Pope Francis addresses the opening of the World Meeting of Families 2018 in Dublin, Ireland, via video on Aug. 21, 2018. Pope Francis will attend the event this weekend. Photo by John McElroy on behalf of the WMOF 2018

Catholics seek encouragement as World Meeting of Families opens in Dublin

DUBLIN (RNS) – As 750,000 Catholics gather in Dublin for the start of the World Meeting of Families, the week is shaping up to bring an intense mix of joy, learning and even some sadness as the long shadow of the clergy sexual abuse crisis proves inescapable.

On the agenda of the triennial event, which began Tuesday (Aug. 21) and runs through Sunday, are workshops on topics ranging from domestic violence and migration to incarceration and personal technology. Capping the gathering will be weekend appearances by Pope Francis at a festival featuring personal testimonies and a closing Mass on Sunday.

“Families today face many challenges in their efforts to embody faithful love, to bring up children with sound values and to be a leaven of goodness, love and mutual concern in the larger community,” Pope Francis said Monday in a written statement to open the gathering. “I hope that this festival will be a source of renewed encouragement to families everywhere.”

But unofficial activities will bear echoes of last week’s Pennsylvania grand jury report, which alleged that more than 1,000 children had been abused by upwards of 300 priests over a 70-year period. Francis is expected to meet privately with select abuse survivors during the gathering. A solidarity-with-victims event, led by prominent abuse survivor and activist Colm O’Gorman, is planned to happen concurrently with the pope’s Sunday Mass.

By meeting in Ireland, Catholics are brushing up against a surrounding culture that’s become less shaped by Catholicism in recent years. A landslide referendum earlier this year legalized abortion in Ireland despite opposition from the church.

This week, the church is getting pushback once again from local critics incensed by clergy sexual abuse.

“If an international organization covered up child abuse, moved abusers around and denied justice to victims, its leader should be detained by the authorities upon arrival at the airport. Not given a warm welcome at a cost of €32 million to ordinary people,” Irish journalist and blogger Ciaran Tierney tweeted a few days ago.

American church leaders will have prominent roles at the World Meeting even as they face renewed scrutiny back home in connection with the sexual abuse crisis. But an appearance by Cardinal Donald Wuerl, archbishop of Washington, has been canceled. Wuerl, who is under fire for his role in the mishandling of allegations while he was in Pennsylvania, had been scheduled to give the keynote speech Wednesday.

Cardinal Blase Cupich, archbishop of Chicago, will lead a session titled “The Dignity and Beauty of Sexual Love: Finding New Language for Ancient Truths.”

Meanwhile, the Rev. James Martin, editor at large of America magazine and author of “Building a Bridge,” will discuss “Showing Welcome and Respect in our Parishes for ‘LGBT’ People and their Families.”

Comments

  1. Where is the discussion about the flaws in the history and theology?

  2. How anyone can stomach being there listening to same old ridiculous comments is beyond me.

  3. I once heard it said that Ireland was a Jansenist nightmare. The unveiling of the horrible realities of the clerical abuse scandal and the Magdalene laundries scandal exposed that reality to the harsh light of day and the Irish people finally put their collective foot down and said, “Enough!” They took Jesus’ advice of shaking the dust off their feet and moving on, leaving the churches in Ireland nearly empty.

    The pope could do a lot to undo the significant damage that was inflicted on the people of Ireland by approaching them with a heavy, penitent heart and a firm commitment to listen to every single one of their plentiful horror stories. Perhaps he could listen to families headed by single, divorced mothers (once considered pariahs) struggling to survive on one income, or immigrant families fleeing violent unrest in the Middle East that we in America helped to create. Or perhaps families headed by same-sex couples searching for affirmation as gay Catholic and Irish. The message of the Good Shepherd is one that seems to have been obscured by centuries of warped Jansenist misinterpretation. Pope Francis can change that.

  4. Publicly admonishing the vowed community in Ireland will send a clearer message that he is not going to stand for any of this behavior again. He can not just speak of how sorry they are, he must publicly mention how sinful the laundries were, the orphanages, the sexual abuses, everything rotten done to Ireland. He must say the orders, diocese names and how grave their sin so that those still alive/culpable cannot hide behind some archaic religious notion that they were doing good, and for those who came after so that they can be certain that type of behavior will not be tolerated. Ireland has suffered too much and to let any of it slide by without calling out those sins/perpetrators specifically is a disgrace.

  5. You’re obviously unfamiliar with the Cloyne Report, which revealed that the Vatican had signed documents instructing local Irish bishops not to report abusive behavior to local civil authorities but rather leave it to the Vatican to sort these things out:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_in_Cloyne_diocese

    That being the case, a firm admonishment from the Pope to “the vowed community” would be highly presumptuous, not to mention inappropriate given the circumstances. No, humble contrition by Pope Francis is the only posture that can win the hearts of the Irish people now.

  6. Meanwhile, the Rev. James Martin, editor at large of America magazine and author of “Building a Bridge,” will discuss “Showing Welcome and Respect in our Parishes for ‘LGBT’ People and their Families.”

    How ironic ….

  7. Catholic moral theology on same sex relationships predates the Jansenist heresy by millennia. As Jesus said:

    “Haven’t you read that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

  8. “You’re obviously unfamiliar with the Cloyne Report, which revealed that the Vatican had signed documents instructing local Irish bishops not to report abusive behavior to local civil authorities but rather leave it to the Vatican to sort these things out.”

    And you’re obviously not aware that that is a misrepresentation of the facts and a gross distortion hyped up by the media and politicians:

    http://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2011/09/03/full-text-the-holy-sees-response-to-the-cloyne-report/

  9. It was a direct historical claim about the divine origin and exclusively gender-complementarian nature of marriage — a direct historical claim given by Jesus Himself. No escape from it.

  10. You rely on the Catholic Herald as an informed source for info on the Cloyne report ?

    Let’s look at the Ryan Report – from Ireland as well :

    ” Among the more extreme allegations of abuse were beatings and rapes, subjection to naked beatings in public, being forced into oral sex, and subjection to beatings after failed rape attempts by brothers.[3] The abuse has been described by some as Ireland’s Holocaust.[4][5] The abuse was said to be “endemic” in the institutions that dealt with boys.[6] The UK based Guardian newspaper, described the abuse as “the stuff of nightmares”, citing the
    adjectives used in the report as being particularly chilling: “systemic, pervasive, chronic, excessive, arbitrary, endemic”.[7] ”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_to_Inquire_into_Child_Abuse

    You are an ass !

  11. Except marriage in Israel wasn’t one man & one woman. It was often one man and a number of women. Even dozens or hundreds of women. So much for the direct historical claim. A man shall leave his father & mother and be united with his four wives…

    Moving on.

  12. The Wikipedia article to which you linked correctly reports that the malfeasor was Bishop Magee personally rather than “the Vatican”.

    As occurs in the Episcopal Church, bishops sometimes imagine themselves to have unlimited power, unlimited intelligence, and act accordingly to the detriment of everyone.

  13. You are an anti-Catholic.

    The Ryan Report, like the Royal Commission in Australia, lacked any of the safeguards built into an actual criminal justice system to separate allegation from truth.

    There was no right to rebut, no right to confront witnesses, nothing.

    The result was a compendium of unsubstantiated allegations, some by known psychotics, about people who had been dead for many years.

    Most of us have one or more siblings whose “recollections” of family events veer quite widely from reality – for example I am sure you have siblings or cousins still in the Church who consider you an over-the-top eccentric at best.

  14. The lesson actually deals with purpose of the two sexes, which underlies both the teaching against divorce and the teaching against same sex sexual relations.

  15. Polygamy was extremely rare in Israel and was looked down on by the rabbis.

    It appears to have been an accommodation to the original Jews who had been polytheistic semites like their neighbors.

    By the time Jesus walked the earth polygamy was dead in Israel.

  16. Amazingly he seems to be walking around unscathed in all this.

    So far.

  17. Have you read the Vatican response – in full? No. Thought not.

  18. Rooted in Genesis and God’s design and intention for male and females and the function of sexual relationships.

  19. Publicly admonishing everyone, those who acted badly and those who acted correctly, sends a clear message of cluelessness.

    No, Ireland has not suffered too much. Ireland has suffered what all of us suffer in a fallen creation, the history of both mankind and the Church being full of the martyrs to evil.

    As in the Counter-Reformation what is required is a forward-looking vision which affirms the good, which reinforces safeguards that were bypassed, that punishes those who violated the laws, and that avoids a witch hunt.

  20. Anyone suggesting “that Ireland was (or is) a Jansenist nightmare” is completely ignorant on the topic of Jansenism.

    The errors of Jansenius begin with an orthodox vision of God as the necessary end of human nature.

    From that Jansenius erroneouly concluded that all the primal endowments designated in theology as supernatural or preternatural, including exemption from concupiscence, were simply man’s due.

    As a result of Adam’s sin our nature is stripped of elements essential to its integrity and is radically corrupt and depraved. Concupiscence renders the will powerless to resist; it is purely passive. It cannot escape evil except by a movement of grace superior to and triumphant over the force of concupiscence.

    The soul is at the mercy of the earthly or heavenly attraction, whichever attracts it with the greatest strength. If it come from heaven or from grace, it leads man to virtue. If it come from nature or concupiscence, it dictates him to sin.

    Jansenius see these attractions like the arms of a balance, one cannot rise unless the other be lowered and vice versa.

    Man irresistibly does either good or evil according as he is dominated by grace or by concupiscence, never resisting one or the other.

    Anyone familiar with Calvinism immediately recognizes where this will lead, and why it was condemned.

    The heresy of Jansenism lay in denying the role of free will in the acceptance and use of grace. Jansenism asserts that God’s role in the infusion of grace cannot be resisted and does not require human assent. Catholic doctrine is that “God’s free initiative demands man’s free response” – humans freely assent or refuse God’s gift of grace.

  21. Good morning, Elag – I think you’re right about the need for contrition. I think it’s also true that the Irish are a forgiving people and, above all, an intelligent people. They want an end to the abuse. They want a Church that guarantees that salvation/safety is both present and future. They also want a Church that understands the lives of real men and women, as evidenced by recent plebiscites. If the pope signals he’s going to work on getting his house in order and trust the Irish people’s wisdom to do the same, I think he does himself and them a lot of good. Otherwise, the land of saints and scholars is going to have one Nigerian priest saying a televised Mass for shut-ins as the only active ministry within twenty years.

  22. As my church-skeptic yet devout Catholic mother would say when priests talked of sex, marriage, heaven or hell, “What do they know, have they been there?”

  23. There’s theological Jansenism and the popular version prevalent in Ireland (but not everywhere). The commentator meant the constant sense of sin, to the extreme of feeling unworthy to receive Communion no more than once a month. Also to the extreme of constant scolding of the self and others, constant fear, and total submission as an unworthy person to the authority of the clergy., the clergy being more fond of the concept of hell rather than redemption. Yet this was combated, as in France, by a devotion to the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary, full of love and compassion. Thus in many Irish families that went to mass once a week the Catholicism practiced in the home was one of love, kindness, mutual respect, cooperation, joy. Perhaps this kindness-drenched Catholicism was confined to more prosperous and independent minded families. The Irish families that practiced this kind Catholicism that i have known, including those of my parents, were prosperous. They were also skeptical of the clergy. Yet one of my aunts by marriage was the chief Mass server at her parish because the priest rejected the church’s attitude towards women and picked whichever children were the best at Latin (my aunt’s mother was fluent in Latin). A pre-marital pregnancy by one aunt was treated with kindness and there was no thought of giving up the baby or sending the daughter away. There was a class problem though. Her beloved was a landless laborer. This was problem because the dowry system was meant to assure thee equality of the spouses in the marriage. The aunt would have a good dowry but her beloved had no farm or money. The decision was finally made to give the aunt her dowry and let the couple work it out. They decided to emigrate to New York and join my mother there,. They would marry in New York, which they did. But the influential cousin who sponsored my mother refused to sponsor her pregnant and unmarried sister, so the couple went to Australia where her dowry went a long way and they prospered there.

  24. The pope had a nerve saying that the People of God must repent of the sex scandal. The bishops were at fault, not the church members. He has refused to put into place any method of holding bishops responsible. Preaching and nice words will not make up for the structural failure of the church and his papacy.

  25. This pope is very wrong in saying that the People of God must repent of the sex scandal. The bishops were at fault, not the church members. This pope has refused to put into place any method of holding bishops responsible. “Compassionate sermons and meetings with victims and nice words will not make up for the structural failure of his papacy.

  26. Can you describe the institutional tribunal that investigates and holds bishops responsible for their cover up crimes?

  27. Why would he be scathed, except by fanatics? In all that he says and writes he adheres to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. His ultra-right critics ignore it.

  28. The issue at hand in Ireland and elsewhere:
    Statistics from the Pennsylvania grand jury report back this … : Nearly three-quarters of the offending priests were homosexual; over three-quarters of the abusive priests were pederasts and of those, one fifth (21%) chose adolescent girls as their victims while four-fifths (79%) chose adolescent boys.

    Last week Brad Miner, Senior Editor of The Catholic Thing, and attorney and international child rights advocate Liz Yore made it clear on EWTN’s The World Over that the Catholic Church’s sex abuse crisis is directly linked to homosexuality. “Largely it’s not a pedophile crisis,” Yore said. “We know from the John Jay report, 81-percent of the victims were males, mostly teens. And we know because our subclass of predators are all male, this is a male-on-male crime, and primarily with teens between the ages of 14 to 17. Those are the victims.”

  29. Is it that you don’t understand the difference between same-sex crimes and homosexuality, or is it your mission to smear gay men every chance you get, even if it means lying?
    Nowhere in the Pennsylvania Report does it state that “three-quarters of the offending priests were homosexual.” Nowhere.

  30. “the institutional tribunal that investigates and holds bishops responsible”

    The one promised by Pope Francis, who at the time did not realize that he had to get permission from the CDF to do this?

  31. No, taking personal responsibility as the head of the organization which committed the crimes and cover ups would send the clearest message. The buck always seems to stop at someone else here.

  32. It was not dead, but was so rare it was commented on.

  33. Only ironic if you ascribe to the libel that homosexual is the same as pedophile. Just as if you are admitting as a heterosexual you feel attracted to prepubescent girls.

    Very ironic.

  34. I believe you’re using the term “fanatics” to mean Catholics who adhere to their Church’s teachings.

    No, he does not adhere to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

    He advocates for changes in fundamental teaching, which would be reflected in the Catechism.

  35. The one which could be not be constructed because it ran headlong into doctrinal issues concerning the real authority of bishops as successors to the Apostles.

  36. Since he did not equate same-sex crimes and homosexuality, your critique is off the mark.

    The reports, all of them report somewhere between 2/3 and 85% of the abuse was male on male, aka homosexual acts.

    Given that zero homosexuals or pederasts or any other form of deviation from mature heterosexual orientation were to be ordained, that indicates a collapse in seminary formation.

    Is your goal to correct the problems, or to defend homosexuals in the ministry?

  37. What is “They also want a Church that understands the lives of real men and women, as evidenced by recent plebiscites.” code for?

  38. Two very important discussions by well known US clergy:
    1. “Cardinal Blase Cupich, archbishop of Chicago, will lead a session titled ‘The Dignity and Beauty of Sexual Love: Finding New Language for Ancient Truths’.”

    2. “Meanwhile, the Rev. James Martin, editor at large of America magazine and author of ‘Building a Bridge,’ will discuss ‘Showing Welcome and Respect in our Parishes for ‘LGBT’ People and their Families’.”

    Opening up the Church to incorporate new ways of seeing are important in bringing what the Roman Catholic Church teaches into relevance, reality, and into the heart of Jesus.

  39. What the Catholic Church teaches seems pretty relevant already, as the current crisis illustrates what not paying attention to it leads to.

  40. What’s ironic is an atheist lecturing a Catholic on morality.

  41. That explains quite a bit.

    You should probably stop doing self-revelation.

  42. So, the bishops are not part of the People of God?

  43. I’m just citing other reports, articles and sources.
    Maybe you just ignore the facts and see things the way you want them to be seen.

  44. Have you been trained by Jesuits?

    They were “same-sex crimes” (i.e. homosexual crimes) and not caused by “homosexuality” because the men committing these crimes did not self identify as “homosexuals”. That works.

    In one sense, this is true. The Church does not identify or categorise people by disordered sexual predilections and tendencies. What is clear, is that the Church’s crisis is most likely the result of men with “deep seated homosexual tendencies” being admitted to the priesthood and their actions being covered or ignored by clericalism and by bishops who appear to share similar tendencies and/or who are not chaste themselves.

  45. Her argument is sophistry intended to deflect attention from the real cause of the crisis.

  46. You made the statement. I’m telling you it’s not true. So perhaps you should actually read the Report instead of reading secondary sources that confirm your a priori biases.

  47. Same sex acts (i.e. homosexual acts), perpetrated by men on teenage boys or young seminarians, is what exactly?

  48. How the term “differently ordered” squares with the natural law and Divinely revealed moral law is a mystery. What would same sex acts be ordered towards apart from sterile, fruitless pleasure? This is why there’s an attack on Humanae Vitae, a corruption of an authentic understanding of the “law of gradualness” and the introduction of moral proportionalism. It’s all being so blatantly ‘hidden’ under our very noses.

  49. Pedophilia. Which ignores gender of a victim and focuses on opportunities given an abuser. As seen in every scandal involving child sexual abuse. But that requires being honest and knowledgeable about the situation. You are neither. No sense in bothering to pretend you care about facts.

    But by your statements attraction to adolescent and teenager girls is evidently a normal part of being heterosexual adult. Very curious there.

    Still doesn’t explain the massive international systematic coverup and obstruction of justice. “Big gay conspiracy” doesn’t quite cut it. But then again, you weren’t expecting to make a rational or logical appeal here. A church protection conspiracy makes perfect sense. Especially given all the unrelated scandals where they did the same thing.

    But as I said before, you are not interested in facts or making sensible arguments.

  50. Translation: agree to homosexual “marriage”, abortion and artificial contraception and we’ll think about returning to the faith.

  51. Jack simply asked the question: Same sex acts (i.e. homosexual acts), perpetrated by men on teenage boys or young seminarians, is what exactly?

    What you’re ignoring – as is the liberal press – is that between 75% and 85% of recorded sex assaults in the Church were committed by men against post-pubescent males. That isn’t pedophilia.

  52. How the term “objectively disordered” squares with the natural law is no mystery. In fact it comes straight out of it.

    “CCC 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”

    It is interesting to read the proponents of the supremacy of conscience squawking loudly about certain bishops and priests placing their own consciences above civil, moral, and Canon law.

    Apparently the irony of their own sauce being enjoyed by the gander never strikes them.

  53. Asked and answered. So again, by your logic you find an attraction to adolescent and teenage girls to be a normal part of being heterosexual. Something very curious indeed.

    Pedophiles make no distinction of the gender of victims, just the age and opportunity/access. A person who isn’t a lazy bigot understands this.

    You do not.

    Still not getting to the part where you cough up an even plausible explanation for a long history of similar behavior covering up scandals and obstructing justice for a panopoly of issues besides sexual abuse.

    Again, people who aren’t lazy bigots understand where the fault lies.

    You do not.

    I can’t take you seriously in any conceivable fashion. You have demonstrated the kind of immoral malicious dishonesty churches and their supporters will go to in order avoid culpability for acting badly.

  54. It’s fascinating how you lot take a simple answer to a divorce question and create and entire mythology of humanity and humanity’s intimate relationships.

  55. Again, people who aren’t lazy bigots understand where the fault lies.

    That leaves you out, of course.

  56. That “mythology” is tightly wound with both the natural law and the revealed law, held by the large majority of the Christian, Jewish, and Islamic faiths.

  57. Where is the discussion about the flaws in the history and theology of the RCC and Christianity in general?

  58. A starting point:

    The Apostles’ Creed 2018: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

    Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
    and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
    human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??

    I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
    preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
    named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
    girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

    Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
    the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

    He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
    a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
    Jerusalem.

    Said Jesus’ story was embellished and “mythicized” by
    many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
    and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
    Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
    grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
    and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
    called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

    Amen
    (references used are available upon request)

  59. On the contrary, bishops are most certainly responsible. They’ve been ignoring Vatican instructions (for whatever reasons) for years.

    Canon law requires that clerics “observe perfect and perpetual continence for the sake of the kingdom of heaven”, thus the vows of celibacy and agreement to remain unmarried and abstinent throughout their lives.

    In 1961, instructions were given that homosexual men should not be ordained. This was left to bishops to enforce and most did not, holding homosexuals to the same standards of celibate chastity as heterosexual seminarians.

    A new policy in 2005 allowed that men with “transitory” homosexual leanings may be ordained deacons following three years of prayer and chastity. However, men with “deeply rooted homosexual tendencies” or those who were sexually active could not be ordained.

    In 2008, The Vatican issued a directive to implement psychological screening for candidates for the priesthood. Conditions listed for exclusion from the priesthood include “uncertain sexual identity” and “deep-seated homosexual tendencies.”

    In May this year, Pope Francis is reported to have said about men with homosexual tendencies: “Keep an eye on the admissions to seminaries, keep your eyes open. If in doubt, better not let them enter.”

    Once again you’re failing to distinguish between pedophilia and being sexually attracted to teenagers. The fact is, for all your wailing and cries of “bigot”, the predominant feature of this scandal is priests with homosexual desires inflicting their lustful appetites on young boys. Those men who assaulted young girls are equally reprehensible but they, like pedophiles, were in a minority. And, yes, shock horror, many men do find teenager girls sexually attractive.

  60. Jack asked about the new favorite expression of homosexualists now doing the rounds,“”differently ordered”. .

  61. A truly stupid comment. The whole is not the same as a part.

  62. You filled my bullcrap quota for the day.

    Pedophilia is not homosexuality. I will post various sites refuting your malicious bigoted dishonest garbage, but I know you won’t be bothered to read it.
    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lgbtp-adding-letter/

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-kort-phd/homosexuality-and-pedophi_b_1932622.html

    https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2011/10-anti-gay-myths-debunked

    Canon law is not the same as an assertion of fact. I could care less what you think their doctrine is here, nor is it relevant.

    Nor have you done a thing to cough up a plausible reason for the cover ups and obstruction of justice done to protect the church reputation from abusers. Because you are too spineless to admit the problem is a church which feels its above the law.

    You are doing nothing more than indulging in personal bigotry and capitalizing on a story of widespread contempt for rule of law and the lives of others which has typified the Church’s behavior for centuries. You are immoral dirt.

  63. No one said it is. The reference was to Ireland of the past, up to the 50’s and 60’s. during this time women in particular were treated very badly by the clergy.

  64. Jansenist is a popular, if inaccurate, term for rigorist, often mean spirited. Ireland was under the grip of a rigorist Catholicism and many experienced a priesthood that was mean-spirited, intrusive and dictatorial. On the other hand there was an historic influence of Jansenism on Ireland. This is a nice precis of a scholar’s exploration of Irish Jansenism (as opposed to Irish rigorism that had non-Jamsenist roots): https://muse.jhu.edu/article/384332

  65. Yes indeed, it is an immense wound on all three of those ancient faiths. No matter how many folks believe something, doesn’t make it true. As we’ve seen many times over as the world has spun round to modern times; flat earth, on the backs of elephants, with a literal hell below, encircled by both the sun and the moon, etc. A Roman Church with the power of life and death over God’s children that is responsible. possibly for as many as 150 million human deaths in its 1700 or so years of existence. Islam with a similar history. Judaism still playing out such a belief here today.

  66. What makes it true is that it is revealed.

    “A Roman Church with the power of life and death over God’s children that
    is responsible. possibly for as many as 150 million human deaths in its
    1700 or so years of existence.” is simply anti-Catholic hogwash.

    You have a taste for cults, and can shop for the revelation that spins your propeller.

    Traditional Christians, Orthodox Jews, and Muslims are more or less stuck with what we’ve got.

  67. Just so we understand it’s not Jansenism, Jansenist, or anything related to Jansenism.

    https://www.history.ox.ac.uk/people/professor-laurence-brockliss

    Brockliss early in his now ended career made some hay writing about Jansenism in France and suddenly, in later books, found Jansenism under every bed.

    At this point Ireland is largely a post-Christian country, especially among the young, sliding into the same slough as the rest of Western Europe.

  68. Just so we all understand we are not talking about Jansenism.

  69. So, you’re saying they are not part of the People of God.

    If that’s not what you’re saying, you need to precise your original comment, which reeks of “us and them”.

  70. My sensibilities are fine.

    I just don’t want to have enough information to profile you.

  71. It’s obviously been adopted by folks who can’t read.

  72. “the Church’s crisis is most likely the result of men with ‘deep seated homosexual tendencies’ being admitted to the priesthood”

    How did they get past the Holy Spirit? Is She not very bright, or just plain gullible? Or are you suggesting that She also might be intrinsically disordered?

  73. Ah, here we go. In the McCarrick thread, we were discussing the John Jay Report. You asked me to cite something from it, but before I could do so, somehow all the comments were gone (at least that’s what I saw on my laptop).

    But I didn’t forget your request. Nor did I forget those 81% homosexual abuse encounters. (That’s NOT to ignore the young girls that were abused.) But meanwhile, Miner and Yore — and Parker12 — are correct

    Which takes us to John Jay 2004. Page Six says: “Overall, 81% of victims were male, and 19% female. Male victims tended to be older than female victims.” So you got 81% homosexual abuse encounters. Period.

    “The only way to argue that gay priests are not largely responsible for the Church’s man-boy sex crisis is to choke the life out of ordinary language itself.” — Hoover Institution researcher Mary Eberstadt.

    But amazingly, the homosexual mess did NOT diminish. The gay priests didn’t even stop hunting the boys down! So the updated 2011 JJ-Report winds up saying the same number (81% — see near the bottom of page 9), and the same targets (post-pub boys — see the bottom of page 11).

    But like I said, the pro-gay faction went on a PR Red Alert after JJ-2004, and they scrambled to DEFLECT the painfully clear homosexual aspect with a “psycho-sexual” snow-jobber. But some Catholics saw through the scam.

    “Is the (2011) report telling us that a majority of the abusers were heterosexual priests abusing teenage boys? This strains credulity. I sense an agenda for the homosexual priesthood is behind this conclusion.”
    — Rev. CJ McCloskey III, “Reactions to the John Jay Report”, Crisis Magazine, 05-09-2011.

    So there you go Monica. Also, here are the 2004 and 2011 John Jay Reports for readers who want to see them:

    http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_27_JohnJay_revised/2004_02_27_John_Jay_Main_Report_Optimized.pdf

    http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/child-and-youth-protection/upload/The-Causes-and-Context-of-Sexual-Abuse-of-Minors-by-Catholic-Priests-in-the-United-States-1950-2010.pdf

    (The quotations from Eberhart and McCloskey are “Hat-Tip” from the Catholic League’s Dr. William A. Donohue’s online paper, “John Jay 2011 Report on Sexual Abuse: A Critical Analysis.”)

  74. I’ve already read the JJ Report — both of them.
    The gay priests gotta keep their hands (and other assorted body parts) off them boys.

  75. “the real authority of bishops as successors to the Apostles”

    Good to know that the Apostles authorized the bishops’ cover-up of the activity of predatory priests. Your profound insights never fail to amaze, BobBob. You will be immortalized as one of the founding saints of the “smaller, holier Church”, bless your precious little heart.

  76. All the marriages in the Bible — even the polygamous ones — were exclusively male-female gender-complementarian, just like Jesus referred to. Not one same-sex marriage, not one homosexual marriage, AT ALL.

    Good thing you moved on quickly.

  77. Are there bigger suckers than the Roman Catholic faithful ?

    ” Suckers ” isn’t really the right word.

    They’re ” brainwashed “.

    Their brainwashed parents shuttled them to catechism – where they became brainwashed.

    And the cycle repeats.

    ” 14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. ”

    The Kingdom of Heaven – is that where priest/sex abusers send the ” little children ” whom they raped ?

  78. Luckily for the Roman Centurion, Jesus didn’t feel the same about same sex relationships as you do.

  79. Keep deluding yourself that it is “anti-Catholic hogwash.” Cognitive dissonance isn’t easily dealt with otherwise.

  80. Is it really? I don’t think the RCC has effectively cleaned house anywhere. Please don’t shine any light in the corners or look under any rugs.

  81. She won’t reply – your response doesn’t fit her narrative.
    She’ll probably make a snide comment to eblabulus on how some of us don’t understand confused, psycho-sexual, pseudo-magnetic orientation default that some of these fellas repressed when they were young; and then blame trump for the whole issue of abuse….

  82. Our priests have not talked about those four things from the pulpit in ages. I believe that is one of the reasons we are now where we are. I remember a priest in the 60s hitting the edge of the pulpit and yelling: are you through with contraception?!

  83. In addition, all of the polygamous relationships were the idea of man; not God. And in every instance, something goes horribly wrong because of mans desire to go against the will and plan of God.

  84. Show me one sentence in either the 2004 or 2022 reports that says the offenders were homosexual — that is, that their sexual orientations were homosexual — and I will agree. But you can’t because it’s not there. First, it was beyond the scope of the investigation. Second, because what the report describes are same-sex crimes and their variations, which is not at all the same as homosexuality. Your deep-seated homophobia blinds you to the truth.
    It seems clear that many of those who want to use this crisis to throw shade at gay priests have deep-seated sexual issues they need to address.

  85. Your comment, eternallystumped, comes off rather silly in the face of Judas Iscariot.

    What becomes clear from it is that you’ve been wishing, mulling, and fomenting for quite some time independently of any abuse crisis, and this seems like an opportune time to dust off your pet peeves and the axes you’ve been grinding to present your preconceived notions on how to disassemble the Church you are not at all fond of; a classic former National Catholic Reporter Comments aficionado.

  86. Same-sex crime always involves homosexual acts.

    Show me one sentence in either the 2004 or 2022 reports that says the acts were not homosexual.

    Claiming that a report which describes same-sex crimes does not support that conclusion seems to indicate an agenda other than sorting out what happened with a view towards preventing a recurrence.

    While I support the conclusion that chaste homosexuals in the ministry should not be cast into the darkness, ensuring that they are not repeated in the face of the statistics and the longstanding requirements of Canon Law and the guidance implementing that they should not have been ordained in the first place seems compelling.

  87. How did Judas Iscariot get past the Holy Spirit, eternallystumped?

    Why given the fact that the Church teaches and has taught since its inception that good and evil commingle in this world, even in the Church, would anyone write “How did they get past the Holy Spirit? Is She not very bright, or just plain gullible? Or are you suggesting that She also might be intrinsically disordered?” unless he were an enemy of the Catholic Church.

  88. You do understand that no one takes the “Roman Centurion” spiel seriously outside of the LBGT community, right?

  89. True that. Whenever I hear it, it tells me all I need to know about the kind of mentality I’m conversing with.

  90. And has been pointed out to you numerous times, not that you care…

    The Boy Scouts had a molestation problem for decades, abuse acted out on teenaged boys by men who are certifiably heterosexual. Gay people were banned from the organization. Scoutmasters were usually heterosexually married. If you asked them, just like the Roman priests, they would have declared theirknown heterosexuality.

    The sex of the victims does not speak about homosexuality, or the sexual orientation of the perpetrators.

  91. Why. It’s a homosexual act perpetrated on a teenage boy by a person known to be heterosexual in his community, family, and church.

    Just like in the Boy Scouts.

    If only the issues of sexuality were the simple black and white ideas of anti gay religionists, hiding behind their alleged faith, desperate to deflect attention away from institutional abuse that is centuries old, aided and abetted By the hierarchy of that very same institution.

    It’s so much easier to blame everything on the mythical gay Goliath, getting their orders from Gay Central, who infiltrate holy institutions like the RCC in order to force the Big Gay (and enirely mythical) Agenda onto the poor victimized heterosexual and Christian majority.

    Itsdisbolical, I tell you. Diabolical.

    The question is, of course, exactly who the devil is?

  92. “How did Judas Iscariot get past the Holy Spirit”

    Judas was part of the plan. By your logic children being raped by priests is part of God’s plan. Your insights never fail to amaze, BobBob. Truly, you will be one of the founding saints of the “smaller, holier Church”, bless your precious little heart.

  93. “Certifiably heterosexual”? Seriously? Please tell me who specifically certified ’em. But meanwhile, this thread isn’t about the Boy Scouts. They’re already destroyed. They’re done.

    Catholics are now faced with the fact that they can NOT afford to buy into any more gay excuses. This is seriously bad trouble they are experiencing. Catholics can no longer talk their way past the 2004 and 2011 John Jay numbers. (They can’t talk their way past the Bible either!).

    This is a really tough issue for a lot of people. But Cardinal Burke is correct: “It was clear after the studies following the 2002 sexual abuse crisis that most of the acts of abuse were in fact homosexual acts committed with adolescent young men. There was a studied attempt to either overlook or to deny this. Now it seems clear in light of these recent terrible scandals that indeed there is a homosexual culture, not only among the clergy but even within the hierarchy, which needs to be purified at the root. It is of course a tendency that is disordered.”

  94. Since the Judeo-Christian deity knows every single thing that has ever happened and will ever happen, by your thought process, constantlydiscombobulated, that deity is responsible either by action or inaction for every good and evil that has ever taken place: rapes, murders, WWI, the plague, on and on and on.

    Voltaire’s “Candide, ou l’Optimisme” which discusses among other things historical happenings, such as the Seven Years’ War and the 1755 Lisbon earthquake.

    It’s neither a new nor amazing allegation, but it does explain your generally negative attitude towards religion.

    The explanation in the Abrahamic religions involves Adam, Eve, and the casting out from Paradise as a result of disobedience.

    Since that’s over your pay grade, I won’t bother going through it in detail.

  95. “It’s a homosexual act perpetrated on a teenage boy by a person known to be heterosexual in his community, family, and church.”

    That certainly explained the 81% in the John Jay Report.

    Not.

  96. Explain the term “certifiably heterosexual.”

  97. I guess you’ve at least achieved one goal: know thyself.

  98. No, he’s just another bishop in a Christian church. Being a 21st Century Christian, I know that there is no future anti-Christ coming, as the coded message in the Revelation of John was regarding his own time period. It isn’t prophesy.

  99. So, your gullibility has limits.

    That’s a start.

  100. If you refuse the lesson I’m trying to teach you, I cannot help you.

  101. Not true. Plenty of modern New Testament scholars agree.

    Moving on.

  102. David, we have through this a number of times.

    A few queer exegetes agree.

    No one but their target audience takes them or their exegesis seriously.

  103. “1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.” (St Paul wrote this to St Timothy chapter 4: verses 1 to verse 3)

  104. Why Anti-gay evangelical Christians certify it all the ine. Heteros3xually married, you are not gay anymore. that,s YIU all over.

    And the Boy Scouts are not relevant to you for the simple reason that you are no more interested in understanding the sexual abuse problem than you are interested in actually being a good Christian, instead of the weaponized Christian that you are. The Boy Scouts are relevant because that solution has already been tried, and it didn’t work, becuase it was based upon the kind of anusive lies that you delight in telling yourself, as do your fellow travelers, lkke Mouth of Bob and Parker and Tommy Boy, who have a similar lack of interest— nay, INVESTMENT— in not understanding the problem…

    Thus guaranteeing that the problem will continue and continue, much to the harm of children everywhere.

    Here is a question not one of you will consider. Why is it that the Catholic Church seems to attract, encourage, and harbor so many pederasts, homosexual hating homosexuals, sexually confused and sexually mature men? Why has it had his problem for over 1000 years? There is no GAy Central, there are no standing marching orders issued by gay central to infiltrate the Catholic Church. All of that is just another figment of your vile imagination. And despite the intentions of the Catholic Church regarding gay people— equally vile— they STILL have to problem? And how isn’t god calls these deeply disordered men to the priesthood, and doesn’t seem to care about either his church or the child victims? And how is that the hierarchy has been intent on hiding this?

    Cardinal Burke? really? It isn’t homosexual men that has corrupted your church, Cardinal. The essence of the corruption lies within the church, as you say: “Now it seems clear in light of these recent terrible scandals that indeed there is a homosexual culture, not only among the clergy but even within the hierarchy, which needs to be purified at the root. It is of course a tendency that is disordered.”

    Even when he’s intending to lie through his yellowed teeth, he can’t help but speak the truth.

  105. No, what your church did was certify that these disordered pederasts and homosexual hating homosexuals were called by god to the priesthood of that church.

  106. Nope, and that’s been pointed out as erroneous so many time before it is now just clearly anti-Catholic animus by a rather nasty individual.

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