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Canadian evangelical school adapts LGBTQ rules, says donations, enrollment are up

Late-day sun illuminates people on the Trinity Western University campus in Langley, British Columbia. Photo courtesy of TWU

(RNS) — When the administration of Azusa Pacific University dropped the section of its student code of conduct that banned same-sex relationships last August, reaction was swift.

American Christian media and church leaders were quick to accuse the evangelical school of caving to societal pressure and compromising its Christian identity.

The response prompted the university’s board to reverse the change, affirming the definition of  marriage as being between “one man and one woman.”

About the same time, Trinity Western University — Canada’s premier evangelical university — also made a change related to same-sex relationships, but in a different way and with different results.

In TWU’s case, the school kept its community covenant, which requires students to “abstain” from “sexual intimacy that violates the sacredness of marriage between a man and a woman.”

But signing the covenant is now voluntary.

Over the past year, reaction to the change has been mostly positive, said James Tweedy, TWU’s director of marketing, and support for the university remains strong.

“We haven’t experienced a negative impact on donations,” he said. “In fact, both donations and enrolment continue to be stronger than in prior years.”

Overall, Tweedy added, “the response has been largely positive and has been seen as a necessary step towards creating a true gospel-centric community.”

Trinity Western University President Bob Kuhn speaks to media after oral arguments at the Supreme Court of Canada, in Ottawa, Ontario, on Nov. 30, 2017. Photo courtesy of TWU

The change followed a ruling two months earlier by Canada’s Supreme Court that the law societies of British Columbia and Ontario had the power to refuse to accredit a law school TWU wanted to create — because of that covenant.

The court ruled the covenant discriminated against LGBTQ students since they would be unable to sign it to gain admission to the law school.

TWU President Bob Kuhn declined a request for an interview.

But in a podcast interview with the evangelical magazine Faith Today, he noted the covenant still applies to faculty and staff, who have to sign it annually.

By making the covenant voluntary for students, Kuhn said, TWU was clarifying “it does not discriminate in terms of enrollment for any person from any belief or any LGBTQ or other group.”

He went on to say that LGBTQ students at TWU tell him they feel “welcome and embraced and supported” at the school.

Kuhn told Faith Today that some LGBTQ students have told him TWU is “a warmer and more welcoming place to come out” than public universities.  

Trinity Western University is in Langley, British Columbia, near Vancouver. Image courtesy of Google Maps

Two other major Canadian Christian universities have also become more accommodating when it comes to same-sex relationships.

The King’s University in Edmonton, Alberta, a Christian Reformed Church school, doesn’t have an official position on marriage or sexual orientation, said Nikolas Vander Kooy, manager of marketing and brand.

Instead, the school developed a “statement of inclusion” that says King’s is a school where everyone is asked to “consciously cultivate a safe, inclusive environment of mutual respect, where all may belong and flourish.”

At Canadian Mennonite University in Winnipeg, sexuality is seen “as a gift from God,” the school “encourages healthy relationships in both dating and marriage,” and marriage is seen as the proper context for sexuality, according to President Cheryl Pauls.

Students are not required to sign a covenant, but they “are expected to honor the community’s ethos and well-being in caring for the interests and dignity of each other,” she said.

Other schools have taken a different approach.

Tyndale University College, an evangelical school in Toronto, requires students to affirm a statement of life and conduct that defines marriage as an “exclusive, lifelong partnership of love and faithfulness between a man and a woman.”

For President Gary Nelson, the statement is “aspirational.”

“We want to express our values clearly, so students know what they are coming to,” he told Religion News Service.

Redeemer University in Ancaster, Ontario, also a Christian Reformed school, requires students to agree to its student life and conduct policy, which forbids, among other things, “sexual intimacies which occur outside of a heterosexual marriage.”

According to Josh Sieders, who directs marketing and communications at the school, Redeemer expects students to abide by the code, which is under review. The school also has “grace for students.”

The issues, he said, “are complex.”

About the author

John Longhurst

166 Comments

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  • I can already hear the pious reaction from the right:

    Of course enrollment is up – sin is always rewarded in this sinful world. Abstinence is hard, but gay people must take up their cross and abstain if they want to enter the kingdom of heaven.

    A cross, it should be noted, they would never impose on themselves.

  • “The change followed a ruling two months earlier by Canada’s Supreme Court that the law societies of British Columbia and Ontario had the power to refuse to accredit a law school TWU wanted to create – because of that covenant.”

    “The court ruled the covenant discriminated against LGBTQ students since they would be unable to sign it to gain admission to the law school.”

    This sort of thing is happening all across the English-speaking Commonwealth, what had been the British Commonwealth of Nations.

    The sources are two: all of them started with an established state church, which the United States had never had.

    None of them have a written constitution with an analogue of the Bill of Rights.

    The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms has proven a poor substitute as this article demonstrates.

  • “A cross…they would never impose on themselves.”

    That is simply a flat out lie.

    I know Christians who are tempted by homosexuality who lead lives of abstinence, just as i know of single heterosexual Christians who practice abstinence.

    Your smug, condescending narrative does not ring true to observant Christians.

  • Yes.

    Originally they had an established state church, which persecuted dissenting Christians.

    Now they have an established state pro-LGBT “church”, which again persecutes dissenting Christians.

  • In your worldview heterosexuals who abstain still have the option to marry should they ever choose to no longer abstain, an option you do not allow gay people. You present, therefore, a false equivalence.

  • How are Christians being persecuted here? Oh right, they are not allowing you to treat others like crap in public and expecting civility. Oh the horror.

    Can you bear such a burden as not being able to persecute others?

  • I think making the signing of the covenant voluntary is a good idea. People should not be pressured into making promises that they may not be prepared to keep.

  • It’s safe to say there are much more Proggies, Libz, Ashiests, Eggnogshticks & Nones-sensicals in Christian Reformed Church institutions in Canada – than there are born-from-above, fired-up and die-hard followers of THE Christ Jesus of the gospels, epistles and revelation.

  • Floydlee said the same thing last year and I disagreed then. I was wrong. It’s better in the States, I see that now.

  • Hey Spuddie – if you can’t treat people like s— then what’s the point of being a Christian? Christianity has always needed a group of human beings to look down on and mistreat.

  • The Charter of Rights and Freedoms is part of the 1982 Constitution added at the same time that the 1867 Constitution was patriated.

    If Canada had an established state church then it would have actually had two – one of which would be Catholic.

  • When the Constitutional Act of 1791 was promulgated it was interpreted to mean that the Church was the established Church in the Canadas. The Church of England was established by law in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, but in Lower Canada, the presence of a Roman Catholic majority made establishment politically unwise.

    In Upper Canada dissenters such as Methodist minister Egerton Ryerson agitated against establishment. Following the Upper Canada Rebellion and the creation of the united Province of Canada, the unpopularity of the Anglican-dominated Family Compact made establishment a moot point. The Church was disestablished in Nova Scotia in 1850 and Upper Canada in 1854. At the time of Confederation in 1867 the Church of England had been disestablished throughout British North America.

  • Very important point there. Things are happening. Christ is healing and cleansing gays and straights alike, and His power is so utterly EXTREME, that it can destroy homosexuality in people who had previously convinced me that change was impossible. (I saw this happen. 1 Cor. 6-11 is utterly real.)

    It’s wide-open happening, even today. People are getting free, living holy, chains are getting brokenf, and people are no longer being silent about what happened to them. The secular media is scared to discuss this, but there’s an astonishing EPIDEMIC of people getting healed and restored.

    By the way, (for our gay discussion partners), the Cross is never an “imposition.” Anyone who seriously takes up the Cross of Christ, is coming into contact with an immeasurably intense Love and a terrible, utterly overwhelming Power. These LGBTs, both Canadian and American, better get ready for Jesus to re-write their bios.

  • So “they are not allowing you to treat others like crap in public” while you and your friends can call Christians “bigots” for their religious beliefs.

    Nice.

  • Hey ‘Til Tuesday – if you can’t call Christians practicing their beliefs “treat(ing) people like s—” then what’s the point of posting?

    I note reading your posts that your two favorite nouns are “Evangelical” and “Trump”, and you don’t appear to use them in neutral or positive ways.

  • I know there are individual exceptions, but I assume you were indoctrinated with your intensely toxic delusional thinking and beliefs while you were still a young child. But thankfully, “Things are happening. . . . The secular non-secular media is scared to discuss this, but there’s an astonishing EPIDEMIC of people getting healed and restored.”

  • By not accrediting a law school because it adheres to Christian sexual morality and does not accept state sponsored LGBT orthodoxy.

    LGBT Borg: “Resistance is futile! You will be assimilated! Kneel before the rainbow flag!”

  • You mean by not granting special favors under the law it had no reason to expect. Not getting special permission to persecute others.

    The school violated the nation’s civil rights laws and accreditation requirements with their discriminatory policies. Freedom of religion does not create a license to ignore laws protecting everyone nor one to attack others in the name of your faith. The world does not revolve around your excuses to be malicious to others.

    They are not persecuted, just whiny. How dare they persecute Christians by not letting them persecute others! /s

  • why would a homosexual want to go to a Christian school anyway; they seem to be more interested in rebelling against Christ

  • Tell me Tater-Tot, how is not having sex with someone “persecution”? Are you insinuating that homosexuals are incapable of abstinence, like the Canadian courts? That’s more of an insult than being asked to act with respect toward ones self and others

  • That one is easy, M. Don’t go to the school if you don’t want to follow their rules. There is no law forcing them to attend that particular university. It’s a free choice.

  • The fact that you think what people do in the privacy of their homes along consenting adults is any of your business. I am insinuating that your concern at all is immoral. Going after people under such circumstances is persecution.

    Not being able to persecute others is not being persecuted yourself. It’s just being whiny. The school wants special privilege to break the law and is disappointed they don’t get it. Tough luck. They are not oppressed.

  • Why is asking someone who CHOOSES to attend a Christian university that doesn’t allow fornication, to not fornicate, persecution? Go to a different school.

  • It’s not what I think, Spud. It’s what the university doesn’t want them to do
    Again, how is that persecution when they choose to attend that particular universitY. Nothing in Canada forces them to.

  • The university wanted special dispensation to violate the country’s civil rights laws. They are annoyed they did not get it. That is not oppression. That is just being presumptuous.

    ” Nothing in Canada forces them to.”

    Canada has no duty to accredit schools which do not follow the laws concerning it. The school could have continued as it was, but it would not have the government approval they wanted. They wanted a special privilege to break the law and are disappointed they could not. Oh well. Tough luck.

  • A Christian university does not need national accreditation if it won’t follow the laws pertaining to it. They could have continued as usual. But they were not entitled to a government granted status to do so.

  • My atheist son sends my grandson to a Jesuit Catholic High School in New Orleans. It’s a superior education compared to public schools. And they teach real science there.

  • Thus saith the Borg:

    “We will not allow you to order your own affairs in accordance with your religious beliefs. You must submit! All hail LGBT orthodoxy! All kneel before our rainbow flag! And if you object to our boot stomping your face into the dirt, you’re a whiner and a bigot!”

  • You want to reduce your entire faith into acting like raging dillholes to people, that’s on you. But don’t moan about the consequences of it or ask for special favors from everyone.

    I thought you Christianfolk had sincere beliefs and strong convictions. You didn’t need approval from anyone else or the government to do what you believed. You are prepared to be martyrs and face whatever happens for the good cause and in the fight God’s battles.

    But I guess not.

    If they had moral and ethical convictions, they would not worry about government accreditation and just continue their policies.

    People like you are nothing but spineless bigots who want to be treated special from everyone else. Too afraid to deal with the consequences of your beliefs and expecting to be able to harm people with impunity. Tough luck. You are not oppressed, you are not persecuted. You are just a whinybaby.

    According to your arguments I am well within my right to sacrifice you and your family to my dark lord and master Cthulhu. After all the right to harm others in the service of your faith is an expression of religious freedom. Charging me for murder would be oppressing and persecuting me for my beliefs!

  • You still did not answer my question – for the 3rd time – why would someone want to go to a school with terms they don’t agree with?

  • again Tater – Again, how is that persecution when they choose to attend that particular universitY. Nothing in Canada forces them to.

  • The school doesn’t need government accreditation. If they want to make a stand for being bigots, they should not demand special favors under the law. Nothing in Canada requires them to be accredited.

  • And again, how is it persecution when they don’t have to attend that university and it is a prerequisite for attendance? Are you suggesting homosexuals are unable to control themselves?

  • I would venture most don’t choose to go there. But their parents want them to attend. Your average 17-18 year old doesn’t have much financial independence to truly make the decisions on their own most times.

  • Asked and answered. See above. I would guess one of three things:
    1. Hoping against hope that the University is staffed by reasonable people (least likely)

    2. It is not so much their choice as the one their parents want them to go to and are willing to pay tuition for. (Most likely)

    3. Your average 17-18 year old raised by Evangelical Christians barely knows themselves in that regard. Its not like education about sex or sexuality is particularly honest and open from that crowd. The college setting makes their orientation more apparent to themselves.
    [In my day, plenty of people who “were in the closet” in HS came out by their freshmen year of college]

  • and how does that make it persecution – particularly if their families are in favour of the university?

  • So, that would be their parents persecuting them, not the school. No one is forced to attend a university

  • The school is looking to expel them for being gay. Their parents simply put them in the situation.

    That being said, its a moot point. The school preferred government accreditation over discrimination.

  • Singling out gay students for treatment which is different from others isn’t persecution?

    Anyway, the school decided it was not an issue worth defending and choose accreditation over discrimination.

  • Who is forcing them to attend the school. If there is something offensive in a movie, I don’t see it. Why should homosexuals be catered to more than any Christian in a Christian university? Why is expecting them to act like a Christian persecution?

  • The school is asking them to adhere to the same values they expect of everyone else. How is that persecution?

  • Frankly the objection you have is that they dropped the policy. Which makes no sense if it were unobtrusive and the school didn’t feel like defending it.

  • No, My objection is homosexuals being treated differently because they cannot seem to adhere to abstinence, which is required of everyone else. Are you suggesting that homosexuals cannot control themselves as well as everyone else?

  • How is asking them to adhere to the same moral restrictions being treated differently.
    Are you suggesting that homosexuals are unable to control themselves as the rest of the population?

  • people placating to the homosexuals decided children needed to be sexualized and be taught immorality

  • Would they make the same exception for married couples as they do for hetero students? Of course not.

  • Your objection here is that they are no longer being singled out. That the school choose not to discriminate. How terrible of you.

  • You didn’t answer my question. Are you saying that homosexuals are less able to control themselves sexually than Christians and because of such, they are being persecuted?

  • You didn’t answer my question. Are you saying that homosexuals are less able to control themselves sexually than Christians and because of such, they are being persecuted?.

  • In 1758, the CoE was established in Nova Scotia (so was Nova Scotia as a British colony) and the following year St. Paul’s was permitted to collect church rates from parishioners but Protestant dissenters were also exempted by law. Catholics were treated more harshly as Nova Scotia was in the process of getting rid of those pesky French-speaking Acadians. The CoE was legislatively established in NB and PEI but had limited meaning. There was no COE officially established in Upper Canada. Disestablishment of COE in the eastern provinces related to the commutation of Protestant Clergy Reserves that were established by the Constitutional Act of 1791 – the solution to what was mainly an Upper Canada issue after a number of disputes by different denominations as to entitlement and then subsequent amended agreements as to how the reserves would be distributed but this had not arisen as an issue until the giving out of free land ended.

    There were actually 2 rebellions – Upper and Lower Canada – and the consequence of both rebellions was the Canada Act which established responsible government – no more psuedo-oligarchies. As part of the 1841 Canada Act, schools were addressed with the aim of establishing a Christian but nondenominational school system. However, political realities intervened leading to a dual system in Quebec while Ontario (Upper Canada) allowed for a divided state supported school system, one non-denominational and the other confessional (Catholic).

    In terms of British established churches, not uniquely Canadian – happened in the colonies of the US as well, with Virginia as the American stand-in for Nova Scotia.

  • SPEAKING OF WHICH:

    (1) “‘The L.A. Gay & Lesbian Center squeezes value out of every donation and makes great use of more than 3,000 hard working and dedicated volunteers.’ … President Lori Jean earns her salary of $241,923, which may seem like a lot, but is only 0.62 percent of the annual budget, one of the lowest rates of any gay charity executive.”

    (2) “The Center [The Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender Community Center] provides a true home for the LGBT community, where all are welcome and all can access an ever-growing variety of programs, support services and ways to connect. Your donations make it possible to continue to evolve and provide our community with a home to celebrate, heal, dream and organize. … Support our work, and support the LGBT community! Your donations allow us to continue to provide services to individuals, youth and families, and to develop new programs to support the changing needs of our community. Make a donation today to ensure that our doors remain open 365 days a year, for many years to come.”

    Source: (1) Japhy Grant, “The 5 Best Gay Charities”, Queerty, December 17, 2008. (2) Lesbian & Gay Community Services Centerm “Support The Center”.

  • I actually did. Pointing out the differences here. Heterosexuals don’t even follow those guidelines hence the exception for married couples. So expecting gets to do so without that exception is discrimination

  • Actuality I did. Hetero students aren’t expected to follow those restrictions. They have an out with marriage. Gay students do not.

  • Nope. There are two sets of rules and enforcement. There is one for hetero students which is not enforced at all and has a given opt out and a separate one for gays which was far more restrictive and all encompassing without such opt outs.

    Such rules are never enforced against straight students except women if they become pregnant or file complaints of sexual assault.

  • I don’t think it’s that easy. If it was, there wouldn’t be this controversy.

    I believe that making the covenant voluntary increases its value, because people who sign the covenant cannot be accused of doing it simply to get into the university. If students can only get into the university by signing the covenant, then it isn’t a free choice for them.

  • The ethos of the two nations as to religion and individual rights stem from these quite different histories, along with the much higher proportion of population in Canada from English-speaking Europe.

  • Discrimination is part of being an adult, being responsible, and being religious.

    Lacking discrimination leads to being unable to distinguish sh-t from shinola, as you constantly demonstrate.

  • No M. I was taught, you don’t like the food, don’t go to the restaurant.
    This is essentially stopping the Christians from helping these people to see their sin – hence, on a Christian campus, allowing sinners to go to Hell – because of someone’s misplaced loyalty

  • You and David read minds – not enforced at all? In this instance, homosexuals are expected to act with the same restraint as Christians. Simple as that Tater

  • Hetero students are expected to follow those restrictions – don’t make it up as you go along.

  • Gosh, another answer for david – no you are not psychic – you don’t know what all hetero do within Christianity.

  • LOL. I see how those honor codes are exploited and foster sexual assault epidemics in Christian college. Like the scandal that ousted Ken Starr from Baylor U.

    You are upset because the school chose not to discriminate. There is nothing sane in your position.

  • We see what goes on and what hits the news. Those honor codes only punish hetero women and gays. They are easily exploited by sexual predators.

  • No. They assure that the children – who wanted to go to a Christian university – adhere to Christian principles. No homosexual is going to get saved if you let them wallow in their sin – simple as that Tater

  • The school is discriminating against Christ, Tater. He set the rules and Christians are allowing heathen to not have the same respect for Christ. It is very sad no matter how you look at it David, I mean Tater. 🙂

  • https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/98-187-x/4064809-eng.htm Lower Canada – French Speaking and Catholic was the greater population for a long while. 1851 to be precise.

    Differences – close in time to allowing women to vote, the US allowed slavery and denial of rights to slaves. However, both countries treated Native Americans equally abysmally. Biggest difference was the Boston Tea Party and implications/consequences. And no Puritanism stranglehold anywhere.

  • It’s kind of like asking a baby to sign a covenant before it can get into the world. Right now the baby can’t sign, and the baby can’t get in because it might not be prepared to keep the covenant. If the baby did sign, it would be accused of signing just to get in. So, why do we have all this controversy?

    Because: “then it isn’t a free choice for them.”

  • One cannot run a law school without government accreditation, silly.

    If it was an LGBT school that was being denied accreditation for their beliefs, you would be the first one to hyperventilate and cry up a storm. (Of course, that’s pretty much your m.o. all the time.) You are quite the self-righteous hypocrite.

  • You are the one so bent out of shape because people choose not to be raging bigots and actually reap an obvious benefit from it. Who knew? Be nice to people and good things happen.

    You spend all your time being a gutless fool demanding a privilege to maliciously attack others without consequences. The world doesn’t work that way. Nobody has to respect your desire to harm others.

    If Christians like you had any courage,you would happily accept martyrdom for your cause instead of whining and expecting to be treated special. But you don’t. It’s all about what you do to others. Not about sacrificing for your professed sincere belief.

    “An LGBT school?” Never heard of one of those. Your arguments are really half baked nonsense. If it were a school for unicorns and leprechauns my position is would be the same.

  • If you have a compulsory covenant policy, this will discourage enrolments from the very people you might want to reach, A voluntary covenant policy, which is what the university instituted, enables these students to enrol in good conscience. It’s a win-win: students who want to sign the covenant can, those who have doubts don’t have to.

    In any case, as enrolments and donations have increased since the new policy was put in place, it seems to have been well accepted.

  • These kids would be 17 or 18. Some would be prepared to sign a covenant; others would hesitate or would refuse. The new policy deals with both situations.

  • If one has a compulsory policy, it ensures that people who want to act like Christians, will comply. The voluntary policy allows those who do not want to act like Christians room to unsettle the environment, with no responsibility for themselves or to Christ – a little leaven….
    Also, it allows unrepentant sinners to continue in their sin without acknowledging their sin – a necessity for a relationship with Jesus.
    The judges made it more possible for people to go to Hell while attending a Christian institution.

  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Canada

    “Slavery in Canada includes both that practised by First Nations from earliest times and that under European colonization. The latter was legal until the Slavery Abolition Act 1833 meaning that ‘Slavery was the dominant condition of life for black people in [Canada] for well over 200 years’”

  • Nothing is 100% effective. The Commandments prohibit killing, stealing and adultery, but these honoured texts have not stopped murder, theft and sexual misconduct.

    Tossing people out of a Christian college because they won’t sign a covenant won’t stop them from going elsewhere to indulge their passions. Nor will it stop those who sign the covenant from straying from the the vows they have taken.

    Jesus was described by his opponents as a friend of sinners (Matthew 11:19). https://biblehub.com/matthew/11-19.htm Your description of people who aren’t Christian doesn’t sound very friendly.

  • Exactly, but they can respect Christ when they are in a Christian school, M.
    If they want to act like Heathen, go elsewhere.
    There are saved, and unsaved – Christian and heathen

  • “If Christians like you had any courage,you would happily accept
    martyrdom for your cause instead of whining and expecting to be treated
    special.” needs to be corrected to reflect your position.

    Corrected version:

    “If Christians lhad any courage, they would happily accept martyrdom for their cause instead of whining and expecting to be treated fairly.”

    Yes, those Christians should go to the back of the bus and be quick about it.

  • Mglass lives in a country of what used to be called the Commonwealth.

    None of them have a First Amendment, and bulldozing religious beliefs has a strong precedence in their histories.

  • Floydee already referred to that verse, but Floyd stated this:

    “People are getting free, living holy, chains are getting broken, and people are no longer being silent about what happened to them. The secular media is scared to discuss this, but there’s an astonishing EPIDEMIC of people getting healed and restored.”

    Really? If anything the evidence appears to be going the other way. Take this article in the New York Review of Books: https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2019/01/10/the-long-war-against-a-gay-cure/

    But then again, that might not be the whole story. So what I’m asking for is the evidence of that astonishing EPIDEMIC of people getting healed and restored.”

  • If you want to evangelise people, you can hardly do it by driving them away. Of course, if your theology reckons they are foredoomed to hell, then the policy of the university makes no difference, as it’s all been predestined.

    Trinity Western University’s policy seems to be working. I know there has been a lot of criticism from conservative Evangelicals, but Jesus also faced such criticism from the religious authorities of his day.

  • One either trusts Christ, or they don’t. You obviously trust the world more than Christ – which is your choice, but, Christ made an axe head float and He can heal people of their sin

  • Sandi, it’s a question of evidence. Even the websites that promoted a “gay cure” were more guarded in their claims of success of their methods. Extraordinary claims must be tested, like your reference to a floating axe head. It’s connected to the prophet Elisha. See 2 Kings 6:6.

  • I don’t think there’s been an outbreak of disrespect at Trinity Western. Enrolments are up, donations are up, and gay students on campus are happy. At least, that’s what TWS’s director of Marketing claimed.

  • It’s still called the Commonwealth, xenophobe. And as for bulldozing religious beliefs, that’s another load of bull.

  • Perhaps, but we do not bow to society’s standards. Christ holds us to a higher standard and lowering it to suit unrepentant sinners, is not the way.

  • Evidence M is God’s word. He said, He would heal us of our diseases and would forgive our sin.
    Many people walk away with nothing more than Christ’s intervention

  • But isn’t that what Trinity Western University is trying to do? For those who want to take the pledge, they can. However, it’s voluntary, so those who can’t in all honesty make such a pledge, it isn’t forced on them. If Trinity Western University had abandoned the pledge altogether, that would be a capitulation to society’s standards, but by making it voluntary for students, they have complied with the law of the land but not abandoned their beliefs.

    Before you answer, I urge you to check out Matthew 10:16-22 https://www.bible.com/bible/compare/MAT.10.16-22

    The text is surprisingly applicable to the situation that Trinity Western University finds itself in.

  • Sandi, I urge you not to apply this idea literally. Remember the words of Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:7-10. Not all prayers are answered and not all wishes are fulfilled.

  • Doesn’t matter.

    1 John 2:15-17 English Standard Version (ESV)

    Do Not Love the World

    15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life[a]—is not from the Father but is from the world. 17 And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

  • 1 John 2:15-17 English Standard Version (ESV)

    Do Not Love the World

    15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life[a]—is not from the Father but is from the world. 17 And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

  • Paul is not addressing homosexuality in 1 Cor 6:11. He is writing, instead, of fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, boy prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, slanderers, and robbers.

  • If these kids think they are Christian – another discussion, another day, the following scripture is in effect

    1 Corinthians 5 English Standard Version (ESV)

    Sexual Immorality Defiles the Church

    5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

    3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4 When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord……9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. ”
    This is what I don’t think you are taking seriously enough

  • Yes, but we’re talking about young people. That is why the Parable of the Lost Son is so relevant:

    “There was a man who had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them. 13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. 14 And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to[a] one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. 16 And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.

    17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ 20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’[b] 22 But the father said to his servants,[c] ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. 23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

    25 “Now his older son was in the field, and as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf, because he has received him back safe and sound.’ 28 But he was angry and refused to go in. His father came out and entreated him, 29 but he answered his father, ‘Look, these many years I have served you, and I never disobeyed your command, yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours came, who has devoured your property with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him!’ 31 And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32 It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’” Luke 15:11-32 ESV

    Also, please see this picture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Prodigal_Son#/media/File:Brooklyn_Museum_-_The_Return_of_the_Prodigal_Son_(Le_retour_de_l%27enfant_prodigue)_-_James_Tissot.jpg

  • sorry, I don’t look at links from people I don’t know.
    If they are old enough to have sex voluntarially, they are old enough to assume responsibility for it. If that means being shunned by the church until they repent, so be it.
    The prodigal son repented also.,
    These children are not being forced to go to this university.

  • No, but if you had your way students who refused to sign the covenant would be forced either to tell a lie or go elsewhere.

    Now about the link that I provided: It was to Wikipedia, and specifically to the reproduction of a painting by the French artist, Jaques Tissot. If you go to the Wikipedia article “The Parable of the Prodigal Son,” the picture is near the beginning on the left hand side.

    On the other hand, why not simply click on the link below. It will take you to the file picture directly – and without risk.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Prodigal_Son#/media/File:Brooklyn_Museum_-_The_Return_of_the_Prodigal_Son_(Le_retour_de_l%27enfant_prodigue)_-_James_Tissot.jpg

    Best wishes,

  • If you don’t want to follow the rules set for you, go elsewhere. The school holds no obligation to those people unless they are students and that obligation entails teaching them and assuring they have a knowledge of Christ.

  • That’s not the way that the early church reacted to people. When rules got in the way, they were quite prepared to toss them aside. In Acts 15 the first council of the church got rid of the requirement for circumcision. See Acts 15:10 and following. Other Jewish rules were set aside See Acts 10. I think Trinity Western University is right to modify rules that hamper their outreach to students.

  • Yes, I did read your quotation. It applies to a church. With students at school or university the authorities need to be careful in the rules they set and how they enforce them.

    Trinity Western University modified their rules about the covenant in response to legal demands and student welfare. Judging from the reaction of stakeholders (though not their critics) it appears to have been the right call in the circumstances.

  • Trinity modified because it was forced to.
    Expecting someone to act morally is not wrong – particularly if one is attending a Christian university.

  • They were following the law of Canada, and the school does not seem to be too upset about doing so. In any case, the covenant still applies to staff, and it has to be renewed every year.

  • And, there is nothing wrong with expecting someone to act morally – no matter how the homosexuals react. When they become Christians, they can make decisions about how a Christian academy can function,.
    A little leaven……

  • I don’t think there is anything immoral in expecting Trinity Western University to respect people’s privacy and to treat people equally without distinction. If that is incompatible with Christianity, then there is something wrong with someone’s conception of following Jesus.

    Trinity Western seems to be quite happy with their changed policy in regard to students. I don’t think TWU would accept that a non-discriminatory policy is immoral.

  • It isn’t respecting people’s privacy, M. It is respecting Christ and what He wants from us.
    What this has turned into is people saying that homosexuals are unable to control their lusts – actually as written in the Bible, but the world is now acknowledging that. The problem is, they are not helping the homosexual by treating them differently. By not expecting the same behaviour as everyone else, no one is fighting for these people not to go to Hell.

  • Wow, very much apologies to **both** you and Sandi for the delay in responding. Since this thread is dropped way down, I may do my reply when the next LGBT article appears in 2 weeks or less (the Methodist Endgame). Actually an interesting inquiry to ask of ALL sides.

  • Right now, all you need is to say you are gay — no more than that .– and everybody is expected to fully accept your claim at face value with NO scientific testing whatsoever. You do not dare ask
    for the slightest documented genetic test or psych exam.

    But when you say, “I am no longer gay — Jesus healed and delivered me”, then one’s personal testimony is assumed false. Gotta get a scientific test

  • That’s why I always mention 1 Cor. 6:9-11 and 10:13. If Paul is truthful on 12:7-10 then he’s truthful on those other two texts he wrote as well.

    We Christians gotta stop agreeing with the anti- Christian sales-pitch that Gay is too hard for God. When we say Christ can’t cleanse, heal & deliver from issue “ABC” we’re really saying that He can’t do anything for any of us, regardless of our diverse sins and “issues.”

  • A university can insist on proper behaviour, but if it’s applying a religious test for enrolment, this is going too far. It’s not a question of treating people differently, but respecting their rights and their privacy.

    Trinity Western might want to save the souls of their students, but that does not mean that they should interrogate students about their faith or their sexual desires. They are educators, not inquisitors.

  • ” but if it’s applying a religious test for enrolment, this is going too far.” Not if it is a Christian university….lol
    It is respecting their rights – their right to have a relationship with Jesus and go to Heaven
    I didn’t see any interrogation, please quote that for me

  • If you’re applying a religious test for enrolment, then you clearly are interrogating prospective students about their religious beliefs.

    “Are you a Christian?”
    “Do you believe the Bible is the word of God?”

    These or any other questions you like to ask about religious faith and practice clearly interrogate prospective students about their religious beliefs.

    Trinity Western University doesn’t ask these questions of students, nor does it need to do so to present its religious beliefs to the student body.

    The alternative, which you appear to propose, is to exclude non-Christian or not Christian enough students from the university. I don’t see how sending them away helps to win their souls for heaven.

  • I read the article – no “religious test” – simply being asked to sign a promise that honours Christ.
    If they want to go to the university – respect the rules of the university, otherwise go elsewhere. This has already hurt the kids badly enough because the courts have now suggested they cannot control their lusts – just as the Bible teaches

  • I have read the TWU Prohibited Conduct web page. It says in part:

    “Sexual impropriety – As a matter of respect and consideration for TWU’s Christian beliefs and values, students are expected to refrain from immodest public displays of affection and from sexual intimacy outside of marriage on campus;”
    https://www.twu.ca/student-handbook/university-policies/4-prohibited-conduct

    There is no suggestion that students are not expected to control their lusts. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. Therefore I suggest that your fears are unfounded.

  • No. The courts decided with the students, who did not wish to remain celibate – with everyone, suggesting that homosexuals cannot control their lusts. Otherwise, why not remain celibate and move on? Obviously, it’s all agreed they cannot remain celibate

  • Do you have a citation or link to back up your claim? If so, I would be happy to read it. This really is a matter of fact that needs to be sorted out.

  • It’s common sense, M. The kids don’t want to sign the form – they do not wish to remain celibate. The courts say, “No no” to the university – you cannot make them sign the form – it discriminates against the poor children – why would it discriminate? Because they want to have sex. Hence, when the school gave in, they also were admitting that homosexuals, unlike everyone else, need to have their sex – indicating no one believes they cannot control their lusts.
    What else could be the issue when they are asked to abstain from sex, and they don’t choose to respect Christ at a Christian university, calling it discrimination?

  • Common sense is to find out exactly what is going on before rushing to judgment. You seem unwilling to do any research. I can’t understand your lack of interest in actually finding out what has happened, and what has not.

  • I’m afraid I can’t agree with this approach. It’s unfair to judge any situation without ascertaining the facts. It’s often said that if you assume something you make an ass of u and me. Now that’s not being even wise as doves, let alone serpents!

  • Of course, I don’t know what you may have read, but I did notice this article in the Globe and Mail that you may find of interest. To read it you can google Globe & Mail + trinity western university drops mandatory covenant forbidding

    or just click on this link:

    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/british-columbia/article-bcs-trinity-western-university-drops-mandatory-covenant-forbidding/

    The final point, where the local Catholic Archbishop supports TWU’s change of policy is clarified here:

    Archbishop Miller released a statement Tuesday saying, “I support Trinity Western University in its decision to no longer require the community covenant, and am pleased that it remains committed to its mission of developing leaders formed in an institution of Christian inspiration. Because I believe the wider community will benefit from greater diversity in institutions of higher education, I hope that TWU will refile its application for accreditation of its proposed law school.”

    see: https://bccatholic.ca/content/archbishop-miller-supports-twu-s-dropping-of-community-covenant

    or Google it if you prefer.

  • I don’t open links, so you’ll need to tell me.
    Also, providing quotes from a pastor who has left the teachings of Christ, offers no evidence. What did the article say?

  • Sandi, if you won’t click on links and you are not prepared to Google articles instead, then I can’t help you to find information. So let’s do it the opposite way round: YOU provide the links.

    You say that the courts suggested that homosexuals could not control their lusts. You read it on the Internet.

    Please provide me with the link to an article that makes this astounding claim.

  • Give me the gyst of it. I’ve been asking for that for a while from you.
    Tell me where you think I’m wrong, instead of expecting me to be a psychic, M

  • No I hadn’t read it on the internet – that was my opinion of the decision. I think you misunderstood.
    The school walked away from Christ by not fighting the court decision, and is allowing children to go to Hell by their inaction on requiring the same from them as everyone else.
    Now, show me where I am wrong, or let’s pack it in. I’m tired of playing games here M

  • Sandi, you’re playing games.

    * You won’t follow links.
    * You won’t google articles instead.
    * When asked to provide links yourself, you refuse.

    I have told you more than once that you are wrong in rushing to judgment without finding the facts.

    I have tried to have a rational conversation with you, but I’m not prepared to play any more games like this.

    Let’s agree to differ and close this futile dialogue.

  • The university fought the case up to the Supreme Court of Canada. It was there that they lost their case.

    I believe you have wronged Trinity Western University by accusing it of not fighting.

    It is just plain wrong to jump to conclusions about things without taking the trouble to find the facts.

    This conversation is going nowhere and I’m tired of your games. . Let’s end the conversation now.

  • That was all that you could find wrong with my interpretation? lol
    No pertinent misinformation……..I see
    Tired of dancing with you today, M. night night

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