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African Methodists worry about the church that brought them Christianity

Delegates pray after the statement from Bishop Bruce R. Ough about sexuality and the church from the denomination's Council of Bishops on May 18 at the 2016 United Methodist General Conference in Portland, Ore. Photo by Maile Bradfield, courtesy of UMNS

PORTLAND, Ore. (RNS) The Rev. Jerry Kulah has nothing but gratitude for American Methodists.

In 1833, they sent their first missionary to his country, Liberia, which was founded for freed American slaves. Melville B. Cox died four months after he arrived in Africa, but the missionary’s legacy lives on in the United Methodist Church’s fastest-growing region, and in his words to his own church back in North Carolina: “Let a thousand fall before Africa be given up.”

“However,” said Kulah, who is dean of the Gbarnga School of Theology in the capital, Monrovia, “the church has taken on strangely a new direction. People from the country that brought the Gospel to us are now preaching a different Gospel.”

The United Methodist Church — which on Friday (May 20) was wrapping up its quadrennial General Conference — is struggling to maintain the increasingly tenuous bonds that hold together this global denomination of more than 12 million members.

And among the forces tearing at those bonds during 11 days of meetings at the Oregon Convention Center in Portland, Ore., were arguments over the ordination of LGBT United Methodists and whether to allow clergy to perform same-sex marriages — which are now legal in America and accepted by a growing share of its citizens.

“It’s mind-boggling, and it baffles the Christian leader from Africa — I speak for all of Africa — it baffles the mind of the Christian leader from Africa, who ascribes to the whole Bible as his or her primary authority for faith and practice, to see and to hear that cultural Christianity can take the place of the Bible. United Methodists in America and other parts of the world are far going away from Scripture and giving in to cultural Christianity,” Kulah said.

Despite this sense of outrage, the African delegations largely maintained a calm, restrained presence amid the vocal demonstrations and arguments over procedure at the conference. But many stood up and sang during the recess in the middle of the most contentious day, as delegates considered whether to defer decisions on LGBT inclusion to a specially created commission. Their singing, asking God for help, brought a joyous moment in the middle of strife.

“I think the Americans have something to learn from us,” said Betty Katiyo, a delegate from the West Zimbabwe Conference.

She reflected the belief among many delegates from growing African conferences that their churches retain something of the spirit of Methodism’s founder John Wesley that they can share with the rest of the denomination.

The United Methodist Church in Africa has grown dramatically over the past 10 years — jumping 329 percent in the Africa Central Conference, 201 percent in Congo and 154 percent in West Africa — as membership has dipped in the United States and Europe.

Even with an 11 percent decline in membership, the U.S. branch still is the largest, boasting more than 7 million members. But Africa is not far behind with nearly 4.9 million – including the single largest delegation at the General Conference: 48 delegates from the North Katanga Conference in Congo.

And this year, after a change in the way delegates are allocated, Africa has a noticeably larger share of delegates: 260 out of 864 delegates, compared with 252 out of 956 delegates four years ago.

“This time around … you actually see the worldwide nature of the church in terms of delegates,” said Katiyo, attending her fourth General Conference.

“You could actually see there were more people from central conferences (those outside the U.S.), and also there were more people taking part even in the legislative committees. People were really taking part.”

And the Rev. Mande Muyombo, executive director of the General Board of Global Ministries’ Global Mission Connections and delegate from North Katanga, said: “It is also fair to say that Africa — in the past general conferences, African delegates were not as prepared as they’re becoming now. I think African delegates are more empowered, they’re more prepared, they’re more acquainted with Robert’s Rules of Order.”

Church leaders celebrate the commissioning of new missionaries May 19 at the 2016 United Methodist General Conference

Church leaders celebrate the commissioning of new missionaries May 19 at the 2016 United Methodist General Conference in Portland, Ore. From left are: the Rev. Mande Muyombo, Thomas Kemper of the denomination’s Board of Global Ministries and Bishops Hee-Soo Jung and Hope Morgan Ward. Photo by Mike DuBose courtesy of UMNS

Still, delegates from African countries expressed concerns that their members were underrepresented in the denomination and that the legislation discussed throughout its General Conference was too focused on issues that only pertain to America.

Some warned that a move on ordaining LGBT clergy or allowing clergy to perform same-sex marriages would split the church. Issues regarding the full inclusion of the denomination’s LGBT members have surfaced at every conference since 1972 and came to a head earlier in the week when delegates accepted bishops’ recommendations to defer any decisions to a commission and possible special session of the General Conference.

Aside from theological disagreement, Katiyo pointed out that homosexuality is not culturally accepted and is even illegal in some African countries. If the United Methodist Church affirmed the inclusion of its LGBT members, she said, it would be banned in her country of Zimbabwe.

African churches haven’t placed the same priority on the issue as the U.S. has, Mande said, though he pointed out that Africa is a huge continent, and one African country may not think the same as another.

“I also believe that African voices are diverse and the African notion of ubuntu (‘you are because I am’) is inclusive,” Mande said.

Examples of conference legislation that was too focused on the U.S., Katiyo said, included a measure advocating health care for all in the U.S. and a proposal to allocate $20 million to a new committee on U.S. church growth. The latter was later ruled unconstitutional by the Judicial Council.

When it comes to growth, she said, the American church could learn from Africa, despite the different dynamics in the country.

For one thing, the delegate said, her church of 1,500 emphasizes the Wesleyan idea of “class meetings,” small groups that gather every other week in members’ homes to pray and act as family. The church is a “nucleus” of the community, she said, hosting events throughout the week, and the congregation sets the day aside for worship after Sunday school “rather than a one-and-a-half-hour thing every week.”

The church in North Katanga also offers a holistic, Wesleyan approach to evangelism, according to Muyombo: building schools, hospitals, wells and farming projects around churches and making them relevant to their context.

And the denomination’s churches are sending missionaries “from everywhere to everywhere,” said Thomas Kemper, general secretary for Global Ministries.

But, Kemper said: “We need to find a relevant way for the Western culture as they seem to find a way for African or Filipino or whatever culture. It’s not that easy.”

That’s not to say churches in Africa are without challenges, Muyombo said.

The priorities instead for African churches are on such things as planting churches, ending conflicts and eradicating poverty, he said.

And while there’s no doubt the United Methodist Church in Africa is growing, it is not growing as fast as some other denominations, Kemper said. The structure of the churches in Africa also still is dependent on financial support from U.S. churches, he said.

Kulah agreed the African church needs to work toward becoming more self-sufficient because, as the bishops appoint a commission to discuss LGBT inclusion, he said, “what I see the church going to if we cannot reach a compromise — the end result would be schism, unfortunately.'”

Earlier in the week, delegates had approved a comprehensive plan for Africa that would add five bishops after the 2020 General Conference in Minneapolis, narrowly voting down a push to immediately add two bishops in Nigeria and in Zimbabwe.

“I think the word for me is ‘interdependent,’” Kemper said. “We continue to depend on each other, but we also have the ability to walk in our own shoes and our own way of being the church and not depending on financial support from one part of the church even to keep the structure.”

The General Conference is scheduled for the first time outside the U.S. in 2024 in Manila, Philippines, followed by 2028 in Harare, Zimbabwe.

Meantime, Katiyo said, “I wish either they come or they ask us to come … be missionaries to America. … I’m sure if that happens there will be change.”

About the author

Emily McFarlan Miller

Emily McFarlan Miller is a national reporter for RNS based in Chicago. She covers evangelical and mainline Protestant Christianity.

210 Comments

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  • Strange how some people equate hatred of gay people with the Good News of Jesus Christ. Even stranger, their failure to examine any other part of the book of Leviticus and realize the Bronze-Age barbarisms with which that book is rife.

    And lest I overplay that card, Leviticus is by no means the only book in the canon whose rules, laws and prescriptions were deemed long ago to have no place in decent, civilized societies. For whatever reason, however, some African societies remain on the other side of that time warp.

  • The New Testament is in full agreement with the old on such matters as these. It’s crystal clear, as is the fact that these men and women do not hate gay people. It is in fact strange how some people equate disapproval of homosexual romance with hatred.

  • Only when they think we belong in jail or should be executed, or are out to molest children, or out to destroy marriage, or out to convert heterosexuals, or trying to destroy civilization, or demanding special rights, or or or or or or or.

    It is in fact strange how some people equate disapproval of homosexual romance with wishing all kinds of harm on them, or blaming them for every ill of society.

  • “People from the country that brought the Gospel to us, are now preaching a different Gospel.”

    The Rev. Jerry Kulah’s statement is totally correct. That’s the story of General Conference 2016.

    The Methodists had an opportunity to give the entire world a clear, honest, yes-or-no answer on whether the denomination would follow the Bible, or else follow the homosexual movement, regarding gay marriage and openly gay clergy.

    But they punted. Kicked the can down the road for another three or even four years.

    They’re giving a FREE PASS to every single clergy who has either “come out as gay”, or officiated at a same-sex wedding, (or openly declared their support for such clergy), in direct violation of both the Bible and the Book of Discipline. They are allowing “a different gospel” to continue its damage.

    They punted for the sake of “unity”, they said. Good luck with THAT proposition, folks. You cannot achieve church unity by disobeying God’s Word. Trouble is coming, just over the horizon.

  • The beatings and murder of gay people seems a little stronger than simple “disapproval of homosexual romance” to me. Even the silence with which such hideous crimes is met by so-called Christians is appalling.

  • You obviously have no concept of construct, nor context with respect to both the Old Testament and the New Testament. Jesus did not speak to homosexuality, He did not think it necessary in the cultural context of the Jews to whom He was speaking. However, Paul, James, and Peter, when addressing Gentile converts in their letters, clearly admonished believers that homosexuality is not consistent with the Gospel. Gays are free to live and practice activities in their lives as defined and allowed by current law, but don’t equate that with what is allowed within the Church according to the scriptures which are the basis of faith for those that choose to walk in the way of Jesus.

  • Behind all of this is the fact that African Christians, led on by murderous American bigots like Scott Lively, are using religion to justify the imprisonment and execution of gays.

    Rather than condemn such vile extremists, their north American brethren are conspicuous silent.

  • The reason floydlee used an epithet to refer to LGBT Americans is anti-gays make a concerted effort to focus the attention of normal, non-homophobic Americans on “gay sex.” It is floydlee who seeks to give a “free pass” to each and every anti-gay activist who wants to hide his attacks on LGBT Americans as “freedom of religion,” and then attempts to project this unsavory aspect of his anti-gay political agenda onto his intended LGBT and LGBT supportive victims.

  • Or, in the case of the poster to whom you responded, attempt to project the abuses of anti-gays onto their intended victims.

  • It’s very interesting Mr. Borges-Silva claims to know the totality of Jesus’ opinions. A majority of American Christians reject that assumption that “Jesus just MUST have been homophobic, He just assumed everyone would know He wanted His followers to attack LGBT people.”

    Susan B. Anthony made a comment of how she feared those who claim they know the Will of God because they always claim God wants the same thing they want.

  • No, what is strange is this desperate attempt by anti-gays to deny they hate and fear LGBT people. Any country that criminalizes the relationship between loving, committed same gender couples has proven that hatred and fear of LGBT people has infected that country.

  • Rather than have an anti-gay poster discount those violent anti-gay Hate Crimes, here is the FBI’s record for 2013 alone:

    http://www dot fbi dot gov/news/stories/2014/december/latest-hate-crime-statistics-report-released/latest-hate-crime-statistics-report-released

  • “Gays are free to live and practice activities in their lives as defined and allowed by current law,”

    That is a fine bit of weasel wording and obfuscation on your part. Ignoring the effort of anti gay African Christians and their American evangelical supporters to imprison and murder gays as a matter if laws.

    Your reaction is much like how American antisemites in the 30’s and 40’s dealt with Nazi efforts (or American Communists to Stalin’s Great Terror if you will) Approval through silence, omission and agreement with sentiments. You don’t seem aware or troubled by how your Christian antigay beliefs are being used to justify atrocity.

  • Oh, I’m quite sure he knows, with the proliferation of anti-gay “freedom of religion means a special right to attack them f*gs” bills in Congress and state legislatures.

  • My aunt, a lifelong member of the UMC, was also a lifelong Republican, but because as an RN she saw the victims of botched back room abortions, she supported legal, safe abortions. Once homophobic herself, she came to reject that fear and hatred of her own LGBT close relatives with the help of her UMC minister. The UMC in the US is clearly better than the anti-gays from other countries, and would be better off dusting their feet from their anti-gay members, which can then associate with the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kansas.

  • A majority of American Christians support marriage equality, says the Public Religion Research Institute in a press release of February 18, 2016.

  • Oh definitely. Someone who thinks they are being persecuted if they are not allowed to persecute.

  • Liberalsim has corrupted United Methodism. Thank you, Africa, for bringing us the Gospel. First we brought it to you. Now you are bringing it back to us.

  • Liberals use the hate card as a transparent excuse, to get faithful Christians on the defense. Calling support of Scripture “hatred” is a red herring, an intentional misleading of people away from the reality: Liberalism does not believe in Scripture as their authority. They want to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil according to their carnal urges. They call upholders of Scripture “haters” for the same motive that Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the serpent. Discerning Christians, however, will see through this age-old ploy.

  • Please tell us just where the Bible says Jesus said, “Deprive LGBT people of their ability to protect their spouses through legal marriage,” which we know two large Christian churches did.

  • I’d say your nearly everything in your posting is broadbrushed, and definitely doesn’t agree with my experience among the people you write off as “liberal.”

    As to your setting yourself up as “discerning,” I’d take the plank out of my own eye before I posted again.

  • African Christians are justifying imprisonment and murder of gays using the same bigoted interpretations of scripture as yourself. Calling it hateful is being honest. Liberalism, a desire to combat oppression and prejudice is what is keeping beliefs from yours from descending into barbarity.

  • Actually it’s American evangelicals bringing reactionary bigotry to Africa. Because if these murderous Christian types can’t get gays executed in the US, they can try Africa and Russia.

  • No, Americans identify anti-gays as being motivated by hatred because anti-gays proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt by trying to deprive LGBT Americans of rights all other Americans take for granted. Please don’t bother falsely identifying the anti-gay political agenda as “support of Scripture.”

  • American anti-gay activist Scott Lively is being sued in federal court by Africans who just want to get him to stop messing with their countries.

  • You’re welcome. Please change the word “dot” to a period and eliminate the spaces at either side of the word.

    Documentary evidence is a tool anti-gays cannot use since they would reveal their impeachable sources. Hug a librarian when you can, they taught me how to do reference work.

  • Really.

    Every single attack on gay Americans has been sponsored, promulgated, paid for, and manned by so-called Christians. They have exported this hate to Russia, the former Russian satellite states, and Africa. This is very well documented. If you don’t know it, then you simply don’t wish to.

    when California finally repealed it’s sodomy laws in 1976, it was Christians claiming it was an attack on the family. States that had sodomy laws frequently wrote them as “the infamous crime against nature, not to be named among Christian men.” Laws that made me a criminal because of YOUR ideas about sin. Can’t see much love there.

    The infamous Uganda laws calling for the death penalty for gay people: bought an paid for by Christians.

    I could go on and on and on with a list of so-called Christians’ offenses against gay people, but why bother? You want to believe it’s all about your faith, instead of hiding behind your faith to defend a vicious bigotry.

    And then there is this: “They call upholders of Scripture “haters” for the same motive that Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the serpent. Discerning Christians, however, will see through this age-old ploy.”

    So now you are attacking other Christians for not upholding your barbarous prejudices, disguised as sincere religious belief and justified as god’s word.

    Here’s god’s word: Leviticus 20:13: “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death.”

    Yes or no?

  • But the Bible is not a democracy. Just because man seeks to indulge his sinful nature (and I mean all sins, not just practicing homosexuality) does not change what God says in His word. Man is attempting to discredit the Bible in order to do his own will instead of God’s. Nowhere does it say in the Bible to live as you wish so long as you love people. You cannot truly love God then choose to live your life outside of the boundaries He has set in the Bible, if you do then you are showing that you love yourself more than God. God’s word does not promise that believers will always have happiness and never have to sacrifice personally in order to be followers of Christ. In fact, it tells us again and again that we will suffer and face persecution for believing in Him. Being a true follower of God requires that you be all in, not following the warm and fuzzy parts and ignoring those that require sacrifice and pain. The fact that a majority of American Christians support something that is clearly called a sin in the Bible tells me just how far we as a nation have moved away from God and His word. Remember, the many will not find their way to salvation, they will be led into sin and temptation.

  • The Bible does not say that, as you well know. The Bible clearly draws the line between what is required by your government and what is required by God. Our government has legalized and recognized homosexual marriage. Why does the church need to do that? Those that I know personally who are struggling with the LGBT agenda within churches do not hate LGBT people. We object to the attempt to sanctify sin. Besides putting people in a position to separate themselves from God, which no believer should ever support, it raises the question about where it ends. Many churches turn a blind eye to premarital sex, living together before marriage and adultery citing that society has changed. So what part of God’s word do we uphold as absolute truth? Who decides the parts He really means and the ones that we can just ignore? Loving everyone as Jesus did is what God has asked of us, but he also clearly outlined how we as believers were expected to conduct our lives and that living within the boundaries He set was an outward sign of the Holy Spirit working within us. I don’t agree with hate or discrimination and I truly struggle with this issue, but I just can’t make it make sense in my mind how we start to ignore some teachings in the Bible and where that takes the church.

  • “But the Bible is not a democracy.” That’s true.
    The BIBLE is a Book of Ignorant Balderdash that’s Largely Egregious.

  • Let me know when bible believing Christians start treating all of the rest of the things they think are sins the same way they treat gay people.

    Show me the political campaigns denouncing divorce and all who are divorced for any reason except for adultery. Show me the demonization of people who drink too much. When do bible-believing Christians start denouncing the likes of Bryan Fischer, Tony Perkins, John Hagee, and a host of others for their reviling and slandering, by which they earn their livings from bible-believing Christians. When do we start hearing about your problems with the Bundy’s of the world, and their refusal to follow the lawful orders of the government. What about the sin of Mormonism, with St. Paul saying that anyone who delivers a different gospel than his being cursed?

    And while we’re at it, why don’t we start talking about the constant denunciations of Christians who don’t believe as you do, because they have had their conversations with God, and they sincerely just don’t believe you have it right.

    The issue is not what you believe. The issue is not how you apply it to your own life and live out your beliefs.The issue is the purposes to which you put your beliefs, and the selective ways in which you apply them to others.

  • “So what part of God’s word do we uphold as absolute truth?” The part that you apply to your own life, not to other people’s lives.

    “Who decides the parts He really means and the ones that we can just ignore?” Why, you do, of course. Like the parts where he tells you to stop trying to remove the mote in someone else’s eye while missing the beam in your own.

    But here you are anyway, talking about other people’s alleged sins, long before you have achieved spiritual perfection yourself.

  • Other True Christians tell me all sin is the same, none better or worse. whom am I to believe? Are you saying that gay men should be executed? And is that because you believe that we are corrupting society? And what does it mean? And how are we doing it?

    Personally, I believe that bigotry disguised as sincere religious belief is one of the worst corruptors of society, because the harm is palpable. My sin merely offends you, but you need to pretend it’s far worse than it is.

    Only you know why.

  • Why do I keep hearing an “or else” in what you have to say. Or is that “sieg heil.?”

  • Oh, I see. You are a person who simply doesn’t understand that a lot of people think your bible is just yet another book, yet another means for person X to control person y, an no more representative of god’s will than the Quran

    I have no interest in your bible, your God, or you. An increasing majority of the country agrees with me, not with you, as does an increasing portion of the civilized world.

    But here’s some news for you, something you’ll never hear a certain class of so called Christian acknowledge. I’m neither an addict nor violent, but a law abiding, productive, contributing member of my community. I neither need you, your church, nor your God to tell me how to live my life, though I’m sure you’ll do everything in your power o force me.

  • Your church is supporting the imprisonment and execution of people in Africa for being gay. Your silence on the subject is telling. You would rather pretend such efforts by your brethren aren’t happening or speak more broadly than consider such sinful and immoral actions done in God’s name.

  • Please note Ms. Knight can’t even use a respectful term for LGBT Americans, but instead foolishly reminds us by using that epithet that anti-gays are disturbingly obsessed with “gay sex,” even in a discussion of legal marriage.

    But why even bothering to deny anti-gays HATE LGBT Americans? We have the evidence of that. The US Supreme Court has already ruled the anti-gay Hate Laws and Hate Votes they revoked were tainted by animus–hatred.

    Of course, when an anti-gay starts lying that way, we can expect more lies, like that usual “where will this stop?” slippery slope lie. Don’t bother blaming LGBT Americans for the sleazy behavior of non-gays, Ms. Knight.

    Sad to say, we see that enraged, defeated anti-gay poster will even lie about her own hatred and fear of LGBT Americans. If anti-gays can’t be honest about this overarching hatred and fear they feel toward LGBT Americans, why would they think any of their other lies would still be fooling normal, non-homophobic Americans?

    Please stop trying to prevent other churches from dumping the homophobia, Ms. Knight. Stick to your Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kansas. Don’t you have a funeral somewhere to trash?

  • One of the most hilarious deceptions posted below by an anti-gay was an attempt to blame LGBT Americans for the frequent divorcing of non-gays. Here are the facts:

    “Divorce is higher among religiously conservative Protestants – and even drives up divorce rates for other people living around them, a new study finds.

    The study, slated to be published in the American Journal of Sociology, tackles the “puzzling paradox” of why divorce is more common in religiously conservative “red” states. If religious conservatives believe firmly in the value of marriage, why is divorce especially high in places like Alabama and Arkansas?

    Researchers also discovered that people living in areas with lots of conservative Protestants were at higher risk of getting divorced, even if they weren’t conservative Protestants themselves. Community institutions in such areas might encourage early marriage, affecting divorce rates for everyone who lives there. “Pharmacies might not give out emergency contraception. Schools might only teach abstinence education.” On top of that, “if you live in a marriage market where everybody marries young, you postpone marriage at your own risk. The best catches … are going to go first.”

    http://www dot latimes dot com/world/worldnow/la-sci-sn-red-states-religious-conservative-divorce-20140116,0,7835151 dot story#axzz2qllXU5CS

  • Don’t forget, the anti-gay churches are also supporting anti-gay Hate Laws in the US in premeditated violations of IRS regulations. The federal trial that resulted in the revocation of the California anti-gay H8te Vote produced evidence Catholic and Mormon bosses committed criminal acts to throw that H8te Vote.

  • So churches that routinely violate IRS regulations for 503c3 entities by throwing elections “have an obligation to safeguard the image of the church as a whole”? How about your post, where you demean, demonize and dehumanize LGBT Americans? What does that do for “the image of the church as a whole”?”

    We know the result of what anti-gays have done to “the image of the church as a whole,” here it is:

    “Among those who say they left their childhood religion and now have no religious identity, nearly one in four (24 percent) say their church’s negative teachings or treatment of LGBT people was an important reason they left. That rises to 31 percent of millennials, damaging churches’ ability to bring in — and keep — young adults”

    http://www dot religionnews dot com/2014/02/26/gay-marriage-lgbt-prri-pew-religion/

  • We know several pastors in the US are demanding that LGBT Americans be rounded up and murdered, something they have in common with “sieg heil.”

  • “practicing homosexuality”

    Where does it say in the Bible to fantasize about what loving, committed same gender married couples do in the privacy of their homes?

    Jesus affirmed a gay couple. Read Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10. This is the Gospel story where Jesus healed the servant of a Roman centurion. In the original Greek, the word that the Roman centurion uses in this passage to describe the sick man – pais – is the same word used in ancient Greek to refer to a same-gender partner.

    Of course, anti-gays won’t agree with that translation. However, modern Biblical scholars have proven the Bible was intentionally mistranslated in order to provide “Biblical cover” for then-rising levels of homophobia. For example, the word “homosexual” didn’t even exist until 1870. Many major Christian and Jewish denominations condemn misusing the hate-based mistranslations to attack their fellow Americans and are marrying same gender American couples now. About 400 years ago, a group of religious authorities (sanctioned by King James I of England), secretly manipulated the English version of the Bible to reflect their own heterosexual attitude; they opposed the King kissing other men in public.

  • Maybe if you pull your head out… of the bible… and look around, you might notice the real world is VERY different from what the bible says. You might notice that the premise of the bible is that you are to stupid to figure out right and wrong. And you might notice that everything in the bible is recycled nonsense from religions that died out on the merits in ages long past.

  • Please stop using the term “Christians” when you mean anti-gays. A majority of American Christians reject and condemn your anti-gay agenda. Spare us that spam about “moral equivalency,” it provides no cover for the immoral and criminal acts committed by anti-gay churches they committed in order to force their nasty, homophobic “beliefs” onto all Americans by throwing anti-gay Hate Votes.

  • Oh, I see, you think attacking him personally, and calling him by a Hate Speech epithet, that you will hide the facts anti-gays find so very, very “convenient.”

    Anti-gays always lower themselves to flinging personal attacks when normal, non-homophobic Americans debunk their lies, or even say, “No, I will not help you subvert the United States Constitution and force your ugly, hateful, hurtful homophobic “beliefs” onto all Americans by misusing the force of the Law.”

  • Personally, I prefer the guy claiming that supporting gay people causes anti-Semitism.
    I hope he continues to publish this nonsense. I don’t have the time to do all of anti-gay Christianity’s work for them.

  • And what about that part about killing disobedient children? It’s RIGHT THERE. If you want to be tight with god, you best get to killing those kids.

  • If you were actually “struggling with this issue”, you wouldn’t come to the conclusions you do.

  • I’m afraid you have to do that. I am too busy bringing about the fall of western civilization to have time for someone else’s brats.

  • I beg your pardon? You never heard of the ‘Sacrifice of Christ” and the ‘New Covanant”?

    Jesus Christ! The specific reason the New Testament exists is because JESUS said the Old Testament was BUNK. That’s why they nailed him to the cross. And here you are claiming with a straight face there is no contradiction. What can I say, except, “Wow”?

  • You are right. The bible is not government. It’s religion. And thank god there is a difference.

  • slate (dot) com/blogs/outward/2014/12/16/scott_lively_alien_tort_statute_means_lgbt_ (remove this space) ugandans_can_sue_him_in_america.html

    religionnews (dot) com/2015/10/01/lgbt-scott-lively-human-rights-persecution-uganda-russia-kim-davis/

  • On a related note, today is the 46th anniversary of the date that uber-Christian and arch-homohater Anita Bryant filed for divorce from her husband Bob. It was not because of adultery, either his or hers, which was the only reason that divorce was not sinful, according to Jesus. He was god, and he should know.

    It was because, according to Bryant’s statement, which the AP reported she released “from her 25-room Miami Beach home” (Who said, ” It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich woman to enter the kingdom of heaven?” No one important.)……….

    She charged that Good Ol’ Bob cooperated “with certain hired staff members who conspired to control me and to use my name and reputation to build their personal careers instead of my ministry.” Her statement brought to a close their twenty year marriage. She even went so far as to claim that her divorce was “against everything I believe in.”

    Well, almost everything. But convenience is a harsh mistress.

    For those who think that I am just an anti-Christian “homosexual”, perverted by my perverted perversions of perverted lust,. No, I’m not. I just wish you would all attend to your own sins, rather than trying to find excuses for them, and stop attacking my life, my love, my family, my friends, my faith, and my children…

    …under the guise of loving me. Because I find your attacks completely indistinguishable from hate, and your moralizing completely indistinguishable from hypocrisy. As in “Scribes! Pharisees! Hypocrites!”

    And again, who said that?

    No one important.

  • I am not, and will never be, a member of your archaic Christian Club. Therefore, nothing you say is applicable to me. If you choose to live by that Club’s rules, that’s fine, but the moment you pressure me to do so as well, you have stepped out of bounds.

    Why don’t you travel to an Islamic State area, and work as a Christian missionary?

  • What part of the bible do we hold up as truth? If you are going to decide that much, why not just go the rest of the way and take responsibility for your own views?

  • Anita Bryant’s handlers invented over 40 years ago most of the lies with which anti-gays spam this board. She lost her last paying job in 1978, when Florida Orange Juice was the first American corporation to recognize anti-gays are liars by refusing to renew her contract as their spokesmodel since she herself had destroyed her credibility by telling all those lies. Bryant lives in obscurity and poverty in a small town in Oklahoma today.

  • Due to the obvious parallel of your mindset to fanatical Muslims, I couldn’t help seeing your opening paragraph as . . .

    “As Christians Muslims, we are not just concerned with the application of the scriptures Quran to our own lives, but have an obligation to safeguard the image of the church mosque as a whole. We are admonished to cast out from among us those who refuse to live as God Allah commands.”

  • Many observers note that anti-gays themselves are the engine of their defeat. As I observed above, Americans started realizing in 1978 that anti-gays always lie.

    I read your post to my husband, who comment about all the misery Bryant created. Yes, I remember marching around the Chicago Medinah Temple where Bryant had her last paid concert appearance in 1977, one over over 100,000 demonstrators against her filth. Concert impresarios noticed there demonstrators outnumbered ticket buyers over 100 to 1, and she never had a paid singing engagement again.

    However, at least she has at least stopped pumping out hate speech, apparently declining to comment about the complete defeat of her anti-gay political agenda.

  • I was talking about YOUR kids. The bible doesn’t say anything about killing anyone elses kids.

  • Thank you. More, just for backup:

    https://www dot washingtonpost dot com/national/religion/correction-mass-pastor-scott-lively-faces-possible-fine-for-harsh-anti-gay-efforts-in-uganda/2015/10/02/304c74ea-6947-11e5-bdb6-6861f4521205_story dot html

    https://www dot washingtonpost dot com/national/religion/mass-pastor-scott-lively-faces-possible-fine-for-harsh-anti-gay-efforts-in-uganda/2015/10/01/a1e0d86e-686e-11e5-bdb6-6861f4521205_story dot html

  • And why don’t you stick to minding your own business? If people like you stopped dictating how non-members of your club must conduct their lives, I wouldn’t be here.

  • I’ve yet to see an anti-gay take responsibility for their immoral views. To a man, each and every anti-gay denies their hatred and fear of LGBT Americans, and falsely accuses all American Christians as similarly suffering from the mental disorder, homophobia.

  • That’s the point, Mr. Rush, anti-gays have sought and are still seeking to force you to live by their peculiar, minority “beliefs.”

  • Your personal attack might be appropriate if all religious people everywhere shared the mental disorder, homophobia. Conversely, why don’t you restrict your nasty comments to your favorite anti-gay Hate Cult’s website, or a website that deletes any non-homophobic comments like “Free Republic”?

    Remember, there is a large and powerful nation where your anti-gay political agenda is wanted–Russia. Vladimir Putin hosts meetings of anti-gays from the US in Moscow so they can discuss treason openly.

  • You brought anti-gay filth here. If you don’t like normal, non-homophobic Americans debunking anti-gay lies and condemning anti-gay hate speech, I urge you to take your garbage elsewhere.

  • “I am not demeaning and dehumanizing LGBT. They do that by their perverse acts – much like a person engaging in bestiality dehumanizes himself.”

    You demeaned, demonized and dehumanized LGBT Americans with that filth right there. Previously, you demeaned, demonized LGBT Americans with this filth:

    “sexually immoral”
    “the perverse lifestyles”
    “homosexuals and that ilk”

    Why bother lying just before you post anti-gay Hate Speech and when your previous filth is still here?

  • Your comment confirms an obvious fact:
    You believe that my business is your business.

  • Why deny anti-gays want to commit genocide against LGBT Americans the way Hitler committed genocide against LGBT Europeans? Your anti-gay candidate Cruz brought out two anti-gays, Iowa Pastor Kevin Swanson and “Duck Dynasty” anti-gay Phil Robertson, both who called for genocide against LGBT Americans, and Cruz endorsed their genocide demands!

  • How do you know I’m not a Christian? Spare us your pathetic personal attacks. How many times must I post the evidence a majority of American Christians reject and condemn your immoral and disloyal anti-gay political agenda?

    “More than six in ten (62 percent) white mainline Protestants support same-sex marriage. Among white mainline Protestant denominations, support ranges from 69 percent support among white mainline Presbyterians and 68 percent among both white Episcopalians and white Congregationalists/United Church of Christ members, to lower support among white mainline Baptists (53 percent) and white mainline Church of Christ/Disciples (50 percent).

    And while the Catholic Church officially opposes the legalization of same-sex marriage, about six in ten white (61 percent), Hispanic (60 percent), and other non-white Catholics (60 percent) support allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry legally. A majority of orthodox Christians (56 percent) also support same-sex marriage.

    The most supportive major religious groups are Buddhists (84 percent), Jews (77 percent), and Americans who select “Other religion” (75 percent); additionally, more than three-quarters (77 percent) of the religiously unaffiliated also support same-sex marriage.”

    http://publicreligion dot org/2015/04/attitudes-on-same-sex-marriage-by-religious-affiliation-and-denominational-family/# dot VbUcrRNVhBe

  • By posting progressively more vicious personal attacks, you demonstrate you have failed to sell your fake religion that is really a traitorous political agenda here.

  • More vicious personal attacks…

    Sorry, we already know who put false doctrines into the Bible. Modern Biblical scholars have proven the Bible was intentionally mistranslated relatively recently in order to provide “Biblical cover” for then-rising levels of homophobia. For example, the word “homosexual” didn’t even exist until 1870. Many major Christian and Jewish denominations condemn misusing the hate-based mistranslations to attack their fellow Americans and are marrying same gender American couples now. About 400 years ago, a group of religious authorities (sanctioned by King James I of England), secretly manipulated the English version of the Bible to reflect their own heterosexual attitude; they opposed the King kissing other men in public. But in revised versions, religious authorities re-defined the Greek word “arsenokoites” of 1 Corinthians 6:9. The most accurate translation, abusers of themselves with mankind [KJV], was pretty vague. Nevertheless, they replaced this vague 5-worded text with the not so vague and purposely targeted 1-word text, “homosexual(s).” Either way you cut it, this text does not describe loving, committed same gender couples. This campaign gave those who were looking for a reason to justify their own homophobia a license to openly express their bigotry.

    “homosexuality is one of the perversions”

    Yet more desperate attempts to demean, demonize and dehumanize LGBT Americans…

  • You called him a “child of the devil.” Then you attacked me AGAIN. While most Americans will laugh at your pathetic insult, you clearly meant that as a vicious attack.

  • Sorry, you just proved the Bible DOES NOT ATTACK loving, committed same gender married couples.

  • You are trying to “exert a force” to demand everyone accept your nasty opinion about LGBT Americans. However, as you demonstrated yourself by switching to vicious personal attacks, even you know you have failed to sell homophobia here.

  • No, you studied the Hate Speech of Fred Phelps, the founder of your “church.” A good way to debunk your lies about the Bible is to post a brief list of some of the churches that reject and condemn your misinterpretation. These denominations will marry same gender couples: Affirming Pentecostal Church International, Alliance of Christian Churches, Anointed Affirming Independent Ministries, The Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Community of Christ, Conservative Judaism, Ecumenical Catholic Church, Ecumenical Catholic Communion, The Episcopal Church, Evangelical Anglican Church In America, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals, Inclusive Orthodox Church, Moravian Church Northern Province, Metropolitan Community Church, Old Catholic Church, Presbyterian Church USA, Progressive Christian Alliance, Reconciling Pentecostals International, Reconstructionist Judaism, Reform Judaism, Reformed Anglican Catholic Church, Religious Society of Friends (Quakers), Unitarian Universalist Church, United Church of Christ, Unity Church

  • Please note “Romans” is the barely coherent scribbling of a disturbed misogynist who never met Jesus except in an alcohol-infused hallucination. Please tell us where Jesus said, “Go attack loving, committed same gender couples.

  • And anti-gays will attack them and say, “They can’t be real churches if they won’t help promote my anti-gay political agenda.”

    It doesn’t surprise me you’d attack the majority of American churches as well as post vicious personal attacks at those here who debunk your lies. Maggie Phelps-Roper does all the above, all the time.

  • Just another personal attack, as well as more projection, but thanks for admitting Jesus NEVER said “Homophobia is Holy, and the manure upon My Church will be built.”

  • Your posts containing all your vicious personal attacks are here. Posting yet another vicious personal attack won’t make your previous personal attacks smell like roses.

  • Yet another vicious personal attack.

    What this enraged, defeated anti-gay really dislikes is I have excellent reading comprehension, and I catch each and every of his lies and Hate Speech.

  • That means you recognize how few “churches” still promote your anti-gay POLITICAL agenda.

  • This school is trying so hard to affirm and infect others with their “lifestyle.” Yes, the problem is with anti-gays. Americans all know that now. Please note even the few remaining Americans who voted in the primaries for the “Gay Obsessed Party” rejected all their homophobic candidates.

  • It looks to me like you’re about to lose this sock puppet. Time to create yet another sock puppet and repeat all the same lies?

  • I see you’ve switched from “American Christians” so you can include the Russian Orthodox Church. This is because you know I’m correct, and a majority of American Christians reject and condemn your anti-gay political agenda.

  • Homophobia is a mental disorder, not a “moral value.” Anti-gays themselves, you included, demonstrate immoral behavior by trying to subvert the United States Constitution and force that mental disorder onto normal, non-homophobic Americans by misusing the power of the Law. Of course, that subversive tactic is being exhausted right now; courts are preparing to revoke the “freedom of religion means we have a special right to attack LGBT Americans” laws.

  • “Even if you just use America, acceptance of LGBT is far from the majority.”

    PROVE IT.

    Here’s the proof you are LYING:

    “More than six in ten (62 percent) white mainline Protestants support same-sex marriage. Among white mainline Protestant denominations, support ranges from 69 percent support among white mainline Presbyterians and 68 percent among both white Episcopalians and white Congregationalists/United Church of Christ members, to lower support among white mainline Baptists (53 percent) and white mainline Church of Christ/Disciples (50 percent).

    And while the Catholic Church officially opposes the legalization of same-sex marriage, about six in ten white (61 percent), Hispanic (60 percent), and other non-white Catholics (60 percent) support allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry legally. A majority of orthodox Christians (56 percent) also support same-sex marriage.

    The most supportive major religious groups are Buddhists (84 percent), Jews (77 percent), and Americans who select “Other religion” (75 percent); additionally, more than three-quarters (77 percent) of the religiously unaffiliated also support same-sex marriage.”

    http://publicreligion dot org/2015/04/attitudes-on-same-sex-marriage-by-religious-affiliation-and-denominational-family/# dot VbUcrRNVhBe

  • And:

    “Americans are angry about society’s mistreatment of LGBT people, and not about same-sex marriage, according to a widely publicized new poll from Esquire Magazine and NBC News that attempts to gauge anger in the US.

    According to the survey, titled “American Rage,” only 22 percent of respondents said they’d be very angry or somewhat angry about a hypothetical headline reading, “More Than 100,000 Couples Have Wed Since Supreme Court Ruling.”

    Meanwhile, 41 percent said they believe LGBT people have a right to be angry about how they’re treated, 45 percent said they’re angry themselves about how LGBT people are treated, and only 24 percent said they supported Kentucky clerk Kim Davis and her refusal to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

    Those results led The Washington Post to call LGBT equality “the social-justice issue that garnered the most agreement” in the wide-ranging survey, beating out African-American, immigrants’ and women’s rights.”

    http://www dot thenewcivilrightsmovement dot com/johnwright/poll_americans_angry_about_mistreatment_of_lgbt_people_not_same_sex_marriage

  • That’s a LIE. Sexual orientation, whether gay or non-gay, has been shown by science to be inborn and unchangeable, and psychologists have shown being gay or lesbian is just as healthy and “normal” as being non-gay. However, psychologists identified homophobia as a mental illness and published their results in the Journal of the National Institutes of Health in 1953. Psychologists report that the most commonly observed symptom of the mental disorder homophobia is cognitive dissonance, an inability of those so afflicted to accept documentation that contradicts their deep-seated phobia and hatred of LGBT Americans.

  • I know that psychologists report that the most commonly observed symptom of the mental disorder homophobia is cognitive dissonance, an inability of those so afflicted to accept documentation that contradicts their deep-seated phobia and hatred of LGBT Americans.

    I don’t care whether you believe the evidence or not. I don’t post facts that debunk anti-gay lies for the benefit of anti-gay liars, but so that no one else will be fooled by anti-gay lies.

    You will find a majority of American Christians view your anti-gay agenda as a false doctrine.

  • You seem so desperate to project your own problem onto your intended LGBT victims.

  • You are lying about the Word Of God. I asked you to post just where in the Bible Jesus said, “Attack same gender couples, and try to force Caesar to attack them also,” and your response was a vicious personal attack.

    Please stop harassing me.

  • Temp34208028901-4, you are clearly suffering from the Holy Trinity of Mental Disorders:

    • Gay Obsession Disorder
    • Gender Obsession Disorder
    • God Obsession Disorder

    It is exceedingly rare for a person to suffer from just one of those disorders without suffering from all three of them.

  • Ben, I hope you will see this. By accident, I fell upon a YouTube of a small town in Oklahoma naming a street for her. She attended, and most of the people there were here extended family. She said NOT ONE WORD about her anti-gay political agenda. I’m sure that if someone today backed her verbally into a corner, she’d claim she is still homophobic, but I suspect she knows she is wrong and is trying to make up for her misdeeds. I can’t quite hate this old lady who just wants to spend her last days with her extended family.

  • I believe you are correct. I hope that person will Google “Shawnee County Kansas Mental Health Hotline” and seek assistance.

  • This is a discussion board. If you don’t want your fabrications to be challenged and your Hate Speech and personal attacks condemned, you might want to post at the website of an anti-gay Hate Cult or a right-wing website whose monitors immediately delete any challenge to anti-gay lies and hate speech.

  • More desperate attempts to “project” away your own misdeeds, more vicious personal attacks, more inadvertent admission of the crushing defeat of your anti-gay political agenda…

  • Ted Cruz made the mistake of revealing to a much larger audience the desire of his supporters to round up and murder LGBT Americans. Cruz’s pal, Iowa pastor Kevin Swanson said at a Cruz rally that he wanted all LGBT Americans murdered, and Cruz endorsed his speech immediately thereafter. Similarly, Cruz’s pal Phil Robertson, “Duck Dynasty” creep Phil Robertson said he wanted not only LGBT Americans but anyone who supports marriage equality “removed from the earth.”

    Thank you for demonstrating you have the same megalomaniacal desire to commit genocide against LGBT Americans. Like I’ve posted before, anti-gays themselves, by shrieking their murderous intent, are the engine of the defeat of their anti-gay political agenda.

    It does seem like you’ve exhausted this sock puppet. New sock puppet in 5… 4… 3… 2… 1…

  • “Ho moph obia is apparently associated with ho mose xual arousal that the ho moph obic individual is either unaware of or denies.”

    http://www dot landman-psychology dot Com/Homophobia%20Associated%20with%20Homosexual%20Arousal dot pdf

    http://psycnet dot apa dot Org/journals/abn/105/3/440/

    An agency of the federal government, the National Institutes of Health, publishes a supporting study:

    http://www dot ncbi dot nlm dot nih dot Gov/pubmed/8772014

    Here’s a video that illustrates that study:

    http://www dot youtube dot Com/watch?v=AEuDDvqYbVw

    How about a You-tube SONG that explains this?

    http://www dot youtube dot Com/watch?v=1CQg9f7z9eg&feature=youtube

  • No, you referenced your sexual fantasies. No, I will NOT have “gay male anal sex” with you. Please stop harassing me.

    “Dr. George Rekers, a Christian anti-gay leader, was caught with a hooker from Rentboy dot com—the latest example of hypocrisy on the religious right. Michelle Goldberg on why Ted Haggards keep happening.

    In 1996, three researchers from the University of Georgia published a study in the Journal of Abnormal Psychology about the links between homophobia and homosexual arousal. The authors, Henry E. Adams, Lester W. Wright, Jr., and Bethany A. Lohr, started with 35 straight men identified as homophobic and 29 straight men that were not. Both groups were shown heterosexual, lesbian and gay male porn while their erectile responses were measured. “Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli,” reported the researchers.

    Rekers deserves a measure of pity as well as scorn. If he portrayed homosexuality as a life-destroying temptation that only the strictest of measures could contain, that’s because, for him, it was.

    It was empirical evidence for a theory long popular among psychoanalysts: that those most hostile to gay people are often driven by terror and shame about their own desires.”

    http://www dot thedailybeast cot com/articles/2010/05/05/the-christian-rights-gay-problem dot html

  • You say you are the expert on homophobia? Sorry, if the patient really understood his mental disorder, he’d be on the road to recovery. Homophobia is curable.

    Please stop harassing me.

  • You claimed expert status here:

    “By the way, it’s not “homophobia”, it’s “homoaidia”.”

    Anti-gays typically deny what they just posted a few seconds before, one of the reasons all normal, non-homophobic Americans now realize anti-gays always lie.

  • http://crusaderknight dot blogspot dot com/2008/05/homoaidia-not-homophobia dot html

    You made up a new word. Funny, anti-gays also project that onto their intended LGBT victims as well as the psychologists who established that mental disorder in 1953 by claiming the mental disorder is “made up.”

    Anti-gays are their worst enemies.

  • Leading psychologists have established anti-gays are responsible for high levels of suicide among LGBT youth. You yourself demonstrated you take pleasure in that. Americans have noticed that not only do anti-gays try to drive LGBT you into suicide, anti-gays clearly take pleasure at the suffering of these LGBT youths and their families. Families of LGBT youth suicide victims have reported just such harassment.

    Please tell readers again how much pleasure you derive fantasizing that LGBT Americans will suffer and commit suicide.

  • You have once again expressed a desire to see genocide committed against LGBT Americans. Blaming that on your deity is no excuse.

  • Susan B. Anthony said she feared those who claim they know what “God wants” because of how what “God wants” is always the same as what they want. Once again, blaming your desire to commit genocide against all Americans who reject your anti-gay agenda onto your deity, just as Phil Robertson did in public and to complete disgust even from GOP voters, does not absolve you.

  • Something tells me anti-gays consider murdering LGBT Americans to be “absolution.”

  • Oh, my. Another story you tell yourself to justify yourself.

    I’m not trying to force anything on you– that is, unless you can produce the gun I’m holding to your head to make you read my comments.

    Bang! BAng! you’re READ.

  • “I’m just quoting the Bible. There is no need to guess at what God wants. He makes it plain and clear.”

    If that’s true, then why are there thousands of Christian denominations/sects? I always have to laugh when someone says, “The Bible is clear blah, blah, blah.

  • Correct. The Bible is so constantly contradictory that such a claim is really laughable, but we can’t expect anti-gays to admit they cherry-picked the parts that give them pleasure and seem to excuse their murderous intent. I suspect you will agree that no anti-gay has ever posted “Jesus said the second most important Commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself.” The clarity in that quote is something anti-gays can’t admit.

  • Well, strictly speaking, they realized that her stuff was a liability for their brand. I’m pretty sure they didn’t object to what she was saying. I certainly don’t remember any objections, and I was there.

    But just remember , she gave up nothing that mattered for treasures on earth. Just her marriage and her most deeply held beliefs. She was the Melissa sweet cakes of her time.

  • Thank you. I would much rather be “a child of the devil” than a child of God.

    If I were going to worship a supernatural being, I’d choose Satan simply based on your God’s own Word which documents that God killed about 2,500,000 people, and Satan killed about 10. If we try to estimate the additional killings that are not documented with specific numbers, then God’s killings zoom to about 25,000,000 while Satan’s killings zoom to about 60. It’s no contest. Why would I worship a egotistical barbaric genocidal maniac when I could worship someone much more progressive and with much higher standards of human decency.

    If you look up the symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder by the Mayo Clinic or elsewhere, it seems to describe your God pretty well:

  • I will agree, maybe they did agree with her lies, but by declining to extend her contract, they did demonstrate she was worthless to them, and that’s powerful stuff for 1978, for a corporation to recognize even then enough Americans rejected Bryant’s lies that her lies hurt their sales. I remember buying frozen concentrate for orange juice that said “FROM CALIFORNIA” in huge letters at that time.

  • I always think about what Mark Twain wrote, “God created Man in His image, and man, being a gentleman, returned the favor.”

    Why does it puzzle anti-gays to learn that after they have presented their deity as so nasty and hateful and hurtful, that fewer Americans every day want anything to do with their nasty creation?

    “[T]he major new survey of more than 35,000 Americans by the Pew Research Center finds that the percentage of adults (ages 18 and older) who describe themselves as Christians has dropped by nearly eight percentage points in just seven years, from 78.4% in an equally massive Pew Research survey in 2007 to 70.6% in 2014. Over the same period, the percentage of Americans who are religiously unaffiliated – describing themselves as atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular” – has jumped more than six points, from 16.1% to 22.8%.”

    http://www dot pewforum dot org/2015/05/12/americas-changing-religious-landscape/

  • I know that there was homosexuality in ancient Greece. Greeks were so mysogynist that they thought that homosexual love was more spiritual, because they believed that women were too shallow and to be capable of a deeper love.

  • I was talking about YOUR kids. There is nothing in the bible about killing other peoples kids.

  • I am sorry you are misinformed about the Holy Bible. I would ask you to study it closely and try to conform to it rather than have it conform to you. I think it is a common misconception that Christians hate gay’s.

  • Just laziness? Gimme a minute.

    Stubborn. Rebellious. Does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, Stubborn and rebellious again. Will not obey again. A glutton and a drunkard.

    No. Laziness isn’t here. I guess your kid’s off the hook.

  • I wonder where we got that impression?

    But it isn’t really completely correct. So much of it is a complete unwarranted faith in your entirely imaginary superiority as Christians, as moral people and as human beings.

    After all, you folks can sin and repent and sin and repent and ask Jesus to forgive you which he always does and sin and repent some more. We gay people are spiritually poor, because we are neither buying that we are sinning, and repenting not even once. I suspect that’s the part that really bothers you. We’re being uppity, and no longer buying the stuff your selling– not even those who stay with your churches buy it, certainly not their friends and families, and increasing, not young people in general.

    I would suggest you find my posting today about the 46Th anniversary of anita Bryant’s divorce. She said it went against every principle she had, Except for hypocrisy. She also claimed to love us. She just hated how we are always molesting innocent children, or spreading diseases, or causing the baby Jesus to cry or insisting that we are human beings, American citizens, and your neighbors.

    Love thy neighbor? who said that?

    Again. no one important.

  • But god doesn’t want me to kill your kids. You’ve read the bible, haven’t you?

  • What is the good news of Jesus Christ? And regarding issues of family and sexuality – what is the New testament position on that and how does said good news apply?

  • Except for the parts where either God or people acting on his behalf kill other people’s kids.

  • There is the saying that a happy Christian is one who never cracks open a Bible. A pious j_rk is one who only reads part of the Bible. An atheist is one who read the whole thing.

  • Thank you, spuddie. I was starting to think I might have to do some smiting and cursing and such.

  • There was an interview a few years ago. It seems she is still a bitter old queen, still blaming gay people, still convinced of the rightness of her cause, and the rightness of lying for Jesus, though she didn’t admit to the lying.

    And still going on with the “blessed are those who are persecuted” Schtick. She missed the part of “sow the wind, inherit the whirlwind.”

  • True! Except that I am a free person. I am not a christian. So I don’t have to listen when SOME GUY tells me god told him to tell me to join in and stone that kid.

    But you, if you are a Christian, will go to hell if you don’t. Ain’t religion great?

  • You know. Half this conversation has been edited. And so it doesn’t make a hell of a lot of sense. So I will NEVER be able to do here what I set out to. So I am just going to block the URL and NEVER RETURN to religionnews dot com.

    Religious people always try to silence their critics. It’s the only way to keep their flock together. And priests gotta eat.

  • But if you can’t claim God wants those kids dead, then you are left with having to consider yourself a murderous person and take responsibility for that. No fun whatsoever. 🙂

  • I wouldn’t say I hate her. Even in her glory days I didn’t hate her. I had met far too many people just like her by then: obsessed with their own righteousness and other people’s alleged sins, completely uninterested in the truth of what she was claiming, seeing an opportunity to “witness”, no matter what the cost to herself and others, and getting to pat herself on her own shoulders because she was being just so close to the imaginings in her heart of her God.

    If she were a Hindu, she would understand karma. If she were actually aware, she would understand there are no rewards and no punishments, just comsequences. And that she had aplenty.

    In some ways, I am grateful to her. Because she galvanized our generation to come out, never understanding that neither she nor her particular, peculiar version of God was the enemy. The enemy is and always has been the closet.

  • Scripture is not infallible and Methodism does not call for us to treat it as such. Reason and experience influence our understanding of God, too. My reason and experience tell me that women need not remain silent in church and that gays are responding to a biological imperative.

  • I see the apostates as those who damn other people, who judge other people, who assure themselves that they are the only true Christians. Jesus had a great deal to say about you. Unfortunately, it isn’t convenient for you to read that part of your bible.

    If I actually believed in your adversary, I would say that he has done a very good job of convincing you that all of Christianity can be boiled down to…

    GET THE GAYS.

  • Because this is about religion, yours mine and theirs.

    I would suggest you go to Frankie Graham’s website. Actually dissent is eliminated, and you can agree all day with the Grifting Mr. graham.

  • Oh noes. He called us children of the devil!

    If I were the devil, the 2000 years of anti-human Christianity would be my proudest product.

  • And yet, you disparage all of those Christians who have communed with their God, weighed YOU in the balance, and found YOU wanting.

    But I do want to thank you for doing your bit to decline Christianity in the west. Every time you claim that Christianity is about GET THE GAYS, and little else, you are doing your adversary’s work.

  • Wasn’t he referring to the Jews? Scratch an old bigot, find a shiny new bigot underneath.

  • 43 years ago, they realized that they were selling bigotry masquerading as science, and repudiated it.

    You’re selling bigotry masquerading as sincere religious belief, but you will never repudiate it,

  • We’re talking about the United States. Then we’re talking about the civilized world.

    That some Christians in the world still prefer to be uncivilized is a severe problem. those in Uganda would rather attack gay people then the problem of radical Islam, poverty, and lack of drinking water.

  • Now, it really, finally comes out.

    We are a cancer on the planet.

    Funny. I thought I was just living my life, paying my taxes, making the lives of my family and friends better, helping others, and contributing to my community.

    Thank you for demonstrating once again what so many people are realizing: prejudice in general, and antigay prejudice in particular, are the real cancer on the planet.

    But then, I have become increasingly convinced that he more virulent the homohatred, the more likely it is that someone has an issue with themselves.

  • Gee whiz, honey. Thanks for proving my point. You are certainly thinking about something a little too much.

  • How about ho bigotry or homohatred.

    But then, homophobia is nt the fear of homosexuals, it’s the fear that you, yourself are homosexual.

  • Wow. It’s getting better and better.

    Glad to know its not hate, but religion driving you.

  • Each and every time you publicly announce your deliberate conflation of your religious belief with antigay bigotry, another thinking, caring, decent person sees your so called religious belief for what it obviously is.

    And another gay angel gets his or her wings.

    Thanks.

  • Absolutely, Methodist teach that Holy Scripture is “infallible”. You must not be a Methodist.

  • Agreed. It has become increasingly clear that anti-gays are the engine of their own defeat. The anti-gay shills spamming this website only prove how dishonest they are.

  • The 32 state anti-gay Hate Votes denying same gender American couples the same ability to protect each other through legal marriage that mixed-sex couples take for granted were all revoked by federal courts because animus–HATRED–was the sole motivation for those unconstitutional laws. The US Supreme Court confirmed animus–HATRED–was the sole motivation. That’s clear evidence anti-gays HATE LGBT Americans.

    Your mistake is in misusing the term “Christians” when you meant “anti-gays.” Anti-gays routinely try to drag all American Christians down in the dirt with them. Americans are no longer fooled by this routine anti-gay LIE.

  • Once again, there’s that misuse of the term “Christian” as a synonym for “anti-gay.”

    This forum is about religion. It is not exclusive to the official anti-gay Christian church, the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kansas.

  • No, please return. The anti-gays posting here are no more “religious” than the Man In The Moon. Please keep debunking anti-gay lies.

  • Once again, you’ve misidentified anti-gays as “religious people,” just as the recent spate of anti-gay laws from GOP dominated legislatures are falsely labelled “freedom of religion.”

    Homophobia is a mental disorder, NOT a “religious belief.”

  • Anti-gays always stoop to posting personal attacks. Fortunately, by doing so, anti-gays demonstrate their hatred they deny.

  • You have missed the point. The subject concerns the United Methodist Church, a CHRISTIAN organization. What are you?

  • Not true, Ermle. There are people with membership in the UMC that say that scripture is infallible, but they are interlopers. The official teaching is that scripture is true only if understood in the context of tradition, reason, and the presence of the Holy Spirit (love).

  • Sorry, but we know the majority of American Christians support marriage equality:

    “More than six in ten (62 percent) white mainline Protestants support same-sex marriage. Among white mainline Protestant denominations, support ranges from 69 percent support among white mainline Presbyterians and 68 percent among both white Episcopalians and white Congregationalists/United Church of Christ members, to lower support among white mainline Baptists (53 percent) and white mainline Church of Christ/Disciples (50 percent).

    And while the Catholic Church officially opposes the legalization of same-sex marriage, about six in ten white (61 percent), Hispanic (60 percent), and other non-white Catholics (60 percent) support allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry legally. A majority of orthodox Christians (56 percent) also support same-sex marriage.

    The most supportive major religious groups are Buddhists (84 percent), Jews (77 percent), and Americans who select “Other religion” (75 percent); additionally, more than three-quarters (77 percent) of the religiously unaffiliated also support same-sex marriage.”

    http://publicreligion dot org/2015/04/attitudes-on-same-sex-marriage-by-religious-affiliation-and-denominational-family/# dot VbUcrRNVhBe

  • I’m an AMERICAN. I’m commenting because anti-gays are still trying to subvert our United States Constitution. If you don’t like the documentation I post here, don’t read it. The Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kansas operates a website you will like better.

  • You are trying to spread an anti-gay LIE. Science has proven sexual orientation is inborn and unchangeable. The US Supreme Court, several US federal and several US State Supreme Courts have examined that evidence and ruled that discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is similarly unconstitutional as discrimination based on race because BOTH are IMMUTABLE characteristics. A quick look on any search engine on the phrase “Physiological Basis of Homosexuality” turns up over 26,000 articles, the vast majority supporting the biological basis of same sex attraction, but NONE of them have any PROOF for the wild claim anti-gays make that “it’s a choice.”

  • Did he tell you that you must stop speaking or else?

    I thought disagreement wasn’t silencing people, but an opening to conversation.

    I liked that you put “religious” in quotes. DOes that mean this is satire?

  • Because it is religion news service, not fundelibangelist news service. You want to have only a certain kind of discussion, visit Franklin Gramham or National Organization for Marriage.

  • Yes, it is a Christian organization that is tearing itself apart over their better, loving natures, and theirworse, not so loving natures. specifically, whether gay people are like all of the other people, or in a special category– and not a good one– all of our own. There are some so called religious people, especially in Africa, who advocate for our execution or imprisonment, with only a rare protest even from OUR side, and far too many so called Christians at home who have made careers out of trying to exclude us from society.

    So, in fact,but his discussion among the Methodists very much concerns us. eventually, the civilized members will have to make a choice. They can follow their better Natures, or follow their worse.

  • What are you doing? Trying to “come out” or something? Nobody here could care less.

  • Infallible?

    That’s why there are female ministers and divorced people. That’s why they are always indemnity the lies and sanders of people like the FRC and NOM. That’s why they are at forefront of banning alcohol.

  • You seem to have some problems. With all due respect, are you free or are you institutionalized somewhere? Run free, man, run free.

  • Reality can be a real problem for some people. That’s why you refuted my statement so brilliantly. But whatever you need to believe.

  • Someone deleted all of TEMP’s comments. that was wrong, wrong, wrong.

    Of course his comments were offensive. They were intended to be. But the answer to bad speech is more speech, not censorship. He was being answered.

    People need to see bigotry for what it is– not religious belief, and certainly not love.

  • Oh, for goodness sake. Now I finally get it– you mean to tell me most Americans support marriage equality??? Well that right there’s a great reason for a church to abandon timeless Biblical principles and go along with the mob mentality…
    ***CAUTION!!! ^Post dripping with flagrant sarcasm^***

  • Relax, no loving, committed same gender American couple will ever want to be married by Maggie Phelps-Roper in your Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kansas.

    Hey, don’t you have a funeral you want to trash somewhere?

  • These denominations will marry same gender couples: Affirming Pentecostal Church International, Alliance of Christian Churches, Anointed Affirming Independent Ministries, The Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Community of Christ, Conservative Judaism, Ecumenical Catholic Church, Ecumenical Catholic Communion, The Episcopal Church, Evangelical Anglican Church In America, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals, Inclusive Orthodox Church, Moravian Church Northern Province, Metropolitan Community Church, Old Catholic Church, Presbyterian Church USA, Progressive Christian Alliance, Reconciling Pentecostals International, Reconstructionist Judaism, Reform Judaism, Reformed Anglican Catholic Church, Religious Society of Friends (Quakers), Unitarian Universalist Church, United Church of Christ, Unity Church

  • “More than six in ten (62 percent) white mainline Protestants support same-sex marriage. Among white mainline Protestant denominations, support ranges from 69 percent support among white mainline Presbyterians and 68 percent among both white Episcopalians and white Congregationalists/United Church of Christ members, to lower support among white mainline Baptists (53 percent) and white mainline Church of Christ/Disciples (50 percent).

    And while the Catholic Church officially opposes the legalization of same-sex marriage, about six in ten white (61 percent), Hispanic (60 percent), and other non-white Catholics (60 percent) support allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry legally. A majority of orthodox Christians (56 percent) also support same-sex marriage.

    The most supportive major religious groups are Buddhists (84 percent), Jews (77 percent), and Americans who select “Other religion” (75 percent); additionally, more than three-quarters (77 percent) of the religiously unaffiliated also support same-sex marriage.”

    http://publicreligion dot org/2015/04/attitudes-on-same-sex-marriage-by-religious-affiliation-and-denominational-family/# dot VbUcrRNVhBe

  • While I agree that it’s best all Americans see how devious, dishonest, hurtful and disloyal to America anti-gays are, and that the unacceptable behavior of anti-gays is the principal engine of their crushing political defeat, if I remember correctly, that particular sock puppet was promoting genocide against anyone who even supports equality for LGBT Americans. This is a private website, and I respect their preference to delete such filth.

    But don’t worry for that enraged, defeated anti-gay poster’s freedom of speech. He created that sock puppet expressly for this thread. We can be sure he has many more sock puppets and is spamming another thread even now.

  • You bolster my point and I thank you.

    “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” Mt 7:13-14

    I choose not to follow these heretics down the popular and wide road to destruction.

    Again I encourage you with Jesus’ words: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” Mt 4:17

  • Absolutely. I agree on all points.
    Except that if the website was responsible, or even if DISQUS was, I would still not want to see those comments deleted. People need to understand what is actually going on, and see this religion-justified hatred for what it so clearly is.

  • Your point is you reject the United States Constitution’s guarantee of Freedom Of Religion. Americans have noticed anti-gays are still trying to subvert our Constitution and force their immoral and unAmerican “beliefs” onto Americans. Please continue to reveal anti-gays’ unAmerican agenda.

  • ” Well that right there’s a great reason for a church to abandon timeless Biblical principles”

    Timeless principles like genocide of unbelievers, racism, slavery, treating women as chattel property, polygamy, autocracy… Lets face it, a lot of Biblical principles are anti-social garbage in a modern society. They don’t contribute to the betterment of mankind. Just misery for its own sake. We can add anti-gay bigotry to that as well

  • Interesting because you are choosing a path which embraces malice, misery and hostility but claim it would not lead to destruction. Well nobody ever said a religious appeal has to be rational, consistent or make sense in the slightest.

  • I think the point was DannyEastVillage was asking you such a question. Some people are under the impression you have “Ted Haggard Syndrome”.

  • ROTFL, you are truly funny! I grow weary of conversing with a person who tries to tell me what my point is.

    ‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.’ Isaiah 6:9

    But there is hope even for you if you

    “Humble yourself in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.” James 4:10.

    There is nothing more to be said.
    .

  • Then don’t bother posting anti-gay lies here. Don’t expose yourself further to debunking and ridicule.

  • Besides the reprehensible fact that you would advocate for the perpetuation of ancient races that practiced a religion of live human sacrifice of their children in the fire of a fertility idol, you also blame Christianity for the civil laws that applied to an ancient Hebrew theocracy. If that’s not hatred and bigotry I don’t know what is.

    You also conveniently forget that it was Christian abolitionists who were deeply involved in the elimination of slavery in Britain as well as the United States. Christianity also elevated the place of women to one of respect and honor to the point that it was the husband’s responsibility to place the interests of his life second to that of his wife. Racism is condemned in the New Testament so I don’t know what you mean in that respect.

    Were there, and are there bad apples in the bunch who abused the name of Christ for their own purposes? Of course. But why do you have to jump off the cliff and condemn all Christians because there are some outspoken reprobates in it, just as there are in all groups of people? That’s intolerant and bigoted.

    I understand that you and many others equate considering homosexuality to be immoral with hate– but it’s not. Christianity and many other religions are counter to many practices including homosexuality, but to say they are “anti” anyone is not true.

  • “advocate for the perpetuation of ancient races that practiced a religion of live human sacrifice of their children in the fire of a fertility
    idol”

    According to the people who wiped them out to a man. Much like how Nazis would have described the annihilation of the Jews and Slavs, had they won the war. Much like how we justified the genocide of Native Americans.

    Genocide has no excuses, except when discussing religious views. Thank you for demonstrating the relativistic nature of religious morality. Genocide, THE worst crime against humanity possible is perfectly OK if God commanded it. You can even feel better with post facto excuses!

    “You also conveniently forget that it was Christian abolitionists who
    were deeply involved in the elimination of slavery in Britain as well as
    the United States.”

    Who were opposing Christian slavers who were deeply involved in keeping the institution alive. Christianity was used as a tool in the Antebellum South to justify inhumane treatment of human chattel. Without the Christian slavers, and the perpetuation of slavery by various churches, there would be no Christian abolitionists opposing them. Much like breaking one’s leg and then putting it in a cast and then taking credit for the cast.

    “and are there bad apples in the bunch who abused the name of Christ for their own purposes?”

    They are the ones who primarily talk of “timeless principles” or use “sin” as excuses to treat others badly. The “bad apples” are the ones setting the tone of the conversation concerning Christian beliefs. Claiming they are but those who oppose them are not.

    People relying on their Christian faith to act in a socially redeeming and beneficial fashion are extremely rare. So much so they are lionized as special. People relying on their Christian faith to act badly and immorally are more common than dirt.

    Anti-gay bigotry falls under the same category as those other misdeeds people used to justify with Christian belief. It serves no socially redeeming value except to satisfy personal prejudices and to demean others.

  • LOL! Okay. I agree to disagree with all of the above.

    May the virulent toxicity that has apparently enveloped you be remedied soon.

    Blessings.

  • Its a hazard of using canned apologetic arguments without really thinking about them too deeply. You have nothing and are being snitty about it. Duly noted. May you get a clue.

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