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National Cathedral to remove Confederate flag images

A detail of the stained-glass window honoring Confederate General Stonewall Jackson installed at the Washington National Cathedral. Photo courtesy of Washington National Cathedral

WASHINGTON (RNS) The Washington National Cathedral will replace depictions of the Confederate flag in its stained-glass windows with plain glass but maintain adjoining panes honoring Confederate generals for at least two years while it fosters discussions about the church and race relations.

The board of the cathedral announced the decision Wednesday (June 8), almost a year after the South Carolina governor ordered the Confederate flag be removed from its Statehouse grounds. The governor’s action followed the fatal June 17 shootings of nine members of Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, S.C., and revelations that the man accused in the killings had embraced the flag.

A task force spent six months determining what to do with the two windows after former cathedral Dean Gary Hall, responding to the murders, declared, “It is time to take those windows out.” The cathedral’s board concluded that the windows should remain up for now, minus the Confederate flag panes, and serve as a stimulus for discussions, including one scheduled for July 17 titled “What the White Church Must Do.”

A stained-glass window honoring Confederate General Stonewall Jackson installed at the Washington National Cathedral. Photo courtesy of Washington National Cathedral

Stained-glass windows honoring Confederate Generals Robert E. Lee, left, and Stonewall Jackson, right, installed at the Washington National Cathedral. Photo courtesy of Washington National Cathedral

“(T)he windows provide a catalyst for honest discussions about race and the legacy of slavery and for addressing the uncomfortable and too-often avoided issues of race in America,” the task force stated in its report. “Moreover, the windows serve as a profound witness to the Cathedral’s own complex history in relationship to race.”


RELATED STORY: A year after the Charleston church shooting, what has changed?


In the letter announcing the decision, cathedral board members acknowledged that there are intense feelings about the best way to handle the controversial windows.

“We have heard from those who feel strongly that the windows should stay intact as uncomfortable reminders of our shared history, others who believe that the windows should be removed entirely, and some who feel that the windows are appropriate monuments to admirable American leaders,” they said.

Asked if removing the panels featuring the flag but keeping the depictions of the Confederate generals was a compromise, Kevin Eckstrom, the cathedral’s chief communications officer, said, “The windows have prompted the questions and now we hope they’re going to be part of the discussion that helps us get to the answers.”

The cathedral is determining the cost and how soon the flag depictions will be replaced. Officials said private donors will cover the cost.

After the discussion process — during which cathedral officials said they will examine its other artwork that refers to its racial legacy — a decision will be made about the future of the windows honoring Confederate Generals Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson.

“The Lee-Jackson windows are clear on their message of saluting heroism,” the task force said in its 17-page report. “Yet, they also present an opportunity to tell additional stories of the lives oppressed by the institutions Lee and Jackson fought to preserve.”


RELATED STORY: Washington Cathedral dean on Confederate flags: ‘It is time to take those windows out’


The cathedral, which opened in 1912, was first approached about a window honoring Lee in 1931. Bishop of Washington James Lee, who served from 1922-1944, responded that a memorial to Robert E. Lee “should be as beautiful in character as was his notable life.” The cathedral later decided to honor Jackson as well. The side-by-side panes were dedicated in 1953.

The decision comes as other congregations and religious groups are re-examining race relations and past support for Confederate flags.

A Dallas pastor has proposed a resolution for the upcoming annual meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention that would call on people and institutions to “discontinue displaying the Confederate Battle Flag” in honor of the nine Emanuel AME members.

Response to the proposal, which will be considered by a committee, has been mixed, said Roger S. Oldham, spokesman for the denomination’s Executive Committee.

“We’ve gotten a few emails and phone calls,” he said. “Some have been affirming what some would call the heritage or tradition side of things and others affirming that the time for that flag has passed.”

About the author

Adelle M. Banks

Adelle M. Banks, production editor and a national reporter, joined RNS in 1995. An award-winning journalist, she previously was the religion reporter at the Orlando Sentinel and a reporter at The Providence Journal and newspapers in the upstate New York communities of Syracuse and Binghamton.

216 Comments

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  • Please keep removing the history of this nation…..History doesn’t matter…Particularly if it was in any way troubling.
    It is important that we try to forget the past and all the context of these past events.
    We need to have our history as soundbites and they must not offend anyone.

  • Whitewashing it doesn’t help anyone either. The South had over a century and a half of pretending the Confederacy was something to be extolled in the modern era. You still have people objecting to realistic portrayals of slavery or saying that “slavery wasn’t so bad” with a straight face. In this day and age it is as worthy for national honors as a swastika would be in Germany.

  • These “progressives” actually believe they’re not like ISIS or the Taliban…or the Cultural Revolution in China back in the 60s. But they are the same. It’s the same spirit. The same mindless intolerance.

  • I compared those who want to erase history with ISIS, the Taliban, and the Cultural Revolution in China. I left out one other comparison- the Nazis. They also erased history.

  • That is not the case here. These cathedral windows depict a part of our shared history. Bad and good.
    In fact slavery existed under the U.S. flag for far longer than in the confederacy.
    In the early 20th century, President Grover Cleveland and 100,000 people attended the dedication of a monument in Chicago over
    a mass grave of confederate soldiers who died in a union pow camp.
    A confederate flag was flown at this monument.
    It was done in the spirit of reconciliation between brothers who fought against one another.
    At the same time, union cemeteries in the south were being tended with care and respect.
    All to acknowledge our shared history and to put the past behind us.
    Now in shallow mean spirited political correctness, flags are being banned
    in cemeteries with confederate war dead.
    I have even read comments in some discussions on this topic where
    people have said the bodies of confederate soldiers should be disinterred from cemeteries where U.S. veteran are buried.
    Is this what we really want?

  • So lying about history is better? Of course not. Existence of historical events is not the same as entitlement to be honored. The confederate flag does not belong on symbols of national honor. It is a symbol of treason against the nation.

    Feel free to continue your hyperbole and really awful analogy.

  • “embraced the flag?” TWO photos of the murderer holding a Confederate stick flag were found. There were also photos of him holding a U.S. Flag. Why is that flag not being removed from view? PLEASE continue this cultural purge. It really helps for the rest of us to know where NOT to visit. God help these congregations that have completely lost their way. God WILL vindicate…

  • “So lying about history is better?”

    Your statement and attitude confirm exactly what I said.
    *You* get to decide what is “true.”

  • “In fact slavery existed under the U.S. flag for far longer than in the confederacy.”

    Is it worth honoring now? No.

    “President Grover Cleveland and 100,000 people attended the dedication of a monument in Chicago over a mass grave of confederate soldiers who died in a union pow camp.”

    So what was the reaction when Reagan laid a wreath on the graves of SS soldiers at Bitburg?

    How does Korea and China react when the Japanese Prime Minister visits the Yasukune Shrine where Class A war criminals are memorialized?

    The South had a pretty good run in whitewashing their history up until the midpoint of the 20th Century. But times change. The confederacy is seen these days as a symbol of racism and oppression. Akin to a swastika.

    “All to acknowledge our shared history and to put the past behind us.”

    People who are seeking to preserve the Confederate symbolism are not looking to put the past behind us. They are seeking to invoke it in the present. To whitewash and revise all that it entailed.

    “I have even read comments in some discussions on this topic where
    people have said the bodies of confederate soldiers should be disinterred from cemeteries where U.S. veteran are buried.”

    That strikes me more like extreme hyperbole than a common reaction.

  • One panel has “Mexico” on it referring to the war with Mexico. The illegal aliens will be offended by that. That one will have to go. In fact, there’s probably something on every panel that would offend somebody. Just remove them all.

  • Facts decide what is true. Records decide what is true. You are not entitled to your own facts.

    Show me a proponent of retaining Confederate symbolism in public places who isn’t engaging in revisionism?

    Its pretty rife within that community. Their arguments depend on misrepresenting history or making material omissions of fact.

  • Don’t forget to compare the window wreckers to the “progressive” French revolutionaries who broke the irreplaceable windows at St. Denis and Notre Dame.

  • I think the subject of this story was the stained glass depictions in the window of the national cathedral.
    Should the flag images be removed?
    Since these widow depict the history of our nation and I support history unvarnished and unedited, I think it is a politically correct over reaction.
    You clearly feel differently.
    Having stained glass depictions of a flag that is in a historical context is not exactly “whitewashing history” or honoring confederate
    symbolism.
    If it is, then so are pictures of the flag in history books.
    When I asked the question “Is this what we really want?” at the end of my prior post regarding acknowledging our shared history and putting the past behind us.
    As the Civil War veterans did some years after the war.
    I wasn’t sure what your answer would be.
    The fact that you are seemingly in favor of removing the stained glass tell the tale.
    Answer this.
    If the glass removal is not an over reaction, what is?

  • So what about the history of our nation is being depicted by confederate symbolism? Anything that is interpreted positively today? Nope.

    Your argument fails to make the conclusions it calls for. The confederate flag took on a level of symbolism after the war as representing white supremacy. Ignoring that as you do is whitewashing history. Your problem is an overall lack of honesty here. You want to talk about history, heritage and symbols without dealing with details or context.

    As to answer your final question, your argument is an overreaction. A bad faith attempt to preserve an ethos symbolized in stained glass

  • Normally I would chalk this up to you being a”Poe”. But being this is a subject which brings all the neo confederate dicknuts out and your prior posting history I know you are not. You are just a run of the mill racist a$$hole troll. I won’t even bother to dignify such a ridiculous remark.

  • Because Mexico no longer exists? Jeez you now confederates are so intellectually barren and dishonest.

  • The fact is, Jackson was an advocate of educating the colored people, free and slave, started a Sunday school class for them where they were taught to read the Bible, continued to send money back to support that class even during the war up until his death, and that Sunday school class became the congregation of First Baptist Church in Lexington, VA in 1867. The flag depicted in those windows has nothing to do with tyranny or treason, it was never the flag of a country, it was the flag of an army, under which many noble, moral men fought and died, two of whom are memorialized by those windows…the flag was a PART of who they were, not a summation of their lives, but a notable part that should be remembered. The windows should be a catalyst for intelligent people to try to find out why these people are memorialized, to educate themselves beyond what society has taught them. With very little effort, you might be surprised at who these two men really were. While you’re at it, check into what Lincoln said about slaves, if I were you, I would be taking his memorials down faster.

  • Because the confederate flag has a modern connotation with white supremacy and racist violence. If you want to blame anyone for that blame segregationists and the KKK. They are the ones who sullied the reputation of the flag of seditious citizens who fought to keep humans as chattel property.

  • Burning books, banning flags and destroying historical artifacts in an effort to erase the history of those who dared to stand up to the Fed, is a transition into totalitarianism.
    Americans have now become the biggest bunch of useful idiots and cowards. Check into the treatment and hatred of Blacks in the North and you will see there is no moral high ground. Union soldiers raped Black woman and little girls and stole from poor Black people. In the New York riots they burned the Black orphanage and lynched every unfortunate Black they caught on the streets. Northern whites, including Lincoln, wanted NO Blacks in the USA but wanted them to be colonized. This is nothing but a crazed fad of the politically correct liberals who need “safe spaces” where nothing will upset them.

  • It is a good faith attempt to preserve history symbolized in stained glass.
    My last question is not an overreaction.
    I am curious as to where you personally think the scrubbing of history should stop regarding the flag.
    It has already been removed from national cemeteries that have confederate dead.
    Should individual grave markers that have the flag be removed as well?
    Should city and county place and street names be changed.
    Lee county Florida for example.
    My question is a valid one….Where do you stop the scrubbing of history?

  • “The flag depicted in those windows has nothing to do with tyranny or treason, it was never the flag of a country”

    By all means pretend the flag didn’t become a symbol for racism after the war. It gets in the way of your rosy picture of people who fought ultimately for an immoral end. Why be honest about things when whitewashing and revising history is far more satisfying.

  • No it isn’t. It’s an attempt to gloss over a past which should be embarrassing and shameful. your constant omission of historical context especially of over a century of post war use of the flag as a symbol of racism render your argument dishonest.

  • It is very simple my support of the Episcopal church and its programs will end immediately, and I will encourage others of like mind to do the same. The political; correctness that is overtaking our country by the progressive movement is more divisive and a set back to the improvement in race relations of the last 65 years. We are all Gods children and will be punished accordingly to our actions.

  • The windows are about Lee and Jackson, who died in 1870 and 1863, respectively, they have nothing to do with the morons who hi-jacked the flag and abused it to their own agendas almost 100 years later.

  • Yes, Yes, just tear it down the whole Cathedral and all others in the US after all they offend the atheists.

  • The difference between you and I is that I have studied the war, the politics, and the players in depth, far beyond a public school history education, and I have read first hand accounts of what was being fought for, and have an understanding of the mindset at the time. I understand history IN CONTEXT.

  • But the morons who hijacked the flag ruined it for everyone. This is why some people can’t have nice things.

    Its like any kind of modern lutheran church or hindu temple which uses a swastika will raise hell for doing it. Sure it was their religious symbol long before what’s his name. But you can’t realistically separate the two anymore. Sorry about that.

  • They could, and should be separated by educating people about the history, but that will never be possible when the politically correct erase all of the history.

  • Same Same ISIS destroying everything with any historical value in Iraq. You can destroy history, Brainwash students, but the South will never forget. If one glass comes down or one monument comes down then all them should come down.

  • Get your history straight, Lincoln pushed an amendment thru congress to make slavery permanent and irrevocable in the constitution, all the southern states had to do was stay in the union and vote to ratify it, guess what, they still left. This political correctness has run amuck, if we are removing everything that has to do with slavery we must start with George Washington, he owned 300 slaves, rename Washington DC and take down the Washington monument, even Thomas Jefferson had children with his slaves, all of this is a pathetic agenda.

  • Wow, you really have the politically correct version down good, akin to the swastika??? The southern states left the union, then were invaded, the south did not want a war, the Nazi’s wanted to take the world over and erase the jews, just pathetic.

  • Yes it is embarrassing that this country decided to write a false history and teach that history in our schools. Lincoln was the worst president this country ever had, he was responsible for the deaths of over 600,000 americans, if you think it was a war to free slaves you should ask for the money back that you paid for your education.

  • None of your assertions dispute a word I just said.

    But guess what, no matter how much you want to cast aspersions on the man who led the nation through the Civil War and end of slavery, it still stands to reason that the Confederacy left the nation over the right to own slaves. They were so committed to making slavery an integral part of their nature they committed treason over it. Washington and Jefferson don’t get a pass on criticism over owning slaves. But they never made it the most important thing about their being. Confederates made slavery their one true political belief.

    Here is somethings the neo-confederates just don’t get:
    1. The Confederacy was not only the losing side of the Civil War but the wrong one as well. They fought to enslave human beings.
    2. The confederate flag became the representation for white supremacy and segregation after the war. It has retained that connotation to this day
    3. Slavery was bad. It does not warrant excuses or phony assertions of being a good thing

  • Riiight. You can just pretend that stuff just doesn’t exist. Denial has been such a winning strategy here. Sorry buddy. The Confederate flag is a symbol of racism. Even if it wasn’t originally so, it is now. The desire to keep it around is motivated entirely by a complete and utter lack of consideration of the people who bore the scars of the evil perpetrated by those who sported it. Its not about preserving history. Its about keeping the phony baloney revisionist take on history which was so dominant from Reconstruction until the mid 1950’s.

    History is not being erased. It is being criticized. Seen in a different light. Sorry if your rosy, sanitized, revisionist images of the Confederacy are undone by facts concerning the horrific system it fought to protect.

  • Is the postwar misuse of the flag reflected in the church windows?
    If so, I didn’t notice.
    I also noticed you didn’t answer the question at the end of my post.

  • It is now. The excuses being laid on in support of the flag are pretty ridiculous. You want to keep up a nonsense revisionist take on history which is long past its expiration date. Keep pretending that the flag can be viewed in any way other than a support of white supremacy in this day and age. Its complete laughable nonsense. The racism of such supporters is always just below the surface. It doesn’t take much for it to come out in full fury.

    “My question is a valid one….Where do you stop the scrubbing of history?”

    When it finally is accurate. When we can clear it of dishonest revisionist nonsense which pervaded it..

  • Your lack of education is what’s getting in your way, that flag is the symbol of St Andrews cross, first disciple of Christ, look at the flag of Scotland, that’s where the design came from.

  • I have seen your posts. Your historical references are sophomoric. The Civil War was going to happen one way or the other. Slavery was literally tearing the nation apart. If not Lincoln, then his successor. Unless slavery was abolished by political means secession was inevitable. War was inevitable. Saying Lincoln was responsible for the entirety of the Civil War is monumentally ignorant or dishonest. The entire conflict about expansion of slavery into various territories was simmering for decades. Bloody Kansas anyone?

    I have yet to see a neo-confederate, supporter of confederate imagery who wasn’t a closet (or outright) racist at heart. Someone annoyed that the previous revisionist nonsense historical view is being supplanted by more realistic and accurate depictions.

  • The confederate flag is just like the swastika. Both are symbols which had fairly innocuous connotations before a major conflict. Both took became symbols of white supremacy and terror after those wars. Because of that use, both are deeply offensive to those who were on the receiving end of white supremacy terror.

    Your argument is like the ones used by Neo-nazi revisionists. Adolph Hitler didn’t really want a war. He just wanted freedom for German speaking people displaced by the previous war all over Central Europe. Hitler united the German speaking peoples of Czechoslovakia and Poland and had the world turn against him. [I believe David Irving actually used that argument]

    Modern day Confederate apologists are full of [email protected] It all boils down to people who want to excuse or minimize the evils of slavery and the problems for the nation which it caused.

  • Political correctness run amuck by people that are not educated to the true religious meaning of that flag, St Andrews Cross, first disciple of Christ.

  • The difference is you idolize the war and its figures and engage in a revisionist nonsense which was dominant for decades after it. You also just want to handwave away the history following the war and more importantly the meaning of the flag you want to keep around. Its not about the Civil War anymore. Its about defending symbols which were used in service of terrorism after the war. It is deeply dishonest to ignore that.

    Do us all a favor. When you guys do your little Civil War re-enactments, use real bullets. Save us all the headache.

  • False equivalence is the stock in trade for liberals.
    Most people don’t realize that the secession started out peacefully and federal troops were leaving many posts in the south when the states asked then to.
    It was only after Lincoln was inaugurated that the decision was made to occupy by force federal facilities in southern states.
    The result was foregone when federal troop refused to leave South Carolina territory at Ft. Sumter.
    President James Buchanan even said that the power to compel states to remain in the Union were not among the powers granted by the constitution.
    Nice to see someone who actually knows the history and doesn’t just get the MSNBC version.

  • Your commitment to a clearly dishonest agenda is getting in your way. The confederate flag became a symbol of white supremacy. It is offensive in this day and age*. Get over it.

  • Don’t you have a cross burning to attend to. After all burning a cross was a symbol of unity and piety in Scotland in days of yore. 🙂

  • There are the ad hominem charges of racism without a shred of evidence…..
    How typical.
    It doesn’t surprise me.
    I asked a simple question… What parts of current civil war history are acceptable to you.
    It is an opinion question, so you can’t get the answer wrong.
    Should confederate grave markers be removed?
    Should people be prohibited from owning a confederate flag?
    Why won’t you answer such a basic opinion question?

  • Petty insults is really all you have left. Please by all means pretend the people who committed treason in service of preserving slavery were the good guys in the Civil War.

  • What deep dark hole do you neo-confederates come from?

    None of you are regular posters here. You guys just come out of the woodwork to take up bandwidth on just this one subject.

    The confederate flag became the symbol of white supremacy after the war. White supremacy is seen as a bad thing in this society Deal with it.

  • How is it more accurate to historically to remove confederate flag images in cathedral window battle scenes than to have the battles depicted as they actually happened?

  • Strawman arguments made without a shred of connection to the arguments presented. Coupled with some blatantly dishonest takes on history with a heaping dollop of material omission.

    So how many people here are trying to deny the racist past connotations of the Confederate flag?

    “Should people be prohibited from owning a confederate flag?”

    Never were before. You can own a nazi flag as well if you like. You can even have a cross burning on your property (if you are not violating local fire codes). Its a free country. But you would be foolish to think you can display any of it in public and not draw criticism and ire.

  • I am sorry, I wasn’t addressing you in that post.
    I was only referring to liberals who acquire their knowledge of history
    from Rachael Maddow.
    If you feel you are in that category, being insulted by a post is the
    least of your worries.

  • I wasn’t displaying it, a church was in a historical context.
    This is what this news story addressed.
    I was waiting for you to tell me exactly why a historical display of this type that in no way advocates for the confederacy is a problem.
    It shows battle scenes with both U.S. and C.S.A. armies and their flag.
    exactly how armies appeared on the field of battle.
    No strawman sport….A simple question that you seem to be unable to answer.

  • The revisionism is and always has been done by the Federal government and the north to cover the terrorism perpetrated on the Confederate States of America during and after the war. The so called reconstruction was deconstruction, where the people of a formerly legal and separated country were terrorized into bending to the tyranny of the U.S. You cannot understand those feelings because obviously you are not a descendant of a conquered people who have been judged, lied about and belittled for over a century. The only 2 peoples in the U.S. who can are southerners and the natives to this continent, and I am descended from both. My family never owned a slave, and I can prove that. They did not fight and die to preserve an institution that in no way pertained to them, they fought to defend their country and homes. I am not the one who is close minded and refusing to listen to truth. I have also in no way threatened you or suggested your demise, as you have me. That just shows me what a classy, intelligent person you are. Reenactments are an educational opportunity for individuals who wish to broaden their knowledge and understanding of the history of this country, so I can reasonably assume that I will never see you at one, which is fine with me, I have wasted enough time on you, you can’t teach or reason with someone who wants to remain ignorant.

  • “The revisionism is and always has been done by the Federal government and the north to cover the terrorism perpetrated on the Confederate States of America during and after the war. ”

    [Facepalm] I can’t even pretend that was a statement meant to be taken seriously on the subject. So now you are essentially claiming the KKK were heroes in its mission to turn back the efforts of Reconstruction. Who are you DW Griffith?

    “My family never owned a slave, and I can prove that. They did not fight and die to preserve an institution that in no way pertained to them”

    Well then they were fools who were duped by a slaveholding aristocracy into dying to protect a neo-feudal way of life. It is harsh to think of your ancestors in such a way, but its the truth. Your desire to revise history and falsify facts concerning it appears obvious.

  • The meaning of a flag, or any other symbol, is in the eyes of the beholder. When I, and millions of others, see a Confederate flag, it reminds us of our home, states’ rights and the land for which our ancestors fought and died. Furthermore, you are way out of line placing segregationists in the same category as a perceived “hate” organization. Today, many black students on college campuses are demanding “safe spaces” where whites aren’t allowed. I haven’t heard you and the other liberals condemning any of them as “segregationists.” As for “slavery,” it existed a LOT longer under the US flag than it did under the Confederate flag and not a single slave ship ever flew a Confederate flag, but many flew the US flag.

    When it comes to “seditious citizens,” if your ancestors fought in the American Revolution, then YOU are descended from seditious citizens and every time you salute the US flag, you are saluting a flag of sedition.

  • After accepting the position of President of the Confederacy, President Jefferson Davis said: “The north was mad and blind; it would not let us govern ourselves, and so the war came, and now it must go on till the last man of this generation falls in his tracks, and his children seize the musket and fight our battle, unless you acknowledge our right to self-government. WE ARE NOT FIGHTING FOR SLAVERY. We are fighting for Independence, and that, or extermination.” [Emphasis added]

    Even Abraham Lincoln admitted the War of Northern Aggression wasn’t about slavery. When asked why he didn’t allow the Southern states to go and be done with the matter, for once in his miserable life, he answered truthfully. “I can’t let them go,” he said. “Who would pay for the government?” The War, like just about everything else in this world, was about MONEY!

  • “The confederacy is seen these days as a symbol of racism and oppression. Akin to a swastika.”

    Only a fool sees the Confederacy as a symbol of “racism and oppression.” Justice Clarence Thomas has said on more than one occasion that he was treated better by Southern segregationists than he was by northern liberals. There is just as much (probably more) racism and oppression of blacks in the north than in the South. Are you forgetting that back in the ’60s when blacks were rioting, there were more riots in northern cities than in Southern cities? If things were so fantastic and they were so “equal” to whites up there, why were they rioting? The most violent race riots occurred in New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, California and other states that claim to treat blacks as “equals.”

  • They were the “good guys” because they were minding their own business when the north invaded their territory. Southern men (most of whom did not own slaves) were forced to defend their homes and families. Had the north not invaded the South, there wouldn’t have been a war.

  • “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.” – George Orwell, “1984”

    Your problem, Spuddie, is an overall lack of knowledge.

  • If we’re all “racists” down here, why have there been so many more “race riots” in the north, west, etc. than in the South? The worst race riots in the US in the 20th and 21st centuries occurred in Ferguson (2014) Cincinnati (2001), Los Angeles (1992), Attica Prison (1971), Washington, DC (1968), Chicago (1968), Baltimore (1968), Newark (1967), Watts (1965) and Detroit (1943). News Flash: Not one of these locations is in the South! Obviously, you don’t know as much about “racism” as you think you do.

  • Here’s a suggestion: If you find the Confederate flag so “offensive,” don’t look at it! Has someone twisted your arm, forced you into the National Cathedral and insisted you gaze upon this particular stained glass window? If so, instead of whining about the flag, you should contact the police and file a complaint against the person forcing you to look at this objectionable window.

  • Please by all means ignore the existence of “Jim Crow”, the “Southern Strategy” and where the KKK came from. Please by all means, try to divert the discussion with yet another strawman argument and phony representation of the facts here. Please continue pretending that officially sanctioned racism under the color of law never happened.

    The confederate flag is currently used as a symbol of racism. Deal with it.

  • “When I, and millions of others, see a Confederate flag, it reminds us of our home, states’ rights and the land for which our ancestors fought and died. ”

    All of whom are white.

    Black people in the same states and communities see it as a symbol of people who kept them from voting, from civil liberties, who lynched them, burned their homes, assaulted and murdered them.

    Whereas you want to harken back to a whitewashed, sanitized and entirely racist past. Others see something much much different.

  • I’m not diverting the discussion. All I’m asking is why, if the north and other non-Southern locations in the US, are so wonderful, there have been so many violent race riots in those locations. If “racism” wasn’t “sanctioned” in those locations I named, why were blacks so angry they rioted in the streets?

    You say “The Confederate flag is currently used as a symbol of racism,” which proves that a flag has little to do with “racism.” If it did, it stands to reason, there would be more rioting and unrest by blacks down here where we revere and display the Confederate flag.

  • How about this one. Stop being such a 1ying apologist for racism. The flag is a symbol of white supremacy. If it wasn’t before, it is now. If you don’t like that tough luck. That is the fact of the matter. Instead of being a d-bag about it, be honest and acknowledge it. Its not worth the effort put in its defense.

    In fact the defense of the flag is really beginning to look like an effort to cover up some motives its proponents are afraid to air in public.

  • You love accusing others of “dishonesty” without providing one iota of proof of such. And FYI, just because YOU find something “offensive” doesn’t make it offensive to others. Who appointed you arbiter of which symbols are offensive and which are acceptable? There has been a LOT more “racism” under the US flag than the Confederate flag. Have you forgotten the genocide of the American Indians?

  • Let me make this clear to all you wannabe Nathan Bedford Forrests here:
    1. Despite all your yatterings, it does not change the fact the confederate flag was used as a symbol of racism from the end of the Civil War until today. It is a symbol of racism today. That is what is important here.

    2. The South not only was on the wrong side of the Civil War, the world is better off by the fact that they lost and the nation re-united.

    3. There are no arguments in favor of the Confederate flag which can’t also apply to swastikas, rising sun flags and the hammer & sickle.

  • As a sign that Jefferson Davis was a complete and utter piece of human garbage, at the end of the war, he made efforts to try to continue it through irregular means. As a guerilla war. To mire this nation in terrorism, vendettas and murder which would take generations to untangle. Luckily Robert E Lee, being essentially a decent person quashed such notions.

    Btw “President Jefferson Davis”????? Do you think you are still in the Civil War era? That the confederacy is your home? Are you trying to pretend he had legitimate political position in our nation?

    “…the War of Northern Aggression wasn’t about slavery”

    Pretty much anyone who calls the Civil War by that term is not worth taking seriously. So what kind of wood is best for cross burnings? Do you use some kind of accelerant or is that considering cheating?

  • When a person resorts to personal attacks and name-calling, it’s because he has nothing to support his asinine argument.

    At this point in time, I still have the right to call Jefferson Davis “President,” or anything else I choose, and I have the right to correctly call the War of Northern Aggression what it was. If you don’t like what I say, here’s a suggestion: STOP READING MY POSTS!

  • You have been responding to me!

    You have a right to call Jefferson Davis president. Just as I have a right to call you a buffoon for doing so. I even cited a reason to think very poorly of him from a historical perspective.

    Calling the Civil War the war of Northern Aggression is just announcing to the world you are just a delusional revisionist racist. But admittedly not in so many words.

    While you are at it, you can call World War 2 “The War for the Defense of the Greater German and Japanese Homelands”. Its about as honest as your term.

  • How do you know how “black people” see the Confederate flag? Who appointed you spokesman for every black person in the United States? What you are is a racist who considers all blacks inferior and incapable of voicing their opinions and as a result, require an arbiter (i.e., YOU) to speak for them. People like YOU have done more harm to blacks than every white Southerner and KKK member who ever lived. I hope you’re voting for Hillary Clinton. Azealia Banks said Hillary treats blacks like mindless pets and so do YOU.

  • “How do you know how “black people” see the Confederate flag? ”

    Do you look at the news or do you try to get your info by carrier pigeon? Every black advocacy/civil rights organization have been pretty damn clear on the subject.

    “People like YOU have done more harm to blacks than every white Southerner and KKK member who ever lived.”

    I am not making excuses for the symbol representing people who committed lynchings, attacked voting rights and committed more acts of terrorism than any Islamicist ever has in this nation. So no. I have not. 🙂

  • How about this one: stop treating blacks like mindless pets who require your protection, á la Hillary Clinton. But for people like you, Hillary, Obama and other liberals, more than 41 percent of blacks wouldn’t be receiving some sort of public assistance. People like you refuse to acknowledge that blacks can survive without your intervention and/or assistance. But you can’t have that, can you? They might start voting Republican.

    Once again, you’re calling me “dishonest” without one scintilla of proof.

  • The Confederate States of America was as much a “country” as the United States of America. Even your hero Lincoln acknowledged this.

  • “But the morons who hijacked the flag ruined it for everyone.”

    But attempting to totally wipe out an entire race didn’t “ruin” the US flag for everyone? George Washington himself, the father of our country, in his instructions to Gen. John Sullivan, ordered “the total destruction and devastation of their [Indian] settlements … It will be essential to ruin their crops now in the ground and prevent their planting more.” President Andrew Jackson, led so many Indian-killing raids that he earned the nickname “Indian Killer.” In 1862, that “Great Emancipator” Abraham Lincoln, when faced with a Sioux uprising in Minnesota, ordered Gen. John Pope to quash the insurgents, saying, “It is my purpose to utterly exterminate the Sioux. They are to be treated as maniacs or wild beasts, and by no means as people with whom treaties or compromise can be made.” In the West, US soldiers not only massacred Indians, but killed as many buffalo as they could so that the Indians that escaped the flail of bullets would starve to death. If the attempted annihilation of an entire race of people wasn’t “racism,” what would you call it? There have been many more acts of racism committed by men flying the stars and stripes than those flying (or honoring) the Southern Cross.

  • What part of “When a person resorts to personal attacks and name-calling, it’s because he has nothing to support his asinine argument” do you not understand?

  • A country whose existence as a separate polity had to be erased in order to save the entire United States.

  • “But attempting to totally wipe out an entire race didn’t “ruin” the US flag for everyone?”

    No but it makes watching many old westerns much more difficult to stomach. There aren’t too many people trying to depict Custer as a hero anymore. Nor people pretending the Trail of Tears was a justifiable act. Besides Nathan Bedwetter Forrest, nobody uses the American flag as a symbol of genocide. The Confederate flag has a history as the symbol of the KKK and segregationists. They acquired it and made it their own.

  • Hey why don’t you follow your own advice and just not read my posts. Respond to someone else. Write you own original posts.

  • While I appreciate Spuddie’s valiant and noble effort, the fact is for Southerners, their Christian faith is still tied to the glories of slavery and segregation. Like the return of Jesus, they believe that God is going to raise up the Confederacy again, and this time they’ll win. Southerners have never given up the dream of re-staring the Civil War and bringing back slavery. It’s why they cling so desperately to the Confederate flag – it represent the nation they have always remained loyal to.

    There’s a reason why the South is more segregated on Sunday morning than any other time of the week. There’s a reason why all-white Christian schools still thrive in the South. Thor’s a reason why the Christian denomination formed in support of slavery (the Southern Baptist Convention) is still the largest protestant denomination.

  • If YOU looked at the news (or read the news), you would know that so-called “black advocacy/civil rights” organizations are supported by people like YOU, i.e., those who want to keep blacks subservient and dependent on the government. The strings of these organizations are pulled by racists like Al Sharpton, Louis Farrakhan and Barack Obama.

    There have been “lynchings” for thousands of years. The American colonists lynched traitors, murderers, the British and anyone else who crossed them. And what about all those white men lynched in the Old West? Why do you dismiss the lynchings of white people as inconsequential while condemning lynchings in the South? Were those white Americans who suffered death-by-rope somehow less dead simply because they were white?

    You still haven’t explained why, if everything is so rosy for blacks in every part of the United States except the South, there have been so many violent race riots in those other locations, while the South has/had none of any consequence.

  • You didn’t answer my question. In fact, you haven’t answered any of my questions, or those of anyone else.

  • Maybe if Republicans weren’t kissing up to racists, demonizing blacks, attacking their civil liberties and their voting rights, they might get a larger black vote. But that requires an honest appraisal of facts. And by now it is clear that is not your style.

  • The only War of Northern Aggression general who advocated genocide was William Tecumseh Sherman.

    Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest did more for blacks following Reconstruction than any carpetbagging yankee ever did. Forrest contended there was no reason blacks could not be doctors, store clerks, bankers, or in other positions. He told anyone who would listen that blacks needed to be employed as skilled workers so that successive generations of black men would be able to take care of themselves and their families. To prove his point, when he organized the Memphis & Selma Railroad, he took it upon himself to hire blacks as architects, construction engineers, foremen, conductors, and in many other positions of authority.

    But instead of giving the man his due, people concentrate solely on the “atrocities” at Fort Pillow without bothering to ascertain the facts. In fact, Brigadier General James R. Chalmers led the attack on Fort Pillow. Forrest did not arrive until later and if Forrest had not personally intervened and stopped the carnage – many more would have been killed.

  • “The Tuskegee Institute has recorded 3,446 blacks and 1,297 whites being lynched between 1882 and 1968, with the annual peak occurring in the 1890s, at a time of economic stress in the South and political suppression of blacks. A five-year study published in 2015 by the Equal Justice Initiative found that nearly 3,959 black men, women, and children were lynched in the twelve Southern states between 1877 and 1950”

    Even Wikipedia thinks you are full of it.
    https://en.wikipedia dot org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States

    What next, you are going to claim the KKK was just a civic charitable organization?

  • Ha, just take all the windows out. Someone can object to each one of them for one reason or another. We have lost our minds.

  • Removing a symbol is not going to improve race relations. It is like saying remove the statue of Mary in the Catholic Church so Protestants will not be offended. It would not stop Catholic devotions to Mary. HISTORY has a place in society. When I look at the confederate symbol I think “I do not ever want to go there again.”

  • What is it about my posts that are “ridiculous”? You call me dishonest, ridiculous, etc., but refuse to answer a single question because you can’t.

  • Wikipedia? Are you serious? If one believes the rubbish in Wikipedia, then “Death in the Afternoon” by Ernest Hemingway is a novel about Spanish whores, Ted Cruz is the Zodiac Killer, and Bill Gates has horns.

    Even if this particular Wikipedia entry hasn’t been vandalized, would one expect anything else from a study conducted at the Tuskegee Institute?

  • Because our “Mexican-American” citizens, be they legal or illegal, could object to the fact that there was even a war with Mexico. See how simple that is. It doesn’t have to make sense.

  • From an earlier Comment of mine to an equally absurd story rife with Ignorance and Intolerance……
    The Flag shown in the photo is actually the “Army Of Tennessee” variety and is a Battle/Soldiers Flag, not a National (the first of those was the “Stars & Bars”)! It is NOT a Banner of “Racism & Hate”….and was never used as such prior to it’s being hi-jacked by some Klan & Segregationists in the late 1950’s (who have always used the US Flag)! The SCV (Sons of Confederate Veterans) is a “multicultural” heritage & historical organization founded in 1896 as the natural torch bearers of the UCV….who always included and even celebrated it’s Black Confederate Veteran Members! The “Flag” (in all it’s patterns & variations) is in recognition of the Service & Sacrifice of our CSA Ancestors, a symbol of Southern Pride, and an internationally recognized symbol of Resistance to Tyranny!

    Slavery was Legal in 1861 and in NO jeopardy at that time…..in fact after the South legally seceded (by consent of the governed), Lincoln & the Congress passed the Corwin Amendment, which offered the South “Perpetual Slavery” if it would lay down arms, rejoin the Union, and of course catch up on those Taxes (which supported MOST of the Nation)!!!? So….the 95% who didn’t own Slaves, let this opportunity slip by so they could slog through 4 years of hell with an immense loss of “Blood and Treasure”, so the other 5% could have “Perpetual Slavery? {{{SMH}}}

    There was no Rebellion, or Civil War, or attempt to overthrow the US Government, and the only Traitor was in fact Abe Lincoln (my 5th/5x Cuz, BTW) himself! No…..no one in their right mind is advocating for the reestablishment of Slavery, and in fact Slavery’s days were numbered even w/o the War, and is doubtful it would have lasted another 20 years, and with far better results & relations for all parties involved…..w/o the loss of 750,000 of America’s Finest! For example I found that I had a 4th G Uncle who owned a sizeable KY Plantation….in his 1853 (8 yrs before the War) Will, he freed all his slaves and left them half his Estate (total wealth)! This was not an uncommon occurrence at that time, and there were actually more FPC’s in the South in 1860 than in the North, where US Slavery actually began and was the major importation hub for African Slaves!?

    When I’m out Flagging here in TX, flipping the Peace sign…..it kills me when you “Tolerant Progs” drive by flipping me off and calling me a RACIST and all other manner of foul “stuff” when you have no idea about me, or what I’m all about!? I like to holler back “Would you like some History to go with all that Hate?”! I have been a student of the South, and the War since I could walk (50+ years) and just cringe at the mass proliferation of IGNORANCE and Anti-Southern PROPAGANDA run amok throughout modern society and our educational institutions! You can find me on F/B at “Frank & Jesse James”, Thank you! ~JVP, TX [><]

  • My arguments are not even remotely like those used by today’s neo-Nazis and you know it. But I have a question: Why do you brand us “white supremacists,” but not George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, et al., who wanted to annihilate the American Indians?

    And why haven’t you explained all those race riots that seem to occur in just about every part of the United States EXCEPT the South? Why can’t you admit to yourself that racism isn’t exclusively Southern? I know you’ll never admit it to anyone else because that would put a kink in your liberal agenda.

  • Lord, we’re embarrassed, we’re ashamed, what do you want us to do, get down and roll in the floor? Shoot ourselves? Slaves in America were not firsts, unique, or special. Been happening to all peoples of all colors for thousands of years. Still happening today. If your ancestors had never been brought out of Africa, you’d be digging roots for food and bathing in a river somewhere. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

  • Democrats are determined to keep blacks subservient. The only difference between blacks in the US today and before the War of Northern Aggression is that back then, they served the master and mistress of the plantation and now they serve the liberal Democrats.

  • Careful, you’ll render him speechless and confused. Then we will be without the honor of having to listen to his ramblings.

  • “Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest did more for blacks following Reconstruction than any carpetbagging yankee ever did. ”

    Like use them to decorate trees and lamp posts. Can you be a bigger BS artist than to make the claim that one of the founders of the KKK had a legitimate concern for the rights and existence of black people? I can’t even pretend you are being remotely credible here.

    At this point the only reaction to you neo-confederate closet racist 1iars is to facepalm. I am done bothering to correct your blatant untruths and revisionist takes on history.

  • I know about 2 dozen Black-CSA Descendants who’ll set you straight real quick Snottie…..come see me on “Frank & Jesse James” in F/B!!

  • I know that several thousand black people in and supporting the NAACP think quite differently.
    http://www.naacp dot org/blog/entry/resolution-naacp-ends-boycott-of-south-carolina
    “The Confederate Battle Flag is a symbol of racial, ethnic and religious hatred, oppression, and murder which offends untold millions of people”

  • and in the words of the NAACP
    “The Confederate Battle Flag is a symbol of racial, ethnic and religious hatred, oppression, and murder which offends untold millions of people”
    http://www.naacp dot org/blog/entry/resolution-naacp-ends-boycott-of-south-carolina

    “The resolution passed Tuesday night marks a clear recognition by a new generation that symbols based on preserving segregation and oppression have no place in public colleges.”
    http://www.naacp dot org/news/entry/naacp-commends-ole-miss-naacp-on-removal-of-confederate-flag

  • Do you realize how racist you sound with that?

    Your argument is “Blacks are too stupid to realize they are better served by Republicans”. Riiight. They are all just being duped. Nothing else at play here at all. Ridiculous beyond words.

  • “Lord, we’re embarrassed, we’re ashamed, what do you want us to do, get down and roll in the floor? ”

    Not make excuses for imagery associated with slavery, discrimination and white supremacy would be a start. Not making excuses for slavery would be another.

    Without slavery millions of black people would not have died in transit in the mid Atlantic. Millions more would have eventually ended up citizens of European colonies in Africa and later independent nations.

  • Actually they are exactly the same. Even to the point of relying on revisionist takes on history. They consider it part of their history and heritage. Something not to be ashamed of, despite the misery and atrocity committed in service of such ideas.

    “Why do you brand us “white supremacists,” but not George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, et al., who wanted to annihilate the American Indians?”

    Because they had the benefit of historical perspective and the acknowledgment that those were less enlightened times. You do not. You know better.

  • Spoken like a true purveyor of BS. I haven’t see the wikipedia entries you are referring to.

  • Sorry, I am a proud Southerner and an Atheist…..But your stereotyping is fun.
    Like all stereotyping, it keeps you from wearing out your brain by using it.

  • Excuses for slavery? Just stating facts. Uh-huh. Africa is doing so great, they have people jumping borders trying to get there. They have to fight off people trying to come in. ‘Millions’ died in transit? Excuse me–You need to put that pipe away.

  • Of course not. You are trying to pretend 150 years of use of a confederate flag as a symbol of racism never existed. Why trouble yourself with facts?

  • I too am a Southerner (Tennessee, Georgia, Mississippi, and presently Louisiana) and an agnostic/non-religious. I’m not proud of my fellow Southerners who still talk longingly of slavery and the Confederacy rising again. Racism and Christianity still go hand-in-hand in the South. Save for a few enclaves like Atlanta, Nashville, and New Orleans that is.

  • Do you actually KNOW where the KKK came from? It was originally founded to counter the actions of Federally backed white men like Parson “Bloody Bill” Brownlow, whose aim was to take everything away from Confederate soldiers forever, long after the war was over. Brownlow and those like him are the ones who set race relations on the path we are on now. Lee, Forrest, and many others went home intent on peace and reconciliation. What they got in return was hate and theft.
    Interestingly, when Brownlow left the government of Tennessee, Forrest ordered the KKK to disband. Then along came people like you.

  • Next you are going to tell me they were just a civic charitable organization. That they were just misunderstood and defamed by those evil civil rights agitators. /sarcasm.

    We all can do without apologists for one of the most pervasive domestic terror organization in our nation.

    But thank you for demonstrating the dishonesty and inherent racism under the surface of all that neo confederate nonsense.

  • Thank you for demonstrating that behind all this neo confederate support of the former battle flag is a full blown racist mentality just under the surface.

  • It seems the best you can do to dignify it is to use profanity and call names. Not much of a case.

  • You don’t deserve much else. Some statements are not worth dignifying or taking seriously.

  • “If “racism” wasn’t “sanctioned” in those locations I named, why were blacks so angry they rioted in the streets?”

    Because segregation was not the only issue affecting black people at the time. Of course putting sanctioned in quotes points to how dishonest your argument is. Trying to pretend there was no difference between racism given color of law and racism pervasive in mainstream society in general.

    “The Confederate flag is currently used as a symbol of racism,” which proves that a flag has little to do with “racism.”

    Except…as a symbol of it. Just as the words stated plainly. You clearly understand what symbols are. So its not your reading comprehension which is at issue, but your intellectual honesty.

  • “Justice Clarence Thomas has said on more than one occasion that he was treated better by Southern segregationists than he was by northern liberals. ”

    Clarence Thomas is not one of the bright spots on the SCOTUS lineup. If Southern segregationists had their way, he would never have been able to go to law school, let alone be on the Supreme Court.

  • “If you find the Confederate flag so “offensive,” don’t look at it!”

    I’m curious . . . Would you also say, “If you find the Rainbow flag so “offensive,” don’t look at it!?”

    And, by the way, I feel that the Confederate flag images should remain on those church windows . . . because they are historic artifacts which contribute to documenting one of the ugliest aspects of American history, and it should not be ‘swept under the rug.’ However, flying the Confederate flag is an entirely different matter, and it should be banned on all government property.

  • At least one of the pictures was photo shopped. Take a look at how his finger is on the flag staff. Try holding a flag that way. It is impossible you would have to break your finger.

  • Also ban any African flag and the Portuguese, Dutch, Spanish and British and U.S. flags. All of these either sold or brought slaves over and the Confederacy was at the end of the chain.

  • I would say the north has done a lot better job white washing their history. Massachusetts was the first colony to make slavery legal Connecticut was the second and Georgia was the last. At the time of the Revolution there were more slaves in New York than there were in Georgia. Yankee New England ship owners went to Africa and bought slaves from Africans and brought them back to the west and sold them. The south was the last place to get slavery yet they get the blame for it.

  • I wonder how many people know that Ft. Sumter was started in 1829 and was still unfinished and unoccupied when SC seceded. The Yankees slipped into the fort in the dead of night which could be considered an act of war.

  • Slavery didn’t end in Brazil until 1888. Most likely it would have ended in the south before that.

  • The original KKK was started for protection from carpet baggers and blacks running wild.

  • Lol! “Blacks running wild”. You are totally not racist. Not one bit. /sarcasm.

    Go back to sending angry letters to WGN for the show Underground or posting nasty comments about the remake of the Roots miniseries.

  • If you mean requiring voter ID everyone should be capable of getting an ID. After all you have to show it for everything else why not show it to vote. Oh I know it might actually stop voter fraud.

  • The first black slave owner in the colonies was black. See Anthony Johnson and John Casar.

  • If you’ll look at a picture of a Klan rally back in the twenties they are only carrying U.S. flags.

  • But you would,be wrong. If you are making excuses for slavery or pretending it wasn’t something inherently immoral, you are trying to revise history. Given your comment about the KKK and “blacks running wild” it is clear you just want to give racism a level of respectability. What are you doing online here. Shouldn’t you be outside? Isn’t it peak cross burning season now?

  • Talk about white washed history. The first black slave owner in the colonies was black see Anthony Johnson and John Casar. Massachusetts was the first colony to make slavery legal, Connecticut was the second and Georgia was the last. New England ship owners bought slaves in Africa from Africans and brought them back to the west and sold them. Only about 750,000 of between 9 and 12 million ever came to what is now the U.S. The rest either went to the Caribbean and Brazil. The south was the last place to get slavery yet they get the blame for it.

  • Most of us could object to something till we turn blue in the face and no one would even notice. Only certain ones are paid attention to.

  • Actually up until the1950’s the klan almost exclusively carried the American Flag. I imagine the approaching civil war centennial is what brought more attention to the Confederate Flag.

  • Nobody talks longingly of slavery. The south just didn’t know what to do with them if they were freed. They were stuck between a rock and a hard place. The north had laws keeping blacks out of a lot of states.

  • Brazil’s climate made slavery far more murderous and more dependent on outside slave trade (which was banned by the British and French by force of arms) than the South. Making it far less viable.

    Not that it mattered to you after all. There is that that fear of people like yourself of “blacks running wild”.

  • You mean create unreasonable obstacles for elderly and urban poor from voting for entirely specious reasons. Especially since such groups are typically Democrat voters. Especially when urban DMVs start closing down out of “fiscal responsibility” and there is blatant misinformation provider concerning eligibility.

    Since voter fraud is nearly non existent but vote suppression by ID laws is rife and pervasive.

  • It puzzles me why a cathederal would honor war generals, confederate or union. That is against everything Jesus taught.

  • “This is why some people can’t have nice things.”

    Very funny. And also true, in this instance and so many others.

  • We should be a fly on the wall in some of them. Probably wouldn’t believe our ears. Shades of Rev Wright.

  • You haven’t shown any facts. So it’s been easy. Time for you to stop posting online. Get some fresh air and go burn a cross with the rest if your buddies.

  • You should go find the side of a barn to argue with. It won’t talk back and you can blabber on all you want. You wouldn’t acknowledge a ‘fact’ if it hit you in the face. You’d just go on jacking your jaws. LOL Blah-Blah

  • Why don’t you go somewhere else. You new confederate nabobs only pop your head out to blather on this topic and then just spam it with your revisionist BS.

    It will always boil down to:
    1. Phony narratives denying slavery and white supremacy as the ultimate cause of the civil war.

    2. Pretending anyone has to honor people who fought and died to preserve the barbaric and feudal system of life in the South.

    3. Pretending the long history of using the confederate flag as a symbol of racism and white supremacy never existed or can just be ignored.

    4. Ignoring how [email protected] America would be had the union lost the civil war.

    5. Assorted racist BS such as excuses for slavery, segregation, the kkk and casual bigotry.

    You have nothing of value to say. Now go eff yourself along with the rest of your bedsheet wearing troglodytes and the horses you rode in on.

  • Glad to know that I heard a guy not long ago saying slaves in Brazil were treated as part of the family. BTW there was slavery in Brazil way before the English colonies so although it ended 23 years after the end of the so called Civil War it went on much longer. Of approximately 9 to 12 million slaves that came to the west only about 750,000 came to what is now the U.S. That leaves between 8 million 250 thousand and 11 million 250,000 that went either to the Caribbean or Brazil who were getting slaves before the English colonies even existed. The south was the last place to get slavery yet they get the blame for it. It seems to me the conditions in the Caribbean and Brazil would be closer to the conditions in Africa. As far as the blacks running wild goes take a look around and multiply it by a thousand.

  • Wrong about what? Everything I said is true. Do a little research. I suppose you don’t know the Yankees were feeding them after the war till they finally told them to go to work or starve. Do you really think they were setting around twiddling their thumbs? Quote from a Yankee Irish soldier “It’s a shame it is the government feeding these lazy nagers and neither god nor the divil (Irish accent) can make them werrrrk. (Irish again).

  • LMAO. At this point you should quit while you are behind. The more you post the worse you come off.

    Stick to Stormfront where such statements are not met with laughter.

    Now run along. The weather is nice. I am sure your buddies are out drinking beers and burning crosses on their lawn. You don’t want to miss all the fun.

  • Racist dbag says what?

    Go away Klan troll. Take your hatred of our great nation elsewhere. Go back to spanking it to stories of plantations, overgrown facial hair and owning humans as chattel property.

    I will pray for you
    Bless your heart.

  • At least I know what I am talking about. Apparently you don’t. You think everything was rainbows and unicorns after the war ended until the mean old KKK came along just because they hate rainbows and unicorns.

  • Well dishonest racist morons like to downplay the horrors of the practice. So I am not surprised by your statement.

    Now go eff off and peddle your nonsense on some neo confederate wanksite. Make sure your bedside outfits are clean. Nobody wants to be around hoods which smell of halitosis and goat spooge.

  • Did you know the first one to own a black slave in Jamestown was a black man named Anthony Johnston? Did you know there were plenty of black slave owners? Did you know yankee New England ship owners went to Africa and bought Africans from other Africans and brought them back to the west and sold them? Did you know there were more free blacks in the south than there were in the north? Did you ever hear of the Corwin Amendment which Lincoln endorsed and even sent out to states to sign? In case you didn’t it said if the south would just return to the union they could keep their slaves forever. Did you know that at the time S.C. seceded Ft. Sumter was unfinished and unoccupied? Try doing some research rather than believing all the brainwash crock you were taught in school.

  • I’m not downplaying anything. I think it was the worst thing that ever happened to this country. Unfortunately the hens are coming home to roost and the country is going to hell in a handbasket.

  • FYI, I find the Rainbow flag offensive and I don’t look at it, just as I don’t look at, or listen to, anything about the “celebration” every January of the birthday of a man who was a fraud, plagiarist, embezzler, serial adulterer and abuser of women.

    The Confederate flag, i.e, the Southern Cross, is a Confederate battle flag that NEVER flew over the CSA.

    I find it amazing that people like you and “Spuddie” are constantly harping on the “ugliness” of slavery while totally accepting the mass slaughter of the American Indians by men who flew the stars and stripes.

  • “Because they had the benefit of historical perspective and the acknowledgment that those were less enlightened times. You do not. You know better.”

    Your comment doesn’t make any sense. If “they had the benefit of historical perspective and the acknowledgement those were less enlightened times,” why did “they” attempt to annihilate the Indians? Were “they” all blessed with the gift or precognition?

    These are NOT “enlightened times.” Unless there is a drastic change in this country, the United States won’t survive to celebrate its 250th birthday. In the future, other nations will read about the late United States of America, a once great nation that succumbed to political correctness.

  • You are trying to pretend a symbol used in service of white supremacy and terror against blacks is somehow a benign image completely bereft of negative inference. To any sane person that makes no sense. We are a better society than we were in the 19th century. Constantly working for a more perfect, more inclusive, more representative union. This is why I extol my nation as a whole and not try to polish the terd of a past racist breakaway republic whichvwas brought back into the fold.

    There is a deep seated hysteria and I will at this point also assume racism in your response. (Racism is integral to the neo confederate arguments) Political correctness is a myth. Much like notions of white, Christian, male privilege. People who rail against it are largely just looking for excuses to act boorishly or offend without consequences.

  • They weren’t rioting over “segregation,” genius; they were rioting because they felt they were being treated unfairly by the white people in their communities and those “communities” weren’t in the South!

  • Could you name any of those Southerners who attempted to keep him out of Yale Law School?

  • Except in the south where they were marching against segregation and met with assault, arrest and murder. You don’t really have a point here. The reason for such increases in black communities in the north to begin with were people fleeing Jim Crow.

    By all means keep pretending there isn’t a white supremacist agenda behind modern day use of the confederate flag. Your pointless diversions are not making your argument any stronger.

  • If you knew anything at all about the so-called “Confederate flag,” you would know that the Southern Cross depicted on the stained glass window is nothing more than a battle flag flown by the Army of Northern Virginia. It NEVER flew over the Confederate States of America.

    When the Southern states seceded, there was nothing in the US Constitution prohibiting their doing so, so there is no way they could be deemed guilty of “treason.”

  • Can you name any southern black judges before 1965?

    Do you want to keep pretending segregation didn’t extend to education? Because I am pretty sure it was a vital component to the policy.

  • You should spend more time reading and less time broadcasting your liberal agenda, which is supported by NOTHING! If you knew anything at all about General Forrest, the South, Reconstruction or the KKK, you would know that founding the KKK and possessing a legitimate concern for how blacks were going to support themselves as free people, are two entirely different issues. Study the history of the Memphis & Selma Railroad if you don’t believe Gen. Forrest hired blacks to fill upper-level positions. He realized if blacks didn’t learn marketable skills, they would become wards of the counties in which they lived. (It’s too bad today’s liberals aren’t as concerned for the well-being of blacks as Gen. Forrest was.)

  • Not everyone wanted to “save” the United States and considering how the country has degenerated over the past 150+ years, we’d all be better off if it hadn’t been saved.

  • If you don’t like the South, no one is forcing you to live here. If the north and other areas of the US are so rosy, why aren’t you living elsewhere?

  • It is impolite to answer a question with a question. News Flash: “Yale” isn’t in the South! If everything in the South was so terrible and everything in the north was so wonderful, why does Justice Thomas say he was treated better by Southern segregationists than he was by northern liberals? He is the subject of our discussion and his words carry a lot more weight than yours or mine.

    Could you please cite where I said segregation did not extend to education?

  • Makes no difference. The reunification of the Union was essential for the rise of the US into a world power and to put a final end to a conflict which was simmering for generations.

    “United States and considering how the country has degenerated over the past 150+ years”

    Degenerated? You mean to say the era back when people could be owned as chattel property was a high point? Are you effing kidding me??

    Thank you for confirming what is obvious about all of you guys stumping for the confederate flag. You are all a bunch of worthless, racist buffoons. You all made inane, ridiculous excuses for slavery, segregation, the KKK and terrorism against segments of our population. You guys are America’s answer to Holocaust deniers. Have fun defending America’s swastika. I am past the point of taking this seriously. Now go spam some other site with your bigoted dishonest revisionist drivel.

  • You should spend less time insulting the intelligence of everyone else and stop lying to further a racist reactionary dishonest agenda. When you are done making excuses for the premier domestic terrorist in our history and the American version of ISIS, feel free to slink off to some other site where someone might be ignorant enough to take your nonsense seriously. I have nothing nice to say to you at this point. So I am done saying anything to you.

  • If you were honest, you would have acknowledged the flag’s modern use as a symbol of racism and terror against black communities. But you are not. Bye bye.

  • Its impolite to lie about history for the purposes of a bigoted agenda. But here we are. Thank you for showing that Americans have their own answer to Holocaust deniers too.

  • Spuddie’s ancestors weren’t “brought out of Africa.” He isn’t black. He’s a white progressive liberal who, like Hillary Clinton, thinks of blacks as mindless pets who cannot think for themselves or survive on their own. Like all Democrats, he wants to keep blacks poor and dumb so they will continue to vote for Democrats.

    BTW, I am neither embarrassed nor ashamed of what my ancestors, or anyone else, did before I was born. So when you say you’re embarrassed and ashamed about slavery, you’re not speaking for the majority of Southerners.

  • If you are one of those people who wants America to go back the “good old days” and you never heard of the following names: James Chaney, Andrew Goodman, Michael Schwerner, Cynthia Wesley, Addie Mae Collins, Denise McNair and Carol Robertson, then please know, you ARE what’s wrong with our country.

  • There is now an internet search engine called “Google.” Go to Google, type “Wikipedia blunders,” or “Ted Cruz Wikipedia screenshot Zodiac killer,” or “Wikipedia ‘Death in the Afternoon’ blunder,” or whatever. Trust me, no one is surprised you haven’t seen any of these Wikipedia entries. In the future, you should do a little checking before branding someone a “purveyor of BS.”

  • You’re really obsessed with this “Jim Crow” malarkey, aren’t you? I believe in the enlightened (LOL!) 21st century, liberals have moved on and are no longer using the archaic term “Jim Crow.”

    The overwhelming majority of blacks who rioted in northern cities were born in those cities and the only “racism” they had ever encountered occurred in the north. People in the north are (and always have been) just as “racist” as those in the South. The only difference is that instead admitting it, you yankees attempt to shift the blame.

  • Thanks for the info. LOL. I’m ‘really’ not embarrassed/ashamed either. I was exaggerating for Spud, since he thinks we should be both.

  • Well you are stumping for the symbol of it and it’s supporters. So it’s only fair.

    You said the nation was better off 150 years ago and degenerated since then. Not to enlightened there.

    I’m done entertaining your fictions and fantasies.

  • Producing ID does not “create unreasonable obstacles” for anyone. The elderly and urban poor are required to produce identification when they apply for benefits or a driver’s license, cash a check, open a bank account for their SNAP and/or Social Security accounts, enter a secure building, etc., etc. Why do you suppose they’re always able to produce ID at the local benefits office, but it’s too much of a hardship to produce ID when they vote? Everyone knows the reason Democrats don’t want voters to be required to produce ID is because it would eliminate those who vote several times in different precincts and cut out the cemetery vote. Back in 1997, a judge nullified the mayoral election in Miami because of the number of dead people voting and God only knows how many of Chicago’s dead voted for Obama.

  • Old people seldom have drivers licenses after a certain age and are unlikely to renew then. Nor do they produce ID when benefits are mailed to them. Urban poor don’t produce drivers licenses either for their benefits. They get benefits cards, which don’t count for voter ID. Many do not have drivers licenses unless they have cars.

    Voter ID laws cause a significant drop in voting am among citizens of about 3-5%. Voter fraud has been documented at about .0001% in any given polity. Obviously it causes more problems than it solves. (https://www.brennancenter dot org/issues/voter-fraud‎)

    The largest instances of voting fraud comes at the counting level, not at the voter level.

    You insist on lying to support your statements. Everyone knows, especially Republicans, that the laws constitute an attempt to attack voting rights. Much like the poll taxes that were used to keep blacks from voting back in the day. See, it all relates back to you extolling the bigotry of the past.

  • (1) Show me where I said the “poor” had to produce driver’s licenses for benefits. All states have what is called a “state ID card,” which is issued specifically for the purpose of identification for those who do not have driver’s licenses.

    (2) The Brennan Center for Justice is almost (but not quite) as reliable as Wikipedia.

    (3) Show me where I’ve “lied” to support my statements.

  • “I’m done entertaining your fictions and fantasies.”

    Trust me, no one would ever accuse YOU of “entertaining” the truth!

  • The US Constitution allows people to deny the holocaust and make what you falsely label “bigoted” comments. You’re a liberal white Democrat and as such, I realize you can’t wait until the 1st Amendment is repealed, but right now, it’s still in effect.

  • “The liberal elements of whites are those who have perfected the art of selling themselves to the Negro as a friend of the Negro. Getting sympathy of the Negro, getting the allegiance of the Negro, and getting the mind of the Negro. Then the Negro sides with the white liberals, and the white liberals use the Negro against the white conservatives. So that anything that the Negro does is never for his own good, never for his own advancement, never for his own progress, he’s only a pawn in the hands of the white liberal. The worst enemy that the Negroes have is this white man that runs around here drooling at the mouth professing to love Negroes, and calling himself a liberal, and it is following these white liberals that has perpetuated problems that Negroes have.” – Malcolm X, 1963

    He was referring to liberals like YOU, Spuddie!

  • “Everyone else.” First, you claim to speak for every black person in the United States. Now, you claim to speak for everyone else participating in this discussion. YOU are the only one who finds my posts objectionable.

    The “American version of ISIS” is “Black Lives Matter” and I have NEVER made an excuse for that bunch of lazy, uneducated, ill-informed welfare freaks.

  • Hell, just take down the whole frigging Washington National Cathedral because it was built by people that wanted to honor our history.

  • YOU are the one who started calling me names because my posts upset you. I have conducted our discussion in a civil manner and I don’t lose my temper. Why shouldn’t I respond to you?

  • If YOU were honest, you and the other liberals would cease treating blacks like mindless animals and using them as pawns to fulfill your Communist agenda.

  • Again with the personal attacks and name-calling. Has anyone posting here called you an unbecoming name? I certainly haven’t. This is because YOU are a northern liberal and the rest of us are Southerners. Down here, manners still mean something.

  • You know NOTHING about General Nathan Bedford Forrest because all you’ve read/heard about him is northern propaganda, none of which is true.

  • Trust me, no one in the South wants to “bring back slavery.” We want now the same thing we wanted then: the right to govern ourselves.

  • We don’t know what kind of wood is best for cross burnings. You’ll have to ask a Democrat since they are the ones that created the KKK and have kept the blacks in slavery unto this day with all their welfare programs, the only difference is the plantations are section 8 housing, public housing or the projects.

  • All the Dems have left from that crowd is Robert Byrd. He is really old and going senile. Its better to ask a younger person. Like a Trump supporter.

  • Evidently you know what kind of wood is best for cross burnings and are a Hillary supporter. So, I guess you correctly made my point that the Democrats are the only ones that know the source of wood used in KKK crosses.

  • It was ignorant, trite and ridiculous the first time you mentioned. Following it up didn’t make it any less so. So David Duke endorses whom for president?

    We all know those Klansman, segregationists, worshippers of the confederate battle flag, became the backbone of the GOP. More importantly why do you insult yourself by being associated with filthy democrats?

    .

  • Spuddie, you know nothing of history do you. Your statement that “you can call World War 2 “The War for the Defense of the Greater German and Japanese Homelands” is ridiculous because they were the invaders and aggressors unlike the Confederacy who were the invaded states not the aggressors.
    It’s so easy to spot a liberal Democrat, all you have to do is read their idiotic, uninformed and biased statements & comments.

  • One does not respond to obvious revisionism by employing their own. There is not a single nation which regards the violent breakaway of a region to be a benign act.

    Why do you hate this country so much that you would rather have seen it divided and at war with itself for generations?

    There was no positive outcome possible with a Confederate victory. The rise of the US as a superpower would have been strangled in the crib.

    But then again given the constant apologia for slavery, segregation, and white supremacy common to all supporters of the confederate flag, I have no expectation of reasonable and objective ideas coming from that crowd. Supporters of the American swastika aren’t looking for such things.

  • The fact is that both the KKK and Planned Parenthood are creations of the Democrats.

  • Correct. Anything after that is just nonsense. Of course so we’re Christian conservatives. They all became Republicans from 1964 on.

    Here is what gets me. The typical reaction everyone had to the “Democrats used to be racist and segregationists” argument is to consider the speaker an ignorant dumbbunny. Because EVERYONE knows how those racist dixiecrats became the social conservative wing of the GOP.

    It’s an argument which makes the speaker look foolish. I can’t see how such a half baked statement with such a glaringly obvious material omission is considered a worthy retort. Yet it’s brought out all the time. It really gives people the impression conservatives aren’t very intelligent it have critical thinking skills.

    You are better off giving the argument a tender mercy killing. For your own sake.

  • Clearly Presentism, looked down upon by historians and sociologists alike, marches on…so glad that I was able to view the windows at OUR National Cathedral with my son on his 5th grade field trip a few years ago – no plans to ever return. What follows is my letter published by The Tennessean newspaper on 30 Dec. 2015: Civil War truths – Re: “Letters to the editor, Dec. 23: Civil War and slavery.”
    Since they ran during Christmas season, the three gentlemen whose letters appeared in the Dec. 22 issue have earned the nickname “Ebenezer” in their attempt to extinguish the “spirit” of the former Confederacy by naming slavery as the sole cause of the “Civil” War.
    So, where would the Ghost of Civil War Past take this trio and what would they behold?
    Perhaps to army encampments, both Confederate and Union, to hear the soldiers tell why they were fighting. The Ghost of Civil War Present would show them the removal of Confederate flags and monuments in 2015 and lecture them on the short-sightedness of “presentism.”
    The Specter of Civil War Yet to Come would show them a future devoid of the truths of Confederate history.
    That the institution of slavery is now accepted as the sole cause of the deadliest war in U.S. history is unconscionable. Slavery was prominent in some states’ articles of secession, but what about the Morrill Tariff Act and Corwin Amendment of 1861?
    At the Civil War centennial, the reasons why 13 states seceded were better understood since this preceded the Civil Rights movement and the “sole cause” argument.
    Why did Lincoln not take Horace Greeley’s advice and “let the erring sisters go in peace”?
    Gary Gallagher, in “The Union War,” cogently explains that Lincoln began the war to restore the union, not free the slaves.
    Hopefully, it will someday be said that our opinionated trio have learned to “keep the truth of Civil War history well.”

  • It’s incredible to me how many racists are at this site. This is my first time here, so I don’t know if this is common. But my goodness, it’s pretty darn disturbing. Especially the racist troll “Jason Fraser,” with his revisionist history of the south.

  • Lies and propaganda (=corruption) in the House of the Lord… Shame! The 7 cardinal sins in their most recent form (look at n°2):

    1. A proud (vain) look
    2. A lying tongue.
    3. Hands that shed innocent blood
    4. A heart that deviseth wicked acts
    5. Feet that be swift in running to mischief
    6. A false witness that speaketh lies
    7. He that soweth discord among brethren
    First: a message in advance towards those who plan to taunt me as a ‘traitor’ or ‘racist’, or plan to start claiming the Secession War was ONLY about slavery, for writing this comment: the answer will be a long list of books, sites and articles written by professors about the full story of the Secession War.

    Apart from the fact that a deadly sin has been comitted in a House of the Lord, and that this offends me… It also offends me that an action of cultural barbarism has been comitted by removing this excellent, artistic piece of craftmanship.

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