Beliefs Culture Jana Riess: Flunking Sainthood Opinion Politics

Why Mormons should vote for Hillary Clinton

Democratic U.S. presidential candidate Hillary Clinton celebrates with her husband, former President Bill Clinton (rear), and their daughter Chelsea (R) at her caucus night rally in Des Moines, Iowa on February 1, 2016. Photo courtesy of REUTERS/Adrees Latif
Democratic U.S. presidential candidate Hillary Clinton celebrates with her husband, former President Bill Clinton (rear), and their daughter Chelsea (R) at her caucus night rally in Des Moines, Iowa on February 1, 2016. Photo courtesy of REUTERS/Adrees Latif

Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton celebrates with her husband, former President Bill Clinton (rear), and their daughter Chelsea at her caucus night rally in Des Moines, Iowa, on Feb. 1, 2016. Photo courtesy of REUTERS/Adrees Latif


A guest post by Robert A. Rees, Ph.D.

According to Nate Silver’s 538 forecast, as of this morning, Donald Trump has only a 32% chance of winning the U.S. Presidency, but an 84% chance of winning Utah’s six electoral votes.

As a Latter-day Saint, I ask myself how it is even remotely possible that Trump could win in Utah (and in other heavily Mormon states like Idaho, Wyoming, and Arizona) given the gargantuan gap between Mormon values and Trump’s morals. Trump’s behavior–much of it documented, affirmed by his own words, and on full display during the presidential campaign–stands in stark contrast to the moral standards espoused by Mormons.

The Church’s 13th Article of Faith would seem to predict that Mormons would oppose Trump for many reasons, but certainly so on moral grounds:

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men . . . If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

None of these adjectives could be used to define Trump. And yet many Mormons seem willing to see him as President of the country.

One of the things that might explain Trump winning Utah is partisanship. In the United States at least, Mormons tend to be conservative, patriotic and extremely loyal–and are heavily identified with the Republican Party, with Utah and Idaho, both with significant Mormon populations, vying for the title of reddest state in the last several presidential elections. As Emma Green reported in the September Atlantic, “Utah’s Mormon voters are a near-perfect symbol of conservative American patriotism.”

In regard to Trump, however, Mormon religious principles should, so to speak, trump patriotism. Except that Mormons have a deep, irrational antipathy toward Clinton. Rather than a love-hate, it is more like a hate-hate relationship with the Democratic candidate. Mormon attitudes toward Clinton are venomous, reflecting the extreme caricature of Clinton one sees in the darkest corners of the American popular imagination, in which she is variously portrayed as a criminal, a murderer and even demonic.

Mormons especially should resist the temptation to see Clinton as the incarnation of evil since well into the twentieth century, that is how Mormons ourselves were so portrayed. From sensationalist dime novels and rabid anti-Mormon literature of the nineteenth century to the Broadway musical, The Book of Mormon, Mormons have been portrayed variously as alien, cultish, demonic, sexually deviant and buffoonish. In the courses I teach on Mormonism at Graduate Theological Union and the University of California, I show how, from the beginning, Mormons were scapegoated as anti-Christian devils, complete with horns and tails, whose very existence threatened all that was good and decent in America. Mormons have sought, ever since they were driven out of the Midwest, acceptance and respectability from their fellow citizens.

The truth is, Clinton shares core Mormon values in a way that Trump never has and from all appearances never will. For example, she has worked tirelessly on behalf of the rights of women and children and has championed family values internationally.

She is also a committed Christian. As Tomicah Tillemann, an LDS speech writer, attests in an article in the LDS-owned Deseret News, “She is a woman of sincere faith [who] has spoken of her Christian faithfulness often and sincerely throughout her political career.”

As opposed to Trump, whose life has been devoted to promoting himself and serving his own interests, Clinton has dedicated her life to public and humanitarian service, both cardinal virtues of Mormon citizenship. According to the Washington Post, in terms of executive, legislative and foreign service, Clinton is one of the most experienced and qualified presidential candidates in recent American history. As part of her public service, Clinton has worked on behalf of the rights of disadvantaged minorities, including the disabled, immigrants and the poor, reflecting one of the four cardinal missions of the Mormon Church—“to care for the poor and needy.”

Clinton is also a champion of religious rights and freedoms, another core Mormon value. Again quoting Tillemann,

“Under her direction, we established a groundbreaking 70-member task force on religion in foreign policy that included members of the church. . . . She spoke out often about the persecution of religious minorities, even when doing so was politically unpopular. I saw her . . . advocate for the principle that people should be able to worship how, where, and what they may.”

The same could not be said of Trump.

By voting for and then supporting Clinton, should she be elected, Mormons could help promote harmony and unity in what is now a seriously divided and polarized body politic. In the Book of Mormon, which Latter-day Saints consider scripture, the resurrected Christ declares, “It is not my doctrine to stir up the hearts of men [and women] with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.” (3 Nephi 11:7) And another scripture enjoins Mormons to relate to others by “persuasion,” “long-suffering,” “kindness, “gentleness,” and “love unfeigned.” That injunction applies in all arenas, including politics.

Following such principles, Latter-day Saints could set the example for the healing that will be necessary following what has clearly been one of the ugliest and most contentious campaigns in our history. My hope is that Latter-day Saint virtues of fairness and generosity will cause Mormons to be less harsh in their judgment of Clinton and thus help prevent a candidate as odious as Trump from claiming Utah as a political prize.


Rees, BobRobert A. Rees, Ph.D., teaches Mormon and Religious Studies at Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley.


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About the author

Jana Riess

Senior columnist Jana Riess is the author of many books, including "The Prayer Wheel" (Random House/Convergent, 2018) and "The Next Mormons: How Millennials Are Changing the LDS Church" (Oxford University Press, 2019). She has a PhD in American religious history from Columbia University.


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  • I think if you’re going to convince Mormons to vote for Clinton, you’re going to have to address important issues on which Clinton disagrees with most Mormons. Chief among them is abortion. Trump botched Clinton’s position on late-term abortion by not understanding late-term abortion himself, but that doesn’t make Clinton’s view acceptable to most Mormons. At best, Clinton is no worse than Trump. This is why McMullin is so popular: there’s no compromise of values with a vote for McMullin.

  • Good article and op-ed. Most LDS liberals and/or Democrats I know will be voting for Hillary Clinton tomorrow, both card-carrying and “less active.” Since I am very much more pro-LGBT than pro-LDS at this juncture in my life, I plan to vote for Clinton as well. Mormon support for Trump, just like Evangelical support for Trump, simply invalidates any claims such people have to any sense of “moral superiority” to anyone.

  • No, no, no.

    McMuffin (who’s name shall always be McMuffin) is polling higher than Clinton at the moment, in Utah.

    THEREFORE, according to all the anti-third party rhetoric I’ve heard from you two-party lot over the years:


    CLINTON is spoiling the vote for MCMUFFIN, not the other way around!!

    If you want to beat Trump in Utah, and if everything you two-party types have told me for YEARS is true, the ONLY option is for pro-Clinton Mormons in Utah to get off their high horse, back McMuffin, and stop SPOILING the WHOLE ELECTION with their immature insistence that they vote for a candidate that just CAN’T beat Trump (in Utah)!!

    If you ignorant third-party Clinton voters would just abandon your imaginary chances of winning, and just GROW UP, be ADULT, and vote for McMuffin, who as one of the top two candidates is one of the only responsible choices to make, your added votes would DESTROY Trump!!

    But no, you jerks INSIST on SPOILING THE VOTE for McMuffin, and throwing your votes away on Clinton, third party hopeful, and splitting the vote, when you SHOULD be backing McMuffin!! Do you WANT Trump to WIN?!

  • And McMullin is beating Clinton in the polls. So Clinton is the spoiler here. If they truly wanted to beat Trump, they’d support McMuffin, not insist on splitting the vote and letting Trump take Utah.

  • “I plan to vote for Clinton as well.”

    (If you live in Utah:)

    Stop supporting a third-party candidate with no chances of winning. Grow up, stop splitting the vote and enabling Trump to win, and back McMullin. Clinton is a wasted vote, being the third party.

  • I’m sorry, are abortions never performed after 20 weeks? Or am I wrong about Clinton’s position? Would she restrict abortions after 20 weeks (or 22 or 24 or any gestational age)? Please clarify how “late term abortion is an anti-abortion Christian myth.”

  • I don’t live in Utah. I’m a California “Jack” Mormon. Being pressured to support Prop 8 of my “own free will” back in ’08 was what started this lifelong Mormon on the path to ending activity.

  • Reviling and slandering yet again. It’s what good Christians do.

    And a homeschooled girl is just about the last person I would ask for advice about a presidential election, especially of a fornicating, adulterous, four time bankrupt guy who only pretends to be a Christian to persuade home-skuled people that he is a moral choice.

  • At least pretend you’re interested in a rational discussion. I see you have ignored my response to your earlier comment. I am awaiting some kind of response.

  • Here is your rational discussion.

    Late term abortion is extremely rare– under 2%, and frequently far lower, depending on country. Mostly, it is done in cases of extreme fetal abnormality and probable death.

    Mrs clinton’s position is my position– it’s none of the business of complete strangers. Trying to ban late term abortion, whatever it means, is just the foot in the door to ban abortion entirely.

    The anti-abortion industry has been spectacularly ineffective in banning abortion at all. If they did, they would be out of jobs. And those who are against abortion keep giving them money.

    Imagine how many “babies” could have been saved if all of that time, energy, and money didn’t go to religious and political grifters, but actually went to offering alternatives to pregnant women.

  • LDS members, please vote AGAINST Hillary Clinton.

    Don’t indirectly vote for Hillary by voting for that legalized-gay-marriage McMullin bloke.

    I know its a bad choice between Trump and Hillary, but one candidate has already promised (de-facto) to REPEAL your constitutional freedom of religion.

    She’s promised to repeal mine as well. In fact, even the **atheists** and **nones**, will have their constitutional freedom of religion repealed by Hillary. Let’s be honest: Hillary’s appointees to the federal judiciary and Supreme Court will REALLY strip you of religious freedom for the next 25 years.

    You don’t want THAT outcome, do you? You don’t want her to do that to your KIDS, do you?

    So vote against Hillary by voting for **Donald Trump.** When you are faced with choosing the lesser of two evils, do NOT vote for the evil of two lessers !!

  • So less than two percent is the threshold at which we can call something a myth? Perfect, because about two percent of abortions are performed because the mother faces a medical emergency. Therefore (according to your thinking) abortions performed to save the life of the mother are a myth and should not be cited to justify abortion.

    I don’t know if most late-term abortions are performed because of fetal abnormality and neither do you. Current data is unavailable. However at least one study by the pro-choice Gutmacher Institute concluded “in many ways, women who had later abortions were similar to those who obtained first-trimester procedures” which would imply that most late-term abortions are performed fire nonmedical reasons. (Said study suffers from some defects that prevent it from being reliable evidence to answer this particular question but it’s the best we have. If you have a better study to back up your claim I would love to hear it.)

    None of your business, eh? So if a father beats his kid, also none of your business, right? It’s not your family after all.

    Your cynical comment about ineffectiveness could be made about literally any issue. Unions fail to get minimum wage raised? Must be that unions want it to fail so people will keep giving them money!

    Plenty of religious organizations and prolife advocates work hard to provide alternatives in the form of adoption and other health services for women. I agree that there is more to be done, but that doesn’t solve the moral and legal question.

  • Floydlee, I voted for Hillary because she has more experience, easy temperament, and better qualified by Trump. Trump is a loose cannon, a bully, a womanizer, and cheated on his wife. He is not gentleman and clearly does not have it to be TPOUS.

  • Floydlee, really! Clinton and the Democrats can’t and won’t repeal your freedom of religion as guaranteed by the First Ammendment. They will, hopefully, not let anyone (Jew, Christian, Muslim) use their religious beliefs to disobey the law, step on the rights of others or get special treatment. Obviously she will try to appoint judges that will uphold abortion and gay marriage. If you think these things constitute repealing your religious freedoms then you are mistaken.

  • And if the stop abortion what will happen? Where are the solutions to this huge problem in our society? Republicans offer no solutions, except to name call Hillary. She is a good Christian, mother, and has helped poor children and adults for 30 years. There is no abortions at 9 months…..unless harm to the mother (death of fetus, brain outside the body, cord around the neck, etc.). So if they stop abortion… anyone around before Roe v. Wade? It was coat hanger abortions, and trips to back ally butchers. We have a major problem with abortion and it is due to lack of education, society refusing to provide protection, the economy, and Republicans cutting programs that help unwed mothers. Elected Republican officials in general care only for the fetus until the cord is cut….once that is done….they cut funding for LIVING unwed mothers, school programs that give living children, cut programs for education for LIVING veterans, cut programs for living seniors, homeless, cut food stamps, and do not want health care for our veterans, seniors, and the poor. They don’t care about our homeless veterans or the high suicides of our veterans coming home. Following the example of Christ of caring for the poor and the sick — is not just for a Church — but for a city, a county, a state and our GREAT Nation. Hillary love our Nation….and will do a GREAT job as the first woman President of the United States.

  • It is the night before the election and channel 5 states Hillary was ahead of McMuffin…he is the spoiler and we appreciate anyone in Utah voting for him.

  • Zampona…Need to do some research..there are plenty of women who had late term abortions..which are RARE. As mentioned, they are for rare problems…and of course the mother did not want to do it (dead fetus, cord around the neck, brain out of the head or other major abnormality, etc.) But, that is not your choice, but the person who has to make that decision. And sometimes the mother’s life is at stack..and family pick the mother in some rare cases. It’s not as the crooked Trump stated..Hillary ripping them out. Years ago the case of Roe v. Wade made … so the law of the land made that decision to allow abortions. Of course, I don’t believe in them..but it is not my right to make these personal and tough decisions. By the way, before Roe v. Wade, women did have abortions…..with coat hangers, chimals, or a visit to a back ally abortion room. The issue is why do Republicans cut the funding to programs that help women to keep their child, use protection, and provide health care for them. One cannot just say STOP abortions, it does not work. As mentioned in another post…..Elected Republicans care only for the fetus until the cord is cut Then they cut the funding to any program to help young women and those who do what to save the baby.

  • “Hillary is all about Bloodshed of the Innocents!”

    And yet you support a serial adulterer, fraud, sexual predator, tax cheat, lout, liar, who has benefitted from slave labor and treating working people like garbage,

    If you think Trump gives a damn about an anti-abortion platform, you are a gullible tool. At no point does Trump actually care for your agenda. Just your vote.

  • No, you need to do some research. A 1987 study by the Guttmacher institute found that only 2% of later abortions (in this case, 16 weeks) were due to a previously undiagnosed fetal defect. Yes, that data is old, but unless you have something better, it’s what we have to work with. Abortion should no more be a woman’s choice than should infanticide. Yes, there are rare circumstances in which a woman’s life or long term health is threatened by pregnancy, or where there is a fetal defect so severe that the child is unlikely to survive long past birth. Absolutely abortion should be legal in those circumstances. But if the law were to limit abortion, it would be no more interfering with personal choice than laws prohibiting child abuse (not your family, right?).

    The idea that abortion saves women’s lives because women perform dangerous illegal abortions with coat hangers is largely a myth. Maternal deaths were on their way down long before Roe v Wade, and there was no uptick in abortion related deaths after Chile banned abortion in 1989.

    Most republicans I have seen have not threatened to cut funding to women’s health programs across the board. Instead, most want to redistribute funds to health programs that don’t kill unborn human beings. But what republicans want is beside the point, as I am not one. Absolutely we should fund programs that help women in crisis pregnancies and help children in foster care. But lack of funding doesn’t justify permitting the willful killing of human organisms.

  • I’m not sure why you responded twice with essentially the same material, but to add to my other response: I am not a Republican, so I don’t answer for them. Hillary Clinton is an opportunist and a panderer. She seeks power for its own sake, and supports a number of policies I can’t get behind. Having said that, she’s better than the alternative.

  • As a Mormon I can tell you exactly why you should not vote for hillary, because she’s corrupt, dishonest, racist, careless with SAP nuclear weapons secrets on live television, and the person who funneled weapons and cash through Saudi Arabia to create ISIS.

    Forget trump and hill, vote for Jill Stein!

  • Here one finds that long-term, and highly respected, peace-activist Helen Caldicott presents the premise that Hillary has never seen a war she did not like. I am quite concerned that Hillary is too much a war hawk, too much a Russian-phobe, and too much a neo-conservative interventionist. I did not raise children to see them die in some useless war for the rich. I did not work to create the life I have for myself and my family to see it vaporized in a war caused by a woman who thinks every problem is a nail and the military is a hammer. Remember the warnings from Spencer W. Kimball and Ezra Taft Benson about making the military into a modern idol and false patriotism.

  • I would suggest changing one word…. Use Mormonism/Joseph’s Myth instead of Trump…. “Trump’s behavior–much of it documented, affirmed by his own words, and on full display during the presidential campaign–stands in stark contrast to the moral standards espoused by Mormons.” Unless you consider the true history of the Mormon church as espoused by it’s leaders. Joseph Smith lied about his polygamy to his own brethren. The golden tablets story is more mythology than fact… a rock in a hat is factual. The Church hides its financials like Trump hides his taxes. It is ashamed of it’s past but never admits it… think “Mountain Meadows” It persecutes the persecuted… think Gays. It’s demeans women…think Priesthood. It wants to kick good people out of the country club, think John Dehlin. It is more concerned about PR and building “the brand” than actual charity. The church gives less than 1% to actual outside charity… similar to Trump’s foundation. Failed banks (Kirtland), failed Casinos. No the church is exactly like Trump and is in the closet and afraid to come out and admit it. Trump will demand ultimate obedience and punish those who condemn him, does that sound like any church we know? Money, Power, and blind Obedience are Trump’s ultimate aphrodisiac… so it is with LDS inc. Trump is willing to exploit the least thoughtful amongst us and is adept at appealing to their base emotions to achieve it. Powerful people hate competition. Mormonism lashes out when confronted with the truth about itself. Mormons believe their own poll numbers even when independant others have vastly different results and numbers. Living in a myopic bubble is the one constant between both parties. Too bad Trump can’t be sustained “unanimously” like the Mormon “beloved leaders”. The person closest to Mormonism and Joseph’s Myth is The Donald…. believe me.

  • This article is just wrong . . . where do I begin.

    First, the appeal to a sense of value isn’t really, instead, it’s an effective tool for guild-tripping Mormons who support Trump. You mistakenly assume that we Mormons should vote according to the morals of the candidate. If that were the case, both major party candidates are utterly disqualified. You’re clearly smart enough to know that this is not a black and white world we live in, yet you fail to acknowledge it in the article and realize that we don’t have candidates that embody those virtues. Sure, I can find some of those things in each candidate, but they are both human and have fallacies. I see this time and time again in “articles” that try to sway opinion. I call it guilt-baiting. It’s wrong. Stop doing it. A Ph.D. should know better.

    You consistently generalize Mormons, but have no data to back it up. How many Mormons have you polled against control groups to determine that they have an “irrational antipathy toward Clinton”? This is disingenous and misleading and is as bad as Mrs. Clinton calling many Trump supporters “deplorables”. It reeks of the inability to disassociate your passions and pre-concieved ideas from real facts. You’re making poor generalizations, perhaps based on a small subsampling in Berkely, but poor nonetheless. Shame on you for making them and using them in your fallacious arguments.

    You state that Mormons should resist the temptation to see Clinton as the “incarnation of evil”. They should do the same for Trump. It is utterly clear to even a fool that the modern media engine favors Clinton and has consistently and regularly been far more critical of Trump. You feed into the false picture that they paint. Stop. Do your own research. Stop watching CNN and Fox and MSNBC and others. Start finding out things on your own. Stop quoting other people’s opinions to support your allegations.

    You continue to quote scripture as reasons to vote against Trump, but those very same scriptures can be applied to Clinton as well. Go back and check the election of 2008. Hillary was stirring up the hearts of men against Obam. It’s part of politics. Christ’s doctrine is meant for us individually. Don’t stir up the hearts of your readers. Of course, in your defense, this article may not be applicable to such. Your intent may not be to stir people to anger, but you should realize that people are passionate about the presidency (as they should be).

    What bothers me the most about your opinion is that it really doesn’t address what Trump voters see in the man. Sure, there are outliers, who genuinely think Trump is a good guy or who see Trump as an affirmation of their own terrible prejudices, but it’s not the majority. It’s not what’s galvanizing people. Trump has stood against the Republican party and won. He stands against the Democratic party. He has boldly said that the same crap going on in Washington isn’t working. It sucks. It’s bringing the downfall of our nation. Career politicians who care about themselves are ruining our nation, not because they are snakes, but because they are trying to control so many aspects which touch our lives. Factories in rural America are gone, utterly gone. Those small towns which were the embodiment of America, have been devastated. The existing status quo doesn’t care. Oh, they may say they do, but they don’t.

    Trump supporters believe (likely wrongly), that he can turn that around. They see a man who hasn’t been a politician his whole life. Who has failed, lost it all, then regained it again. They see imperfection and a man who is willing to be imperfect, but one who claims he will fight for them. He’s different because he hasn’t been in politics, because he’s not a Clinton or a Bush. Voters saw the same thing in Barack Obama, for good or ill (even though Obama was a junior senator, they didn’t see a career politician). Trump supporters are willing to take a chance on him, just like many people took a chance on Obama.

    This election isn’t about morals, regardless of what you and the media may want to believe. This election is about corruption. Trump supporters see it deeply embedded into our political machine, and they are utterly fed up with it. If that means taking a chance on a sleazeball guy like Trump, they’ll take it.

  • Why so many Mormons are supporting Trump is easy — they understand the evil that is Clinton, both in character and in policies, and so choose what the see as the less evil outcome even if that mean supporting a murderous, vicious, honorless thug like Trump. Yes, that violates the principle our own scriptures mandate for supporting only the good, honest and wise as our leaders; but when the potential outcome of standing by our principles is so high the temptation to give in to expediency is strong.

  • I’m a Mormon, but not necessarily a Utah Mormon. I was born in the state and lived in Utah through college, but I’ve lived outside of Utah for most of my adult life.

    I’m not voting for Trump for the reasons given in the article. I’m not voting for Clinton because I don’t trust her and because she favors a form of government I oppose. I had planned to vote for Johnson but changed to McMullin because he advocates limited government and I think he is honest. McMullin won’t become President, but I voted for him because I didn’t want the guilt that would come from my voting for Clinton or Trump.

  • If you are going to insist on rational dialog, perhaps you ought to engage in it.

    “I don’t know if most late-term abortions are performed because of fetal abnormality and neither do you.

    Here’s some information, easily available. ”

    Australia: As of 2015, South Australia is the only Australian state or territory to keep reliable abortion statistics. During 2012, 92% of abortions were performed before 14 weeks’ gestation, 6% between 14–20 weeks, and 2% (n=96) at a later stage. Of the 96 abortions carried out beyond 20 weeks, 53 were due to actual or probable fetal abnormality.[10]

    Canada: During the year 2009, 29% of induced abortions were performed before 8 weeks, 41% at 9 to 12 weeks, 7% at 13 to 16 weeks and 2% over 21 weeks.[11]

    England and Wales: In 2015, 8% of abortions occurred after 12 weeks; 0.1% occurred at or over 24 weeks.[12]

    New Zealand: In 2003, 2.03% of induced abortions were done between weeks 16 and 19, and 0.56% were done over 20 weeks.[13]

    Norway: In 2005, 2.28% of induced abortions were performed between 13 and 16 weeks, 1.24% of abortions between 17 and 20 weeks, and 0.20% over 21 weeks.[14] Between February 15, 2010 and December 1, 2011, a total number of ten abortions were performed between 22 and 24 weeks. These have been declared illegal by The Norwegian Directorate of Health.[15]

    Scotland: In 2005, 6.1% of abortions were done between 14 and 17 weeks, while 1.6% were performed over 18 weeks.[16]

    Sweden: In 2005, 5.6% of abortions were carried out between 12 and 17 weeks, and 0.8% at or greater than 18 weeks.[17]

    United States: In 2003, from data collected in those areas that sufficiently reported gestational age, it was found that 6.2% of abortions were conducted between 13 and 15 weeks, 4.2% between 16 and 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks.[18] Because the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s annual study on abortion statistics does not calculate the exact gestational age for abortions performed past the 20th week, there are no precise data for the number of abortions performed after viability.[18] In 1997, the Guttmacher Institute estimated the number of abortions in the U.S. past 24 weeks to be 0.08%, or approximately 1,032 per year.

    1997 for guttmacher?

    “None of your business, eh? So if a father beats his kid, also none of your business, right? It’s not your family after all.” What we have here is a difference in definition of what constitutes a person. I’m not a fetus worshipper. Until that fetus can survive outside of its mother’s womb, it is not a person. In your example, we have demonstrable harm to a child. Though I don’t much care for abortion, I would not insist on the right to regulate other people’s loves, marriages, and families.

    “Plenty of religious organizations and prolife advocates work hard to provide alternatives in the form of adoption and other health services for women.
    ” And yet still, millions of abortions are performed every year. Still, millions, or hundreds of millions, or billions have gone into the pockets of the anti-abortion industry, just have they have gone into the antigay industry.

  • Most of your cited statistics get at the frequency of late-term abortion, which I don’t dispute (I don’t think their infrequency makes them irrelevant, as I already pointed out). What I do dispute is the reasons for which those abortions are performed. The only statistic you cited that gets at that question was this: “Of the 96 abortions carried out beyond 20 weeks, 53 were due to actual or probable fetal abnormality.” By that count, almost half (45%) of late term abortions were for reasons other than fetal abnormality.

    “What we have here is a difference in definition of what constitutes a person.” True. But why is your definition inherently better? Where do you draw the line between viability and non-viability? Why is that relevant? An infant cannot survive on its own, so is that not a person? Conception is the only clear-cut line. It’s the point at which a new human organism is formed. Abortion is a demonstrable harm to a human organism, and thus worthy of protection by the law. Human life is so important that we ought to protect it at the first moment we can identify an individual human being. You can disagree with that, but that disagreement ought to be settled in legislatures and at the ballot box, an opportunity we don’t have because unfortunately the Supreme Court has taken upon itself to create rights never mentioned in the Constitution and never ratified by the People.

    “And yet still, millions of abortions are performed every year. Still, millions, or hundreds of millions, or billions have gone into the pockets of the anti-abortion industry, just have they have gone into the antigay industry.” I still don’t see how this is relevant. Millions of dollars go to the pro-abortion industry. What’s your point?

  • Well done!

    I too am puzzled by how a Christian or Mormon could vote for trump. My guess is that they believe the crapola invented by republicans about her. The fact that 30 years and millions of dollars have been spent trying to “get” her, but she’s been charged with zero, means a great deal. In fact, that’s the crux of it. Accusations mean nothing. They’re a dime a dozen and completely irrelevant. If Sec. Clinton had ever, Ever, done something criminal we’d all know it by now.

    Sec. Clinton is a good Christian woman. We’ll be referring to her as Madame President very soon.

  • I have been saying all the long, either way it points to being qualified to be president.

    1) She is a put upon innocent who is the victim of hysterics ; or
    2) She is an evil genius with prosecution evasion skills which would put Meyer Lansky to shame.

    Both indicate a level of competence and skill which Trump with his hundreds of pending lawsuits and tons of evidence of improprieties in business can’t match.

  • “What we have here is a difference in definition of what constitutes a
    person.” True. But why is your definition inherently better?”

    Because it is far more rational. A fetus can’t be a person because it has no independent autonomous existence. It only exists at the will of its mother. No person has such a conditional existence ever. So its mother is the only person in the equation. You can’t treat a fetus like a person without attacking the personhood of its mother.

    “”And yet still, millions of abortions are performed every year. Still,
    millions, or hundreds of millions, or billions have gone into the
    pockets of the anti-abortion industry, just have they have gone into the
    antigay industry.” I still don’t see how this is relevant. Millions of
    dollars go to the pro-abortion industry. What’s your point?”

    That it is just a big grift for conservatives.

    It raises money with no expectation of useful action to take place. 40 years and several conservative dominated government’s later and Roe v. Wade is no closer to being overturned nor abortion rights being banned. Nor is it ever likely it will. [Just like people expecting marriage equality to be reversed] The anti-abortion platoform acts as a way to fill political coffers and get working class and middle class people to vote against their economic interests. Promises that will never be kept.

  • “Sec. Clinton is a good Christian woman.”

    Face palm. Did I somehow get transported into an alternate universe? Firsthand accounts of her abusing and cursing her protective details abound. She is no stranger to f-bombs and other pithy invectives. Nobody disputes she suggested “droning” Eric Snowden. Her apologists insist it was just a joke. Maybe it was. I’m not promoting The Donald as a polar opposite. But your reference to her seems so demonstrably wrong.

  • You’ve got a good handle on all the claims, accusations and rumors ever propagated against Sec. Clinton. You are illustrating exactly what I said in my initial comment.

    The face palm may be better for you in that you believe every tall tale those years and millions of dollars have bought. They’ve been very effective.

    (BTW, using profanities does not preclude one’s status as a Christian.)

  • Actually isn’t using profanity a sign of being a Christian?

    “Jesus H. Christ! that hurts!”
    “Holy S–t!”
    “God F–ing Damn!”


  • Enter the mental gymnastics often reserved to religionists (but certainly not exclusively) who once they have adopted a position only double down in the face of facts. Tall tales? Everything I stated is documented. You can choose to disbelieve the witnesses. But your response hearkens to TBMs who nullify information that impairs their narrative as just “anti-Mormon” lies. I use this reference not knowing a whit what your religion is. But this blog is a Mormon-centric blog.

  • Really??? I find this article to be very hypocritical of Mormons, actually doesn’t surprise me though!!! Vote for a person that not only fully believes in abortion but late term abortion!!!! So many reason why I quit being a Mormon 20+ years ago!!! Y’all are the worse judgemental hypocritical group that I know!!!

  • I’ve aid the same thing a number of times. She is either an evil genius not comparable to any other evil genius in the history of the world. In which case, she doesn’t need the election. Nor does she need the Clinton Foundation to amass more money than god.
    Or, this is all trumpery.

  • “This election is about corruption. Trump supporters see it deeply embedded into our political machine, and they are utterly fed up with it. If that means taking a chance on a sleazeball guy like Trump, they’ll take it.”

    And therein lies the sickness.

    They are concerned about corruption, so they will elect a thoroughly corrupt person. They’re the little guys, and they are certain the a billionaire has their interests at heart. They are moral; Christians, and so will choose someone of demonstrable immorality.
    As Stephen Donaldson wrote in his “Thomas covenant” books, corruption is becoming that which you hate.
    They aren’t the solution to the problem. They ARE the problem.

  • Hahahahaha!
    There is lots of profanity that doesn’t involve using god’s name in vain so not breaking a commandment. In my opinion it’s more fun and creative. For instance, “Cheetoh-faced, Ferret-wearing, Sh*tgibbon.” (That’s a name the Scots created for trump. They don’t care for him.)

  • “It is the night before the election and channel 5 states Hillary was ahead of McMuffin”

    Aggregate polls disagreed. Plus most McMuffin voters would go to Trump if faced with a Clinton/Trump choice. Most Hillary voters would go McMuffin if faced with a McMuffin/Trump choice. Therefore, Clinton is the spoiler.

  • It’s a sign that we ALL are sinners and need a Savior from the lethal consequences of sin.

    ◄ Romans 5:8 ►
    But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

  • For those who don’t “care for YOU” ….. what should we call you ?

    Is this the way CIVILIZED people think? Not!

  • It looks like most Americans have not been taken in by all of the obvious liberal-socialist lies – like yours!

    I have been saying all along that Americans are not stupid and that they will swallow and endure only so much of liberal-socialist, feculent politics before they puke it back up in their face and send them away to clean themselves up and act like patriots of a Republic.

    That was NOT difficult to predict … it is not quantum physics!

  • Yeah…. that reminds me of what happened to King Nebuchadnezzar, ruler of Babylon.

    DANIEL 4:28
    All this happened to King Nebuchadnezzar. 29 Twelve months later, as the king was walking on the roof of the royal palace of Babylon, 30 he said, “Is not this the great Babylon I have built as the royal residence, by my mighty power and for the glory of my majesty?” 31 Even as the words were on his lips, a voice came from heaven, “This is what is decreed for you, King Nebuchadnezzar: Your royal authority has been taken from you. 32 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like the ox. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes.” 33 Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled. He was driven away from people and ate grass like the ox. His body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a bird. 34 At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever. His dominion is an eternal dominion; his kingdom endures from generation to generation. 35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?” 36 At the same time that my sanity was restored, my honor and splendor were returned to me for the glory of my kingdom. My advisers and nobles sought me out, and I was restored to my throne and became even greater than before. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble.

  • YOU WROTE: “”This election is about corruption. Trump supporters see it deeply embedded into our political machine, and they are utterly fed up with it. If that means taking a chance on Trump, they’ll take it.”

    ~~~~~ You sure got that RIGHT !!!

  • “It looks like most Americans have not been taken in by all of the obvious liberal-socialist lies – like yours!”

    They took in obvious extreme conservative lies instead. Go figure.

    Where in Trump’s record as a businessman has it ever shown he has been capable of:
    1. Keeping his word to supporters
    2. Giving a damn about people who work for a living
    3. Holding to a position he couldn’t weasel out of
    4. Taking full responsibilities for running a venture

    You guys wanted him. Now you got him. Its going to be a wild ride.

    I am glad Hillary Clinton is out of the way. Now Democrats can stop being so accomodationist to the right wing.

  • BERKLEY, PHD………..I smell an AGENDA here…..PIZZA anyone? yea this guy rees definitely LOVES PIZZA ………i can tell (pizza gate anyone???? look it up wikileaks ect……….GO WITH THE HOLY GHOST……HE doesnt have an agenda like rees does.TRUST ME but who am i ………nobody really……hey rees what do you like on your pizza…………i dont want to know

  • We’ll be referring to her as Madame President very soon.

    Your confidence is the funniest aspect of your being chronically wrong. You’re a fool.