gay views
In the wake of historic victories for gay-rights supporters in last month's elections, a pair of USA TODAY/Gallup Polls find growing acceptance among Americans toward gay men and lesbians _ and soaring optimism among gay Americans that issues involving homosexuality will one day no longer divide the nation. **Note: this image is not available to download. Credit: RNS photo courtesy

Fewer Americans view homosexuality as a sin

Image(RNS) Americans' acceptance of gays and lesbians is continuing to grow, with a new poll showing that just over a third of Americans view homosexuality as a sin, down from 44 percent a year earlier.

gay views

In the wake of historic victories for gay-rights supporters in last month's elections, a pair of USA TODAY/Gallup Polls find growing acceptance among Americans toward gay men and lesbians _ and soaring optimism among gay Americans that issues involving homosexuality will one day no longer divide the nation. **Note: this image is not available to download. Credit: RNS photo courtesy

The finding from LifeWay Research, which was founded by the Southern Baptist Convention, was released just as the pastor who was to give the inaugural benediction for President Obama withdrew from the program over an anti-gay sermon he gave 20 years ago.

The Rev. Louie Giglio bowed out on Thursday (Jan. 10) after a liberal group discovered a sermon he preached in the 1990s in which he denounced the gay rights movement and advocated efforts to turn gays straight. In withdrawing, Giglio did not renounce the remarks but said that battling gay rights was no longer a priority for him.

“The culture is clearly shifting on homosexuality and this creates a whole new issue: How will America deal with a minority view, strongly held by evangelicals, Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, and so many others?” said Ed Stetzer, president of LifeWay Research.

Stetzer said that Obama's own shift in embracing same-sex marriage and other gay rights in the past year may have played a role in the change in public opinion.

“The president’s evolution on homosexuality probably impacted the evolution of cultural values -- there is a real and substantive shift, surprisingly large for a one-year time frame -- though this was hardly a normal year on this issue,” Stetzer said.

Gay rights groups criticized Obama for inviting evangelical megachurch Pastor Rick Warren, an outspoken opponent of gay marriage, to deliver a benediction at his first inauguration, in 2009. But neither Warren nor the White House backed down.

LifeWay's survey in November found 37 percent said they believe homosexual behavior is a sin, down from 44 percent in September 2011.

The percentage of Americans who do not believe homosexuality is a sin remained nearly the same, at 43 percent in September 2011 and 45 percent in November 2012. There was an increase in the percentage of those who said they were unsure of what they believe.

Not surprisingly, the new LifeWay survey found that those who identify as “born-again, evangelical, or fundamentalist Christian” are the most likely to say that homosexual behavior is a sin (73 percent). Conversely,  those who never attend religious services are the most likely to say they do not believe homosexual behavior is a sin (71 percent).

The survey of nearly 1,200 adults has a margin of error of plus or minus 2.9 percent.



  1. To be honest, I no longer care if people think my being gay is a sin, or if they think it is okay as long as I do not have relations with my partner. I pay taxes and I will be having my full civil rights in this country whether bigots like it or not. It is just a matter of when.

    There was a point when majority opinion decided it wasn’t okay for slaves to be emancipated, for blacks and whites to inter-marry, for women to be allowed to vote, and so on….In the future, attitudes towards gay people will be looked at in the same way.

    If anybody thinks that any religious book, or any ‘spiritual book’, at any rate, is focused on singling out gay people to revile, they are just fulfilling their own bigoted agenda. The Bible, for example, emphasized love. Jesus is not quoted as saying that 2 members of the same sex should not be able to love each other. The Old Testament advocated death to children who cursed their mother or father, or who disobeyed Sabbath law.

    Many who claim to be Christian. including many gay people, think gay marriage is okay. Why is our freedom of religion being trampled upon? If you do not believe in same-sex marriage, do not marry a gay person. No place of worship is ever obligated to perform a ceremony that their religion is against. Inter-religious marriage is a perfect example of this.

    To those who believe that God is the creator, ask yourself this….why is homosexuality a naturally-occurring event found in more than 450 species. And why is homophobia found in only 1? The same species, as it happens, that wages war, and has tortured and killed millions over the centuries, all in the alleged name of their God.

    Bigotry is not of God. It has a unique evil, all its own.

  2. The “church” doesn’t talk about the sin except for those bad things those who are not attending worship do. We have abandoned the Biblical teaching of sin.
    Premarital sex, oppression of the poor, ignoring the sick and in prison, gossip, & are all fine with the church today. What church would proclaim that it’s members should make amends, personally apologize, to those who have been hurt. Homosexuality is being considered in the same way as the rest. A church that does not object to promiscuous ministers, members, cannot legitimately complain about homosexual ones.

  3. Although some people may not describe homosexuality as a sin, many will still consider homosexuality to be deviant behavior. People can consider homosexuality to be filthy and yet, because they are not religiously affiliated, they will not use the word “sin” to describe it. That is why this poll is very mileading because it asks people whether they consider homosexuality to be a sin. The results probably would have been very different if the poll asked whether homosexuality is abnormal.

  4. This poll is not as a surprise considering the great apostasy from faith and the social engineering that has been happening in the past years. It defies logic though considering the obvious science of biology and physiology that speaks clearly about which genders goes together. Observation and logic alone should give people the clue to the disorder that our culture is afflicted with, even if they don’t believe in the reality of God or sin. Common logic, common sense….unfortunately not so common anymore.

  5. For Generations Man has been trying to whitewash sin – believing that if the Majority approves sin is no longer sin – Sin by any other name it is still sin and bending over backwards to please a community will never be accetable

    God does not make mistakes His Laws never Change

  6. I think that using the “bigot” accusation to silence people on this issue is a unjust deflection and is itself a form of bigotry. I respect you as a person so I do not hurl out names and accusations. I do have a right to speak out without being called a bigot. Let’s use biology, physiology, and medical evidence to argue that sexual activity between people of the same sex is disordered. Observation of our bodies and logic alone speaks the language of truth and you do not need to believe in God to recognize it.
    On the basis of the revelation of God, we live in a fallen world because of Original Sin. Sin is the weakness of human nature that afflicts all since humanity’s first defiance of God’s covenant. The sin of humanity has afflicted all of creation, and the more sin that abounds…the worse the afflictions get. The word of God is the teacher of goodness…intended to keep us safe, and at peace. I would suggest Pope John Paul IIs Theology of the Body to understand in more depth about the necessity of the rediscovery of human identity created in the image of God. Meanwhile, I call you brother and pray for you.

  7. What biology and physiology is that that speaks about normative matters and sin? I’ve read enough of both to know that there is nothing about sinning in either or any scientific discipline. Don’t try to enlist science to justify your religion-based bigotry.

  8. Lets forget the “sin” part of it for a moment and discuss the physical aspects of male homosexual sex only. With out going into explicit detail male homosexual sex is dangerous sex, unsafe sex, unhealthy sex, a degrading and disgusting act where the anal orifice is integrally utilized making it deviant sex. Does it make sense to do this ? Of course not but amazingly this part of being gay is swept under the rug. No one talks about it because it is disgusting. Its like it doesn’t even exist but its there. The white elephant in the room. This is what our president says is OK. If you endorse gay marriage you also endorse unnatural deviant sex. But no one says that. Not even opponents of gay marriage. They are too scared to stand up and call a spade a spade.

  9. People who practice homosexuality, tend to compare themselves to animals, as Lelio, does, wanting to be like any of the other species, as long as it isn’t human.
    Unfortunately, when animals, two male dogs for example, appear to be engaging in what Lelio hopes to be homosexual foreplay, one dogs is merely showing instinctual dominance over the other. It has nothing to do with lust.
    Homosexual behavior is a sin. It is an abnormal addiction. It damages the people involved in it, spiritually and physically. The term “gay” never describes the rage-filled, self-loathing, broken, desperate and sick lives of it’s adherents.
    The Gay Agenda is not about equal rights. They have those already. What they actually seek is approval and absolution…they seek to heal the deep wounds, whether from some form of abuse of childhood (they always claim sexual abuse was consenual- child cannot consent), or other traumas. In the case of men, who feel same sex attraction and are acting on it, they seek their own masculinity, denied to them when they were “used” like a woman, as a teen. So they see other men, crave and look up to masculinity, but mistake it for lust, in the wash of hormones during those years…and society and sick media translates that into being GAY, for the teen.
    Adult gays are notorious for seeking out children/teens to prime them for sex. It is because the men also crave their lost innocence and their own childhood stolen from them. Ask any active homosexual and they will admit their “desire for children”, claim they wouldn’t actually do it for fear of prosecution …but say “the
    laws for consent need to lower” they will tell you.
    Yes, we all see Lesbian, Gay, Bi-sexual, Transgendered, and now Bestiality, Incest, and finally Pan-sexual (sex with anyone babies too or anything-no boundaries) ALL being touted as normal. And the people in any of categories have a REALLY hard time pointing fingers at anyone in the other slots. Why? Because sin scatters right judgment and decency and they are ruled by the cry,”Non servium” and can’t see through the blinders of their own disoreder lust to even think about attempting to deny another’s disordered lust as inappropriate.
    This is why the psychologically intact need to stem the flow of evil and stand up to these sick people! We can love these people without approving of their disorders. Just as one doesn’t allow a baby to touch fire, even though they want to and will have a temper tantrum, one doesn’t allow these people to “fundamentally change” our society nor insert their illness into our families as ok.

  10. Not sure why they are called, “Gay”. They are the most hate-filled people I’ve ever encountered. Also, we’re not “Homophomes”, we just think your behavior is disgusting.

  11. Until you have walked in my shoes Laurie, you have no idea what it is to be a result of bigotry, so no, we disagree. I think ‘bigot’ is totally acceptable and appropriate. Especially considering one’s religious beliefs are specifically denying me full civil rights as a tax-paying American. As just one example, my partner and I have to pay taxes on our medical coverage for each other that straight couples do not…and we live in a state where same-sex marriage is allowed. Unacceptable.

    I am Christian and know many others who are, that do not believe ‘gay’ is sinful. That is YOUR truth. That is YOUR interpretation of the Bible. Your specific interpretation of the Bible is causing inequality for my family and our own religious belief system. Please don’t quote back with verses taken out of context. I know what is written.

    In the past, others have been just as reassured in THEIR truth when justifying slavery, and the oppression of women. I think when people use the Bible as a tool to judge and condemn others, along with rejecting the admonition to love, to not judge, and to aid the poor and oppressed, then I question whether that truth comes from their own ego, or from a spiritual source. After all, ‘ye shall know them by their fruit.’ How many members of the religious right favor policies that aid the poor over the wealthy? Or advocate against guns? And then these same people judge me? These people are modern day Pharisees. All the trappings of religion, and nothing resembling Godliness.

    If you want to pray for me, that’s great. I will also pray for God to open your eyes and heart as well.

  12. Hey Laurie, considering that homosexuality is found in over 450 species and homophobia in only 1, I reject your theory.

    Since we are all created by God, and it is not a ‘choice’ to become gay (just as it is never a choice to become straight…it just is), common logic would dictate that we are to be respected, just like everyone else. After all, homosexual animals in other species are not ostracized. That is uniquely human.

    Not everybody who is born was meant to reproduce. Maybe the God you are praying to had overpopulation of the species in mind. And why do so many species of animals have same-sex attraction occurring naturally? Did not your God create them, as well?

    For the record, Sodom and Gomorrah was about violent sexual abuse of others, not about a loving committed relationship between 2 members of the same sex.

    I know you are trying to ‘witness.’ Sometimes it takes a little research and thought beforehand.

  13. So when the Bible was used to justify slavery, was it correct? When it was used to slaughter innocents to convert to the faith was it the truth then? Since His laws never change should those who violate Sabbath law and children who curse at their parents be put to death. I mean, you said His Laws never change.

    By the way, have you done work for the poor in your life? Ever? What’s your policy on guns? On war? Or taxing the wealthy? Or universal health care? Or the removal of social services that aid the poor? I am just curious since you are so quick to judge the spirituality of others.

  14. Most normal people do not hate gays, we do know that their lives are disordered due to their choice of sexuality. It is simply wrong. And what amazes me is the narrow-mindedness of gays as they demand that everybody say that their sex lives are just fine, which they are not.They can call their friendships marrige but that will never be in God’s eyes.

  15. I’m afraid that “gays” are for the most part hateful and narrowminded. They tend to be so angry. And, if I were
    “gay,” I would get help for it and ask God to help me.He would
    answer because He loves all of us. The bigots are the homosexuals. And the reason only humans have a problem with homosexuality is that humans can think, something animals in general cannot.

  16. You said homosexuality is a natural occurrence, well so is incest in different species, so is cannabalism, does that mean natural is normal and good for human beings because of what different species do? Homosexuality is not a designed divine union….The beginning if time in the Book of Genesis GOD designed. male and female for a purpose when he said: For a Man shall leave his Mother and Father and cleave to his wife and the two shall be one flesh…Jesus repeated those words in Matthew 19. If someone chooses for there own free will to engage in this kind of relationship that is between you and GOD, however they have no right to re-define what marriage is and enact laws trying to force other’s to accept this type of lifestyle.

  17. Do you believe the Holy Bible? If you are. Christian then you have a moral obligation to preach the Word of GOD found in scriptures rather than preach the word of political correctness for a corrupt society. That is not leading people to Christ…Of course GOD can forgive homosexuals if they are engaging in these type of relations, but they have to want to be forgiven, they have to want what GOD wants more for themselves then what they want… it is not easy and Jesus said it was not an easy road to follow him, but if we did, he would never leave us nor forsake us and would be there when we fell to sin to forgive us, as we continue our journey in following him….We are all sinners, the purpose of the cross is that we can be forgiven for our sin, through heartfelt repent enhance..Jesus knows the flesh is weak, but his spirit is stronger than our flesh. GOD does not change, he will never condone homosexual relations that is why the Bible spells it out plainly..Homosexuals will not inherit the Kingdom of GOD.

  18. ou are either very stupid or deliberately ignoring the Truth – God’s Laws NEVER change = But Man has for generations warped and used them for evil purposes – Don’t blame God for Man’s behaviour – Homosexual behaviour is wrong – indeed All sexual behaviour outside marriage is a sin and just in case you again warp the issue ALL sexual behaviour this includes heterosexual sexual behaviour outside marriage is wrong

    Now what are my views on working with the poor – I spent 40 years working in Africa Middle East and Latin America the Laws of God are same for all men – As for Guns – All Life is Sacred and the killing of the Unborn is Murder – And make it quite clear – if refuse to get involved remain passive on the issue support the issue or are active in Abortion then you are guilty of Murder of the innocent

    Again and read it slowly so that you understand it – God’s Laws cannot be changed – The ten commandments stand no question – Man will always try and warp and use the issue but sin is sin you may not choose to obey them Gay or other wise the Laws of God are for ALL

  19. Lelio Resen, it is the homosexual acts to which the majority of people are opposed, not those with the orientation, so we do not want to encourage acts in any way. God forbids sodomy because it destroys the body and, also, every child is entitled to have both a mother and a father if at all possible. The homosexual acts, just as forbidden heterosexual acts do, cause many bodily diseases and injuries, including anal cancer which is rare among heterosexuals. God did not give us sexual taboos in the Bible because sex is awful and sinful in the proper context, and he does not want us to have enjoyment.. He gave us those restrictions to keep us healthy both spiritual and bodily. Whenever we break those subtitles to the Ten Commandments, such as fornication, incest, sodomy and bestiality, we suffer the consequences and so does society. Peace.

  20. A correction: the second line to my post should read “the acts”.

  21. You are absolutely right, Harrison 2253, and anyone who encourages such things is in reality contributing to the death of those who engage in such behavior. and get diseases or bodily injuries, including this president. Sodomy, whether of the heterosexual or homosexual, variety, is just one person abusing another. One thing that is never mentioned is that many homosexuals divide themselves into the females and males with one man abusing the other one more, so that one person is more likely to get a torn rectum, etc. than the other. Simply stated that is an abuse of the weaker by the stronger. A thing that most people condemn in other circumstances. Also, if we are warned by health care providers to wash our hands after using toilet facilities because of our exposure to feces, why on earth would anyone want to engage in a type of sexual behavior that gets feces over a good portion of their body and surroundings. Those are the facts that people do not want to mention, but mentioning them we must.

  22. Sorry for the typos in my last post, but I think everyone got my message anyway, and that is what is most important.

  23. Clearly, you know nothing about the Bible, Lelio, or YOU would not be taking things from it out of context. Homosexuality is a disorder. It is a sin and you, a christian, should know that. But when you say the truth of others is just their own and no one else’s, you are basically saying that there is no such thing as absolute truth because what’s true for someone else may not be true for you. But what you don’t realize is that that statement, in itself, is being made absolutely. In other words, it applies some rule or standard to everyone across the board – exactly what a relativist like you sound to be, say is impossible. So basically, you have undone your own argument simply by stating your case.

    Just because many might favor something doesn’t make it right. But it seems you’ve never heard of that.

    You say you are angry because you have no civil rights, but really listen to yourself: you want civil rights. You are following the way of the WORLD, and that’s wrong. You need to be following the way of GOD. The real reason you are angry is because you dislike God’s law against homosexuality. What the Bible says about it is set in stone. You cannot change that. I’m sorry you feel the way you do, but you cannot undo what God has set in stone. You can change laws and lobby for homosexual marriages, etc., but that’s not going to change God’s law, which is what I would be more concerned about if I were you. Love can be a dangerous thing too. That’s why it is said to be bliss, blind and ignorant. Just because something feels good does not always make it right. In other words, just because homosexuals love another person of the same sex doesn’t make their union valid, especially in the eyes of God. And since you know your Bible like you say you do, remember this: Adam and Eve thought the forbidden fruit tasted good, but guess what, it was wrong to eat it and look what happened to them.

    And lastly, if you have to call other peoples’ wrongdoings the “trappings of religion”, then you just given yourself away that you are not really a christian. You sound anti-religious if anything.

    But I will pray for you because it is not a sin to be a homosexual; it’s only a sin when you act out on your uncontrollable desires. Hey, I have to remain chaste until I marry. Why? Because it’s God’s law and because He knows I’ll suffer issues like stds, emotional imbalance, probably develop a taste of “hooking up with the next guy” because I like the feel of it, and so on. You hear about it all the time. Why do you think many female celebs are messed up and men as well? Hate the sin, not the sinner.

  24. You have a moral obligation not to judge and persecute others in the name of Christ. I am nauseated by some of the commenters here. Have fun with your self-righteous selves. Nothing remotely holy about this site and its posters. I will et you play amongst yourselves.

  25. Don’t infringe upon my civil rights and I could care less what you do, or how you feel. When you mess with my rights you have a fight on your hands. End of discussion.

  26. I could care less that anyone perceives gayness as sin, or immoral. Most do not feel that way and the days of our being discriminated against and not defending ourselves is done. Over.

  27. Judgementalism is sin. Bigotry is sin. I am done here. The self-righteousness boggles the mind on this fory\um.

  28. How can anyone believe that two men with beards taking turns ejaculating into each others’ smelly anus is normal?

    These people are sick in the head.

  29. Lelio, tell that to the young woman who was raised by her practicing homosexual father and who had to wash his sheets, and who wrote about it in her autobiography. I forget her name, but I am sure everyone can find it on line if they just look for it. Now that WAS disgusting. He got custody of her because the mother was a Lesbian and evidently a worse mother than he was a father, which is saying a lot of what really goes on in these so called “families”.

  30. The Blessed Mother is appearing all over the world saying that God is going to send a worldwide chastisement because mankind has gone so far from God and are endorsing all kinds of evil. She said back in the 80’s that natural and manmade disasters would increase that would lead up to a worldwide warning where every person will see themselves as God sees them (Revelation sixth seal) and called “the warning” by visionaries. Then a supernatural sign would be left in all the places she is appearing that will not be able to be touched, but would be able to be televised and would last until the end of time. Then if mankind still does not change a worldwide chastisement of fire which would destroy a great part of humanity. Then an era of peace would be granted to the world where satan would be chained until the end of the world when he will be let lose and THE Anti-christ comes. She has said that abortion and all means of preventing life, homosexuality are grave sins. See Akita Japan, Betania Venezuela and Medjugorje Yugoslavia. Akita and Betania have already been approved by the Catholic Church as worthy of belief. Statues cry human tears, oil and blood. All kinds of solar miracles are taking place. Check out the website of extinction protocol and see for yourself how scientists are concerned because the amount of earthquakes are increasing at an alarming rate. Manmade disasters such as shootings of all kinds are taking place and there are many other kinds besides these.

    The gay person is to be pitied and loved, but to condone the lifestyle which is not lifegiving is wrong. I believe we are close to the times prophesied. I hope mankind repents, for God wants all to be saved. Otherwise things are going to be quite horrible before it is all over.

  31. Leilo, you cannot have a discussion without being abusive. When a person becomes abusive in an arguement, it is because he has lost the arguement.

  32. Lelio—Put yourself at the Pearly Gates and you won’t have much to say except I’m sorry God.

  33. Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope) once said “truth is not determined by a majority vote”. Never was and never will be just as in Jesus days.

  34. No, Lelio, as for me I am not repressed, and I doubt Harrison 2253 is either. I have been married to the same man for over fifty years, have never had an STD, have two lovely adult children and wanted more but it just did not happen — probably because I have a rare blood type — and have six beautiful grandchildren with married mothers and fathers. I know that seems very “quaint” to many people now, but it does have its rewards.

  35. Wow, Mairin, what a great post. So many great points. I agree, the homosexual issue is not about civil rights. They would like to change the issue away from society’s disapproval for sexual perversion and make it about their “right” to do what is destructive to themselves and others. It is about wanting license. Even though the view in this country that slavery was wrong and immoral, slavery is an economic system that is very old, and truly is not at all on the same level as what homosexuals are looking for. But they are deceivers, and not honest with themselves. How could they be honest with others?

  36. According to a former homosexual, homosexuality is ‘seeking a legitimate need illegitimately.’ His father used to call him a girl and mock him. He said thru homosexual acts later in life he was trying to fix that early, broken bond.

    I don’t hate you, sir.

  37. David, I guess you have said it all. No need for any of us to say more.

  38. I really like your blog.. very nice colors & theme. Did you design this website yourself
    or did you hire someone to do it for you? Plz answer back as I’m looking to construct my own blog and would like to find out where u got this from. many thanks

  39. I have to agree with Bonnie…that was excellent Mairin….

  40. perfectly stated David. sin is sin and this isn’t pretty.

  41. The Roman Catholic Doctrine–
    Sins Crying to Heaven for vengeance
    *Wilful murder;
    *Oppression of the poor;
    *The sin of Sodom (Gen. 18:20)
    *Defrauding laborers of their wages.

    Nine Ways of Being Accessory to Another’s Sin–
    1. By counsel;
    2. By provocation;
    3. By participating in the sin;
    4. By command;
    5. By praise or flattery;
    6. By consent;
    7. By silence;
    8. By concealment;
    9. By defense of the ill done.

  42. “To those who believe that God is the creator, ask yourself this….why is homosexuality a naturally-occurring event found in more than 450 species. And why is homophobia found in only 1?”

    Weak argument my friend. We are intelligent creatures who can make decisions. We do not run on “instinct”.

    Theres cannibalism in 450+ species as well, but as a collective society we have determined that do be DEVIANT behavior among mankind. Just because an animal does it, doesnt mean humans should. Otherwise you lower God’s intelligent creation to nothing more than beasts.

  43. No. Frankly that is a really stupid argument. You criticize people for their beliefs. The stories and fairy tales they make up in their head. Criticizing somebody for the stupid ideas they refuse to acknowledged is NOT the same as criticizing somebody for their biology and for how they are born.

    Bigotry is judging people based on intrinsic characteristics. Your religion is not intrinsic it is a learned trait.

  44. Who cares what your stupid beliefs say. I don’t have to respect your beliefs or opinions. People’s opinions can be wrong.

    Gay people are born that way. Gay people having a relationship with an adult does not harm anybody.

    How can you base your argument in “nature” when the “Bible” is a human construct?

    Your comments are absurd. Your beliefs are absurd.

  45. You mean fanatics are brainwashing themselves and creating superstition.

    This cult like behavior is dangerous. Please stop promoting dangerous beliefs.

  46. NO. For years idiots have been using recycled cultic ideas to slow down the progress of humanity.

    God does not make mistakes His Laws never Change”

    Except all those times he added to the bible, changed the law, and things magically worked out for an elite group of control freaks.

  47. The reason Tara bases her agrument in nature is because homosexuals base their argument on that! She’s arguing from a point of view of nature ALSO because you refuse to believe what the Bible says about it. So homosexuals compare themselves to animals because they see animals of the same sex engaging in this kind of behavior, but animals don’t have a sense of right and wrong, moral and immoral. As somebody else pointed out, this kind of behavior is done to show dominance over the other. Please don’t compare yourselves to animals. I like to think you’re better than that!

  48. You two are really simplistic in your understanding.

    There are two arguments here: 1) that it is not natural 2) that it is unethical.

    For those of you that haven’t had a class in logic. Lets take this REAL slow.

    To prove something is “natural” one looks at biology. Human physiology is comparable to many animals, and in fact our brains work in very similar ways: just like a chimp or a rat has a heart, a liver, and two lungs, their brains also have similar structures. Rats have been used to understand the human brain. So scientists have shown that the same structures in animals that control sexual behavior also exist in humans and function in the same way.
    For most people this satisfies a proof of “natural” …

    The second argument, “Is this ethical?” is not based on whether it is natural. In fact these two questions are largely irrelevant to one another. Cars are not natural. We drive them. Modern agriculture isn’t natural, we don’t tell people to ethically starve themselves even when production appears to be unethical. Natural has no bearing on ethics. From an ethical standpoint, what two consenting gay adults do has no ethical ramifications. It is actually depriving them of their relationships that can be demonstrated to be unethical.

    So, get the picture?

    Natural is something that is only important within the christian context of theology. When gay people give an argument for homosexuality being natural, that is to supply Christians with evidence that their existence still conforms to Christian explanations of existence (i.e. that gay sexual expression is something that is part of the created order). That simply isn’t an issue for people outside of your dogma.

    Also, when we argue that our lifestyle is ethical, that is something that is NOT specific to your religion. Ethics is something that all communities engage in.

    Go back to grade school.

  49. I don’t hate you. Just your stupid childish beliefs that are holding back the progress of society.

  50. This is nothing more than hate speech.

    Its like a white person from the 1930’s describing black people based on blackface.

  51. St. John says that the AntiChrist already is at work in the world, so anyone who cooperates with him is in one way or another a lesser AntiChrist. The essence of the AntiChrist is deceit. AntiChristianity calls good evil and evil good and inverts the natural order, taking pleasure only in disorder and perversion. “Every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God” (John 4:2-3).

    Trying to see the truth of God is like “looking into a cloudy mirror” (1 Corinthians 13:12), but at least we “seek his face” (Psalm 27:8). The AntiChrist would have us seek our own face. This narcissism is his cunning deceit, and it has infected our culture. Results of the American Freshman Survey, to which more than nine million young people have responded since 1966, show that a growing number of them are “convinced of their own greatness whether or not they have accomplished anything.” Along with a 30 per cent increase in narcissistic attitudes since 1979, there is a decline in study, work habits, and the ability to communicate with others. Not surprisingly: “These young egotists can grow up to be depressed adults.”

    The cult of “self-esteem” foisted on young people in their schools is not a modern invention. The Prince of Lies told the very first man and woman: “You shall be like God” (Genesis 3:5). False pride is the alchemy for creating little AntiChrists. It was out of love that St. John wrote: “But we are children of God, and those who know God listen to us; those who are not of God refuse to listen to us” (1 John 4:6).

  52. Lelio, you have mentioned a couple of times that “same sex attraction” is found in over 450 species. I have no idea whether that is true or not, but for the sake of argument let’s say it is. There is no question humans share an animal nature with the rest of the animal kingdom. But human beings have something animals don’t; a rational mind. Many animals will kill competitors or offspring of a competitor of their own species, yet our law says we shall not kill. Many animals will steal food from other animals, even of their own pack or tribe, yet we have a law that stealing is wrong. With our rational mind we control our animal impulses, say an impulse to kill or steal (or have pleasurable perverse sex) and use our mind to live according to good social order and right reason. When we do act on wrong impulses, we commit a crime. Natural law tells us that man with man or woman with woman sexual encounters are wrong and degrading. But those who will silence their reason and only live according to their animal natures justify these acts that have been considered wrong in every age and in every culture. Justifying homosexual acts by saying animals also do it is like justifying stealing because animals also do it. It says nothing.

  53. Lelio: You said: “I am Christian and know many others who are, that do not believe ‘gay’ is sinful. That is YOUR truth. That is YOUR interpretation of the Bible.” This kind of thinking is known as Moral Relativism and has been denounced as an error in Christian circles for over 100 years. You need to study more about it, and you need to be more honest about the difference between doing what you “feel” is good, and doing what you KNOW is good. You need to form a correct conscience before you can make correct moral choices. You need to conform yourself to what Christianity teaches, whether it suits you or not. Christianity does not have to conform to how you feel.

  54. You are absolutely correct. Two men having anal sex with one another would definitely be considered progress. You are a moron.

  55. The accomplishments of the GLBT are a matter of historical fact. Yes. You are standing in the way of progress.

    You wouldn’t be typing on a computer if it weren’t for the legacy of Alan Turing.

  56. If his laws never change, then why was the Bible written over thousands of years? Sounds like it had frequent updates.

  57. This article and all the ones like it need to more carefully distinguish between the true Christian position and off the cuff remarks that are not thought out nor born out in theology. It is not correct to assume that Christians should think homosexuality a sin and it would be a scandal if that were our true position and I sincerely hope that a third of Americans do not believe homosexuality is a sin as that belief is wrong.

    First and foremost Christianity does not preach that homosexuality is a sin per se. Homosexuality is a condition of various men and women but it is not sinful in itself. Catholic morality does not make any judgement on whether homosexuality is a genetic condition, a condition from birth or a type of learned behavior or a resulting reaction to up bringing.

    Catholic morality says that the homosexual act is a sin insofar as it goes contrary to nature and cuts off the act of love making from possible procreation. It is not a sinful action for two men or women to kiss or hug as long as that act does not become an occasion of sin, i.e., an initial action leading to further developments and ending in an immoral action.

    We need to be very careful in the current atmosphere to carefully distinguish the correct and limited Christian position on homosexuality. As to whether it can be reversed or “cured”, the Catholic church does not take a position other than that such judgements are up to health and psychiatric professionals.

    Yes, the Church does preach that refraining from homosexual intercourse is to avoid a sin and is the way for a person who is homosexual or has homosexual tendencies or attractions to live a Christian chaste life. But remember Church also preaches that refraining from sexual intercourse is the way to live a chaste Christian life for all coupes not married.

    At least let us be very clear and precise in these discussion lest we get carried away with rhetoric and absolutism and play into the hands of our critics and make ourselves appear to truly be the bigots that other groups try to make us out to be.

  58. “Also, when we argue that our lifestyle is ethical, that is something that is NOT specific to your religion. Ethics is something that all communities engage in.”

    You need to read my earlier post that speaks of absolute truth because that is what you are talking about here. You’re saying that there is no such thing as absolute truth because what is true for me may not be true for you. But this statement in itself, is being made absolutely. In other words, it applies some rule or standard to everyone across the board – exactly what a relativist like you sound to be, would say is impossible. So basically, you will have undone any of your own arguments simply by stating your case.

    Lastly, you contradict yourself a lot in your posting. But let me name out one: If what two consenting gay adults do has no ethical rammifications, then why do you say “when we (homosexuals) argue that our lifestyle is ethical..”? Again, there is that absolute truth speech that you’ll give, which alone will contradict you and tear apart your own argument before you even start.

    You cannot make sense of your own argument because what you’re really arguing about here is a no-such-thing-as-absolute-truth, which I have just supplied you with why that is not true, and why that ultimately makes your argument weak.

  59. Yes, we all have rights, individual God given, rights. There is no such thing as gay, lesbian, one-armed, red haired, or buck tooth people, rights. The government should stop with the marriage interference and let everyone marry who they want and as many people as they want. Marriage is none of their business. Government cannot regulate personal behavior and until they understand this we will never be free.
    We control our personal behavior by following God’s 10 Commandments.

  60. There is one person you should be concerned about in what He thinks of your anal sex. GOD. Think about what you will say to Him when you are standing before Him after you die!

  61. First of all, it should have been implicit from the ENTIRETY of what I wrote that I meant there are no ramifications to consider “what two consenting gay adults do has no ethical ramifications over and beyond those of straight couples.” Is that easier? Sorry. If that isn’t clear, then you are the idiot.

    Also, I don’t care about your juvenile assertions in absolute truth. Whatever beliefs you have concocted for yourself you apparently believe you and Christians are the only ones capable of teaching the world about ethics. Not only is that sad and juvenile, its incredibly egocentric. Not all ethical systems suppose absolute truth. I would encourage you to read, oh I don’t know ANY modern philosopher.

    So far all you have done is introduce the topic “absolute truth” and with some hand waving have tried to convince me that anybody who isn’t christian and makes an ethical statement is contradicting themselves. Idiot.

  62. Your thinking sounds very similar to Reinhold Neibhur, a figure in modern Christian theology I appreciate greatly.

  63. The definition of sin has changed throughout the Bible and Christian history. That is not an acceptable argument.

  64. Though you may not care if others think homosexual activity is sinful, you should be interested in what God says about it. Do not be victimized by the wickedness, nor trapped by the snares, of the devil. Eternity is forever.

  65. You’re splitting hairs. The negative views are expressed as a Christian protest of the homosexual act, so there’s no scandal here. But you dismiss the very real occasion of scandal to impressionable youth having to watch Bill and Bob smooch. And please do not compare homosexual with heterosexual sex. Yes, it is understood that the latter, outside of marriage, is mortally sinful but the marriage act was beautifully designed by God for the pleasure and procreativity of a husband and wife. The vile act of homosexual intercourse is always sinful and is an ever-widening snare set by Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls.

  66. “scandal to impressionable youth” – This is just sick. The message you are sending to gay youth is sick and YOU and the people LIKE YOU are the reasons kids are killing themselves in high schools. Your bigotry, your sick hate speech, are what causes this.

    Secondly. You seem to believe that homosexuality is caused by evil spirits. You and your entire way of thinking belong in another century. Homosexuality is an inborn characteristic in mammals and there are specific regions of the brain associated with it. Make up whatever gibberish you want. People are learning more and more about the world around them, and they see your idiocy for what it is.

  67. live any lifestyle you want…there will be consequences
    maybe people should lie to you…will you call them friends then?

  68. My friends don’t use hate speech.

    I’m no more concerned about your “consequences” than I am when I hear kids talking about their imaginary friends getting angry. Your fantasy life means nothing to me.

    The fact that your entire system of belief is grounded in contradiction is amusing though.

  69. how many of your ‘friends’ tell you to jump off a bridge?
    If one friend did how would you respond?
    There are people who don’t know you but are concerned for your eternal state. You can beat this thing.

  70. If one of my “friends” were jumping off a bridge… I would probably look around for what they were RUNNING AWAY FROM.

    In this case its probably you and your friends with a pitchfork and shotgun. I’ll fight gravity before Christian “love” and “friendship” any day.

    Your only concern is twisting my life and my voice to further your cult. You love picking on gay people to the point of making them vulnerable and then subverting them to all your brainwashing. I have math, science, and modern philosophy. If I need you or your sickness for something, well that is news to be me, but it certainly isn’t the “good news”.

  71. “There is one person you should be concerned about in what He thinks of your anal sex. GOD. Think about what you will say to Him when you are standing before Him after you die!”

    If God actually exists and the topic comes up, I have to admit I would thank him for the Anal sex. It really is the most enjoyable thing I’ve ever experienced.

  72. You all keep talking about Anal sex. Don’t you think the fact that it is sooo pleasurable is maybe, I kind of a sign that God wanted you to do it? Or at least didn’t want you to hate yourself for liking it?

    Why would God want you to hate something he made you enjoy so much? It just doesn’t even make sense.

  73. Some pro-homosexuals invite readers to infer that God created homosexuals, apparently because there may be a biological component to homosexuality. However, any biological component is theologically explainable as a consequence of Man’s Fall – Original Sin. Death is now biologically natural, but was never part of God’s created intent for Man. Rather, death, disease, disorders, are consequences of Original Sin even if there are biological components. There is no theological need to assign homosexuality to God’s doing nor is there any scriptural evidence for this. Original Sin had consequences on both our souls and our bodies. If God did create homosexuality, why does He condemn homosexual acts in both the old and new testaments – Leviticus, 1 Cor, 1Tim?

  74. Some pro-homosexuals assert that Christian elimination of certain Old Testament laws is reason to now allow the acceptance of active homosexuality. The Church teaches that
    elimination of Old Testament cleanliness, ceremonial and dietary laws was directly linked to Christ’s death and resurrection. Christ fulfilled the law and broke down the barriers between God and man, Jew and Gentile, which Scripture says these laws represented (look it up). The ceremonial or purity/ritual laws have to do with tabernacle and temple. They were introduced by God to reinforce the concepts of holiness and bodily purity. Cleansing from impurity was to be accomplished through sacrificial offerings. The rules and regulations associated with the temple no longer apply to Christians for the very good reason that Jesus Christ, in his body and through his blood, has fulfilled and replaced the temple. He died the death required of the woman caught in adultery and that required by every person who has ever committed adultery. Christ died the death required of every person who has ever committed the moral sin of murder or the moral sin of homosexuality. He fulfilled the law. Our death is no longer required.

  75. Some people who advocate active homosexuality accuse others of judging. I believe they confuse admonishing with judging or judging souls vs. judging actions The context of Jesus’ most notable admonishing judging is one where a final determination of the woman’s soul was about to be made – she was about to be put to death for adultery. Some may believe the episode of the woman caught in adultery was a parable, and Jesus was speaking metaphorically. It wasn’t, and he wasn’t. Don’t’ equate quite proper criticism of behavior with stoning someone to death. Most of the so-called judging going on is merely the preaching about judgments already made by God. There are many places in Scripture that say we should admonish someone who’s behavior is putting their souls in danger (e.g. 2 Thess 3:14-15 and 1 Tim 5:20.
    In the Church admonishing the sinner is considered a spiritual work of mercy. In the Old Testament, the death penalty prefigured eternal damnation. Jesus says we cannot make such a final determination. However, admonishing is a warning – not a final determination. Jesus, after admonishing the Jewish leaders not to judge (put the woman to death), he also admonishes the woman and tells her to go and sin no more. Some pro-

    homosexuals say Christians should not judge. When they say this are they judging or
    admonishing people for what they call judging? If they were admonishing them, why is judging the only sin that can be admonished?
    “If I say to the wicked, ‘you shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked man from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.” Ez 33:7-13.
    I will obey God’s command to me to warn (admonish); I do not accept your value system that says not to warn.

  76. the Levitical prohibition against active homosexuality is placed squarely with adultery, child sacrifice, sex with animals, and cursing your parents. Christ’s death and resurrection undid none of these moral prohibitions. Unlike cleanliness and dietary laws, most of these sins carried the death penalty in the Old Testament to signify grave immorality. Jesus eliminated the death penalty, but the Old Testament death penalty pre-figured eternal damnation – and this still looms as an outcome. Jesus does not eliminate the Levitical moral laws – if anything he makes them stricter. Jesus moves us closer to God’s original plan. He forbids divorce, he raises the status of women, he calls a lustful eye equivalent to adultery, and he says we are in danger of hell if we curse anyone. Paul
    includes, as incest, even non-blood related circumstances that are immoral.
    Accepting active homosexuality does not move us closer to God’s original plan, rather it regresses us beyond the distortions from God’s original plan permitted in the Old Testament.

  77. Judson, so by your criteria, sado-masohcism if done between agreeing partners is good in the eyes of God.

  78. Judson, resorting to childish name-calling is JUVENILE; it is also an indirect admittance of acknowledging you have lost your own argument.

    But my question to you is, why are you here on this board if not to argue that homosexuality is normal?? You completely dismissed my argument concerning absolute truth because it’s right and makes a very valid point. Your entire post and other postings of yours clearly argue in favor of homosexuality as being normal and therefore acceptable. But what I did was take this argument to another level. That is to say that I summed up why I disagree with you by introducing the topic of absolute truth. Let me take THIS REAL SLOW for you:

    When man starts setting his own set of truths, they start to contradict that of another man’s set of truths/beliefs. I could steal from you and you may find it wrong, but because I don’t believe it is, there’s nothing you can say or do to convince me that it’s wrong otherwise. From this absence of absolute truth comes chaos and confusion. As human beings, we are imperfect. There will always be flaws in our thinking. We would become barbaric and lost in trying to search for truth. There has to be a higher power or source; a perfection that can set us on the right path, so that we can follow it to the best that we can. In other words, a rule or standard that applies to ALL across the board. What better answer is there than the almighty God, the Creator? And guess what, He says homosexual relationships are wrong and immoral. These are not my words. These are His words. But you’re too blind to see that because your argument only goes so far in that it is based on YOUR OWN SET OF TRUTHS AND BELIEFS. And guess what? Your thinking/reasoning stops after a while. It gets cuts short because it is flawed. It cannot be justified. It is why you name-call. Yet, you refuse to acknowledge this and accept it. NOW WHO IS THE NARROW-MINDED ONE HERE? If you cannot understand this, then you are lost, but if you do understand yet refuse to believe this, then that’s on you. May God take pity on your soul, Judson.

  79. “homosexuality a naturally-occurring event found in more than 450 species”; an absolute lie. To say you love God is also a lie. Enjoy this life, because you WILL have hell to pay.

  80. “If God actually exists and the topic comes up, I have to admit I would thank him for the Anal sex. It really is the most enjoyable thing I’ve ever experienced.”

    Exactly, lust but not love…

  81. No. Just because something feels good doesn’t make it right. A loose woman can have sex with as many men as she wants, but it doesn’t make it right. If anything, she suffers repercussions from it such as “issues”, is emotionally unstable, etc. If a person smokes hallucenogens and likes the trips they experience, it doesn’t make it right. It harms the body and can cause that person to kill themselves unintentionally because they are not aware of reality during the time they are under the influence.

    “Why would God want you to hate something he made you enjoy so much? It just doesn’t even make sense.” <– That's giving in to temptation. I have my own temptations that I have to resist. God is like a parent. When a parent says no to a child wanting to eat candy, they say so for the child's own good. They would be a bad parent if they allowed their child to eat lots of candy only to end up with a stomach ache, rotten teeth, diabetes, etc.

    And don't come back with the argument that love is the answer either, because even love is blind, bliss and ignorant. Love does not define or justify a relationship. Love of God ultimately does.

  82. Leviticus? You sure you are following all those commandments?

    Even later parts of the Bible jettison chunks of Leviticus. Your argument relies on a hypocritical assertion.

  83. I assume you believe God made your brain as well. You might try using it.

    Why would God give you a mind that is capable of discerning the cosmos if he wanted you to fall back on fairy tale explanations for the way the world works.

    Homosexuality is a product of evolution. There are reasons why the genes are beneficial to the species and maintained.

    Of course this requires science and math… neither of which appear in the Bible. So you might be out of luck.

  84. We are not of all those species you talk about. We are human. God joined man and woman, from the very beginning. Then instituted marriage between a man and woman. He did not join animals or institute marriage between species. Do not put yourself or me into that category.

  85. Actually you demonstrate your ignorance quite readily.

    The word used to condemn ” a man lying with another as with a woman” is one of ritual purity and NOT moral purity. They had different words for that. You might not know this, but the Bible wasn’t written in English.

    Also, those passages don’t say simply “don’t have sex with men” … it specifies that you can’t do it “as with a woman”… canaanite culture emphasized ritual prostitution wherein males dressed as females and impersonated female deities at various festivals. Leaders of the village were expected to pay tribute to the prostitutes as a sign of subservience. The entire focus of the Hebrew cannon however is on individuals coming to God directly without intermediaries. Jewish laws were designed to use the Priests to create a space in which man could come in contact with God directly. You are using that rule completely out of context and intentionally misinterpreting it. I’m going to guess you don’t know any Hebrew, or anything about the Canaanite cultures that informed the Hebrew writers at that time.

    +1 for ignorance~!

    Of course the new testament says there is “neither man nor woman in christ” … so I’m having trouble seeing gender as anything God cares about.

  86. My point is that there is no ethical difference in a gay or straight couple engaging in whatever it is you apparently are into.

  87. Oh. That completely makes sense. The woman can’t have sex with whomever she wants so she is NEVER allowed to have sex.

    As long as you are saying straight people should have sex, then I guess you are being fair.

    Let me ask you something… why is something a sin? It sounds to me like you think something is sinful simply because it is pleasurable.

    Sin is NOT the presence of pleasure unless it was derived from damage to another person. Anal sex doesn’t hurt anybody, it builds relationships between partners, and its fun. The only wickedness is in your ignorance and hate speech about anybody that engages in it.

    Of course, Love is the answer. Your God said you would be known by your love. Nothing about your people seems like love. So to most of the world, you just seem like jerks. If Jesus were to come back today, most of the Church would think he was the anti-christ.

  88. And Alan Turing wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for his parents: a man and woman.

    Gays halt the progress and continuation of the human race because they are incapable of procreating. Also, gay men have a short life expectancy from that of their straight counterparts. This is not progress at all. But they like to argue otherwise. Narrowmindedness at its worst.

  89. Its only “temptation” because of your circular logic.

  90. You are soooo ignorant its SAAAAD.

    How many wives did David have?

    How many wives were you allowed to have in the “old testament”… wow. Sounds like things have changed.

    In fact some places in the bible it says you should get married, and then Paul says the exact opposite saying its really better to be celibate.

    Its almost like you WANT to misrepresent the Bible.

    The fact is Marriage now is VERY different from what it was then. Even the marriage presented in the second half is different from the first.

    ” He did not join animals or institute marriage between species. ”

    I don’t know how to explain this to you… but gay people have sex with humans… not animals. I know you probably listen to a lot of propaganda, but please try to understand… YOU are thinking about sex with animals more than I ever have in my entire life.

  91. “It is simply wrong. ”

    I think the same thing about your horrid religious beliefs.

    Raising a Child christian is CHILD ABUSE.

  92. Some pro-homosexuals would have you believe that if homosexuality was being condemned in the New Testament, other, more descriptive Greek words would have been used rather than the words actually used. For example, St. Paul used arsenokoitai to describe active homosexuality. Some claim Paul invented the word and assert its meaning is either unclear or speculate it refers to male prostitutes. There is a simpler explanation.
    In the Greek version of the Old Testament (Septuagint – considered canonical by the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church), written before Paul, the words referring to active homosexuality in Leviticus are arsenos koiten. This indicates that Greek speaking Jews had already nearly fused the two root words to form arsenokoites. Paul’s later writings, such as 1 Cor6:9 and 1 Tim 10 actually did fuse the two words.
    Perhaps Paul uses arsenokoitai and not other Greek words, to clarify that opposition to homosexuality was rooted in Levitical moral law. Using other Greek words would not have rooted opposition in Jewish Levitical moral law and could convey an ambiguous moral attitude reflective of Greek/Roman culture. According to many prominent bibles, Leviticus 20:13 translates as “men who lie with a male as with a woman.” There are no qualifications. Nothing in the words themselves indicating they refer to only certain forms of homosexual acts. The other sins mentioned in the same Levitical passage are also unqualified – adultery, sex with animals, child sacrifice, incest – they are always wrong and grave in nature. Although there are prohibitions regarding male-female incest, there is no mention of male-male incest. Why? Perhaps it is already covered in Leviticus 20:13. A number of extra-biblical Jewish/early Christian writings indicated non-acceptance of any form of active homosexuality Yes, some Jewish/early Christian writers did reference Leviticus in connection with more specific types of homosexuality. However, if Leviticus does include all forms of homosexual acts then of course specific applications, e.g., shrine prostitution, would be included. Such a specific application does not prove Leviticus is limited to shrine prostitution, however
    Also, early translations of Paul’s letters into Latin, Coptic, and Syriac translate similarly as the original, i.e., there are no references to shrine prostitution, or pederasty when translated into these other languages as one might expect if it was intended to applied to such things as prostitution or pederasty. Instead they translate a general homosexual acts.

  93. No it dosn’t Judson, please read and understand why Christians no longer need to abide by the old testament purity laws. It is Christianity 101.

  94. So… why is the sex you have all about love and mine is all about lust?

    have you ever heard of Rorschach test???

  95. A common argument from somebody that hasn’t studied the texts.

    The passages in Leviticus and those written by Paul are referencing prostitution. Ritual prostitution. Both passages have that in common.

    Of course I’m sure you realize that Paul was the FIRST person to ever use that word, so we have NO HISTORICAL context to translate it in.

    Aside from the fact that temple prostitution was the focus of both of those passages.

  96. Homosexuality may be the product of evolution, but it was not meant for man. However, due to Original Sin, God’s protecting grace was removed, so man became suseptible to his lower instincts.

  97. ““men who lie with a male as with a woman.”

    So it doesn’t say “men who lie with men.”

    instead it adds… “as with a woman.”

    You know a woman has no way of penetrating another man. When you penetrate a woman you penetrate her vagina not her anus. Anal sex is something ONLY men can do.

    The prohibition is against men dressing up as female deities an engaging in ritual prostitution.

  98. Judson, show me evidence from Jewish/Christian writings of your interpretion. Below is extrabiblical sources supporting the Church’s interpretation:
    Josephus (1st century Jewish historian) tried to explain the Mosaic Law to Gentiles as
    “the law recognizes only sexual intercourse that is according to nature, that is with a woman…But it abhors the intercourse of males with males” (Against Apion 2:199).

    The Apostolic Constitutions (early Church document)
    “for the conjunction of man and wife, if it be with righteousness , is agreeable to the mind of God for he had made then from the beginning male and female, and he blessed them….but we do not say so of that mixture that is contrary to nature, or of any unlawful practice; for such are enmity to God. For the sin of Sodom is contrary to nature. As is also that with brute beasts….All these things are forbidden by the laws; for thus say the oracles””Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind”

    Tertullian “The Christian confines himself to the female sex.” (Apology, 46)
    And: “I should suppose the coupling of two males to be a very shameful thing”
    Against the Valentinians, 11)

    These people are nearly 2,000 years closer in culture and language than today’s pro-homosexual revisionists.

  99. If, as pro-homosexuals assert, Leviticus applied only to cult prostitution, then other questions arise. Although there are specific qualifications prohibiting male-female incest in Leviticus , there is no mention of qualifications for male-male incest. Why?
    In the nations surrounding Israel, there were all types of laws with qualifications concerning homosexual acts – under certain conditions it was allowed, but not all conditions . Why didn’t Israel also specify qualifications if it only applied to cult prostitution? Also, if Leviticus only applied to cult prostitution why do extra-biblical sources of the period (for example, Josephus, Apostolic Constitution, Philo) clearly refer to Leviticus in terms of marriage only being permitted for a man and a woman and denounce homosexual acts generally? If it only referred to cult prostitution, where are the rabbinic commentaries saying homosexual acts, under certain conditions, were permissible? If Leviticus only referred to cult prostitution, why wasn’t the same word for cult prostitutes (qedesim) that was used in the other biblical passages also used in Leviticus? If Leviticus only refers to male cult prostitutes, then what Levitical law covered non-cult prostitution pederasty? Are we to assume men having sex with post-pubescent boys outside of cult prostitution was permitted in Israel? If so, where is the supporting reference? On the other hand, if Leviticus was general in its references to homosexuality, then all forms of homosexual acts, including cult prostitution and pederasty, would be automatically covered. This general meaning would also answer all the questions raised above.

  100. If you assert that homosexuality exists in animals for positive reasons, and that even God could have been behind this, then why not the same with humans?

    Can you think of any other “base instincts” that god removed from humans?

    Homosexuality is maintained in the human population for many beneficial reasons: it increases the fertility of next of kin, it increases the number of gatherers in clan units, it provides a natural source of adoption in the even of tragedy. There are demonstrable benefits to having gay people in the human population… so why are these benefits suddenly made negative by the fact that God supposedly raised us up?

  101. In the Greek version of the Old Testament (called the Septuagint), written several hundred years before St. Paul, the Hebrew words referring to active homosexuality in Leviticus are translated arsenos koiten in Greek. This strongly indicates that Greek speaking Jews had already nearly fused the two root words together to form arsenokoites. Paul’s later writings, such as 1 Cor6:9 may actually have fused the two words. The New Testament quotes and uses the Septuagint in over 300 instances so 1 Cor 6:9 is not an isolated occurrence. The New Testament also has other instances of fusing words found in the Old Testament . Pro-homosexuals assert that arsenokoites does not appear in classical Greek so it’s meaning cannot be determined, but the reason you don’t see arsenokoites in classical Greek may be because it is of Jewish coinage and may not have been well known outside of Hellenistic Jewish/Chirstian circles. The two words combined from the Septuagint’s Levitical translation as St. Paul used them, put “male” and “bed” together in a sexual sense. There is no hint of prostitution in the meaning of either of the words combined to make arsenokoitai. Pro-homosexuals prefer to portray the word as being created by Paul without clear meaning to us today. They often do not make mention of this possible linkage to the Septuagint because it undercuts their ability to contrive interpretations for arsenokoites that are beneficial to their view that homosexual acts are sometimes permissible. But if arsenokoites is derived from the general Hebrew Levitical prohibition “men who lie with a male as with a woman”, then speculations as to what it meant are much more limited.
    It is plausible that Paul uses arsenokoites and not other Greek words, in order to make clear that opposition to homosexual practice was rooted in Levitical moral law and Jewish understanding that active homosexuality was always wrong. Using other Greek words would not have rooted opposition in Jewish Levitical moral law. The connection to Levitical moral law is strengthened by its use in 1Tm1:10 where arsenokoites are called law breakers. Also, the writings of Josephus (Jewish historian) make clear that all male-male homosexual activity is against Mosaic law:

  102. God’s Word comes from the Bible and if you believe in that, then it is a sin to commit homosexual acts. 1 Corinthians 9–
    Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

  103. “male-male incest. Why? ”

    I thought the point would have been obvious… male/male incest doesn’t produce offspring. Taboo laws concerning incest in most cultures focus on those that have the highest chance of producing a hapsberg….

    Also. I don’t see how the sources you provided refute my case.

    Straight men engaging in ritual prostitution with gay males dressed as female deities… doesn’t seem natural. You can pretend this wasn’t present ALL AROUND PAUL at the time… but that would be ignorant.

    Either way, your interpretation of arsenkoites basically comes down to your interpretation of leviticus, which is OBVIOUSLY about canaanite prostitution.

    Its a jump to say that applies to consenting gay adults in committed relationships.

  104. So … you DON:T think the canaanites had this culture? or you don’t think that the hebrews were responding to it?

    which is it?

  105. Also… you realize the word “toevah” specifically denotes ritual impurities… the entire focus of original hebrew phrase is embedded in a notion of ritual purity that was transgressed by transvestite temple prostitution. If you are basing your interpretation of the Greek sections on the Hebrew, then you cannot ignore the emphasis is one of ritual, and specifically the way in which temple prostitution violated the ritual purity of the Hebrew law.

  106. You have shown me from Scritpure anything that supports your interpretation. Levitcius, and 1 Cor, 1Tim are all very general. There is nothing in them that supports prostituion only interpretation. Nor do you provide extarbiblical support. Also arsenkoitiai is used in many contexts – not just prostitution – so you prostitution only argument is bogus.

  107. To support their contention arsenokoitai refers to cult prostitution some pro-homosexuals infer that there was on-going homosexual prostitution in Paul’s day in Corinth and that this was the background to Paul’s letter to the Corinthians in connection with idolatry/homosexuality. However, there is no support for this. The scholarly consensus is that there was no homosexual prostitution at the Corinthian temple of Aphrodite in Paul’s day . Source for this is Robert Gagnon book on homosexuality.

  108. SO… you admit the passages are vague, difficult to translate, but I’m the one that’s doing it wrong?


  109. Some pro-homosexuals assert that only when a word is used in context, can the meaning be determined and that Leviticus, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 10 do not refer to homosexual acts in general but only to unidentified specific types of occurrences of homosexual acts. If no context is given, they believe, no determination can be made as to what circumstance the text is referring to. This is misleading. The number of extra-biblical citations of arsenokoitai not using context vs with context is much greater, i.e. there are many more uses of the word without context than with context. Rather than this indicating that no determination can be made of the meaning of the word, I believe it indicates a general meaning – it was always wrong. All homosexual acts are immoral regardless of context – so no context is usually needed – unless you are addressing a specific problem like pederasty or cult prostitution. Again, if you want a law to apply to all conditions then no particular context is needed when the law is formulated.
    In addition, where extra biblical sources use arsenokoitai in context it is not only applied it to cult prostitution but also pederasty and heterosexual anal intercourse so clearly its usage was not only applicable to cult prostitution but was broader in meaning – which is consistent with the interpretation that it applied to homosexual acts in general and does not support the ‘cult prostitution only’ interpretation.

  110. LOL. No temple prostitution. Awesome.

    Gagnon. I didn’t have any respect for him in Seminary and I still don’t.

    His “interpretations” and his “history” are questioned by anybody with a Brain.

  111. No Judson, homosexuality in animals may be the result of the Fall of the Angels. God wanted to use man to perfect creation.

  112. So… basically your argument boils down to ” i feel like this has always been right so i must be right”

    good luck with that. sounds like you are just superimposing your own bigotry onto the scripture, but hey. you’re a christian so you’re probably above reproach.

  113. Evolution. Its really really simple. If you understand ANY math.

    Homosexuality is product of evolution. If you can’t deal with the real world, you always have your beliefs.

  114. They translation is quite clear. Arsenkoitai refers to all forms of homosexuality as demsonstared by its broad application is sources outside the bible. It is your insistence it only applies to prostitution that is narrow.

  115. There are many examples of the word ‘toevah’being used in Scritpure that clealry apply to moral laws. You make no mention of them

  116. Translation, Judson: You would thank God for free will. God wants you to WANT to worship Him and follow His way. If He automatically made us worship Him, could we say we really and truly love Him? Of course not. He wants us to CHOOSE Him of our OWN FREE WILL in spite of temptations and what looks and sounds good but isnt. Remember Adam and Eve and the forbidden yet very attractive fruit. That is key. God doesn’t want you to CHOOSE a deviant lifestyle. Lesbian actress Cynthia Nixon SAYS SHE CHOSE a homosexual lifestyle. Exactly what disappoints God. A rorschach test isn’t going to prove anything other than brainwash one into thinking that because you see something, it is so. Again, what good is one man’s interpretation from another man’s if both views contradict each other? There has to be a higher source that sets the standard for everyone – even if it is a struggle to live by, but is right and beneficial, such as overcoming alcohol addiction. And that source is God’s law. Like it or not, it is the path that leads to goodness. Please stop being so narrowminded and listen to God because He is calling you. That’s why you’re here on this board. If all these people cannot help you, then may God take pity on your soul.

  117. Lelio, my heart goes out to you my friend. You have a Cross to carry that many don’t understand including the medical profession. But make no mistake about it, it is a heavy cross and burden. Touching on a couple of your points. Civil rights does have its limitations, civil rights is not a document to do whatever we want, whenever we want to whomever we want. No government no institution no dictator as the right or the authority to redefine marriage. Since the beginning of recorded history (5000 years or so) marriage has been defined as a covenant between one man and one woman. Using civil rights as an argument to redefine this institution is a grave injustice to the term civil rights. No government has the authority to redefine this institution. If our government and/or society decide to redefine the covenant of marriage then where does it stop? Will it be a civil right for two men and one woman to enter into the marriage covenant? Will it be a civil right that 3 women and 2 men to enter into a marriage covenant? Will it be a civil right for a man to have 5 wives? Where does it stop? The 2nd issue is the issue of our sexuality, a very complex question with no easy answer. But I think we have to start with the question can the part of the human brain that controls our sexual urges malfunction or somehow become corrupted? The answer is unequivocally and absolutely yes. Let’s use the example of a pedophile, most pedophiles don’t chose to have corrupted sexual urges and compulsions, they can’t help it? What about sadomasochist, is this normal human behavior? What about heterosexual men addicted to porn? You see the part of the brain that controls our sexuality can become severely distorted and corrupt. In every single one of the examples I just provided it is not a sin to have these urges and feelings within, the sin occurs when we outwardly express these urges. It saddens me to hear a person say this is who I am or I was born this way. Sexuality is part of who a person is, but it is not who a person is. And sex is not necessarily love, sex is a part of our expression of love, sex in a committed lifelong relationship between one man and one woman. Sex by its very nature is life-giving you cannot separate sex’s primary function from the act. You cannot remove the life-giving power of sex from the act. The family is a reflection of God, the holy Trinity. God by his very nature is both love and life, we cannot separate love from life. When I was a young man I was very promiscuous and used the life-giving act of sex for my own selfish pleasure. My sin was not in having those desires; my sin was acting them out, going against the very purpose that God created sex for. I paid a heavy price spiritually, physically, emotionally and mentally for my choices. You two will pay a price just as every heterosexual and homosexual who goes against Gods design for sex. You see Lelio, the only thing that can set you free is the truth. But as human beings when we find truth we try desperately to change it. We tried everything in our power and we justify all our actions in the hopes we change truth thereby justifying our actions. But the more we try to change truth the more frustrated and desperate we become, because you see in the end truth will change us. You cannot call people who disagree with you bigots no more than I could call people bigots when they disagreed with me about my selfish ways in my youth. In the end the only thing that set me free was the truth. Jesus Christ is that Truth, He can and will set you free if you cooperate with him and stop fighting Him. You are a sinner like the rest of us in need of redemption and salvation like the rest of us but most importantly you are a child of God and he loves you beyond measure and he truly desires with all his heart to set you free.

  118. You shouldn’t care what anyone thinks. You need to ask yourself what does God think? You also shouldn’t worry about defending your actions to man, be more concerned about your actions in the eyes of God. I sense anger in most of your responses. I personally have never had to defend myself against pure and righteous actions, only against my sinful actions which are plentyful. You are trying your best to defend yourself against your actions. That alone should raise a red flag.

  119. Judson, we all have a conscience, put there by, I dare say, God! That is why sodomites try to justify their evil acts by wanting to get “married.” Once they are “married” in the eyes of civil authorities then they can justify their sodomy. They think they’ll be happy then, but they won’t be because their conscience will tell them that what they are doing is wrong. And they will find this out for sure when they are standing before God and will not have an answer for why they offended Him.
    Some people do have the inclination to want to be with the same sex, but it is against God’s laws to act in a sexual way with a member of the same sex, just as it is wrong for heterosexuals to have sex outside of marriage.

  120. Good post, John. Do not pay attention to the sick post by Judson below yours.

  121. Wow, can you twist Holy Scripture and history to confirm your own perverted thinking.

  122. I was referring to Judson. Now I am getting off of here. Some of these people are so perverted, encouraging a misuse of a bodily function which is meant for excretion. and expecting taxpayers to pay for the damages done to their bodies from such behavior and trying to encourage young people that it is okay to destroy themselves like that. Some very evil people. That is all I have to say.

  123. Lelio, I have been following these comments and have decided to answer this question. The Bible did not justify slavery, man used it to justify salvery and man was wrong. When it is used to slaughter innocents to convert to the faith again the Bible does not justify that, man does and man is wrong. God’s laws never change. They are the 10 Commandants. They can be all put together as the two greatest commandants. 1. Love God with all you heart, soul and mind. 2) Love your neighbor as yourself. People who violate the Sabbath or children that curse their parents do not need to be put to death. They need our prays, and with God’s love they will realize that they are doing wrong and correct their ways. Have I done work for the poor, yes but that is something that I am only telling you because you ask. Nothing I would ever want to talk about. We are not suppose to brag about our good deeds. Just life the second greatest commandant quietly. From your posts I can see that you are not ready to understand the great love that God has for you. And that you are still putting yourself and your life first. I understand. I also was like that at one time. No I am not gay. I was just a fun loving person, who put my faith last. And thought my life was going pretty well. I had many earthly problems, but just chalked it up to “that’s life”. Than as I grew into and getting out of middle age, I came back to my faith. Around when I was 50. I have never been happier. And so many wonderful things have happened to be since than. God has been very good to me. I thought I had a great life. I had nothing. Now I have a wonderful life. A full life. With a wonderful husband and true friends. I will pray for you and only wish you all the happiness in the world. But I can tell you the only way you will find that is through God.

  124. Often-times many pro-homosexuals re-interpret New Testament verses insisting a proper interpretation of the verses does not condemn all forms of active homosexuality. This is particularly true for Paul’s letters. The pro-homosexuals either claim the passages do not refer to homosexuality, or only to abusive/idolatrous forms of homosexuality. They would have us believe that anti-“gay” interpretations are held by only traditional Christians or those who are misinformed. However there are a number of prominent biblical scholars who are pro-“gay” but also acknowledge that Paul’s writings do indeed condemn all homosexual activity.

    Below are quotes from noted biblical scholars who favor active homosexuality; yet, they also agree that the New Testament does not allow any form of homosexuality. The primary source for this list is an article entitled “The Faulty Orientation Argument of Anglican Archbishop Harper of Ireland” by Robert A J Gagnon and the book “Homosexuality and the Bible – Two Views”, by Robert A J Gagnon and Dan O. Via.

    Dan O. Via : “The Pauline texts . . . do not support this limitation of male homosexuality to pederasty…. I believe that [Richard] Hays is correct in holding that arsenokoites [in 1 Cor 6:9] refers to a man who engages in same-sex intercourse. . . . True the meaning of a compound word does not necessarily add up to the sum of its parts ([Dale] Martin 119). But in this case I believe the evidence suggests that it does. . . . First Cor[inthians] 6:9-10 simply classifies homosexuality as a moral sin that finally keeps one out of the kingdom of God. “Homosexuality and the Bible – Two Views” Dan O. Via and Robert A.J. Gagnon page 13.

    Martti Nissinen, a Finnish Old Testament scholar “For him (Paul), there is no individual inversion or inclination that would make this conduct less culpable…. Presumably nothing would have made Paul approve homoerotic behavior. (Homoeroticism in the Biblical World: A Historical Perspective [Minneapolis: Fortress, 1998], 109-12)

    Bernadette Brooten has written: “ I see Paul as condemning all forms of homoeroticism as the unnatural acts of people who had turned away from God. (Love Between Women: Early Christian Responses to Female Homoeroticism [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1996], 244)

    William R. Schoedel, a pro-homosexual professor emeritus at the University of Illinois who has expertise in early Christianity and classics, has written: “Paul’s wholesale attack on Greco-Roman culture makes better sense if, like Josephus and Philo, he lumps all forms of same-sex eros together as a mark of Gentile decadence,” including committed relationships by those homoerotically oriented (“Same-Sex Eros: Paul and the Greco-Roman Tradition,” Homosexuality, Science, and the “Plain Sense” of Scripture, 68
    Louis Crompton, emeritus professor of English at the University of Nebraska and author of the recent work, Homosexuality and Civilization (Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 2003; 622 pgs.), writes:
    “According to [one] interpretation, Paul’s words were not directed at “bona fide” homosexuals in committed relationships. But such a reading, however well-intentioned, seems strained and unhistorical. Nowhere does Paul or any other Jewish writer of this period imply the least acceptance of same-sex relations under any circumstance. The idea that homosexuals might be redeemed by mutual devotion would have been wholly foreign to Paul or any other Jew or early Christian. (p. 114) “
    Walter Wink has acknowledged, in the Christian Century review: “The Bible is negative toward same-sex behavior, and there is no getting around it. . . . Paul wouldn’t accept [a nonexploitative homosexual] relationship for a minute.”
    If such pro-“gay” individuals believe that Scripture clearly forbids homosexual practice, then why do they believe certain forms of active homosexuality are permissible within Christianity? Dan O. Via answers by saying he and others have revelations that supersede the New Testament. They believe the Holy Spirit is leading them to such new revelation -”Homosexuality and the Bible – Two Views” pages 38-39.

  125. A couple of additional points:
    In ancient times homosexual sex dealing with shrine prostitution was the most accepted form of homosexuality because the people believe that the gods made these men this was. So when Israel condemns cult prostitution it is condemning the most accepted form of homosexuality and therefore all other forms as well.
    If the context of the Leviticus passages concerning homosexual acts is that homosexual acts are wrong in the context of cult prostitution, then it would mean that Leviticus is saying adultery, bestiality, and cursing your parents are wrong because it is tied to cult prostitution. Sorry, I don’t buy that. These are always wrong regardless of other conditions. They have nothing to do with cult prostitution.
    Leviticus passages speak of males taking the female role – generally; it says nothing about the male being a prostitute.

  126. Right. A book written over a period of thousands of years in multiple geographic region can probably be boiled down to plain sense. That is probably the extent of your reasoning anyway.

    ” Nowhere does Paul or any other Jewish writer of this period imply the least acceptance of same-sex relations under any circumstance.”

    Gee. Maybe because sexual orientation is a modern understanding?

    Explain to me again why I’m supposed to be surprised that the bible doesn’t talk about something that nobody in that era knew anything of?

    The point is that the context of what he is clearly writing about is NOT the modern context. Even if you exclude temple prostitution, the institution of slavery utilized individuals in the same way and extracted sex from unwilling participants on a regular basis.

    Your insistence on a circular reading is exhausting.

    I have never heard such a stupid comment in all my life.

  127. Ahh. but it doesn’t use the same words or phrasings to condemn them. They are described in very different ways.

    Also, you seem to be conflating a lot of religions into one… the prostitution cults in the ancient worlds spanned many many different beliefs. You will remember that Caligula forced ALL of the children of the nobility into prostitution for a brief period of time. Men, women, youths could all be purchased under his order. It does not appear as though this was consensual on the part of many.

    These are always wrong regardless of other conditions. They have nothing to do with cult prostitution.

    There are plenty of rules in Leviticus. Some we ignore other we don’t.
    My point is that the ONLY context those men had for a man lying with another man as though he were woman, was that of temple prostitution and I can see why they would have a problem with that. They had no understanding of homosexuality in modern terms, so why try and apply what they were talking about to what we are talking about.

  128. I’ve never had sex with a man as though I was a woman. I’ve only had manly sex with other men. So I still don’t see how that rule applies. The only way you can violate that rule is if you wear a dress while you do it.

  129. Wow, what planet do you live on? Really? The truth hurts, I know it does and the Bible is full of truth; however, the sinner who is unwilling to repent from any type of sin “including sexual immorality” will not inherit the kingdom of God. You can argue and write and say all you want, but the Word of God will stand test of time forever! The great news is we still have time to repent from our sinful nature but that will also eventually end and then you will have to answer to God. May you come to know God and surrender your heart to Him before its too late.

  130. Then please explain to me what Bible or false reading are you basing your facts on? It seems to me that you should be reading more non-fiction material and less second hand information. Most people only read what they want to read to satisfy their desires not seeking to know the real truth found in Christ.

  131. “Most people only read what they want to read to satisfy their desires not seeking to know the real truth found in Christ.”

    I think you’ve hit the nail on the head.

  132. “For Generations Man has been trying to whitewash sin ”

    Funny… they also look for groups to marginalize.

  133. judson, the 9:15am post this is not me saying that Paul did not accept homosexuality – it is pro-gay bible experts. The fact that homosexuals have a particular orientation is irrelavent. It is not dependent on man’s understanding. God is omniscient and God says homosexual acts are always immoral. Besides there are many examples from the ancients of homosexual marriage and the idea that it might have a biological basis.Some advocates for homosexual sex try to persuade others that homosexuality today is unlike homosexuality in ancient times because the ancients did not conceive of homosexual relationships as being loving, mutual, and non-exploitive. Whereas today, loving, non-exploitive homosexual relationship models of marriage are known. If the Jews and Christians would have understood homosexuality in such ‘modern’ terms they somehow would have allowed it.
    To me this smacks of temporal arrogance and is ridiculous on its face. Do they think the ancient’s were incapable of conceiving of such relationships? Nor does it seem to take into account that it is God who inspired the writings of Scripture not man. God’s rules are based on God’s omniscience and not man’s very limited knowledge and reasoning.
    Furthermore, there are numerous examples of ancient writers expressing their descriptions of homosexual relationships. Below are a few examples; they are taken from Robert Gagnon’s book “The Bible and Homosexual Practice” and also from on-line articles on his website:
    In Plato’s play Symposium (well known in the 1st century) the character Aristophanes refers to men who are lovers of males as those ‘who continue with one another throughout life. . . . desiring to join together and to be fused into a single entity with his beloved and to become one person from two’. Pausanias (another character), who was a lover of Agathon similarly emphasizes that lovers who love rightly ‘are prepared to love in the expectation that they will be with them all their life and will share their lives in common,’ ‘as if having been fused into a single entity with’ the soul of the beloved. Pausanias goes on to say: Men who love males ‘are not inclined by nature toward marriage and the procreation of children, yet are compelled to do so by the law or custom with the result that two joined males ‘live their lives out with one another unmarried’
    In Plutarch’s Dialogue on Love (late 1st – early 2nd century BC) Protogenes argues that man-male love is superior, not because it is more hedonistic but because, instead of having ‘as a net result the reaping of the fruits of pleasure, it ‘comes through friendship to the end and goal of virtue’. The character Daphnaeus in this work, defending the superiority of male-female love, concedes that homosexual relationships are not necessarily exploitative, for ‘sexual intercourse that is contrary to nature with males does not do away with, nor damage, a lover’s kindness [or: amorous goodwill]”
    The satirist Juvenal (early 2nd c. BC; Satire 2): effeminate men who willingly commit themselves as ‘brides’ to another man. For example, Gracchus, ‘a man renowned for his family background and his wealth,’ became the ‘bride’ to a common cornet-player and signed semi-official documents (Satire 2.119, 125, 129).
    Lucian of Samosata (mid-2nd c. BC.) tells of two rich women who regard themselves as married, the masculine Megilla of Lesbos and her ‘wife’ Demonassa the Corinthian (Dialogues of the Courtesans 5).
    Ptolemy of Alexandria (2nd c. BC) refers to manly women born under a certain constellation who are ‘lustful for sexual relations contrary to nature’ and take the active sexual role with women whom they sometimes call their ‘lawful wives’ (Tetrabiblos 3.14; §171-72).
    Several rabbinic texts forbid marriage of a man to a man; one referring to Egyptian practices even forbids marriage of a woman to a woman (Sifra on Lev 18:3)
    Clement of Alexandria likewise referred to ‘women … contrary to nature … marrying women’ (Paidagōgos
    A lengthy defense of the love of boys appears in the work 3rd century A.D. Affairs of the Heart. Within it a debate takes place over whether love of women or love of boys is superior. One of the characters says “only the male love is a noble injunction of a wisdom-loving soul”. Also, “love of boys requires the exercise of reason (which animals lack)…Lions do not so love because they are also not philosophers… But for men practical wisdom coupled with scientific knowledge, from experimenting many times, having chosen what is most noble, the most steadfast (viz. the love between males)”
    These ancient texts support the idea that non-exploitive, same-sex relationships were conceived by the ancients, and undercut the pro-homosexual assertions that exploitive homosexual relationships were the only examples available to the Jews and early Christians. The Jews/Christians had available examples and ideas describing non-exploitive same sex relationships. Yet active homosexuality was rejected as wrong not because of exploitive relationships but because it goes against God’s created intent for the sexes.

  134. You say “that the ONLY context those men had for a man lying with another man as though he were woman, was that of temple prostitution “.

    Sorry, I don’t buy that. Men have been laying with other men in a sexual way for a long time and most of it had nothing to do with temple prostitution.

    And like I said arsenkoitai was clearly used in other contexts (e.g pederastry, anal sex with a woman) by the ancients so cult-prostituion is not is only use.

  135. “The only way you can violate that rule is if you wear a dress while you do it.”

    Oh, God what a narrow understanding you have of sex. You expect me to belive that? Where are the Jewish commentaries of the time saying that homosexual sex is OK if the man dosn’t wear females clothes? There are many Jewish commentaries from the time on proper/improper sex . If your narrow interpretaion is correct show me where it is OK by Jewish standards.

  136. look
    I’m not commenting on your comment here so stand easy.
    I think the religion news service people have some technical issues to work out.

    It is so odd to me that someone would call themselves gay and Christian.
    So that’s what’s happened I guess and this person is surprised by the reactions.

    If he would have said something like :” I pray for 14 hours a day – what am I doing wrong?”
    Or if he said something like :” I give 80% of my money to the poor – is this ok?”

    Well no one could find fault that type of activity. But to try to get approval for and to justify a homosexual lifestyle while claiming to belong to Christ is absurd.
    Anyone who argues with his point of view, in an attempt to bring him to his senses, is clearly wasting their time.

    When Christ brings it to his attention, and He may already have, and if being obedient to Him, he will clearly give up this way of living.

    There are 12 step programs available for this type of addiction. They are Christ / bible centered.

    Others have heard Jesus on this and are doing something about it.
    Thank you.

  137. look
    I’m not commenting on your comment here so stand easy.
    I think the religion news service people have some technical issues to work out.

    It is so odd to me that someone would call themselves gay and Christian.
    So that’s what’s happened I guess and this person is surprised by the reactions.

    If he would have said something like :” I pray for 14 hours a day – what am I doing wrong?”
    Or if he said something like :” I give 80% of my money to the poor – is this ok?”

    Well no one could find fault that type of activity. But to try to get approval for and to justify a homosexual lifestyle while claiming to belong to Christ is absurd.
    Anyone who argues with his point of view, in an attempt to bring him to his senses, is clearly wasting their time.

    When Christ brings it to his attention, and He may already have, and if being obedient to Him, he will clearly give up this way of living.

    There are 12 step programs available for this type of addiction. They are Christ / bible centered.

    Others have heard Jesus on this and are doing something about it.

  138. look
    I’m not commenting on your comment here so stand easy.
    I think the religion news service people have some technical issues to work out.

    It is so odd to me that someone would call themselves gay and Christian.
    So that’s what’s happened I guess and this person is surprised by the reactions.

    If he would have said something like :” I pray for 14 hours a day – what am I doing wrong?”
    Or if he said something like :” I give 80% of my money to the poor – is this ok?”

    Well no one could find fault that type of activity. But to try to get approval for and to justify a homosexual lifestyle while claiming to belong to Christ is absurd.
    Anyone who argues with his point of view, in an attempt to bring him to his senses, is clearly wasting their time.

    When Christ brings it to his attention, and He may already have, and if being obedient to Him, he will clearly give up this way of living.

    There are 12 step programs available for this type of addiction. They are Christ / bible centered.

    Others have heard Jesus on this and are doing something about it.

  139. yo homo dude
    you have no science to back up your pov.
    so what you do have is a junior high mentality that comes across as hate towards those who don’t share your pov, therefore you are as bad as a school yard bully
    pov: point of view

  140. Why anybody would call sexual orientation an addiction is beyond me.

    Coming from the position of having worked in a number of research labs from the time I was in high school, I find you to be completely ignorant.

    I don’t think you realize the magnitude of the differences between us. You lack intelligence and apparently education.

    Yours is a condition of choice. I was simply born intelligent and gay.

  141. I actually have degrees in math and science. I have been working in biophysics/neuroanatomy labs since I was in high school.

    I have other degrees as well. From a highly ranked institution.

    So like DUDE … learn how to read ANYTHING. DUDE.

  142. Hate? Criticizing sutpidity is not hate.

    You =/= your beliefs. Beliefs are MEANT to be criticised and picked apart.

    If people cling to a belief in the face of scientific information then their opinion is irrelevant and society should reject it and them.

    Someone that cannot accept science is not only a fool, but a defective one.

    We are not talking about skin color or about handedness. This isn’t dyslexia or an above average IQ. We are talking about beliefs. Imaginary friends. Presumptions made with no evidence to support a logical conclusion.

    These are things people SHOULD be criticized for. You were not born Christian, you and those around you brainwashed you into that existence.

  143. Its not a POV. Its Math. learn it. Idiot.

    And get out of the way of the rest of humanity.

  144. Aww. You have imaginary friends. That’s cute.
    For a five year old.

  145. Show anyone the science behind your point of view. I can show you science behind the bible…but I might not. However you can read it. The truth is available..No science to back up your atheistic point of view…just name calling and a junior high mentality. You are like a school yard bully.
    You can’t argue just ridicule.

  146. judson, the phrase “as with a woman” (literally, “the lyings of a woman”) refers to a man lying with another male in a sexual manner not merely lying alongside to rest, without sexual intent; but lying with another to perform a sexual act. It means the passive or penetrated partner, not merely dressing as a woman as you so narrowly want it to mean. Numbers 31:17 refers t to “every woman who knows a man by lying with a male” (literally, “lying of a male”). Here the addition “by lying with a male” simply denotes that the “knowing” here is to be understood in a sexual sense involving intercourse. Show me in Scripture or extra-biblical writings of the time where “as with a woman” means dressed as a woman.
    My provided interpretation readily answers all the questions I have asked you that you cannot answer and explains the extra-biblical evidence I provided. It provides a consistent and whole understanding you cannot provide with your narrow interpretation. Please come to the Truth.

  147. Tell that to atheists and people of various religions who have had near death experiences and encountered a being of light. They can also readily described the activity occurring around them in the hospital after they have gone brain dead.Ask them what they think of your hubris.

  148. Your homosexuality is either a choice, in which case we feel that the Bible says it is an inappropriate one; or it is a birth defect, in which case we should be raising money to find a cure. If you ignore all the negative references to it in the Bible, letss talk about the positive ones… Oops, there are none!

  149. “Let’s use biology, physiology, and medical evidence to argue that sexual activity between people of the same sex is disordered.”

    What biology would that be? All the biology I’ve read states that homosexuality occurs in nature.

    What physiology would that be? All the physiology I’ve read says that the attraction to the same sex is explainable by natural processes…. it’s what you do with that attraction that bothers some.

    What medical evidence would that be? All the medical evidence I’ve seen suggests that there is a stigma to being treated for certain diseases such as AIDS, and that is why the rates of such said diseases are higher.

    Perhaps you know something I don’t Laurie. If you do, please share, I’m quite curious. Until then, I’ll keep supporting civil rights.

    P.S. God has nothing to do with it. You might think he does, but fictional deities don’t scare me.
    big·ot [big-uht] Show IPA
    a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.
    Go ahead and hate gay people all you want. I can tolerate that that. I’ll tolerate your ability to spew a horrible representation of the Christian religion. I won’t tolerate the notion that you feel that it is your duty to make everyone else live by your holy book’s rules.

  150. You said homosexuality is a natural occurrence, well so is incest in different species, so is cannabalism-

    Yeah that may be true. We do see that in humans too. But in those cases, harm is done to one of the individuals. Homosexuality harms no one.

    does that mean natural is normal and good for human beings because of what different species do?

    See above.

    Homosexuality is not a designed divine union….The beginning if time in the Book of Genesis GOD designed.

    Fictional stories don’t have any bearing on reality.

    For a Man shall leave his Mother and Father and cleave to his wife and the two shall be one flesh…Jesus repeated those words in Matthew 19. If someone chooses for there own free will to engage in this kind of relationship that is between you and GOD,

    Since we’re using a antiquated book to make justifications for things, I trust you are anti-divorce then and rally just as hard for no divorce as you do no homosexual marriage. Matthew 19:9-I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” See ya at the next anti-divorce rally.

    however they have no right to re-define what marriage is and enact laws trying to force other’s to accept this type of lifestyle.

    Marriage is and always has been a civil contract. If “God” truly defined it, then please explain things like the Fujian Dynasty in China where men married men and women married women. If “God” has a problem with two dudes shacking up, let him tell me, not you. “The safest way to assure you’ve built God in your own image is when he hates exactly the same people you do”-Anne Lemott

  151. your question why is homosexuality a naturally occurring event…you and i were born in sin thats why. the only way to stop is by the Holy Ghost and the only way to get the Holy Ghost is to be born again by the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ. sin is sin be it homosexuality or muder or adultery. Gods word condemns it so it doesn’t matter if you and me do or not. it only matter if you accept Jesus Christ as the virgin born Son of God that was crucified in our place for all sin and all men . He died that we would not have to. He rose the third day to defeat that death penalty…Homosexuality just like any other sin will keep you out of Heaven. you keep refering to christians as bigots…why God said it we just repeat what He says…you can choos what ever you like but know this if you choose sin/homosexuality over Jesus you will regret it one day…His words Not mine..He is the creator and i tend to believe what He says.

  152. its either comical or tragic that sin is up for man to decide
    Man doesn’t get to choose what’s sin and what isn’t
    i don’t care if all americans thought homosexuality wasn’t a sin – its still a sin
    God decided what sin is not some poll on a social media website etc – the bible has clearly said that Gods ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts – its obvious here that man may not think its sin but God still does !!!

    some can say well i dont believe in God yeah that doesnt nullify God though
    many souls in hell didnt believe in God and well it didnt work out for them did it?

  153. i also find it amusing if one tells a gay marriage supporter that God hates homosexuality – break out the bigot accusation except have many even looked up the definition or simply pulled a copycat of someone else – bigotry is hating someone for not agreeing with your views um hello !!!! bigotry most certainly can and come from the other side whether they admit or not –
    but its even more absurd to start trying to use the bible – i said try to – Judge not … ok but it may no be my place to judge but they most certainly will be judged

    then there is the notion that God is love -God is loving but God isnt aphrodite lol – yeah thats really redfining God to say hes love and thats it – as if God actually matters to majority of the straight people fighting here – yeah i said straight people -its beyond me why most of the people i get in arguments over gay marriage are not even gay themselves !! um kind of makes the idea of well gay marriage wont affect me less credible -no it wont affect me but um ditto it wont affect them either lol

  154. Gods truth is that homosexuality is a sin and real christians agree
    the bible says judge them by their fruits
    if i hear any self proclaiming christian ever condone such a sinful behavior – im immediately skeptical
    being a christian is a verb to not a noun

    one can say that being a homosexual isnt a sin – ok but homosexuals unless celibate commit the very ungodly act of homosexuality which is the sin

    we are all sinners
    christ died for us

    but there is a devil who comes to rob kill steal and destroy and will any means possible to do it

    people can laugh all they want but the devil geez its so obvious he is behind the push for gay marriage – its mocks Gods design for marriage – lucifer is trying to mask or camoflauge it love and acceptance which is utter nonsense – i truly believe satan is deceiving gay people with this whole love idea – and well is winning for the moment – the devil wants to make sure that all perish and none have everlasting life –

    God doesnt hate gay people but never ever ever think for a fraction of a second he loves or accepts their homosexuality – ever !!

  155. how can gay marriage be a civil right when marriage itself is not a right – no one has the right to get married – um marriage in this country has never been a right

  156. um we live in what is called the western civilization and times have not changed much in that part of the world – we may not have polygamy here king david did not live in the united states let alone western civilization – polygamy back then and in that part of the world was not frowned upon – cant use our view now and put it on them then – after the fact judgement or whatever just doesn’t work

  157. When you ask society as whole to accept something as “normal” that my faith says is not, then YOU are infringing upon my rights. And you say you ONLY want your rights, but it never stops there. Case in point is the couple who owns a wedding cake business being FORCED to either make a cake for a homosexual couple or pay huge fines for not doing so. They are a Christian couple who believes that homosexual marriage is wrong. They should have the right to refuse to participate in a homosexual marriage, but a homosexual couple sued and the court is FORCING them to either compromise their religious beliefs or pay the price and/or risk losing their business license. So, you tell me how this is NOT infringing upon OUR rights to OUR religious beliefs?

  158. All that we have, all that God has given us, our time, money, friends, possessions, gender, etc is sacred in God’s eyes. When we take these and make them common place, or abuse them, or use them as they are not intended, we make them profane.
    Be wise in the use of all that has been given, and then we are living as was intended…holding to the sacred, and honouring God in it all.

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