.

  • If you read Deuteronomy 22, it was only punished for a woman to have sex IF she was betrothed to a man. It was only wrong for a man to have sex with another man’s wife. I looked up “porneia” in my Greek dictionary. Homosexuality is not listed as a definition. Porneia mainly refers to incest and idol worship.

  • If you read further up in the discussion, you will find that I am a repentant homosexual myself. There is no way I can be biased against it. I recognized the truth about my sexual sins when the Holy Spirit convicted me. Now I know from personal experience how gays are treated because I was one of them so I have full understanding how to approach the topic with love and compassion. That is exactly what that church did for this man in Dallas. It is said in the bible like mentioned in the article, it is how a sinner of the church should be properly disciplined. Truth sounds like hate to those who hate to hear the truth. That is said in the bible in Proverbs. In addition, in your posts, you keep saying “probably” and “could be”, that says you are not sure because you are not fully understanding. It’s all in plain sight. For those who have eyes, let them see and for all who have ears, let him hear.

  • If you read the bible in context from beginning to end, you will find the consistency throughout. There are no contradictions at all. You are putting your own ideas into it that make yourself think it’s all contradictory. When the fall of man began in Genesis with Eve, sin was introduced into the world. Over time, civilizations have fallen over and again by Gods judgment against their sins. The bible is the history of how sin has affected man. God is wanting us back. That is why he sent himself through Jesus so he could be the sacrifice for our sins because he knew we couldn’t get back to him without it. Sexual sins are only a small part of the general sins we commit. Sin is sin. God is holy and there is no room for any sin to be in his presence. So you can’t excuse homosexuality as being something that is allowable period. If you did, then you have to allow murder or theft or hypocrisy.

  • I don’t find what you say convincing at all. Personally, I tried to change from being Gay in my feelings years ago through Psychotherapy. The therapy helped me in many ways, but it had no effect whatsoever on how I felt. I felt this way long before I engaged in any activity. So I know such stories of change of yours is a bunch of crock. Jesus taught against hypocrisy. Don’t you see that you now claim to be straight while you still have homosexual attractions is pretending to be something you are not?

  • Psychotherapy has no foundation to stand on because it was invented by the world of man. The foundation you must trust in is faith in God alone and truly believing in him and his gospel. Yes it does work. I am living proof to that. You have no idea how much I used to think I was born that way. When Jesus washed that sin away, my heart was renewed. He removed my heart of stone and with it my attitude about homosexuality. I was deceived and lied to by Satan. Those who refuse to open their eyes and hear truth will not understand because they don’t have the Holy Spirit within themselves to be convicted of that sin. Therefore, you are mistaken in your ideals. I will pray for you my friend. Seek God first with all your heart and faith and ask him for the truth and he will show you so you can open your eyes and reach out to others about it and bring Him Glory to his Kingdom.
    And by the way I never said I was now straight. He took away my sexuality altogether. I’d rather be single all my life for him.

  • I have been a Christian for 40 years now. Most people I see who have claimed change admit to “temptations.” I DON’T have any doubt that people can go without having sex with others. I have had long stretches of not having sex. But just not having sex doesn’t prove you have no desire for men anymore, and undoubtedly you still do. I would believe you might not have sex, however.

  • I don’t deny I have temptations that enter my thoughts from time to time. It’s a constant battle with sin we must learn to overcome through Christ daily. What I do is immediately pray to him to help with that temptation. He offers the escape I need. We are only human and sin is constantly trying to destroy us. When you get rid of one demon, he flees but returns with 7 others to tempt you but it’s Jesus who chases them away when you recognize it and pray for it.

    There is no such thing as a gay Christian. You can’t be both. That is true hypocrisy.

  • At least you admit to temptations. But it is sad you think being heterosexual is more important than faith in Christ to being a Christian. Jesus placed LOVE way above heterosexuality as a value.

  • You must not have read my previous comment. I said Im not straight and would rather be single for the rest of my life for Him. You still can’t get your facts right sir.
    I guess you can’t see after all. You twist my words as well as those in the bible. Good luck to you and peace.

  • It shows that you don’t know very much about the Bible if you think I “twist” the scriptures. I can read the Bible in Hebrew and Greek. I bet you can’t. You just read your anti homosexual bias into the Bible.

  • What I DID read in your previous comment was this, “There is no such thing as a gay Christian. You can’t be both. That is true hypocrisy.” Pretending to be something one is not is hypocrisy, that is saying you are not Gay anymore, when you still have the feelings. I take offense at that statement and it shows that you have been brainwashed. It is from that statement that I derive that you think being heterosexual is more important than faith for being Christian.

  • I was at work and busy. I didn’t really have time to read these carefully. I now see where you said you didn’t claim to be straight. That is a start. Like I said, I do believe people CAN go without sex.

  • Hypocrisy is believing one thing and turning around and defying God by doing a sin like its no big deal. You can NOT be a true faithful Christian and turn around and sin and say it’s ok. It’s direct rebellion against God. You lie to yourself and God. Just like when you tell others not to do something but do it anyway. It’s basically the same thing. It becomes a lie which is a sin. Wake up dude!

  • I have Hebrew blood. My family immigrated from Poland in the early 20th century to escape the Nazi regimes that were rising against them. I am one of Gods chosen people from the 12 tribes of Israel and I am anointed with the Holy Spirit. Good for you learning a new language. I pray for you really my friend.

  • I just don’t agree with you. Clearly you have been brainwashed. I’ve read the Bible very carefully in the original languages which you don’t know and I know in my heart you are wrong. Long hair on a man is “unnatural” and “disgraceful” in 1 Corinthians 11:14-very same Greek words as in Romans 1:26-27. You don’t condemn long hair on a man, do you? Anyway, if Rahab could be accepted AND Justified AS a harlot in Hebrews 11:31 and James 2:25, why couldn’t God accept people as Gay if they express faith acting in Love? (Galatians 5:6). God doesn’t condemn people for things they don’t choose. AND, when I was trying to change, I certainly hoped it wasn’t genetic. But I honestly do believe people are born with their emotions, such as anger, hunger, fear, sexual desire one way or the other. What you said about your own temptations proves that you were born with homosexual desires. But we can choose what we do with our feelings. A person CAN choose not to act on their desire. Where I disagree with you is that I don’t think it is always wrong to act on desire or any feeling, for that matter.

  • I did live in Greece for two years, years ago, so I do know Greek pretty well. I took Hebrew and Greek in college, but I didn’t keep up with the Hebrew as much.

  • Well my friend, you are entitled to what you believe. I have not been arguing with you, only discussing what I truly believe to be right. It’s ok to discuss these important issues with each other. It’s how we learn. Best of luck to you.

  • That’s better. One aspect of learning the original languages is that most words mean more than one thing. Therefore you can’t say that any meaning in any Biblical text is usually “clear.” Meanings of words can be very nuanced.

  • At the College and Seminary where I work we also do Bible translations. We have people who speak Hebrew Greek Persian and Aramaic. We have a very good handle on the language of the time. Most of what you are railing against is very clear you just are unable to accept the fact that homosexuality is sin. Homosexual perversion is condemned in both the Old and New Testaments. Jesus clearly stated that marriage is for a man and a woman. There is no acceptance of sex outside of marriage for Christians. You will not inherit the kingdom of God while living the homosexual lifestyle.

  • Satan himself has read the Bible very intensely and searched the scriptures. You are not putting up with sound Doctrine. Romans 1 verses 26 and 27 is very explicit. Homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of heaven we know this beyond the shadow of a doubt.

  • You cannot be a practicing homosexual or one who would practice homosexuality if the opportunity presented itself. Homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. God is not a man that he can lie.

  • You are not twisting the scriptures you are outright lying. Homosexuality is condemned in both the Old and New Testaments. No one can control their desires but they can control what they do with those desires. If you are celibate and not a practicing homosexual then you like anyone else have a chance to enter into the kingdom.

  • Again people may have desires for all kinds of illicit Behavior. Many people resist Satan and resist temptation. I hope that you are among these.

  • Women were not to play the Harlot in their fathers homes. This meant that they were not to have sex with other men. If a woman pass herself off as a virgin and her husband realized it, he could it affect demand that she be stoned her to death. Women did not live on their own at this time. They lived within family units. The family was responsible for the woman.

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