Mette Ivie Harrison

Dear Mormon men, please stop calling your wives angels

Mette Ivie Harrison

A guest post by Mette Harrison

Recently I was at a church meeting where a general authority talked about how much more spiritually advanced his wife was.

This got a laugh out of the crowd. I cringed.

I’m not going to name the GA or the circumstances, both because I have no interest in shaming him personally (his talk was great) and because it doesn’t matter. This kind of casual attempt at a joke happens all the time at church.

Mostly, Mormon men don’t get why my generation of women find it distasteful, to say the least. He didn’t specifically say “Angel Wife,” but it’s the same idea, and I’ve heard that phrase so many times it makes me shudder.

So I’m going to do my best to explain why.

First, it isn’t true. Women are not inherently more spiritual than men. There is no doctrinal support for this view. If it were true, I suspect the church and the scriptures would be completely different than they are. The idea that God would make one half of the population inherently more spiritual based on gender makes no sense. The idea that somehow the holiest spirits were put into female bodies makes even less sense. Why would God do that?

I can only think that what you’re trying to say is that even though you, as a man with the priesthood who holds authority in the LDS Church and feels vaguely uncomfortable about that gender divide, don’t feel like you’re superior. That it’s actually the reverse. But you can’t say anything to rock the boat, so you make a joke about women being superior or at least your wife being superior, even though it’s utterly untrue.

Perhaps what you mean is that women in patriarchal societies have been taught feminized ways of dealing with power. These are mannerisms you find pleasing, including speaking less and in roundabout ways, criticizing leaders less, agreeing outwardly, denying themselves selfish pursuits, serving children, and generally taking seriously jobs that you consider beneath you. Christ exemplified many of these traits, and in some part of your mind, you are processing this reality: Women are more like Christ, which means that men must be more like . . . the Pharisees or the Romans in the narrative of the New Testament. So you praise women, but don’t follow the full implications of this.

Second, saying that women are spiritually superior to men is a way of suggesting that you support the status quo in the church that says women don’t need the priesthood because they access divine power through motherhood. It’s a response to political feminism and to the Ordain Women movement, and it’s typically Mormonly passive-aggressive. “We’re right and we don’t need to change and there’s nothing going on here, so move along.” You’re pretending that the power differential between men and women doesn’t exist or doesn’t matter, which isn’t fair.

I hope you will think about why you feel the need to make jokes about these things. Are you doing it to get the men in the audience to listen to you and to agree with you, a GA, about the important place of women? Are you trying to deal with problems of abuse of women in the church?

If so, this isn’t the way to do it. It’s too oblique. Showing respect to women needs to be done without this kind of joking.

Third, saying women are spiritually superior to men is patronizing. It’s proof of your power over women that you feel you have the right to say this. Do women make jokes about their husbands being spiritually superior? I’ve never heard that, because women lack power in our culture, and thus they can’t patronize men.

Think about how “tomboys” are treated, even in Mormonism. Few girls are ever really told they shouldn’t adopt masculine traits. Girls are often subconsciously encouraged to climb trees, play aggressively, wear jeans, and even to talk back. At least until they hit puberty. But young Mormon boys are NEVER encouraged to play with dolls, put on makeup for fun, or paint their nails. This is because female traits are less positively regarded in our Mormon culture. It’s why women in the church ask for the priesthood, but men don’t ask for anything that’s feminine. There’s no power in that. Do men desperately want to be Primary presidents? I don’t think they do.

I know, I know, you meant it as a compliment. Why can’t women just accept compliments? Well, the whole “men give compliments and women accept them” dynamic is just further proof of the unequal power dynamic within Mormonism. If a woman told you that she was so proud of her husband for learning how to do the dishes, what would your response be? That’s patronizing and you would think it was sarcastic.

That’s how it sounds to me when you say that your wife is spiritually superior.

 


OTHER POSTS BY METTE HARRISON:


 

Comments

  1. The Priesthood helps men to become better. The women in my life that I am close to, such as my wife and mother, already are leaps and bounds ahead of me in that they possess the qualities that I seek for and need in order to use the priesthood appropriately as stated in Doctrine and Covenants 121:41. Here it sates that “No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;” If not and I act as stated in verse 37 “when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness” (as men so often have a tendency to do), “behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.” I know that if I am acting as patient, kind, gentle and loving as my wife I am using the Priesthood, but if not I don’t have it. Thanks to all the women for teaching us men how to act in such a way to be worthy of the Priesthood. They truly are angels to me.

  2. But if it’s true that the priesthood makes men better, what are we saying? That we have a bunch of unenlightened, unspiritual, clueless men leading our church? That the qualification for leadership is to be terrible people? If that’s the case, why don’t we spend more time bragging about how morally depraved our church leaders are? Why don’t we teach that church members should never look to our leaders as examples and that we should ignore what they say (since they are so inferior), and instead follow the examples and words of women?

    The other issue I have with your statement is that even though I agree with the scripture you quoted, I’m not sure that we see that happening in practice in our church. If a bishop does something wrong, maybe the bravest among us will report him to the stake president. But what if the stake president sides with the bishop? Or what if the stake president is the problem? There are few checks and balances to our church leaders’ power and influence, unfortunately. I’ve been lucky in the leadership department for the most part. But I know plenty of women who have hit that wall. We’re good at saying priesthood leaders should behave. But we’re not so good about enforcing it.

    We say women are angels. But it’s all lip service when we don’t let them lead. Before you say, “But the Relief Society…” Let’s acknowledge that the RS is only over other women. Bishops can override RS presidents at their discretion. (Yes, hopefully they know better, but there’s no one to stop them if they don’t.) Women don’t count money. They speak on a very limited basis in General Conference. They began praying in General Conference only recently. We rarely pray for women the same way we pray for our prophet and apostles. Our lesson manuals are made up of stories and quotes about men and by men.

    If we really thought women were angels, we’d give them some spiritual respect. We’d treat their words with as much deference as we do for those supposedly degenerate men who lead us. We’d tell their stories more, and we’d ask them to speak more often and give their words equal weight (or maybe even more, if they’re that angelic compared to mortal men) because we’d expect to learn from them.

  3. //”But if it’s true that the priesthood makes men better, what are we saying? That we have a bunch of unenlightened, unspiritual, clueless men leading our church? “//

    Well, you seem to be saying that, but members of the church in general don’t. Personally, I hold my priesthood leaders in very high regard and respect and strive to follow their counsel. I’m certain that my views are not uncommon, but shared by all except a few outlier members. What a blessing it is to have Bishops, Stake Presidents, and more importantly Prophets to lead us. No they are not perfect and yes the Priesthood helps them to become better. The purpose of life is to progress and become better. Men can learn from women and women can learn from men. They don’t have to be the same to do this. What you speak of as flaws I am not familiar with in the church. Women speak, they lead and teach, sit in meetings and assist in making important decisions. How thankful we are for their council and wisdom. And women are spoken of with much respect in the church. As far as I can tell that’s what the author has a problem with which is the entire reason for the article.

  4. First I’ll mention that raising kids is the most important role one can have in the home, but also, if anyone is concerned about having the “power” of the Priesthood then he most certainly will not have it because according to D&C 121:37 if it is intended to be used “to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.”

  5. You seem to think that women are missing out on something here, but what are they missing? Is it the “Power” or is it the stigma of having “Power”? If it’s the former they won’t find it in the Priesthood. If it’s the latter then they might find it from those that misunderstand the Priesthood. The Priesthood is not used to bless one’s self and can’t be used in this way. If I seek a Priesthood blessing I must look to someone other than myself. It’s not a selfish thing. Regarding JS teachings you might benefit from reading this: https://www.lds.org/topics/joseph-smiths-teachings-about-priesthood-temple-and-women?lang=eng&old=true

  6. What an amazing quote you gave: “are leaps and bounds ahead of me in that they possess the qualities that I seek for and need in order to use the priesthood appropriately”. I believe you feel this way, but if the Church actually believed this were true at least half the speakers in general conference would be women, and priesthood session itself would be spoken to by at minimum 50% women, probably more as the priesthood has so much to learn from them.

    I pray for and anxiously await the day when women (without the priesthood unless the Lord sees fit otherwise) will address the priesthood holders in priesthood session. There is so much they could teach us if given the opportunity to address the priesthood as a whole.

  7. I respectfully disagree. When men say women are more spiritual it’s not “patronizing” or joking around. We truly mean it. You claim that “nowhere it says that women are more spiritual than men” That’s just not true. Hugh B. Brown said: “Women are more willing to make sacrifices than are men, more patient in suffering, more earnest in prayer. They are the peers and often SUPERIOR to men in resilience, in goodness, in morality, and in faith.” (Sept. 1965). Apostle M. Russell Ballard said: “We men simply cannot nurture as you nurture. Most of us don’t have the sensitivity—spiritual and otherwise—that by your eternal nature you INHERENTLY have.” (Women of Righteousness – 2001). Elder Faust:
    “Womanhood is the highest place of honor in HUMAN life” (May 2000). As far as calling them “Angels” it’s not just a cliché. Joseph Smith said: “Sisters, if you live up to your privileges, the angels cannot be restrained from being your associates.” (History of the Church 4:605). Boyd K. Packer: “The limitation of priesthood responsibilities to men is a tribute to the incomparable place of women in the plan of salvation.”
    And: “In the woman’s part, she is not just equal to man; she is superior!” (“A Tribute to Women” -July, 1989). These are just a few examples. If hearing that women have special gifts and are more
    spiritual makes you cringe… you are in the wrong church!
    It is universally accepted and taught in Priesthood quorums, from your ward to the Twelve that women are more spiritual. This is doctrinal, not just cultural. On my mission I was taught by my Mission President that the Sister Missionaries were far and away, more spiritual than the Elders, no joke, no metaphor intended, just a fact of life. This was objectively based on our daily activity reports. Women prayed more, read more scriptures, worked harder and had more success than men.
    You say “why would God make half the population more spiritual? It makes no sense.” It makes perfect sense from the Mormon Doctrine point of view. God didn’t just “put the more spiritual beings in female bodies.” You were already female before you were born and had been so for nearly an eternity.
    In the end you try to poison the well with “It’s just a compliment” No, it isn’t. It’s men’s way to acknowledge their inferiority, at least in this regard. As far as the dynamic “men give a compliment, women accept it”, it works both ways in a relationship.
    One more detail. What job in the church is usually held by women that men want? Easy: Nursery. I have been in the nursery and I know that would be the preferred calling of any man. I know former bishops who made the incoming bishop promise to put them in the nursery. We want it THAT bad. You may be tempted to think this is another attempt at a joke, but it isn’t. Instead of going by your feelings and general perception, ask. Ask any man their dream calling. I bet you Nursery would be #1. By far.

  8. Hugh B. Brown said:
    “Women are more willing to make sacrifices than are men, more patient in
    suffering, more earnest in prayer. They are the peers and often
    SUPERIOR to men in resilience, in goodness, in morality, and in faith.”
    (Sept. 1965). Apostle M. Russell Ballard said: “We men simply cannot
    nurture as you nurture. Most of us don’t have the sensitivity—spiritual
    and otherwise—that by your eternal nature you INHERENTLY have.” (Women
    of Righteousness – 2001). Elder Faust: “Womanhood is the highest place
    of honor in HUMAN life” (May 2000). As far as calling them “Angels” it’s
    not just a cliché. Joseph Smith said: “Sisters, if you live up to your
    privileges, the angels cannot be restrained from being your associates.”
    (History of the Church 4:605) Boyd K. Packer: “The limitation of
    priesthood responsibilities to men is a tribute to the incomparable
    place of women in the plan of salvation.” And: “In the woman’s part, she
    is not just equal to man; she is superior!” (“A Tribute to Women”
    -July, 1989). These are just a few examples. If hearing that women have
    special gifts and are more spiritual makes you cringe… you are in the
    wrong church!

  9. First of all, it’s disingenuous of you to pretend that when we say that “the priesthood makes men better” we mean that our leaders are “terrible” or “morally depraved”.
    What is true of men is that we are more selfish, more apathetic and less motivated to serve than women. It’s just a fact of life. I was taught this by a mission President who had the statistics and numbers from years of daily reports to prove it. The sisters by far prayed more, worked harder, studied more and were more successful than the Elders.
    The church is a theocracy. There’s little or no “power” to be had. Men are but conduits, facilitators, plumbing through which the policies and procedures of the church flow down to the members. If a woman was the Bishop, the Stake President or the Prophet herself, we would give their words more deference than any other. Deference is given to the office, not to the gender.

  10. The Gospel of Philip states that “those who have united in the bridal chamber will no longer be separated” “One receives them [the male and female powers] from the mirrored bridal chamber.” “if anyone becomes a son of the bridal chamber, he will receive the light.” “The heavenly man has many more sons than the earthly man. If the sons of Adam are many, although they die, how much more the sons of the perfect man, they who do not die but are always begotten.”
    “ The Gospel of Philip taught that the existence of the world depends on the mystery of marriage: “Great is the mystery of marriage! For without it the world would not have existed. How the existence of the world depends on man, and the existence of man on marriage.
    Source: Nag Hammadi scriptures (translated into English in 1977). The Apostle Philip died in 80 A.D.

  11. My husband does want to be primary president! LOL

  12. And most men I know consider working in the nursery their dream calling (myself included)

  13. “If the church actually believed this were true at least half the speakers in general conference would be women”.
    I don’t see the logic in this statement. In the church, instruction is received in many ways, not just through general conference speeches. The most important way, according to Mormon doctrine is in the home, and not just by speaking but by example. In conference we listen to the prophet because he’s the prophet, not because he’s a man. When a woman is given that office, (and I believe it will happen) we will listen to her just as eagerly and reverently as we do the current Prophet.

  14. If they are more spiritual, than why not give them the priesthood?

  15. You don’t see the logic? If women have more to offer than they should speak more. It’s pretty clear cut logic. You are defending a sexist, patriarchal society. By keeping women silent, you are not treating them equally.

  16. They are missing out on equal treatment, equal rights, equal pay, equal educational opportunities. They are missing out on not being blamed for their own abuse, rape, and downtrodden condition.

  17. First there are obvious doctrinal reasons. I’m sure you are aware that Mormon doctrine says that having the priesthood = having and rising babies. So men and women are equal. Give one the “special blessing” of the other, and the balance is broken.
    Also according to statistics, a vast majority of LDS women don’t want the priesthood.
    http://religionnews.com/2015/12/15/mormon-women-and-priesthood-5-depressing-new-survey-findings/
    So the leaders don’t have the social pressure to come up with a major revelation, which would be required to trump previous doctrine, as it happened with blacks back in 1978. I think it will eventually happen, but it will take a long time.

  18. The underlying problem is that Mormonism pushes men to be both emotionally available and yet uber-masculine at the same time. Due to the push and pull they put on themselves, they want women to be the constant factor that they are not. This forced dichotomy of emotions and mentality is the root of Mormon sexism and homophobia. Whether by genetics or subculture, Mormons produce more LGBT than average and treat them far worse than average, and I believe that gender identity dogma within the church is the driving force of conflict. Mormonism creates its own challenges by its deep-rooted sexism.

  19. To explain with an example, I’m an artist and saying that “the best artists are the best art teachers” is not a logical statement. Doing art and teaching it are completely different skills, yet equally important. So it is with “being” spiritual and preaching.
    To be clear I’m not defending the church, just clarifying its position. When the article above says that “there’s no doctrinal support for the view that women are more spiritual than men”, It shows a profound misunderstanding of what the church and its doctrines are all about.

  20. Fine, but we are talking about the priesthood which has nothing to do with those things.

  21. Yes there’s some patronizing going on, and I agree that such patronizing is harmful and not productive.

    But also MANY men say that stuff genuinely – that their wives are more spiritual than they are, that they’re angels, that they’re naturally more service-oriented than the men are. Those statements hold true for many men I think. They’re absolutely true for me! And I’m grateful! And if I say that stuff, it’s not disingenuous or patronizing or pandering or condescending. It’s just plain true, and I think nobody should be offended by it.

    I disagree with the author’s assertion that if you say that stuff it must be “proof of your power over women that you feel you have the right to say this.” Maybe sometimes, but definitely not always.

    Her very last sentence in the article is just unfair. It’s as if there’s no room for any man to say this stuff genuinely.

  22. Thank you. “The errand of angels is given to …everyone.”

  23. But my wife really is more superior to me in spirituality and faithfulness. She is also more intelligent than I am ….. and I am a research scientist with degrees in microbiology and biochemistry. So how do I say that without sounding patronizing?… Just keep my mouth shut I guess?

  24. Geoff, please tell me your comment is satire. Such an uninformed and hostile comment surely is not meant for serious consideration.

  25. i agree with jarmatic. In this patriarchal organization, women do not have a voice. They are acted upon and have no recourse. Male privilege almost always trumps female need.

  26. Me thinks thou doest protest too much! This silly view really stands the fight for gender equality in churches on it’s head! In most religious circles, women have won an equal standing with men, but men still are dominant at the head of most denominations. I’m not Mormon, but I’ve seen enough to know that among them, everything about the male gender shouts “male superiority!” So what’s the beef if some enlightened LDS men want to admit–even jokingly, that their wives are spiritually more attuned than they are?

    BTW, I believe a good argument can be made for the idea that most women are more spiritual than their men! I don’t know about the LDS church, but I’ve noticed that today most other churches have many more women than men in their pews!

  27. “What is true of men is that we are more selfish, more apathetic and less motivated to serve than women. It’s just a fact of life.” I found this quote in the comments. A good example of an “alternative fact”. And a good example of what the author of the article is talking about. When we start accepting socialized behavior – selfishness in males, nurturing in females – as essential, normative, inherent and God-given we start walking down the path of institutionalized sexism, racism, and etc. If it’s the highest honor to be a woman, then everyone should want to be one. And it makes sense to me that you’d want to put someone of honor, dignity, wisdom and understanding in positions of authority. And yet…

  28. As long as you sustain men that reject women holding the priesthood you cannot complain that the people you vote for are wrong in their leadership. If you want LDS women to hold the priesthood and/or be seen as equal to men(as God sees us) then join a branch of Mormonism that holds your views, or vote no to any leader that doesn’t share the Lord’s views. God gave you the right to vote in the LDS Church, don’t waste it sustaining men that you disagree with.

  29. If the scriptures have women as prophetesses, and Joseph Smith stated the Relief Society was to be filled with priestesses, then the Mormon Doctrine is that women should hold the priesthood. The problem isn’t the doctrine, it’s the current theology and the fact that that majority of the members of your Mormon denomination doesn’t understand there’s a difference between the two.

  30. I am a Mormon male. The reason I say my wife is awesome and is better than me is because, well, she is. I value myself much less than I value my wife. I see my myriad of flaws much more acutely than her few quirks. She inspires me to try to be better. I would not be half the man I am without her. I’m sure there are men in the church who think they are somehow superior to the women in the church, and I know there are women who believe all men in the church are out to oppress them. But the reality is that issues rarely fit exclusively in to a sexism, racism, Mormonism, or an other ism. In this case I think it entirely likely that anyone who is lucky enough to “marry up” will be more likely to succeed and more likely to be grateful for their spouse, and more likely to express it. Thus you have a higher number of those who are succeeding in life singing the praises of the person who helped them get there.

  31. Who has institutionalized the fact that Men have evolved to be hunter/providers and women to give birth and nurture? This is the product of millions of years of evolution. It’s not an “alternative fact”.
    As far as the mormon church is concerned, it is inherent and god-given. Just look at my quotes by church authorities in another post. They all agree and even use those exact words.
    At this point I may have been misunderstood. I have no problem with women leading. The mormon church does, yet the author is an active mormon. But obviously she doesn’t know her own church, when she claims that “church doctrine doesn’t support the idea of women being more spiritual than men.” I have provided quotes showing that she is flat wrong on that point. Just a sampler. There are many more. Despite her PhD in literature, in Mormon Doctrine she gets an F.

  32. Everything you said is correct. And yes, even now women perform intiatory priesthood ordinances in the temples. And that’s why I think the revelation will come, eventually to give women more priesthood responsibilities. However you can use the doctrine both ways, to support and deny, because you could argue that women are meant to be priestesses only after the resurrection.
    I must confess I don’t know the difference between theology and doctrine either. When I look in the dictionary the definitions overlap a great deal, so when I say doctrine I mean teachings the church accepts as true.

  33. According to this article you should stop saying these things, because you obviously don’t mean them and you’re just being condescending. She knows you better than you know yourself, and she’s sure you have political or other motivations to compliment your wife.

  34. You may not be mormon but you have a better insight than this lady who is. Mormon men are taught from infancy than their mothers, their sisters are MORE spiritual than they are and should have them as an example to follow. They should obey their mothers and form an equal partnership with their wives. So for a man who has grown in the mormon church to read that “nothing says that women are more spiritual than men” it’s almost laughter-inducing ignorance.

  35. I guess those of us who have wives who far surpass us in spirtuality are forbidden from speaking by the women’s SJW movement.

  36. I just want to clarify a few things that we believe as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I’m not sure what you refer to when you say: ”If it’s the highest honor to be a woman, then everyone should want to be one.” This seems to be your opinion only, but this thought of yours that the highest honor for all people is to be a woman is not consistent with LDS beliefs. Each is to reach their own potential, unique to them. Teaching that women should become the same as men, and vice versa, is a foreign concept to me, even though it is a popular worldly view. Now, it is true that there are some males, such as Bruce Jenner, that would want to become female, but I still hold to the belief as taught in The Family: A Proclamation to the World which teaches that “Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.” So, although I respect your opinion, I do disagree with your belieif that “When we start accepting socialized behavior – selfishness in males, nurturing in females – as essential, normative, inherent and God-given we start walking down the path of institutionalized sexism, racism, and etc.” I would again point to The Family: A Proclamation to the World which states “By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners.”

  37. Women use to preform every ordnance & blessing we men do. The difference between doctrine and theology in LDS terms is this: the doctrine is the scriptures, the theology is the interpretation of the doctrine. This is why things change over time, the doctrine is the iron rod, the theology is the ever changing “wind of doctrine.” This is why there cannot ever be one true mortal church, or even one true Mormon denomination. We’re all constantly changing our theologies to fit our understanding of the doctrine.

  38. The problem with this idea is that it rejects grace and the atonement, so it’s neither doctrinally nor theologically sound.

  39. I don’t know, but perhaps it is because they are more naturally spiritual than men that men are offered the Priesthood.

  40. It’s not my opinion — that everyone should be a woman. I don’t believe that or think that. Language that overly edifies women has a negative impact on women — and quite possibly leads to erroneous or damaging conclusions about what it means to be a woman. So, to say that a woman is an angel is literally ridiculous. It’s a feeling — ok, fine. But such sentiments betray an unconscious misogyny. And, while proclamations and doctrines define the human experience and our relationship with the divine, many are hopelessly inaccurate or flawed. (I am not LDS, and my faith tradition also is heavily doctrinal, some of which I do struggle with, particularly those pertaining to sexuality and gender.) I like that The Family doctrine states that “fathers and mother are obligated to help one another as equal partners.” Yes. But equal partnership, it seems to me from the other part of that quote, means that fathers do “male” things (provide and protect) and women do “female” things (nurture). So, why not emphasize the “equal partners” part and have men and women, mothers and fathers, share equally in presiding over, providing, nurturing, and protecting their families. Equal means that one is not lifted above the other because they are better or naturally suited to it based on gender. The problem is when this doctrine gives weight to “women are nurturing” bias. For then, what happens is that women are viewed from that lens only — to the suppression of their abilities to preside over, provide for, and protect a family, as an equal partner.

  41. You claimed that women have performed every ordnance that men have performed. I am very interested in this. Have they performed baptisms, marriages, dedicated graves, etc.? Can you give me references to this? Thank you.

  42. Yes, the Community of Christ holds the exact same keys as the Latter-day Saint branch of the Church of Jesus Christ. Between the two Mormon denominations, all ordences have been performed by women, except (as far as I know) sealings, which I’m sure will be performed by sisters in the Relief Society of the Church of Jesus Christ in Christian Fellowship soon enough. I’m not sure how far the original Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints got, but historical records show they were ordained as deacons, teachers, priestesses, and in some manner with the Melchisedec or higher priesthood as they were taught by the prophet the proper way to heal the sick by the laying on of hands. Some argue that he was merely teaching them, they were not given the actual keys. But, this would mean they were healing the sick in Nauvoo without keys and that Joseph was going to give them they keys at some point, and thus there’s no reason for them not to have them now, other than the fact that the Mormon denominations that reject the Holy Spirit calling women to be ordained are voting men into leadership positions that refuse to heed this holy call.

    http://reliefsociety.cjccf.org/about/frequently-asked-questions/

  43. I have a suggestion, why don’t the men give up the priesthood to women and assume the subservient role that the women now enjoy. Otherwise this is just hypocritical lip service as they in the next sentence tell the women to make them a sandwich and put the kids to bed.

  44. Thank you for your detailed response! It is appreciated.

  45. // “So, to say that a woman is an angel is literally ridiculous. It’s a feeling — ok, fine.”//

    Actually, it’s more than a feeling. LDS doctrine teaches that angels are not only heavenly beings, but mortals too which can certainly apply to both men and women. I don’t call every woman an angel because I take the title seriously. Calling someone an angel just because she is a woman may be an artificial compliment, but when I call my wife an angel it’s because I believe it with all the feeling of my heart and because I believe it to be a true statement.

    // “But equal partnership… means that fathers do “male” things (provide and protect) and women do “female” things (nurture). So, why not emphasize the “equal partners” part and have men and women, mothers and fathers, share equally in presiding over, providing, nurturing, and protecting their families.”//

    Because we believe that each is to focus on their specific role rather than blending them. The worldly view to blend roles is relatively new. In the beginning Adam was formed in the image of God and from his rib was formed a woman. “From the rib of Adam, Eve was formed… The rib signifies neither dominion nor subservience, but a lateral relationship as partners, to work and to live, side by side.” (Elder Russell M. Nelson, Lessons from Eve, Ensign November 1987.) The rib is symbolic of an equal partnership where the man is not greater than the woman and the woman is not greater than the man. Adam’s role was to preside, provide and protect and Eve’s role was to nurture their children. Again, the modern view of men becoming women and vice versa is foreign to me.

    // “Language that overly edifies women has a negative impact on women — and quite possibly leads to erroneous or damaging conclusions about what it means to be a woman.”//

    Now that is a statement that I won’t ever understand. How a woman could be offended by being praised is beyond me, but perhaps it’s because I am a man that I don’t understand how a woman could feel this way.

    // “It’s not my opinion — that everyone should be a woman. I don’t believe that or think that.”//

    Glad we can agree that there are differences between men and women even though we disagree on where to draw that line.

  46. Fortunately we know not to take you seriously since you obviously don’t describe how the priesthood works, nor do you properly describe the roles of men and women in the home. I appreciate your sense of humor.

  47. Where are the quotes from LDS women regarding this topic? I would suggest they are a drop in the bucket compared to the hours and hours of talks by men on this subject. In my mind a partnership is not especially strong or effective when one gender holds all the authority and decision making ability. Auxiliary presidencies don’t count as authority or even true partners to our all male leadership.

  48. There are plenty. And they do count because they speak for themselves, regardless of their position. Mormon feminists are fighting for something most Mormon women don’t want, at least at the moment. In fact, most men don’t want it either. In LDS culture, leadership is considered a burden, not a privilege.

  49. So which is it:
    a: God’s church or
    b: A patriarchal, abusive, oppressive, unfair organization created by men to dominate women under the pretense of having God’s stamp of approval?
    Because if it’s “a”, you’re fighting against God, and if it’s “b” it’s an evil cult and you’d best get the hell out and advise everyone else to do the same.

  50. Culture and tradition has made the “vote” pointless. If you are converted into the church today you are given the impression that a vote “not in favor” is a vote against God’s will.
    After all, the Bishop, or Stake President, or First Presidency, prayed earnestly and God told them that the person proposed is the person God want’s in said position.

  51. “We’re right and we don’t need to change and there’s nothing going on here, so move along.”

    Except, the leaders of the Church don’t form the doctrine – God does.
    The leaders don’t run the church – God does.
    The leaders don’t decide who gets what or when – God does.
    The leaders don’t decide on new programs or changes to existing policy – God does.

    This is a fundemental doctrinal pillar of the restored Church. If you want a church where policy and doctrine are changed and altered based on public pressure, there are plenty to choose from – but none of them are the Lord’s true church.

    If you don’t comprehend this, not having the Priesthood is the least of your challenges.

  52. The change the culture or move on. Stand up for what you believe or worship with others that share your beliefs. It’s really that simple. The LDS church is just 1 of over 100 different Mormon denominations, and the others need you far more than they do.

  53. I don’t like visiting this page (and very rarely come here) for the sole reason the main author and her guest authors are so negative. They take, for example, a husband calling his wife “angel” to be offensive. Offensive? Good grief, I’d be positively thrilled if my wife called me a masculine form for something similar to “angel”. But, hey, if you want to be offended, knock yourself out……

  54. As a male, if I say my wife is an angel, it is NOT a joke. It is only a very serious compliment. She chooses other ways to compliment me which, if one wanted to go the the extreme, could be considered sexist.

  55. @chingasmagee1:disqus Thank you for the work you are doing here. It’s hard to do and takes a lot of time. I’m grateful for the truth you are sharing and defending.

  56. May all people 500 years from now have clean water to drink equally for free may they all have proper food and shelter

  57. You are totally wrong. Women ARE more spiritually intune. Why? Because we are more emotional and men are much more physically motivated, shall we say. You must be a really insecure person to not want a man to call you an angel. Most men I know recognize that their wives are in many ways better than them. Not that women are better than men but every women I know that is divorced had an abusive exhusband and almost all of the men had porn addictions. Look at statistics, history and at the scriptures. In the last days it will be very hard for a woman to find a righteous man. That isn’t me saying that, it’s in the scriptures. Look at how men act, how they treat women and children etc. I heard an older women at church about 10 years ago talk to a women in her 20’s about her husband, their lives together and cooking and chores. She said when her husband got home from work he helped cook dinner and helped with the kids. The older woman said, “You are the first woman I have talked to at church that hasn’t said her husband comes home from work and plays video games for HOURS. The FIRST WOMAN. You are just a few years older than me and I have never once heard a Gen-Xer say they hate being referred to as angels. To be honest, I don’t hear it really ever from men. It may be implied but this entire article is just stupid because you are totally wrong. Sorry but it’s true.

  58. God doesn’t have a problem with women leading. In case you missed it, Women lead the children, youth and women’s organizations of the LDS church. We also hold the priesthood in our temples. SO, maybe it is God’s way of keeping everything organized, And frankly, men can do all the leading they want. I have zero desire to lead. IT’s overrated.

  59. Women have the priesthood in our temples. Also, we will probably have it in heaven. God gives us things to strengthen us. If women already possess this as a strength, maybe it is given to men to help in this area. Not sure why this is so controversial unless pride gets in the way and women start demanding it.

  60. Just because one church performs these ordinances doesn’t mean they are god approved sweet pea.

  61. I agree .MY dad was/is MADLY in love with my mom. She died a few years ago and he really does view her as an angel. Someone that put up with him for so many years. He knows he married up and feels he needs to try his hardest now if he can ever be with her again. It’s not just words. He really believes it.

  62. what are you even going on about. You seriously have problems. Chill.

  63. I agree. The fact that Joseph Smith ordained women is good enough for me. Why Latter Day Saint breakoff groups, like the LDS church stopped the practice, we don’t know. Unfortunately, Brigham Young didn’t feel revelation was needed any more and just took the priesthood from anyone he saw as beneath his group of white men. As the LDS branch of Mormonism continues to evolve, I’m sure they’ll eventually get back to Smith’s version of the religion as they did when they lifted the ban on blacks. In the meantime, I’m confident that the Lord approves of the ordinances the LDS church preforms just as he does other Latter Day Saint denominations.

  64. If you doubt the truth, be sure to read the original Relief Society meeting notes and Joseph Smith’s journals. I know it’s hard to find the time to seek truth, but it is there.

  65. Gee, I though this was going to be a good article, and it started quite well. But then it lapsed into feminist nonsense and anti-Curch garbage like “you support the status quo in the church that says women don’t need the
    priesthood because they access divine power through motherhood.”

    Go ahead, join the liberals in trashing tradition, God and nature. Hopefully you will realize at some point that you are just another servant of Satan.

  66. If they are more spiritual, why are there 1.2 million abortions in the US each year? Why are 70% of child murderers and child abusers women, why is 60% of IPV female perpetrated, why are 80% of divorces filed for by women, etc? Womanhood has become the golden calf to many a Latter-Day Saint.

  67. Well, as women have more rights than men (in practice), make more per hour than men, have more educational opportunities, abuse more than men, rape the same as men…..I guess your agenda really has no factual basis.

  68. Anytime you do anything for anyone it makes you better. The PH has nothing to do with it. The PH is the power and authority to act in Gods name. If you suck as a Father and husband don’t assume all men do. Debasing one gender to elevate another is not of God.

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