Duggars reeling from Josh’s sex-abuse scandal

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Josh Duggar, formerly executive director of the Family Research Council Action, speaks at the Family Leadership Summit in Ames, Iowa August 9, 2014. Photo courtesy REUTERS/Brian Frank. *Editors: This photo can only be used with RNS-DUGGAR-MOLEST, transmitted May 22, 2015 or RNS-TLC-DUGGARS, originally transmitted on July 16, 2015.

Josh Duggar, formerly executive director of the Family Research Council Action, speaks at the Family Leadership Summit in Ames, Iowa August 9, 2014. Photo courtesy REUTERS/Brian Frank. *Editors: This photo can only be used with RNS-DUGGAR-MOLEST, transmitted May 22, 2015 or RNS-TLC-DUGGARS, originally transmitted on July 16, 2015.

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Josh Duggar apologized Thursday (May 21) and abruptly resigned his job at the Family Research Council in Washington, one of the leading conservative groups fighting abortion and gay marriage among other causes.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    Josh Duggar made his living at the anti-gay FRC repeating the lie that LGBT Americans do what he admitted today he himself has done. How about all the other well-known anti-gays who have been caught doing themselves what they condemn—or falsely accuse LGBT Americans of doing?

    Caleb Hesse
    George Rekkers
    Eddie Long
    Troy King
    Richard Curtis
    Ted Haggard
    Glenn Murphy
    David Dreier
    Bruce Barclay
    Roy Ashburn
    Jim West
    Larry Craig
    Ed Schrock
    Robert Allen
    Mark Foley
    Phillip Hinkle
    Albert Odulele
    Christopher Lee
    Paul Babeu
    Randy Boehning
    Matthew Makela

  • Oh! But where would we get our morals from without religion? 🙂

    Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told.
    Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right.

    It is no wonder so many religious people have no idea about what is right and what is wrong – they have been denied the ability to think about consequences and they deny responsibility.

    The devil doesn’t make anyone do anything. And forgiveness isn’t real.
    If you don’t want the time, don’t do the crime.

  • Greg1

    Well at least he knows he was doing the work of the Devil. He apparently repented, confessed his sins, and has hopefully changed his life. I believe the difference here is he recognized his sin, and has chosen to battle it. Should he be part of the Family Research Council? Well, it is probably best that he has left it, as it will be too much of a distraction. Just for the record, the Left shrugs this stuff off for their own, but holds Traditional Family types hyper-accountable, as is seen in this article. Hey, I commend him for getting his life back in order, and back to God.

  • james warren

    This is what happens when Christians worship Christ instead of following Jesus.

    All it takes to be a Christian these days is to believe Jesus was the Son of God, the Messiah, or who died for humanity’s sins. It’s just a ridiculous easy way to get “saved” and get a ticket to Paradise.

    What’s harder is picking up our cross and following Jesus.

  • Re: “The InTouch story, which included pictures of the police documents it was based on, reported that Josh Duggar was investigated for multiple sex offenses, including forcible fondling of breasts and genitals, against five underage girls.”

    I’m not sure I’d call that “a mistake.” I’d call it a concerted and consistent pattern of behavior. Certainly a lot more serious than the Duggars and the FRC would probably like us to think it was.

    And to think, I thought being a dutiful and devout Christian made a person “moral.” Woops. Guess that’s not true after all, now, is it?

  • Larry

    Because squaring things right with God is all that matters. Not taking full responsibility for your actions and making things right with those you harmed. He avoided the real consequences of his actions and his family concealed it from authorities.

    Where is this alleged accountability from the “traditional family” types here? Where is this alleged moral compass of religion here?

  • Larry

    I guess all that restrictive, repressive parenting just enables sexual abusers. His parents covered up for him. Parents far more ‘traditional” in their beliefs about sex and marriage than most devout Christians. So you can take that “life lesson” Martin and shove it somewhere painful.

  • Shark boy

    Well….as a matter of fact all people do bad things! It’s society that regulates the punishment for the bad things which violate legal justice. The question we need to ask ourselves is, “who decides what we will believe to be right or wrong?” You cannot legislate morality. Supreme Court justices have at one time or another denied basic rights to Native people’s , women, and blacks. So who makes the rules which govern our lives must come from the Highest Source possible! GOD will have His Day! Regardless of what we think, the end will come and our lives will be judged accordingly. There is no other option! “If you say god exists – you lie. If you say god does not exist -you lie! Now, do you believe in GOD? The US Costitution was founded on the premis that Creator God gives us our rights to live free! Let freedom ring!

  • cedric

    Sooo, Have the courts and police dept. given him a record and is he considered a child molester and sex offender ?

  • What do you expect when you are taught right from wrong by a fundamentalist right wing Christian. Praise Jesus!

  • There is something morally wrong when a Christian moralist like duggar raises an immoral child.

  • Kristopher Eiben

    Wait so if they follow the bible, and he raped them. Did he pay the father 5 shekels and then marry the girls?

    Did the boy do any jail time at all for his crimes???? How is this???? Money???? Noooo, its GOD…. If you follow Jesus, you’ll be able to rape people, pray about it and get away with it.

    Just don’t forget to pay the father a few shekels and marry the daughter.

  • Doc Anthony

    Angry much, Larry?

    Yes, what Josh Duggar did was wrong and real damaging, and yes he needed to resign from the FRC, but YOU guys won’t get to hide behind HIS sins on Judgment Day.

  • Catherine Berger

    My concern is for the girls he abused, “…those affected by my actions got counseling…”. I can imagine that counseling involved questions about their behavior and how they had dressed and how they had looked, etc., etc. Plus, it is oh so convenient how the statute of limitations has run out…
    Well, I guess it could be worse, he could be a priest. Thanks for saving us from that!

  • Ben in oakland

    So basically, you are excusing yet another family values hypocrite who was caught with his hands down the cookie jars pants. All he has to do is say that he’s sorry and please God forgive me and everything is fine. This is the same man Who has made a career of vilifying gay people with the reviling slanderous and false charges that somehow we are a danger to children.

    Going the way that you and Doc usually go, we can conclude from this incident that heterosexual men are a danger to children, especially girl children,.

    Right? right?

  • Ben in oakland

    And if we had some ham, we could have some ham and eggs, if we had some eggs.

  • Ben in oakland

    But not all of us make a career of Vilifying innocent others who have harmed no one in the name of a morality that we don’t actually subscribed to. Josh Duggers is a flaming hypocrite of the worst sort.

  • Garson Abuita

    No, he was never charged with a crime and the statute of limitations has run.

  • Ben in oakland

    Well, thank the God I don’t believe then that it was heterosexual in nature, and not any of that gay stuff.

  • Ben in oakland

    We are not trying to hide behind his sins or his religion doc. That’s all on him.

  • Garson Abuita

    It’s 50 shekels, not 5. Also, that legal standard applies to rape, i.e. forcible vaginal intercourse. I don’t want to be seen as defending what Josh Duggar did, but he was accused not of rape but of forcibly fondling several underage girls — possibly very young ones. The Torah injunction you cite does not apply here.

  • Whoa,dial it back a notch there,Kristopher Eiben!! What the what are you talking about? You’ve got your covenants mixed up.Remember the old adage,”it’s better to be thought a fool, than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt”? Go back to the Scriptures and see if you can get it right,my friend.Otherwise…PEACE IN CHRIST!

  • JR

    The guy was 15, also underage! How old were the girls?The offenses listed here seem little more than teenage stupidity and curiosity. Child molester? Sex abuse scandal? I don’t see it. Looks like the gays are reaching pretty deep to boost their cause. How many of us are the same person today as we were at 15?

  • Garson Abuita

    I’ve been trying to find out the ages of the victims also, but all indications are that they were younger than teen or even tween-age.

  • Ben in oakland

    Well, it is true, but only if the person is a moral person to begin with.

    Right now, for example, Mike Huckabee is blaming the media for making poor little josh’s life so difficult. This is why I don’t take any advice from so-called Christian moralizing busybodies. They have a rather myopic point of view when it comes to the sins of so-called Christians, who are not smug, moralizing busybodies; they are just forgiven. There are already posters here on RNS that are decrying the sexual depravity of the world, instead of placing the blame squarely word belongs: On Josh Duggars for being a perv, and on his parents for covering it up, In this case, according to the huckster, The evil liberal media has it out for the Duggars. I say this: little josh had it in for his sisters.

    He hasn’t got around to blaming gay people yet, but I’m sure he’ll get to it as soon as he has time.

  • Shawnie5

    Where would we get our morals? Well, we’d be back to the morality of the pre-Christian world, which would be scratching its collective head over what all this fuss was about. Underage girls were fair game in that world–provided they were not the property of an influential father, of course.

  • Ben in oakland

    I wasn’t molesting children when I was 15. And I’m not doing it now. It is very telling that you see to exonerate and defend Josh Duggers. And, at the same time, you seek to Tar gay people with your usual Homo hating brush.

    I’m sure that there is a biblical quote here that would apply to this kind of hypocrisy and moral obtuseness, but frankly, I’m too lazy to look it up, and youre too morally lazy to hear it.

  • Pingback: Josh Duggar Admits to Molesting Underage Girls, Including Some of His Sisters, as a Teenager; Resigns from Family Research Council | BCNN2()

  • The Great God Pan

    ““I understood that if I continued down this wrong road that I would end up ruining my life.”

    There’s that Christian moral accountability! He wasn’t worried about what he was doing to the victims’ lives (almost certainly his own little sisters, let’s remember), but to his own.

    Of course, he needn’t have worried about his own reputation. Conservative Christians are circling the wagons, defending poor Josh and decrying those mean, awful liberals who insist on dredging up the past. He could still win an election in a red state even after this revelation. It’s sad, but you have to admit it’s true.

  • No. The trooper who took the report, it turned out, himself was guilty of “immorality” (specifically, he was convicted of having kiddie porn). A case of one pervert giving another a “pass.”

  • Ben in oakland

    Next, you’ll be telling me that a family values hypocrite like Mark Sanford, former governor of North Carolina, could abandon his wife to run off and spend time with his Argentinian whore. Why would the morality like that, he could probably getelected to Congress. Whoops! That’s exactly what happened.

  • Larry

    We obviously don’t get morals from religion. We get rules for enforcing social order and arbitrary reasons to treat people badly. But morals, never the case.

    If you didn’t read the article underage girls are very much fair game for devout ultra-orthodox “Christians”. As is adults covering up sexually abusing them. If anything religion provided great excuses for people to act badly in this instance. In case you don’t realize, in the Duggar’s strain of Christianity, women ARE the property of their father. They are expected to obey their father and husband at all times in all ways.

    Thank you for showing a flair for dramatic irony.

  • Larry

    What Josh’s parents and those around him did was even worse. They covered up his acts long enough to avoid criminal prosecution under the statute of limitations.

  • Shawnie5

    Larry, underage girls have been fair game in every place and time in history…it was only at a certain very specific point in time that anyone saw anything particularly wrong with it.

    And excellent missing of the point about property. Whether or not it is a correct statement that those of the Duggars’ faith see daughters as “property,” the point is that in the ancient pagan world that was the ONLY thing that made the misuse of a female wrong…until a helpful little thing came along called the Imago Dei.

    You have a serious problem with seeing the big picture. It is stating the obvious that Christianity does not make the darker features of fallen nature, such as the tendency to misuse and exploit others, go away–nobody ever claimed that it did. But had it never arisen, we would probably not see them as “dark” at all but merely realities to be accepted and worked with.

  • JR

    I’m sure gay boys make mistakes at 15 too. My argument is that somehow this teenage offense bars him from belonging to a group that is anti abortion and gay marriage. Is there any record of continuing his “sex abuse” to this day? Something is wrong here. Who out there has the background free of all bad behavior?

  • Re: “The US Costitution was founded on the premis that Creator God gives us our rights to live free!”

    It says nothing of the kind.

  • Larry

    Whatever apologetic nonsense you feel like making up about the world 1500 years ago doesn’t change the obvious hypocrisy of self styled Christians and their rather arbitrary notions of morality. All on full display here.

    Religion is not only unnecessary for morality, but as you and others demonstrate, it can be an impediment to it.

    Unless you want to say something about Dugger & co and his legions of pious excuse makers, you are saying nothing of importance with your fictional apologia of Christianity.

  • Shawnie5

    IOW, “I don’t have the wherewithal to refute your point and I don’t want to further expose my ignorance by continuing to talk about it.” Well, fair enough.

  • Be Brave

    There is no morality in an aimless godless universe Max. Just random molecules moving around.

    In a materialist world nothing matters.

    Literally.

    Hey dude, that’s your “world” in scientific fact.

  • Be Brave

    He was born that way.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    It is sad to see Christianists continue to degrade our Founding Fathers and their, and our, United States Constitution that way. Christianists hope to reduce our confidence in our own government that way so as to facilitate their political goal of destroying our government and setting themselves up as dictators. The founder of “dominion Christianity,” R. J. Rushdoony, wrote just that in his book, “The Institutes.”

  • Be Brave

    The horrors of teen sexuality is saying that teens should stay away from sex.

    But the LGBT Community and secularists aplenty disagree.

  • Be Brave

    The idiocy of this comment is laughable. He was a teenager when he did these things.

    Do the math.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    Sorry, Shawnie, we’ve seen what religion did for the “morality” of the Duggars. You aren’t going to be able to dig them out of the hole they dug for themselves by falsely accusing others of what Josh Duggar himself did to his own sisters. This is a major, self-inflicted defeat for their anti-gay political agenda. By indicating he thinks what Josh Duggar did is AOK as long as Josh is anti-gay, Huckabee merely added to that defeat. Please continue to show Americans how very convenient “morality” is for the anti-gay political agenda.

  • Be Brave

    The hypocrisy here is from all of the gay supporters that cheer on gay teen action when the vast majority is the seduction of unwilling others that were being “turned out,” during their sexuality orientation phase.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    Americans see right-wing megachurches and the lavish lifestyles of the megachurch ministers as materialistic. The palaces the anti-gay Catholic bishops inhabit, tax-free, demonstrate the same. Please continue to attack anyone who doesn’t share your Christianist political goals with wild claims of “scientific fact.” Like Josh Duggar, the greatest defeats for that agenda are self-inflicted. Most Americans consider the constant hate speech from right-wing churches as deeply immoral.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    So, it’s OK for him to make false accusations that LGBT Americans do what he did to his own little sisters, because he was “born that way”? It’s OK for his mother to tell that same lie in an anti-gay Hate Vote campaign because her daughters’ molester was “born that way”?

    Your not-so-subtle way of making, yet again, that false comparison of same gender American married couples to criminal child sexual assault seems ill-timed, since this article is about Josh Duggar doing just that while he himself is guilty. Duggar’s mistake is a huge, self-inflicted wound for the anti-gay political agenda. Please continue to make the same mistake he did. Just don’t be surprised that the result further destroys that anti-gay political agenda.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    Martin, you spend too much time thinking about other people having sex. What you claim are “God’s laws” sounds like a personal problem.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    Please provide a citation for your claim that LGBT Americans are encouraging teens to have sex. Please note repeating that claim is unconvincing, especially as that’s a standard anti-gay lie. You might want to look up what an “unimpeachable source” is before you respond.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    What Josh Duggar is worse because he compounded his misdeed by falsely claiming LGBT Americans do what he himself did to his own little sisters. Michelle Duggar also told that lie about LGBT Americans to promote an anti-gay Hate Vote while she knew she had helped cover up her son’s crime. Americans have noticed that while one of the 10 Commandments says “Thou Shalt Not Lie,” the right-wing Christianists clearly feel they have a “special right” to lie whenever their lies advance their political agenda.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    Oh, you mean blaming LGBT Americans for what he himself did, to his own little sisters, right? Josh Duggar has already claimed many times that LGBT Americans commit the crime he committed, that’s what the FRC paid him to do. He did that during the Supreme Court hearings in March on the steps of the Supreme Court building. I believe the justices will consider his hypocrisy in making their ruling.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    You’re so desperate to deflect from his doing to his own little sisters what he falsely claimed LGBT Americans do. That tactic is sure to fail. Insulting other posters will also fail to advance the anti-gay political agenda.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    There’s more. Someone convinced a judge in Alabama to order the Springdale, Arkansas police department to destroy the records. That’s yet another desperate attempt to deflect from the facts. That police record is already online.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    That’s quite a stretch there! It’s OK because you think he didn’t do one act? Can you prove he didn’t?

  • CarrotCakeMan

    Yet another act of deflection…

  • CarrotCakeMan

    No use trying to blame “the gays” for what Josh Duggar did. Do you really think you’re going to be able to advance the anti-gay political agenda after this crushing, self-inflicted defeat to that agenda?

  • CarrotCakeMan

    “all of the gay supporters that cheer on gay teen action ”

    Citation, please? This wasn’t the only time you spammed this board with that same routine anti-gay lie.

  • Churchy McWorship

    He’d still make a great scout leader because at least he’s heterosexual!

  • It’d be nice if some of their fellow Christians who supposedly know better would at least attempt to stop them and force them to drop their religiofascist agenda. But they refuse. Instead they’re electing them to office (I’m thinking here of guys like Ted Cruz).

  • Greg1

    Larry the article says the parents reported it to the authorities. Come on.

  • The Great God Pan

    Don’t look now, dearest Shawnie, but it’s your fellow conservative Christians who seem to be scratching their heads over what the fuss is about in this case.

    The most memorable response I’ve seen so far was something along the lines of, “With Memorial Day weekend upon us, let’s remember that men and women didn’t die so you could trash Josh Duggar!”

    And wasn’t it the Reverend Simon Lokodo who once remarked that men abusing girls is “the right kind of child rape?”

    My dearest Shawnie, sometimes I suspect that Christian morality ain’t all it’s cracked up to be.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    The parents reported it to one state police officer more than a year after Josh Duggar committed the crime. That officer is now in prison for child pornography.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    Here’s what the vetted, 100% heterosexual Scout leaders actually did:

    http://spreadsheets.latimes.com/boyscouts-cases/

    “This data­base con­tains in­form­a­tion on about 5,000 men and a hand­ful of wo­men who were ex­pelled from the Boy Scouts of Amer­ica between 1947 and Janu­ary 2005 on sus­pi­cion of sexu­al ab­use. The dots on the map in­dic­ate the loc­a­tion of troops con­nec­ted in some way to the ac­cused. The timeline be­low shows the volume of cases opened by year; however, an un­known num­ber of files were purged by the Scouts pri­or to the early 1990s. The data are de­rived from con­fid­en­tial Scout­ing files sub­mit­ted as evid­ence in court cases. “

  • shawnie5

    “Sorry, Shawnie, we’ve seen what religion did for the “morality” of the Duggars.”

    Small potatoes. The bigger issue is what religion did for the entirety of western civilization. The upshot of which is that we have Christianized western nonbelievers tsking over things which pre-christian nonbelievers would have yawned about, and never thinking to wonder why. After all, who could bring themselves to care about who touched a young female and where when they could be left out for wild animal feed at birth at whim?

  • shawnie5

    “Next, you’ll be telling me that a family values hypocrite like Mark Sanford, former governor of North Carolina, could abandon his wife to run off and spend time with his Argentinian whore. ”

    What’s wrong with that? In the world that we ruddy old Christians ruined this was quite in order, particularly for influential men like politicians. Wives were for producing heirs, while mistresses (the younger the better) were for pleasure. When did we all stop seeing this as natural and healthy human behavior? 😀

  • shawnie5

    Make that “fuddy.” Good old autocorrect.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    Yes, we know anti-gays consider his own sisters “small potatoes.” Huckabee did the same thing today, tell Americans that he thought Josh Duggar should get out of jail free because he helps hurt their intended LGBT victims.

    No use claiming this has anything to do with Christians. The anti-gay agenda is a political agenda, as is proven by the plain fact the majority of American Christians reject the anti-gay agenda.

  • BA Blumenthal

    Wow, really? Are you aware that the founding fathers were Christians? That they set up the three branches of govt to ensure checks and balances and used the trinity as an example? That the separation of church and state was to protect the religious freedom of believers? Much of our legislation is now reading it backwards… pushing religion out of society at all costs. Non Christians will never like the Duggars, but believers will, do, and are praying for them.

  • shawnie5

    @TeeLC: The “bad” and the “ugly” is who Jesus says all of us are. This was the point of the sermon on the mount.

  • BA Blumenthal

    Well said…

  • CarrotCakeMan

    This isn’t the first time shawnie has suggested anything goes, as long as it’s the people he likes doing it, just like shawnie thinks the molested little sisters are “small potatoes.” Human beings don’t matter at all, all that matters is the anti-gay political agenda.

    Keep showing Americans just what anti-gays are like, shawnie. There are a few Americans anti-gays haven’t repulsed from that anti-gay agenda yet.

  • shawnie5

    Learn to read, Carrot. I didn’t say the girls themselves were small potatoes. That would, however, have been exactly the attitude of the pre-christian west. That’s the bigger point.

  • Shawnie5

    Wrongway Carrot misses again.

    Clearly I have been asking for the moon, requesting a defense of Boswellian inventions from someone with next to no reading comprehension skills at all. Piteous.

  • @BA Blumenthal,

    “Are you aware that the founding fathers were Christians?”

    NO!

    THE FOUNDERS of the UNITED STATES WERE NOT CHRISTIANS

    George Washington – “this is no way a Christian nation”

    James Madison – “Religion debilitates the mind” it is “superstition” and “tyranny” ..“we need it not”

    Benjamin Franklin – “Faith shuts the eyes of reason”

    Thomas Paine – “ churches… are built to enslave and terrify mankind and monopolize power”

    Thomas Jefferson (DEIST) – “The Preacher is always allied with the [evil] despots”

    John Adams – “The Christian religion is the most bloody religion that ever existed”

    Alexander Hamilton – “Men are reasoning animals!”

    Abraham Lincoln – “The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion.”

    James Madison – “Christianity is nonsense”

    Thomas Jefferson – “The dogmas of religion…are unintelligible nonsense” – 1816

  • Ben in oakland

    Ben in Oakland: I’m a gay man. I was born that way. In my life, I have endeavors to help others, not to harm them. I take responsibility for my life, not handing it over to some god and claiming that I am forgiven my most egregious sins against others. My marriage makes my life better, and the lives of our many friends and family members better. We are well thought of by family, friends, neighbors, and colleagues.

    Josh duggars: im a heterosexual man. I also don’t understand sexual boundaries and inappropriateness. I was born that way. I molested my own sisters. I make a living out of slandering and reviling innocent others, attempting to harm them. I can do whatever I wish, claim that my God forgives me, and get defended by right wing politicians who see their gravy train of power, money, and dominion drying up. Decent people everywhere think I’m slime. But I can always count on other wingers to defend me, because I make my living attacking innocent gay people.

    Does that sum…

  • Ben in oakland

    Well, Shawnee, I do have feelings about that. I think it is wrong. It was wrong then, it is wrong now.

    But do you know what I really think about it? Sanford’s bad activities are between him and his wife. I’m glad she divorced him. However, his constant braying about family values affects more than him and his wife.

    Jesus didn’t say, “Scribes! Pharisees! homosexuals!” He said “scribes. Pharisees! Hypocrites!”

  • Shawnie5

    @BA Blumenthal: Ignore Max’s misrepresentations and mangled quotes (the first of which is an outright lie). The facts are that Washington/Adams/Hamilton/Madison were Christians. Franklin/Jefferson/Paine were deists, and Lincoln was, of course, not a founder at all. But all the deists with the exception of Paine had profound respect for the principles of Christianity and felt them necessary to public virtue and therefore liberty.

    Max has been shown all this numerous times but continues to post propaganda in order to convince ignorant readers. New Atheists are a highly dishonest lot.

  • Shawnie5

    “I do have feelings about that. I think it is wrong. It was wrong then, it is wrong now.”

    No doubt you do–that is stating the obvious. But if you had lived then you would not have. What has changed between then and now to cause you to have those “feelings?” THAT is my point.

  • Shawnie5

    I wasn’t aware that the Duggars claimed to be “righteous and holy.”

    “Righteous and holy” Christians (or righteous and holy anything else) is an oxymoron, since one doesn’t turn to Jesus in the first place unless they have sins they need to be saved from. Which everyone does (“There is none good except God”) but not everyone acknowledges (“I came to call not the righteous but sinners to repentance”).

  • Shawnie5

    No, but it does provide an excellent variation on the parable of the Pharisee in the temple. “I thank thee, Lord, that I am not like that tax-collector over there. For I have all the following fine qualities…”

  • Be Brave

    Ohhh Atheist Max, you’re so silly:

    Religious Affiliation
    of U.S. Founding Fathers

    # of
    Founding
    Fathers

    % of
    Founding
    Fathers

    Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7%
    Presbyterian 30 18.6%
    Congregationalist 27 16.8%
    Quaker 7 4.3%
    Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
    Lutheran 5 3.1%
    Catholic 3 1.9%
    Huguenot 3 1.9%
    Unitarian 3 1.9%
    Methodist 2 1.2%
    Calvinist 1 0.6%
    TOTAL 204

  • @Shawnie,

    1. I’m tired of pointing out what paraphrasing is – I don’t lie.

    2. You are pushing a dangerous drug called faith which is a philosophy of the power of pretending! You have no evidence for your claims – all of it is nonsense.

    3. Christ is a lie. Repeatedly telling people that something is true when you haven’t the slightest evidence – is lying.

    4. Selling lies as you do – is dishonest hucksterism.

    5. My refutation of your claims is not ‘propaganda.’ I am merely doing what a good teacher does to an ignorant student – I’m giving you an “F” and I’m sending you to the principal!

    The immorality of religion is a public nuisance to all of us.

    Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told.
    Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right.

    And founders of the USA hated religion.

  • Ben in oakland

    What has happened is called “progress”. And it is progress when we remove another group– in this case, gay people– from confines of bigotry, religious or otherwise.

  • Nonsense.

    “Congress shall make no law establishing a religion..”

    That could never have been written by someone who really believed in a God.
    That is all you need to know about your Atheist US Constitution and its brilliant RELIGION-HATING founders.

    The founders knew if some room were made in our laws for a God
    there would be no room for humanity!

    Religion poisons everything.

  • BB,

    “Do the math”

    If you could actually do math you’d understand that religion is a joke.

    Math proves:

    1. Evolution

    2. Carbon and Methane gases produced by humanity are increasing Global warming uncontrollably.

    3. Humanity is doomed within 75 years if we don’t promote contraception.

    4. Scientific dating methods are accurate completely disproving Creationism and Dominionism.

    5. Wherever women are emancipated from religion every indicator of improves across the society including wealth and happiness.

    Not knowing math is part of your problem. Not mine.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    Some 60% of registered voters in Ireland turned out to give a 61% majority to marriage equality. Funny, I would have thought this stinging rebuke to the anti-gay political machinations of the Catholic bishops is religion news.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    It’s always so sad to see right-wingers lie about our Founding Fathers.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    There’s no point in your lying about that, shawnie. Your denigrating comment about the sexually abused little girls is still here.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    Many Americans compare anti-gay “churches” to the Pharisees of the Bible, shawnie. You might want to avoid that in the future.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    Still no citation, huh, “Be Brave”?

    Thanks for admitting you lied about LGBT Americans, which is what Josh Duggar did.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    How many times did you lie about your post saying the little girls who were molested were “small potatoes,” shawnie? Your unfortunate post is still here for all to see.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    Still no citation, huh? I will ask you again to prove your claim every time I see you post.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    You’re correct. Michelle Duggar made a recording for a robocall to be used to pass an anti-gay Hate Vote in Fayetteville, Arkansas, in which she repeated the same lie Josh Duggar was paid by the FRC to repeat, while knowing her son was actually guilty of doing that to his own little sisters.

    I don’t suppose any of the Duggars will be of use to the anti-gay agenda in the future.

  • CarrotCakeMan

    Since you didn’t mention any Deists or Jewish, “Be Brave,” I believe your claim is incorrect. How about a CITATION to back up your claim?

    I see you posted this long after I asked you to provide a citation for your claim about LGBT Americans. Are you suggesting we assume you’re lying?

  • Shawnie5

    Many Americans have no clue what the gospels say — you included.

  • Shawnie5

    The expected response. And interestingly enough, that “progress” happened at a very specific time and place in the several millenia of human history. What was that point, Ben?

  • Shawnie5

    Here is what the founders thought of religion:

    “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity…And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.”

    –Washington’s Farewell Address.

    Why do you lie so much? Is your case that hopeless?

  • Jack

    “Who knows, they probably might actually become Christians
    well, that’d kill the healthy environment part.

  • larry

    No They didn’t. They hushed it up with a police officer who was friendly to them. One ironically with a significant collection of child pornography.

  • Shawnie5

    Here is what the founders thought of religion:

    “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity…And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle”

    -Washington’s Farewell Address

    Why do you lie so much about this? Is your case really that hopeless?

  • Shawnie5

    It was written by James Madison, who also wrote: “The belief in a God All Powerful wise and good, is so essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man, that arguments which enforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources nor adapted with too much solicitude to the different characters and capacities to be impressed with it.” –Letter to Frederick Beasley, 1825.

  • Shawnie5

    Here’s what the founders thought of religion: “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports.” –Washington’s Farewell Address 1796.

    Why do you lie so much about this? Is your case really that hopeless?

  • @Shawnie,

    LOL!
    Did you read that letter to RECTOR Frederick Beasley!!?

    Of course not. 🙂
    Madison was referring to Clarke’s assertions about god – assertions Madison DISAGREED with.

    “…the more abstract train of ideas which you so strongly support..”, Madison derided!

    In Beasley’s shallow book, “A Search of Truth in Science and the Human Mind” he espoused John Locke’s liberal views – any religion was fine except NON-BELIEF!

    Madison knew this and with great diplomatic skill he REJECTS BEASELY’S assertions as well!

    “In this comparative facility of conception & belief, all philosophical Reasoning on the subject must perhaps terminate.”

    In other words:
    “REASON IS WHAT I CARE ABOUT – NOT FAITH!”

    Madison brilliantly slammed Beasely, Clarke and Locke in one letter.

    “that I may not get farther beyond…without the resources which bear you up..”

    HAHAHA!

  • Shawnie5

    Still dancing, Max? Never saw a New Atheist who wasn’t full of long-winded explanations for why the founders (and your atheist companeros on the other side of the pond, for that matter) didn’t really mean thus-and-so when they said thus-and-so. You still just can’t deal with the fact that Madison was saying that reason leads naturally to belief in God and that “philosophy must terminate” at that point because the infinity of the Deity is beyond our powers of comprehension.

    What is your problem, Max? Why are you so desperate to have the founders on your side when they clearly were not?

  • @Shawnie,

    “You still just can’t deal with the fact…”

    STUNNING!
    The United States has the ONLY Atheist Constitution in the world – the only one which expressly forbids religion in government.
    You demonstrate why the founders were so wise. Only our Atheist constitution can keep the peace!

    Faith is an assault on the very IDEA of evidence!

    All of the Founders (except for John Jay) were disgusted with religion, clergy and supernatural claims.

    Thomas Jefferson’s Atheist bible is exactly the sort I could have come up with!

    “In every country and in every age, the preacher has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.”
    – Thomas Jefferson

    You, Shawnie, are the hostile preacher he’s talking about!

    https://atheistmax.wordpress.com/doubt-is-the-american-way

  • Shawnie5

    He didn’t say “preacher.” He said “priest.” That is what the founders were disgusted with — established Catholicism and Anglicanism, whose clergy were bureaucrats jockeying for power with rulers instead of evangelizing the lost and properly teaching their congregations. None of the founders (with the possible exception of Paine, who was not a founder) hated Christianity but valued its contributions to western civilization and its purifying effect upon the morals of citizens. We can re-paste Jefferson’s words in praise of Christian principles if you like.

    Why do you lie so much about this? Is your position really that hopeless?

  • @Shawnie,

    The USA has the only Atheist Constitution in the world – even 240 years after it was signed and by all those people!

    You want to convince yourself that its founders where secretly Christian? Nonsense. What devout Christian would write our Atheist Constitution? It has never happened in history in any other country.

    LOL!

    That is like saying the Democratic party is secretly funded by Far Right Republicans. It is ridiculous on the face of it.

    Educated readers will find your denials hilarious.
    America was founded by people who hated religion, clerics, priests, pastors and superstitions – and valued ONLY whatever REASON led to.

    Reason does not lead to Gods – it leads to Atheism – the simple non-belief in any deities.
    There is no way to reasonably conclude a God exists and the founders of America KNEW IT.

  • Shawnie5

    Indeed? Why then did even the LEAST Christian of all the founders say the following: “On the contrary I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the Universe, in its parts general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of it’s composition…So irresistible are these evidences of an intelligent and powerful Agent that, of the infinite numbers of men who have existed thro’ all time, they have believed, in the proportion of a million at least to Unit, in the hypothesis of an eternal pre-existence of a creator, rather than in that of a self-existent Universe. Surely this unanimous sentiment renders this more probable than that of the few in the other hypothesis.” –Thomas Jefferson

  • Shawnie5

    “Educated readers will find your denials hilarious.”

    Educated readers, whose study of history consisted of less collage-making and map-coloring and more reading of classics such as the Federalist Papers, Blackstone’s Commentaries, and the private papers of the founders, already know you to be a dishonest propagandist.

    Why do you lie so much about all this? Is your position really that hopeless?

  • Be Brave

    Larry,

    Our consistent voice on morality does not support young people engaging in sexual behavior.

    You can’t understand that?

    Maybe take a step back from your open-mouthed drooling hatred of Christians overall and see that the consistent position is that this man, when he was a teenager, did things that were bad, and were wrong.

    If he was a gay youth that diddled boys, we would not be able to say one word of condemnation or accountability. We would be called homophobes and haters. We wouldn’t be able to even entertain the idea of getting rid of an LGBT. Look at California, the gay mobs forced a holiday for a pederast named Harvey Milk. If that were challenged by anyone, they would be terminated from the employment.

    Get a grip pal. You represent the true hypocrite side.

  • Be Brave

    @James W.

    James, do you know anything about Christian truth? Worshiping Christ is not an option.

    It is far easier to “follow Jesus” right into a gay bar. many people wear a Cross while engaging in all sorts of sinful behavior. I know several LGBT’s that wear a cross as if it wasn’t an insult. No differently than a gang member or a pimp doing the same thing.

    How could one “worship” Christ and then engage in sinful sexual behavior. The two acts are mutually exclusive. But there are all sorts of Jesus followers out there that are as Christian as a Voodoo priest. Which, I believe, have a cross handy.

    You need to do a little (or a lot) of study from the New Testament to see what’s up.

  • Be Brave

    I’d be banned for posting links to gay websites.

    That LGBT’s do not encourage sexual behavior to teenagers is laughable.

    And please, if ANY homosexual here would attempt, please post a link to ANY homosexual pastor preaching gay abstinence before gay marriage? Mel White perhaps? The gay role model that divorced his female wife to marry and male one?

    The idea that LGBT culture is anything like Christian life is laughable on its face (no pun intended) and on its theology.

  • Be Brave

    Yawn! Same ol’ same ol’. As unconvincing as a PhD saying that there is no god and that we have to support justice.

    Eugenics and global warming worship. You’re as religious as any Molech worshiper. Typical totalitarianism of the godless. Yes, yes, slaughter of the children and complete control of the populace. So historically proven as such.

    But man are you the typical atheist. As original as white on bleached white minute rice. And as totalitarian as it comes.

    Of course.

    Part and parcel.

  • Penn

    ‘The “bad” and the “ugly” is who Jesus says all of us are.’

    And your god who you claim made us would be responsible for those flaws, Shawnie. That’s some funny “god” ya made there.

    Better try baking one with a new recipe next go. Maybe leave out some of the Jesus juice and the holy ghostie frothy icing. The end result with your previous one is an ugly, inconsistent mess of contradictions.

  • @BB,

    “You’re as religious as any Molech worshiper.”

    I have no religion.
    If evidence refutes ANY SCIENTIFIC CONCLUSION I am ready to reconsider any scientific claim.

    All of the evidence shows that God has never healed a single amputee.
    No amputee has ever grown back a hand, foot, leg or arm.

    In this way,
    EVIDENCE proves that certain prayers are 100% failures 100% of the time.

    If God existed and wanted me to believe in his powers
    he would not have provide such PERFECT evidence that he is actually just a load of nonsense.

  • @Shawnie,

    “designer”

    Thomas Jefferson was ignorant of Darwinism – he was unable to avail himself of the final answer to this question. There is no designer.

    Why is this important?
    Because our founders hated religion – hated superstition – hated claims for which there was no evidence – hated clergy.

    You claim “faith” is part of our national cause. This is a disgusting lie. You insult and deny the one thing which makes our Constitution singularly valuable to the world – its freedom from religions.

    And you further claim that faith is the INSPIRATION for this Atheist Constitution – another disgusting lie.

    America was founded on evidence – not faith.
    You deny America its liberties and you indulge in the one enemy which could possibly subvert it and overturn it – the garbage of FAITH!

  • Sid

    You are also picking and choosing quotes Shawnie. That’s a downward spiraling game in which all sides lose, like you just did. There are quotes showing various constitution colleagues supporting and denigrating religion, but overall it looks like the group wanted the Constitution to be untainted by religion and untainted by religious bias; that’s pretty clear.

  • Sid

    Review of the comments above here shows you to be the hypocrite, Be Brave. And quite an insulting, mean person too.

  • Sid

    Shawnie, that would make your “god” a pretty poor creator, having made us with all those obvious flaws and weaknesses.

    Better bake yourself a better god next time. Try a recipe without the bitter Jesus sauce and the flaky holy ghost additions. Those are so unnecessary, for a real god.

  • Sid

    That’s a pretty cowardly cop-out you just made, “Be Brave”.

  • Sid

    Shawnie, since what you have put forward is a speculation ending in a question, you don’t have much of a point yourself. In fact, you really don’t have a leg to stand on there.

  • Pr Chris

    This family needs to work things out privately.

    Dillards: Whatever the Duggars are (“family” “cult”, whatever), had they reported to the authorities when the girls first went to their dad and told them what Josh was doing, which was 2002 by some accounts..and Josh offended until 2006, the courts might have actually gotten both the girls and Josh some help. The only “counseling” Josh got was apparently to be strongly told “DON’T DO THIS EVER AGAIN”…and sent to a friend in another town, who worked him physically hard doing a home remodel, and his evening hours reading his bible. There was NO “COUNSELING”

    And if that is what Josh got, I would believe that the girls, including one who may have been as young as 5 at the time, got even less. They are going to take this with them into adulthood, and their ability to trust their husbands will be very difficult. It does not predict stable marriages for them.

    The Duggars ought to be a lesson in “Don’t do what I…

  • Pr Chris

    The Duggars is a story of crime and politics. The Duggars have so much clout that their conduct, and that of Josh’s were covered up, and they’ve skated. Consider this:

    1. Parents were aware as early as 2002, according to some reports (Josh was then about 14)
    2. Nothing reported until 2006. Officer to whom reported never did anything official, and he is in prison for 55 years for child porn.
    3. Josh not reported until statute of limitation expired. Then reported to police–but not by Duggars. An aquaintance found a letter account in a book and called anonymously to cops. (Imgur.com has police report, heavily redacted.)
    4. Josh never got decent counseling, and because of delays there is no court action available. He’s likely to offend again…perhaps his own 3 kids…wife needs to be super-vigilant to protect her children.
    5. His younger sisters, the victims apparently, got no help, either. Their ability to form future intimate relationships are at risk.
    A…

  • Pr Chris

    + The current situation is that the Duggars can’t be prosecuted for not reporting, and statute of limitations has expired.
    + Josh can’t be prosecuted because of statute of limitations.
    + Josh might have been able to grow (likely no sex ed in homeschooling) if he had gotten counseling. Now, he’s just a time bomb.
    + The sisters got no counseling, either. They are at risk for psychiatric problems; they will likely have difficulties with intimate relationships with men, and sustaining a marriage is going to be highly problematic. And being a submissive wive is entire goal for girls in this “version” of Christianity.

  • Shawnie5

    Sid, Max is not simply picking and choosing quotes: he is deliberately altering them, truncating them, and misattributing them. Truth is not his object; he does this in order to convert the ignorant to his position and he can not do that and be honest at the same time.

  • Shawnie5

    God doesn’t create robots, Sid.

  • Shawnie5

    Oh please. There is a point — which is why Ben is not answering the question.. If you don’t see where I’m going with this then you’re a bit over your head in here.

  • Shawnie5

    “Thomas Jefferson was ignorant of Darwinism – he was unable to avail himself of the final answer to this question. There is no designer.”

    I’m afraid you are in no position to decide whether Darwinism would have replaced Jefferson’s faith in a Creator or not–no one is interested in your speculations. In any case, Darwinism does not present any “final answers” to the mystery of life and existence. That is no more within reach now than it was then.

    “Because our founders hated religion ”

    Why do you continue to insist this when the founders’ words clearly stated the opposite?

    “And you further claim that faith is the INSPIRATION for this Atheist Constitution – another disgusting lie.”

    We know the framers prayed for God’s guidance in fashioning this Constitution, at the behest of one of the founders who you claim “hated religion.” And we know that they attributed our fundamental rights enshrined therein to the Creator.

    Instead of tantrumming…study up.

  • Shawnie:

    “study up…”

    Yes – YOU SHOULD!

    “During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”
    – James Madison

    “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”
    – James Madison
    letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774

    “The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.”
    – James Madison -1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches

    “The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.”
    – Benjamin Franklin

    The founders hated religion. AND RIGHTLY SO.

  • Ben in oakland

    @ be brave

    And yet, all the while you claim you are being silenced, here you are!

    And still going on and on about your obsession with boys having sex with adults.

    Charming. But keep it up. As I keep telling you, you do so much of our work for us.

  • Shawnie5

    In the words of Franklin writing to his sister in 1743: “You express yourself as if you thought I was against Worshipping of God, and believed Good Works would merit Heaven; which are both Fancies of your own, I think, without Foundation. I am so far from thinking that God is not to be worshipped, that I have compos’d and wrote a whole Book of Devotions for my own Use.”

    Doesn’t sound to me like he hated religion at all.

  • Shawnie5

    As for Madison, he wrote a letter to the selfsame William Bradford in 1773 encouraging him to consider becoming a clergyman:

    “I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of Religion or against temporal Enjoyments even the most rational and manly than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfatoriness by becoming fervent Advocates in the cause of Christ, & I wish you may give in your Evidence in this way.”

    Doesn’t sound to me like he hated religion (or clergymen) either. He DID hate establishment of religion, as I do, since it turns clergymen into bureaucrats and does indeed produce pride and indolence in the clergy and ignorance and servility in the laity (a condition which persists to this day in Europe), but that is a far cry from hating religion.

    Get off the atheist propaganda sites and read real history.

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  • @Shawnie:

    “Let’s put Jesus into our Constitution” – John Jay (the only American Founder who was a Christian)

    “ABSOLUTELY NOT! No Gods or set of laws claimed to be written by such gods are so special that I would give it any weight over our human laws” – James Madison

    “I agree with James Madison, claims about what constitutes God’s laws are a joke! Keep it out!” – Benjamin Franklin

    “Just look what those religious claims did to Europe. God’s laws are all made up out of thin air by clergy! Disgusting! We don’t need it!” – Thomas Jefferson

    “This is not a Christian nation! Keep it out!” – George Washington

    “Wherever cults preach, people rise up and commit genocides. Keep God out, keep reason in!” – John Adams

    “Keep God away from this Constitution! COMPLETELY!” – Alexander Hamilton

    Based on what they PUT in the Constitution – that is what they MUST HAVE SAID!

  • Garson Abuita

    It was a holiday weekend, check today’s RNS, it’s the top story

  • Shawnie5

    LOL! Again, Max, we have the Federalist Papers and volumes of founders’ collected personal papers and correspondence, easily accessible online. Nobody is interested in speculations about what they might have secretly said or thought–particularly from someone who has studied NONE of it. Sorry.

  • CCM, I took pains to state that I was not defending josh in any way. I am not trying to prove he didn’t rape the victims, nor am I asserting that he didn’t. I said he hasn’t been accused of that . Therefore this law of the Torah doesn’t apply to the situation.

  • Larry

    According to Jim Bob Duggar, people who commit rape and incest should be executed…..unless its my son. Then everything should be swept under the rug.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/05/26/jim-bob-duggar-circa-2002-those-who-commit-incest-should-receive-the-death-penalty/

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