A lone protester stands outside the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops meeting in Baltimore on Nov. 13, 2018. RNS photo by Jack Jenkins

U.S. Catholic bishops head for global meeting on sex abuse anxious for progress

BALTIMORE (RNS) — There was a lot of talk but not a lot of action.

When American clerics at the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops began their annual fall gathering in Baltimore on Monday, they were eager to take bold, decisive steps to address what many see as the biggest issue facing the church in years: the resurgence of the child sex abuse crisis.

But when public sessions finally wound down Wednesday afternoon (Nov. 14), those hoping to tackle the issue came away largely empty-handed, their efforts stymied by a last-minute request from the Vatican to wait until after a global meeting on the subject in February to vote on prepared measures designed to hold bishops accountable if they protect abusers or commit abuse themselves.

“I opened the meeting expressing some disappointment. I end it with hope,” said USCCB president Cardinal Daniel DiNardo of Galveston-Houston, although it wasn’t clear whether all of his fellow bishops felt the same.

Reports have since emerged from Italian newspapers that Vatican officials felt they were not given enough time to review the pending USCCB resolutions and quibbled with some of the language. But bishops in Baltimore noted another possible reason for the pushback: an emerging tension between American and international bishops, with U.S.-based clerics desperate to address the abuse crisis and a global church wary about the implications of their actions.

"This is not completely the reason it's happening, but it's part of why this is happening," said Christopher J. Coyne, bishop of Burlington, Vt.

Bishops sit at the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops meeting in Baltimore on Nov. 13, 2018. RNS photo by Jack Jenkins


 This image is available for web publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

Over the course of the three-day meeting, bishop after bishop gave voice to the anger, frustration and confusion they have heard from Catholics since the Pennsylvania attorney general unveiled a report documenting decades of alleged abuse by the church, and especially since revelations concerning Washington Cardinal Theodore McCarrick’s alleged history of abuse emerged earlier this year.

“Some of my pastors have been taken aback by the rage they’ve faced” about the abuse crisis, said Cardinal Joseph Tobin of Newark, N.J., who stressed that clerics should “keep victims central.”

Tobin and others were hoping the USCCB's leadership in answering this anger would set an example for the rest of the church, as it had largely done in 2002 in the aftermath of the Boston Globe’s famous Spotlight report. Bishop Robert Deeley of the Diocese of Portland, Maine, pointed to the “Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People,” a landmark series of church reforms about sex abuse crafted in that year.

“It is, in fact, the American church which brought about those kinds of changes which make it possible for the rest of (the world),” said Deeley, who was working at the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith when American bishops petitioned Vatican officials to approve the charter.

“There’s a history of the American church setting a pattern,” said Deeley.

Bishop Andrew Cozzens, an auxiliary bishop of St. Paul and Minneapolis, suggested American bishops have a responsibility to model a response for the rest of the church.

“I think, as Christians, we’re always trying to look for how is God going to bring good out of evil,” he said. “And I think one of the goods that can come out of the evil that we’ve experienced in the United States can be that we can help people in other parts of the world where the culture of transparency and accountability that we understand is not at all present — that culturally is just not there.”

But offering models for the world’s more than a billion Catholics is a tricky thing. Bishops pointed out that Catholic communities in some countries have difficult or even actively hostile relationships with governments and law enforcement, which makes reporting abuse allegations a difficult task.

“It’s also political within the various regions and countries in which the church finds itself,” said Coyne, chairman of the USCCB's Committee on Communication. “It’s one thing for the United States to say that we will report all allegations to the particular authorities in the country. But if you’re a Catholic community in a church where you’re under fire, under another group that does not like the Catholic Church at all, is someone who has an allegation made against them going to get justice?”

Bishop Christopher J. Coyne talks to media at the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops meeting in Baltimore on Nov. 13, 2018. RNS photo by Jack Jenkins

Politics within the church were also a concern. Tobin noted that even during the immediate aftermath of the 2002 Spotlight report, the American bishops, concerned about how far they could push reforms before the Vatican pushed back, failed to include specific provisions to hold themselves accountable for mishandling of sex abuse. It was that failure that this year’s measures were supposed to address.

But now the credibility of American bishops, Tobin said, was on the line here in Baltimore, suggesting that it had never truly recovered from the Spotlight era. On Tuesday, he declared to the assembly, “If the events of the summer … can do such devastating damage to our moral credibility … what was our credibility built on that it can be so sucked away?”

He was echoed by Bishop Robert Christian, auxiliary bishop for the archdiocese of San Francisco, who called the vote delay “frustrating” during a session Wednesday, saying, “Much as we do respect the Holy See, we also know how long it takes the Holy See to get things done.”

With their open expressions of disappointment at the Vatican's stay, and their repeated calls for action, the American prelates appear to be headed for a collision course come February.

“I think, whether it was intended or not, this whole gambit has raised the expectation for the February meeting,” Tobin said. “So if the February meeting doesn’t produce, or at least doesn’t open some doors for Americans to do what we have to do, that’s gonna be really …trouble.”

Comments

  1. These guys don’t understand they’re the ones standing in the way of progress.

  2. Progress? Standing in the way of those helping children, or those flailing helplessly at the Church?

  3. The Roman Catholic Church is a 1500 yr old worldwide criminal enterprise.

    ” No ” you say…

    Then please tell me what the ” purpose ” of the Roman Catholic Church is ?

    Further – after 1500 yrs – please tell me how successful the RCC has been in that purpose ?

  4. It is amazing that they can do so little, and yet say so much. Truly, the work of the Spirit. Or maybe it is because talk is very, very cheap.

  5. 1st Reading from 2 John 4-9 verse 9.
    Anyone who is so “progressive,” that he does not remain rooted in the teaching of Christ does not possess God, while anyone who remains rooted in the teaching possesses both the Father and the Son.

  6. The 2002 conclave resulted in a set of guidelines which substantially reduced abuse – re:”they can do so little”.

    Among the things which were NOT accomplished were an investigation of the impact of homosexual clergy, spiked by none other than Theodore McCarrick, and a set of rules which the bishops had to follow proposed by Bishop Bruskewitz, also spiked by none other than Theodore McCarrick.

    Since the Catholic Church is a single religion, a single response seems to be in order and on the way.

    I am sure they are very sorry that they have not met your deadlines.

  7. Cardinal Tobin, quoted: “Some of my pastors have been taken aback by the rage they’ve faced” about the abuse crisis … 

    Gosh … ya think!? Wow, what a revelation! 

    </sarcasm> 

  8. Re: “Since the Catholic Church is a single religion, a single response seems to be in order and on the way.” 

    Gee, that sounds all well and good, except for the nagging little problem of this being an old scandal. The Boston Globe “Spotlight” exposés were published in back 2002. Prior to that, several other similar reports had trickled out, around the country, in the late 80s and through the 90s, and a major case in Louisiana (that of Fr Gilbert Gauthe) that made the news in 1985. 

    So call me unimpressed with this effort by “a single religion” to develop “a single response” to an issue that’s been known for decades and dates back at least a few decades before than that. None of this is news to any of these wizened creatures — so why are they acting as though the whole thing has taken the poor little things by surprise? 

  9. As an anti-Catholic I did not need to read your post to know in advance you would be unimpressed.

  10. Re: “As an anti-Catholic …” 

    You still haven’t been able to specify what I’ve ever said that makes me “anti-Catholic.” Criticizing the Church is not enough … lots of Catholics themselves criticize it sometimes, and from all sides. So you need to go further than that. Much further. 

    Also, making fun of you for worshipping your own Church does not make me “anti-Catholic.” It means you’re childish and ridiculous in your unthinking, self-righteous devotion to the institution. Which isn’t “anti-Catholicism” at all. 

    When you summon the courage — and maturity — to finally cough up your evidence that I’m truly “anti-Catholic,” let me know. Until then, you’ll be the sniveling little crybaby you’ve proven yourself to be, long ago. Waaaaah wah waah! Cry on, little whiner! 

  11. You accused me many times of being “anti-Catholic” but are far too much of a sniveling, cowardly whiner to back that up with any evidence of it. 

    Just because you feel as though I’m “anti-Catholic,” does not in any way mean I actually am … because your feelings don’t count for anything. Only objective, verifiable evidence does. 

  12. From the article: But now the credibility of American bishops, Tobin said, was on the line here in Baltimore, suggesting that it had never truly recovered from the Spotlight era. On Tuesday, he declared to the assembly, “If the events of the summer … can do such devastating damage to our moral credibility … what was our credibility built on that it can be so sucked away?”

    That loss of authority has been growing for a long time. It is not just the child sex abuse scandal – although that is, perhaps, the final straw if the Church can’t get its arms around how to deal with it. Bishops already had a weakened credibility that grew out of a population and culture changed by democracy, education, communication, science – so many things that have re-shaped who we are as individuals, changed the shape of families, changed the dynamics of how we interact within the various communities of which we are a part, changed what we can do and how we can do so much that is different from what our ancestors could do.

    Bishop Tobin, the Church has not grown with us, has not grown to be a part of who we are today – especially the women of today. You still want relationships to look like they did in 300 A.D., or maybe 500 A.D., or 1500 A.D. But guess what? I am not your child and you are not my father. I am not your sheep. I am not a strawberry, the sweet treat to be reserved for special occasions, but not hearty enough to give “manly” sustenance for the hard work men do. I am not stupid and, in addition to having a womb, I have many talents and am capable of bringing much that is different, exciting, useful, valuable, and good into the world.

    Catholics in this country have been making compromises with what the Church teaches and how the Church behaves in order to keep being a part of what is also so good about the Church. But there are limits. So take heed of what you already know. A majority of Catholics support civil LGBT marriage and protection of the civil rights of LGBT people. A huge majority of Catholics use contraceptives and a small majority want contraceptives mandated in health insurance (the stunt with the Little Sisters in not signing a form would be laughable if it hadn’t fooled so many people.) Catholic women have hysterectomies just like other women. Most Catholics in this country do not have a problem with women being priests or deacons. Most don’t have a problem with the idea of married priests – far better to make more priests available than to megasize places of worship and far better to make priests available for consultation who actually live the life they claim to have the right to judge and provide counsel in living. You might also consider to what extent the election of Trump was a result of the insistence of so many bishops that a few issues were more important than anything else. Over 50% of Catholics voted for that … horror.

    So, while accountability for covering up child sex abuse may be a final straw issue, there are many other issues that have for years undermined trust and credibility of bishops. Think about it.

  13. The fix for this is at the pew level. As long as people stay in them, not much change happens. When half or more of the people just stop going, you might get a real re-invention. Same with the nasty Trump infection suffered at so many Protestant places. Is the necessary level of exodus going to happen either place? Nah, evidence so far suggests probably not.

  14. Grammatically and unintentionally Connelly/Arnzen admitted (above) that he is “an anti-Catholic.”

  15. Good comment. Let me add that most Catholics are OK with abortion (note the May referendum in Ireland). Also, Catholic school enrollment has declined from 5.5 million in 1965 to 2 million today, even though several states have been diverting millions of dollars to Catholic schools through vouchers and tax credits.

  16. What is the purpose of the RCC ?

    You’re dodging the question….

    All you’re responding with is Catholic propaganda….

    I repeat : What is the purpose of the RCC ?

  17. I’ll tell you who is anti-Catholic !

    The RCC priests who are raping the innocent children of the Catholics attending church and giving the church $$$$ for the honor of having their Catholic priests rape their children !

    That’s who is REALLY anti-catholic.

    Along with apologists like you who find that criminal act perfectly acceptable….

  18. Thank you for the over-the-top ranting.

    Since I have never even suggested that I find criminal acts perfectly acceptable, I can only assume that either you are confusing me with someone who gives a sh-t what you think, or you’re hallucinating.

  19. You are correct….only no one today bothers with history so they don’t know the truth of it. And most certainly they do not take the time to study the bible because they would have seen the warnings about the RCC very easily within the scripture prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. God will destroy this enterprise of Satan and all the evil will be destroyed and thrown in the Lake of Fire….forever.

  20. The RCC is an apostate church and no one should be attending it. Read Revelation 17 and 18 and you will see it there and it’s future is the Lake of Fire. Very evil enterprise, lying to people and controlling them with tyranny forever, 1500 years or more. The RCC murdered Christians during the Dark Ages and the Protestant Reformation, 50 millions. Those who do not know history are DOOMED to repeat it.

  21. Re: “The fix for this is at the pew level.” 

    You’re 100% correct about that! The Catholic laity tends to view itself as having no say in the R.C. Church’s operation, but the truth of the matter is, they possess all the power they desire over it — via the collection plate. 

    For the most part the Church is asset-rich (mostly in real estate) but cash-poor. This means it needs weekly collections in order to get by … in spite of the fact that, in the aggregate, it’s astoundingly wealthy. If the Church or any of its entities (specifically, dioceses and parishes) are starved for regular income, financial woes are inevitable. 

    The “priestly pedophilia” scandal and some sporadic reductions in income have triggered a few diocesan bankruptcies, and a few more dioceses have been forced to close parishes and sell properties, or come up with clever leasing arrangements, to avoid bankruptcies, but the cold fact is that there hasn’t been enough of this to bring the Church, overall, to its knees. That can be arranged, but first, there have to be enough lay Catholics in enough places who donate enough money every week, to trigger that kind of fiscal crisis. 

    To date that hasn’t happened, and partly the reason is because a lot of lay Catholics still donate to their own parish’s coffers due to their impression that their own parish has done nothing wrong and shouldn’t be targets. They just don’t see why they should (as they view it) “penalize” their own parish due to other parishes’, or the hierarchs’, misdeeds — and they don’t have the courage to use their own parishes’ financial condition as a lever to coerce changes in the Mother Church. They like their own priests, and maybe even their own bishops, and don’t want to inconvenience them. 

    Sadly, though, that’s precisely what they need to do — inconvenience the entire Church! A massive fiscal crisis, sufficient to force it to change, wont ensue unless lay Catholics are willing to cut off their own parishes, without regard to whether or not they think that parish has done anything wrong. (And as it turns out, a lot of the parishes which are assumed blameless, aren’t. But that’s another matter.) 

    The bottom line is, too many lay Catholics are convinced they can do nothing to change their Church. The fact is, though, that they are the only agent which can invoke the kinds of change that are needed, and moreover, that they possess the power to do so. All they need do is choose to employ that power. 

  22. Yes, I agree that the laity is only dominated by hierarchy in this day and age because it allows itself to be. I’m not Catholic, so I guess I don’t understand how hard it must be for some of them (psychologically) to either buck the systems or quit. But, bad as the abuse scandals are, we have something equally disastrous going on in Protestantism as well. Too much of it went Trumpee, meaning it does not understand what Church is for. Organized Christianity needs a lot (LOT) of work right now.

  23. And you are, what?, Pentacostal, Evangelical, HIndu, atheist? Anything? Any and all religions that I know about that think they have the right answer about God act at times horribly toward those who do not accept their ideas of the mystery that is God. Keep looking for God’s love – I don’t think you have found it yet.

  24. Just sharing truthful HISTORY. The Protestant Reformation exposed the RCC in all it’s criminal activities. Too many have forgotten that and that the RCC started the counter-reformation in response, still going on. Just facts. Telling facts and truth is not horrible. Take the log out of your own eye!?

  25. Re: “I’m not Catholic, so I guess I don’t understand how hard it must be for some of them (psychologically) to either buck the systems or quit.” 

    I don’t either. If the organization I belonged to, and supported financially, was guilty of widespread, systemic abuse of children, I wouldn’t want to be part of it. Or, if I stayed in, I’d be determined to change it. 

    Then again, I’m just a cynical, cold-hearted, godless agnostic heathen, so what can I possibly know about the sanctity of unthinking obedience? 

    Re: “But, bad as the abuse scandals are, we have something equally disastrous going on in Protestantism as well.” 

    Really, that’s not relevant. The Catholic Church — including its employees (i.e. priests and nuns), management (i.e. bishops and other hierarchs), and membership (i.e. lay Catholics) are responsible for it. What other institutions do, or don’t do, doesn’t relieve them of that obligation … at all. I get that abuse of children isn’t just a Catholic problem. I get that it happens in other Christian sects, as well as in other religions, and it even happens in non-religious settings. That concession has nothing to do with what the Catholic Church does about its own scandal, however. It simply doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference. 

    Re: “Too much of it went Trumpee, meaning it does not understand what Church is for.” 

    Many Catholics are unaware of what Catholicism actually teaches. So too are Christians of other sects often unaware of what their sect teaches. That’s not new. As for the Groper-in-Chief, he simply took advantage of 30-40 years of raging Rightwingism that raged around the country. Although this propaganda effort was initiated by evangelical Christianity (e.g. by “Moral Majority”), many of their appeals worked on Catholics too, as well as Episcopals, Orthodox and other kinds of non-evangelical Christians. 

    The Religious Right set up an infantilized voting bloc that the GiC simply absconded with, since he spoke their immature and irrational language better than those who’d worked to establish it. But really, Catholics have been part of that bloc for a long time now. In fact, some of them are hierarchs (e.g. the bishops who signed on to the Manhattan Declaration). 

    Re: “Organized Christianity needs a lot (LOT) of work right now.” 

    Of course it does! It always has. Arguably, Christianity was never intended ever to be “organized.” It had its genesis in apocalyptic Judaism. It wasn’t supposed to endure long enough to become organized! (See e.g. Mt 16:28, Mk 9:1, & Lk 9:27). Even un-organized Christianity needs a lot of work (if it can be said that such a thing exists). 

  26. The church has lost its credibility. It used to be a liberal counterbalance to all this right wingism.
    There was a class action lawsuit covering my area and the resultant awards amounted to chicken feed.
    The diocese anticipated payouts to the plaintiffs and hid money. They were caught in the asset hiding and their attendant lies in a subsequent lawsuit in another diocese in the state. There needs to be some kind of way for us to further collect on what was hidden from the court.

  27. We just had midterm elections in which it is said that 75% of White Evangelicals (self-described “born again” Protestants—-several denominations) voted for Republican candidates for the House of Representatives—a national election measurement. This is down from the 81% of White Evangelicals who reportedly voted for Donald Trump in 2016.

    Most people don’t know that if we could have held the White Evangelicals to only 75% Republican voting in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania in 2016 that Trumpism would have been skipped. It was that close. But the damage done to America by these “Every-word-of-the-Bible-is-true” people is incalculable and irreversible for a very long time.
    This is why I compare it to the Catholic abuse scandals. The White Protestant Evangelicals have hurt the country and the world WORSE even than all the pedophile priests put together.

  28. Your ridiculous fundamentalism is the problem here.

  29. Funny, it’s just what Catholics of a certain type say about protestants, or Mormons, or SDA, or JW, or MCC.

    but wait!!!! 50 Millions? I guess atheists aren’t the world’s all time biggest murderers, as so many hyper Christians aver. Throw in the Protestant murders of Catholics, and surely, you have just proved that atheists are amateurs.

    Those who do not know history are DOOMED to repeat it.

  30. LOL You are ignorant of what fundamentalism is by saying that. I am not a fundamentalist.

  31. I’m so glad to see you are still writing. I hope the fire was not near you. God bless you

  32. It’s very nice of you to say so, but upon looking over my post, I can’t find anything I said that isn’t true.

    Perhaps you would be so kind as to point it out?

  33. Perhaps you could explain what you are. you’re not Catholic, for example. Or you could be, because I do recognize that there are Catholics who think Francis is a socialist—communist—liberal.

  34. Thanks! Not so much anymore because there is so much divisiveness, or something of that order. We had a huge fire a couple of months ago where many of our friends had to evacuate but all homes were saved. We don’t have as many big trees here on the mountains so it was less devastating. It lasted for days, lots of ash and smoke!
    The fires up North are horrible and have very questionable origins etc.
    The world is sure a mess! God have mercy on us. May He make His face to shine upon you! God bless you too, Friend!

  35. I grew up Catholic so very familiar with that. I am a Christian, reformed, in no denomination at this time. Bible alone is my belief. Currently looking into a reformed church which is extremely good as it seems. RCC is an apostate church.

  36. LOL Are you prescient? I have never been fundamentalist….I study the bible from the reformed protestant/puritan perspective. Fundamentalism was started as a reaction to something early in the 20th century, forget the reason right now. Have a nice day!

  37. This isn’t difficult. Hillary beat Hillary, Abrams beat Abrams, etc.

    The Democrats that won it, they won it. The Democrats that lost, they just plain beat themselves.

    (Bye Bye Beto! And do remember, Texas don’t like you Closet Commies a-skulking around the Ballot Box!!)

  38. Too long, too much to explain. History is more involved but your understanding seems clouded by revised history. Too sarcastic too. Everything you said isn’t true.

  39. This isn’t difficult. You write all your replies to me while you are stoned, drunk, possibly both. It is the obvious explanation of your enthusiasm for logic which is not logic.

  40. You’re a fundamentalist. If you’re attempting to connect current historical events with a fairy tale book like “Revelation”, then you’re a goddamned fundamentalist. Have a nice day!

  41. Only thing I know about the fire is what national media says. What do you mean questionable origin of the fires?

    How is the atmosphere where you are? Can you breathe ok?
    I’m glad you’re doing well 🙂 Did you see LA Marzulli lost his house and everything they owned. I watch his videos sometimes on youtube. He had to actually stay in a Fema camp set up for fire victims. So sad.
    Tons of people still missing. California is in a terrible mess.. from Typhus, feces and needles in the streets, floods, land slides, droughts, fires… you would think somebody was trying to get through to California huh??? hmm

    When I was a girl California people were the salt of the earth.. HARD working people with the fear of God and very family oriented. Now .. I don’ even know what it is. My friend visited there this fall and said they wear shorts that look like a belt with a lion cloth.. shows their butt cheeks all the way up to their waste. That’s just so sexualized … and kids see that! Happy Thanksgiving to you Lincon. So glad your family is safe. God bless you too sister in the Lord!

  42. You absolutely have no idea what you are talking about!! LOL Ignorant assumptions is all you have. Take a chill pill too.

  43. Wow! CA is in a bad way but mostly it is normal everywhere still in appearances. It is the gov’t, the commies and Hollyweird have too much power to do whatever they want. I never have seen what your friend saw as far as that kind of clothing but I never go to LA or anywhere like it. I live in a more conservative area, inland. Orange Co., the beach, used to be conservative too, and for the first time ever went blue. It is very upscale there, very costly place to live so we moved here.
    There is lots and lots of talk and videos about DEW’S and bad management of forests as the cause of said fires. I underline dew’s though as the real question! The train being built follows the same path as the fires…getting rid of all the people/houses which are in it’s path. That is the reports on FB. Agenda 21 in full force is what people are saying.
    I have watched several LA Marzulli videos and didn’t know of his loss! The Governor has blood on his hands. The Left has truly taken over. The population is not all Left though. Very many illegals vote and elections are not fair and legal. There is not time or space to write all the terrible problems which have been created by the Left in CA.
    On a better note, we found a new, excellent church to attend! It is far away, 45 min drive, but worth it in every way! It is growing, faithful to bible and been in existence since 1959. I am beyond thrilled to have found it…by listening to Paul Flynn, from Ireland! He interviewed this guy, Scott Clark, a writer, scholar, on his show…this is the church he attends. He is a Professor at a bible college. Brilliant. Very brilliant people in this church! It is Dutch Reformed…I had to learn about them and they hold to what I have learned and believe……scripture!
    Hope you are well too. Friend! Have a happy Thanksgiving. Being thankful that we are saved by the blood of the Lamb! Everything else pales.
    Oh, my hubby had a triple by-pass at the end of Sept. He is doing well, 2 months later, but we have huge bills. I pray the Lord sorts it out for us in some way. It was a miracle that he had no heart attack. Praise and glory to God, the giver of all good gifts! God bless you and your Mom!

  44. Thank you for that information about California. I didn’t know agenda 21 was suspected.. I guess over 1,000 are still missing. I wonder if CA will buy up all that land to keep it out of private ownership. If it was agenda 21 I bet they do.
    Very glad your husband is well. God is faithful! I will pray about the bills. The Lord will work something out as you said! And glad about your church. I am still working 7 days a week and can’t go to church but I read the Bible at home every day and pray and follow Jack Hibbs on youtube, JD Farag, John Haller, Jan Markell radio, Amir Tsarfati, and Pastor Charles Lawson all on youtube. Blessings to you and yours – sister in Christ.

  45. Interpreting the Book of Revelation by inserting the RCC into it is the ignorant assumption here. No, I won’t chill. Fundies like you are what makes this life hell for so many. You go to hell.

  46. Have a lovely Thanksgiving because we are truly thankful to the Lord!! Please listen to Paul Flynn…go to his reformed eschatology! You will discover a lot of truth there. He is a gifted young teacher and very credible and honorable…more than anyone I have come across. He is now studying to become a pastor too. My friends have really learned so much from him. It is so nice to connect with you again. I THINK I HAVE LEARNED MORE FROM HIM THAN ANY OTHER..and Warren Smith has much to share as well. You may not think so at first but his insight is amazing because new age will be very important issue in the near future. We must know and understand the devices of the devil.
    Yes, Agenda 21 comes into focus here with a real example in CA.
    God bless you and may His face shine upon you!

  47. Oh! I have been getting banned and comments removed from web sites too! I am not sure why though. Still causing a fuss if I need to. LOL Happy thanksgiving again!

  48. If we’re not on their naughty list it’s not from lack of trying 😛
    Happy Thanksgiving to you too 🙂

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