• Frank

    Why would they listen to anyone who denies Gods Will and created order for marriage and sexuality? I mean anyone who tries to say homosexual behavior is not sinful has zero credibility.

  • The Rev Holly Boardman

    The author of this article does not seem to know the greater context of the story. LBGTQ people have “been invited to the table” MANY times. There have been many hours of precious time devoted to listening to LBGTQ United Methodists at the highest levels of our church. So much so, that other important church business has been put aside. The claim that LBGTQ voices are not being heard is ridiculous.

  • John Standard

    Well, Frank. If they had no desire to listen to LGBTQ members of society, and indeed their church, I doubt they would be holding a panel to discuss all the ways in which they should do so.

    Admittedly, they did a bad job of it, but it seems odd to me that they would hold a conference about reaching out and communicating to a group of people they felt should not be reached out to or communicated with.

    Also, you troll these comment sections a lot. I’m not sure if it is for the attention or not, but I don’t think you’re lighting the fires in people that you think you are.

  • Eliel Cruz

    Hi Reverend,

    I am aware of the background . I spoke to many LGBT United Methodists before writing this piece. I don’t think they would agree that LGBT voices are being heard, at least as much as you think they are. But in any case– any time there’s a conversation about LGBT people, LGBT people should be present. That should be a given.

  • John Standard

    This would be an example or lashing out against criticism instead of listening to it. While the broader conversation in the church may be going better than this, there is a clear problem of optics when a panel on how important it is to listen to and communicate with LGBTQ people is held that includes none of them.

    Also, as a matter of practicality, you would assume that some LGBTQ members of the church would be in the best position to advocate positive ways of reaching out. There is an irony here, in that LGBTQ members of the church would probably point to this panel, and how it was run, as the exact thing that drives them away.

    That, and comments like yours.

  • John Standard

    Above comment in response to The Rev Holly Boardman

  • Frank

    They reached out but what did they find?

    What’s the point of continually hearing the fallacious claim that homosexual behavior isn’t sinful when it’s obvious that it is?

    Should we listen when liars say it’s ok to lie? Murderers who say it’s ok to murder?

  • Jane Hubbard

    Thank you for your informative article, Mr. Cruz – It is important that LGBT people are included in all panels relating to pastoral care – what is most distressing to me is that by deliberately excluding LGBT representation from the panel, the critical discussion concerning the nature and spectrum of human sexuality is never allowed to be presented – this keeps all the church’s membership handicapped by ignorance – and bias – supposedly “justified” by a literal interpretation of the Bible – thanks again for your article – keep the information coming

  • Even so-called “progressive” Christians tend to talk about LGBT folks like a complicated abstract math problem rather than, you know, people.

  • The Rev Holly Boardman

    LGBT people are indeed being heard–loudly and clearly. The truth is that this minority (the Washington Post says about 4% of all people in the US are LGBT) is unable to accept the clear, teaching of the Christian faith (and the United Methodist Church) that they are people of sacred worth, AND that the practice of homosexuality is contrary to Christian teaching.

    The panel of bishops was NOT designed to be a discussion forum. It was designed to be a recap of a book these bishops had collaborated on. The three women who were asked to leave (Love Prevails) have an official purpose statement that declares their intention to disrupt church gatherings.


    They intend to “stand in the way of business as usual”; and in fact they have done so. Sadly, I don’t believe they realize that they do not represent the MANY active, peace-loving LBGT United Methodist Christians who are active in the local church. Love Prevails is an extremist group that does more harm than good to the LBGT cause.

  • Gregory Peterson

    Reminds me of some coverage of the Civil Rights Movement in the 1950s, such as in LIFE and Christianity Today. Condescending white people telling everyone else what to do, which in the case of CT, was usually to do very little except pray.

    There was one exception at CT, Frank Gaebelein, who joined Martin Luther King, Jr. on marches, though he found himself soon enough being censored by the white supremacists who controlled CT. Those were Dr. L. Nelson “voluntary segregation” Bell, and money man J. Howard “John Birch Society” Pew.

  • Billysees

    @ Trav Mamone

    Great comment.

  • Frank

    The color of your skin and your sexual preference are in no way comparable.

  • Neon Genesis

    Why do you bother to keep posting at an LGBT-friendly site if you hate us so much? I’m sure there are plenty of other religious sites you can visit to have your bigotry reinforced if you’re so afraid of us.

  • Neon Genesis

    Name some examples then.

  • Ben in oakland

    I assume you are a woman from your name.

    Women are not to speak up in church, or have authority over men. says so right in the bible. Your being a minister is contrary to Christian teaching, contrary to Paul and to Peter. Please turn in your credential immediately, and assume your place at the back of the bus. I mean, back of the church.

    The true test of a particular type of Christian is the belief that when the bible says something inconvenient, it must really mean something else entirely.

    As for this idea of sacred worth? Please! That’s not something you actually believe, but it does make what you believe and what you do sound much better to yourself and others. If gay people are of sacred worth, then there really should be no problem with their being ministers and having an active role in the church. Just like all of the other sinners who are allowed to be pastors. Just like women who are allowed to be pastors, for that matter, because they ALSO have sacred worth. Or is your sacred worth more sacred and more worthy than mine?

    But we both know that isn’t going to happen. It’s like the idea of Christian love when directed at gay people. Just like regular love, except for the love part.

  • Ben in oakland

    its because we don’t burn witches anymore.

  • The Rev Holly Boardman

    An update—the United Methodist Council on Bishops meeting just concluded. These 3 women interupted the final communion service by bursting out in an unscheduled hymn. These women were also invited to speak at the “Connectional Table” which is the proper forum for discussion.

    The presentation by the bishops on this panel was NOT designed to be a discussion. Discussion WAS held with these women in an appropriate forum

  • Ben in oakland

    You’re very wrong here.

    They treat us gay people like we’re a complicated math problem 1) that is also really annoying because it keeps demanding that they give up their assumption that 2+2=5, and 2) keeps challenging their wholly unwarranted belief that they are vastly superior as moral people, as Christians, and as human beings for assuming 2+2=5.

    It’s all very ironic, because complicated math problems actually require thought to solve, whereas assumed moral superiority requires absolutely none.

    You’re welcome.

  • Ben in oakland

    Unscheduled hymn singing!!! wow!!!!! What an abomination unto God!!!!!!

    May Be they just didn’t feel they were being heard by anyone important in that proper forum.

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  • John Standard

    Panels like this one are discussions by their very nature, if at times one-sided. There is nothing wrong with wanting in-depth discussion to happen after the panel has concluded. There is, however, a problem with leaving LGBT voices out of panel entirely, given it’s states goals and purpose.

    I also think you need to stop focusing on the three protesters. They feel strongly enough about what they believe to sing about it out of turn(hardly a radical act of protest, by the way). Most people don’t take that route. Making them the face of any response by LGBT people in this forum only re-asserts the us vs. them mentality that so pervades the church on this topic.

  • Frank

    There is nothing hateful about wanting people to turn away from their sin. That’s what real love wants. Hates looks like people supporting sinful behavior.

  • ben in oakland

    You said it much more nicely than I did, but thank you for making the same point.

    Female Minister Boardman, contrary to the word of god on the subject of female ministers, females speaking up in church, and females having authority over men, takes the position that we gay people are recalcitrant sinners, so addled by our perverted lusts and so bereft of and resistant to guidance by our known moral and religious betters that we couldn’t possibly have anything to say of any value, unless it is said in the proper venue with the proper guidelines in a way that won’t challenge the moral superiority of our betters.

    Very curiously, but not particularly surprisingly, much the same attitude was evinced towards black and brow n people in the missionary days, and black people in segregationist society.

    I’ve been listening to this crap my whole life. And crap it is. Didn’t St. Paul, the very same one that had a thing about female ministers, have something to say about people pretending to be wise who were actually fools?

  • nanayaw

    Do gays feel rejected? hm, indeed they should. Why do you advocate for such abomination. We do not reject them but they feel such. How on earth can you, in the llikeness Yahweh preach gay.
    I think they have their right to form their own church, but not to dilute the long standing truth.
    By preaching love and affection of same sex, just form your church, infact they free to do so.
    Not to bring curse upon us.

  • Ben in oakland

    We do have our own churches. And if you weren’t as uninformed as you appear to be, you would know that a great many churches also support us.

    If God curses you for my alleged sin, then I would suggest that his moral sense is completely undeveloped. But then, that divine creator of the universe never exhibited much moral sense, did he? He kept threatening pharaoh with worse and worse plagues, and then hardened Pharaoh’s heart just so he could send another one.

    Unless of course you were referring to the curse of Ham.