Beliefs Culture Ethics Faith Jonathan Merritt: On Faith and Culture Opinion

Ex-gay pioneer Joseph Nicolosi is dead. That’s good news for LGBT people he hurt (COMMENTARY)

Two men kiss in front of a group of evangelicals protesting the 2011 London Pride.

(RNS) When I learned that “ex-gay therapy” pioneer Joseph Nicolosi had died, my first response was, “Thank God.” And not like, “Thank God, he’s in a better place.” More like, “Thank God he isn’t around to destroy any more gay and lesbian lives.”

I don’t contend that this was the best response. Or the holiest. And I’m not even proud to share it with you. But that’s what I felt, plain and simple.

If you’re not familiar with “ex-gay therapy,” it is a therapeutic approach built on the assumption that sexual orientation can be changed. That is, that gay people can be made straight with enough of the right kind of counseling. It treats homosexuality as a curable mental health disorder, and also goes by the names “reparative therapy” or “conversion therapy.”

Reports of what is involved in this kind of “therapy” vary widely. In the past, some used electroshocks or nausea-inducing drugs to associate same-sex erotic urges with pain. Some include “naked therapy” where patients are stripped of their clothes. And some patients, including one I spoke to recently, have been encouraged to watch straight pornography.

Due to the scandalous nature of these practices, most “ex-gay” therapists claim they mainly utilize talk therapy. At it turns out, this is only a marginally positive development.

As numerous studies have shown, “ex-gay therapy” simply doesn’t work.

It’s so terribly ineffective that the largest ex-gay ministry, Exodus International, shuttered after admitting that 99.9 percent of participants did not experience a shift in orientation. And other ministries who were active in promoting ex-gay therapy, like Focus on the Family, have shifted their attention to other matters. The main research used as support for “ex-gay therapy” was conducted by Robert L. Spitzer, who later apologized and admitted his data was tainted, unreliable and misinterpreted. As a result, fewer than one-quarter of Americans believe it works.

Joseph Nicolosi in a promotional video.

The real problem with Nicolosi’s “therapy” is not its ineffectiveness but its harmfulness.

Among patients, it has been shown to create heightened levels of anxiety, distress, depression, and suicidal tendencies. Every major medical association has repudiated the practice, and some states have outlawed it for minors. The horror stories told by former patients are numerous and are so sad that they are difficult to read at length. (For a milder account, there’s the story of how Nicolosi drove one teen to “the brink of suicide.”)

Even most conservative Christians have now abandoned their support for “reparative therapy,” but somehow Nicolosi did not follow. He continued to promote his work as one of the few final practitioners.

Still, I cannot rejoice over Nicolosi’s death. Instead, I wish he had lived long enough to shut down his clinic, repudiate his work, and apologize to the countless people he harmed.

I’m sorry for all the family members and friends who doubtlessly miss their departed loved one. I know they must be grieving, and I pray God meets them in their mourning.

But I’m not sorry Joseph Nicolosi will no longer profit from peddling debunked pseudoscience.

I’m not sorry he won’t be able to spread a false hope that people can cleanse same-sex attractions through a special kind of counseling.

And I’m not sorry that he will no longer be able to sow hopelessness and despair among LGBT youth, contributing to their disproportionate depression and suicide rates.

Christians believe that upon death, we end up in an eternal place surrounded by our faithful ancestors and immersed in God’s presence. Christians refer to this place as heaven. I imagine that when Nicolosi died on Wednesday (March 8) and entered eternity, he was shocked to find LGBT people there, too. Many of them, I imagine, entered that eternal realm prematurely because of his messages. He’ll have plenty of time to apologize to them now.

I do not believe Nicolosi was an evil man, but it seems undeniable that he perpetuated one of the greatest evils to come from the Christian community in the last half century. On Facebook, his wife said, “Dr. Nicolosi had always hoped for his legacy as the creator of Reparative Therapy to go on.”

Well, I hope it does not. I hope it too will also pass from this earth.

May it be so.

About the author

Jonathan Merritt

Jonathan Merritt is senior columnist for Religion News Service and a contributing writer for The Atlantic. He has published more than 2500 articles in outlets like USA Today, The Week, Buzzfeed and National Journal. Jonathan is author of "Jesus is Better Than You Imagined" and "A Faith of Our Own: Following Jesus Beyond the Culture Wars." He resides in Brooklyn, NY.

1,164 Comments

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  • I have to agree with Joe Carter who said that you were ‘a person low character’. Yikes Jonathan.

  • This piece is ridiculously unobjective. Dr Nicolosi did talk therapy and wrote academic books on his theory and practice. He didn’t perform electrocution or naked therapy and other things you’re lumping in with his therapeutic practice. If you want to write “news,” 1st do your research, rather than merely spilling your feelings. Why someone with same-sex attraction must simply embrace those feelings is the big elephant in the room that people like you never answer. Why you don’t even think to consider people who are so grateful for such therapy and who report success: never mentioned.
    If someone is fine with their SSA, fine, it’s their business. If not, still their business. Therapy is supposed to be inherently client-centered, not controlled by someone else’s popular agenda. And that cuts both ways.
    People with SSA have been marginalized for millennia. But now people who don’t identify with their SSA are the ones marginalized, by pieces like these. I love your work, Jonathan, but on this topic you are very one-sided.

  • “You can be sure you’ve made God in your own image when you find that God hates all the same people you do.” — Anne Lamott

  • People who use the term “SSA” are generally trying to pretend that homosexuality does not really exist and is some kind of character issue.

    “Why you don’t even think to consider people who are so grateful for such therapy and who report success: never mentioned.”

    Because they do not exist.

    “Therapy is supposed to be inherently client-centered, not controlled by someone else’s popular agenda.”

    Except it isn’t therapy, nor client centered. It is controlled by an agenda to attack gays under a religious pretext. People are generally coerced or outright forced into undergoing what amounts to physical and mental abuse under the phony pretense of therapy.

  • I take it this is an opinion piece, an editorial, rather than the dry objectivity you crave. But I suggest the reason Mr Merritt has not heard from scores of people grateful for reparative therapy is because they don’t exist, not in large numbers anyway. I know hundreds of people who tried for years and decades to change their orientation, but to no avail. Many of them nearly despaired until they accepted their orientations as valid. On the other hand, I also now know lots of same-sex couples who are grateful for their relationships of mutual support and love. Perhaps that is the elephant in the room: the reality that gay people can love too. Imagine.

    I trust Dr Nicolosi now realizes his mistakes. I hope the Lord appoints him to work hard interceding for LGBTI people and couples, that they may be protected from scorn and attack by people who have no clue.

  • He told parents, and anyone else who would listen, that there was something “wrong” with gay people, and they needed to be “cured”. This is the classic con artist scam – convince people they need something only the scammer can provide, then sell it to them. He resolutely ignored all scientific consensus, destroyed families, drove people to suicide, and took money for it. “I do not believe Nicolai was an evil man…” Really? What more evidence do you need? He murdered by proxy and I’m delighted he’s dead. It’s only a shame his abominable ideas and practices ideas haven’t entirely perished with him.

  • As always, the Christian community is divided when we should not be.

    Collectively, we’re painfully weak in providing love, truth, hope and encouragements in this area. And worse yet, especially weak in what should be the incalculable power of the Holy Spirit to see people **healed, cleansed, delivered, and victorious** over homosexual temptations and sins, just as with any other temptations and sins.

    God Himself says in Jeremiah, “I am the God of all flesh, is there anything too hard too hard for Me?” And we Christians shamefully & collectively reply, “Yeah Mr. God, we tacitly or overtly support Gay Marriage because gay-self-identity and lgbtqia+ and every other related issue, is obviously too hard for YOU. We’ve given up on Your huge Bible promises like 1 Cor 6:9-11 and 1 Cor 10:13.”

    Not saying he was perfect, but one professional whose work definitely encouraged us Christans to at least trust God and our Bibles again, was Dr. Nicolosi. I read his book “Healing Homosexuality”, (8 case studies I think, 7 worked out, 1 did not, he was honest on all of them). Along with meeting actual ex-gays and a couple pastors or counselors in this area, NIcolosi’s book helped me to understand that this “Ex-Gay” thing is real. God is able.

  • Simple question for you, Ben.

    Have you ever read Dr. Nicolosi’s book, “Healing Homosexuality”?

  • Even the hardcore proponents admit they can’t change sexual orientation yet many still believe sexual orientation is a choice despite this admission and the consensus of medical professionals.

  • No one identifies with their SSA. Both terms are myths that christianists of a certain sort tell themselves to dehumanize us, To otherize us, and to justify their ill treatment of gay people.

    Nicolosi didn’t do any research. He made up sh*t, selling a phony cure for a phony disease.

    No one is claiming that gay people must embrace their SSA. But we are saying there is no disease, the vicious crap nicolosi was selling cures nothing, that it was based upon lies and wishful thinking,

    As for people who report success? You know why they are not reported? because they barely exist outside of their own imaginations. “I used to be gay. But now I’m straight” is simply Christospeak for “I’ve always been bisexual, but the gay part really bothered me.” Not Freud, not fraud, not Jesus, and the the crap nicolosi was selling has EVER, EVER changed anyone to a heterosexual.

  • As I said above, maybe he can talk to a therapist who can counsel him into being no longer dead.

  • “Dr. Nicolosi. I read his book “Healing Homosexuality”, (8 case studies I
    think, 7 worked out, 1 did not, he was honest on all of them)”

    According to himself and not any kind of outside case study analysis and peer review by experts in the field to assure proper methodology was employed.

  • “If you’re not familiar with “ex-gay therapy,” it is a therapeutic approach built on the assumption that sexual orientation can be changed.” It can be. Christ said that He would forgive and cleanse us of our sin.

    “Among patients, it has been shown to create heightened levels of anxiety, distress, depression, and suicidal tendencies. ” Homosexuals are known to have higher mental health issues.

    “Even most conservative Christians have now abandoned their support for “reparative therapy,” Can you cite a source for that?

    “Christians believe that upon death, we end up in an eternal place surrounded by our faithful ancestors and immersed in God’s presence. Christians refer to this place as heaven. I imagine that when Nicolosi died Wednesday (March 8) and entered eternity, he was shocked to find LGBT people there too” Christians believe that none other Christians will be in Heaven. Homosexuals are not Christians – they are still in active rebellion against Christ. Christ taught that people practicing immorality will not go to Heaven, unless they repent of their sin, then, they would be Christians and not homosexuals.
    A poor, cheap article.

  • Have you ever read the quran? It’s the word of god. You should read it and understand it. It will change your life, and get you out of your Christian delusion that you are in possession of any sort of truth.

  • “The real problem with Nicolosi’s “therapy” is not its ineffectiveness, but its harmfulness. ”
    no, the real problem with Nicolosi’s therapy was that it was a lie, it was based on lies, it promulgated lies, it was used to harm people who were not interested in it, it made a lot of money for nicolosi, it had absolutely no basis in fact, and barely in faith.

  • A poor cheap criticism. Another attack on gay people pretending to be love, hiding behind religion, and exhibiting your usual passive aggressive despite.
    why does jesus need nicolosi to do what Jesus can do, but never seems to do?

  • 1 Corinthians 6: 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
    Christ said He would forgive and cleanse us of our sin.
    Ex-LGBT for Jesus Christ
    Restored Hope Network
    Homosexuals Anonymous.

  • But funny. He doesn’t seem to heal you about being a passive aggressive, sandimonious, really not very nice ray of sunshine.

    Something’s are simply beyond even Jesus, I guess.

  • You wrote: ” He didn’t perform electrocution or naked therapy and other things you’re lumping in with his therapeutic practice.” Satan wants people afraid of leaving bondage to sin and afraid of knowing they can be free.

  • So permit me to repeat my simple question: Have you read Dr. Nicolosi’s book “Healing Homosexuality”?

  • You have made it more than obvious throughout this, and other articles, your fear of Christ and what He can do Ben.

  • permit me to repeat mine. Have you read the quran? No more false word of god, but finally, the real deal.

  • You’re afraid of Christ, o sandimonious one. You are the one that is afraid that if you don’t do exactly what he says, you will burn in hell forever.
    I’m not burdened with that nonsense, that fear, or the supercilious sanctimony of the terminally religious,. I no more believe in Christ than either of us believe in Odin, Zeus, pookahs, or banshees.

  • I don’t live in a place or among people, even church people, who would take someone like Nicolosi seriously. But like people who deny climate change or “prove” that black people have lower IQ’s, I can feel the hair on my neck rise. They have caused so much harm. I don’t wish them dead but I won’t be sorry when their influence is barely remembered.

  • Well, actually yes. Various Koran passages, anyway. My main focus was:

    (1) Texts that prove that Allah is NOT the same as the God of the Bible, and

    (2) Texts that clearly oppose homosexual behavior (yes, they do exist in the Koran.)

    So, umm, do these passages count as an answer to your question?

  • So you have claimed, repeatedly, while endorsing the same harmful, discredited practices. At least Nicolosi can do more harm. But you? How many will you drive to self-harm or suicide? Shame on you.

  • Jonathan claims that “most conservative Christians have now abandoned their support for ‘reparative therapy,'” but the comments here seem to suggest that it actually remains quite popular.

    Could it be, Jonathan, that the harmful problems with Christianity are not caused by a handful of bad apples, but instead constitute evidence that the religion itself is a bad tree that can only bear bad fruit? Food for thought, Jonathan.

  • I wonder if this is how Sandi makes her living? Flogging the ex-gay con game. She’s such a relentless one-note trumpeter for it, I have to wonder if criticism alarms her because it affects her wallet.

  • Christ offers life Croquet – the homosexual agencies only offer death and perdition. Christ said that He will forgive and heal them of their sin.

  • Do you charge people money for promoting this harmful rot? I ask, because you’re so determined to insist that this so called “conversion therapy” works, despite all evidence to the contrary, and the condemnation of the practice and its practitioners by every reputable medical organization worldwide, that I can only imagine you, your family, or some organization you’re involved with has a financial stake in the scam. Can’t kill the old cash cow eh, Sandi?

  • Christ said that He would forgive and heal us of our sin. If He chooses to use these agencies, more power to Him.

  • No honest, straightforward answer, huh? One more time, do you, a family member, or an organization you’re involved in, take people’s money for so-called “conversion therapy”? It’s a simple yes or no, Sandi. No need to be coy.

  • No need to answer silly questions either. Christ said that He would forgive and heal us of our sin. That should be sufficient for you.

  • Or perhaps that they world is so interested in keeping these precious people in bondage to sin as they have become quite a marketing ploy?

  • It’s not sufficient for me. Since you refuse to answer a simple “yes or no” question honestly, I think it’s quite safe to assume that you obviously have a financial stake in pushing this discredited garbage. You prey on vulnerable people for money. Disgraceful, shameful, and utterly disgusting.

  • Wonder what this guys thinks about the lies that the lbgt crowd promotes and the harm that comes from it. Just look at the CDC stats on the horrible consequences of homosexual sex is. Its awful.

  • Check it out Ben, Sandi refuses to answer if she takes money for promoting this harmful tripe. Rather telling.

  • The bottom line is any “treatment” that can promise “cure” using human means alone will be false in the eyes God. God never promise to solve all our problems on earth.

  • Christ indeed offers life. To straight people, and to gay people. I’m one of the latter. And a follower of Christ. A gay follower of Christ.

  • No. I support gay marriage, because a faithful, loving, healthy, constructive relationship is always to be encouraged whether it occurs between a man and a woman, a man and a man, or a woman and a woman. I can see no valid reason to deny committed love.

  • I’m gay. And I’m a Christian. You’re entitled to your opinion of course, as to whether I am a Christian or not. But such opinions go nowhere, because Christ Himself commanded his followers to take the plank out of their own eye before regarding the speck in someone else’s eye. So if you are a Christ follower, why are pronouncing judgement against others, when your focus should be on your own falling short?

  • ” I also now know lots of same-sex couples who are grateful for their relationships of mutual support and love. Perhaps that is the elephant in the room: the reality that gay people can love too. Imagine. ”

    Well said.

  • ” Homosexuals are not Christians… ”

    That kind of comment encourages the need to better understand what Christians are and what they’re not. LGBT folks are not excluded here. It’ll always be helpful to take a refreshing re-look at scripture and you should eventually see this. Many of my paraphrases encourage this.

  • ” …the lies that the lbgt crowd promotes… ”

    I’m not aware of any ‘lies’ that LGBT folk are promoting. They are promoting the following —

    1. An LGBT person is TRUSTWORTHY. He tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is a part of his code of conduct. People can always depend on him.

    2. An LGBT person is LOYAL. He is true to his family, friends, leaders, school, nation, and world community.

    3. An LGBT person is HELPFUL. He is concerned about other people. He willingly volunteers to help others without expecting payment or reward.

    4. An LGBT person is FRIENDLY. He is a friend to all. He is a brother to others. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs that are different from his own.

    5. An LGBT person is COURTEOUS. He is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows that good manners make it easier for people to get along together.

    6. An LGBT person is KIND. He understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not harm or kill anything without reason.

    7. An LGBT person is OBEDIENT. He follows the rules of his family, school, and group. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them.

    8. An LGBT person is CHEERFUL. He looks for the bright side of life. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy.

    9. An LGBT person is THRIFTY. He works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for the future. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property.

    10. An LGBT person is BRAVE. He can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at him or threaten him.

    11. An LGBT person is CLEAN. He keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean.

    12. An LGBT person is REVERENT. He is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

  • ” …God is not a man, that he should lie… ”

    Agree, but at the same time we should strive to distinguish the difference between important and meaningful narratives and hype. Hype is not a bad thing but it’s not very realistic either. Hype is kind of warm and fuzzy and hopeful, but it can’t always be relied upon.
    For example —
    …the Lord…who heals all your diseases………….Psalm 103: 3
    That’s hype. Realistically speaking, he does not heal ‘all’ of our diseases.

  • A not particularly well thought out piece. While the therapies described have been pretty well debunked as argued by the author, there is another biblical perspective that Mr. Merritt misses entirely. As a consequence of the Fall, which I have no idea whether not Mr. Merritt affirms, all human beings have crosses to bear…how they bear them is significant. Many gay Christians who plainly have not been delivered from their same sex attraction nevertheless agree that an active homosexual life is inconsistent with the teachings of the New Testament. Therefore they painfully struggle and persevere to live lives as directed by the clear tenets of the faith they subscribe to. To argue that active homosexuals who claim same sex relations are consistent with what the New Testament calls them to is to do them a grave disservice. This is not unique to the issue of homosexuality; any clearly defined, actively pursued lifestyle practice that violates the counsel of scripture will not ensure one’s entrance to heaven, but rather make it less likely. At the same time, I believe that God can deliver individuals from same sex attraction, but that would not be His normative response because we grow and learn from trial and tribulation. Delivered, healed, or not our obligation is to walk in His precepts.

  • Healing from sin does not always translate into healing from tribulation. I’ve no doubt homosexuals can be delivered and healed from the desire or willingness to sin, but I think complete deliverance from same sex attraction is actually rare, even for devout and biblically minded gay Christians. I’m not saying God can’t, or won’t heal inclinations, but that is not His normative approach. Bearing crosses is a calling for all Christians, even when that cross is intensely personal. Faithfulness and obedience to New Testament teaching is paramount, however painful the temptations God chooses not to deliver us from. But faithful perseverance is how we grow and mature spiritually As always, God’s Blessings.

  • You do not know Sandi at all. There is nothing so sordid as the idea of gain behind anything she says. What utter nonsense.

  • Actively gay? And if so, how do you square that with the clear admonitions in the NewTestament against it.

  • I tend to agree with you on many things, but I have become convinced that God does not deliver us, generally speaking, gay or otherwise, from the trials and temptations of life. It is through perseverance and faithfulness that we are spiritually healed if not physically delivered from the limitations and temptations of life that came to us through the Fall. I have known gay Christians who have genuinely prayed and pleaded with God to deliver them from their same sex attraction. I do not declare that He can’t do it, I’m saying that is not His normative approach. It is through trial and tribulation that we grow and mature spiritually: for gay Christians who seek to walk in obedience with God’s Word, that may be their particular cross to bear.

  • Which clear admonitions? Shall we start with Gen 19, the story of Lot and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? Compare Gen 19:1-9 with Judges 19:18-25 and tell me what you observe. My answer (maybe you disagree?): They are the same story,. There are 12 details in common between both stories, presented in the same order. Clearly these two stories were from the an earlier oral tradition. But here’s the point, they are embedded in two different histories. The first history tells of God rescuing Lot, a descendant of Abraham from the destruction of the Sodom. The second story tells of the war against the tribe of Benjamin.

    Which version actually happened? We cannot know if either of them happened. They cannot be read as history. Instead the story of Sodom and Gomorrah is properly understood not as a condemnation of same sex relationships, but as a condemnation of pride and arrogance, of greed and self-centeredness. Ezekiel 16:49-50 sums it up:

    ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things [Heb: toe’vah] before me.
    –Ezek 16:49-50

    There’s a lot more to say, but not enough space. But if you would like to continue, I’m willing.

  • “God does not deliver us, generally speaking, gay or otherwise, from the trials and temptations of life”

    Possible reasons

    1 – God does not exist
    2 – God does exist but he doesn’t care
    3 – God does exist, he does care but he can’t do anything about it
    4 – God does exist, he does care, he can do something about it – he just has a different idea from you as to what constitutes trials and temptations
    5 – God does exist, he does care, he can do something about it, he has the same ideas as you as to what constitutes trials and temptations but his priorities are very, very different to yours.
    6 – God does exist, he does care, he can do something about it, he has the same ideas as you as to what constitutes trials and temptations, his priorities are the same as yours – he just enjoys watching people get their knickers in a twist.
    7 – God does exist, he does care, he can do something about it, he has the same ideas as you as to what constitutes trials and temptations, his priorities are the same as yours, he doesn’t enjoy watching people get their knickers in a twist – he likes sending those he loves to hell.
    8 – God is perfect, I/we/you aren’t, don’t ask questions to which you wouldn’t understand the answer.
    9 – It’s all, my/your/Eve/everyone/anyone’s fault but definitely, obviously, cross-my-heart-and-hope-to die never-in-a-month-of-Sundays God’s – even though he invented the whole caboodle, knew it was going to turn out horribly wrong and still went ahead with it.

    Pick whichever – it doesn’t matter because, believe me, he’s the most wonderful-est, magic-est, not-failure-est God in the whole, massive, entire, greatest-ever-universe-there-ever-was – so there!

  • Glad they are nice people. That doesn’t change the fact how deadly homosexual sex is. Consider this from the CDC:
    “Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men (MSM) of all races and ethnicities remain the population most profoundly affected by HIV.
    In 2010, the estimated number of new HIV infections among MSM was 29,800, a significant 12% increase from the 26,700 new infections among MSM in 20082.
    Although MSM represent about 4% of the male population in the United States4, in 2010, MSM accounted for 78% of new HIV infections among males and 63% of all new infections2. MSM accounted for 54% of all people living with HIV infection in 2011, the most recent year these data are available1.
    In 2010, white MSM continued to account for the largest number of new HIV infections (11,200), by transmission category, followed closely by black MSM (10,600)2.
    The estimated number of new HIV infections was greatest among MSM in the youngest age group. In 2010, the greatest number of new HIV infections (4,800) among MSM occurred in young black/African American MSM aged 13–24. Young black MSM accounted for 45% of new HIV infections among black MSM and 55% of new HIV infections among young MSM overall2.
    Since the epidemic began, an estimated 306,885 MSM with an AIDS diagnosis have died, including an estimated 5,302 in 20113.”

  • Do YOU know if Sandi profits off of discredited “conversion therapy”? She refuses to answer the question. ABC 20/20 just ran an investigative journalism piece last night. There are hundreds of expensive “boot camps” for teens where they are beaten and abused. I strongly suspect she is involved in this profitable racket.

  • And, as always, you are happy to pervert science in favor of your perverisons of faith and love..
    Men who have sex with men is not the same thing as gay men.

  • No. I’m just repeating what Christ taught. Homosexuals will not go to Heaven. Homosexuality is a sin, and one needs to repent of their sin to become Christian.
    If you have become a Christian, why do you hold onto your sin so tightly that you identify yourself as such, when you have been freed from that filth? You hurt the Lord who cleansed you and yourself.

    1 John 2: 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,”

    1 John 1:6 – If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.

    1 John 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

  • 1 John 2: 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,”

    1 John 1:6 – If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.

    1 John 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

  • God said that He would forgive and cleanse us of our sin. How do you know these means were not ordained by God?

  • lol Croquet, this world has lied to homosexuals for so long – actually murdering them. I’m just here to tell them they have a chance – an out for the sin and they don’t have to remain in the filth of that sin. Christ made promises and He promised He would forgive and heal us of our sin – something the world does not want homosexuals to know – lest they be freed and on a journey to Heaven.

  • As always, your comments appreciated. Personally I expect, (on the basis of Scripture), to be challenged by “trials and temptations”, all my life.
    But I look to, and I often offer, 1 Cor 10:13 and 1 John 1:9. People, strugglers, questioners, anybody — are desperate to hear God Himself say life-changing things like,

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+10%3A13&version=NIV
    https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=faithful+and+just+to+forgive&version=NKJV&resultspp=25

    But it’s hard for people to believe these promises because their personal experiences feel like “Sure I prayed, but it didn’t work.” “The SSA is still bothering me.” “I talk to God but God don’t talk to me.” This is why some people define their identity as “Gay Christians” even though it’s biblically clear that “Gay” is NOT what Christ wants at all. Christ wants all of us clean, delivered, healed, free, (and for the Corinthians, He seemed to want it pretty quickly — 1 Cor.6:9-11).

    I’m not doing pat answers, I know things get complicated, (healing is often a process), and “perseverence and faithfulness”, I agree with. But God offers cleansing, power, grace, healing and deliverance every day, biblically, even though we walk out a long “P and F” process. So I try to offer, **Don’t Give Up** on what the Impossible God can do, no matter where one is at today. No telling what blessing He may bring. We all have our “crosses”, but that don’t mean being defined or defeated by a sin or temptation.

  • Yes, I saw that particular ABC show you’re referring to. Now THAT’s the kind of mess that (as per a recent thread about “apologizing”), makes me want to apologize to you as a Christian. I’m sorry, and I’m glad those people got exposed.

    But, umm, even in the secular world, you ARE expected to provide evidence for the serious accusation you’ve written against Sandi.

    Otherwise, according to the Mass Media Law class I took several years ago, Croquet Player has officially committed LIBEL.

    Now you don’t want that on your comment-section resume, do you?

  • Merritt cites a source by gay psychologist Dr. Doug Haldeman, denying that sexual orientation can change. But Haldeman has said the opposite! A story in the gay news magazine, The Advocate, finds him admitting that there are “gay” people who can have changes in their “sexual orientation”. He admits:

    “But there are some small groups of people, particularly women, FOR WHOM SEXUAL ORIENTATION MAY ACTUALLY CHANGE OVER TIME.”

    “These women are not necessarily bisexuals either, Haldeman emphasizes: ‘When they are in opposite-sex relationships, these women are heterosexuals. When they are in same-sex relationships, they are lesbians. WE’RE TALKING ABOUT REAL FLUIDITY HERE.’” (The Advocate, October 24,
    2000, pg. 74)

    https://books.google.com/books?id=wGMEAAAAMBAJ&q=Haldeman#v=snippet&q=Haldeman&f=false

    But do only women demonstrate fluidity? Dr. Lisa Diamond, a lesbian psychologist, has received awards from the American Psychological Association for her work on “sexual orientation”. Even the gay “Division 44″ of the APA honors and lauds Dr. Diamond:

    “… her exceptional research has challenged prevailing notions of sexual orientation.”

    http://www.apadivisions.org/division-44/membership/fellows/honored-fellows.aspx

    Diamond’s research has shown that “sexual fluidity” exists: “’It’s possible…for someone who is homosexual to fall in love with someone of a different gender…It appears to be something EVERYBODY is capable of…’”

    http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb07/lovesnot.aspx

    Dr. Diamond’s original research involved 90+ women who showed “fluidity” by becoming attracted to both men and women, even when they thought they were exclusively “lesbian”. But she wondered whether men might be “fluid” too, as she relates in her new video.

    (6:24) “…over the years I’ve come to sort of think about this more deeply…and…we simply haven’t had the kinds of samples and the kinds of studies that would actually allow us to rigorously answer the question of whether women and men are equally fluid.”

    Now, many studies with huge samples, numbering in the thousands, are available to study both male and female fluidity. Dr. Diamond adds her own new study with a substantial sample of “159 women and 179 men”. All these studies show that men have “fluidity,” too.

    (37:27)” So what are the implications of all this? I’ve started to now come to see fluidity NOT as something that’s just specific to women, but as a GENERAL FEATURE OF HUMAN SEXUALITY.”
    She adds:

    “We have advocated for the civil rights of LGBT people on the basis of them being LGBT, right…And that really, really tricky now that we know that it’s not true.”

    http://www.cornell.edu/video/lisa-diamond-on-sexual-fluidity-of-men-and-women

  • Okay then. Reading Koran texts don’t count.

    But meanwhile, it’s clear that you haven’t read Dr. Nicolosi’s book. Me, I have.

  • I’ve had my encounters with nicolosi, in which he was angry and defensive that anyone could possibly call him out on his motives and his methods, I have read a good deal of what he has to say, and it was all garbage.

    I’ve met a few of the people he has harmed. I’m going to include him in that, simply because I had the distinct impression he was trying to cure himself, if you know what I mean.

    BTW! You know whT hey used to do back in the eighties when young gay men were dying of AIDS? they claimed it was “the flu”.

    You like nicolosi because he agrees with you,

  • Sandimonious only likes what Jesus says when he agrees with her. She is incapable of using any kind of mirror. But keep trying.

  • If you don’t mind, I’m going to steal this. Remember, as one of the two st, oscars said, imitation is the sincerest form of plagiarism.

  • Do you, a family member, or an organization you are involved with take money from people for “conversion therapy”?

  • You don’t need to apologize to me. I’m not gay, and none of my family members were forced into one of these horrifying camps. I do have a friend who, when she was a teen, her father freaked out that she was a lesbian and tried to pack her off to one. Fortunately her mother put her foot down and said “absolutely not”. We’ll never know what horrors she escaped. I think the people who have lost friends and family to suicide because of these places are owed something, as are the people who went and survived. I also think that better than an apology after the fact, is shutting down these places altogether so that no further abuses take place.

    Is Sandi taking money for this kind of medically discredited, so-called “therapy”? She’s such a tireless promoter of it, one has to wonder. It’s not “libel” to ask the question. A perfectly reasonable question, I might add, that she refuses to answer. Why? A simple “yes” or “no” would suffice. Is it that she doesn’t want to commit to writing that she profits off a harmful practice? Could be, I don’t know. But I know this, her continued evasions are extremely suspicious to me. And they should be suspicious to everyone who is concerned about the abuse of children with medically discredited practices.

  • They probably can change ones same sex attraction more surely than one can change their gender.

  • Oh, let’s be merciful to each other. I have no idea what anyone “is capable of” until they try. For myself, I’m trying *not* to take offense when people guess whether I am, or am not, this, or that, or the other, whatever this, that or the other may be. Generally conversations should be geared toward letting another person declare herself (or himself) while she (or he) allows me to declare myself.

  • Why do you promote a practice which has been discredited as both harmful and unethical by every major medical organization worldwide? And why do you refuse to answer the question if you take money for it? (“lol”? People die because of this practice. You think that’s funny? I sure don’t.)

  • You help people to die every time you endorse homosexuality Croquet. You are endorsing their death and perdion.
    Anything on this earth that will help them to get away from that sin and become followers of Christ is worth the risk.

  • And your medical evidence for this is where? It’s nowhere. This is harmful nonsense, originating in crackpot religious zealotry. However the practice you promote has been made illegal to inflict on minors in numerous states because of the proven harmful outcomes. Do you take money for it? Do you? If you’re so proud of the practice, why won’t you say whether or not you are paid for it? Do you live in a state where it has been made illegal? Are you breaking the law?

  • The blogs really have you confused, eh?
    First of all, no one went in and killed everyone in S&G. The Lord rained burning sulphur on S&G when they tried to rape the men when they refused their offer of sex.
    Gibeah, the tribes went back and killed all of the Benjaminites.
    Re: S&G, you may also be interested in:

    Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire

    2 Peter 2:6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

    Deuteronomy 29: 22 And the next generation, your children who rise up after you, and the foreigner who comes from a far land, will say, when they see the afflictions of that land and the sicknesses with which the Lord has made it sick— 23 the whole land burned out with brimstone and salt, nothing sown and nothing growing, where no plant can sprout, an overthrow like that of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the Lord overthrew in his anger and wrath— 24 all the nations will say, ‘Why has the Lord done thus to this land? What caused the heat of this great anger?’ 25 Then people will say, ‘It is because they abandoned the covenant of the Lord, the God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them out of the land of Egypt,:

    S&G was homosexuality. They refused the daughters of Lot and even being blinded, they tried to enter the house to have homosexual sex with the men (angels).
    blessings.

  • Actually Billy, what kind of love is it to send the person you have sex with to their death?

  • Also JP, they lie that the sin is immutable and innate .
    1 Corinthians 6:11 – And such were some of you.
    blessings.

  • I am not HIV positive and I have been actively Gay for now 30 years. I am monogamous now. But truth be told, the evidence indicates that it is Anal sex that transmits diseases easily. Vaginal sex does somewhat – less than anal but a lot more than oral sex. Since Lesbians do neither vaginal nor anal sex, they don’t have nearly the rates of venereal diseases that Heterosexual women have. Anyway, the point was not that sexual behavior cannot be changed, but rather sexual feelings or attractions from one gender or another cannot be changed. I have spoken to some Lesbians who indicate their feelings were not chosen. I experienced homosexual attractions from a very early age. No amount of effort or psychotherapy changed these attractions from male to female. And, NO, this does make it an addiction or an outward behavior that I had no control over.

  • The Greek word used there is Arsenokoitus. This word does not mean inward feelings or attractions that cannot be changed, but rather an outward behavior that can be changed. 1 Corinthians 6:9 does not speak of a change in sexual orientation.

  • You have no idea of what you are talking about Daniel. That was really an embarrassing attempt.

  • The word does not need to mean anything more than men who sleep with men.
    And, we’ve been through this before, “Sexual Orientation” is nothing more than a term used to “normalize” immorality.
    (edit)Englishman’s Concordance
    ἀρσενοκοίταις (arsenokoitais) — 1 Occurrence
    1 Timothy 1:10 N-DMP
    GRK: πόρνοις ἀρσενοκοίταις ἀνδραποδισταῖς ψεύσταις
    NAS: and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers
    KJV: For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers,
    INT: the sexually immoral homosexuals men-stealers liars

  • There are men who are attracted to other men who don’t have sex with other men. There are even men who aren’t attracted to other men who actually DO have sex with other men, such as in prisons. It is the attractions that make a person gay, not the sex act per se. Arsenokoitus does not mean men who are merely attracted to other men.

  • Heterosexual men do not sleep with other men. Why are you fighting about attraction tonight, Daniel?
    What you are tempted by is your fault, and responsibility also:

    James 1:13Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

  • A lot of heterosexual men DO have sex with other men in prisons. Arsenokoitus does NOT mean the temptation or even the desire to have gay sex. Even Paul expressed some lack of control over his own desire, when he stated in Romans 7:7-8 that the command not to covet unleashed many desires within him. The Greek word for Covet or epithymia is the very same word used for lust such as in the James text you quote. So Paul expressed some lack of control over his inward desires. Temptation is another word or peirasmos, which means experiment, attempt, trial or proving. God called Abraham to sacrifice his Son Isaac which was a kind of experiment or proving. Job was tempted in the book of Job to curse God. So it isn’t always the case throughout the Bible that God doesn’t test or tempt people. However, Jesus was tempted by Satan and not by God.

  • Nice distortion there, going from ‘a small group of women’ to concluding that homosexuals over all can change from gay to straight.

    You might want to look up a word: bisexuality.

  • ” there is another biblical perspective that Mr. Merritt misses entirely.”

    But not an accurate or rational one.

    ” As a consequence of the Fall,”

    As a consequence of the Fall, God cursed heterosexuals, it is the second curse in the Bible, in Genesis 3. Additionally, biology makes the case that sexual reproduction is a work-around for the challenges of disease, parasitism, and death – all of three of which, Christian theology tells us, are the result of the Fall. So a couple of humans sinned against God, forcing the creation of heterosexuality and sexual reproduction as a work-around for death, and then God cursed the intrinsic fruit of heterosexual sex – pregnancy and childbirth.

    “Many gay Christians who plainly have not been delivered from their same
    sex attraction nevertheless agree that an active homosexual life is
    inconsistent with the teachings of the New Testament”

    Many millions more have been taught, by the Holy Spirit, that their sexuality is not a sin, and it is not ‘inconsistent with the teachings of the New Testament’. At best, it is inconsistent with the sinful pride-based heresy of some heterosexuals desperate to prove that despite cursing their sexuality, God does love them more than other people.

    Of course, the opinion of anyone using a fraudulent phrase like ‘active homosexual life’ is suspect. After all, that concept includes homosexuals breathing, eating, drinking water – and the only way for a homosexual to not be living an ‘active homosexual life’ is to be dead.

    ” Therefore they painfully struggle and persevere to live lives as directed by the clear tenets of the faith they subscribe to.”
    Ah, but when it comes to condemning homosexual sex – no such tenets exist in the Bible. And those who promote such tenets, clearly, consciously and deliberate disobey the actual teachings of Jesus Christ.

    ” To argue that active homosexuals who claim same sex relations are
    consistent with what the New Testament calls them to is to do them a
    grave disservice.”

    Not at all. It is to recognize that you are not God, that you don’t understand the New Testament, that you reject Christ, and that because you show favoritism toward heterosexuals and against homosexuals, you are a lawbreaker.

    ” At the same time, I believe that God can deliver individuals from same sex attraction,”

    God can deliver you from the lifestyle and prejudice, if you let him. There is no need, however, for god to ‘deliver’ individuals from same-sex attraction, since it is neither sin, nor a burden. Anti-gay prejudice, however, is sin, and it is a burden for everyone involved. If you allowed God to work in your life, God could deliver you from your malice toward homosexuals.

  • “Wonder what this guys thinks about the lies that the lbgt crowd promotes and the harm that comes from it.”

    Your fantasies have no basis in reality.

    “Just look at the CDC stats on the horrible consequences of homosexual sex is. Its awful.”

    Nope. Nice fraud, by the way, since the CDC only covers people living in the U.S. Worldwide, 95% of all cases of HIV/AIDS are in heterosexuals. In fact, heterosexuals account for the proportionate majority of all STD’s.

    They also account for the disproportionate majority of crime. Disproportionately, more heterosexuals are murderers, thieves, rapists, drug dealers, addicts, frauds, etc. Disproportionately, heterosexuals are responsible for the majority of all wars, oppressive governments, genocides, and other crimes against God and humanity.

  • I have openly endorsed Dr. NIcolosi’s book ‘Healing ,Homosexuality” in this forum, and yet nobody asks me if I’m getting any profits by doing so.
    (And if asked, I’ll just go silent anyway. Why dignify such a queston with a response?)

  • “That doesn’t change the fact how deadly homosexual sex is:”

    It is not deadly. Any sex that spreads STD’s can be deadly, and on that regard, heterosexuality is far more deadly.

    But there are ways in which heterosexual sex is, in and of itself, without any other organism or influence, deadly.

    You see, for most of recorded human history, the leading cause of death for women has been pregnancy, delivery, and complications arising from either. In short, when ever a woman dies in childbirth – as still happens to this day – it is a consequence of heterosexual sex. Yeah, there are some pregnancies that are the result of artifical insemination, or in vitro fertilization, but they are statistically irrelevant.

    Further, since life is a terminal condition, all humans die, heterosexual sex is always inevitable fatal for the children it produces.

  • ” But truth be told, the evidence indicates that it is Anal sex that
    transmits diseases easily. Vaginal sex does somewhat – less than anal
    but a lot more than oral sex.”

    Well – that’s not particularly accurate. However, with HIV, the virus itself exploits proteins in semen, that are not found in vaginal fluid, to increases its ability to infect new cells. Which is why het men more frequently pass HIV to women, than women pass it to men. And why, of course, transmission is easier between two men, and more difficult between two women.

  • No, Sandi, we don’t lie. But you and your peers do.

    Now, sandi, anti-gay theology is based on literalism, and the Bible literally forbids women like you to teach or instruct men. You sinned by posting. Please repent and refrain from further repentance.

    Neither of the words in the I Cor passage you are citing, actually were used in Paul’s day to refer to people who had sex with someone of their own gender. Though there exists 17 greek and latin words Paul could have used, that did express that concept, Paul did not use any of them.

    Now, by claiming that he was talking about homosexuals, you are equating homosexuality with murder and stealing and addiction – and that is slander. It shows that you have no real moral foundation – for you cannot tell the difference between things that are harmful – like murder, and things that are not, like gay sex.

    As a slanderer, sandi, you are barred, under that very passage, from the Kingdom of Heaven, unless you repent.

    Odds are, though, that you will not.

  • Your false accusations arise out of the pride, the root of all sin.

    http://www.gaychristian101.com/what-words-could-paul-have-used-if-he-intended-to-condemn-homosexuality.html

    “If Paul intended to condemn homosexuality, he could have used a word
    from the following list to make his point. Yet instead of using these
    words, Paul coined a new Greek word, arsenokoitai or arsenokoites, from the arsenokoit stem. Thanks for taking time to educate yourself by exploring the textual links.

    Some people believe that Paul coined the Greek word arsenokoitai, from the words arsenos koiten, found in Lev 20:13 in the Septuagint,
    a Greek translation of the Old Testament, where the biblical, cultural,
    historical and religious context is temple prostitution.

    There is not a shred of objective historical evidence to support the belief that anyone in the first century AD understood arsenokoitai to refer to male and female homosexuality in general or used arsenokoitai with that meaning.”

    Bear in mind, sandi, that the depraved theology you are spewing produces evil fruit, people are murdered, raped, tortured to enforce the sick belief ‘homosexuality is sin’, and that evil fruit proves, to those who actually follow Jesus Christ, that the belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ is evil, and those who teach it are false teachers, to whom Christ will say “I know you not”.

    Please repent.

  • “The word does not need to mean anything more than men who sleep with men.”

    But it doesn’t mean that at all, for one thing. But notice how your argument is based on need, rather than fact.

    Again, you are sinning just by posting, sandi. Shame on you.

    ” “Sexual Orientation” is nothing more than a term used to “normalize” immorality.”

    So, since heterosexuality is a sexual orientation, by your reasoning, heterosexuality is immoral.

  • “Heterosexual men do not sleep with other men.”

    Actually, many do. Your lies condemn you, sandi.

  • No. Your claim rejects reality. How ironic, the same fraud could be perpetrated on any religion you practice.

  • “Me, I have.”

    Prove it. You already demonstrated that you didn’t read the Qur’an with an honest mind. Heck, you cannot prove that you read it, especially, that you read in in the original language.

    Your word is worthless, floydlee – I’ve witnessed you lying many times.

  • “It can be.”

    No.

    ” Christ said that He would forgive and cleanse us of our sin.”

    Homosexuality is not sin, and your argument is a circular nonsense based on a false premise.

    ” Homosexuals are known to have higher mental health issues.”

    As the direct result of homophobia perpetuated by evil people.

    ” Homosexuals are not Christians – they are still in active rebellion against Christ.”

    Actually, millions of us are, and your slander of us is active rebellion against Christ on your part.

  • “No. I’m just repeating what Christ taught.”

    No sandi, you are not. You are spewing your heretical and destructive interpretation, even though the Bible literally forbids you to teach or instruct men.
    “Homosexuals will not go to Heaven.”

    Wrong again.

    “Homosexuality is a sin,”

    No, it is not. It cannot be. The Bible tells us that God does not show favoritism, to allow heterosexuals to have sex that is natural to them, and forbid it to homosexuals, would be evil favoritism. It means that your god is not the One True God of the Bible.

    “If you have become a Christian, why do you hold onto your sin so tightly
    that you identify yourself as such, when you have been freed from that
    filth? You hurt the Lord who cleansed you and yourself.”

    You desperately need to ask yourself those questions, for you are deeply sinning here. The passages you cited, as you use them, condemn you. Please repent.

  • Your false accusations reveal your motive. You actively want to make people afraid of Christ.

  • Homosexuality is not a sin, so your entire line of reasoning is predicated on your malice and prejudice, and as such, your line of reasoning is itself sin.

  • The division is created by people like you.

    “We’ve given up on Your huge Bible promises like 1 Cor 6:9-11 and 1 Cor 10:13.””

    Neither have anything to do with homosexuality, as you’ve told many times in the past. I do recognize your id.

    But you and your peers, you abandon Christ altogether.

  • Homosexuality, however, is not a sin. Your prejudice against and hatred for them, is sin.

    James 2:9

    But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers.

    Because your depraved belief favors heterosexuals over homosexuals, you are a lawbreaker. Since you argument that unrepentant sinners cannot be Christians (though the Bible does not support that heresy either) by your standard of judgement, per Matthew 7: 1,2 – you cannot be a Christian.

  • Homosexuality is neither sin, nor tribulation.

    Living with homophobes who murder, rape, torture, slander, lie about, vilify and demonize, persecute and abuse us – is a tribulation.

  • ” the homosexual agencies only offer death and perdition.”

    Your slander condemns you. Because of sick beliefs like the one you just posted, real people are murdered and raped.

  • “Defending it line by line, no matter how long it takes?”

    Oh, boy. You say you’ve read Nicolosi’s book, so sincere kudos to you on that part.

    But no, I don’t see the point of trying to defend the book line by line as long as it takes. The proof is in the results, and results are found in the actual outcomes of the counselees in the book, which worked out except for one person.

    But one book in which I’m okay with hours-&-hours line-by-line debating, is the Bible.

    For example, you said a pro-gay **falsehood** to Sandi about 1 Cor 6:9-11. I shall have to mop up that falsehood later tonight. Please avoid spilling any further falsehoods on the floor.

  • I never said anything about reading the Koran in any language but English.

    However, it’s easy to cut and paste the relevant Koran texts in this forum, if you want the rest of the posters to see them.

  • “The blogs really have you confused, eh?”
    Nice sin.

    “The Lord rained burning sulphur on S&G when they tried to rape the men when they refused their offer of sex.”

    That is not accurate, not by a long shot. Never mind that you are trying to prove that what God said in Ezekiel 16 is wrong. Your claim is not accurate.

    It is interesting that you don’t actually quote the Genesis texts.

    Let’s start at the beginning of the story. Genesis 14: 8
    “8 Then the king of Sodom, the king of Gomorrah, the king of Admah, the king of Zeboyim and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar) marched out and drew up their battle lines in the Valley of Siddim 9 against Kedorlaomer king of Elam, Tidal king of Goyim, Amraphel king of Shinar and Arioch king of Ellasar—four kings against five. 10 Now the Valley of Siddim was full of tar pits, and when the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, some of the men fell into them and the rest fled to the hills. 11 The four kings seized all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah and all their food; then they went away. 12 They also carried off Abram’s nephew Lot and his possessions, since he was living in Sodom.”

    So you are already wrong. Abram, hearing of this warfare, rescues the people of Sodom and his nephew Lot.

    We move ahead past Abram’s conversations with God and renaming as Abraham, to Genesis 18

    “When the men got up to leave, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. 17 Then the Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.[c] 19 For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.”

    20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

    So, Sodom is already condemned, before the messengers ever get their. In Jewish tradition, that ‘outcry’ is from the execution of a woman who fed a poor beggar:
    http://www.iwgonline.org/docs/sodom.html
    “A certain maiden gave some bread to a poor man, hiding it in a pitcher.
    On the matter becoming known, they daubed her with honey and placed her
    on the parapet of the wall, and the bees came and consumed her. Thus it
    is written, And the Lord said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah, because it
    is great (rabbah): whereupon Rab Judah commented in Rab’s name: on
    account of the maiden (ribah).

    Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 109a

    But since you think you know better than God, you may think you know better than the Jews as well.

    Going on, Genesis 19
    ” 4 But
    before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young
    and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house; 5 and they called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, so that we may know them.””

    All the people, of all ages. It really is bizarre, frankly, that you and your peers think that any man could have consensual sex (or rape for that matter) in front of everyone he knows and lives with. You need to find a better class of men to know.

    The word rendered ‘know’ is yada. Of the more than 900 times it appears in the OT, only a handful of them are cases of being used as a euphemism for sex, and all of those are heterosexual sexual scenarios, most confirmed by whether or not a child was produced. The overwhelming majority of the time, yada refers to some form of learning about someone. We’re told that God yada’s Moses, the people of Israel, the Egyptians. It is not sane to interpret yada in this situation as ‘have sex with’.

    But if we look at the whole story, and human history in general, a rational conclusion does arise: the people of Sodom wanted to interrogate, possibly torture, the messengers. Both interrogation and torture have long been communal acts, rape or consensual sex – no where near. We have a city full of rich people whose city was sacked after a war, the king responsible, and his army, still a threat. They interpret the presence of strangers in the most rational way – they saw the messengers as potential or probably spies. They sought to do what the Bush adminstration did after 9/11, what countries have done during wars for all of human history: interrogate strangers perceived to be a threat.

    Not have sex with them, interrogate them. And that explains why Lot might offer his daughters in place, it would be irrational to offer sex with women to gay men after all – but sex with his daughters as a substitute for torture and interrogation – that has historical examples.

  • Yes, their immorality was condemned before the angels arrived.
    Let’s stick with scripture now…The men came to the house for an orgy – one of the immoralities of S&G. They wanted “yada” to have intimate sex with the men, the same term used between Adam and Eve. Lot told them this was evil and offered his daughters – who they rejected because they wanted to sleep with men.

  • not in the least…..they do condemn people thinking they are saved when they continue to unrepentantly sin against Christ though

  • Homosexuality is a sin.
    It was one of the sins that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of.

  • From your lack of knowledge that you have displayed, you have not shown me that you are capable of judging that.

  • Homosexuality is a sin. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because that was one of their sin.

  • And your comments still display no knowledge of what you try to discuss. If you need to insult, you don’t have much of a case.

  • Homosexuality is a sin for which Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, Mark. Christ does not condone homosexuality.

  • Homosexuality is a sin. Christ said they would not see the Kingdom of Heaven. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

  • “Jude 1:7 – In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding
    towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion.”

    So here’s the interesting thing, nothing here indicates anything about homosexuality, but the actual greek that your translation renders as ‘sexual immorality and perversion’ – is heteros sarx.

    Heteros. You might recognize that term, sandi. You might have seen it in words like heterosexuality and heterosexual. It means different, strange, other. Sarx means flesh. Literally – strange flesh. Heterosexuals go after strange or different flesh, someone of the other gender. Homosexuals go after someone of their own gender, with the same genitals, the same flesh.

    Further, this passage is actually tying back to Genesis 6:
    “When people began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that they were fair; and they took wives for themselves of all that they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My spirit shall not abide[a] in mortals forever, for they are flesh; their days shall be one hundred twenty years.” 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the
    sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to
    them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown.

    5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of humankind was great in the earth, and that
    every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil
    continually.”

    Again, ‘sons of God’ with human daughters (the strange flesh) is a heterosexual dynamic, not a homosexual one. So Jude 1:7, if it condemns any sexual orientation, condemns heterosexuality, not homosexuality.

    Since neither of your other two citations even indicate what the sin of Sodom was, they do you no good at all, and simply constitute an attempt to pad your fraud to make it look good.

    Now, you avoided Ezekiel 16, where God explicitly tells us what the sin of Sodom was. Clearly, you don’t believe God very much.

    Ezekiel 16 is sometimes titled “the faithless bride”. In it, God speaks, using sexual relationship as a metaphor for idolatry. God accuses Jerusalem of many terrible things, all of which are symptoms of the people’s idolatry. Twice, God accuses them of human sacrifice:

    ” 21 You slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering to them. 22 And
    in all your abominations and your whorings you did not remember the
    days of your youth, when you were naked and bare, flailing about in your
    blood.”

    “Because your lust was
    poured out and your nakedness uncovered in your whoring with your
    lovers, and because of all your abominable idols, and because of the
    blood of your children that you gave to them, ”

    In both cases, the word used, that is rendered abominations in the translation above – is to’ebah. It is rendered detestable practices in other translations, and it appears as well in Proverbs 6.

    Just to really rub salt in their wound, God then compares the people of Jerusalem, unfavorably, with the people of Sodom, and says:
    “49 This
    was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride,
    excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.
    50 They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it.”

    And abominable things – God has established already that in this passage, God is talking about human sacrifice.

    So, no, “S&G was homosexuality.” is not only patently false, it is a direct rejection of God’s own testimony.

    A diversion for a moment, to Proverbs 6:

    “12 A scoundrel and a villain
    goes around with crooked speech,
    13 winking the eyes, shuffling the feet,
    pointing the fingers,
    14 with perverted mind devising evil,
    continually sowing discord;
    15 on such a one calamity will descend suddenly;
    in a moment, damage beyond repair.

    16 There are six things that the Lord hates,
    seven that are an abomination to him:
    17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
    and hands that shed innocent blood,
    18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
    feet that hurry to run to evil,
    19 a lying witness who testifies falsely,
    and one who sows discord in a family.”

    Now, first off, the word rendered here as abomination is again, to’ebah. Notice as well that in this list of the things God hates – homosexuality is not mentioned, not even inferred. But you and your peers commit all seven of these to’ebah, detestable things, abominations, just by denigrating and judging and slandering GLBTQ people with your ‘homosexuality is sin’ heresy.

    So here is the final point. You and your peers here are the real heirs of Sodom, and you are the ones actually practicing sodomy, the sin of Sodom. You sacrifice GLBTQ people, in thought and word when it not in deed, to your false god of pride.

    These passages that you and your peers try to beat GLBTQ people up with, and use to incite physical violence against us – actually convict and condemn you.

  • Christ condemned homosexuality all over the Bible, Mark. Show me where He approved of sex between two same sexed people.

  • “This piece is ridiculously unobjective.”
    Nice warning about your post.

    ” But now people who don’t identify with their SSA are the ones marginalized, by pieces like these.”

    Not at all, but thanks for showing how biased you are.

  • If you understood the Bible, you would understand that is meant in a church-type setting. Show us where Christ endorses or agrees with homosexuality.

  • Same-sex attraction **definitely** doesn’t make a person gay. Christians must let SSA “questioners” or strugglers know that their temptations and sins DO NOT define their self identity, especially if they have accepted Christ as Lord and Savior.

    We have to let people know what 1 Cor 10:13 and 1 John 1:9 promises. Same-sex attraction is not a gift to be embraced. It’a temptation to sin and slavery, but which can be overcome and escaped by God’s power.

    Gay-self-identity is a choice, a very bad spiritual choice. Choose a self-identity in Christ instead, choose His healing & deliverance.

  • Daniel, show us where Christ endorses or approves of homosexuality. Case closed. He did teach that a man and a woman should marry to not become involved in immorality – adultery, homosexuality, etc.

  • homosexuality is a sin, and it is immoral MarkLeviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
    Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

  • “But no, I don’t see the point of trying to defend the book line by line as long as it takes.”

    So, your entire line of argument was pointless and dishonest grandstanding. You cannot even prove you read the book. You were just making noise to bluster your way out of evil.

    “The proof is in the results”

    The results are found in the testimony of the millions of GLBTQ people who have tried such therapies, including directly from Nicolosi, without any success at all.

    The proof is found in the many studies that have found that repartive therapy is a destructive fraud.

    “But one book in which I’m okay with hours-&-hours line-by-line debating, is the Bible.”

    I doubt you’ve read it either.

    “For example, you said a pro-gay **falsehood** to Sandi about 1 Cor 6:9-11. I”

    No, I did not. But you are free to actually address what I wrote, and provide evidence to refute it. Now, floyd, you had the burden of substantiating that accusation with evidence the moment you made it, and you did not. Heck, you were not even honest enough to quote whatever it is you think was a falsehood. You’ve already ducked out on analyzing the very book you claim is proof of the effectiveness of reparative therapy, and now you cannot even make a precise enough claim about my posts to allow analysis.

    You have nothing, and frankly, you never did in all the times I’ve encountered you.

    “I shall have to mop up that falsehood later tonight. Please avoid spilling any further falsehoods on the floor.”

    So you are a conceited fraud with nothing of substance to contribute, trolling to feed your ego. As always.

  • “Various Koran passages, anyway.”

    So, no, you did not read the Qu’ran, you read cherry-picked parts of it, and then lied about it.

  • “I never said anything about reading the Koran in any language but English.”

    Ah, but real scholars study the Qur’an in the Arabic. If you read “Various Koran passages” in an English translation, you cannot be sure, or convince others, that you understood it correctly.

    Once again, you arguments are fraudulent.

    “However, it’s easy to cut and paste the relevant Koran texts in this forum, if you want the rest of the posters to see them”

    Which is why your claims have no weight. You can cheat.

  • It is neither, sandi.

    Now, look at what you did. I presented a detailed rebuttal of your claim, and your responded with the same tired false claims you’ve used before.

    Not only is that rude, not only does it prove that you are incapable of actually addressing the subject honestly or with good scholarship, it is actually black magic.

    You see, what you are doing is simply this: you are trying combine your will with words you think have meaning and power lke “homosexuality is a sin” to harm other people. That is really all you’ve been doing here. Black magic.

    In conservative Christianity, that is considered demonic, witchcraft, evil.

  • ” I am saved though;”

    No, by your own standard of judgement, you cannot be a Christian, you are not saved.

    You have sinned greatly here, you have to repent before you can be Christian, according to your own beliefs.

    Your presumption that I am not saved, is the sin of pride on your part. Please, repent.

  • Many have left the homosexual sin and are now calling themselves ex-homosexuals. It happens. They live normal, happy lives.

  • Nice dismissal. Your sins here are building up fast. Please repent.

    Remember, sandi, you are not allowed to even post in public, or teach or instruct men, according to the NT.

  • I’ve never seen any dishonesty in floydlee, but through you tonight, I have seen an enormous amount.

  • “If you understood the Bible, you would understand that is meant in a church-type setting.”

    That is your spin, on a different passage. Literally, though, ekklesia means any public gathering. So by that verse as well, you are sinning.

    That is why I mentioned your literalism.

    “Show us where Christ endorses or agrees with homosexuality.”
    Nice fraudulent standard.

    What you are using is ‘absence of affirmation = condemnation’. By that standard then, you are judged and condemned.

    Where does Christ endorse or affirm the name Sandi? Without a specific quote from Jesus, you are sinning by using that name.

    Where does Christ endorse of affirm computers, the internet, electronic devises of any kind, the English language, the name Luckins? No where, sandi.

    So by your standard of judgement, you are convicted. You are judged by the standard you judge GLBTQ people, and it convicted. You have made cars, planes, chocolate, cell phones, television, printing presses and any book printed on them – sin for you.

    You are trying to be clever, by scores of your peers have pulled this fraudulent argument before. It simply affirms that you have no accurate reason to condemn homosexuality, only hate and pride.

  • “Christ condemned homosexuality all over the Bible, Mark.”

    No, sandi. There is no text in the Bible where God or Jesus condemns homosexuality.

    Look again at your incompetent reply. I provide you with detailed material disproving your claim, your repeat the same old falsehood.

    You are practicing black magic, trying to change God into something evil through the combination of your will and words you think have meaning and power.
    “Show me where He approved of sex between two same sexed people.”

    You’ve repeated this fraudulent argument several times. So first, sandi – quote the passage where the name Sandi Luckins is explicitly affirmed.

    Then, cite the passage where Jesus says that anything that is not affirmed is condemned.

  • Show me where Christ endorses the name Sandi Luckins.

    Your argument is dishonest, and it is damning for you. It also proves completely failure and incompetence on your part. You cannot back up your false claims about what the Bible does say, so you invent a new rule that isn’t in the Bible, and that you don’t live up to yourself.

  • You are the one justifying sin, sandi, not me. Your false accusation is sin, please repent.

    Bear in mind, sandi, that your diversion indicates that you cannot defend your false claim. So you sinned when you lied about straight men not sleeping with other men. And because you are a sinner, with unrepentant sin, by your own words, you are not a Christian.

  • D.F. Wright already showed the real deal back in the 1980’s. The Greek word arsenokoites derives from, (and can even today actually be found in), the Levitical prohibitions against homosexual behavior in chapters 18 and 20, in the LXX version of the Old Testament.

    (LXX version was the version used by Greek-speaking Jews of Jesus’ day. You can find it online.)

    So honestly, there’s no way for gays to get rid of 1 Cor. 6:9-11. No joke.
    It ain’t going away.

  • sandi, slanderer, I’ve already pointed out that your interpretation of this passage is not only wrong, it makes you a slanderer.

    Homosexuality is not a sin, but every time you post that, you are attempting satanic black magic – trying to combine your will and desire with words to harm other people.

  • Ah, the irony of your lies, sandi.

    Mind reading is not necessary, you’ve sinned against me, and you said that unrepentant sinners are not Christian.

  • Nice satanic black magic there, sandi. No matter how much you desire it, homosexuality is not a sin, and your constant repetition of that lie will never change it.

    “Homosexuality is a sin for which Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, Mark. Christ does not condone homosexuality.”

    Not according to God, sandi. So apparently, you reject God and Jesus Christ.

    Once again, your post demonstrates incredible incompetence on your part. I carefully and clearly refute your premise, you spew more of your black magic spells.

    I’ve addressed your fraud about the sin of Sodom, and perhaps you haven’t seen it yet. I could check the time stamp on your replies to see if you are just pretending I haven’t proven your wrong already. Did you repeat your false claim knowing I’ve addressed it already?

    Let me look. Hmmm. Ah, you wrote this first. But when you did read the detailed post that refuted your claim, you replied:
    “homosexuality is a sin, and it is immoral Mark”

    So you are too incompetent to even attempt to address the material I presented, and reduced to spamming this thread of empty falsehood.

  • Your claims are false. Even Exodus International, the largest ex-gay group in the world, until they closed up, admitted that not one of them hundreds of thousands of clients ever changed from gay to straight.

    ” They live normal, happy lives.”

    Nope. The testimony of ex-gays proves otherwise.

  • Nope, you persecute hundreds of millions of people, and Jesus said that what you do to the oppressed, you do to Him.

    Truth is, you hate Jesus.

  • Your empty dismissal only proves that you cannot refute a word of any of my posts.

    The reality, sandi, is that I, and for that matter Ben, know a great deal more about this issue that you do.

    “If you need to insult, you don’t have much of a case.”

    Of course, the sole purpose of this post of yours is to insult me, as a substitute for logic, reason, or Scripture. Whereas I made no insult, I accurately characterized your abuse of the Bible.

  • Nice avoidance of the issue. You are accused of telling lies about GLBTQ people, you respond with a passage that is about God, creating the clear impression that you think you are God.

    You are not. By your own reasoning, as an unrepentant sinner, you are not a Christian.

  • Prove that anything I’ve written is dishonest. You see what the sin and hate in your heart makes you see, nothing more.

  • First off, sandi, slanderer, I have not articulated any anger, you are projecting. In fact, your snarky intellectually empty and vacuous posts indicate your emotional state, and clearly indicate anger.

    Second, since the sick theology you espouse destroys human lives, and you and your peers here not only lie about my life and that of people I know and love, anger would not be an inappropriate emotion.

    But I’ve encountered evil people so much, that your heresy and slanders don’t invoke an emotional response. But you desperately want them to, don’t you?

    I mean, that’s why you are trying to characterize me as angry – cuz that is the emotion so you so desperately need to invoke. You cannot feel good about yourself here, nor can your peers, if you don’t make people angry. This is all about your need to dominate and control others.

    That’s why you rely on empty, meaningless, fraudulent claims full of disparaging nonsense about people far more moral than you – because you get off on making people angry. It makes you feel good, doesn’t it?

    There’s another way of looking at it, as well. See, you interpret my rebuke of your beliefs and behavior and lifestyle as coming from anger.

    So that means that you know with absolute clarity, that your abusive attacks on GLBTQ people come from your anger.

  • That is a question you should ask yourself, sandi. Of course, it shows how consumed you are with rage.

  • “ot in the least…..they do condemn people thinking they are saved when
    they continue to unrepentantly sin against Christ though”

    Yes, they condemn you.

  • “Yes, their immorality was condemned before the angels arrived.”

    Yet you falsely and knowingly claim they were punished for wanting to have sex with angels.

    “Let’s stick with scripture now…The men came to the house for an orgy – one of the immoralities of S&G.”

    So you demand a standard, and then break it. No where in the text does the word ‘orgy’ appear. Nothing in the Bible indicates that orgies were associated with Sodom and Gomorrah. You are inventing things that are not in Scripture.

    “They wanted “yada” to have intimate sex with the men, the same term used between Adam and Eve.”

    The same term used between God and Moses. So by your irrationality, God had sex with Moses, the people of Israel, and the people of Egypt. My, aren’t you the kinky one.

    God says you are wrong,I and others have covered this already.

    ” Lot told them this was evil and offered his daughters – ”

    So you think Lot knew the men were homosexuals, despite their wives and children and two he married to two of his daughters – and but offered them his daughters anyways?

    Is Lot an idiot then? Was he trying to trick them or deceive or mock them? If so, then he could not have been righteous.

    Your interpretation just is not rational.

  • “Same-sex attraction **definitely** doesn’t make a person gay.”

    That is not rational. That is like saying being frozen doesn’t make water ice.

  • ” The Greek word arsenokoites derives from”

    That is a theory, one held by evil people who long to murder homosexuals. There is no proof for it.

    ” the Levitical prohibitions against homosexual behavior in chapters 18 and 20, in the LXX version of the Old Testament.”

    However, neither passage is about homosexuals, and you are making a call to murder seven hundred millions human beings to please your false god.

    Now, you carefully used the term ‘homosexual behavior’ since the passage describes a married man cheating on his wife with a priest. The real issue is temple prostitution but you need to avoid that.

    However, since by your standard the condemnation of male-male sexuality in the context of temple prostitution and adultery creates a universal condemnation of homosexual sex – then the hundreds of passages that explicitly condemn specific contexts and situations of heterosexual sex, the like the laws the forbid sex with one’s parents, or adultery, or sex when a woman is menstruating, also must create a universal condemnation of heterosexual sex.

    Your fraud has made all sex sin for you, floyd.

    “So honestly, there’s no way for gays to get rid of 1 Cor. 6:9-11. No joke.
    It ain’t going away.”

    We don’t have to make it go away, fraud, it is not about us.

  • I just want to point out that your request was empty grandstanding, here near the top, since you replied to me further down below:

    “But no, I don’t see the point of trying to defend the book line by line as long as it takes.”

  • Show me where he endorses heterosexuality.
    “It is better to marry than to burn” is hardly a ringing endorsement is it?

  • But the very same passages condemn reviling and slandering, which you, JP, and sandi do all the time.

  • It has to do with behavior, not desire in both cases. So 1 Corinthians 6:9 does NOT mean a change of attractions from male to female.

  • It easier whenever semen is the medium carrying the virus.

    How did you go from vaginal sex in one post to compare with anal sex, to oral sex in this one for comparison with anal sex?

  • The mouth protects people from getting the virus. Saliva helps to inactivate the virus. The vaginal wall is thicker than the rectum is, therefore it is a little less likely to receive the virus than anal. However, in Vaginal sex, women are more at risk than men.

  • Re-read Gen 19:1-9 which is the story of Lot in the city of Sodom.

    According to King James Version:

    >>>
    But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: 5And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
    <<<

    Other translations use the phrase "have sex with them" instead of "know them". The key word is "yada" in Hebrew. This is where the contention comes in.

    "Yada" is a basic word which means "know" in a variety of ways. Kkowing God or God's will, knowing someones mind, thoughts or feelings, knowing an event, having knowledge in general, knowing a person physically or carnally, ALL use the same word — "yada".

    The word "yada" is used more than 900 times in the OT. But it refers to sex (carnal knowledge) Less than 20 of those times. One of those clear references is Gen 4:1 when Adam knew [yada] Eve and later she gave birth to Cain and the interpretation there is obvious! But what is the evidence for believing that carnal knowledge is what the men of the city are referring to in Gen 19?

    Answer: There is none. The "knowledge" that the men seek of the visitors is not sex but interrogation. The visitors were strangers, and Lot was a stranger himself. The men of the city are suspicious and want to know whether these foreigner are there with good or ill intent. It was not for sex.

  • Mark makes a complex rebuttal of your argument Sandi, do ALL the right things we’re supposed to do in interpreting Scripture — looking at word translations, and context, and relationships between one part and another, and so on — and all you can says “homosexuality is sin”.

    You’re just not engaging the argument, Sandi. I wish you were…but… oh well.

  • The word “yada” is used in the passage, when the men of the city surrounded the house where the angelic visitors were with Lot, and demanded that Lot send the visitors out to the crowd “so that we may know [yada] them”.

    Yada is used more than 900 times in the OT covering meanings such as: knowledge in general, knowledge of God, knowledge of a person’s mind, knowledge of an event, knowledge of a person’s body or carnal knowledge.

    An example of carnal knowledge is Gen 4:1 when Adam knew Eve [yada] who gave birth of Cain And the context makes if obvious that yada refers to carnal knowledge. But the meaning of “yada” is determined by the >>context<<

    In the city of Sodom, the context clues point in a completely different direction. 1) the angelic personages were VISITORS; 2) Lot himself was not a native of Sodom; These two facts, plus Ezekiel's comments that Sodom didn't help the poor and needy (Ezek 16::49) points to suspicion of the foreigner. The knowledge ("yada") that the men of the city were looking for was not carnal knowledge, but the knowledge of the intent. They were suspicious, and the wanted to INTERROGATE the visitor. And Lot knew what that entailed. Which is why he resisted.

    So No. The men were NOT asking for sex, Instead, then men were intending to interrogate (to know "yada") , and Lot was saying "chill out…."

  • Sandi, HERE is one quote where you claim Christ wrote all the Bible. Christ himself attributes the Law being from Moses. “For the Law was given through Moses. Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17) Remember when you claimed you never stated this? What about where Paul states, “I state, but not the Lord?” Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 7:25 that he had no command from Jesus and only giving his opinion. Why would Paul ever state that if Paul wrote verbatim what Christ told him to say in every instance?

  • I am merely making the point that Arsenokoitus DEFINITELY does not mean homosexual orientation. It DEFINITELY also does not mean Lesbian, since Arseno means male. It COULD mean anal sex between men, but it doesn’t mean oral sex between men. In the past, you have made a case it could mean male cult prostitute. I do think it could refer to that. Paul doesn’t seem to condemn anal sex in and of itself, but mainly when it is combined with idol worship and exploitation, just as heterosexual marriage is condemned in that context as well. Also, if it does mean anal sex, it doesn’t mean it is evil, but rather it is ritually impure. Bodily emissions rendered both a man impure when he ejaculates and a woman impure when she menstruates. Therefore, having sex with a woman during her menstrual cycle was similarly impure to anal sex. I think a person CAN do anal sex if they take precautions, but it can be quite risky without precautions. Do no harm is the principle to live by, and anal sex can be done harmlessly.

  • Exodus International helped tens of thousands of same-sex-attracted persons, and its founder is STILL happily married to his (female) wife. Yes, he got depressed and killed Exodus as a result of national gay pressure and some bad theology he got bogged down into, but his own current married life at least proves that the “Ex-gay” thing is real.

    Also check out the life stories and information at Restored Hope Network. (I’m saying this not so much for Mark1115 or Jonathan Merritt, but for readers who still have an open mind and a sincere willingness to check out change-oriented ministries and what they offer.)

    http://www.restoredhopenetwork.com

  • Tell you what. I’ll paste a few in Plain English for the readers, and YOU go ahead and paste them in Arabic.

    1. Koran texts which prove that Allah is NOT the same as the God of the Bible:

    “They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.” (Koran, 5:73)

    “Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!” (Koran, 5.75)

    2. Koran texts which prove that Allah opposes homosexual behavior:

    We also sent Lut. (Same as the biblical “Lot.”)
    He said to his people: ‘Will you commit lewdness such as no people in creation ever committed before you?
    For you come in lust to men in preference to women.
    No, you are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds’
    (Koran 7:80-81).

    (Lut speaking again)
    ‘Of all the creatures in the world, will you approach males, and leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates?
    No, you are a people transgressing (all limits) !’
    (Koran 26:165-166).

  • Hmm. Gotta lotta venom stored up, Ben.

    Will you ever be free of it, or will you carry it all the way to the judgment bar of God?

  • As you said: “Yes, I saw that particular ABC show you’re referring to. Now THAT’s the kind of mess that (as per a recent thread about “apologizing”), makes me want to apologize to you as a Christian. I’m sorry, and I’m glad those people got exposed.” So fine, you agree it’s a “mess”. Then why shouldn’t people ask what’s going on, where’s the money going, and to whom? It’s because people failed to ask, failed to inquire, and failed to investigate what exactly was going on that allowed these abuses to happen, and continue to happen. Sandi is like a one-trick pony here – constantly disparaging gay people, and tirelessly promoting this harmful, debunked “therapy” (which is in fact illegal in numerous states.) When the worldwide medical community has strongly come out against it, calling the practice “harmful”, and its practitioners “unethical”, people of good conscience should start asking questions. I note Sandi STILL refuses to answer if she takes money or not. Why is that? I’m not afraid to ask.

  • No, I’m not Sandi, you are hurting gay people by promoting discredited, medically unsound and unethical garbage. I am a supporter of the gay community. I get no money from them, I am retired. Now, I answered your question, you answer mine. Once again, do you, a family member, or an organization you are involved with take money for promoting and/or practicing harmful (and in some states illegal) “conversion therapy”? Why won’t you answer the question Sandi? What do you have to hide?

  • I read that article, but the woman does NOT claim she is no longer queer. Actually, many gay men have been married. This does not change their attractions from male to female. I really can’t speak for women, but I have met women who said their Lesbian feelings, even though they were married to men, were not a choice. I also read this study of heterosexually married gay men which found that heterosexual marriage INCREASES gay feelings in gay men.

  • I think you are dodging the issue. We are in THIS instance NOT debating whether homosexual behavior is a sin or not, but rather whether someone who is exclusively attracted to the same gender as is myself can change to being exclusively attracted to the opposite gender. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 does NOT speak of a change in attractions but rather it is a change in some kind of behavior. Just WHAT behavior it is talking about is a matter of debate. It is NOT debatable that αρσενοκοιτης does NOT refer to same sex attraction.

  • To become abstinent would be enough. The fomes peccati , i.e. the inclination to sin, remains in all the faithful until the end of this life.

  • Oh? Who has yet to change their DNA? There are people who have come out of homosexuality.

  • This is so much crap. As a woman who very nearly married a gay man back in the 1980s (because we were told this would help him become straight), I find all of this reprehensible. There’s no evidence this works, and lots and lots of evidence that families have been messed up with the lies promoted by the “reparative therapy” groups.

    Reparative therapy hurt gays and lesbians a lot, but it also hurt the ones they love and their families as well. There’s a lot of hurting out there, and Joseph Nicolosi and his ilk (like you) have never, ever apologized for what you’ve done. *scowl*

  • Prove that she is telling the truth, that she is not bi. If she claimed to have become a rhinocerous, would it mean that the word ‘human’ has nothing to do with walking erect on two feet, having teeth for both meat and plant material, and so on?

    What happened with John Paulk – gay, then supposedly ex-gay, then gay again
    http://www.advocate.com/commentary/coming-out/2015/09/01/14-ex-ex-gays-paving-way-forward

    Your post doesn’t alter the fact that ‘gay’ is the colloquial term for men who are sexually attracted to their own gender. You are just being dishonest again.

  • 1 Timothy 2:12 states, “I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[a] she must be quiet.” This is NOT qualified by saying it is only in a Church. A woman is not to speak with authority in any setting to any man.

  • What he did was make money by hurting and slandering millions of people – and all along – he judged millions of people.

  • There is no credible evidence that anyone has changed from gay to straight. Gender is not determined by DNA, but by chromosomes – a step higher.

  • No fraud, you’ve already admitted that you lied about reading the Q’ruan, and that you can cheat by copying and pasting.

  • “Exodus International helped tens of thousands of same-sex-attracted persons,”

    Nice lie, floyd. You really ought to consider taking an ex-liar seminar or five or six.

    ” and its founder is STILL happily married to his (female) wife.”

    Married to a woman, and being heterosexual, are not the same thing.

    “Yes, he got depressed and killed Exodus as a result of national gay pressure and some bad theology he got bogged down into, but his own current married life at least proves that the “Ex-gay” thing is real.”

    No, floyd, it does not. But the millions of people who failed to become heterosexual after spending years and huge sums of money in con games like Exodus, prove it is a fraud.

    “Also check out the life stories and information at Restored Hope Network.”

    Since you ignore the many millions more for whom these sick therapies accomplished nothing – your handful of frauds lying about their own lives means nothing.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-callahan/cured-of-being-cured-the-_b_6992208.html
    “It only took four and a half years for the façade to wear down, for me
    to be unable to continue lying to everyone around, and most important, for me to be unable to keep lying to myself. I left the church, publicly, while explaining I was never “cured,” I was “still gay,” and I could no longer keep lying and pretending. I even confessed that suicide had been heavy in my mind, and that I had taken to sleeping with a loaded .38, dreaming of pulling the trigger.”

    http://www.newsweek.com/ex-ex-gay-pride-249282
    “On a Tuesday evening nearly 14 years ago, John Paulk walked into a gay bar in Washington, D.C. At another time in his life, Paulk would have fit right in. But in 2000, Paulk’s life as an openly gay man was far behind him. He was then one of the most prominent so-called ex-gays in the country, only two years removed from appearing on the cover of Newsweek, posing with his smiling wife for an article about gay conversion therapy.

    In front of the crowds and cameras, Paulk was the image of certainty. But backstage, he was faltering. More than that, he knew he was lying.

    “It’s funny, for those of us that worked in it, behind closed doors, we knew we hadn’t really changed,” he says. “Our situations had changed—we had gotten married, and some of us had children, so our roles had changed. I was a husband and father; that was my identity. And the homosexuality had been tamped down. But you can only push it down for so long, and it would eke its way out every so often.”

    “I would be in hotel rooms, and I would be on my face sobbing and crying on the bed,” he says. “I felt like a liar and a hypocrite. Having to go out and give hope to these people. I was in despair knowing that what I was telling them was not entirely honest. I couldn’t do it anymore.”

    Even in its earliest days, Exodus’s philosophy—that same-sex attraction meant a person was “broken” and could be “fixed”—was undermined by the reality of its members’ actions. Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper, two of the co-founders, left the movement in 1979 to be in a committed relationship with one another. (Bussee has spent the decades since actively fighting Exodus’s message.) John Evans, one of the founders of Love in Action (LIA), an early ex-gay ministry that helped establish Exodus in 1974, left LIA after a friend committed suicide over his distress at being unable to change his sexual orientation. “They’re destroying people’s lives,” Evans told The Wall Street Journal in 1993. “They’re living in a fantasy world.” (LIA has since changed its name to Restoration Path.)”

    See, you and your peers – you want to destroy people, you work to drive them to suicide.

    “Then it crumbled further. In 2012, psychologist Robert Spitzer—one of the leaders of the successful push in the 1970s for the American Psychiatric Association to declassify homosexuality as a disease—retracted a controversial study, published in 2003, often cited by the ex-gay community that had concluded some “highly motivated” individuals could change their sexual orientation. Spitzer wrote an apology to LGBT people
    who “wasted time and energy” on reparative therapy.By
    that time, policy within Exodus began to genuinely shift. “We renounced and forbid reparative therapy,” in 2012, Chambers tells Newsweek.”

    “but for readers who still have an open mind”

    You do not have an open mind. You have an agenda of deceit. So why do you have this desperate need to harm GLBTQ people?

  • Proeject much, Doc?

    I don’t hate anybody, doc. thats all you. But I’m am so tired of the misery and pain that self righteous bigoTs feel it is their duty to inflict on others in the name of god, love, and faith.

    Gay kids kill themselves because of people like you. In fact, people like you used to kill people like you. But then, they called it racial protection and racial superiority..

    You’d think that you as black man would be sensitive to that. But then “you’d think” is an oxymoron.

  • I hear you Ali, but let me go a step further. I want Jim Johnson and even Jonathan Merritt to read this.

    I have a former alcoholic uncle who, at the moment God healed him, totally lost his taste for alcohol itself.

    Beer, wine, whisky, not ONE of these drinks tempted him again for the rest of his life. He could not explain how or why, he only said “God took the taste out of my mouth.”

    Now I agree that in general we’ll continue to face trials and temptations, but it’s time for Christians to stop accepting DEFEAT when Christ and the Scriptures promises you victory.

    Does God give us Christians his mighty power merely for us to continue slaving to our sins? No!!

    We can experience His victory, His holiness, His healing. It took Mario Bergner 10 years to get out of homosexuality, but God DID get him out.

    At one time I bought into the line that God couldn’t really heal homosexuality, couldn’t alter the so-called “orientation.” But then I met a man who God even went THERE and healed him. That completely changed my vision of what God can do.

    Why not trust God all the way. and let Him fix YOU AND ME all the way, even if others say it ain’t working for them?

  • Well, I’m certainly glad you didn’t marry that gay man (and Dr. Nicolosi never recommended any such thing, that’s for sure.) That’s not therapy, that’s just disaster.

    As you suggest, there’s a lot of hurting people out there. Part of the reason they are hurting is because we Christians keep on telling ’em that our God, our Christ and our Bibles ain’t got no power, ain’t got no healing and saving and deliverance anymore.

    We talk and act like 1 Cor 6:9-11 and 1 Cor 10:13 don’t work against the almighty label of “sexual orientation”, and then we wonder why folks can’t stop slaving on the gay plantation.

    Nicolosi at least understood that change is possible, getting off that horrific plantation is possible. And he understood that the science of psychology could assist to some degree in helping people escape.

    “Apologies”? Seriously?

  • You’re disgusting. Claiming that being LGBT is like being on the plantation, like being in slavery is a horrible, horrible thing. The only reason being LGBT is horrible is because of people like you, people who think that LGBT people are wrong, evil and need to be cured of their sexual orientation because you believe the Bible (not God, not Jesus, but a book written by men) says so. The Bible also treats women as property of men and of course endorses and gives rules for slavery. We as a modern society have gotten beyond that, and we can get beyond your hatred for LGBT persons.

    Has it ever occurred to you that there wouldn’t be any of this social upheaval if you and yours wouldn’t continue to insist that LGBT people are not truly human and should be shut away from society until they conform to your heterosexual norms?

    For the record, I’m a single, heterosexual, never-married middle aged woman, and I know very well that my status in so many conservative/fundamentalist churches is pretty close to equivalent of that of LGBT persons, because I failed to fulfill the female prime directive, which is to marry and pop out children. By the way, if that’s something you want to do, more power to you. But you shouldn’t be forced into it. Just like LGBT people shouldn’t be forced to be straight because it offends you and your religious sensibilities.

  • All who are men who insist they are women posses XY chromosomes and all women who say that they are men posses XX chromosomes. There is no changing that.

  • But that’s the kicker, Mirele: Gay slavery IS indeed slavery. There are NO upsides to it.
    Why do you think God opposes it so sharply in the Bible? Because of what it does to people. It’s a mess. It’s a living pillory, a living prison, a plantation of spiritual misery and bondage. It’s well worth it to help seekers and questioners get their escape on.

    Meanwhile, does the Bible say that you MUST marry and pop out kiddies? The answer is No, even if some Christians have badgered you about it (and I’m sorry they did).
    One of my aunts, a retired teacher, is now 72. She never married, never had kids, and yet has been attending the same Baptist church for 40 years — and they never cared about it. Yes they are fundies. But the so-called “female prime directive”, ain’t no Biblical prime directive, so they never cared about it at all. Does that help?

  • You wish nothing had to do with homosexuality. It’s all homosexuality no matter how you try to dice it up. It’s still sin.

  • You support the homosexual “community” – you are supporting them going to Hell. They need to be told the truth and set free from their sin. You endorse their perdition.

  • You say one thing and write another. Read what you said, and then read the reality – scripture.
    It’s all been explained to you several times, Daniel. Paul learned through revelation from Christ. Why do you ask if you don’t want to learn?

  • Sorry Ben, but I’ve done enough pastoral counseling in places of incarceration, with suicidal teens and adults, to know that the standard gay-activist lies of “Gay kids kill themselves because of people like you”, are indeed lies.

    I don’t know why you want SSA-afflicted people to keep on hurting, keep on slaving away, on that horrific plantation of inner misery. I don’t even know why YOU wanna stay there anymore. Your plantation is doing great damage to many young people (and oldsters as well). It causes people to disconnect from God, from hope, from help, from healing. It carries depression — and fatality.

    Yet you gay activists do your Pride Week events, your Parades, your Drag Shows, your constant media-saturation (like the big photograph above of two All-American gay men kissing). And all the while, you are selling a lie, a living horror, a Plantation full of gay slavery, to SSA-afflicted youth and adults.

    However, that’s not to attack or disrespect you. God would be the first to say you got good qualities that He instilled in you. He’d say He put His image in Ben so I better treat Ben right. But that plantation you’re stuck on … God want you and the others outta there. Nicolosi understood that.

  • Actually, yada means intimate sex.
    No…they wanted intimate sex. Lot was telling them, ““I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly.” because homosexuality is wickedness.

  • “Yada” means to know, like Adam knew Eve – intimate sex with children as a result. Homosexuality is a sin and it is immoral. Jesus said that he would forgive and cleanse us of our sin if we repent.

  • no homosexuality there. Also Christ taught that marriage is a man and a woman.

    1 Corinthians 7: 2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.

  • Of course not, and homosexuals are condemned by them. Homosexuality is a sin that will not let the person see the Kingdom of Heaven. Christ said that He would forgive and heal us of our sin, if we repent. Are you in need of repentance, Mark? (edited)

  • Actually, I made that assessment of you when I offered to help you. I suggest that you look up “projection” while you are at it. The offer is still open to help you though.

  • We have no need to lie. We are on God’s side. Christ taught that homosexuality is a sin that will keep one out of the kingdom of Heaven, and Mark, as hard as you try to deny it, that fact will never change. Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever and homosexuality kills people. Repentance is the only answer. God bless you.

  • You have made no sound posts to refute. Homosexuality is a sin that Christ said He would forgive and cleanse one of.

  • No, you are not sorry. You love it, just like you love the lies you are happy to tell about me and millions of people like me, who live out our lives as fully as anyone else, authentically, as we are made.

    And there, on parade, is your ignorance, bile, and completely unwarranted faith in your Your wholly imaginary superiority as a putative heterosexual, putative moral person, putative Christian, and human being.

    What you, and the other christiainsts really hate, is that we are no longer buying the story that you are telling, or the product you are selling, or the narrative you have created for our lives. And that bothers you no end. You would prefer us to be on the plantation, alrighty.

    The white supremacists have always hated uppity negroes who did not know their place. That’s why there were victims like Emmett till. And what you hate are the uppity f*gs who also don’t know their place, and for the very same reasons.

  • ex-LGBT for Jesus Christ
    homosexuals anonymous
    Restored Hope Network
    and many more. Some may also help you to develop a relationship with Jesus that isn’t based on defying His word. Blessings Mark.

  • If you read further to 1 Timothy 2:13-14, it states that Adam was not beguiled, but Eve was beguiled and transgressed. It isn’t that egalitarian a thought at all.

  • Homosexuality is a sin Mark.Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
    Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

  • That’s true unrepentant sinners are not Christian……lol…..Which church do you attend? Homosexuals are unrepentant sinners hon.

  • Paul does NOT claim that EVERYTHING he taught was from Revelation. And actually Romans 1 was NOT the words of Jesus but rather those of his opponents, which he addresses in Romans 2, for instance, by telling his opponents that they should not judge. 1 Corinthians 7 where it states, “a man should not touch a woman” is another example of a quotation, which he then responds to.

  • Except, I’m not wrong. I’m with Christ on this, and He taught that homosexuality is a sin.

  • I understand that you are spamming this thread with empty falsehood, which Is why I’m trying to help you. Homosexuality is a sin and the result, like all sin, is the second death.

  • floydlee…I have a friend the same. As soon as he accepted Christ as his Saviour, he lost the desire to drink.

  • So you keep saying. Repeating something over and over doesn’t make it true. And your harmful “advice” to gay people flies in the face of worldwide medical consensus. Still evading the question, eh Sandi? Why the continued refusal to answer a simple question? Doing something you know is illegal in your state? Do you, a family member, or an organization you are involved with take money for promoting and/or practicing harmful (and in some states illegal) “conversion therapy”? Answer the question. Be honest.

  • So did the witch burners and the Nazis.
    not being a Christian, Ill feel quite free to judge, just as if I WERE a Christian.

  • From what I have seen, floydlee believes Christ. Christ taught that homosexuality is a sin that upon repentance, He will forgive one of.
    Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
    Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

  • Actually, those passages from the Quran are legitimate. They also throw homosexuals off of buildings.

  • She’ll only feel secure if she thinks she can find an excuse for why the truth needs not to be known. She cannot attack scripture, so Christians are next best. Blessings to you Edward. (edited)

  • floyd is no more interested in truth, let alone nuance, than he is interested in being a turnip.

  • Your comments have displayed that you are not saved, Mark. You still want to hurt precious people who the Lord died for.

  • They “helped” thjousands?
    hahahahayhahahahaha.
    Alan Chambers, former head of exodux, admitted the he helped NOONE, not ONCE, not ever. Not even himself,.
    I apologize. They did help people like alan Chambers and Exodus accrue a whole bunch of cash and a totally imaginary dominion over their own lives.

  • If I never said it, it would still be true. Homosexuality kills people. Your endorsement of it is patting their behind while they journey toward their death. Something you need to think about.

  • And they will NEVER EVER apologize. Because to do that would be to admit that they were wrong, that their interpretation of the bible was wrong, what they did with it as a weapon was wrong, which in turn would lead them to the worst conclusion– that their faith was wrong.
    I met nicolosi once or twice, decades ago. My gaydar was going off like a four alarm fire. It was very clear to me that he was yet another so called doctor, intent on exercising his very real personal demons under the guise of exorcising my wholly mythical ones.

  • Where did you get those tidbits of fallacy Daniel. If you have been trusting those lies, get yourself tested hon. You could be carrying HIV and giving it away.

  • so all you can offer are excuses and insults instead of scripture? Perhaps you need to rethink your assertions, Mark.

  • DNA has northing to do with no longer being homosexual.
    Ex-gay has nothing to do with becoming heterosexual.

  • I was in an HIV vaccine study where they tested for the actual virus. I was always negative.

  • Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
    Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.
    There you go. God bless.

  • My hope is not at all to convince Sandi, but to keep the public from being convinced by her. I know that never in a million years would I sway her one bit.

  • Please note “Contrary to nature” “Unnatural acts” “Shameless acts.”
    Romans 1 26:…For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men

  • And you are trying to justify your sin more. Read some scripture and learn Mark. i suggest you begin in the book of John and learn about Jesus.

  • Mario Bergner? Really?
    it only took him 10 years of self hatred ot accomplish it. Maybe Jesus just wanted him to really really, really suffer for it.
    Except that he never came out of homosexuality, he just managed to suppress it, all the while attacking gay people who didn’t buy his story.

  • You are playing russian roulette Daniel. If you are going to continue, at least have enough respect for yourself to protect yourself.

  • Odd, floydlee is evil to you, when you are the one trying to hurt homosexuals and send them to their death. Christ died to help them, and you also.

  • I agree with you more than you think. The doctrine of the fomes peccati doesn’t say at all that Christians are “to continue slaving to our sins”. Quite to the contrary! It says that despite the fact that temptations will continue, it is possible, by the grace of God, not to sin.

    The decisive thing here is that wrong inclinations, when they are fought against, will not have the power to lead us to sin. Temptation is not sin. It only results in sin when given in to.

    I’m not dogmatic about the possibility of homosexual inclinations to be healed. I’m not claiming any expertise in this question. My only point is that, whether this is possible or not, it is always possible for Christians to walk in the grace of God and not to give in to temptations. It is always possible to avoid mortal sin.

    So my position is that there is no excuse for homosexually inclined Christians, or for anyone who experiences strongly sinful tendencies., to continue a sinful way of life.

    In order to be finally saved it is necessary for all of us to leave mortal sin behind us. For some this will be a hard struggle, for some it may be not. We should remember that many great saints experienced terrible temptations even to the end of their lives. Sometimes God does seem to make great saints by not taking away their temptations.

  • One day science may catch up to the wisdom of God. Christ taught that homosexuality is not good and He will not accept a practitioner of such in Heaven. That’s what you need to be worried about. Blessings to you today Croquet.

  • That doesn’t answer the question as how Arsenokoitus means same attractions as opposed to behaviors. Even Leviticus only speaks of acts, never attractions. I would grant that the word Arsenokoitus is probably derived from Leviticus. It only means anal sex and not oral sex according to Rabbinic sources.

  • For the third time….no matter how you try to slice it, homosexuality is a sin, Daniel. Christ said that He will forgive and cleanse us of our sin, but we need to repent. Your “rabbinic” sources are wrong.

  • Here is something which DOES state that oral sex has a much lower risk than either vaginal or anal sex. https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/oralsex.html which states,
    “The chance an HIV-negative person will get HIV from oral sex with an HIV-positive partner is extremely low. However, it is hard to know the exact risk because a lot of people who have oral sex also have anal or vaginal sex. The type of oral sex that may be the riskiest is mouth-to-penis oral sex. But the risk is still very low, and much lower than with anal or vaginal sex.”
    So, as long as a gay man does not do anal sex, his risk of getting HIV is much lower, even much lower than a heterosexual woman getting it from a man from Vaginal sex.

  • How do you know they are wrong?Can you read Hebrew? Anyway Arsenokoitus literally means coitus between men. Coitus is a particular kind of sex. Anal Sex would be considered coitus. Oral sex is not considered to be coitus.

  • “Also Christ taught that marriage is a man and a woman.”

    But, for example, he never taught that the earth is not flat, and that the earth revolves around the sun instead of vice-versa. If the guy was really the son of a god, he would have certainly known those things, so he has no credibility whatsoever. His level of ignorance was generally consistent with that of people alive during his lifetime.

  • I don’t like your evasive answer. Of course I know you are going to say it is sin. You keep side stepping the issue as to whether people can completely change their feelings. I actually don’t deny people can control their behavior. You have not established that Arsenokoitus mainly means feelings as opposed to behavior.

  • Stop blathering and answer the question Sandi. Do you, a family member, or an organization you are involved with take
    money for promoting and/or practicing harmful (and in some states
    illegal) “conversion therapy”?

  • Do you, a family member, or an organization you are involved with take
    money for promoting and/or practicing harmful (and in some states
    illegal) “conversion therapy”? Answer the question.

  • I read Galatians 1. Paul states that Christ was revealed to him. He did NOT state that EVERYTHING he said and wrote was verbatim what Jesus taught him to say.

  • It states that a woman was saved through child bearing. That doesn’t qualify that she isn’t supposed to have authority over any man, whether inside or outside the Church.

  • Here is a nice final note for the Thomas Aquinas Center Nicolosi founded to “heal homosexuals.” The real Thomas Aquinas approved of same-sex love and called it ‘natural’ for some people, according to Adriano Oliva, a Dominican in France. “Amours” is the book, and it is in the process of being translated into English even as Nicolosi is being buried this week.

  • A lot of people use the name of Jesus to promote hate, but here is what Jesus said during his life in the bible against homosexuals: (______________________________________________________).

  • Sandi Luckins, if more people in the US thought as you do, the US would be a Christian fundie version of Sharia law nations, turning ancient texts into current civil laws and promoting ignorance and cruelty as God’s will. The scriptures will never be the civil law in the US, fortunately, especially since they can be used on both sides of every contentious issue. They are as clear as mud, like any attempt to make sense of ancient mythology.

  • Every major, decades-old ex-gay ministry from the US to Australia closed. Leaders admitted nobody changed orientation to heterosexual. That was after 40 years of ‘change’ claims. Restored Hate Nutwork is a 3 year old and acts like it. They have no credibility since their leader went from bisexual before conversion to bisexual today. Anne Paulk only started the new group to get revenge on her ex-gay husband for admitting there’s no such thing. Anne still sells their ‘miracle marriage’ books, but she only proves herself a scammer.

  • Meanwhile, the World Psychiatric Association joined with every national medical assn. in calling for an end to gay-curing therapies, explaining sexual orientation is not a choice. Brain scans show visible differences for homosexuals vs heterosexuals. Fetal brain scans show the differences form in utero.

  • ” when you are the one trying to hurt homosexuals and send them to their death.”

    What part of ‘thou shalt not bear false witness” comfuses you?

  • sandi, constantly sinning against me is not going to ever help you.

    I’ve already demonstrated that I know Bible better than you do. Heck, you don’t even respect it enough to capitalize that word Scripture when you refer to the Bible.

  • So you’ve just bound yourself for judgement to all of the Levitical laws, dooming your self, and rejecting God’s grace.

    Gay men do not lie with a male ‘as with a woman’, sandi. Not that ‘as with a woman’ is an accurate translation. Not that you give a damn about accuracy either.

    Gay men have sex with men as with a man. Neither passage you cited actually applies.

    Now, liar, what you render ‘as with a woman’ is in the original Hebrew ‘ mishkap ishshah’ bed wife. There is no ‘wife’s bed’ in the relationships of gay men. Further, the second word for male that is used in both passages is ‘zakar’ – priest, or a male of any kind set aside for high or holy office.

    The passages, in Hebrew, refer to a husband (ish) cheating on his wife (ishshah) in her own bed (mishkap) with a priest (zakar). They are not about homosexuality, but about temple prostitution.

    But you cited them, binding yourself to all of the OT Law, and putting yourself outside of Christ’s redemption through Grace.

    Worse than that, sandi, you are now a mass murderer in thought and word. You’ve just endorsed murdering seven hundred million human beings as human sacrifices to your false god.

    That is monstrously evil. So what if you think it is their fault – you embrace killing homosexuals by the millions to make your false – and evil – god happy.

    And sandi, it is because this very sick interpretation that GLBTQ people around the world have been murdered, raped, burned alive, bombed, shot and poisoned, persecuted in every damn way.

    You are responsible, as is everyone of your peers. You commit extraordinary and extreme evil, just so you can feel good. You are worse than the Nazis, they murdered 6 million people, but here you are calling for seven hundred million people to be killed.

    Jesus said that evil teachers are revealed by their evil fruit – and your fruit – calling for seven hundred million people to be murdered – is truly evil.

  • Little self-righteous mass murderer – I’ve already presented Scripture you cannot refute.

    Homophobia hurts people. You and your peers get people raped and murdered:

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/07/26/opinion/26corrective-rape.html?_r=0

    “Just as disturbing is a practice called “corrective rape” — the rape of gay men and lesbians to “cure” them of their sexual orientation.

    In one of the few cases to attract press attention, in 2008, Eudy
    Simelane, a lesbian, was gang-raped and stabbed to death. Her naked body was dumped in a stream in the Kwa Thema township outside Johannesburg. A soccer player training to be a referee for the 2010 FIFA World Cup, she was targeted because of her sexual orientation.

    In 2011, Noxolo Nogwaza, 24, was raped, and stabbed multiple times
    with glass shards. Her skull was shattered. Her eyes were reportedly
    gouged from their sockets. Ms. Nogwaza had been seen earlier that
    evening in a bar with a female friend.”

    I dare you to go look at the faces of people, posted in that article, who have been raped because of the evil belief you spew up here. I dare you to imagine yourself in their place. Heck, I invite the moderators here to do the same – and the decide whether the filth you and your peers here have posted should be allowed.

    “One woman I met, Simphiwe Thandeka, was “correctively” raped three times. A tomboy, she was raped at age 13 by an uncle who didn’t approve of her “boyish” ways. “I didn’t know at the time it was rape, because I was only 13,” she told me. The next morning, she awoke bleeding and in severe pain. She spoke to her mother and grandmother, who insisted it was a family matter and was not to be spoken of again.

    Some years later, Simphiwe’s uncle decided that marriage would “cure” his niece of her sexuality. So he arranged a marriage for her. “He took me to his friend’s house and told me I must have sex with this man, because I was going to marry him next month,” she recounted. “I had no idea what was going on.”

    The friend raped Simphiwe multiple times, and beat her with a clothes hanger. “He told me I was going to be his wife and not a lesbian,” she said. The following morning, the friend returned her to her uncle’s house. “He told my uncle he couldn’t marry me because I was still a lesbian, and returned the money my uncle had given him,” she said.

    During a hospital visit, Simphiwe learned that she had contracted
    H.I.V. from her uncle and had become pregnant by his friend. “My Mum had known my uncle was positive, but she never told me,” she said.”

    This, sandi, is your fruit. This is what you produce, it is what Nicolosi produced. You, and every single person who teaches ‘homosexuality is sin’ – are responsible. God will hold you accountable.

  • You, sandi, called for GLBTQ people to be put to death, killed as human sacrifices to your false god (your ego). Your sick theology gets people brutalized and killed:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States

    In just the last six years, because of you and your peers, the following has happened:

    2010–present
    January 18, 2010 – The half-naked corpse of Myra Chanel Ical, a 51-year-old trans woman of color, was found in a vacant lot in Houston, Texas.[133]
    March 30, 2010 – Amanda Gonzalez-Andujar, a 29-year-old Latina trans woman, was found dead in her Queens, New York, apartment. The autopsy found that her attacker, Rasheen Everett, had strangled her then doused her body with bleach.[134]
    In December 2013 Everett was sentenced to 29 years to life. At
    sentencing Everett’s lawyer, John Scarpa, disputed the sentence with the
    statement: “Shouldn’t that [sentence] be reserved for people who are
    guilty of killing certain classes of individuals?” The judge, Queens
    Supreme Court Justice Richard Buchter responded, “This court believes
    every human life in sacred… It’s not easy living as a transgender, and
    I commend the family for supporting her.”[135]
    April 3, 2010 – Toni Alston, a black 44-year-old transgender woman, was shot in the front door of her home in western Charlotte, North Carolina.[136]
    May 7, 2010 – Dana A. “Chanel” Larkin, a 26-year-old black
    trans woman who worked as a prostitute, was shot three times in the head
    by her client, Andrew Olacirequi, after she asked him if he was okay
    with them having sex despite her male genitalia. She was found dead on
    the pavement of a Milwaukee street.[137]
    June 21, 2010 – Sandy Woulard, a 28-year-old trans woman, was shot in the chest in South Side, Chicago. A passing motorist found her lying in the street, and she was pronounced dead at the hospital.[138]
    October 3, 2010 – A 30-year-old male known as “la Reina” (the Queen), Bryan Almonte, 17, and Brian Cepeda, 17, were kidnapped in the Bronx by a homophobic group of youths calling themselves the Latin King Goonies,
    sodomized by foreign objects including a plunger and baseball bat,
    burned with cigarettes, and tortured for hours. One of the teenage
    victims had wanted to join the gang the attackers were part of, but when
    members saw him with the 30-year-old, they later picked him up and took
    him to an abandoned apartment and asked him if the two had had sex.
    When the teenager responded positively, he was beaten and sodomized. The
    gang later picked up the second teenager whom they had also seen with
    the 30-year-old and repeated the process. They then lured the
    30-year-old to the building with the promise of a party. When he arrived
    with alcohol, the gang tied him up and tortured him and made the
    17-year-old burn him with cigarettes. They then robbed the man’s
    40-year-old brother, coercing him by putting a cellphone to his ear so
    he could hear his brother beg to pay them.[139][140][141]
    September 11, 2010 – Victoria Carmen White, a 28-year-old black transgender woman, died of bullet wounds in her New Jersey apartment. It is unknown whether she was targeted by her killer, Alrashim Chambers, for her gender identity.[142]
    October 14, 2010 – Stacey Blahnik Lee, a 31-year-old black trans woman, was found murdered in her Philadelphia home by her boyfriend.[143]
    November 17, 2010 – 18-year-old Joshua Wilkerson was found dead in a field in Pearland, Texas,
    after being beaten to death and set on fire by a friend of 5 years,
    Hermilio Moralez. This was supposedly a retaliation to unwanted sexual
    advances.[144]
    January 11, 2011 – Chrissie Bates, a 45-year-old transgender woman, was stabbed to death in her downtown Minneapolis apartment. Arnold Darwin Waukazo was sentenced to 367 months in prison for the murder.[145]
    February 19, 2011 – Tyra Trent, a black 25-year-old trans woman, was found strangled to death in a vacant house.[146]
    April 2011 – Kevin Pennington, a gay 28-year-old male, was
    kidnapped and severely beaten in a Kentucky park by two men shouting
    anti gay epithets. David Jason Jenkins and Anthony Ray Jenkins face
    possible life sentences for anti gay hate crime.[147]
    On March 15, 2012, the Kentucky State Police assisted the FBI in
    arresting David Jenkins, Anthony Jenkins, Mable Jenkins, and Alexis
    Jenkins of Partridge, KY for the beating of Kevin Pennington during a
    late-night attack in April 2011 at Kingdom Come State Park,[148][149] near Cumberland. The push came from the gay-rights group Kentucky Equality Federation, whose president, Jordan Palmer, began lobbying the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Kentucky in August 2011[150] to prosecute after stating he had no confidence in the Harlan County Commonwealth’s Attorney to act.[151] “I think the case’s notoriety may have derived in large part from the Kentucky Equality Federation efforts,” said Harvey, the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Kentucky.[152] Mable Jenkins, and Alexis Jenkins plead guilty.[152]
    April 22, 2011 – Chrissy Lee Polis,[153] a 22-year-old trans woman, was beaten in a violent struggle by two African-American women for entering the women’s bathroom in Baltimore County, Maryland,
    which triggered her to have a seizure. A McDonald’s employee, who was
    later fired, filmed the encounter and released the film on the internet;
    it since went viral.
    Teonna Monae Brown, 19, pleaded guilty to first-degree assault and a
    hate crime in the beating, and was sentenced to 5 years in prison, plus
    three years of supervised probation. The other woman was charged as a
    juvenile and committed to a juvenile detention facility.[154]
    June 2011 – Rosita Hernandez, a Cuban trans woman, was stabbed to death in Miami.[155]
    In November 2011, Miguel Pavon was charged with first degree murder
    after his DNA was matched with samples found in the victim’s residence.[156]
    June 5, 2011 – CeCe McDonald, a young African American trans woman, was attacked outside a tavern shortly after midnight in Minneapolis, Minnesota.[157] CeCe fatally stabbed her attacker with a pair of scissors.[158] She was subsequently convicted of manslaughter and jailed for 19 months in a men’s prison.[159]
    July 20, 2011 – Lashai Mclean, a 23-year-old African American trans woman, was shot to death in Northeast, Washington, D.C.[160]
    August 11, 2011 – Camila Guzman, a Latina transgender woman, was found murdered in her apartment in East Harlem, Manhattan.[161]
    September 8, 2011 – Cameron Nelson, a 32-year-old gay man, was attacked at his place of employment in Utah.[162]
    October 11, 2011 – Shelley Hilliard, a black transgender teen who had been reported missing, had her burnt torso identified by police in Detroit.[163] Her killer, 30-year-old Qasim Raqib, was sentenced on March 6, 2012 to 25–40 years in jail.[164]
    November 15, 2011 – Danny Vega, a 58-year-old Asian-American gay man who worked as a hairdresser in Rainier Valley, Seattle, was beaten and robbed as he was taking a walk. The beating left Vega in a coma from which he later died.[165]
    November 17, 2011 – Cassidy Nathan Vickers, a 32-year-old
    black transgender woman, died from a fatal gunshot wound to the chest in
    Hollywood. Her killer, who is still unidentified, is suspected of also
    attempting to rob and non-fatally shoot another black transgender woman
    on the same day.[166]
    December 17, 2011 – Charlie Hernandez, a 26-year-old who was
    openly gay, was stabbed to death following a brawl that included
    anti-gay slurs that occurred with two men after he accidentally stepped
    on some sunglasses.[167]
    December 24, 2011 – Dee Dee Pearson, a 31-year-old transgender woman, died from bullet wounds in Kansas City, Missouri.
    Kenyan L. Jones was charged with second-degree murder and armed
    criminal action. Jones told police he paid to have sexual relations with
    Pearson, believing her to be a cisgender woman, but hours after having sex with her, discovered she was not.[168] Angered by what he considered to be a deception, he got a 9 mm caliber handgun, found Ms Pearson, and killed her.[169] Jones was arrested on suspicion of her murder.[170]
    December 29, 2011 – The body of Githe Goines, a black 23-year-old trans woman[171] who had been reported missing 2 weeks beforehand, was found in a scrapheap in New Orleans. An autopsy set that the time of her death as much as 2 days before her body was discovered, and that she had been strangled.[172]
    January 21, 2012 – Crain Conaway, a black 47-year-old trans woman, was found dead in her home in Oceanside, California.[173] Tyree Paschall Monday was arrested in connection with her murder.[174]
    February 2, 2012 – JaParker “Deoni” Jones, a 23-year-old black trans woman, was stabbed in the head while waiting at a Metrobus stop in Washington, D.C..[175]
    February 2012 – Cody Rogers, an 18-year-old teenager, was brutally assaulted and targeted with homophobic slurs at a party in Oklahoma after defending a female friend who was also attacked.[176]
    March 24, 2012 – Several transgender and crossdressing people were
    shot at and robbed in Florida by a man, suspected to be De Los Santos.
    23-year-old Tyrell Jackson was fatally wounded in the shooting, which also injured 20-year-old Michael Hunter.[177]
    April 3, 2012 – Coko Williams, a black trans woman, was found murdered in East Detroit, Michigan. The homicide may have been related to Coko’s involvement in sex work.[178]
    April 16, 2012 – Paige Clay, 23, a black trans woman, was found dead, with a bullet wound to her face in West Garfield Park, Chicago. The death was ruled as a homicide.[179]
    April 21, 2012 – Eric Unger, a 23-year-old gay man living in Illinois,
    was attacked by a group of men on the way home from a party, while they
    shouted anti-gay epithets at him. The investigation is ongoing.[180]
    May 2012 – Max Pelofske, a 21-year-old gay man, was beaten by
    a group of youths at a party in Minnesota. Pelofske claims it was a
    hate crime, but police disagree.[181]
    June 5, 2012 – Kardin Ulysse, a black 14-year-old boy, was attacked in the cafeteria of Roy Mann Junior High School in Brooklyn,
    New York, by another group of boys. He was called anti-gay slurs and
    sustained damage to the cornea of one of his eyes, leaving him blinded.
    Ulysse’s parents planned on suing New York City for failing to supervise its students properly.[182]
    June 23, 2012 – Mollie Olgin, 19 years old, and her girlfriend, Kristene Chapa, 18 years old, were found shot in the head near Violet Andrews Park in Portland, Texas.
    Olgin died at the scene and Chapa survived. Law enforcement has said
    there is no evidence to suggest that the incident is a hate crime.[183] The Human Rights Campaign and Equality Texas urged a thorough investigation by the U.S. Department of Justice, the FBI and Portland police to find the shooter.[184]
    July 5, 2012 – Tracy Johnson, a 40-year-old black trans woman, was found dead from gunshot wounds in Baltimore, Maryland.[185]
    August 14, 2012 – Tiffany Gooden, a 19-year-old black trans
    woman, was found murdered on the second floor of an abandoned building
    in Chicago. An autopsy verified that she had been stabbed to death.
    Notably, the body of Paige Clay, another young black trans woman, was
    discovered in April 3 blocks away from where Tiffany was found. The pair
    were known as friends.[186]
    August 18, 2012 – Kendall Hampton, a 26-year-old black trans
    woman, died of gunshot wounds. Eugene Carlos Dukes was arrested in early
    September for her murder, and indicted later that month.[187]
    August 26, 2012 – Deja Jones, a 33-year-old black trans woman, was shot to death in Miami. No arrest had been made.[188]
    September 3, 2012 – The body of Kyra Cordova, a 27-year-old trans woman, was found in a wooded area in Frankford, Philadelphia.[189]
    October 15, 2012 – Janette Tovar, a 43-year-old trans woman
    was murdered by her partner, Jonathan Kenney, according to police, who
    beat her and slammed her head into concrete. He was later arrested for
    her murder.[190]
    March 1, 2013 – Sondra Scarber addressed a parent about her girlfriend’s son being bullied at Seabourn Elementary School in Mesquite, Texas, and was beaten by him when he realized that she was a lesbian.[191]
    May 17, 2013 – Mark Carson, a 32-year old black gay man,[192] was shot to death by another man who trailed and taunted him and a friend as they walked down the street in Greenwich Village, Manhattan.
    When the two friends ignored the assailant’s questions, the man began
    yelling anti-gay slurs and asked one of them, “You want to die tonight?”
    Elliot Morales, 33, was arrested briefly after the shooting and charged
    with murder and weapons charges on May 19.[193] According to police, Morales said he shot Carson because he was “acting tough”.[194] Morales pleaded not guilty, but on March 9, 2016 he was convicted by a Manhattan jury of murder as a hate crime.[195] Morales was sentenced on June 14, 2016 to 40 years to life in prison.
    November 4, 2013 – Sasha Fleischman, a self identified agender (identifies as neither male nor female) 18-year-old, had their skirt set on fire while they were sleeping on an AC Transit
    bus in Oakland, California. Police arrested 16-year-old Richard Thomas
    and charged him with felony assault, with an enhancement of inflicting
    great bodily injury. Thomas admitted to police that he had started the
    fire and that he did it because he was “homophobic.”[196] On November 14, 2014, Thomas was sentenced to seven years in juvenile detention for his crime.[197]
    December 31, 2013 – A fire was started in the stairway of a gay
    nightclub in Seattle, which was quickly extinguished. After suspect
    Musab Mohammaed Masmari had told a friend that “homosexuals should be
    exterminated”, an informer from the Muslim community told the FBI
    Masamari may have also been planning terrorist attacks. The native of
    Benghazi, Libya was arrested on his way to Turkey. On July 13, 2014,
    Masmari was sentenced to 10 years on federal arson charges.[198]
    June 1, 2014 – Ahmed Said, 27, and Dwone Anderson-Young, 23, were killed execution-style shortly after midnight in the Leschi
    neighborhood of Seattle shortly after they left a gay nightclub. Both
    victims were gay, and Ahmed was apparently lured by being contacting on Grindr,
    a social app popular with gay men. Anderson-Young was receiving a ride
    home from Ahmed Said. The case was soon investigated as a possible hate
    crime. Both Said and Anderson-Young were shot multiple times;
    Anderson-Young died inside Said’s car, while Said died immediately
    outside.[199] Suspect Ali Muhammad Brown
    has confessed to killing Said, Anderson-Young, and two men in Seattle
    and New Jersey, both of whom weren’t gay. Brown had previously been
    convicted of bank fraud and is believed to be in support of Muslim
    terrorists in Somalia.
    He told investigators that he was guided strictly by his faith, and
    that the killings were “just” because they were in retaliation for
    actions by the U.S. government in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan.[200]
    February 1, 2015 – Taja DeJesus, 36, a trans woman of color, was found stabbed to death in the Bayview neighborhood of San Francisco, California.[201]
    April 13, 2015 – Ron Lane was shot dead by a former student of Wayne Community College,
    identified as Kenneth M. Stancil III, who he had supervised at the
    campus print shop. His mother made unconfirmed allegations that Lane,
    who was gay, made unwanted sexual advances towards Stancil. The shooting
    was investigated as a hate crime.[202]
    2015 – In 2016, for the first time the Justice Department used the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act to bring criminal charges against a person for selecting a victim because of their gender identity.[203][204] In that case Joshua Brandon Vallum pled guilty to murdering Mercedes Williamson in 2015 because she was transgender, in violation of the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act.[203][204]
    June 12, 2016 – The attack on an Orlando nightclub left 49 dead and 53 wounded at the gay nightclub Pulse. The gunman, 29-year-old Omar Mateen, was an American citizen of Afghan descent who pledged allegiance to terrorist organization ISIS in a 911 call he made about the attack.[205] ISIS also claimed responsibility for the attack.[206] The incident was the deadliest mass shooting in United States history.
    September 7, 2016 – Michael Phillips was attacked after
    leaving his job at a gay bar. He and his husband say they have been
    targeted for their orientation multiple times.[207]”

  • Not interested. You, again, show a lack of knowledge about Christianity in an effort to throw a hissy fit lol
    Christ died for sinners so they need not die for their sin if they repent of them. Learn Christianity 101 before wasting your time.

  • “Paul, taught by Christ, condemned homosexuality all over the NT.”

    No, liar, mass murderer in thought and word. Not in Romans 1 , or I Cor 6 or I Timothy. I’ve refuted your sick interpretation of all three passages.

    But your sick theology on this matter gets people murdered, raped, drives them to suicide:

    http://lakeweedatarrowhead.net/1atragic.htm

    Bobby Griffith grew up as the innocent, happy and intelligent all-American boy with an obedient and gentle spirit. But as he grew into adolescence he discovered that he was attracted to other teenage boys his age or older and not girls.

    And because Bobby was raised as a devout Christian and was taught that being gay was one of the worst sins imaginable, he believed that he was defective, that he was going to burn in
    Hell for eternity and that he was unworthy of God’s love. He was very aware of his church’s teachings because he was very active in the Walnut Creek Presbyterian Church in Walnut Creek, California along with his brother, 2 sisters and mother, Mary, who taught Sunday school. Unable to handle the irresolvable daily struggles and conflict with both his family and his religion, Bobby jumped off a bridge onto a busy highway in front of a large tractor trailer in Portland, Oregon on August 27, 1983 and was killed instantly due to massive internal injuries.

    His detailed personal diaries are filled with diatribes of self-hate because he believed that as a
    homosexual he was a worthless human being and innately evil because he was a tool of the Devil. He believed these things because that was what his church taught. He thought that he had no reason to live because he wasn’t allowed to love who he was attracted to and was damned no matter what he did. For example, in the spring of 1979, near his 16th birthday, Bobby wrote the
    following in his diary:

    .I can’t ever let anyone find out
    that I’m not straight. It would be so humiliating. My friends would hate me.
    They might even want to beat me up. And my family? I’ve overheard them. They’ve
    said they hate gays, and even God hates gays, too. Gays are bad, and God sends
    bad boys to hell. It really scares me when they are talking about me.”
    (2)

    .The grieving Mary Griffith was convinced that she was very much to blame for her son’s incomprehensible death. Because of her constant and incessant preaching to him of the evilness of homosexuality, by continually quoting a stream of bible verses at him in a campaign to convince him to “change” from being gay to straight, which she later learned was not
    possible, and by being openly ashamed of him, she believed that in her ignorance
    she had unknowingly helped push him over the edge. She came to believe that she
    had sacrificed her child in the name of rigid, uncaring religious tradition when all she should have done was tell him that he was perfectly all right just as he was.

    After his death her beloved church turned its back on the surviving family and was unable to help them explain what went wrong or offer much comfort. She then reexamined her theology and
    beliefs about homosexuality and was herself radically transformed when she educated herself about the truth of what it means to be gay or lesbian.”

    You have blood on your Bible, sandi, and God will hold you accountable.

    Romans 2 – which you and your sinfilled peers always ignore when looking at Romans 1, even though it is the very point Paul is driving to – condemn you:
    “You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do
    the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

    5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

    You and your peers kill people with physical violence, and verbal violence, and social violence and political violence.

  • Again, Mark, learn your scripture before having a temper tantrum. Christ died for sinners so they don’t need to. Homosexuality is a sin. Christ said that He would forgive our sins and heal us of them if we repent of them.

  • Again, you are showing your lack of knowledge about scripture to have a temper tantrum. Christ died for our sins to free us from the bondage of them, should we repent.. Repent and become a Christian Mark.

  • Ah, sandi, mass murderer – that is your tactic, insults, lies, excuses – and of course, your desire to see seven hundred million people killed as human sacrifices to your false god, your ego.

    I provided you with detailed rebuttal of your fraudulent claims about the Bible – and since then, you’ve offered nothing but cheap shots and your hunger to see all GLBTQ people killed.

    Some of the anti-gay violence in the U.S., 2000 – 2009 – that is your fault and that of your peers:

    “On April 29, 2009, the U.S. House of Representatives voted to extend
    federal law to classify as “hate crimes” attacks based on a victim’s
    sexual orientation or gender identity (as well as mental or physical
    disability).[43] The U.S Senate passed the bill on October 22, 2009.[44] The Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act was signed into law by President Barack Obama on October 28, 2009.[45]

    July 3, 2000 – Arthur “J.R.” Warren was punched and kicked to death in Grant Town, West Virginia
    by two teenage boys who reportedly believed Warren had spread a rumor
    that he and one of the boys, David Allen Parker, had a sexual
    relationship. Warren’s killers ran over his body to disguise the murder
    as a hit-and-run. Parker pleaded guilty and was sentenced to “life in prison with mercy”, making him eligible for parole after 15 years.[46] His accomplice, Jared Wilson, was sentenced to 20 years.[47]

    September 22, 2000 – Ronald Gay entered a gay bar in Roanoke, Virginia and opened fire on the patrons, killing Danny Overstreet,
    43 years old, and severely injuring six others. Ronald said he was
    angry over what his name now meant, and deeply upset that three of his
    sons had changed their surname. He claimed that he had been told by God
    to find and kill lesbians and gay men, describing himself as a
    “Christian Soldier working for my Lord;” Gay testified in court that “he
    wished he could have killed more fags,” before several of the shooting
    victims as well as Danny Overstreet’s family and friends.[48]

    June 16, 2001 – Fred Martinez, a transgender and two-spirit student, was bludgeoned to death near Cortez, Colorado by 18-year-old Shaun Murphy, who reportedly bragged about attacking a “fag”.[49][50]

    June 12, 2002 – Philip Walsted, a gay man, was fatally beaten with a baseball bat. According to prosecutors, the neo-Nazi
    views of Walsted’s assailant’s, David Higdon, led to what was
    originally a robbery escalating to murder. Higdon was sentenced to life
    in prison, plus an additional sentence for robbery.[51]

    August 6, 2002 – Rodney Velasquez, a 26-year-old Latino gay man, was found murdered in the bathtub of his Bronx apartment.[52]

    October 3, 2002 – Gwen Araujo, a trans woman,
    was murdered by at least three men who were charged with committing a
    hate crime. Two were convicted of murder, the third manslaughter;
    however, the jury rejected the hate crime enhancement.

    December 24, 2002 – Nizah Morris, a 47-year-old black trans woman, was possibly murdered in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.[53]

    December 12, 2001 – Terrianne Summers, a 51-year-old trans
    woman and activist for transgender rights, was shot and killed in her
    front yard in Florida. No arrests were made and police did not
    investigate her murder as a hate crime.[54]
    Terriane’s high visibility as a trans woman due to her activist role
    has led her to be included in lists of anti LGBT hate crimes, although
    lack of police interest in her murder means the motives behind the
    killing may never be known.

    May 11, 2003 – Sakia Gunn, a black 15-year-old lesbian, was murdered in Newark, New Jersey.
    While waiting for a bus, Gunn and her friends were propositioned by two
    men. When the girls rejected their advances, declaring themselves to be
    lesbians, the men attacked them. One of the men, Richard McCullough,
    fatally stabbed Gunn. In exchange for his pleading guilty to several
    lesser crimes including aggravated manslaughter, prosecutors dropped
    murder charges against McCullough, who was sentenced to 20 years.[55][56]

    June 17, 2003 – Richie Phillips of Elizabethtown, Kentucky was killed by Joseph Cottrell. His body was later found in a suitcase in Rough River Lake.
    During his trial, two of Cottrell’s relatives testified that he lured
    Phillips to his death, and killed him because he was gay.[57] Cottrell was convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to 20 years in prison.[58]

    July 23, 2003 – Nireah Johnson and Brandie Coleman were shot to death by Paul Moore, when Moore learned after a sexual encounter that Johnson was transgender.[59] Moore then burned his victims’ bodies. He was convicted of murder and sentenced to 120 years in prison.[60]

    July 31, 2003 – 37-year-old Glenn Kopitske was shot and stabbed in the back by 17-year-old Gary Hirte, a straight-A student, star athlete and Eagle Scout,[61] in Winnebago County, Wisconsin. Prosecutors contended that Hirte murdered Kopitske to see if he could get away with it.[62]
    Hirte pleaded insanity, claiming he killed Kopitske in a murderous rage
    after a consensual sexual encounter with the victim, because he felt a
    homosexual act was “worse than murder”. The ‘temporary insanity’
    mitigation plea was not upheld, he was found guilty, and received a life sentence.

    August 2003 – Emonie Spaulding, a black 25-year-old trans
    woman, was shot to death in Washington, D.C. by Derrick Antwan Lewis
    after he discovered she was trans.[63]

    July 22, 2004 – 18-year-old Scotty Joe Weaver of Bay Minette, Alabama,
    was murdered. His burned and partially decomposed body was discovered a
    few miles from the mobile home in which he lived. He was beaten,
    strangled and stabbed numerous times, partially decapitated, and his
    body was doused in gasoline and set on fire.

    October 2, 2004 – Daniel Fetty, a gay man who was hearing-impaired and homeless was attacked by multiple assailants in Waverly, Ohio.
    Fetty was beaten, stomped, shoved nude into a garbage bin, impaled with
    a stick, and left for dead; he succumbed to his injuries the next day.
    Prosecuters alleged a hate crime. Three men received sentences ranging
    from seven years to life.[64]

    January 28, 2005 – Ronnie Antonio Paris, a three-year-old boy living in Tampa, Florida,
    died due to brain injuries inflicted by his father, Ronnie Paris, Jr.
    According to his mother and other relatives, Ronnie Paris, Jr.,
    repeatedly slammed his son into walls, slapped the child’s head, and “boxed” him because he was concerned the child was gay and would grow up a sissy. Paris was sentenced to thirty years in prison.[65][66]

    On February 27, 2005, in Santa Fe, New Mexico, 21-year-old James Maestas
    was assaulted outside a restaurant, then followed to a hotel and beaten
    unconscious by men who called him “faggot” during the attack. Although
    all of his attackers were charged with committing a hate crime, none was
    sentenced to prison.[67]

    March 11, 2005 – Jason Gage, an openly gay man, was murdered in his Waterloo, Iowa, apartment by an assailant, Joseph Lawrence, who claimed Gage had made sexual advance to him. Gage was bludgeoned to death with a bottle, and stabbed in the neck, probably post-mortem, with a shard of glass.[68] Lawrence was sentenced to fifty years in prison.

    October 25, 2005 – Emanuel Xavier,
    an openly gay poet and activist, was surrounded and brutally beaten by a
    group of fifteen to twenty teens on the streets of Bushwick which left
    him permanently deaf in his right ear.[69]

    February 2, 2006 – 18-year-old Jacob D. Robida entered a bar in New Bedford, Massachusetts, confirmed that it was a gay bar, and then attacked patrons with a hatchet and a handgun, wounding three.[70] He fatally shot himself three days later.[71]

    June 10, 2006 – Kevin Aviance, a female impressionist, musician, and fashion designer, was robbed and beaten in Manhattan by a group of men who yelled anti-gay slurs at him. Four assailants pleaded guilty and received prison sentences.[72]

    July 30, 2006 – Six men were attacked with baseball bats and knives after leaving the San Diego Gay Pride
    festival. One victim was injured so severely that he had to undergo
    extensive facial reconstructive surgery. Three men pleaded guilty in
    connection with the attacks and received prison sentences. A 15-year-old
    juvenile also pleaded guilty.[73][74]

    October 8, 2006 – Michael Sandy
    was attacked by four young heterosexual men who lured him into meeting
    after chatting online, while they were looking for gay men to rob. He
    was struck by a car while trying to escape his attackers, and died five
    days later without regaining consciousness.[75][76]

    February 27, 2007 – Andrew Anthos, a 72-year-old disabled gay man, was beaten with a lead pipe in Detroit, Michigan by a man who was shouting anti-gay names at him. Anthos died 10 days later in the hospital.[77]

    March 15, 2007 – Ryan Keith Skipper, a 25-year-old gay man was stabbed to death in Wahneta, Florida. Four suspects were arrested for the crime. The Sheriff is calling it a hate crime.[78]

    March 16, 2007 – Ruby Ordeñana, a 24-year-old Latina transgender woman, was found naked and strangled to death in San Francisco, CA at 5:40 am.[79][80]
    Donzell Francis, who was suspected of raping and strangling Ordeñana,
    was convicted on December 23, 2009 and sentenced to 17 years and 18
    months in prison for forcible oral copulation, robbery, assault causing
    great bodily injury, and false imprisonment of another transgender
    woman.[81]

    May 12, 2007 – Roberto Duncanson was murdered in Brooklyn, New York. He was stabbed to death by Omar Willock, who claimed Duncanson had flirted with him.[82]

    May 16, 2007 – Sean William Kennedy, 20, was walking to his car from Brew’s Bar in Greenville, SC
    when Stephen Andrew Moller, 18, got out of another car and approached
    Kennedy. Investigators said that Moller made a comment about Kennedy’s
    sexual orientation, and threw a fatal punch because he didn’t like the
    other man’s sexual preference.[83]

    October 2007 – Steven Domer, a 62-year-old gay man, was murdered in Oklahoma.[84]

    December 8, 2007 – 25-year-old gay man Nathaniel Salerno was attacked by four men on a Metro train in Washington, DC. The men called him “faggot” while they beat him.[85]

    January 8, 2008 – Stacey Brown, a black 30-year-old trans woman, was found dead in her apartment. She had been shot in the head.[86]

    July 1, 2008 – Ebony Whitaker, an African American trans woman, was shot and killed in Memphis.[87]

    February 2008 – Duanna Johnson, a trans woman, was beaten by a
    police officer while she was held in the Shelby County Criminal Justice
    Center in Tennessee. Johnson said the officers reportedly called her a
    “faggot” and “he-she,” before and during the incident.[88] In November 2008, she was found dead in the street, reportedly gunned down by three unknown individuals.[89]

    February 4, 2008 – Ashley Sweeney, a trans woman, was shot in the head. Her body was found in Detroit, Michigan.[90]

    February 10, 2008 – Sanesha Stewart, a 25-year-old black trans woman was stabbed to death in Bronx, New York.[91]

    February 12, 2008 – Lawrence “Larry” King, a 15-year-old junior highschool student was shot twice by a classmate at E.O. Green School in Oxnard, California. He was taken off life support after doctors declared him brain dead on February 15.[92] According to Associated Press reports, “prosecutors have charged a 14-year-old classmate with premeditated murder with hate-crime and firearm-use enhancements”.[93][94][95]

    February 22, 2008 – Simmie Williams Jr. was a black gender-nonconforming 17-year-old, who was shot dead on a street corner in Broward County, Florida.[96]

    March 16, 2008 – Police say Lance Neve was beaten unconscious in Rochester, New York
    because Neve was gay. A man attacked Neve at a bar leaving him with a
    fractured skull, and a broken nose. Jesse Parsons was sentenced to more
    than five years in prison for the assault.

    May 29, 2008 – Eighteen-year-old Steven Parrish, a member of the 92 Family Swans subgroup of the Bloods, was murdered by Steven T. Hollis III and Juan L. Flythe on orders from gang leader Timothy Rawlings Jr., in Baltimore County, Maryland
    after they found “gay messages” on his cell phone. The felt having a
    gay member would make their gang appear weak. Hollis III pleaded guilty
    and was sentenced to life in prison; Flythe was given a life sentence
    with all but 30 years suspended; and Rawlings was sentenced to life in
    prison without the possibility of parole. A fourth man, Benedict Wureh,
    pleaded guilty to being an accessory after the fact and was sentenced to time served, about 17 months.[97]

    June 9, 2008 – Jeremy Waggoner, an openly gay hairstylist from Royal Oak, Michigan, was brutally murdered in Detroit. His murder is still unsolved.[98]

    July 17, 2008 – Eighteen-year-old Angie Zapata,
    a trans woman, was beaten to death in Colorado two days after meeting
    Allen Ray Andrade. The case was prosecuted as a hate crime, and Andrade
    was found guilty of first degree murder on April 22, 2009.[99]

    August 20, 2008 – Nahkia Williams, a black trans woman, was shot to death in Louisville, Kentucky. Damon Malone was charged with her murder, robbery, and burglary, and sentenced to 35 years in prison.[100]

    September 7, 2008 – Tony Randolph Hunter, 27, and his partner were attacked and beaten near a gay bar in Washington, D.C. Hunter later died from his injuries on September 18. Police are investigating it as a possible hate crime.[101]

    September 13, 2008 – 26-year-old Nima Daivari was attacked in Denver, Colorado by a man who called him “faggot”. The police that arrived on the scene refused to make a report of the attack.[102]

    September 21, 2008 – 22-year-old trans woman Ruby Molina’s nude body was found facedown on the bank of a river in isolated and undeveloped area in Sacramento, California.[103]

    November 7, 2008 – The home of openly gay Melvin Whistlehunt in Newton, North Carolina was destroyed by arsonists. Investigators found homophobic graffiti spray-painted on the back of the house.[104]

    November 14, 2008 – 22-year-old Lateisha Green, a trans woman, was shot and killed by Dwight DeLee in Syracuse, NY because he thought she was gay.[105] Local news media reported the incident with her legal name, Moses “Teish” Cannon.[106]
    DeLee was convicted of first-degree manslaughter as a hate crime on
    July 17, 2009, and received the maximum sentence of 25 years in state
    prison. This was only the second time in the nation’s history that a
    person was prosecuted for a hate crime against a transgender person and
    the first hate crime conviction in New York state.[107][108][109]

    December 12, 2008 – A 28-year-old lesbian in Richmond, California was kidnapped and gang raped by four men who made homophobic remarks during the attack.[110]

    December 26, 2008 – Taysia Elzy, a 34-year-old trans woman, and her partner, 22-year-old Michael Hunt, were shot to death and left for dead in their apartment by 20-year-old Chris Conwell.[111]

    December 27, 2008 – 24-year-old Nathan Runkle was brutally assaulted in Dayton, Ohio outside a gay nightclub.[112]

    January 17, 2009 – Caprice Curry, a 31-year-old trans woman in San Francisco, California, was stabbed to death.[113]

    February 15, 2009 – Efosa Agbontaen and Branden McGillvery-Dummett
    were attacked in New York City by four young men with glass bottles and
    box cutters who used anti-gay slurs during the attack. Agbontaen and
    McGillvery-Dummett both required emergency room treatment for their
    injuries.[114]

    February 18, 2009 – Two men were arrested in Stroudsburg, PA for the stabbing death of gay veteran Michael Goucher.[115]

    March 1, 2009 – Three men entered a bar in Galveston, Texas and attacked patrons with rocks. One of the victims, Marc Bosaw, was sent to the emergency room to have twelve staples in his head.

    March 14, 2009 – A gay couple leaving a Britney Spears concert in Newark, New Jersey were attacked by 15 teens. Josh Kehoe and Bobby Daniel Caldwell were called “faggots” and beaten. Caldwell suffered a broken jaw.[116]

    March 23, 2009 – Two gay men were attacked in Seaside, Oregon and left lying unconscious on a local beach. The men regained consciousness and were treated at a nearby hospital.[117]

    April 6, 2009 – Carl Joseph Walker-Hoover, an 11-year-old child in Springfield, Massachusetts, hanged himself with an extension cord after being bullied all school year by peers who said “he acted feminine” and was gay.[118]

    Justin Goodwin, 36, of Salem, Massachusetts was attacked and beaten on April 10, 2009, by as many as six people outside a bar in Gloucester, Massachusetts. Goodwin suffered a shattered jaw, broken eye socket, broken nose and broken cheekbone. Goodwin later committed suicide.[119]
    Brothers Jonathan and William Chadwick, both of Gloucester, Mass., and
    John Curley-Brotman of Boston, Mass. pleaded guilty to charges of
    assault and battery with a dangerous weapon. The assault was not
    considered a hate crime by authorities despite pressure from the Goodwin
    family to declare it so. On June 23, 2010 the Chadwick brothers were
    each sentenced to four years in state prison, and Curley-Brotman was
    sentenced to two years in the county jail of Middleton, Mass.[120]

    June 18, 2009 – Patti Hammond Shaw, an African-American trans woman, turned herself into a police station in Washington, D.C.
    after receiving a letter saying there was a warrant for her arrest on
    charges of making a false police report. Despite producing documents
    supporting her right to be housed with other women, she was placed in a
    men’s facility. According to her suit, officers “groped her breasts,
    buttocks and between her legs repeatedly and excessively”. She is now
    suing Washington D.C. Metropolitan Police Department and the U.S.
    Marshals service for the treatment she received.[121]

    June 30, 2009 – Seaman August Provost was found shot to death and his body burned at his guard post on Camp Pendleton. LGBT community leaders “citing military sources initially said that Provost’s death was a hate crime.”[122] Provost had been harassed because of his sexual orientation.[122] Military leaders have since explained that “whatever the investigation concludes, the military’s “Don’t ask, don’t tell” policy prevented Provost from seeking help.”[122] Family and friends believe he was murdered because he was openly gay (or bisexual according to some family and sources);[123][124][125][126][127] the killer committed suicide a week later after admitting the murder, the Navy have not concluded if this was a hate crime.[128]

    October 25, 2009 – Dee Green, a trans woman, was found by
    police unconscious, stabbed in the heart, and bleeding on a street in
    Baltimore, Maryland. She was taken to a hospital where she died half an
    hour later. Larry Douglas was charged with first-degree murder in April
    2010.[129]

    November 2009 – Jason Mattison Jr., an openly gay 15-year-old
    boy, was violently murdered and raped at his aunt’s house by
    35-year-old Dante Parrish, a family friend who had been in prison for
    murder previously.[130]
    Parrish was convicted for Mattison’s murder and in April 2012 was
    sentenced to life without parole (the conviction included a second life
    term for attempted sexual assault).[131]

    December 9, 2009 – Mariah Malina Qualls’ body was found in a San Francisco hotel.[132]
    She was a 23-year-old transgender woman who volunteered and was a
    member of the Asian & Pacific Islander Wellness Center’s
    TRANS:THRIVE community.”

  • lol…..then prove it to me instead of making comments a sunday school child would be ashamed of. Show me you know Christ.

  • Not true
    Homosexuals Anonymous
    Ex-LGBT for Jesus Christ
    Restored Hope Network
    You really need to keep up with things Jerry.

  • If more people in the US followed Jesus, there would be more people going to Heaven. Are you still trying to take people to their deaths, Jerry?

  • You obviously don’t know Jesus. Christ is the Word. The Bible came through Him. He taught every admonition against homosexuality in the Old and New Testament.

    Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

    Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

  • Your own words back at you “so all you can offer are excuses and insults instead of scripture?”

    As you sin against me, you prove that Christ is not part of your life. You and your peers, with your evil belief, promote violence against GLBTQ people. On this very board, you called for us, seven hundred million human beings – twice the population of the U.S. to be killed as human sacrifices to your false god. And because of that evil belief – real humans are brutalize and murdered.

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/06/16/us/hate-crimes-against-lgbt.html
    “L.G.B.T. people are twice as likely to be targeted as African-Americans,
    and the rate of hate crimes against them has surpassed that of crimes
    against Jews.”

    “Last summer, less than two months after the United States Supreme Court ruled in favor of same-sex marriage, a New York City man was arrested and charged with a hate crime for attacking Larry and Daniel Lennox-Choate, the first gay couple to be married at West Point Military Academy.”

    “A few months later in Palm Springs, Calif., a gay married couple, George and Chris Zander,
    who were also L.G.B.T. leaders in their community, were assaulted outside a local nightclub. Palm Springs officials said they believed it was the second crime there that year that targeted L.G.B.T. people.

    In March of this year, Elliot Morales was convicted of murder as a hate crime for killing Mark Carson, a gay black man, in Manhattan three years earlier. Mr. Morales had shouted anti-gay slurs at Mr. Carson and his companion before shooting him.”

    George Zander was a friend to many of my friends, though I did not know him directly, and he died later, the trauma of his wounds – he was 71 years old. Think about that, sandi. Because of you and your peers, a 71 year old man was badly beaten, hospitalized, and died, the stress of the attack being too much for him.

    Because of you.

    Because of your evil belief.

  • homosexuality is a sin, Daniel. Women are allowed to teach men except in a church setting.

  • “Your own words back at you “so all you can offer are excuses and insults instead of scripture?””

    My words indicate no such thing, sandi. But you and your peers produce evil fruit, on purpose, without a shred of remorse or decency.
    https://76crimes.com/100s-die-in-homophobic-anti-gay-attacks-statistics-updates/

    “The pace of hate-crime murders and executions of LGBTI people can be overwhelming.

    The numbers are so large that this blog’s list of reported homophobic
    hate-crime killings of LGBTI people can never be a comprehensive list.
    The list is just a sad sampling of the horrors that keep happening
    worldwide.

    The list started with the murder of this blog’s journalist/activist
    Eric Lembembe of Cameroon, whose body was found July 15, 2013.

    Worldwide, hate crimes against LGBTI people are a massive problem:

    Transgender Europe’s Trans Murder Monitoring project
    reported that at least 1,700 transgender and gender-expansive people
    have been killed since 2008 in Central and South America. It cited 295 reported killings of trans and gender-diverse people between Oct. 1, 2015, and Sept. 1, 2016.

    The Inter-American Commission on Human Rights documented 770 killings and seriously violent attacks against LGBT persons between Jan. 1, 2013, and March 31, 2014, including 594 hate-related killings of LGBTI people in Brazil.

    In the United States, out of the almost 6,000 hate crimes committed
    in 2013, 20 percent (approximately 1,200) were based on victims’ sexual
    orientation, according to the FBI.

    In Brazil, 1,341 LGBT people were reported murdered from 2007 through 2012.

    In Peru, a reported 249 LGBT people were murdered from 2006 to 2010.

    Admittedly it’s impossible to know exactly how many of these murders
    were hate crimes. An unknown number were murdered for common individual
    motives, such as LGBTI people killed by jealous lovers or in robberies
    gone bad, rather than out of hatred of LGBTI people in general.

    It has proven to be a daunting task just to list some of the victims
    of homophobic murders, because so many occur worldwide. [The following
    list, begun after the July 2013 murder of Eric Lembembe in Cameroon, was
    suspended during 2014 for lack of volunteers. “

  • Paul is very clear when he speaks for himself. Otherwise, I would say that you are wrong.

  • Sandi, I’ve addressed this passages before. Your post is monstrously evil, you are calling for the slaughter of seven hundred million people as human sacrifices to your evil false god – your ego.

    And you are bound now to all of the Levitical Law. There is no salvation for you, for you have rejected Christ and bound yourself for judgement to laws you can never, ever keep.

  • You are wrong, and you are not with Christ on this, and Jesus did not teach that homosexuality is a sin.

    You are lying about Jesus, and God.

  • Your own words back at you “so all you can offer are excuses and insults instead of scripture?”

    Your false accusations are sin, sandi. You are not trying to help, you want to murder seven hundred million human beings as blood offerings to your false god, your ego.

    That is not helping, that is evil.

    “. Homosexuality is a sin and the result, like all sin, is the second death.”

    Again, your black magic is sin. It simply shows how much you hate God.

  • Christ taught that homosexuality is a sin. You can split hairs all the way to hades Daniel. But, if one does not repent of their sin, Jesus will give you every chance to because He loves you, but, if you do not repent of your sin, hon, you will not see Heaven.
    Romans 6:23 – English Standard Version

    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

  • And you are an extreme example of an unrepentant sinner, someone so conceited, you want to murder seven hundred million people, just to please your false god.

    Jesus said that if you sin in your thoughts – by looking at a woman lustfully for example, you sin as much as if you’d done so in the flesh.

    You are a mass murderer. Every time you post Leviticus 20:13 – you commit hundreds of millions of counts of murder in your thoughts and in your word.

    Yet, though you presume to be qualified to judge GLBTQ, you clearly lack the moral sense necessary to recognize that murder is wrong. You clearly do not see that human sacrifice to idols – which you are committing in thought and word – is wrong.

    By your own words – which are heresy anyways and contradict Christ – you are not a Christian.

  • No, sandi, spamming the board with these passages over and over again, letting us all see how very much you hunger for the blood of GLBTQ people.

    You are publicly calling for seven hundred million people to be killed for your false god. That is monstrously evil.

    Your conceited desire to be seen as ‘right’ is so strong, sandi, that you’ve repeatedly threatened the lives of millions of human beings, demonstrating a level of unspeakable evil.

  • You are offering death. Christ came that we may have life, and life more abundantly. Repent and believe.

  • You can post all that you want, some of it may be sad, but, it still will not change that homosexuality is a sin that sends people to Hell. Repent and be saved, Mark. Quit hurting people.

  • you’ve already said that Mark….time for some new manipulation, and it still will not get you, or anyone else into Heaven. Christ is the only way. He said He would forgive your sin and heal you of it. You just need to repent and be saved.

  • Christ loves you Mark. All of the insults you can concoct only blesses me more, because I tell the truth. God bless you also Mark.

  • No anger, just you telling lies again. You cannot help anyone, sandi, what a conceited and arrogant offer. No, you offer death, you have repeatedly called for seven hundred million humans to be slaughtered for the sake of your ego.

    I realize you won’t give a damn, but others here can read the harm your sick belief causes people – in the personal testimony of GLBTQ brutalize because of the evil belief you spew here:

    bt.foundation/information-advice/hate-crime/personal-stories/

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/06/orlando-nightclub-shooting-lgbt-gay-hate-crimes-history/

    “Harvey Milk in 1978. Brandon Teena in 1993. Matthew Shepard in 1998.

    The list of well-publicized murders of gay, lesbian, bisexual and
    transgender people now includes victims of the worst mass shooting in
    U.S. history, which saw 49 people gunned down this weekend at a gay
    nightclub in Orlando, Florida.

    Though clearly widespread, and far from confined to recent decades,
    violent attacks rooted in gender or sexuality are difficult to quantify.
    “In most countries, the absence of effective systems for recording and
    reporting hate-motivated violence, or ‘hate crimes,’ against LGBT
    persons masks the true extent of violence,” noted a United Nations report last year. “Where they exist, official statistics tend to understate the number of incidents.”

    More than 20 percent of U.S. hate crimes in 2014 (the most recent
    year available) targeted people because of sexual orientation or gender,
    according to FBI statistics cited by the activist group Human Rights Campaign.
    And while countless people have been the victims of individual attacks,
    large groups at nightclubs and other settings worldwide have also been subject to violence.”

    By the way, the Orlando shooting – that is on you and your peers – because you and homophobic Muslims share the same depraved belief. And the shooter, he lived in the U.S. for years, which means the loudest voice of anti-gay belief was people like you – fake Christians.

    “The motivations behind attacks against LGBT
    people “have always been, and continue to be, [about] seemingly
    religious rhetoric,” says says Kaila Story, a professor of women’s and gender studies at University of Louisville.”

    “Gay Pride Parade, Jerusalem, 2015: An ultra-Orthodox Jewish man stabbed six people, killing one, 10 years after attacking participants in the same parade in 2005.

    Central Station, Moscow 2014: The Central Station, a large gay nightclub, was forced to close after a string of attacks, including being sprayed with bullets and gassed. It has since reopened in a new location that has bulletproof glass.

    DIY Club, Yerevan, Armenia, 2012: The gay-friendly bar was firebombed and spray-painted with swastikas in the same month. “I continue to get threats saying they will burn, kill me and so on,” owner Armine Oganezova told the Institute for War & Peace Reporting at the time.

    Backstreet Cafe, Roanoke, Virginia, 2000: A man opened fire at the bar, killing one man and wounding six others. The gunman told police he was on a mission to kill gay people.”

    It is your fault, sandi. It is the fault of you, your peers regardless of their religion or denomination. On this very board, you called for GLBTQ people to be killed, you claim your gof demands it.

    And clearly, you lack the morals or the compassion to realize how much evil you did just by posting Lev. 20:13 to incite murder.

  • I showed you the scripture where He declared it sin. He also died for you if you choose to accept His gift and leave your pity party. Your choice.

  • For every ex-gay – there are hundreds of ex-ex-gays and people for whom none of it ever worked.

    ” Some may also help you to develop a relationship with Jesus that isn’t based on defying His word.”

    Oh mass murderer in thought and word – for you are one, citing Lev 20:13 to call for the deaths of hundreds of millions of people makes you a mass murderer – I have a deep relationship with Jesus, based not only on following His word, but on a persistent relationship with the Holy Spirit.

    Your personal attacks on me are simply more of the evil fruit produced by the sick belief ‘homosexuality is sin’. Each one is an act of unrepentant sin on your part, and by your own words, heretical as they were, they prove that you are not, even in your own mind, a Christian.

  • Your trite and empty replies only prove that you are incompetent, sandi.

    Yes, I’m replying backwards from your most recent to the oldest, but you posted a depraved death threat against hundreds of millions of people, several times.

    Homosexuality is not a sin, but your depraved theology absolutely is.

  • ” of the lamb”

    Well, you cannot be talking about Christ, or you’d have capitalized the word Lamb. So, sandi, where did you get the poor baby sheep you slaughtered so you could bathe in its blood?

  • “You have made no sound posts to refute.”

    Yet reality proves you wrong. Your dismissal is not only sin, it screams to everyone about your toxic mix of incompetence and conceit.

    “Homosexuality is a sin”

    Nope. But calling for seven hundred million people to be killed as sacrifices to your false god – that is sin. You committed it.

  • I did not say you said it, sandi who lies constantly.

    You are accused of telling lies about GLBTQ people, you respond with a
    passage that is about God, creating the clear impression that you think
    you are God.

    You are not God, but you try to be God. So much so, that you call for seven hundred million humans to be sacrifices to your ego, when you cited Lev 20:13.

  • Not at all, but keep trying. Thank you again for the blessings.
    Matthew 5:11“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”
    Jesus died for your sins so you don’t need to Mark. Turn to Him and be saved.

  • All you have are empty insults, sandi who longs for the death of seven hundred million human beings – as you showed by repeatedly citing Lev 20:13 and claiming it is about homosexuals.

  • “No, I’ve proven that you are.”

    Nice delusion and slander. As a slanderer, as well as a mass murderer in thought and word, you are barred, by your own hands, from the kingdom of Heaven.

    Your presumption that I don’t know Christ is simply your sinful pride taking over your keyboard. It is further sin on your part.

  • I’ve shared what Christ has said; that’s all. You’re the one who boasts that you know the Bible better than me, yet, you don’t know that Christ died for those people should they renounce their sin and turn to Him for forgiveness.

  • By the way, it is simply sick beyond excuse that you exploit the religious violence that some Muslims inflict on GLBTQ people, as you call for the execution of all GLBTQ people, some seven hundred million people, twice the population of the U.S. – as sacrifices to your ego.

    You and the conservative Muslims who condemn homosexuality – are no different. What ever criticism you have of them – falls on you as well.

  • Prove that I don’t know it better than you, mass murderer in thought and word.

    That is what you proved yourself to be, when you cited Lev 20:13 and claimed (falsely) that it was about homosexuals.

    You committed murder, seven hundred million counts of murder, each time you cited that passage. And I’ve pointed that out to you – but do you repent? Do you acknowledge that what you did was evil?

    No.

    You slander me instead.

  • Sandi, liar, I’ve provided far more Scripture to refute you, than you have provided. Your insinuation that I have provided no Scripture – is damning sin.

    By your own heretical claim, you are not a Christian, because you are an unrepentant sinner.

  • There was no blessing, sandi. I suggest that you not give advice you’ve never lived.

    I hope you realize that every time you lie about what I’ve posted, you tell everyone else that you are completely and irrevocably dishonest. You teach them not to believe you, and frankly, you teach them not to believe the Bible. You and your peers teach the world that God is evil, cruel, despicable, unjust, and that his followers are blood-thirsty villains hungering to slaughter millions of people.

  • You don’t tell the truth about the Bible, you don’t tell the truth about homosexuality, and frankly, you’ve nothing but insults GLBTQ people, and me, over and over and over again.

    You have repeatedly called for seven hundred million humans to be slaughtered. That is evil.

  • Your false accusations against me are sin, but then, for a mass murderer like you, what’s a little slander.

    You keep proclaiming things about Jesus, as if I don’t know them, when you clearly don’t believe them yourself. Heck, by your own heretical claim, you cannot be a Christian, for you most certainly are an unrepentant sinner.

  • I’m not the mass murderer whose entrance into Heaven is in doubt, sandi. you are.

    And look how cowardly your posts are. Afraid to even attempt to address your own deep and disgusting sin. All you can do is deflect because if you actually looked at your sins here, they convict even you.

    “Repent and be saved”

    That is advice you need to tell yourself, and live.

  • “, it still will not change that homosexuality is a sin that sends people to Hell”
    Actually, sandi the mass murderer in thought and word, all that violence proves to those who love and respect Jesus, that you are wrong.

    15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    Matthew 7:15-23

    How are we to recognize right teaching, right teachers? Jesus’ answer is simple: by their fruit.

    False teachers, like you sandi, produce evil fruit. The depraved belief, your call to murder seven hundred million human beings, produces evil fruit. What you dismiss as ‘some of it may be sad’ – is concrete proof that your belief is evil. All that violence produced by ‘homosexuality is sin’ – is evil fruit, and it shows decent people

    people who actually love God

    that you and your peers are false teachers.

    And Jesus is clear, is doesn’t matter what show of faith you make, as a false teacher, Christ will say to you “I know you not” – if you do not repent.

    “Quit hurting people.”

    That is, again, advice that you need to live. After all, you called for me, and hundreds of millions of other people, to be killed, slaughtered, stretched out on the altar of your ego, murdered as human sacrifices to your false god, ego – you did that each time you cited Lev 20:13 and claimed it was about homosexuality.

    Homosexuality is not a sin, but according to Jesus’ own test, every person who claims that it is, is a false teacher.

  • “Not at all, but keep trying. Thank you again for the blessings.”

    You are not being blessed. You are being rebuked for your incredible and disgusting sin.

    ” Turn to Him and be saved.”

    Take your own advice, sandi who calls for millions to be murdered.

  • Oh sandi, your dismissals are pathetic and sinful. I’ve already demonstrated a deeper study of the Bible than you possess.

    You want to murder us, every time I rebuke you I am helping GLBTQ people.

  • Well, sandi, run away. But keep in mind, you cannot come back. To do so would only expose how dishonest you are.

    Running away is typical of unrepentant sinners, it is really Christ you are running away from, not me.

  • “I’ve shared what Christ has said;”

    Nice lie.

    ” You’re the one who boasts that you know the Bible better than me, yet,
    you don’t know that Christ died for those people should they renounce
    their sin and turn to Him for forgiveness.”

    Every lie about me that you tell, and you have told a vast number of them, is sin.

  • Your fantasies about me, sandi, demonstrate a desperate need to save your ego and pride as well as the painfully obvious inability to actually refute what I have posted.

    You claim I show a lack of knowledge about Christianity – and yet, sandi – I have not only replied from Christ’s teachings to refute your claims, I’ve stumped you so badly that you cannot even provide Scripture to refute what I have posted.

  • Oh sandi, mass murderer, the only one have a temper tantrum here is you.

    ” Homosexuality is a sin.”

    No, it is not. Your satanic spell doesn’t work.

  • While you are sinning with your faux concern. After all, world-wide 95% of all cases of HIV have been, are in, people who identify as heterosexual.

  • Your dismissal demonstrates a deep moral failing. I’ve pointed out the deep and terrible harm your sick belief ‘homosexuality is sin’ produces in the world,

    but when all is said and done, and you run away, all you have is laughter at the harm you cause.

    Sadism, sandi, is not a Christian virtue. You should pray to God that God heal you of it.

  • Good for you, Christopher Curzon. Ben has apparently lost that particular perspective, long time ago. But maybe hearing it from you, well…

  • But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust (desire).
    Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. (James 1:14-15)

    Your SSA feelings are NOT some sort of neutral natural aspect. They are **temptation** to sin, not a fake, clinical-sounding, immutable-sounding “orientation.” If those feelings are acted upon, then it’s sin according to 1 Cor 6:9-11.

  • Laughing at people dying from your harmful promotion of discredited practices. You sick psychopath. Answer the question.

  • Your difficulty is with the truth, Mark. Homosexuality has always been a sin. Having a tantrum. Posting reams of things…none of that is going to change it. The person needs to change, and to turn to Christ. That is the only way.

  • And again, Mark, calling me names will not change anything. Homosexuality is a sin. That will never change. Jesus will help you, but you need to submit to Him.

  • 1 Corinthians 7: 2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband.

  • And again, homosexuality is still a sin. Christ said that He would forgive and heal us of our sin,but we need to repent.

  • Homosexuality is a sin that Christ said He will forgive and cleanse one of, if they repent.

  • Homosexuality is and has always been a sin. Your tantrum tonight has not changed a thing. God bless you Mark.

  • No. Mark. It’s the result of a fallen world. You need to help people find Jesus, not turn away from him. God bless you.

  • Well, your sick and abusive theology ‘homosexuality is sin’ is indeed the result of a fallen world – your world.

    You are explicitly rejecting Jesus’ own teaching. The cause and effect relationship between the violence you preach – after all, you called for us to be killed – and the violence your teaching produces means you are a false teacher.

    “God bless you.”

    Taking God’s name in vain, as you have just done, is sin.

  • “7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.” Exodus 20.

    You’re “God bless you Mark” as a substitute for acknowledging your sins, is itself sin.

  • “Homosexuality is and has always been a sin.”

    Nope, never has, is not, cannot be.

    “Your tantrum tonight has not changed a thing.”

    Your false accusation is sin. Please repent.

    You have made it clear that you want seven hundred million people to be killed as sacrifices to your false god. Now that it a tantrum of epic proportions.

  • You lied about yourself.

    I, sandi the mass murderer, became a Christian 54 years ago, and several months.

    You didn’t answer my question. I will now include it frequently, perhaps every time, I respond to you, until you tell us where did you get the poor baby sheep you slaughtered so you could bathe in its blood?

  • I already have, sandi. Your pretense that I have not, is sin. Please repent, so you can become a Christian (according to your heresy, not Christ’s teachings).

  • No blessings for you, just rebuke.

    But until you repent of yours, according to you own words, you do not and cannot follow Jesus.

  • Your sin list grows with every post.

    In multiple posts, sandi. Pretending I have not posted Scripture is simply sin on your part.

    Please repent. Come to Christ, ask him to forgive you for wanting to murder millions of people for the sake of your ego.

  • Nice hypocritical spam, sandi. Where is your repentance for lying about me, and for threatening the lives of hundreds of millions of people?

    Have you any morals at all?

    And where did you get the poor baby sheep you slaughtered so you could bathe in its blood?

  • Homosexuality is not a sin, murdering people, even in thought and word as you have done here over and over again, is sin.
    Where did you get the poor baby sheep you slaughtered so you could bathe in its blood?

    If you were a real Christian, sandi, you would turn yourself over to the police and confess to animal abuse.

  • And again, it is not sin. It cannot be. You are practicing black magic:

    Wisdom 17:7

    The delusions of their magic art lay humbled, and their boasted wisdom was scornfully rebuked.

    Deuteronomy 18: 9-13

    9 When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you must not learn to imitate the abhorrent practices of those nations. 10 No
    one shall be found among you who makes a son or daughter pass through
    fire, or who practices divination, or is a soothsayer, or an augur, or a
    sorcerer, 11 or one who casts spells, or who consults ghosts or spirits, or who seeks oracles from the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is abhorrent to the Lord; it is because of such abhorrent practices that the Lord your God is driving them out before you. 13 You must remain completely loyal to the Lord your God. 14 Although these nations that you are about to dispossess do give heed to soothsayers and diviners, as for you, the Lord your God does not permit you to do so.

    You are attempting to cast spells, with your repeated “homosexuality is sin” heresy – and that means you are abhorrent to the Lord.

  • Nice reversal of reality.

    The truth is that you and your peers torture and brutalize GLBTQ people – for the sake of your own ego. That is monstrously evil.

    And because Jesus identifies with the oppressed, in Matthew 25, the parable of the sheep and the goats – as you demonize and brutalize GLBTQ people, you do it to Jesus.

    Where did you get the poor baby sheep you slaughtered so you could bathe in its blood?

    How terrible – a “goat” that confessed to bathing in the blood of a lamb.

  • Oh I’m so glad you mentioned Levicitus!!!! There’s also

    “Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.” Lev 19:29

    So, in the story of Lot and Sodom, the men of the city are guilty of violating Lev 18:22, and 20:13, in your reading.

    Now would you please describe to me how Lot is NOT guilty of violating Lev 19:29??

    I see three possible answers:
    1) Offering his daughters *for sex* is not really prostitution according to Leviticus.
    2) Or it really IS prostitution but God calls Lot righteous anyway for some other mysterious reason;
    3) Or, perhaps the passage is NOT describing SEX.

    What do you think, Sandi?

  • All the men of the city, young and old, wanted “intimate sex” with the angelic visitors??? Really?????? Intimate??????????

    If you see sex in the passage, then gang rape would be more like it, but definitely not intimate in the way that Adam was intimate with Eve when she conceive Cain, Abel and Seth. (Genesis 4:1, 17, 25)

    No. No. No.

  • Raping passages out of context shows that you hate God.
    “Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is well for a man not to touch a woman.” 2 But because of cases of sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For
    the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband
    does; likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body,
    but the wife does. 5 Do
    not deprive one another except perhaps by agreement for a set time, to
    devote yourselves to prayer, and then come together again, so that Satan
    may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 This I say by way of concession, not of command. 7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has a particular gift from God, one having one kind and another a different kind.”

    Ist Corinthians 7: 1-7

    So sandi, having raped the Bible again, notice the sentence you left out “It is well for a man not to touch a woman.” That is praise for gay men, we don’t touch women, especially sexually. Too bad trump never read that passage.

    But it is the last verse that convicts you as a terrible and wicked, unrepentant reprobate sinner:
    “But each has a particular gift from God, one having one kind and another a different kind.””

    You see, homosexuality is the particular gift of sexual expression God gives to some people – the people you want killed, the people you want to sacrifice to your idol. Paul respects that, you want to kill us all for it.

    That is monstrously evil. No wonder you resort to attempting black magic.

  • I don’t have to change it, mass murderer, because homosexuality is not a sin, has never been, and cannot be.

    But you have sinned, you have committed mass murder in thought and word, and look at your posts – no remorse, no repentance, no acknowledgement of your tremendous evil.

    No wonder that Paul uses such harsh words to describe people like you, idolaters who use sex to coerce religious belief:

    28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done. 29 They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters,[f] insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 They know God’s decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die—yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them. Romans 1

    That is you up there in Paul’s words, and your peer Fred Phelps, and Jerry Falwell, and Pat Robertson, and every person who ever beat, raped, murdered, tortures, harassed, bullied, brutalized someone for being, or seeming to be, gay, lesbian, bi, trans.

  • Your heartlessness is duly noted.

    Oh a truly sadistic person would laugh at the systemic evil you and your peers produce.

  • No, it is not.

    And you and I both know you cannot back that up with anything. After all, mass murderer in thought and word, I refuted your interpretation of the ‘gotcha verses’ – the passages that sadists use to claim that homosexuality is sin – and all you’ve done since is issue empty retorts and lies.

  • And yet, in his Brain Blogger article of 05-14-15, “Homosexuality in the Brain”, Dr. Viatcheslav Wlassoff is very careful to say:

    “…(At) present time we cannot say what makes people gay.”

    “Scientists still do not negate the role of environmental factors.”

    So changes and choices are still possible. You don’t HAVE to be gay if you don’t wanna be.

  • Hi Mark1115. I’m with you on the false interpretation of Lev 20:13 thing. And I know that has cause grievous harm to many LGBT people lately and through the centuries. But heaping seven hundred millions counts of murder onto Sandi gets nowhere, in my opinion. She believes falsely, but don’t we all have a false belief somewhere, here or there? That doesn’t really make us guilty of murder. Sure we all need to learn, but upping the emotional stakes that high probably won’t help. Just my opinion. Peace to you.

  • Where did you get the poor baby sheep you slaughtered so you could bathe in its blood?

    If you were a real Christian, sandi, you would turn yourself over to the police and confess to animal abuse.

    You won’t accomplish a thing with such sinful dismissals. They only prove to me, and any intelligent and honest person, that you absolutely know you cannot refute what I have presented.

    So you hope to goad me into something that will make me go away.

    But you have threatened the lives of hundreds of millions of people – It is my duty as a Christian to call you to repent of that terrible sin against me, my family and friends, people I church with and work with, and hundreds of millions of other people – no matter long it takes.

    When, oh when, will you repent of your sins against God, GLBTQ people, and humanity?

  • No, that’s wrong Jim. Even Masters and Johnson, way back when, said that it was possible for “highly motivated” individuals to experience sexual orientation change. (And that’s without invoking even one sentence of Scripture!)

  • “nd again, Mark, calling me names will not change anything.”

    I have not called you names, sandi, falsely accusing me is sin. Saying that you are a mass murderer in thought and word is no more name-calling than saying you are a mammal is name-calling.

    I have correctly identified by one of your defining traits – mass murderer in thought and word.

    “Homosexuality is a sin.”

    And yet, it is not. But murder, which you committed in thought and word, sandi, is sin. Which you apparently will not repent of.

    Let me be blunt: In the name of Jesus Christ, Sandi Luckins, I charge with the sin of mass murder in thought and word, though your false judgement against gay men using Leviticus 20:13 – will you, or will you not, repent of this grievous and damning sin?

  • “Your difficulty is with the truth,”

    Nice projection. Where did you get the poor baby sheep you slaughtered so you could bathe in its blood?

    “Homosexuality has always been a sin.”

    No, and it cannot be. That would make God evil, demonic, unjust, cruel, depraved, everything that atheists say about God. The reality, sandi, is that folks like you are more anti-god, more atheist or antitheist, than the people who actually take that label for themselves.

    ” Having a tantrum.”
    Projecting your emotional state at me is not going to do you any good.

    ” The person needs to change, and to turn to Christ.”

    Indeed, you absolutely do need to change, turn to Christ. One step on that journey, sandi, will be confessing your sin of mass murder in thought and word.

  • Where did you get the poor baby sheep you slaughtered so you could bathe in its blood?

    When it died, did it make a lot of agonizing noises? Did you like hearing it die in pain?

  • Your replies simply prove that you know you are wrong, but you are just too in love, too addicted to the feeling of superiority your sick theology gives you, to even care.

    Tell me, how many GLBTQ people do you and your peers have to kill, before you will admit that you are wrong?

  • Hi Mirele. I’m sorry for that struggle that you and the potential husband went through. But it sounds as though you both avoided a disaster, and I’m glad for you both. I hope he has gone on to be happy and you too.

    I’m one who *did* marry on the promise that I would leaving it behind — homosexuality that is. And that promise was empty, requiring me to present a false self every day of my marriage. To be whole, I have had to come to terms with the homosexual facet of my temperament.

    Even my Christian friends show mercy to me, realizing that they need mercy themselves just as much. And this attitude of humility is far more Christ like than the belief which claims that “you have to be X before being acceptable to Jesus”. THAT kind of judgement attitude is extremely damaging.

  • Being gay is NOT like being a slave. Your reference to “plantation” is offensive. At my church I know of 3 married gay couples, and 1 married lesbian couple. Of the gay couples, one has been together for 30 years and in their relationship I see humility, commitment, respect and love.

  • I strongly disagree. Being gay is not slavery.

    I do have a question, Boydlee. Are you speaking from abstract knowledge? Or are you speaking from personal experience?

    In other words, are you speaking about gay people, and what they SHOULD be going through, according to the Bible? Or are you speaking from the experience of a man, who is gay, but has successfully left it behind?

    In other words, do you have a dog in this fight?

  • This is not even nonsense, it’s gobbledygook. Nor do I bear malice towards homosexuals, I merely call those who profess to be Christians to honor the clear textual narrative and admonitions of the bible.

  • I have had personal interchanges with Sandi based on information she has provided of which you have no knowledge, they are clear and convincing evidence that filthy lucre is not what drives her efforts. Simply because she does not choose to dignify your question with an answer does not negate that fact.

  • 1. I’ve heard the argument concerning the sin of the “inhospitality” of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah often, which is a succinct one word summation of your argument regarding the nature of their sin. In reference to Ezek. 16:49-50, please define detestable which presumably is graver than inhospitality.
    2. Romans Chapter One is not a discourse on temple prostitution as is often argued by proponents of the legitimacy of homosexual relationships within the church.
    3. The 2nd Chapter of 2nd Peter makes clear reference to the filthy, ungodly, and wicked behavior of the Sodomites as well as their unlawfulness; Such sins though not specified are above and beyond pride and arrogance, including uncleanness of the flesh in all its manifestations.
    4. Jude references both fornication and strange flesh. It is clear from nature biologically speaking that sexual activity is naturally intended for the opposite sexes, for both procreation and pleasure, in Judeo-Christian theology under the bonds of marriage. Homosexual acts by the lower creatures are no argument for homosexuality in humans. Animals are mere brute beasts who have no capacity for rational or spiritual precepts.
    5. 1st Timothy, Chap. 1: verse 10, etc.
    I have no expectation that you will be moved by my arguments, nor I by yours. I am content to wait upon God’s judgment.

  • “This is not even nonsense, it’s gobbledygook.”

    Thank you for admitting that you are completely incapable of refuting the material presented.

    “Nor do I bear malice towards homosexuals,

    Your posts prove that you do.

    ” I merely call those who profess to be Christians to honor the clear textual narrative and admonitions of the bible.”

    Oh, but on the subject of homosexual sex, no such ‘clear textual narratives and admonitions’ exist.

  • Prove it.

    I presented you with an extensive analysis, you dismissed it out of hand indicating that you lack the knowledge to refute what I presented.

    Now you are simply making false assertions about me.

  • ” But heaping seven hundred millions counts of murder onto Sandi gets nowhere, in my opinion.”

    So she and her peers are not to be told of their sins, or the magnitude of them?

    Going from the broad ‘false belief’ instead of her specific call for the deaths of homosexuals, and then arguing ” That doesn’t really make us guilty of murder” is not honest.

    It is pretty straightforward. Sandi invoked a passage that demands the death penalty, and despite all evidence provided, repeatedly insisted that it was about homosexuals. So she declared that her god wants homosexuals killed. That is what happened.

    Jesus teaches us that even sinning in one thoughts is still sin. Matthew 5:

    “21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[b][c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.”

    “27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

    Luther argues even more strongly, in his Large Catechism, that if see someone in danger of being harmed, and we do nothing to prevent that harm, then we have violated ‘thou shalt not kill’.

    So, yeah, Sandi has committed murder in thought and word, both by arguing that her god wants homosexuals killed, and by failing to make the simplistic act possible to hinder the harm imposed on GLBTQ – not posting anti-gay theology in public.

    “but upping the emotional stakes that high probably won’t help.”

    Actually, the history of the last 50+ years of GLBTQ civil rights argumentation indicates that invoking the emotional component, exposing the huge physical and emotional stakes for GLBTQ people, is among the most effective ways to go.

    I’ve been debating and rebuking anti-gay theology since the days of dial-up modems.

  • Oh, you have some secret “insider” information which we should just accept as “fact”, because you say so. No. This ghoulish “Sandi” woman thinks “lol” is an appropriate response when the topic is teen suicide and abuse. She repeatedly refuses to answer a straightforward question about her financial involvement in a medically harmful, unethical practice. It’s bad enough that she promotes it at all. These abuses happen because people don’t ask questions, and they look the other way. I want to know what the hell she is up to.

  • I will try one more time. The issue I am addressing is not whether homosexual behavior is a sin or not. An analogy is the vice lists in Paul name a lot of sins that are connected with anger, such as wrath or thymos. Does then being a Christian eliminate all feelings of anger? Or does being Christian enable us to express our anger in a less destructive manner? Does the Christian life result in a complete change in feelings, or is it a change in the way we express feelings? Does being Christian eliminate all sexual desire?

  • Just saying the actual meaning of the word is splitting hairs isn’t an argument. It IS what the word Arsenokoitus actually means.

  • I’ve been taking a breather from posting, and am not sure when I’ll jump back in; but I still visit to read articles and comments regarding how people (mis)treat each other. Having read the comments posted to the two current LGBT-related articles, I’m struck by the amount of attention given to those who clearly come here just to inflame others. So, before resuming my rejuvenation, I wanted to leave a little food for thought for all the goodhearted contributors who find themselves in firefighting mode a little too often:

    Consider what is gained by endlessly engaging (entertaining?) the same trolls who…
    …could sow love, but choose to sow hatred.
    …could accept equality, but choose to claim inequality.
    …could express respect, but choose to express contempt.
    …could embrace compassion, but choose to embrace cruelty.
    …could honor others’ personal boundaries, but choose to violate them.
    …could ask us about ourselves, but choose to tell us about ourselves.
    …could open their minds, but choose to close them.
    …could seek unity, but choose to seek division.
    …could judge themselves, but choose to judge strangers.
    …could demonstrate humility, but choose to demonstrate hubris.
    …could celebrate their beliefs, but choose to desecrate ours.
    …could show the very best of their religions, but choose to show the very worst.

    In other words…
    They won’t respond to reason
    They won’t respond to fear
    Perhaps if we ignore them
    They’ll hold their breaths all year.

  • Homosexuality is a sin and it is immoral.”

    Your Christianity is Simply Ignorant Nonsense (SIN), and it is imbecilic.

  • Not a lot – the straightforward application of reason doesn’t.

    Unlike, I imagine, trying to obscure/avoid/redefine reality in order to perpetuate things that are desirable but irrational.

  • No, he wasn’t. But that wasn’t my point, was it?

    But he was lying, using his “research” to enrich himself, contributing to unhappiness, misery, and political oppression, suicide, broken families and destroyed lives.

    So, no, I don’t think I’ll calm down– not until religionists stop using their bibles as weapons, and homosexual hating homosexuals stop using the lives of other people as fodder for their self hatred machines.

  • God also condemns judging others until you have achieved moral perfection yourself.

    But here you are anyway.

  • That would indeed be wonderful, Edward.

    Let me know when they begin to honor those clear textual narratives themselves, instead of insisting that others should, especially when those others don’t share their denomination or faith.

  • A long list of horrific attacks, and allyou can offer is “sad” and “serves them right.”

    You are not a decent human being.

  • Floyd simply cannot see the irony of a black man comparing other people living their lives freely and openly, authentically, as they are made to the slavery that his own people endured for centuries.

    He is simply poisoned by his religious belief, and poisoned as well by what are his increasingly obvious issues.

  • No, the obvious reality does quite well.

    One word of response: sad.

    Only other clause: well, they won’t be going to heaven.

    You are not a nice person.

  • Someone who can have sex with one gender, then later have sex with the other isn’t “ex-gay”, they are obviously bisexual.
    The existence of some folks who are bisexual is no more evidence that every gay can become straight, then the existence of the ambidextrous is evidence that every left handed person can become right handed.
    For most people their sexual orientation is fixed, just as for most people their handed-ness is fixed.
    The exceptions do not prove the rule.

  • So-called “reparative therapy” or “gay conversion therapy” is big business that rakes in a lot of ill-got gain for the frauds and con artists selling false hope to foolish parents with more dollars than sense. When a year in a secretive “gay fix” camp costs as much as $20K per teen per year, the sheer amount of money passing hands under the table will ensure it goes on as long as hate groups like the Family Research Council and the World Congress of Families get away with promoting the practice. Our current Vice President of the United States, Mike Pence, has nefarious ties to the quasi-criminal “ex-gay” industry. Someone will have to take a case to the US Supreme Court and prevail before this criminal enterprise goes away or has any chance of going away.

  • Are you saying that you are in favour of turning one’s daughter into a prostitute?
    He wasn’t charging the men for the use of his daughters. He did a stupid thing but, his error proved one thing though, the men at the door wanted homosexual sex.
    Lot was righteous because he trusted God.
    I hope this helps you.

  • You have put your spin on the Bible record to attribute anything from the Old Testament to Jesus. Every time in the New Testament that Jesus made reference to the Old Testament, he modified the OT message into something new. Hallelujah hypocrites like to reverse one Jesus’s most well-known miracles by turning common sense into whine.

  • All of those groups are forms of fraud that sell false hope to foolish parents with more dollars than sense. The recent ABC 20/20 report on secretive gay conversion camps shows just how dangerous, evil and wrong such groups really are, but they make a lot of money, which is why the evil, corrupt practice continues…it’s all about the money.

  • That is the exact scripture used to explain homosexuals and other unsaved people. Good to see you open a Bible.

  • Actually, Christ was accurate with Leviticus 20:13. He chose to die for the people should they repent of their sin and follow Him – otherwise, they will die for their sin. He will give them grace until the day they die, and if they have not repented, they will have then chosen Hell – the second death.

  • The reality is that the non-secretive, publicly accountable, properly credentialed, reputable psychologists and counselors, have helped tens of thousands of people move away from homosexuality and gay-self-identity.

    I have met one local psychologist and one local Christian counselor who exactly fit this description. Also one experienced, longtime pastor who offers a class and counseling along these lines. I believe there are more such professionals out there, I just haven’t met them.

    And no, they’re not going to go away.

  • It’s the same One you spit at by endorsing people should go to Hell, rather than be forgiven their sin, Mark.

  • if you have read Genesis 19, you would know that they believe the angels to be men and they wanted intimate sex with them – so much so, they refused Lot’s daughters for sex.

  • Ecclesiastes 10:2 – A wise man’s heart inclines him to the right,
    but a fool’s heart to the left.

  • Sandi, he is telling you the truth. Your message incites violence against Gay people. You claim incitement of violence is not a sin.

  • Sure they do exist Mark:

    1 Corinthians 11:9 -neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

  • “The reality is that the non-secretive, publicly accountable, properly credentialed, reputable psychologists and counselors, have helped tens of thousands of people move away from homosexuality and gay-self-identity.”

    Unless you can cite verifiable independent proof of that assertion, I would call BS on. There are exactly zero reputable professionals who agree with such nonsense, let alone give any credence to it. Hallelujah church “shrinks” do not count as reliable or properly credentialed.

  • Oh Daniel, another example of how lost you are! Why do you even try to comment on this subject?

  • Daniel, I think you need to change churches.
    Galatians 1:11 – 11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel.[c] 12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

  • One does not earn anything with heterosexuality, Daniel. Salvation is a free gift from Christ when He calls you. Our response is to repent of our sin and follow Him. Christ did teach that homosexuals will not see the Kingdom of Heaven though, so all homosexuality is, is another sin to keep one out of God’s blessings.

  • Fight it out with Christ, Mark. He taught that homosexuality is a sin that will keep one out of the Kingdom of Heaven. He even discusses how He changed people from being homosexual….
    1 Corinthians 6:9-11

    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[b] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[c] 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

  • Millions of American Christians belong to denominations that ordain gay clergy and celebrate same sex marriages. Millions of American Christians belong to denominations that do not.
    They all claim to love Jesus.

  • Homosexuality is a sin that Christ said He would forgive and cleanse one of if they repent and turn to Him. Blessings to you .

  • Christians may belong to the denominations, but that doesn’t mean the church is Christian, Hobbit. Christians do not teach against what Christ taught.

  • Actually, I would suggest that it is you hurting people Croquet. My intent is that they should know the truth and have the opportunity to go to Heaven. Your support of their sin, indicates otherwise. Blessings.

  • You believe that He changed it when He said “You shall not murder. You shall not steal”?

  • You are like people who are against mixed race marriages. Anything said to them will never convince them to change. And, like you, they justify this belief on scripture. You are like the Pharoah, whose heart was hardened. Even plagues didn’t convince him to let the Israelites go. Likewise, nothing will convince you that LGBT are persons of Sacred Worth AS they are. If someone is going to hell because of they are, that means they are not precious.

  • Matthew 19:18-22
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
    20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
    21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
    22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

    Absolutely. The emphasis in that passage goes from physical obedience of “shall nots” to the higher obedience of proactive faith. Thanks for making my case.

  • That’s a false connection. The claim that any of those fraudulent groups represents Jesus or that Jesus mandated such fraud is more nonsense. Your question presumes a falsehood as the basis for being asked.

  • I know that there is no evidence in the New Testament of the Nicene notion of the Trinity. Jesus is not interchangeable with Jehovah, except by doctrines developed after the Bible to try to deal with internal conflicts of the Bible itself. But even so, your bible-based “proof” is not real evidence.

  • I did not say anything about the groups. Jesus stated: 1 Corinthians 6:11 – “And such were some of you.” He healed and helped the homosexuals to leave their sin.
    So, again you believe Jesus is a fraud?

  • The Bible does not prevent mixed race marriages, so you are in error in your first line, Daniel.
    Homosexuals are of sacred worth, Daniel. Christ died for them as well. When they renounce their sin, He will accept them into His family, but not until.
    People go to Hell because they choose to. They choose to reject Christ here, He will grant their wishes in the afterlife.

    If you are still following a course of self pleasing, you are only fooling yourself if you think you have come to Christ. AW Pink

  • 1 John 5:7 – King James Version
    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    Also, if you look in Mark where Jesus is baptized, you will see the evidence of the trinity.

  • I don’t always take what Paul said about Jesus as authoritative. Neither do you or you would not be trying to preach Jesus as a woman to a man. The fact that you are preaching Jesus to me using Paul means that you pick and choose among Paul’s writings yourself. Thanks for making my case, again.

  • The main response to Jesus is to love our neighbor. Jesus explicitly stated that following him was more important than heterosexual marriage, but never said it was more important than love. Rahab in James 2:25 didn’t have to stop being a Harlot to be justified before God.

  • There are passages in the Bible against mixed marriages. Racism was based on the story of Noah’s sons.

  • Jesus taught that we should continue His work and teach everyone all that He commanded, Daniel. That is the Great Commission. That is what the Christians on these pages do.

  • Paul learned through revelation from Jesus, so one needs to be taking him seriously. Read Galatians 1:11
    You also need to be taught that a woman is not to assume authority or teach men, but it is in a church setting – or do you picket high school teachers and university professors who teach?

  • If prostitutes as prostitutes could go to heaven, then so can Gay people. God doesn’t condemn people for immutable characteristics.

  • John 3:3 – New International Version
    Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
    Acts 3:19
    New International Version
    Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

  • I am fighting your distortions of what Jesus taught. Jesus always sided with the downtrodden and the oppressed.

  • Read what I said again.John 14:15 – “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” 
    1 John 5:2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands.
    Christ commanded “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.” Leviticus 18:22

  • How many teens did you drive to suicide today Sandi? The worldwide medical community describes the practice you support as “harmful” and “unethical”. You type “lol” in response to death. Answer the question. Do you, a family member , or an organization you’re involved with take money from people for this practice? Why won’t you be honest and straightforward? Why are you continuing to evade the question? Are you afraid of legally implicating yourself in the deaths of vulnerable teens? Have teens died at a facility you work at or support?

  • It is NOT a choice Sandi, to be Gay. The experience of the Anti gay Exodus International proves that. Compassion and empathy are important qualities for Christians to have. What you say about it being a choice displays a lack of empathy.

  • If I have helped any teen know that they need Jesus and in this world, thinking they are a homosexual, they REALLY need Jesus and His truth, as the world would happily watch them go to Hell, applauding them all the way – as people do with Ellen.
    Jesus said that He would forgive and cleanse us of our sin, and that’s all these children need.
    Why do you want them to go to Hell?

  • Sin is always a choice.

    “The truth is, sexual sin never comes out of the blue. It is the predictable result of natural processes. Relationships are neglected and a mind get exposed to impurity.

    “Tomorrow’s character is made out of today’s thoughts. Temptation may come suddenly, but sin doesn’t. Neither does moral and spiritual fiber. Both result from a process over which we do have control.

    “We become what we think. We forge our sexual morality through an ongoing series of choices and actions, tiny indulgences and miniscule compromises. The eye lingers here…the mind loiters there. Like a photographic place forming an image, our mind accumulates what we expose it to, godly or ungodly.

    “The battle is in our minds.”

    Randy Alcorn, The Purity Principle, Multnomah Press

    James 1:13Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

  • Well, again, you are mistaken. “Born from above” means “born again” John 3:1-21

  • Good questions, Christopher Curzon. The truth is that everybody has a dog in this fight. On any given day, things can suddenly shift from “abstract” to “now it’s in your lap, baby.” It only takes one phone call or a sit-down.

    I myself am not gay, but I always keep before me the biblical admonition “Let him who thinks he stands, take heed lest he fall.” (1 Cor 10:12). As soon as you say, “Hmph, I ain’t like THOSE people, I’m better than them, I’ll never sin like that”, you’re already At-Risk. That’s no joke. The Bible says that all temptations are “common to humanity” (1 Cor. 10:13).

    But meanwhile, if you check my family tree, you will find alcoholism, abortion, and yes, homosexuality. Just as simple as that. You ask if I have a “dog in the fight”, well one’s own relatives will always be a dog in the fight, trust me.

    Furthermore, as a pastoral counselor in places of incarceration, youth and adults, I met a few gay folks. Some were okay with it, but SOME wanted out, and you could even see it in their faces. They seriously wanted healing and deliverance. Seeing their pain, became another “dog in the fight” for me.

  • Why won’t you answer the question, Sandi? Why the endless evasions? I suspect it’s because you are afraid of legally implicating yourself in the death of teens. Is “conversion therapy” banned in your state? Are you participating in illegal activities? Stop spouting your zealot garbage and simply answer the question.

  • You make it a church setting by presenting religion as your the basis for your claimed right to discriminate. We do not have to be inside a church building for Paul’s objection to female preachers to apply. That would just be your way of getting around that prohibition without owning up to doing so, which is more than just a little disingenuous. So, every time you try to insert your understanding of religion into the discussion, you are setting that part of Paul’s teachings aside. That is not to say that you are wrong to do so, but it is what is is, ignoring parts of the Bible you don’t agree with.

  • You see evidence that there is a God in heaven, a savior on earth, and the presence of the Holy Ghost. Each has a separate space and identity in those passages. In John, Jesus tells the disciples to be one as he and his father are one, meaning to be unified in purpose. So, your gotcha passages only got you instead of me.

  • That displays a complete lack of understanding of sexual orientation. If actions determine feelings, then why do so many gay people find that heterosexual marriage does not change their feelings? Attractions are not a choice. What we do with them is a choice. I cannot choose to be erotically attracted to females.