General story

Trump, unlikely religious favorite, hails Christian values

President Donald Trump arrives to speak to the 2017 Value Voters Summit, Friday, Oct. 13, 2017, in Washington. AP Photo/Evan Vucci

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump’s evolution from twice-divorced casino owner viewed warily by Christian conservatives to evangelical favorite defending religious liberty was on full display Friday as he promised conservatives a return to traditional American values, including restoring “Merry Christmas” to the national discourse.

Trump, the first sitting president to address the Values Voter Summit, ticked off the promises he’s fulfilled to evangelical Christians and other conservatives, pledging to turn back the clock in what he described as a nation that has drifted away from its religious roots.

“How times have changed, but you know what, now they are changing back again, just remember that,” Trump told the cheering crowd.

It was a far cry from the skeptical welcome Trump received when he first addressed the group as a neophyte politician in 2015. With questions swirling then about whether he could appeal to evangelicals over conservative candidates like Texas Sen. Ted Cruz and former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, Trump held a Bible aloft and declared: “I believe in God. I believe in the Bible. I’m a Christian.'”

Trump appeared before the group again last September, in the electoral stretch run usually devoted to wooing undecided voters, and aimed his pitch toward his religious base. Though he avoided some hot-button social issues like same-sex marriage and abortion, he vowed his support for Israel, an important issue for evangelicals, and said it was the “dream” of the Islamic State for his opponent Hillary Clinton to be elected president.

This time, he had the crowd won over before he stepped onstage.

He bemoaned the use of the phrase “Happy Holidays” as a secular seasonal greeting and vowed a return to “Merry Christmas.”

He noted, as Christian conservatives often do, that there are four references to the “creator” in the Declaration of Independence, saying “religious liberty is enshrined” in the nation’s founding documents.

“I pledged that in a Trump administration, our nation’s religious heritage would be cherished, protected and defended like you have never seen before,” Trump said. “Above all else in America, we don’t worship government. We worship God.”

Trump stressed his move to weaken the Johnson Amendment, which limited political activity or endorsements by religious groups that received tax exemptions, as well as his administration’s effort to expand the rights of employers to deny women insurance coverage for birth control. The White House has also issued sweeping guidance on religious freedom that critics have said could erode civil rights protections for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people.

Trump waded again into the cultural war that has captured his attention in recent weeks, declaring to loud applause that “we respect our great American flag,” a not-too-subtle reference to his repeated denunciations of NFL players who have taken to kneeling during the national anthem.

But Trump also struck several empathetic notes, offering condolences to the victims of the Las Vegas mass shooting with a quote from scripture and pledging support to the people of Texas, Florida and Puerto Rico, which have been ravaged by recent hurricanes. His kind words for Puerto Rico — which included a morning tweet in which he vowed to “always” be with its residents — stood in stark contrast to his tweets the day before, when he declared that federal personnel would not be able to stay “forever” to help the island. Puerto Rico remains largely without power weeks after the storm.

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  • “The White House has also issued sweeping guidance on religious freedom that critics have said could erode civil rights….” How does having a relationship with Jesus, and the fact that they can then end up in Heaven, erode their “civil rights”?

  • Trump promotes immorality and worship of false gods. There is nothing more important to most of today’s Christians as their guns, money and status… Peace, love and compassion are irrelevant to their churches & themselves.

    Evangelical Christianity has been hijacked by people who would give Jesus himself the boot if he knocked at their door.. Jimmy Carter

  • If Trump actually saves Christmas from all the commercial decadence and the constant attacks from the left it would be incredible. Christmas can be saved and I believe Trump will lead the way.

    PS: Christmas is not just a Christian holiday, non Christians around the world celebrate Christmas as well. One can see that in Japan.

  • Trump has done a great job in the last 10 months and I do not see why it will not continue do you?

  • Okay if you are going to act shocked or surprised or even if you genuinely are shocked and surprised by my comment then we have completely different opinions about Trump that cannot be resolved in a chat.

  • And you wonder why the churches are empty. This is who Christians choose to associate with. The hypocrisy is staggering.

  • Not an unlikely favorite of religious voters.

    Quite likely, seeing that he ran as a republican.

    But the irony of a three times married, twice divorced, self admitted fornicator and sexual assaulter appealing to the value voters.

  • Says the person who wants gay people in jail because of her religious beliefs, and could not say for sure that other people who do not share her religious beliefs shouldn’t be in jail.

  • I also want pedophiles, people who participate in best/iality, incest, in jail also, Ben. You aren’t special.

  • Lets be brutally honest here, the real title of this article is:
    “Trump pledges fealty to ultra-conservative Christian values at the expense of all others”

    Evangelical Christians and Neo-nazis are about the last group of uncritical supporters Trump has left these days. What a craven bunch looking for handouts.

  • So you think our laws are beholden to your sectarian beliefs. Please don’t ever bother us with your views of what religious freedom means. You do not understand the concept.

  • Unless they are evangelical Christians or appeal to them. Then they are simply “Baby Christians” and all is forgiven.

  • LMAO, how is Trump anything but commercial decadence?

    Japan’s Christmas takes out all the religious elements and turns it into a couple’s date night day. It is nothing but a commercial decadence holiday there and they are proud of that. Plus its an excuse for an extra day off between the Emperor’s birthday (12/23) and New Years Day (their biggest holiday).

  • Do you live in a cave?
    Do you live in Moscow?
    Have you recently underwent a lobotomy?

    Nothing you just posted makes any sense to someone living in America and with their wits about them. Trump has made the US an international laughingstock, has one of the most malicious agendas of an American politician since the 19th Century, and is polling so low that it is clear that about half the people who voted for him regret the decision.

  • What forms the basis of your opinion here?
    What has he done that you find so great?
    Does Russia pay its trolls well?

  • Sorry Spud, if you think people abusing children, animals and each other is good, well, you have more problems than me.

  • Its quite well documented by shills such as Jerry Fallwell Jr. and every evangelical Trump supporter, including Floydlee.

  • Obviously you cared enough to disagree with me on the subject and claim I was saying something false. You are clearly mistaken, so now you show no interest.

  • Thank you, Herr Goebbels.

    So you have a fetish for malicious incompetents who pander to your religious belief, but have zero respect for it. We get that.

  • President Trump is a sinner like all of us. Those who reject and hate God are unforgivable, but for those who love God and repent of sin, there is forgiveness grace and Heaven. Many of us hope to meet Mr Trump in Heaven. May God Bless all of us unworthy sinners including President Trump and Ben in Oakland.

  • But he’s not repenting. He is still living with his third wife. If he was repenting, he would be single.

    sorry, I miswrote. If he were repenting, he would be back with Ivanka. And if she were a complete masochist, she’d let him.

  • Somebody else offered that same claim recently. I asked him to show me where Jesus specified for divorced-and-remarried people to dump their current spouse in order to show repentance.

    Predictably, no verification was given. But maybe you’ll be able to provide it instead?

  • Spuddie,
    We are just happy to have a great leader in the White House and not Hillary. Maybe someday you will come to share our happiness. Don’t worry be happy. Cheers!

  • Do you know what your problem is, Ben? You apparently have real morals, which makes it impossible to understand religious people.

  • Someone sit that a$$ down and read him the NO establishment clause of the Constitution he swore to uphold! And Happy Holidays!

  • Keep telling those lies to yourself. How convenient that you refused to extend that courtesy to President Obama, President Clinton or Hillary!

  • You should actually take the time to study the 1st amendment. You can put all the Nativity Scenes you want on your property; You do NOT have the right to use public property to push your religion.

  • That’s the catholic position. As an atheist, I find it all pretty silly.

    However, Jesus was clear about this. ““Because of your hardness of heart, he wrote you this commandment Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery “Divorce for any reason other than adultery is a no-no. marrying someone who is divorced is adultery.
    so, no he doesn’t have to dump his recent wife. but if he is married to her, he is committing adultery. And if he is committing adultery, he isn’t repenting of it, now is he.

  • All other things being equal, I much prefer Merry Christmas to Happy Holidays, but then I would also prefer Happy Hannukah as well.

  • They are definitely not lies, errors, or any other misstatement of biblical doctrine. Nor did bqrq explicitly or implicitly “refuse” to extend such courtesy to any of those you named. That is solely an inference on your part, and a badly framed one at that. I will now extend that blessing to Presidents’ Obama and Clinton, as well as Mrs. Clinton. Indeed, I even extend that blessing to you, in accordance with God’s declared will, may you spiritually profit from it, in Jesus’ Name.

  • Silly. No government can force or prevent merchants and private citizens from using the holiday greeting of their choice. Ridiculous for Trump to claim he can change this.

  • You are free, as are all Americans, to use the holiday greeting of your choice and to be offended if someone uses another greeting.

  • No, the Old Testament does. There is a difference. You know the Old Testament. The book Christians claim they use all of when they want to act to tough to others, but doesn’t apply to themselves when they want an excuse.

  • “Nor did bqrq explicitly or implicitly “refuse” to extend such courtesy to any of those you named.”

    He was most certainly doing so when they were in office as were virtually all of Trump’s current Evangelical supporters. 8 years of demonizing the president and suddenly they demand respect for the position? Give us all a break.

    Why demand a level of respect that was never given to others?
    The answer to that is entirely Christian privilege. Claim a right to attack others, but cry bloody murder when the sentiment is returned.

  • Show me your Talmud citation?

    My citations:
    Judges 21:10-24
    Numbers 31:7-18
    Deuteronomy 20:10-14
    Judges 5:30
    Exodus 21:7-11
    Zechariah 14:1-2

  • Bad link. 404 Not found.

    Besides, its the personal website of an anti-semite nutjob and frequent poster on holocaust denial sites, who blames 9/11 on “THE JOOOOOOS”.

    Something that would have slipped by in the late 90’s but is just an amateurish hack job these days.

    Try an actual quote from a book you claim supports a given premise.

  • Sadly….the average reader of this site will never CHECK your claim. None of those verses imply “rape”. Slander…..is all you are capable of.

  • The way it works is this:
    You can have your menorah, nativity scene, festivus pole, or any other religious display on government property, provided it is not there all by itself with no other faiths represented.

    Given the desire to be festive, nobody goes wrong with a bunch of different religions with their own displays on the public property.

    The War on Christmas thing is bullcrap from Christian Fundamentalists who just don’t like the idea of sharing with others and love using my tax money to subsidize their faith.

  • Hardly slander.

    “If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.”
    Deuteronomy 22:28-29

    ITS….RIGHT….THERE

  • It would have been more fun if the link worked. I know.

    Hey, I still defend your beliefs from those Christians who want to deny that you are one of them. You are far more honest than they are in that regard.

    But the thing about claims about an ancient religious book is that you can look them up fairly easily in this day and age. You walked into it.

  • For anyone who cares – who might be following this conversation…
    Prior to Deuteronomy 22:28, we have Deuteronomy 22:25; which is the instruction for rape. verse 28 would be redundant if it meant ‘rape’. It does not.
    But this is typical of someone like a spuddie. They hate Truth. So why would they even remotely try to understand that which they hate.

  • http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/22-28.htm
    New International Version
    If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

    New Living Translation
    “Suppose a man has intercourse with a young woman who is a virgin but is not engaged to be married. If they are discovered,

    English Standard Version
    “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,

    New American Standard Bible
    “If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,

    King James Bible
    If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    If a man encounters a young woman, a virgin who is not engaged, takes hold of her and rapes her, and they are discovered,

    International Standard Version
    “However, if a man meets a girl who isn’t engaged to be married, and he seizes her, rapes her, and is later found out,

    NET Bible
    Suppose a man comes across a virgin who is not engaged and overpowers and rapes her and they are discovered.

    New Heart English Bible
    If a man find a lady who is a virgin, who is not pledged to be married, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

    GOD’S WORD® Translation
    This is what you must do when a man rapes a virgin who isn’t engaged. When the crime is discovered,

    JPS Tanakh 1917
    If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

    New American Standard 1977
    “If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,

    Jubilee Bible 2000
    When a man finds a damsel that is a virgin who is not betrothed and lays hold on her and lies with her, and they are found,

    King James 2000 Bible
    If a man find a young woman that is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

    American King James Version
    If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

    American Standard Version
    If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, who is not espoused, and taking her, lie with her, and the matter come to judgment :

    Darby Bible Translation
    If a man find a damsel, a virgin, who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found,

    English Revised Version
    If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

    Webster’s Bible Translation
    If a man shall find a damsel that is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

    World English Bible
    If a man find a lady who is a virgin, who is not pledged to be married, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

    Young’s Literal Translation
    ‘When a man findeth a damsel, a virgin who is not betrothed, and hath caught her, and lain with her, and they have been found,

  • The word rape is used in your reference as well in various translations:
    http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/22-25.htm

    New International Version
    But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.

    New Living Translation
    “But if the man meets the engaged woman out in the country, and he rapes her, then only the man must die.

    English Standard Version
    “But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die.

    New American Standard Bible
    “But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die.

    King James Bible
    But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    But if the man encounters an engaged woman in the open country, and he seizes and rapes her, only the man who raped her must die.

    International Standard Version
    “If a man meets a girl in the country who is engaged to be married and then rapes her, the man alone—the one who had sexual relations with her—must die.

    NET Bible
    But if the man came across the engaged woman in the field and overpowered her and raped her, then only the rapist must die.

    New Heart English Bible
    But if the man find the lady who is pledged to be married in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her; then the man only who lay with her shall die:

    GOD’S WORD® Translation
    But if a man rapes an engaged girl out in the country, then only the man must die.

    JPS Tanakh 1917
    But if the man find the damsel that is betrothed in the field, and the man take hold of her, and lie with her; then the man only that lay with her shall die.

    New American Standard 1977
    “But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die.

    Jubilee Bible 2000
    But if the man found a betrothed damsel in the field and the man forced her and lay with her; then only the man that lay with her shall die;

    King James 2000 Bible
    But if a man find a betrothed young woman in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:

    American King James Version
    But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

    American Standard Version
    But if the man find the damsel that is betrothed in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her; then the man only that lay with her shall die:

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    But if a man find a damsel that is betrothed, in the field, and taking hold of her, lie with her, he alone shall die:

    Darby Bible Translation
    But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her, then the man only that lay with her shall die;

    English Revised Version
    But if the man find the damsel that is betrothed in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her; then the man only that lay with her shall die:

    Webster’s Bible Translation
    But if a man shall find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man shall force her, and lie with her; then the man only that lay with her shall die:

    World English Bible
    But if the man find the lady who is pledged to be married in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her; then the man only who lay with her shall die:

    Young’s Literal Translation
    ‘And if in a field the man find the damsel who is betrothed, and the man hath laid hold on her, and lain with her, then hath the man who hath lain with her died alone;

  • http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/22-29.htm
    Deuteronomy 22:29
    New International Version
    he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

    New Living Translation
    he must pay her father fifty pieces of silver. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he may never divorce her as long as he lives.

    English Standard Version
    then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.

    New American Standard Bible
    then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.

    King James Bible
    Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    the man who raped her must give the young woman’s father 50 silver shekels, and she must become his wife because he violated her. He cannot divorce her as long as he lives.”

    International Standard Version
    then the man who raped her must give 50 shekels of silver to the girl’s father. Furthermore, he must marry her. Because he had violated her, he is to not divorce her as long as he lives.

    NET Bible
    The man who has raped her must pay her father fifty shekels of silver and she must become his wife because he has violated her; he may never divorce her as long as he lives.

    New Heart English Bible
    then the man who lay with her shall give to the lady’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has humbled her; he may not put her away all his days.

    GOD’S WORD® Translation
    the man who had sexual intercourse with her must give the girl’s father 11/4 pounds of silver, and she will become his wife. Since he raped her, he can never divorce her as long as he lives.

    JPS Tanakh 1917
    then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he hath humbled her; he may not put her away all his days.

    New American Standard 1977
    then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.

    Jubilee Bible 2000
    then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver and she shall be his wife; because he has humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

    King James 2000 Bible
    Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he has violated her, he may not put her away all his days.

    American King James Version
    Then the man that lay with her shall give to the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he has humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

    American Standard Version
    then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty’shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he hath humbled her; he may not put her away all his days.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    He that lay with her shall give to the father of the maid fifty sides of silver, and shall have her to wife, because he hath humbled her: he may not put her away all the days of his life.

    Darby Bible Translation
    then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty [shekels] of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he hath humbled her; he may not put her away all his days.

    English Revised Version
    then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he hath humbled her; he may not put her away all his days.

    Webster’s Bible Translation
    Then the man that lay with her shall give to the damsel’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

    World English Bible
    then the man who lay with her shall give to the lady’s father fifty [shekels] of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has humbled her; he may not put her away all his days.

    Young’s Literal Translation
    then hath the man who is lying with her given to the father of the damsel fifty silverlings, and to him she is for a wife; because that he hath humbled her, he is not able to send her away all his days.

  • Such a person never contemplates the meaning of the rest of the passage. The man who took the woman’s virginity without permission from the father (that is the violation), is required to keep her as his wife for all his days. Not to mention he also has to pay a dowry. This was consensual sex. No way would a father demand his daughter stay married to a man who raped her (against her will).

  • Marrying one’s rapist was a longstanding tradition in following of those passages. It follows a “you break it, you bought it” principle. The dowry is compensation for taking the property of the father. It is the father who had the right to sell off her daughter’s maidenhood to whom he pleases. Consensual sex never enters the picture here.

    The practice of marrying one’s rapist was pretty explicitly carried out as such for centuries. It even survived into modern day and was the subject of a famous case in Italy, turned into a movie starring Ornella Muti
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franca_Viola

    http://mondo70.blogspot.com/2012/05/most-beautiful-wife-la-moglie-piu-bella.html

  • Lastly………the Law of Moses was fulfilled on the Cross of Christ. The true Christian would never rape as he/she knows that this is NOT the will of the Lord. To suggest that the Creator of the Universe condones rape is absolutely, and totally ABSURD. Such a person does not have the Spirit of Christ. Such a person is “anti-Christ”. Such a person is the enemy to Truth and Salvation.

  • And there goes the excuse for why the Old Testament doesn’t apply to Christians. Except when Christians claim Jesus came to uphold all of the law, including those bits and cite its passages to sound tough to others.

    To suggest that ancient people writing scripture even cared one whit about the consent of a woman in sexual relations is totally ABSURD. Especially in light to how they were considered property to be traded around, even when not considered outright slaves.

    God, Creator of the Universe condones mass murder, slavery and a host of other nastiness which is disavowed in the modern day.
    Here is an entire website devoted to it
    http://www.evilbible.com/

  • I’ve been asking for a long time, but still haven’t been told why a thrice-married, proudly-admitted womanizer and sexual assailant managed to become the champion of the Religious Right, which a couple decades ago tried to destroy a president who had an affair. 

  • Re: “How does having a relationship with Jesus, and the fact that they can then end up in Heaven, erode their ‘civil rights’?” 

    All by itself, it doesn’t. If fundagelicals just kept their beliefs to themselves, it wouldn’t be an issue. But they don’t. They want — no, they demand — the entire country obey their dour metaphysics, whether they wish to or not. 

    Simply put, fundagelicals erode others’ civil rights by mistreating and harassing them, and passing laws that legally permit them to mistreat and harass them. 

    Speaking only for myself — cynical, insolent, godless agnostic heathen that I am — I’ve never understood why the existence of gays (and other folk whom fundagelicals condemn as “abominations”) bothers them so much. I mean, seriously … what does it matter if there are gays? Or non-believers? Or whatever else? Why do fundagelicals think they have a special metaphysical license to harass these “abominable” people? Why do they feel any need to do so? 

    What makes them so childish that merely knowing these “abominations” exist sends them into a towering rage? Again, I get that I’m a cynical, insolent, godless agnostic heathen, and maybe as such I’m not permitted to understand this sanctimonious impulse, or something. But I still don’t get it. 

    Maybe if fundagelicals just grew the heck up, for once, and left everyone else alone, they wouldn’t be accused of eroding others’ civil rights. But they won’t … because they think their deity has excused them from having to act like the grown adults they are. 

  • If anyone actually cares about this……………

    I didn’t “walk into it” as this dinosaur claims. Again…….if you read the whole book of Deuteronomy, prior to the verse in question, Deuteronomy already addressed “rape”. So it is redundant to interpret the Hebrew word ” taphas” as rape.

    The KJV translates Strong’s H8610 in the following manner: take (27x), taken (12x), handle (8x), hold (8x), catch (4x), surprised (2x), miscellaneous (4x).

  • had you tried to write without the childish names, I may have read your comment. A it is, ta ta

  • https://www.quora.com/When-the-Bible-was-translated-to-English-was-the-word-rape-a-faithful-translation

    “The use of the word “rape” is interpretive here as there is no single word in Biblical Hebrew which means to rape.”

    According to Gesenius’ lexicon, the word hecheziq (see the hiphil) used in v.25 is translated as follows;

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/l

    Verse 28 uses the verb taphas translated as follows (the first three are the relevant forms here):

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/l

    and for shakav as follows:

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/l

    It is quite clear in v.25 that force is implied given that the base meaning of the verbal root ch-z-q is strength or force. T-ph-s, used in v.28, has a base meaning of “to hold on to something.” So as mentioned above v.28 seems slightly less clear about force, but the use of the English word rape is probably a fair interpretive translation in both cases. Personally I would go for “seize forcibly and lies with (sexually)” and “grab hold of and lies with (sexually)” in order to better represent the text but the underlying meaning seems pretty clear to me.

  • Nah, don’t let him get away with that — he’s just cutting and pasting with no idea of what he’s talking about. The word “taphas” implies no force whatsoever, although it does not rule it out either. It is the same word that is elsewhere used to describe handling a musical instrument (which adds quite an erotic element to the scenario, and NOT of a forcible kind). The central idea here is of a man “putting his hands on” a woman without any legal right to do so, and whether forcible or consensual the choice of how he will be held responsible for it rests with the woman and her family.

    If the word “chazaq” had appeared instead, as in the case of Amnon and Tamar, then that would clearly indicate force.

  • Hi Shawnie. Thanks for the support. The ultimate proof for me is that rape is addressed just prior to this verse. So it would be totally and completely redundant to address it again. But………this is something that dishonest brokers just ignore. “Hermeneutics” means absolutely nothing to one who has the spirit of anti-Christ. Peace and blessings to you. 🙂

  • Hi Shawnie. Thanks for the support. The ultimate proof for me is that rape is addressed just prior to this verse. So it would be totally and completely redundant to address it again. But………this is something that dishonest brokers just ignore. “Hermeneutics” means absolutely nothing to one who has the spirit of anti-Christ.

  • So you don’t like being called a fundagelical? Too bad. It’s a valid descriptor (combining the word “fundamentalist” with “evangelical”). I guess you’re too thin-skinned to handle that. Ta ta, fundagelical.

  • Didn’t your mother teach you any common courtesy. My God does not condone the molestation of children at any time, and will make the proper judgments in His own time. He is not mocked, nor is His arm foreshortened. But He is patient and merciful, and desires the repentance of all.

  • President Trump derailed the power and influence of gay activists and changed the direction of American society by moving us towards traditional morality and family values. For this we are grateful and we are willing to disregard Trump’s past transgressions. When God forgives then all is well. We love Melania because she is a good Christian wife and mother, and a great First Lady.
    Thank God

  • That’s why you so often respond with yawn and lol. ‘Cause you’re “mature/.”
    You also think you are good Christian, when you are simply a “Good Christian (TM)”.
    It all goes to show that even a stopped clock is wrong twice a day.

  • Yes, thin-skinned … if you think using the word “fundagelical” is “name-calling.” It is no such thing. It’s a valid moniker for a particular type of Christian, a shorthand for “fundamentalist evangelicals.” 

    Since you cannot or will not understand that, you’ve demonstrated your own lack of maturity. 

  • Chazaq would more clearly indicate force, but we’re still talking about a word here that means “seized.” Ultimately, what Spuddie says is right: the word “rape” is “interpretive” because there’s no word that exactly means it. So yes, it’s possible that a man who has sex with a unbetrothed virgin after “seizing” her has not raped her, but that’s ultimately an interpretation. Also, the similar verse in Exodus 22:15-16 talks about “seduction” of an unbetrothed virgin. Laying (sorry) the verses side by side, the Deuteronomic one is more about force.

  • Glad you’re so happy. I only wish the Puerto Rican people could say the same thing. Cholera makes you pretty sad though.

  • He won’t. But he has no intention of doing so. He’ll just find a target — probably Starbucks or Target, something sufficiently universal but left of center — and start excoriating them, claiming they’ve eliminated Christmas, calling for boycotts, etc. Then the right wing media machine will start its Two Minutes Hate and using this as proof that the Fuhrer is Making America Great Again. And we’ll all be done with it by January.

  • One need not insist upon one or the other. The operative word neither denotes rape nor rules it out. The fact remains that the control over the consequences rested with the woman and her family. They could compel a marriage, or they could simply collect a large fine.

  • More reason to shun the sin then Arb.
    Although I have done things wrong and rebelled against Christ many times, He still loves me and I, thankfully, did not lose my job due to it and I don’t wish that for anyone, but, in reality, it gives more reason to shun the sin. And, I don’t wish for them to lose their jobs; that isn’t my wishes.

  • This isn’t just about you, however, and as a non-American in a sense it’s not about you at all. If you wouldn’t fire or refuse service to someone for being gay, then great.

  • It would depend on what service they were asking for Arb. I love homosexuals but I will not endorse their immorality, nor be a party to their death.

  • You know what’s hilariously hypocritical? In the 1990’s Evangelical leaders were thundering about Bill Clinton’s infidelity and saying it made him morally unfit to be President. They demanded that he resign or be impeached.

    Then when Republican Newt Gingrich was found to be cheating on his wife (at the same time he was pounding the podium about Clinton’s cheating!), they started changing their tune.

    Now, they say a man’s moral character is completely irrelevant (if they’re a Republican). A Democrat and a woman’s moral character still counts though (see Hillary Clinton).

  • Try Matthew 19 :9(and preceding verses) and 18. Pretty sure this is what is relied on. Also Paul in Corinthians. However, generally said, if you repent, is okay, And that, it seems to me, allows Ben to repent and stay married to his spouse.

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