Bob Jones University President Bob Jones III appears on CNN's Larry King Live in Washington on March 3, 2000. Photo courtesy of REUTERS *Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-BOBJONES-GAYS, originally transmitted on March 23, 2015.

Bob Jones III apologizes for stone-the-gays remarks

Bob Jones University President Bob Jones III appears on CNN's Larry King Live in Washington on March 3, 2000. Photo courtesy of REUTERS *Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-BOBJONES-GAYS, originally transmitted on March 23, 2015.

Bob Jones University President Bob Jones III appears on CNN's Larry King Live in Washington on March 3, 2000. Photo courtesy of REUTERS
*Editors: This photo may only be republished with RNS-BOBJONES-GAYS, originally transmitted on March 23, 2015.

 This image is available for web and print publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

(RNS) The former president of Bob Jones University, one of the nation's bastions of Christian fundamentalism, has apologized for comments he made in 1980 that gays and lesbians should be stoned to death.

Bob Jones III, who stepped down as BJU president in 2005, made the original remarks while visiting Jimmy Carter's White House, delivering a petition with 70,000 signatures opposing greater legal protections for gays and lesbians.

"I'm sure this will be greatly misquoted," Jones said at the time. "But it would not be a bad idea to bring the swift justice today that was brought in Israel's day against murder and rape and homosexuality. I guarantee it would solve the problem post-haste if homosexuals were stoned, if murderers were immediately killed as the Bible commands."

In a statement issued by the university on Saturday (March 21), Jones called his earlier comments "inflammatory" and "reckless."

“Upon now reading these long-forgotten words, they seem to me as words belonging to a total stranger -- were my name not attached," he wrote. "I cannot erase them, but wish I could, because they do not represent the belief of my heart or the content of my preaching. Neither before, nor since, that event in 1980 have I ever advocated the stoning of sinners."

Jones led the Greenville, S.C., university founded by his grandfather from 1971 to 2005. He remains chancellor as leadership of the school's presidency has been assumed for the first time outside the Jones family. For many, Jones was the unrepentant public face of a strict interpretation of Christianity that denounced homosexuality and defended a ban on interracial dating all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Yet he remained a leading figure in conservative politics. During the 2000 presidential campaign, then-candidate George W. Bush was roundly criticized for a campaign stop at the campus. The school dropped its ban on interracial dating later that year.

Jones' apology was prompted by another petition, this time delivered by a group called BJUnity, an informal network of LGBT university alumni and their supporters. The petition on asked Jones to recant his 1980 comments, and received nearly 2,000 signatures.

"The Bible I love, preach, and try to practice, does not present today the stoning of sinners as God’s way. Its message is the good news that Christ Jesus was condemned on behalf of sinners to rescue all of us from condemnation and judgment by His willing sacrifice, for He was made sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him," Jones said.

"I apologize for the reflection those remarks bring upon Jesus Christ, Whom I love; Bob Jones University, which I have loved and served; and my own personal testimony.”

In a statement, BJUnity accepted Jones' apology.

"We are grateful that Bob Jones III has taken responsibility for these words; words that have caused deep harm for many more people than any of us knows," the group said. "This means a lot to us because it represents the beginning of a change in the rhetoric and conversation."



  1. What a gutless, double-talking, sorry-I-gave-God’s-opinion “politician.” Why do we get more liberal as we get older?!

  2. Why demand anyone apologize for something said 35 years ago ? No gays were stoned after Jones’ statement, so why is this recant so important? Homosexual acts are still sinful, and why should we care what the gays think of that fact?

  3. The reason he should have apologized, Phil, is because those ignorant remarks were made in an environment, which hasn’t changed that much over 30 years. Like yourself, many people at the school have maintained their homophobic beliefs, which are damaging to the students and often to their own gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender children. Unfortunately, many people there look up to Bob Jones III and he has continued to preach these teachings, despite their inaccuracy and the damage they do to human beings – whether or not he ever espoused stoning people to a bloody, barbaric death again or not. He and many others at the school have maintained a culture of oppression towards LGBT people that continues to this day.This apology isn’t really complete, as it omits any mention of the gay people he’s long harmed all together. But it’s a start.

  4. Why?

    Because while the statement is 30+ years old, the mentality behind that statement continues at the school — where LGBTQ students are isolated to the point where they cannot even confide in each other without fear of being expelled and/or forced into counseling.

    A chapel emphasis on same-sex attraction/homosexuality in Nov 2013 characterized gay people as “drug-saturated”, “chronically dissatisfied” 24-7 who can’t maintain a normal live that isn’t a round-the-clock party.

    Other chapel messages have told these vulnerable students that they can only look forward to live that includes pedophilia, disease, and eventual death if not suicide.

    BJU completely ignores alternate interpretations of the Bible, much less things like the APA, and the AMA. This means a lopsided conversation that is harmful to LGBTQ students and *causes* the harm they so often erroneously blame on being gay.

  5. Oh, Bob. Isn’t taqiyya for Muslims? The Bible says “Thou shalt not bear false witness,” even if it is convenient for you to do so.

    As the comments above from Phil and James indicate (not to mention the comments yet to come from Art Deco, Doc Anthony, et al), Bob’s original view isn’t exactly unheard of among Christians. It’s just rare for them to publicly admit it under their real names. RNS is essentially a “moderate/progressive” Christian site, yet all of the Christians in its comments threads are right-wing. Shouldn’t that tell us something about Christianity’s true nature?

    We must learn to recognize and deal with Christianity as it is, rather than pretending it is what we want it to be. Jehovah is not a queer ally and the Bible is not a PFLAG pamphlet. Pressuring people like Bob Jones III to pretend otherwise only forces the religion’s true fascist nature to hide down under the surface, where it will fester and then burst forth when we least expect it…

  6. Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told.
    Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right.

    gods and religions are just primitive nonsense.
    The world will be much better once these fables are abandoned.

  7. Phil,

    We get more ‘liberal’ because we get wiser.
    Nonsense like this is very unwise:

    “The only cure for homosexuals is that they be put to death”
    – Pastor Robbie Galaty, Tennessee Megachurch, Sept 4, 2014

    In fact, to defend it is to defend stupidity, ignorance and primitive fables.

  8. In the 1930s and 1940s special camps were set up to rid the world of homosexuals. They also got rid of Jews, gypsies and anyone who disagreed. The world was not a better place for those camps, yet some of us haven’t obviously haven’t learnt that lesson of history.

  9. I’d like to call attention to the fact that BJUnity is in fact a not-for-profit organization incorporated in the State of New York in 2012.

    Jeffrey Hoffman
    Executive Director

  10. Kevin Eckstrom,oo have you read the report of the investigation of the sexual harassment and sexual misconduct preformed by G R A C E (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment) for Bob Jones University? GRACE was approached in January 2013 to investigate and report. However, when things got too hot, Bob Jones U. fired GRACE then later reinstated them. The final report was delayed then finally the entire report was published in December of 2014.

    It is simple to go on line and read the report, Just type in GRACE.

  11. Sorry, I wondered where those “oo” went to.

  12. Goofy comment. Morality is nowhere near doing what you are told, regardless what is right.

    There is a different set of moral rules for the atheist/irreligious, yes, but that community designs morality around their shifting attitudes as to what they think is right or wrong at the moment.

    Then there is the morality of the religious, a morality based on the greater good, a standard that is sometimes rigid, but always right.

    Twenty years from now, the fashion may be to put the gays back in the closet because all of these “rights” they have been given has not worked out as we thought. Yet, the Church will still promote “love the sinner, hate the sin”.

    But, for now, America will promote gay marriage, adoptions, legalized drug use, abortion, euthanasia, and pornography. Of course, these are the most noble of causes……and legalizing them gives them the cachet of moral behavior.
    So how can we demonize people when they become drug addicted baby killers who kill their…

  13. Grandparents because they got sick yesterday?

  14. Sure Pan, I’ll reply. No problemo.

    35 years ago, Bob Jones III mis-applied a Bible verse (which, by the way, he took in **isolation** from other Bible verses dealing with homosexual behavior) and thus proposed something seriously hurtful and wrong.

    But Jones has apparently matured, not only in age but in Biblical understanding, and he saw what he did wrong (with a little nudge from BJUnity), and he now understands his need to repent and apologize.

    So he correctly apologized, and he also accurately explained his apology, keeping everything right in line with the Scriptures.

    The group BJUnity publicly accepted the apology, so as I see it, the deal is done. No stress. Meanwhile, Pan says:

    “Jehovah is not a queer ally and the Bible is not a PFLAG pamphlet.”

    Wow, Pan. Excellent soundbite, dude. I didn’t think you had it in you. May I steal it for future vicious anti-gay posts?

  15. @James Carr,

    “Then there is the morality of the religious, a morality based on the greater good….sometimes rigid, but always right.”

    Oh, really?


    “If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and SEIZING HIS PENIS, you shall cut off her hand; show no pity.” – DEUT. 25:11

    Always right? Pure nonsense.

    Like I said:

    Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told.
    Religion is doing what you are told, no matter what is right.

  16. Stop citing Old Testament laws as any kind of evidence that supports your argument. The Mosaic laws are ancient, extreme laws, that were most likely necessary to introduce a barbaric, ignorant world to the rudiments of a moral standard. By the time of Jesus, the world was ready for the heart of the laws and not the literal letter of the law.

    Hand picking quotes out of the Bible is easy…..understanding the Bible as a whole is the part that requires some intelligence.

  17. @James Carr,

    “Stop citing Old Testament laws”

    Okay – how about this garbage instead?


    “And why do you break the command of God
    for the sake of your tradition? …. ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ ” (Matthew 15:3)

    “I shall kill her children with Death” – Jesus (REV. 2:23)

    “Eat of my body” and “Be baptized and believe” or “Be condemned to Hell” – Jesus (John 6:53-54) (Mark 16:16).

    “Hate your parents…hate your life” – Jesus (Luke 14:26)

    “Hand picking quotes out of the Bible is easy…” – James Carr

    Yes it certainly is – apparently you allow yourself to throw out thousands of quotes you don’t like! LOL!

    “Slaves, be subject to your masters…even the perverse” (1 Peter 2:18)

  18. I think we should give credit where credit is due. A man who is big enough to admit that what he said so long ago is wrong, and to apologize for it, deserves respect for his change of heart.

    Of course, it is right to note that the verses in the Bible that are used to justify hatred and cruelty are still there, but it is also right to note that most Christians have moved beyond many of them.

  19. James Carr,

    “Stop citing Old Testament laws as any kind of evidence that supports your argument….”

    You are the one who said “Religious morality is always right!” LOL!
    Why are you changing your tune and running away from the barbaric OLD Testament? I thought it was Always right?

    I’m delighted to hear that you do not follow the 10 commandments. LOL!

    I guess that means you’ll be going to hell even though you pretended all these years to be religious.

  20. Dear Mr Carr

    Do you know many unbelievers personally? If so, are they really as bad as that? Do they not have normal human feelings for family and community? Is it really true that jails are filled with unbelievers? Is it true that the murder rate in Alaska or Louisiana is much less than that in Denmark or Sweden?

    I know several complete atheists and their personal behaviour seems to be at a high level. Their kids turned out fine.

  21. Jesus as “Mafia Godfather”? Really?

    Now that’s what they call **creative writing**, Max.

    Truly you are the most imaginative atheist that I have ever run across. Sincere kudos!

    But, ummm….Wouldn’t it be less stressful on you to simply repent already, and hook up with the real Jesus, so that your creative imagination doesn’t accidentally get burned up to Crispy Critters in eternal HELL-FIRE?

  22. NOT the kind of response I was looking for, Doc.

    I’m going to need you to chime in with something about how ol’ Bob III is selling out to the “Lavender Mafia” and encouraging the “Gay Mess.” That’s what you’re here for. Thanks in advance.

  23. Hey Brother Max, I thought you would respond to my comments.

  24. I know plenty nonbelievers, and they are good people as a rule…like we all are. Religion is not discussed because of its obvious spark of opinions, like politics.

    Most atheists were raised in religious families and their morals stem from that upbringing, so I’ve no idea how the future generations will be watered down morally. Society’s laws are making legal what has been historically offensive, and for atheists to believe that no higher authority than human desire is necessary for morality, then I worry.

    Its the nonbelievers that spend their life demeaning religion and its foundational goodness that I find terribly offensive. They can’t see God, so he’s a myth……or the Gospels are not historical accounts, yet Josephus and Pliny are. This type is evil, cunning, and have dreams of eliminating religion as a whole because THEY are incapable of rationality.

  25. Hey Oscar,

    How interesting that you left out that Christian Pastors were the first to be entered into those camps.

    And as it looks today from the LGBT hordes, their ubiquitously anti-Christian support groups, that Christians are indeed targeted for exclusion from society by the LGBT fanatics, if that could be accomplished quickly.

    Like they said back in Sodom in Lot’s day: “We’ll treat you worse then them” (the angels to be same-gender raped).

  26. Jones III apologized and repented.

    Done deal. He was simply mistaken in theological view. And still, there is not one shred of acceptance of homosexuality and no such thing as same gender marriage anywhere in the Bible. Old OR New Testament. Let LGBT’s continue to create their own new religion and do what they wilteth there.

    Jones III, nor any other Christian, has to bow, scrape, kowtow or show obeisance to the rainbow idol and its fanatical worshipers. And without doubt, no need to grovel for acceptance of the cement-minded atheist/secularist crowd need apply.

  27. Mr. Carr,

    Another fantastic post.

    Hit the nail on the head to the wood on the first attempt.

    It has always fascinated me that self-described “freethinkers” aren’t.

  28. Atheist Max . . .

    or should I say: Scaramouche, Scaramouche, can you do the fandango??!!

    Your comedy routine is running thin.

    Why not troll Christian Forums (.com) where there, the atheists and gay activists rule supreme. There you can bash and bash Christians with abandon and not have one challenge to the idiocy of your platform.

    What wonders await you in hate land.

  29. Bob Jones is a piece of mendacious crap. The man delivered his half hearted apology while protesting the inclusion of sexual orientation to the civil rights act. He is a bigot and always has been. There is not an honest bone in his body.

    He still wants gays attacked under color of law. This story is only half true for omitting that part.

    Why must Christians be such obvious liars?

  30. He delivered his “apology” while petitioning to attack the rights of gays. Bob Jones is full of crap.

  31. Plenty of Christians have accepted gay people and marriage equality and no bowing and scraping was needed. Just a little love, compassion and common sense.

    It’s also always quite entertaining to see a fundamentalist refer to secular people as “cement minded” given that fundamentalism means by definition that one’s beliefs are stricken in concrete, unmovable, even when evidence is presented to prove those beliefs invalid. Not to mention inhuman, intolerant and toxic.

  32. No they weren’t. Churches were still running and even thriving in the reactionary climate.

  33. I don’t see any LGBT hordes. Maybe you need some rest.

  34. Be Brave, be brave we won’t let any of those queer folks hurt you!

  35. “But, for now, America will promote gay marriage, adoptions, legalized drug use, abortion, euthanasia, and pornography”

    Because your arbitrary rules allegedly concerning morality do not form the basis of a society which values civil liberties, religious freedom, democratic principles, free speech and the dignity of human life.

    There is no such thing as religious morality. All acts are permitted if you can claim God permits them. Ends always justify the means if you can find an excuse in scripture. Consideration of fellow human beings and the potential harm of one’s actions to others, comes a distant second to outsourcing opinions to unquestioned authority figures.

    Your christian morality is self-serving and amoral. One acts in order to curry divine favor or avoid divine punishment. Pure self-interest.

    Morality is acting in light of how your actions affect others, not how it affects one’s self.

  36. You have never met an atheist in person or never bothered to ask them what they believe. You are simply regurgitating what your pastor tells about atheists, not actually saying anything truthful about them.

    What your post tells me is that you do not respect religious beliefs different from your own nor make efforts to understand them.

  37. He did nothing of the sort. He just danced a little two-step in public


    “Jones made the comment while attending a meeting at the White House with other fundamentalist leaders to deliver a petition to protest extending the protections of the Civil Rights Act to homosexuals.

    Bob Jones can —- himself and the horse he rode in on.

  38. James, the reason is that his name and the name of the university are the same. Once the issue of his remarks in 1980 came up, then assuming he has since repented of those remarks, the university obviously felt he had an obligation to verbalize that repentance.

  39. I hate to burst your bubble, Larry, but wherever human beings congregate, liars may be found. It is probably the most common human sin.

  40. Well, Larry, I’m not the most trusting soul in the world, so yeah, I think that’s right.

    But let’s get back to you….who zeroes in on Christians who lie, as though the rest of the world were as pure as the driven snow.

    Do you honestly believe that?

  41. Hm….Christian forums dot com……where Christians are bashed by the usual suspects?

    Maybe I’ll pay that place a visit……

    My favorite opponents are those who are overconfident in their biblical skepticism……puncturing pomposity can be fun.

  42. I’m glad I’m not in the public eye where I would be asked to apologize publicly for hurtful things I may have said in my past. If I was, I would hope to be as forthcoming and contrite as Dr. Jones. Often, like Dr. Jones, we as Christians look to the scripture to justify our biases, our bigotries and our self-righteousnesses instead of looking to the scripture to accept the reproof it provides for our own lives and our own journeys. Why are the sins of others so easy to identify and why are we so quick to pass sentence?

    “What embitters the world is not an excess of criticism, but an absence of self-criticism. -GK Chesterton

  43. @Be Brave,

    “What wonders await you in hate land.”

    I hate nobody.
    But your imaginary God is up to lots of hatred and I’m just making note of it:

    “..we command you…in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ…keep away from anyone who is NOT in accord with the tradition you received from us.”
    (2 Thessalonians 3:6)

    Inhale the full implications
    of being commanded ‘in the name of the Lord’ TO JUDGE people
    in this way.

    The next step is easy:

    “Execute them” – Jesus (Luke 19:27)

    Your religion is an abomination to humanity.

  44. “wherever human beings congregate, liars may be found.”

    Yes. And religion encourages the lying to continue as if it were a virtue.

    “blessed are those who believe but who have not seen.”

    Yes. Blessed are the suckers who fall for the con game called eternal life.
    Worse than embarrassing for any grown up to believe such drivel. And no grown person would accept it in other area of life. Yet Religion insists that such nonsense is a virtue!

    Despicable and sinister. Religion is nonsense.

  45. @James Carr,

    “Its the nonbelievers that spend their life demeaning religion and its foundational goodness…”

    What goodness is in religion?
    You call it good? To behead innocent people? Burning people alive in cages?

    If Religious people would stop shoving this nonsense on the rest of us maybe we could take a break.


    Follow Jesus?

    “Hate them” – Jesus (Luke 14:26)

    “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.” – Jesus (Luke 14:26)

    This is disgraceful. It is an assault on humanity to think that little children are being taught this criminal nonsense.

    But you have the right to believe it – just keep it out of my laws!

  46. Larry and Max…your arguments are always the same. We will never agree on anything because I’ve heard it all before and your outlook is completely out of synch with logic.

  47. James Carr,

    If you cannot prove that God is real, then your God is man made.
    Simple as that.

    And since your god is man made it is a secular creation – no different from any other secular endeavor.

    Either prove your god is real or forget it. You lost your arguments.

  48. Dear Atheist Max, I LOVE YOU! I love your frankness and your honesty. It is so refreshing to see someone speaking so clearly about these sacred cows [pun intended], you are alright man and if more people spoke up maybe human beings would not be so doomed. Keep it up. Bytheway dear Jack, um, get a clue. Do you have no evidence at all of a god, Jesus or whatever?

  49. ‘Atheist Max, I LOVE YOU!’
    Atheist Max is the reason I check these comment sections. AMAX and Great God Pan are my favorites for cutting down the bs from the holy rollers.

  50. Poor Cathy,
    You can sit at their lunch table since no one else wants to, go ahead….

  51. James, that’s not a bad summary…..the whole issue of Law is complex, though.

    Not that Max knows or cares….like all other tub-thumping propagandists, complexity gets in the way of his agenda.

  52. Note that James did NOT says that all or most nonbelievers spend their life being utter jackasses to others…..he merely said that he finds offensive those who do so.

    James, I’d suggest that those who attack the Bible do so not because its overall standards are too low, but because they are too high. The ultimate motive is to tear down the Book that arouses the very standards their consciences reflect. If Biblical morality were so utterly foreign to what their own consciences were telling them, they wouldn’t get so incensed about the Bible. It would arouse no interest whatsoever in them. The Bible for them is intolerable because it validates what their own consciences have been saying.

    The problem is that even if they managed to burn or destroy every Bible, they would still have their own consciences to contend with. When it comes to conscience, people can run, but they cannot hide. Searing one’s conscience completely is not impossible, but it’s no easy thing,…

  53. Nice try, Atheist Max, but the Bible takes us far beyond abstract philosophical arguments for or against God, and on to very concrete, time-and-space-specific claims about what God did in history.

    And that means they can be explored by historians, archeologists, and other scholars as to veracity. With enough knowledge and the right tools from these disciples, they are capable of being verified or falsified.

    With respect to the Gospels’ claim that Jesus was resurrected, for example, professional historians and others can explore for starters the evidence for or against an empty tomb.

    And no, Max, when it comes to history, you don’t get to make up your own rules. Sorry…..Historians have specific methods of approaching old texts, from Plato’s Dialogues to the four gospels to the Five Books of Moses to the writings of Julius Caesar or anyone else.

  54. You’ll have to forgive Stephen Radditz, who probably grew up all wide-eyed and bushy-tailed in a cloistered home — not reading a single book or hearing a single argument that attacks “sacred cows” of religion.

    The alternative is that Max has created yet another new name for himself on these boards….something he has been caught red-handed doing before. My hunch is that Radditz is a real person, though, because it’s a dangerously stupid thing to make up last names, and even Max isn’t that foolish to do so.

  55. Jack,

    Your God is a secular creation – man made.
    Prove otherwise.

    Do you really think the 100,000 other gods created by humanity were false – but only yours is correct? Don’t call that humble.

  56. Because none of them are the subject of this article.

    Jack, please try to stay focused.

  57. Jack,

    “The Bible for them is intolerable because it validates what their own consciences have been saying.”

    What pretentious nonsense.
    Is that why Muslims reject your Bible? Or Hindus?

    The better question is, why do YOU reject your Bible?

    “Zombies walked for Christ to raise awareness” – (Matthew 27:52)
    “The Priest shall use Bird’s blood and magic chants
    to clean your house of the wicked spirits I sent to you.” – Yahweh
    (Leviticus 14:33-57)
    “Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence…even those who are PERVERSE.” (1 Peter 2:18)

    You say your Bible is secretly special in one tone of voice.
    But you reject it as utter garbage in another tone of voice.

    Atheists like me notice – you are only kidding yourself.
    If you followed your Bible and it actually resulted in a better world instead of the garbage of theocracy – perhaps you might persuade me there was some truth in it.

    Until then, it is dangerous nonsense – and you know it.

  58. Max, you’re dodging the issue, as usual. What’s striking about the Bible is how many times and ways it affirms what our consciences tell us independently of it. If you bothered to study anything of depth and substance about your own past supposed Catholicism, you’d find its rich natural-law tradition hones in on that very point.

    I’m not a Catholic, but am citing this because you claim to have once been a Catholic….although you continually display a profound ignorance of the fundamental ideas that even educated non-Catholics know. This is one reason I have doubts about your story.

    And for those of us who are not Catholic, the tradition of which I speak can be found elsewhere, too. In Protestantism, it’s called common grace or general revelation. In Judaism, it’s the Noahide laws. In Enlightenment thought, it’s what Thomas Jefferson and friends called truths that are “self-evident.

  59. You’re dodging again, Max. To repeat, the Bible and thus Christianity and Judaism make very concrete claims as to what happened in specific times and places. This gives professional scholars, not just Bible scholars, but historians, archeologists, and others, an opportunity to try to verify or falsify such claims.

    That’s why the Bible begins with the words, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” The writer dispenses with abstract philosophical proofs for or against God. He begins with a bold assertion that everything we see comes from a real God……and then, the rest of Scripture is a veritable treasure trove for professional scholars to test its many claims — many of which are, again, specific to time and place and hence are capable of being evaluated.

    If I were you, the last place in the world I’d wish to go is to the world of testing these claims. And thus, you avoid it every time.

  60. Max, the real abomination is the trail of genocide committed by your atheist friends.

    150 million dead, Max…..and counting.

  61. Nonsense, Max, is believing the universe and its operations popped out of nowhere…..just like that…..

    Dang, Martha, a new universe just appeared…….hot damn….there’s a second one…..

  62. On who or what, Larry? Read the preceding succession of posts……

  63. Jack,

    “the universe and its operations popped out of nowhere…..just like that…..”

    I don’t make claims about things I don’t know.

    But for crying out loud how does your version make sense?

    “God and his operations popped out of nowhere…just like that…
    He existed for one purpose only – TO CREATE ME!”

    I have no idea where the universe came from Jack. And neither do you.
    But your claim that Jesus did it is embarrassingly hollow and childish. Show me a god or wise up and understand evidence.

  64. “Your Atheist friends”

    Your Agrarian Cults are not examples of Atheism. The U.S. Constitution is.

    Besides, Why does Christianity have a body count at all?
    800 MILLION people have been slaughtered to force Christianity.

    That is why Jesus has nothing to do with why you are a Christian.

    You were raised Christian. That’s it.
    Your parents were themselves indoctrinated by their parents and so on…

    Eons ago some of YOUR PAGAN RELATIVES were slaughtered by Constantine’s Christian army. They lost a very important battle, indeed.
    And they were forced to indoctrinate their children in a depraved theory.

    You are a Christian because your forebears were
    mercilessly slaughtered by Constantine’s army into submission.

    Nothing to be proud of. You have no ‘relationship’ with Jesus.
    You are continuing to follow that submission today – Constantine’s Christian army slaughtered your pagan family and you simply carry on with Constantine’s dream. Literally!

  65. Jack,

    “the Bible…affirms what our consciences tell us independently of it.”

    Name one thing which proves these insights are NOT man made.

    The claims in the Bible are the cultivation of thousands of stories over thousands of years – some are hits and some are misses.
    You only remember the hits and pretend there are no misses.

    Why should I be surprised if a few of the claims are correct?

    For example: God forbade eating shellfish – it goes bad very quickly once it dies and is particularly poisonous. Did God recommend building refrigerators or explain how bacteria multiplies? No – he just says ‘shellfish is forbidden’.

    That is like saying “jumping off a cliff is bad for you”. DUH.

    The more ancient Aesop’s fables are much more useful than any ‘insights’ of the Bible. You are just trained to be a puppet and defend your Bible as divine.
    If the Bible is divine wisdom, then so is “The Three Little Pigs”.

  66. Max, you’re dodging again…..You’re like a crook being chased by a cop down an alley way and throwing in the cop’s way garbage cans and anything else you can get your hands on in a vain attempt to avoid apprehension. You can almost hear the metal cans crashing on the pavement as Max hurls and then flees.

    Poor Max….

  67. Conventional logic:
    “I have a baseball”
    Prove it!
    “Okay, here it is”.

    Religious logic:
    “I have a baseball”
    Prove it!
    “You Can’t prove that I don’t!!!!!”

    Religion is school yard nonsense.

  68. Again, Max, you’re running…’re asking for abstract proofs that God exists and I’m doing you one better… saying that the Bible goes beyond abstract arguments and into concrete assertions, many of which are capable of being verified or falsified through the tools of professional scholars….assertions that pin it down to times, dates, places, and people. For centuries, eminent people from all walks of life, from statesmen to scientists, lawyers to judges, archeologists to historians have looked at the evidence for the key claims of the Bible, especially regarding Christianity, and found them extraordinarily compelling. If we are to believe you, these people shouldn’t exist….and all intelligent people should be as you are. But down through the ages, the opposite is the case. The most brilliant minds of western civilization, down through the ages, have come to a verdict precisely the opposite of your own….not in spite of the evidence, but because of it.

  69. Atheist Max, if Jesus showed up in your room tonight, you would attribute it to a dream or a hallucination or some yet-to-be-explained scientific phenomenon involving the tricks the brain can play on us. Your base assumption is that everything has a natural cause. By definition, that view rules out miracles even if a miracle happens.

    Yet despite your intolerance, I have pointed you to the fact that there are no known natural explanations to the Biblical claims about Jesus, especially his identity and his resurrection. Once we analyze the Gospels from a historical and textual perspective, we’re left with the liar/lunatic/or Lord trilemma as to his identity and an empty tomb with no natural explanation as to his fate. People have had 20 centuries to puncture the Gospel’s claims on both Jesus’ identity and his fate — and all such attempts have fallen flat. That’s why the Gospel moves on. Find a better explanation for the facts and you will stop it instantly.

  70. To follow up, the entire world’s population did not reach a billion until 1804. Thus to say that 800 million people were killed by religion throughout history is not merely incapable of being proven, but preposterous on its face.

  71. Having reread Max’s post, about 800 million dead through the force of religion, I see it’s even more ridiculous than I had thought, since he’s alleging it was all done specifically by Christianity. Again, the entire world’s population didn’t even reach a billion until 1804.

    Add this to the already-long string of clownish, error-laden postings by the boards’ number-one spammer — Mad Max.

  72. Actually, Max, you’re wrong again…..

    Christianity had spread phenomenally across the Roman Empire long before Constantine was ever born. Cynics who doubt the sincerity of Constantine’s conversion in fact have said that the number-one reason Constantine adopted Christianity was precisely due to its mass popularity. According to this view, Constantine wanted to co-opt Christianity and use it to his political advantage.

    So the notion that the initial spread of Christianity was through war and forced conversion is flatly false. In fact, the initial spread happened despite persecution, including attempts at extermination, by the Roman state for three centuries.

    Christianity’s biggest growth spurts, ie during the first three centuries before Constantine and over the last century, have occurred without any form of forced conversion. Christianity was and is winning the battle of ideas, the battle for the hearts and minds of people around the world.

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