July 15, 2015

Planned Parenthood blasted after secret video purports to show fetal tissue sales

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Planned Parenthood faces criticism for a program that provides tissue from aborted fetuses for medical research. RNS photo courtesy Shutterstock.com.

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Planned Parenthood claims the now-viral video was heavily edited and falsely portrayed the reproductive health group's participation in providing tissue for medical research. Abortion critics call the sales an 'atrocity.'

  • Dominic

    There are just no words to describe the utter depravity of this story. And we thought that acts like this occurred only on the black market, in China, or somewhere. No, its a good old American Planned Parenthood service. Like a butcher shop. Those poor, innocent little babies. God help us all.

  • Contending for Truth

    Is this a surprise to anyone? This is the fruit of an atheist worldview.

    Ghouls will do what ghouls do.

  • John

    The truth of what Planned Parenthood is has now been revealed, but will there be outrage? Yes, but it will be directed at the video and how it was taken as opposed to the content of the discussion therein. Evil to the core!

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  • Contending for Truth

    Anyone notice that “Comments are off” in all of the LGBT propaganda articles lately?

    I guess this is how “inclusion” is going to be plied in the LGBT trade.

    Hopefully God will take care of this and root out the hatefulness towards Christians that is at the roots of the anti-Christian LGBT agenda and will finally expose the LGBT pride movement for the malevolent force stalking The Church that it is.

    Oh yeah, Planned parenthood?

    Monstrous.

    Of course.

  • Larry

    Do we have a confirmation for the video which does not come from a wingnut source?

    Even snopes.com (the internet BS detector) showed much of the story behind this video appears to be a fabrication.
    http://snopes.com/pp-baby-parts-sale/

    Aside from hysteria from people already predisposed to demonize Planned Parenthood we don’t see anything that appears credible here.

    As stated in the article ‘NO FINANCIAL BENEFIT’ for donation of fetal tissue for medical research.

    Articles dissecting the video and demonstrating its probably fiction:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/07/14/1402287/-The-Center-for-Medical-Progress-s-bogus-hitjob-on-Planned-Parenthood

    http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/44832_The_Huge_Right_Wing_Anti-Choice_Fake_Outrage_of_the_Day

    Given the propensity of conservative christians to lie like cheap rugs, I would chalk this up to a hoax meant to rile people up.

  • Larry
  • Contending for Truth

    There is no human conscience in the atheistic mindset. But what is ironic, is that evolution does not side with aborting healthy, normal offspring. If anything, the woman that will kill their healthy offspring, should actually be removed from the gene pool. Planned parenthood was begun by a movement to remove lesser than humans from breeding. Now it is following that evil to its logical end. Humans as products.

    Soylent Green is people !!!!

    Of course, what a godless society is all about when you peel away the very thin façade from atheism. It’s just plain old Satanic incarnate evil doing what personified malevolence does.

  • John

    Larry – read the news feeds on this story. Planned Parenthood acknowledges the video and the conversation, but their position is that they are discussing “tissue donation.” The story is legit, and the spin has begun.

  • MarkE

    Larry, I agree with you. But I also shudder to think that somehow someone could “edit” the conversation recording to make the doctor sound so cavalier – it is very matter-of-fact, which disturbs those with little to no exposure to medical profession and bio-industry. There is room here to be upset by the implied emotionless tone of the conversation. What can’t be in dispute is that the overall video is a hack job to stir up the anti-choice crowd.

  • ctd

    None of those links refute the basic facts.

  • Larry

    No they don’t.

    They say the context of the conversation is completely misrepresented. The story is garbage. The video doesn’t hold up to close scrutiny.

    Here is their own statement:
    http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about-us/newsroom/press-releases/statement-from-planned-parenthood-on-new-undercover-video

    “A well funded group established for the purpose of damaging Planned Parenthood’s mission and services has promoted a heavily edited, secretly recorded videotape that falsely portrays Planned Parenthood’s participation in tissue donation programs that support lifesaving scientific research. Similar false accusations have been put forth by opponents of abortion services for decades. These groups have been widely discredited and their claims fall apart on closer examination, just as they do in this case”

  • Doc Anthony

    Please don’t insult ghouls by comparing them to Planned Parenthood. Ghouls are professionals. They work themselves to the bone (so to speak), precisely to avoid looking like Planned Parenthood.

  • Larry

    …because of …….?

  • Contend for Trurh

    Larry,

    What if YOU are the duped?

    Abortion IS as horrific, as purely evil as it is, when you actually think this through.

    That Planned Parenthood is setting up another division of its sales factory should come as no surprise to anyone with a mind that can still think and FEEL.

    Why waste the ability to make money, LOTS OF MONEY from “tissue?”

    PP is the natural evolution of the evil that is secularism.

    Maybe you need to wake up Larry? Ever “think” about that?

  • Contend for Trurh

    …because of …….?

    Because of what an abortion ACTUALLY IS.

    By why let facts get in the way of evil huh?

  • Larry

    3 Deceptive Edits In The Video Claiming Planned Parenthood Is “Selling Aborted Baby Parts”
    http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/07/14/attack-on-planned-parenthood-
    3-deceptive-edits/204419

    Newsweek chimes in
    http://www.newsweek.com/after-video-accuses-planned-parenthood-selling-body-parts-bobby-jindal-353828
    “At no point in the video does Nucatola say Planned Parenthood actually sells body parts, fetal or otherwise, though the center has claimed Planned Parenthood is involved in the “illegal trafficking of aborted fetal parts.”

    Face it fetus worshipers, the story is a hoax.

  • Andy

    So the Snopes article was taken down or is the link bad?

    I think this is instructive as well:

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/dear-dr.-nucatola-i-used-to-harvest-fetal-tissue-for-planned-parenthood-too

    Fetal tissue, body parts, entire fetuses are used for research and they are sold or donated. The video wasn’t ‘heavily edited’ and is available in its 2 and half hour entirety.

    It would seem to take a seared conscience to work for industry that uses such parts.

  • Larry

    You already showed you were lazy in your accusations about LGBT links here. What makes you think I need to take you seriously now?

    Conservative Christians are pretty notorious for making crap up in order to suit their agendas. I see no reason to take a heavily edited video by a group looking to defame Planned Parenthood at face value. Their own story doesn’t even hold up under basic scrutiny

    “Why waste the ability to make money, LOTS OF MONEY from “tissue?” ”

    Heavy regulation, medical ethics, practical concerns (tissue and organs have a short shelf life)

    Besides, how would you know how lucrative such business is? You sound like you want to engage in that kind of activities. Try watching “The Island” or “Coma” to see how that could work. 🙂

  • Eleanor

    Even if Planned Parenthood isn’t profiting off the fetal tissue, women’s health proponents should be concerned about the doctor saying that Planned Parenthood changes the abortion procedure to “meet the needs of a company, rather than being focused on the core purpose of her clinic, which is to provide a safe medical procedure.”

    According to the Washington Post, that’s also illegal: “Federal regulations also prohibit anyone from altering the timing or method of an abortion for the sole purpose of later using the tissue in research.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/undercover-video-shows-planned-parenthood-exec-discussing-organ-harvesting/2015/07/14/ae330e34-2a4d-11e5-bd33-395c05608059_story.html

  • Larry,

    If you want to watch the whole video for context, it is freely available: https://youtu.be/upLueoQsWVA

    Not a hoax. Planned Parenthood harvests fetal organs and sends them to companies. No one is disputing that. PP, however, spins it as a “humanitarian effort.”

  • Larry

    The snopes site is up and running. Try this one
    http://m.snopes.com/pp-baby-parts-sale/

    Lifesitenews is not a reliable source. It is an anti-abortion cheering section. Every objectively reliable news source is demonstrating the video is worthless. Its obvious the issue was compensation for transportation of DONATED tissue.

    This is not the first hoax video by anti-abortion supporters. It won’t be the last. This has been a regular tactic by them. Lying for the Lord.

  • Larry

    The Washington Post article you cited is reporting:

    “But the video does not show Nucatola explicitly talking about selling organs.”

    “The Center for Medical Progress was established by Daleiden, a controversial antiabortion activist who previously worked with Live Action, another antiabortion group known for its “stings” of Planned Parenthood using actors and undercover videos.”
    ——
    Those “prior stings” have all been later revealed as outright hoaxes. No reason to believe this is genuine on its face.

  • Larry

    If it is the “whole video”. You can’t verify that and neither will youtube. Opponents of PP have tried this sort of “gotcha” hoax before, they continue to do so. The credibility of this sort of thing is non-existent.

  • Larry

    The basic facts are the anti-abortion crowd has engaged in this kind of fraudulent behavior against Planned Parenthood in the past using the same tactics. In every instance the accusations against PP have proven to be fabrications.

    If you had a POV of any real worth, why do you guys have to lie so frequently?

  • Andy

    Larry, the Snopes conclusion is that it is undetermined as is Snopes reliability as a source as their methods were conclusively disputed a few years ago.

    I thought the lifesite article was quite instructive: The former PP director did not dispute the claims and she did not say that the fetuses/body parts/tissues were sold either; only donated as part of the process as was her function within her clinic.

  • Lou

    It strikes me as odd that the comments convey an assumption that the video is accurate. Given that anyone can have sufficient editing software on a PC or Apple at home to do major editing, I don’t find the source of the video credible. The comments seem to prove that there is a serious lack of critical thinking in the United States and that emotional, reactionary arguments prevail. I find insufficient evidence here to demonstrate that Planned Parenthood did or did not do anything related to this topic.

  • This is made of spin potential. The producers showed their target audience what they expected to see. Most won’t watch the 2-hour video or read the transcript because it already fits their narrative.

    Digging a bit reveals that the person in the video isn’t selling anything, much less body parts. Many of us donate our bodies to science. Some women who seek abortions occasionally consent to donate those remains too. Frank conversations like the one in the video occur all the time over donated remains. An skillfully edited video of one of these conversations would also be disturbing.

    Also, if the producers wanted to expose a crime, this footage would’ve gone to the authorities. But it didn’t. Why? Because donating human remains is legal with informed consent. The producers know this. Their goal isn’t justice. They want to inflame their constituency, playing on emotions for the sake of provoking a reaction. And, they succeeded. Too bad.

  • Doc Anthony

    Oh please Larry. Are you really trying to *defend* this latest PP abomination? Sorry dude, but THIS stuff is straight outta Peter Cushing and Christopher Lee.

    This is the same Planned Parenthood that previously got caught (on video) happily accepting donations specifically targeted on aborting BLACK babies. These zombie vampires only care about $$$$$, not women, not babies (and certainly not blacks).

    But wiping out black babies wasn’t Boris Karloff enough for Planned Parenthood, it seems. So NOW they’re gotten into the big-time, haven’t they Larry?

    Selling chopped-up PP babies (with no anasthesia for the babies) to the highest bidder for “research”. All that’s missing is “Igor”, ready to load up a morbid horse-drawn hearse with the goods!

    Pitiful, Larry. Just Pee-Tee-Full. But old Victor Frankenstein would be proud of Planned Parenthood, for sure.

  • Larry

    Doc, thank you for bringing up previous video hoaxes against Planned Parenthood.
    http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/religious-right-leaders-rush-embrace-hoax-video-attack-planned-parenthood

    That story was bogus as well. Done by the same people, LiveAction.
    Good to see that lying for the Lord has not gone out of style. 🙂

  • Michael Glass

    The question here is not whether abortion is right or wrong, but whether this video is on the level. There seems to be quite a bit of doubt about the bona fides of the video. More damaging, the longer video gives a different impression from the heavily edited version.

  • Doc Anthony

    Hardly a “hoax”, Larry. That’s already been demonstrated.

    (For example, why did Planned Parenthood offer an apology in March of 2008 if the “Black Babies” video was just a hoax? Hmm?)

    The fact is that PP simply got caught back then, just like they’ve now gotten caught in the 2015 “Dr. Frankenstein Baby Parts Garage Sale” video. Like most amateur crooks, they just keep on getting caught.)

  • Doc Anthony

    And by the way, you didn’t deny what I said about “No anasthesia for the chopped-up babies.” Whether the vultures of PP are actually selling their sliced-and-diced victims, or merely donating their sliced-and-diced victims, their victims ARE having to get cut up without anathesia. That is a Planned Parenthood hallmark.

    And occasionally, MOMMY doesn’t get any anathesia either !!!!

    http://mediatrackers.org/colorado/2013/03/05/planned-parenthood-clinic-faces-lawsuit-claiming-negligence-battery

  • DougSlug

    Thanks for the level-headed comments, J.C. It’s clear this whole thing is intended to inflame and polarize–standard operating procedure for the media. Being involved in the biomedical field myself, I didn’t find this to be that strange or evocative of emotional response, but maybe that’s also because I’m an atheist who is capable of separating the notion of sanctifying human tissue from real life.

  • Larry

    Doc, what has been demonstrated is the anti-abortion crowd and conservative Christians in general are willing to accept any kind of fabrication and fictions to support their views. But they are terrible at making such things appear credible outside of their own little uncritical circle. Btw your link is garbage. The lawsuit made allegations that went nowhere.

    Yes Doc, you guys lie frequently in efforts to attack Planned Parenthood. Thank you for making that obviously clear.

    You didn’t deny what I said about “No anasthesia for the chopped-up babies.”

    When I lumped it in with various other hoaxes I thought I made that clear. I am denying it. You have nothing but a lawsuit allegation from 2013 that went nowhere.

  • karen

    Larry- dailykos and planned parenthood are not reliable sources. And since you are so clearly a biased brick wall against anything from conservatives, Christians or the right, just focus on the concerns of Prof Laurie Zoloft from Northwestern, whom you can’t characterize as wildly offbase by any stretch of the imagination.

  • @Dominic,

    The depravity in this story is not in the abortions – the vast majority of which are no more like a baby than the clump of cells you wash off your nose in the shower every day ! The photo of the fetus is irresponsible when discussing abortion – the vast majority of abortions are not fetuses!

    Nor is it depraved to acquire knowledge for medical research.

    The depravity is in Planned Parenthood’s profound failure to help educate people and to develop best practices. Planned parenthood has been underfunded thanks to religious politics over decades.

    Abortion is the LAW – it is a woman’s right. It is 100% Legal in every state.
    If you want to see fewer abortions, do everything you can to promote contraception and fund sex education.

  • Doc Anthony

    “Every provider had patients who want to donate their tissue, and they absolutely want to accommodate them. They just want to do it in a way that is not perceived as ‘this clinic is selling tissue, this clinic is making money off of this.’” — PP officer Dr. Nucatola

    (Exactly. Straight out of “Intro Frankenstein 101”. Make sure the burgher-meister doesn’t catch on that body parts got sold, even if they did.)

    “You know, I would throw a number out, and I would say it’s probably anywhere from $30 to $100 (per specimen) depending on the facility and what’s involved.”

    (Ditto. Just say it’s donation expenses or something.)

    “At the national office, we have a Litigation and Law Department which just really doesn’t want us to be the middle people for this issue right now,” she says. “But I will tell you that behind closed doors these conversations are happening with the affiliates.”

    Anything can happen behind closed doors. Welcome to Planned Parenthood!!

  • Abortions are not “The fruit of an Atheist world view.”

    Abortions happen because RELIGION forbids sex education classes for children.
    Abortions happen because RELIGION forbids contraception.
    Abortions happen because poorly educated people blunder into sexual situations without proper protection and without social support.

    An aborted zygote is not a fetus with lungs and fingers!
    The ignorance on this issue is despicable.

  • @Michael Trent,

    The video is completely doctored to make this look more sinister than it is.

    98% of ABORTIONS are just tiny clumps of cells you would NOT EVEN BE ABLE TO SEE without a microscope! They are no more than the cells you wash off your feet in a bathtub!

  • Larry

    Yet Newsweek and every other mainstream source on the subject is saying the same things:
    1. The video is heavily edited
    2. At no point is there an actual reference to selling body parts
    3. There is a history of these kinds hoax videos against PP
    4. PP sometimes deals with donated tissue.

    Prof Laurie Zoloft is also a professor of religious studies. She was commenting on the video with the assumption (made by all the anti-abortion people here without any actual support) that the video was genuine.

    So yes, I can characterize her statements as off wildly off base because she is starting off with a base assumption of taking the video at face value. An assumption which does not appear to be reasonable as time goes on.

    The problem being that one cannot ignore the history of such hoaxes and false accusations against PP in the past by anti-abortion organizations. There is absolutely no reason to consider this as anything else.

  • @MarkE,

    “A hack job to stir up the anti-choice crowd”

    Exactly.
    And the profound ignorance of Americans regarding sex – the inevitability of sexual activity, the importance of contraception and the basics of abortion is inexcusable.

    Ignorance about abortion is directly proportional to ignorance of science.
    America is doomed if education isn’t improved dramatically in both areas soon.

  • @Larry,

    Yup. The video is a total hack job to discredit Planned Parenthood.

  • Jack

    Max, the doctor is discussing actual parts of a body to sell…..in this particular instance, it’s beyond a “clump of cells.”

    You’re really coming across as quite an airhead.

  • Jack

    Max, again, the doctor is discussing body parts to sell. What you’re saying has nothing to do with the matter at hand.

  • Jack

    Contending for Truth, I don’t see that……What I do see is that certain bloggers, like Elian Cruz and Jonathan Merritt, no longer accept comments, presumably because they’re thin-skinned and are not interested in what others have to say.

  • Jack

    Actually, Max, it’s the other way around. Many pro-choice people seem to know absolutely nothing about the science of fetal development. They seem to think it’s a “blob” that magically becomes a baby at birth.

    I agree that the ignorance of science on this issue is appalling, but it’s far more on your side than on the pro-life side.

  • TheCountess

    Months ago I reported in comments about Pepsi and Nabisco products of which
    Creamora is one (both these products have been removed from my diet), have been given tissue for the sole purpose of enhancing flavor. I can call this nothing but cannibalism. And that alone is beyond disgust. Remember the movie “Soylent Green’? Charleston Heston. Why in the world has both ‘food and drug’ been combined into one agency? Why?

  • Jack

    Contra Larry’s clumsy attempt to discredit Zoloth:

    Laurie Zoloth, a professor of medical humanities and bioethics at Northwestern University, said in an emailed reply to a request for comment that the film was “being used to inflame people about abortion, about which there is a substantial consensus, that abortion should be legal, and rare.”

    However, Zoloth said it was “terribly disturbing because the physician seems to be engaged in a transaction in which the goal is to extract tissue to meet the needs of a company, rather than being focused on the core purpose of her clinic, which is to provide a safe medical procedure.”

    She termed that “an obvious conflict of interest.”

    Zoloth also pointed to the attitude of the physician in the video, observing, “The doctor seems extraordinarily cavalier … Having this discussion over a meal, while drinking what appears to be wine, takes this further from the realm of professional clinical medicine and into the realm of business.”

  • TheCountess

    Fetal tissue is the single most productive purpose in Planned Parenthood, clinics at large, abortion at large. Huge dollar revenue. Food, drugs are ladened with tissue. It is the industries main industry. And I believe if all those contemplating abortion could be told this awful truth, it would halt the abortion ‘industry’. Make no mistake, abortion is a profitable industry. And the result is cannibalism.

  • The Great God Pan

    Cruz and Merritt are selling the myth that Christianity is “progressive” and “inclusive.” Having RNS’s right-wing readership spouting off in the comments would reveal their message as a sham.

  • The Great God Pan

    Doctors are cavalier and emotionless by nature. They’re creepier when they try to feign normal human behavior, frankly.

  • The Great God Pan

    You’re right to be skeptical.

    The video was made by David Daleiden, who is friends with video hoaxster and convicted wiretapper James O’Keefe, and also has apparent ties to Chuck Johnson (the self-styled “journalist” who offered $2,000 to anyone willing to sneak into a nursing home and take photos of a Democratic senator’s dementia-stricken wife. The sucker who took the offer was sentenced to 2 1/2 years in prison).

  • The Great God Pan

    Pepsi and Nabisco are secretly feeding people human tissue, huh?

    Well, this story is really bringing out the crazies! I encourage you crazies to keep spreading nonsense about Nabisco and Pepsi feeding people human tissue, and be sure to identify as a pro-life Christian when you do so. You are really doing your cause a great service. Keep up the good work!

  • Larry

    Jack, anyone who is commenting on the video by taking it at face value discredits themselves. As you do right now.

    There are enough reliable sources eviscerating this thing as a dishonestly edited hack job. One which does not show what people are claiming it does when viewed in a less edited form.

    So her comments are pretty worthless since she is making an assumption concerning what it depicts which is not supported by the facts.

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  • Jack

    Now that’s a pretty lame excuse if ever I’ve heard one.

    Try again.

  • Jack

    But you, Larry, pointedly tried to discredit her by noting that she teaches within the realm of religion (as if that were enough to do so). You conveniently avoided the first part of her statement, in which she shows herself to be emphatically pro-choice on abortion, thus making your attempt to disqualify her opinion an irrelevancy.

  • Larry

    Now you are just splitting hairs, taking comments out of context and strawmanning, as usual. The video is phony. I don’t feel like following you down the rabbit hole of your selective interpretations. Unless you wish to chime in on the video’s alleged authenticity, you have nothing I need to respond to.

  • Doc, your record as a member of the commentariat here remains untarnished. It’s ever so easy to spin someone’s sensitivity to public perceptions as indicative of impropriety. Propagandists love to do this, which is likely why the producers left those remarks in the edited version. They reinforce their narrative. As for the numbers, you may think shipping remains is simply a matter of packing them in tupperware and jogging over to the neighbor’s house, but out here in the real world shipping is costly. Even a spot of dried blood on filter paper can cost $30+ dollars to ship, while plasma, umbilical cord blood, etc. can cost well over $100 taking basic preservation methods into account.

    You may prefer to buy into the idea of shady, backroom dealing in human remains at PP, but since that would require collusion on the part of any state regulatory agencies involved, not to mention much higher dollar amounts, I think I’ll stick with a more parsimonious explanation.

  • Jack,

    “Many pro-choice people know nothing…”

    At least they know enough to be pro-choice.
    The vast majority of abortions happen long before it even becomes a clump of cells – smaller than the head of a pin.

    A zygote is not a baby.
    And no life form is so important that it has the right to supersede the rights of the life which keeps it alive.
    Otherwise, your organs could be harvested against your will “to save a life.”
    You won’t want to live in such a world.

  • Barry the Baptist

    I just finished reading the transcript for this video. There is a lot of the conversation that is taken out of context and much of the discussion is being omitted from media portrayals.

    This doctor repeatedly emphasizes that this is not, and should not, be about money; it is about cost. She also mentions properly acquiring consent, the importance of research, and even offers an anecdote explaining why she is in this line of work.

    If interested in critically reading the whole conversation, check out the transcript: http://www.centerformedicalprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/PPFAtranscript072514_final.pdf

    For those who just want to muck-rake and point fingers–I saw a lot of non-sequiturs about atheists–you can read it, too. If you can critically analyse it, so much the better.

    For those of you for whom grammar is an important thing: be warned. It is poorly edited, especially for a transcript that has emerged a whole year after the conversation. Very unprofessional.

  • @Jack,

    “Airhead..”

    No. The issue is not “body parts to sell”.
    The claims about this video are untrue – the entire thing is a misdirection.
    The enemies of Planned Parenthood want to spread the lie that most abortions are of fetuses. This is not true.
    Nor is it true that body parts are being offered for sale by Planned Parenthood or anyone else.

    Nobody in the video was offering money to anyone for body parts of aborted babies. The video is deliberately misleading.

  • Doug, I would think your experience in biomed might have something to do with your feelings too. I rather think the relative ignorance on the subject and the priming of the audience against PP and abortion in general is behind the melodrama. Politicians, of course, are only too happy to leverage non-events like this to ignite their base. It’s a win-win for the Religious Right.

  • Jack

    Nice dodge, Max.

    Will you admit that there is no difference between a child in its mother’s womb a minute or a day before birth and that same child minutes after birth?

    If yes, you’re accepting of science. If not, you’re just another bug-eyed fanatic who puts ideology ahead of science.

  • Jack

    No, Larry, I’m staying on the point. Your omission of Zoloth’s pro-choice sentiments was deliberate, as evidenced by your diversionary tactic implying religiosity as her motive for being a decent, objective human being, not an ideological fanatic like yourself.

  • Jack

    Pan, you should know by now that ad hominem arguments against the pro-life position don’t work. Even if every pro-lifer in the world were both gullible and certifiably insane, and even if every pro-life video presentation is an utter fraud, Americans are not buying the radical pro-abortion message, for the simple reason that anyone can now go online and see fetal development for themselves, apart from pro-life or pro-choice web sites.

    All the weasel words in the world can no longer cover up the obvious, that which any biology class will affirm:

    Human life does not magically begin at birth.

  • Larry

    Whatever. It looks like nothing but wankery from here. 🙂

  • Larry

    But when crazy people come in supporting the fetus worshipers it does wonders for their credibility. 🙂

    Feel free to evaluate TheCountess’s claims that Planned Parenthood is colluding with Nabisco to put fetus parts in non-dairy creamer.

    Given the hysterical comments by the anti-abortion crowd here so far, I think she fits right in.

    “Human life does not magically begin at birth”

    Was never the issue when it came to abortion’s legality. You can’t take custody of a fetus from someone. That was a fact of biology which always eluded anti-abortion arguments. Hence the reliance of s1ut-shaming and pretending a fetus is exactly in the same physical position as a born child.

  • TheCountess
  • Dominic

    Max, no, you are wrong on every count. A “clump of cells” is human life growing in a woman’s wound. Marketing its parts for research or saving other lives is unfathomable. This is the direct result of legalizing abortion….it has opened the door for even more egregious crimes. How you can justify this is appalling.

  • Dominic

    Abortion should be condemned by humanity itself. We are killing our own species. Religion is not the barricade that forces women to abort. Sexual carelessness and a grandiose disregard of life has led people to beg for legal abortions…..it gives it the aura of a thoughtful choice instead of the murder it is.

  • Dominic

    I agree. No comments means everyone agrees with the journalist. Now, few people read their articles.

  • Dominic

    The “pristineness” of this video is of no importance at all. If one sentence is true it is an abomination. No study is needed. Planned Parenthood sells body parts, parts they have literally torn off of a living human being. No one can deny this.

  • Dominic

    You are appalling. “First, do no harm”. Sound familiar.

  • Doc Anthony

    Well, Larry denies it. JC Samuelson denies it. Anything to $ave a profitable Butcher $hop.

    “Chop-Em-and-Drop-Em”, yeah. Welcome to Planned Parenthood !!

  • Greg1

    Larry might just be Josh Earnest, Obama’s Press Secretary. He could even watch the raw footage of this despicable group of people selling baby parts from aborted infants, and still call it a phony clip. I’ll say this much, if you are not Josh Earnest, or Jay Carney, then you ought to try out for the part. Only people who can make it up as they go along could play such a role.

  • Shawnie5

    Um, Jack, remember what I said about “slut-shaming?” 😀

  • Dominic,

    A clump of cells – that’s all a zygote is. Get over it!

    And you have NO right to tell a woman what to do with her body. NONE.

    And if you persist in enforcing an anti-abortion policy – you should be prepared to allow doctors to harvest your kidneys or any other organs in order to save the lives of others – regardless of how you feel about it.

    Because that is what you are insisting women do!
    If a woman does not want to carry a baby – for whatever reason she decides at the time – she HAS THE RIGHT to say “Get this out of me!”

    Don’t like it? Too bad.

  • @Dominic,

    “Sexual carelessness..”

    !!!!
    What do you NOT UNDERSTAND?
    People who have NO education about sexuality
    and NO education about how babies are made
    and NO education about contraception
    and NO ACCESS TO CONTRACEPTION
    are not
    People who know how TO BE CAREFUL!

    Ignorance of sex is what creates abortions.
    And ignorance of LAW is what closes abortion centers.

    All of this sexual ignorance is spread by religion.
    Shame on you for creating so many abortions by promoting so much ignorance!

  • Jack

    “Separating the notion of sanctifying human tissue from real life”

    DougSlug, if that’s not a prime example of empty rhetoric masquerading as meaningful content, nothing is.

  • Jack

    Yes, Shawnie, I do remember. Odd talk for a lad.

  • Jack

    Larry, it’s obvious that there is no rational or moral distinction between life seconds before birth and life after birth. To believe otherwise is to leave science and sanity and enter a world of superstition and self-delusion.

  • Jack

    Max, the immediate issue here isn’t abortion but whether or to what extent the video is accurate, but if you want to talk about abortion, don’t, because your position is rationally incoherent, scientifically illiterate, and morally bankrupt.

  • Jack

    I agree with you, Max in one respect:

    Being an atheist doesn’t make one pro-abortion.

    Atheists are as capable of anyone of seeing what’s wrong with that position. Plenty of atheists have a serious problem with abortion.

    Apparently, you don’t, but you’re in the obvious throes of a “free-at-last” mid-life crisis and so nothing you say should surprise anyone.

  • Jack

    It’s all a conspiracy, Michael. Someone is dubbing in the words. Don’t believe your lying eyes or ears…..believe with your whole heart that those e-vile pro-lifers have doctored literally everything, from start to finish, and it will become real to you if you keep repeating it to yourself in mantra-like fashion.

  • Jack

    It “looks like” you dissemble so casually, it means nothing to you anymore……..whatever.

  • Jack

    Dominic writes: “if one sentence [in the video] is true it is an abomination.”

    Exactly.

  • Jack

    Larry does this on other issues, too. Larry is just being Larry.

  • Larry

    Pretty much. Pro-life extremists have been doing this sort of phony video campaigns and disinformation campaign for some time.

    Your sarcasm would have meant something if not for the literally dozens of hoaxes against Planned Parenthood done over the years.
    The credibility of videos like this and of their supporters is non-existent.

  • DougSlug

    Jack, in reviewing your responses, it seems your idea of “meaningful content” is making personal attacks complaining about how we state our opinions instead of addressing the issue directly. Unfortunately, your rhetoric repeatedly fails to make an actual point.

  • “Will you admit that there is no difference between a child in its mother’s womb a minute or a day before birth and that same child minutes after birth? ”

    Nope. Not ever. Late term abortions have a legitimate reason to be banned in many cases due to viability to live on the outside. But short of that threshold, you are making a patently false statement. A fetus is not a baby.

    Conflating the two is why your position is never going to overturn Casey v. Planned Parenthood. (The decision which revised and replaced Roe v. Wade). Human beings besides the mother can take custody of a born child. Only the mother keeps a fetus alive. So your premise that there is no difference between them is complete garbage.

  • “Larry, it’s obvious that there is no rational or moral distinction between life seconds before birth and life after birth. ”

    That is a false argument as well. Late term abortions can clearly be banned due to viability to live outside the womb without ever having to listen to pro-life whining. But short of that, biology just works against your nonsense conflation of a baby with a fetus. If it can’t live outside the womb it is very different from being born.

    Better luck next time Jack.

  • Too bad the story is a hysterical distortion of the facts.

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/pepsi.asp

  • So you and Dominic are uncritical fools easily willing to believe anything which suits your agenda. We get that already. 🙂

  • Except it doesn’t. I can’t help it if you guys are committed to supporting an obvious hoax. Just one more reason why it is foolish to take fundies at their word or expect them to use critical thinking.

    When in doubt you guys would rather fling poo than try to support your position in a credible manner. What else is new?

  • Jack

    Actually, Max, it’s more than “a clump of cells” at every stage in the pregnancy, including early in the first trimester. People like you are either deceived or try to deceive others into equating small size with “clump of cells,” but that’s a scientifically ignorant equation. Even when the embryo is less than an inch, the beginnings of a brain, spinal cord, heart and GI tract are there. By the 5th week, a steady heartbeat is detectable. There isn’t even enough space in this comment bar to summarize how much development takes place in the first trimester alone….and again, much of it early on.

    So next time, do some research on development before posting.

  • Shawnie5

    Nah, Josh is a Rice University grad. Even he wouldn’t.cite garbage like snopes, wikipedia, rightwingwatch or any of Larry’s usual convenience-store bibliography.

  • Jack

    The most striking thing about Planned Parenthood is its support for abortion any time, any place, for any reason, right up to birth.

    In order to do that, you must gut your conscience like a fish.

    Most Americans draw lines somewhere….Planned Parenthood draws no such lines anywhere.

    And when Planned Parenthood officials are questioned about this, they come across as programmed, dead-eyed robots, reciting their creed in mantra-like fashion.

  • Jack

    Are you cutting Josh a break because he’s from Rice? A certain place high above Cayuga’s waters, okay. But Rice?

    Kidding…..

  • Jack

    Larry, that’s silly. It’s the same baby, seconds before as seconds after. And even after birth, it doesn’t stop being dependent on the mother.

    Even if you donned your wizard’s hat, stood in front of a woman giving birth, waved a wand above her, and chanted the gibberish of your choice, you would not change this fact.

    You would, however, get arrested for trespassing.

  • Jack

    I’m trying to picture a conversation between Larry and his wife when she was in her third trimester:

    Larry’s wife: “The baby…..is kicking…..”

    Larry: “You’re just imagining it….it’s a blob until birth.”

    Larry’s wife: “Ugh….didn’t you remember what they told us in that class we took….you know, the one about development?”

    Larry: “Humbug. Just pro-life propaganda.”

    Larry’s wife: “No, it was sponsored by the American Medical Association…..why oh why did I marry an ideological fanatic? I can’t even talk to him about my baby!”

  • jim ludwig

    And you know this how?

  • Karen

    Your ignorance is despicable! Before you take a stand on something you might want to be at least somewhat educated on the subject!

  • Karen

    Max,
    I have never washed a heartbeat off my feet! Do you even understand what you are saying or are you just saying what you would like to think. We can discuss this all night, it doesn’t really matter what you or I think. It is what it is! Stopping a heartbeat is not the same as washing a blob of gunk off your feet. Believe in what you want but educate your self to the truth!!

  • Eddie

    An atheist reading Religion News? Not buying it- who is paying you Max ? Paid trolls – what a job

  • Shawnie5

    Slightly off-topic, but several years ago when I used to be more interested in gender issues I participated in an online discussion at a popular leftist site that concerned the future of reproductive technology and abortion. The hypothetical was a fetus removed from the mother and placed in an artificial womb in to be adopted Instead of aborted. It was telling how troubling most people found this idea. Clearly what they desired was not the right to end a pregnancy but to secure the death of a child whose very existence is unwanted. I always remember that discussion whenever I encounter that eerie coldness of conscience of the pro-abortion camp.

  • Greg1

    Indeed. What we are honestly seeing here is demonic influence that has reached critical levels. Anyone who believes the Devil is not doing his work through Planned Parenthood is myopic. Their work is pure evil.

  • Dominic

    The agenda is clear in the video, it is neither mine nor Jack’s. I think you enjoy just playing the devil’s advocate. You seriously cannot dismiss this story.

  • Jack

    Eddie, that’s not so unusual. There are other atheists posting here, too.

  • Jack

    Larry, I saw the clip, and while I would like to see the full context, so I can know precisely what’s going on in all of its aspects, the words the doctor spoke and how she spoke them are impossible to explain away under any conceivable context. You really have to be a moral dwarf or an ethical leper to be able to zip past that harsh reality.

    In other words, she said what she said and it is ghastly no matter what the context is. When a Planned Parenthood doctor talks in between mouthfuls of food about cutting in such a way that livers and kidneys can be preserved, and she’s talking to someone posing as a rep from a company that is supposed to make money on body parts from aborted fetuses, it’s safe to say she’s not talking about some Gothic horror novel she read.

    But in LarryWorld, reality is not objective, but quite malleable and flexible. You say whatever you want and if you get enough people to agree, it becomes the new reality.

  • Larry

    “Larry, that’s silly. It’s the same baby, seconds before as seconds after. And even after birth, it doesn’t stop being dependent on the mother.”

    What is silly is how you ignored my point to repeat the same nonsense in full ignorance of notions of “viability” mentioned earlier (which you did not read or respond to). Do you have any marshmallows to roast over those strawmen?

    If it can’t live outside the womb, it can’t be considered on the same level as a born child. Only a fool or a liar could dispute such a clear fact.

  • Larry

    The agenda like everything done by Live Action being to defame Planned Parenthood through phony hoax videos. Like they have done at least 3 times before.

  • Jack

    No Larry, unless you’re a conspiracy kook and believe the words were literally dubbed in and hence not uttered by the doctor, there is enough in that one video clip alone that would chill anyone with a heart to feel and a brain to comprehend.

    If someone tapes a person in between mouthfuls of food talking like a robot about cutting up bodies and cutting out kidneys and livers, and if the person is a doctor connected with Planned Parenthood who thinks she’s talking to a rep from a company that makes money on fetal body parts, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand the conversation….or at least the fact that the person posing as a rep is having a conversation with a desensitized ghoul of a person.

  • Jack

    No, DougSlug, I’m trying to get to the meaning of your seemingly empty turns of phrase.

  • Jack

    Larry, the viability argument is first of all irrelevant to the question of what’s the difference between a baby one second before birth and one second or more after birth….Viability refers to points far sooner than that.

    But second, the viability argument itself is senseless. It works if you’re a Visigoth from the Dark Ages who thinks it perfectly normal and unexceptional for the strong to exploit the weak and that it’s far too much to ask that the strong protect the weak. “You’re dependent on me, so I have the right to kill you at will.”

    I would utter such words if I was dressed in animal skins, wielding a spiked club, and auditioning for one of those old Capitol One ads from a couple of years ago….but that’s about it.

  • Jack

    That’s hardly off-topic, Shawnie. It’s on topic, and it speaks volumes.

  • Jack

    Of course Rice is a fine school…..I was just poking fun about competing alma maters.

  • Jack

    There seems to be an inverse relationship between how often libs like Larry deploy words like “rational,” “critical thinking,” “tolerance,” etc., and how often they model them in their encounters with other people.

  • Jack

    In a stark and grisly way, they prove the truth of the major teachings of the Bible….and Paul’s depiction of fallen humanity in the opening chapter of his letter to the Romans.

    One thing’s for sure: When the left embraced abortion as an absolute right, any time, anywhere, and for any reason, it lost the moral high ground forever. Since then, it can only attract people by attacking its opponents, appealing to people’s baser instincts, and chuckling cynically at other people’s moral earnestness. It can only survive today by stringing together coalitions of people who basically hate each other, but hate people outside the left even more.

    And once the left embraced the viability argument on abortion, it dug a deeper hole for itself, making a mockery of its pretensions of believing that the strong have a duty to protect the weak.

  • Larry

    Jack, the only conspiracy theory kook is you. Someone who is deliberately ignoring what EVERY mainstream media outlet which has seen the video in both edited and full form is portraying.

    “If someone tapes a person in between mouthfuls of food talking like a robot about cutting up bodies and cutting out kidneys and livers”

    Except the person wasn’t saying that AS REPORTED FROM NUMEROUS SOURCES ALREADY. So you are just trying to keep a hysteria going after its already run its course.

    I can’t help it if the facts are getting in the way of your feigned indignation.

  • Larry

    “Viability refers to points far sooner than that. ”

    OK then you are just a liar.

    You want to create your own definitions and ignore basic facts. “Viability” issues are important from conception to around 7 months into a pregnancy before the fetus can possibly become a born child. During that period it is not even close to your strawman argument.

    If nobody else can take custody of it (as is the case for a non-viable fetus), the mother is the only person whose decision matters here.

    The rest of your post was just poo flinging as usual. You have run out of ideas and are left with ad hominem.

  • Jack

    Larry, you’ve reduced yourself to babbling incoherence on the issue of late-term abortions. At that point, what’s being aborted is literally, visually, and scientifically a fully-formed baby, plain and simple. To assert any distinction between it and a newborn is an attempted climb up Mt. Everest without equipment or a dive off a 100-story building……

    It is flatly deranged.

    And your bobs and weaves about viability should be making yourself as dizzy as your readers. Totally incoherent no matter which way you look at it.

  • Jack

    That’s nonsense, Pan. Doctors have to be able to maintain some detachment when doing their job but when it comes to personality, they come in all sizes and shapes. Some fit your stereotype, but plenty are quite emotional.

  • Jack

    No Larry, your views on viability are antiquated — stuck in the 1970s and 1980s. It’s as though you slept through the past three decades.

    But far more important, the viability argument is itself worthless — logically flawed and morally repugnant. Even when viability is reached, the baby remains helpless. A viable baby doesn’t suddenly attain the ability to take care of itself and ensure its continued existence. Ditto for a newborn. Act on contrary premises as a parent and child protective services will be knocking at your door. That is the practical and ethical fact that guts the whole barbaric and ignoble standard.

  • Jack

    Larry, I’m not the one alleging a conspiracy. You are.

    At the very least, you’re forced to explain away absolutely ghoulish words and sentiments and come up with some context that will somehow make it morally sane and sensible.

    You can’t. It’s impossible. There is no conceivable context that rescues those words we heard.

    And so your only hope is to do the equivalent of denying we landed on the moon, or that 19 Muslim terrorists did 9/11 or that the Holocaust really did happen. The very logic of your position forces you into tin-foil-hatted conspiracy land.

  • Jack

    No Larry. We’re just not keen on embracing the kind of tin-foil-hatted conspiracy theories you’re going to need to explain away the words of that doctor.

    So, since you’re going to need all the help in the world to do it, let me offer some suggested “explanations”:

    (1) The doctor wasn’t really there….it was a hologrammatic image of her…..she was vacationing in Taihiti.

    (2) The doctor was there, but someone dubbed in their own words to replace hers. The angelic lass certainly wasn’t droning on about killing babies in a way that would salvage kidneys and livers….Of course not. She really was talking about volunteering to work in a leper colony and giving away all her money to the poor.

    (3) The doctor was there, but was kidnapped by those ee-vile pro-lifers who threatened to wipe out her family if she didn’t read the words she uttered from their script.

    (4) The doctor was there but she was drugged….and forced to read from that script.

    Which one is…

  • Jack

    Explain the “hoax,” Larry.

    Was the doctor drugged by those rascally pro-lifers and forced to utter what she said?

    Did some rascally pro-life female get plastic surgery so she could pose as that doctor and say what she said — and did some other pro-life meanies kidnap the real doctor and bribe her family to shut up about it?

    Come on, Larry, you have a fertile imagination and a sneering contempt for objective reality……Let’s hear some whopper of a conspiracy theory from you, so you can explain the inexplicable.

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  • Larry

    You want to ignore what has already been widely reported, so be it. Your mock outrage is duly noted. You have tendency to go off without bothering to inform yourself on a given subject. What else is new.

  • “Even when viability is reached, the baby remains helpless.”

    So now you are trying to pretend a newborn, who can be cared for by other human beings besides its mother is the same as a gestating fetus, whose existence is entirely at a mother’s will. Good luck with that.

    When you can take custody of a fetus, get back to me.

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  • Jack

    Larry, that’s known as a distinction without a difference. The viability argument, concocted out of desperation, attempts to avoid the obvious: The argument for abortion before viability is of the same kind as an argument for infanticide. One being is dependent on the other; ergo, it’s deemed okay for that being to abandon or destroy it.

    And that’s the heart of the abortion issue. Nobody has succeeded in explaining rationally why, if infanticide is wrong, abortion isn’t. All the desperate attempts to draw lines that separate the two end up being arbitrary and illogical. And the viability argument, once you examine it, is not just irrational but morally abhorrent. It is based on the barbarian notion that the strong have no duty to protect or assist the weak. It’s a seemingly strange position for far leftists to take, given all their chest-pounding rhetoric about the strong having such a duty. But it reveals to the world who and what they are.

  • Jack

    Larry, that’s no answer at all. It’s just a diversionary tactic. Nobody is denying the following about the video:

    (1) The woman on the video was the Planned Parenthood doctor.

    (2) The topic was extracting fetal body parts.

    (3) The context was abortion, specifically the doctor explaining bloodlessly how she crushes the bodies in such a way that kidneys, livers, and other valuable organs can be salvaged.

    (4) She mentioned the bodies in the context of abortions as early as 17 weeks, putting the lie to the nonsense that fetuses are just clumps of cells until much farther along in pregnancies.

    The only way to refute any of this is to put on a tin-foil hat and weave deranged conspiracy theories…..ie it was an illusion, the words were dubbed, someone posing as the doctor was speaking, etc.

    Of course nobody does this because it would be absurd. So what do you do? The next best thing — you dodge and you divert.

    But it isn’t working….

  • Jack

    Nobody is denying the following about the video:

    (1) The woman on the video was the Planned Parenthood doctor.

    (2) The topic was extracting fetal body parts.

    (3) The context was abortion, specifically the doctor explaining bloodlessly how she crushes the bodies in such a way that kidneys, livers, and other valuable organs can be salvaged.

    (4) She mentioned the bodies in the context of abortions as early as 17 weeks, putting the lie to the nonsense that fetuses are just clumps of cells until much farther along in pregnancies.

    The only way to refute any of this is to put on a tin-foil hat and weave deranged conspiracy theories…..ie it was an illusion, the words were dubbed, someone posing as the doctor was speaking, etc.

    Of course nobody does this because it would be absurd. So what do PP apologists do? The next best thing — dodge and divert.

    But it isn’t working….

  • Jack

    Larry is not duped.

    He is, however, attempting to dupe others by deploying deliberately misleading language in characterizing the video.

    But it won’t work once people watch the video and listen to the utterances of the doctor.

    The words and attitude are so utterly calloused and heartless, the head of Planned Parenthood was forced to go public and condemn them on that same video.

    Unlike Larry, the PP head at least had enough sense to realize that this was an absolute public relations disaster for her organization.

  • Jack

    Sorry….meant to say “regarding that same video.” The PP head obviously was not literally “on” that video.

  • Larry

    “Larry, that’s known as a distinction without a difference. ”

    Only to someone who willfully ignores basics of mammalian biology.

    Born person = human beings other than the mother can act on that person’s behalf to keep it alive

    Fetus which is not viable outside the womb= only the mother is capable of keeping it alive.

    This is why an abortion can be legal as the personal decision of the mother but infanticide is still illegal.

    That is a distinction with a difference. Your willful lack of understanding that difference is why anti-abortion arguments have never gained traction in making abortion illegal.

    As I said, until you can physically take custody of a fetus from its mother, you are SOL. Nobody needs to discuss “when life begins” or “fetal pain”. Inside the mother and can’t get out is all you need to know here.

  • Larry

    Because you are more interested in mock outrage than the facts. No sense in continuing such a conversation.

    “(2) The topic was extracting fetal body parts.”

    Wrong. The full video made no such reference.

    “(3) The context was abortion, specifically the doctor explaining bloodlessly how she crushes the bodies in such a way that kidneys, livers, and other valuable organs can be salvaged.”

    Wrong on that as well. The full video made no such reference.

    (4) She mentioned the bodies in the context of abortions as early as 17 weeks, putting the lie to the nonsense that fetuses are just clumps of cells until much farther along in pregnancies.

    Purely your guess based on the erroneous assumptions of 2 & 3.

    More on the hoax:

    http://www.salon.com/2015/07/16/what_the_planned_parenthood_hoax_really_proves_right_wing_extremists_have_no_qualms_about_destroying_peoples_lives/

    https://badgop.com/index.php/2015/07/16/planned-parenthood-video-a-hoax-right-doesnt-care/

  • Jack

    Larry, now you’ve truly taken leave of reality. Nobody watching the video can deny that she was talking about abortions and fetal tissue. You know that as well as anyone does, and if you don’t, you definitely have a few screws loose.

    Your latest response is about as loony as your previous denial elsewhere on this web site that the deity is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.

    You have the right to your own opinions but not to make up your own reality. Yes, of course there are honest questions about the video, especially regarding the question of sale of fetal tissue, but not on what you’re disputing.

    If you really believe what you’re saying, you need major psychiatric help because you can’t tell the difference between your own wishes and objective reality.

  • Jack

    I just looked at your lame links, Larry, and neither of them disputed a single thing in my post to which you responded.

    That means you didn’t read the links you posted, you’re lying, or you’re delusional.

  • Shawnie5

    Lame is being kind…imagine citing Salon or “badgop” and expecting it to be taken seriously…

  • Jack

    Larry, it’s you who are playing games with the facts, because your denials about the video go far beyond questions about sale or no sale of fetal tissue. In post after post, you have denied that the doctor is even talking about abortion or fetal tissue or how she extracts livers and other organs from babies she is “crushing” (her word) when she is performing abortions.

    Even Planned Parenthood’s head felt compelled to go public with a condemnation of the doctor’s matter-of-fact, even jovial depictions of her operations and extractions.

    But not you…..of course not. You deny the very words the doctor spoke which the PP head was condemning.

  • Jack

    No, Larry, the horror of the video stands apart from the question of whether or not it shows PP selling body parts.

    The horror consists of the fact that, sale or no sale, the video clearly shows Nucatola, the PP doctor, coldly and jovially describing heads and limbs of bodies she is “crushing” (her word) and how she crushes them in a way that salvages valuable organs like livers.

    Unlike PP, you are denying not just the allegation of sale of body parts, but the very fact that the doctor was talking about abortions and body parts in the first place.

    So either you have the integrity of a rattlesnake or you have a tenuous hold on objective reality.

  • Jack

    No Larry, it’s your credibility that’s non-existent, because in post after post, you have denied the very discussion and vivid description of performing abortions and salvaging body parts that is plainly on the video — apart from the question of whether their sale was or wasn’t discussed.

    So you have made your own integrity or sanity the issue….

  • Jack

    It still is a distinction without any difference. It takes us not a step closer on the issue of abortion. We’re discussing the morality of abortion and specifically the question of when it’s okay to destroy another’s life. The viability solution is no solution, unless we accept the premise that dependence on another being gives that other being the right to terminate that dependence if termination means certain death.

    But to accept that premise is to devolve back to pagan barbarism, where might makes right and there is no right to live for one who is completely dependent on another.

    For all the chatter on the left about evolution, it seems you folks don’t apply evolution to morality, given your willingness to turn the clock back 20 centuries when it comes to ethical duties and conduct.

  • Shawnie5

    “Your latest response is about as loony as your previous denial elsewhere on this web site that the deity is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.”

    Hey, I think you’ve solved the mystery, Jack! David Barton fabricated the video just like he fabricated the “endowed by their Creator” language and caused it to magically appear in the Declaration of Independence! I mean, if he can do the latter, the former ought to be a cinch — after all, Barton is alive as of the release of the PP video…

  • Karen,

    “It stops a beating heart..”

    NO IT DOESN’T!

    THERE IS NO HEART TO STOP
    THE HEART DOES NOT BEGIN TO FORM UNTIL THE 6TH WEEK!
    AND EVEN THEN, IT IS NOT BEATING YET!

    90% ABORTIONS HAPPEN IN THE FIRST MONTH
    BEFORE A HEART IS EVEN FORMED!

    This foolishness about killing a baby is disgusting. It isn’t a baby!
    You religious people have completely closed your minds to knowledge and don’t care about facts.

  • odgie

    “The ignorance on this issue is despicable.”

    At last, Atheist Max shows some self-awareness.