• Ed of Ct.

    Jesuit order at Colleges Like Georgetown, Fordham , DePaul,Fairfield, ,Marquette and sorry excuses in California alleged Catholic colleges should be reformed or Abolished..

  • Adam Rasmussen

    I oppose abortion, but a group of men only protesting abortion by holding a sign that says “purity is the answer” is exactly what is wrong with the pro-life movement today. Abortion should be opposed to protect the innocent in our throwaway culture, not because some men still want to control women’s “purity” through legislation and shame.

  • G Key

    What a woman legally and rightfully does with her body is neither the choice nor the business of anyone else. Not ours. Not a religion’s. And not the government’s.

    A fetus may be a potential person, but a woman already is a person, an independent adult with her own life to live, according to her beliefs and values, not anyone else’s.

    Now, it might be different if someone were to extend an offer to pay that woman for her limited work duties and maternal leave, and for medical costs and transportation, parental costs (including surrogate parenting wages in the event she wasn’t ready, willing, or able to perform parental duties), from birth through the child’s 20th year (including food, clothing, medical services, school and college, room and board, automobile and fuel, maintenance, insurance, and all other child care costs), plus physical and emotional pain and suffering incentives, payment for loss of professional and other opportunities during all those years, inconvenience fees, and whatever additional remuneration she might reasonably demand for agreeing to do all these things, including catering to someone else’s personal beliefs and values instead of following her own equally sacred and inviolate beliefs and values, just so that particular someone could feel better about what that woman did with her own life.

    Yes, it might be different then. But only if she were to accept the offer.

    And that would be just as much her exclusive choice as are contraception and abortion.

  • bbeck

    Hmmm. 3,562 lives die from abortion each day? That’s 1,300,000+ a year. Wow, we living humans are really busy killing life. That’s a lot. But I hate to point out, is it not what we living humans do? We kill. We kill before life is started, or we kill it afterwards. 3,562 per day? That’s nothing. 22,000+ living, breathing children die each day. That’s 8,000,000+ children each year. If a child survives birth, and survives pestilence, we try and kill them intentionally. And no god(s) or God or Jesus, the faithful, prayer warriors, Solomon, has ever stopped it. And protesters? You’re just wasting your time. The future is here Opps, there goes another 25,562 lives and children for Thursday 21st of April, 2016, and Friday, another 25,562, Saturday another 25,562….let women abort if they want to, politicians get lost.

  • Fig Newton

    A fetus is NOT a potential person. A fetal heartbeat starts at 18 days. A fetus IS already a person.

  • Spuddie

    A fetus is not a person at all. Since its survival is entirely at the will of the mother whose body is required to keep it alive, its not your business either. It is hers and hers alone. It makes no difference whether you consider it alive, reads 4 languages or is the next messiah. As long as it lives in a woman’s womb, it is her decision to keep it, never yours.

  • Spuddie

    Its always interesting that the word “innocent” is thrown around as a signifier of concern for life. It is implied or explicitly contrasted with the existence of the mother who is somehow guilty, dirty or so shameful in her activities that somehow she is ignored or not worthy of consideration.

    The whole anti-abortion POV is based on the ridiculous notion that someone’ claim to moral high ground and superiority automatically has a right to intervene into the personal, private and intimate decisions of others. Its a very narcissistic and arrogant view. One where one relies on hysterical appeals to ignore relevant issues.

  • Mark Davis

    It should be mostly pink flags because of gender selected abortions.

  • Spuddie

    Riiiight and when someone murders abortion doctors, bombs clinics or shoots innocent bystanders near a Planned Parenthood location, it is merely an expression of God’s wrath. Its telling that threats and hysterics are a vital part of the anti-abortion POV.

  • Mark Davis

    Learn what purity means, It’s not legislated or controlling or shaming others. It’s about SELF control male and female.

  • Ticked Parent

    Ronald Reagan wrote in 1983:
    “Abortion concerns not just the unborn child, it concerns every one of us. The English poet, John Donne, wrote: ‘. . . any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.’
    “We cannot diminish the value of one category of human life — the unborn — without diminishing the value of all human life.

  • dave

    This is what happens when the hierarchy doesn’t act when the university allows a guest like Planned parenthood and others who promote anti-catholic teachings. If the top brass doesn’t think it’s important why would these students? sadly, that’s the message being sent

  • Spuddie

    The message being that the free flow of ideas is more important than indoctrination when it comes to education.

  • Buckwheat3

    To make a statement like that is showing your ignorance to who she is and represents. If anybody needs help it would be you for printing inflammatory rhetoric.

  • jehanne

    A total of eight people have died because of anti-abortion crazies since 1973. That’s enough for you to justify the killing of millions of children each year. And I know of not one Christian body or denomination that did not condemn those who murdered those 8 abortion clinic workers. Still you stand tall accusing Christianity of advocating for such sin. Sorry, wrong.

  • jehanne

    We are echoing God’s word and desires, not those of mere mortal men. Take up the issue with HIM.
    We are not in the business of “controlling” women’s bodies, we are in the business of protecting the innocents. A parent has a moral and heavenly obligation to care for their children. Or do you think a parent has the right to discard or abuse the children they conceived?

  • Spuddie

    Actually the count is much higher. Inflammatory and threatening rhetoric against people involved in abortion is typical. As is indifference to violence against them.

    I have yet to see anyone in the anti abortion crowd genuinely concerned with actual born people or pregnant women at all. Women are typically ignored, minimized, slutshamed or denigrated as a matter of course. When your concern for people is only during the nine months of gestation, it’s impossible to consider their position “pro-life” or even anything but hysterics.

    Christianity has far more “sins” than I have mentioned. But indifference/hostility to people who are not strict adherents to its arbitrary rules and directives is chief among them.

  • Spuddie

    You are a raging self righteous narcissist who has no regard for others. Someone who uses religion to excuse trespasses and attack on people. Someone who falls under the slippery religious morality that all means can be justified if one claims its god’s will.

    God may excuse your behavior, but our laws need not.

  • Mrs. Harris

    It’s really great that Abbey Johnson was invited to speak by the pro life students on the same night. Bravo to them for standing up for life.

  • kirbette

    I’m so sick of this pretense of calling the choice to abort a child a personal, intimate matter. (And sorry the govt is involved. That’s why we who oppose abortion want our tax dollars to stop being given to them!) By the way, should it be my choice to kill my parents if they get to be too much of a strain on my time or pocketbook?. That sounds like a personal, intimate family decision. This is moronic. To invite the PP President to a Catholic institution to spew her platitudes to try to obfuscate the fact that she advocates for termination of a child in the womb by any number of horrific means is to me a grave sin. Yes a sin. Because when you’re college age and you see that those in charge of this Catholic university treat this like it’s any other issue, you get the message loud and clear. It’s a wink and a nod that it’s ok to think abortion is ok. And it is not… The fruit of the evil one is confusion, and it is being spread here…

  • Helene

    Only God has the right to take a life as only God gives a life. And the child in the womb is another person, it is not a part of the woman’s body in the same way as her heart or liver. Wherever abortion is condoned, life becomes cheap, that’s why euthanasia and other forms of murder soon follow suit. Who knows how many future doctors, scientists, inventors, teachers, musicians, artists and other gifts to humanity were aborted through this government-funded genocide.

  • jehanne

    You can argue your law with God when that may take place.
    Our differences do not seem all that vague. You apparently do not believe God exists or if He does He has not communicated any clear messages to humanity we need to take notice in. Either that, or you simply do not care what God is saying.
    So I hold no misconceptions we will ever come to any agreement on this.

  • Adam

    I have yet to see “threatening rhetoric” against pro choice individuals. In fact, I see the opposite. It’s also unfortunate that you have yet to see anyone who is pro life express genuine concern with pregnant women, as I see this every day when I deal with the local pregnancy center who provides free counseling, clothing, infant items to those who are expecting, and also free counseling and support to those women who have undergone an abortion.

    Christianity does have “sins.” We are depraved, sinful, hurting people who strive to be like Christ. However, for you to claim Christianity is hostile to others is short-minded at best, seeing as Christians are some of the few providing services to the war-torn and forgotten parts of the world.

  • jehanne

    What is the count, since you say it is much higher? Or is that just another fraudulent defense?
    So Christians are not concerned with actual born people or pregnant women you say? Does it even bother you that you are so full of baloney when trying to defend your arguments? That was as inane as you can get. You want facts about that? I did not think so.
    Now you are also trying to defuse our honorable efforts because “Christians are sinners” too. Well, when you find any humans who are not sinners would you please let us know? Because God could surely use those rare birds, too.

  • Spuddie

    Of course Christians are not concerned with anyone but their own. It’s why they mix charitable efforts with prosletyzing, use religious faith to justify various forms of discrimination and oppression and show blatant disregard for religious freedom in expecting laws to follow their sectarian agendas.

    We wouldn’t be having this conversation if Christians felt capable of respect for others and personal boundaries.

  • Adam

    G Key,
    Let’s deconstruct your message:
    1. A fetus is a person. I’m not sure what a potential person is – you’re either living and breathing or you’re not.
    2. The provision of medical care, child care, child food, clothing and medical services are available to those struggling with pregnancy, and largely through Christian organizations. Right here in my town there is an organization that provides all that, free of charge to those who are struggling. Plus, there is free counseling for the emotional pain and suffering caused by having an abortion. It is available.
    3. I agree with you, none of us should cater to someone else’s personal beliefs and values,but we should cater to the code of morality that is within each of us.

    There are options for those who are struggling with the choice of abortion and there is help.

  • Spuddie

    See Fig Newton’s statement above. It was inviting violence upon the head of PP as divine retribution. The crisis clinics the anti abortion crowd set up deliberately lie to pregnant women, attempt to frustrate their choices and offer little but token gestures. The politicians who try to ban abortion are same ones who attack social services, women’s equality, organized labor, and public education. Their concern for those most likely to consider abortion are nil. These politicians enjoy the support of self righteous Christian folk like yourself. Your show of concern for pregnant women is merely self serving, transitory and in the end phony.

  • Spuddie

    1. A person is a being capable of autonomous existence with distinct physical and legal rights which can be asserted separately from any other human being. A fetus only exists at the will of its mother. Therefore it has no distinct rights or existence until birth.

    2. Momentary charity does not change basic economic conditions. If you want to force women to give birth, it would be moral to provide for the entire existence of the child.

    3. If you believe what you wrote, you would respect personal boundaries and intimate decisions of women in regards to their own pregnancy. You would not oppose abortion per se or seek to ban it. You would simply nod in self righteous disapproval.

  • Spuddie

    I am arguing the law with you. I guess you are displaying the narcissism I was talking about. Claiming to be or to speak for your god.

  • Warren

    In failing to dismiss its “pro-choice” students, Georgetown University is complicit in putting the souls of unborn babies in hell. Shame!

  • Edward Silha

    Some of the worst atrocities the human race has ever experienced have been perpetrated in the name of a god. Claiming to known the mind of god allows people to justify any action they deem necessary. Claiming that it is necessary to take action to enforce the “word” of an all powerful god is ludicrous given that such a god (theoretically) could take any action it chose.
    Besides, moral pronouncements coming from an organization that has a history or promoting war (crusades), torture, fraud (selling indulgences), pedophilia and burning people alive have little import.
    There is a risk to life and limb involved in pregnancy. The decision to accept this risk cannot morally be assumed by anyone other than the woman directly affected.

  • Edward Silha

    Which god among all that are proposed to exist by various groups has clearly communicated his/her/their message?

  • jehanne

    Thanks for listening. But you have more than demonstrated to me that you are not capable at this time of having a cogent exchange of ideas. (IMO) I wish you well.

  • jehanne

    Where have you been all your life? Now you ask? The empirical evidence for the Judeo-Christian G-d is legion. Sorry I cannot take the time but there are thousands of event, historical proofs, documented unexplainable miracles, the lives of saints, and books of reason that would help. It is your free will to pursue or ignore.

  • edddoerr

    Georgetown U is to be commended. It represents mainstream Catholics, while Cardinal Wuerl stands for the celibate (?) misogynist clique that has mis-run the church for centuries. Cecile Richards represents the thinking of most Catholics while the bishops are stuck in the Middle Ages. — Edd Doerr

  • edddoerr

    Ticked confuses developing fetuses with persons. His thinking is not based on either the Bible or the most up-to-date thinking by Catholic theologians.

  • edddoerr

    Just since the Vatican’s ban on contraception in 1968 there have been 1.5 BILLION abortions worldwide. If the Vatican really cares about reducing the number of abortions, and if it is concerned about climate change (fueled by overpopulation) it will reverse its perverse ban on contraception – soon. — Edd Doerr

  • edddoerr

    Personhood requires a functioning brain, which doesn’t exist until some time after 28-32 weeks of gestation; 90% of abortions are in the first 13 weeks, 99% by 20 weeks, those after are only for serious medical reasons. Adam’s theological education is woefully lacking.

  • edddoerr

    Combine ignorance
    with arrogance and — Voila! —
    the anti-choicers.

  • edddoerr

    Weak theology and even weaker awareness of science.

  • edddoerr

    Adam seems to be willfully uninformed.

  • edddoerr

    Spuddie is spot-on.

  • Helene

    A child in his/her mother’s womb has a separate DNA from the mother. That’s not theology, that’s science.

  • edddoerr

    What errant nonsense.

  • edddoerr

    Adam obviously cares little about the rights of conscience and religious liberty of women. If he could get pregnant he would sing a different song.

  • edddoerr

    Where exactly did God condemn abortion?

  • Spuddie

    There was far less of an exchange of ideas than a self righteous harangue I responded to. You also felt the need to misrepresent facts. Christians certainly encourage inflammatory rhetoric against abortion providers and then run away when people act on them. They had no trouble lying about PP or putting out defamatory statements about them. Feel free to continue with the huffing.

  • Spuddie

    Shorter kitbette: I am sick and tired of having to respect the lives of people who do not do as I say. I don’t want to hear any views but my own.

  • edddoerr

    Read your Bible. Gen 1:27 and 2:7 put the beginning of personhood at birth, at the first breath.

  • Spuddie

    A fetus can’t survive outside the womb, therefore one cannot protect it without attacking it’s mother. That is more relevant science.

  • edddoerr

    Does Jehanne live in the Twilight Zone?

  • edddoerr

    DNA does not make a person; a functioning brain does. So said DNA co-discoverer Francis Crick in an amicus brief to the Supreme Court.

  • Helene

    Are you equating delivering a baby to ‘attacking its mother’? And you claim that is relevant science?

  • Warren

    Errant? “The souls of those who die in original sin only go immediately into hell” Cantatae Domino, Council of Florence. Nonsence? Denial of it’s dogma puts you out of the Catholic Church.

  • truthseeker

    Of course a fetus is a developing human being in the mother’s womb and aborting this human being is murder. Those who engage in the diabolical practice of abortion are desperate to come up with any excuse possible to soothe their guilty consciences for the guilt of disposing of their unwanted love children — it is best summed up as cognitive dissonance.

    The ancient romans had their own evil practice of disposing of their unwanted love children after they were born and also practiced cognitive dissonance — they called it exposure and of course similar to some commenters, here, promoting abortion, the ancient romans must have also convinced themselves these newly born children were not human.

    The ancient Jews also had their own diabolical method of cognitive dissonance in which they wantonly disposed of their unwanted love babies — they sacrificed these living human babies on burning grills to the false gods moloch and baal.
    See Ezekiel 16:20-21 — “And you took your sons and your daughters, whom you had borne to me, and these you sacrificed to them to be devoured. Were your whorings so small a matter that you slaughtered my children and delivered them up as an offering by fire to them?”
    See 2 Kings 17:17-18 — “And they burned their sons and their daughters as offerings and used divination and omens and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger. Therefore the Lord was very angry with Israel and removed them out of his sight. None was left but the tribe of Judah only.”
    See Psalm 106:37-38 — “They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons; they poured out innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was polluted with blood.”
    See Jeremiah 7:31 — “And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.”
    See Ezekiel 20:31 — “When you present your gifts and offer up your children in fire, you defile yourselves with all your idols to this day. And shall I be inquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, declares the Lord God, I will not be inquired of by you.”

  • Spuddie

    I am equating your position with attacking mothers. Your desire to protect fetuses really means a desire to attack a woman’s choice to keep a pregnancy. You have minimized or ignored the woman’s decision to the point you can pretend it either doesn’t exist or is not relevant.

    It doesn’t mean anything that a fetus has a heartbeat or fingers. Until it is born or capable of being delivered, it lives solely because it’s mother wills it so. It has no independent existence and it’s mother not only exists but must be considered.

  • Thomas Aquinas

    Talk about an opinionated comment.

  • Thomas Aquinas

    Can we say then that a person on life support is not a person either as their survival depends on that machine?

  • Thomas Aquinas

    Please supply proof for your comments. All you are doing is expressing your own opinion and trying to pretend that it is fact.

  • edddoerr

    The real Thomas Aquinas did not believe in personhood at conception.

  • QOH

    PP knows these babies are “persons”; they refer to them as their patients… At conception when a woman becomes pregnant her body is a temple to two persons. It’s a silly argument when you think about it… She no more has the right to dispose of the child then she does to do it harm so that it is born impaired mentally or physically.

  • edddoerr

    What kind of deity would send an innocent “soul” to eternal perdition? That is just sick.

  • Warren

    The kind of deity who said “unless one is born again of water and the Holy Ghost he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

  • cestusdei

    It’s like a Jewish school giving an ovation to a National Socialist speaker.

  • truthseeker

    Actually you are completely wrong and you must know it, as you are trying to sow divisions by spreading falsehoods. See Bible quotations, below, which verify that the Bible explicitly supports the obvious fact that the developing embryo/fetus in the mother’s womb is a human being.

    Psalm 139:13-16:
    “For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

    Psalm 127:3:
    “Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward.”

    Galatians 1:15:
    “But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,”

    Isaiah 44:2:
    “Thus says the Lord who made you, who formed you from the womb and will help you: Fear not, O Jacob my servant, Jeshurun whom I have chosen.”

    Genesis 1:27:
    “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”

  • truthseeker

    Even Hillary Clinton has this one right! On Sunday morning’s “Meet the Press,” presidential candidate Hillary Clinton expressed a very unique, contradictory stance on abortion. She stated the obvious, that the fetus is human, in the following quote:

    “Well, under our laws currently, that is not something that exists. The unborn person doesn’t have constitutional rights.” Hillary Clinton

  • truthseeker

    The common sense response to this illogical remark is that the adult should be held responsible for his or her immoral actions, not the innocent child.

  • c.g.

    Yet Reagan was so “against” abortions that he signed one of the most liberal abortion bills while he was gov of Calif:

    ” Honest discussions of Reagan’s record on the abortion issue
    admit that as California governor he signed into law a liberalization of
    abortion that led to an explosion of abortions in the nation’s largest
    state. Reagan critics and supporters alike recognize this fact — one
    that is particularly tough to swallow for staunch pro-lifers

    So was he just the typical GOP hypocrite? Say one thing….do another. I’d vote for HYPOCRITE.

  • c.g.

    Yet Reagan was so “against” abortions that he signed one of the most liberal abortion bills while he was gov of Calif:

    ” Honest discussions of Reagan’s record on the abortion issue
    admit that as California governor he signed into law a liberalization of
    abortion that led to an explosion of abortions in the nation’s largest
    state. Reagan critics and supporters alike recognize this fact — one
    that is particularly tough to swallow for staunch pro-lifer.

    So was he just the typical GOP hypocrite? Say one thing….do another. I’d vote for HYPOCRITE.

  • truthseeker

    Another outright lie — official studies actually show that artificial contraception actually greatly increases the number of surgical abortions.

    The following excerpt is from a study, entitled, “The Impact of Contraceptive Failure and Unintended Births and Induced Abortion,” and undertaken by USAID (United States Agency for International Development).

    “Contraceptive failure contributes substantially to raising levels of unintended births and induced abortion, as the vast majority of contraceptive failures result in either one or the other outcome (Cleland and Ali 2004; Trussell, Vaughn, and Stanford 1999). Although rates vary by country, large proportions of unintended pregnancies result from contraceptive failure. In the United States 48 percent of all unintended pregnancies and 54 percent of induced abortions were the result of contraceptive failure (Finer and Henshaw 2006). In France, 65 percent of unintended pregnancies result from contraceptive failure (Moreau et al. 2007), while in Egypt and Jordan approximately one-third of births result from unintended pregnancies (Roudi-Fahmi and Monem 2010). Proportions are higher in countries with higher levels of contraceptive use, as the proportion of unintended pregnancies that are due to contraceptive failure is directly linked to the proportion of the population using contraception: in a theoretical population with a 100 percent contraceptive prevalence rate, 100 percent of unintended pregnancies would be due to contraceptive failure.”

    (Study available online, search for study using partial title — “The Impact of Contraceptive Failure”)

  • edddoerr

    You obviously did not read Gen 1:27 carefully. “Image of God” does not refer t flesh, blood and DNA but to whatever persons share with the deity — namely, consciousness, which science shows it not possible until allowed by brain development. You also overlooked Gen 2:7, which puts personhood at the first breath, also not possible until after viability at 23-24 weeks.

  • edddoerr

    Does any serious Christian today buy that? Only a monster deity would do that to billions of humans.

  • c.g.

    So some of the big shots are upset that Georgetown is open to other views on subjects? I thought that was one of the main reasons why people go to college….to learn about other views, other cultures, other information that is outside of the world of the student. And no student was FORCED to go to this speech…..I guess the Catholics still want to continue to control the message….maybe they need to concentrate on the abuse and cover up of their own “godly men” who targeted young girls and boys for their sexual enjoyment.

  • Arbustin

    Were any of those murders committed by someone other than a self-identified Christian (you can skip the No True Scotsman argument at this time)? Spare us the half-hearted “condemnations” of violence by the people who call us baby-killers. What exactly do you think is going to happen with rhetoric like that?

  • Arbustin

    Are you seriously asserting that there’s no “threatening rhetoric” against pro-choice individuals?

  • truthseeker

    According to your own personal interpretation. The quote I gave from Genesis means what it says. You can twist Bible passages to meet you own personal view of morality; however, the plain readings of scripture, the Word of God, verifies that God values human life from conception until death.

  • Arbustin

    All those children had already been born. Cognitive dissonance indeed.

  • truthseeker

    No, you are wrong, the worst atrocities in the known history of the world have been perpetuated by atheists (e.g.; mao; stalin; lenin), satanic occultists (e.g.; hitler) and satanic abortionists (e.g., margaret sanger; cecil richards; etc.). Most surprisingly, you will never hear abortionists, atheists and satanists attack the genocidal atrocities resulting from the worship of the false gods/goddesses of their satanic atheistic religions, such as the sadistic mass murderers — joseph stalin, adolf hitler, mao tse-tung, margaret sanger, cecil richards; etc. ”

    The Christian Church is perfect in Christ — the atrocities you speak of in the Christian Church were in fact perpetuated by freemasons, atheists, satanists, occultists, etc., — enemies of the Church that infiltrated the Church to destroy it. Because of free will, God allows this to happen; however, Jesus also warned his followers that enemies would infiltrate His Church and to be on guard for when it would happen. In this respect, Jesus, as the Word of God, clearly warned his followers there would be false teachers, false prophets, wolves in sheep’s clothing and, of course, there was the betrayer Judas right out of the starting gate.

  • carrotcakeman

    No valid comparison there. The person on life support was born. The US Supreme Court says life begins at birth.

  • carrotcakeman

    A fetus is not a child.

  • carrotcakeman

    A fetus is not a person.

  • Spuddie

    An appeal to authority and quote mining doesn’t help you. A person is a legal definition. I am not saying a fetus isn’t human, it just isn’t a person. An autonomous being capable of independent physical and legal existence. As long as its in a womb, any alleged rights are contingent and dependent on its mother’s.
    Where fetus worshipping anti abortion people go horribly wrong is in pretending the woman’s will is not absolutely necessary in any talk of a fetus. So instead you ignore her, denigrate her or deny her inherent rights to decide what goes on with her body. It is the height of arrogance and narcissism to believe you have a right to force ykurcway into decisions where you do not belong.

  • Thomas Aquinas

    “Inflammatory rhetoric against abortion providers…”. Well those poor little baby killers. They had their feelings hurt. Do you think that it is as painful for them as it is for the babies they are killing! If you’re going to murder babies then you need to be prepared for “inflammatory rhetoric”!

  • carrotcakeman

    Anyone who seeks to misuse the Bible to deprive others of their rights as Americans will conveniently only mention the parts of the Bible they think advances their political agenda.

  • Thomas Aquinas

    Sorry, but both rely on something or someone else to keep them alive. And do you really think that I care when a secular body such as the USSC says life begins.

  • truthseeker

    Your reasoning is circular in nature and also an ad hominem attack– your can never win your arguments through these faulty forms of reasoning. I made an analogy, showing that throughout history those who engage in murdering their own human children — whether in the womb before birth or after birth engage in the same practice of cognitive dissonance in order to soothe their guilty conscience for having murdered their own children.

    The only hope for truly soothing your consciences is to accept Jesus as your savior, repenting of your sins and getting baptized (enroll in the Right of Christian Initiation for Adults in the Catholic Church). If already a Christian, seek counseling with a priest and go to confession (if not a Catholic Christian, also enroll in the Right of Christian Initiation for Adults in the Catholic Church).

  • Spuddie

    3 were killed in the Colorado incident last November. Wikipedia counts 7 murders in the US in the 90’s alone. You are simply trolling.

  • Spuddie

    Is a machine another person with their own destiny rights and autonomy? Nope. A person on life support also can have a proxy to represent themselves (DNR orders, Living Wills) without attacking rights of any other individual. Same is never true for a fetus. You cannot represent a fetus without attacking it’s mother.

    Analogy fail on your part.

  • Thomas Aquinas

    And since roe over 55 million babies have been aborted in this country alone. You are the one that is simply trolling.

  • Spuddie

    Not babies. Babies are born. Fetuses die all the time in the womb. So I guess your God is the worst killer of all. The fact that you can’t tell the difference between born and unborn means either you are ignore or just dishonest.

  • Spuddie

    Well up yours as well you self righteous fetus worshiper. You can’t be bothered to care about born people so your feigned worry about the unborn is worthless. Why bother actually caring about people when you can for e women to obey your will.

  • truthseeker

    The Catholic Church follows a speculative, unofficial teaching that unbaptized children and aborted human babies would go the Limbo of the Infants (as they are invincibly ignorant of personal sin while still being bound by original sin) — this is not heaven and also they would perpetually feel no pain and the indirect love of God.

  • truthseeker

    Here is the mainstream true Catholic theological position of what happens to unbaptized children and unborn human babies at death. The Catholic Church follows a speculative, unofficial teaching that unbaptized children and aborted human babies would go the Limbo of the Infants (as they are invincibly ignorant of personal sin while still being bound by original sin) — this is not heaven and also they would perpetually feel no pain and the indirect love of God.

  • Thomas Aquinas

    “Up yours”! How mature you pro-abortion people are.

  • Thomas Aquinas

    Now why am I not surprised. You’re an uncivil atheist. That explains everything.

  • truthseeker

    Your point is self-contradictory, as all humans, including unborn humans, are persons. Moreover, the definition of “Person” in the Merriam-Webster Dictionary is —– “a human being.” Also of great concern is that all young human children cannot take care of themselves after birth so according to you this group of young children would also not be considered “persons”.

  • Spuddie

    No they are not. A baby can be cared for by any human being on the planet. Only a mothers body keeps a fetus alive. A baby’s existence is not contingent on any unique individual. In fact many babies are born to mothers who die in the leaders. If a pregnant woman dies, so does her fetus. Your inability to distinguish born from unborn is dishonest.

    Until it is born, nobody but the mother even has to care whether it is human or not. It is only get will which keeps it alive. Your desire to take control of her and interject into her personal autonomy shows both arrogance and a disregard for life. Nobody has to care if you think it’s human or a lesson because you share none of the burdens in maintaining a fetus’s existence. You don’t have to like her decisions. You have no part in them. That is just your ego coming out here.

  • Spuddie

    And you are a hysterical fetus worshiper who thinks he has a right to make decisions for all women. You want civility, keep your nose out of the personal and intimate decisions of others. Stop the delusion that your belief in God entitles you to force everyone to act as you want them to.

    But you don’t want civility. So you don’t get it.

  • Spuddie

    Yep. Just like calling abortion baby murder. Or the whiny sense of entitlement you think exists where all women must submit to your will because you think yourself allegedly morally superior.

  • Warren

    Correct! Unofficial speculation on what hell consists of.

  • Arbustin

    How is it either circular reasoning or an ad hominem attack? You’re the one accusing others of cognitive dissonance. Were you engaging in ad hominems? You can state until the cows come home that a fetus has the same ethical and legal status as a born person. Thank God most Americans disagree with you.
    Btw, there’s nothing wrong with my conscience and I definitely won’t be converting to Catholicism. Your proselytization is duly noted and rejected.

  • FAM22

    Some of the debaters on this thread have no sense of intellectual honesty. It matters not what the US Supreme Court says about when a person has rights. Why? We know this because of the Court’s prior history concerning how it has interpreted the Constitution throughout the history of this country. The legacy of Dred Scott tells us that we are fools to look to the judicial system as the ultimate arbiter of humanity or personhood. Biology (i.e. science) and our consciences tell us that which we need to know: that an unborn child is no less human and no less a “person” than anyone else. We do not need the US Supreme Court, or any other body, to tell us who should live and who should die based upon a set of “rights” that society adjusts when it becomes convenient to do so. Such “rights” are not rights at all- they are merely permissions- and we must all therefore hope and pray that our “permission” to live does not also expire at the whim of a fickle society.

    As for a woman having the “right” to decide if that person should continue to exist, this is also a false premise. Without any voice or representation of the will of the person whose life is being ended, all we have done is again set up a system of trading in human life that is exponentially worse than the slavery that once existed here before the Civil War. I will accept the premise that a woman has the “right” to end the life of her unborn child when someone can show me that she also has the power to create that life in the first place. Until then, she, and we, should yield to the one real Creator who made the choice that the unborn child should exist in the first place.

  • truthseeker

    Your bifurcation of a fetus into human/person is a strawman and is illogical because a human is a person. You are clearly looking for any reason to condone murdering human babies in the womb that are also persons in the womb.

  • truthseeker

    According to your own personal opinion.

  • truthseeker

    A fetus is human and a person.

  • truthseeker

    I made a general statement attacking no one personally. When you attacked me, personally, by saying (wrongly) I was engaging in cognitive dissonance through my arguments you engaged in an ad hominem.

    You also engaged in circular reasoning by ignoring my analogy between parents from past history who murdered their children through exposure and human sacrifice and modern-day parents who murder their children through abortion — both parental groups clearly engaged/engage in cognitive dissonance in that they both denied/deny the human baby/child was/is human in order to soothe their consciences for having murdered their own human offspring.

    Additionally, it does not matter what most Americans think, it only matters what God thinks. Finally, at least you were warned and I will be praying for you.

  • Thomas Aquinas

    So 55 million does not bother you?

  • Thomas Aquinas

    I’ll pray a rosary for you.

  • carrotcakeman

    Sorry, no. Please stop repeating that lie.

  • carrotcakeman

    According to the United States Supreme Court and the Bible…

  • carrotcakeman

    The crucial difference is the law recognizes the person on life support is a person, but not the fetus.

    Please stop repeating these lies.

  • truthseeker

    No, just the truth on the current theological teachings about limbo, not hell.

  • El_Tigre_Loco

    The only difference between a fetus and a baby and an adult, is time. One thing I find missing in this discussion is the right of the father. Maybe he wants the baby.

  • carrotcakeman

    No, an adult, if born in the US, is an American Citizen and has rights. A fetus is not a citizen. If the father wants a baby, he should work on becoming pregnant.

  • Thomas Aquinas

    Well all I can say is that I am not lying. I will take the word of God over the secular USSC.

  • G Key

    Glad to see you’re back, CCM!

  • Spuddie

    Lol! Christian speak for “go ___ yourself”.

    You will pray for me, I will think for you.

  • Spuddie

    Hyperbole and hysterics seldom do. Especially when you are delusional enough to think you had a right to be involved with any of it.

  • edddoerr

    The quotes cited by Truthseeker do not really contradict Gen 1:27 and 2:7, which support the pro-choice position.

  • Spuddie

    Hardly. They represent distinct forms of existence which render your argument dishonest and with a material omission. Since you can’t act on a fetus’s behalf without attacking it’s mothers autonomy, equating one with a born person is factually wrong. You want to pretend the mothers will is immaterial or unworthy compared to your high and mighty opinion, but it hardly makes it so.

    By failing to take her into account, your statements are just self righteous hyperbole of someone who has to rely on hysterics rather than rational arguments.

  • edddoerr

    Sorry, but it is you who tries to distort the meaning of Gen 1:27 and overlook Gen 2:7. Jews for 3,000 years agree with what I wrote and they are the folks who gave us the OT.

  • edddoerr

    The Vatican has officially dropped Limbo. Haven’t you heard?

  • Thomas Aquinas

    When it comes to thinking I am way past your limited ability! But thank yo for the offer.

  • Thomas Aquinas

    So I guess that the number of 55 million aborted babies since roe doesn’t bother you!

  • Spuddie

    You have nothing left but cheap insults and self aggrandizement.

  • edddoerr

    There is such a thing as contraceptive failure, and that is why we need comprehensive sexuality education in schools and why the pill and contraceptive implants are superior to condoms. BTW, the official 1974 US government National Security Study Memorandum 200 report, launched by President Nixon and then signed by President Ford and National Security Adviser Scowcroft, discussed the world overpopulation problem and recommended universal access to contraception and abortion.

  • edddoerr

    TA, doubtless a male, would like to see his religious position imposed on all women.

  • edddoerr

    And what word of God might that be? Have you ever read Gen 1:27 and 2:7? They support women’s choice.

  • edddoerr

    The pre-28 week fetus is human, but it is not a person by any meaning in the Bible or science.

  • edddoerr

    Interestingly, “Truthseeker” was the name of a major atheist magazine.

  • edddoerr

    So husbands can force wives to bend to their will? What misogyny!

  • edddoerr

    Fetuses, not babies.

  • edddoerr

    This 21st century Aquinas disagrees with the earlier Aquinas, the Holy Doctor.

  • edddoerr

    My, my. TA thinks that 1/3 of all US women are “babykillers.”

  • edddoerr

    TA’s tiresome misogyny would exasperate anyone.