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First openly LGBT United Methodist bishop: ‘This is the time’

The Western Jurisdictional Conference elected the Rev. Karen Oliveto
On the 17th ballot, the Western Jurisdictional Conference elected the Rev. Karen Oliveto to the episcopacy. Oliveto is senior pastor at Glide Memorial United Methodist Church in San Francisco. Photo courtesy of Patrick Scriven, United Methodist Church PNW Conference.

(RNS) Bishop Karen Oliveto felt called to ministry in the United Methodist Church when she was 11 years old.

But for years Oliveto refused to allow her name to be cast for the role of bishop because she “didn’t want to harm the church,” she said.

That’s because Oliveto, the senior pastor of Glide Memorial Church in San Francisco, is a lesbian, and the second largest Protestant denomination in the U.S. bans the ordination of “self-avowed practicing homosexuals.”


RELATED: United Methodist groups divided after election of first LGBT bishop


But that changed this May when the global denomination’s quadrennial meeting voted to delay its planned discussion of its LGBT members’ inclusion and instead opted to create a commission on the topic of sexuality that could lead to a special session.

With that decision, Oliveto said, “something opened up in me.”

“I realized that maybe who I am — if I possess the gifts and graces for the episcopacy — maybe who I am could be a gift to the church at this moment,” she said.

That was confirmed, she said, the morning she met with supporters who wanted to nominate her for bishop. It was the same morning she heard news of the mass shooting in Orlando, Fla., that targeted the LGBT community.

“This is the time,” she thought.

It was confirmed, she said, when her nomination was endorsed by her local annual conference, the California-Nevada Annual Conference.

And when Oliveto was consecrated as the United Methodist Church’s first openly LGBT bishop on Saturday (July 16), a day after she was elected on the 17th ballot at the Western Jurisdictional Conference in Scottsdale, Ariz.

The consecreation service of the United Methodist Bishop Karen Oliveto

Photo from the consecreation service of United Methodist Bishop Karen Oliveto held on July 16, 2016, at Paradise Valley United Methodist Church in Scottsdale, Ariz. Photo courtesy of Patrick Scriven, United Methodist Church PNW Conference

Not all United Methodists are united in their support for the new bishop.

The Institute on Religion & Democracy and Good News, two groups that describe themselves as advocates of “orthodox” Christianity, have said the move pushes the denomination toward schism. And the denomination’s South Central Jurisdictional Conference has requested a declaratory decision from its Judicial Council on whether the election and consecration of an openly LGBT bishop is lawful.

At least 26 United Methodist clergy have faced complaints or church trials for officiating same-sex weddings or for identifying as LGBT, according to the Reconciling Ministries website. That includes Oliveto; a complaint filed against her in 2004 for officiating a same-sex wedding later was resolved without a trial.

The denomination’s Council of Bishops, meeting this week in Chicago, is “monitoring this situation very closely,” council president Bishop Bruce Ough said in a statement made after the election. Meanwhile, the council will continue its work of forming the commission to discuss sexuality, Ough said.

Oliveto said her election doesn’t undo the denomination’s decision to create that commission, but rather is a “gift” to the commission.

“The church forgets that we’re people in pulpits and pews in every church in the United Methodist Church,” she said. “By bringing my whole self into the conversation, it changes the conversation. We have to learn how to be in relationship with one another, and we can’t objectify one another and our differences.”

And, she said, the feedback she has received since her election has been “nothing but a deluge of wonderfully loving emails from around the world — people telling me their stories; people thanking me that now they feel like they can walk into a church, that they’ve been able to do some healing because of the abuse they’ve received from the church.

“I think my election has helped the church realize that no child of God should be left behind.”

Oliveto, 58, was born on Good Friday and grew up in Babylon, N.Y. — “seriously,” she said — an auspicious beginning for a clergyperson.

She preached her first sermon when she was 16 at Babylon United Methodist Church, a church she said was committed to its young people and confirmed her call early on. So it was “really shocking” when she came out as a lesbian while in seminary to realize that support and that call also could be taken from her by the church.

But, she said: “My spirituality is so Wesleyan. My theology is so Wesleyan. There’s no place else for me to go — I am made to be a United Methodist.”

She met her spouse, Robin Ridenour, a nurse anesthetist and deaconess in the church, 17 years ago at a camp where they both were counselors, and they married two years ago.

Oliveto first became pastor of Bloomville United Methodist Church in tiny Bloomville, N.Y., then took a position as a campus minister at San Francisco State University. She came out at the church she attended there — Bethany United Methodist Church — and it wasn’t long before the church asked for her to pastor the congregation, she said.

She has been on the West Coast since, becoming senior pastor of Glide in 2008. She is a board member of the denomination’s General Council on Finance and Administration, too.

Now, as bishop of the Mountain Sky Area of the United Methodist Church, she said she is “looking forward to helping us be a bold church that is an agent of God’s transforming love in every community there’s a church.”

“People should be able to look at churches in their town, in their villages and say, ‘We are a better place because that church is here.’ I’m so looking forward to helping the clergy and laity do that in their communities throughout that region.”

About the author

Emily McFarlan Miller

Emily McFarlan Miller is a national reporter for RNS based in Chicago. She covers evangelical and mainline Protestant Christianity.

304 Comments

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  • “Meanwhile, the council will continue its work of forming the commission to discuss sexuality, Ough said.” What is there to discuss? Christ said homosexuality is a sin. Christ said that people unrepentantly participating in sin are not Christian and they will not go to Heaven. Christ said that a woman would have no authority over a man…..so what is there to discuss except they don’t have enough love for Jesus to respect His word and expel the woman? She’s a pagan, and she is not able to help homosexuals to go to the Kingdom of Heaven, or even put them on the right track.

  • “But, she said: “My spirituality is so Wesleyan. My theology is so Wesleyan. There’s no place else for me to go — I am made to be a United Methodist.” I see that Wesleyan no longer means Christian – at least to her. Where does Jesus endorse homosexuality in the Bible hon?

  • Why does it all have to be New Testament. Christ taught all over the Bible. The Bible is His word. So why do you want to confine him to the New Testament. Do you know that Jesus is God, hon?

  • Jesus was essentially as ignorant as everyone else alive during that time period. Unlike science, which advances with discoveries supported by authentic evidence, your brand of religion refuses to advance beyond the ignorance of people living thousands of years ago. Given the obvious fact that virtually all organized religions were created as a way for the cleverest authoritarian people to control human thought processes, beliefs, and behavior, they feel compelled to resist any and all change based on rational thinking . . . because it puts them at risk for losing all their control. After all, if they must admit to being wrong about one thing, then people will wonder what else their religion was wrong about, and their ability to control may collapse.

    Homosexuality has never ever caused any harm whatsoever to anyone, so there cannot be even one legitimate objection to people living in accordance with that innate orientation. And furthermore, more homosexuality and less heterosexuality would benefit the earth and humanity by reducing the vast number of unintended/unwanted pregnancies.

  • Because you Jesus loving Christians are supposed to be following his words on abandoning the parts of the old testament which promote cruelty and hate.

    But we know you don’t think Jesus is as important as Leviticus.

  • You obviously know nothing Spud….lol….just hatred. Christ is all over the Bible, from the beginning to the end and he is quoted in the Book of Revelation. Learn, Spud….like I keep telling you – learn.

  • Said the person who proof texts the Bible to find excuses for their malice and prejudice. You certainly know a thing or two about hate. You seem much more experienced at expressing it with a straight face.

    Far better than I.

  • When was the last time you read a Bible, or have you ever?
    Homosexuality hurts the practitioner – there are tons of information about the problems with it, along with the fact that homosexuals are the fastest group increasing in STD rates. Homosexuality hurts the families of the participant to see them defying the Lord in such an awful manner.
    Homosexuality hurts children in that they are not taught a proper respect for the Lord – which could place them in Hell, along with the homosexual.
    Homosexuality hurts a lot of people, aside from the fact that it is immoral.
    Colossians 3:5 – 5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you:[b] sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.

  • Do you believe you must obey all commands in both the Old Testament and the New Testament? Do you believe you must stone to death your children when they rebel against you? Do you believe women and minorities must submit to men and majorities? Do you believe foreigners are yours to attack and enslave, and that their property is yours to take? Do you believe it’s a sin to work on the Sabbath, and that the Sabbath begins Friday evening and ends Saturday evening? Do you believe you are morally obligated to feed, clothe, shelter, teach, employ, care for, and protect the hungry, naked, homeless, uneducated, jobless, disabled, and vulnerable, and that you should sell everything you own in order to meet these obligations? Do you believe you must abstain from alcohol and shellfish? Do you believe it’s righteous for you to authoritatively describe the character, motives, and worth of people you don’t know, and to treat them accordingly? And how do you obey all those commands that (paraphrasing) Jesus begins with “You have heard it said [by God in the Old Testament],…” and then continues with “But I say…”?

  • I’m not the believer, Sandi. You’re the one who rejected what Spuddie said about “abandoning the parts of the old testament which promote cruelty and hate”. I’m just the one who wants to know whether and how you obey all OT and NT commands rather than just obeying certain ones.

  • In the Old Testament we have history and the history of the Jews. We also have prophesy and other things.
    The Laws given to the Jews fall into three categories – civil, ceremonial and moral. The Jews, who rejected Jesus, still follow the civil and ceremonial. For Christians, those laws have been fulfilled through Jesus. But, Jesus did bring the moral laws into the New Testament. Things that Christ had voiced all the way back to Genesis and prohibitions upheld all the way to the Book of Revelation. That is why Christians do not need to follow all of the things written in the Law and why Jews still do. Christ spoke all over the Bible. He was the Word of God and He is God.I hope this helped you G.

  • Do you spend as much time on all of the other sins of the world, or is homosexuality your preference?

  • And isn’t that division convenient?

    You get your bacon sandwich and shrimp cocktail, you don’t have to murder your adulterous friends and relatives– though why that isn’t a moral law is beyond me– and you STILL get to pretend that being gay is some extra special icky sin.

  • Jesus obviously loves the LGBT community. That is why he has NEVER done anything to stop them. If it’s good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for you. Why are you trying to mess with HIS plan? Do you think that you know more than GOD?

  • Actually, current events are my taste. But, there are so many people who need to be helped so they don’t die from homosexuality, that I feel good helping them. What about you?

  • “The wrath of god is coming”

    Don’t you think that your god is a sadistic psychopath?

  • Is casting someone into a lake of fire an act of hatred or an act of love? Please, just focus on this question. See if you can answer it.

  • Isn’t it weird how your gods perverse moral values leads one to believe that it is okay to murder someone for picking up sticks on the sabbath? Do you think someone should ever be murdered for picking up sticks on the sabbath?

  • civil laws. Jesus fulfilled them, if you knew the Bible, you would know that. I suggest that you learn about what you are trying to condemn.

  • Casting someone into the lake of fire is the choice they make for themselves. Reject Christ, the One who loved you first, you make the choice

  • No He died for me, and you, if you choose to accept that gift. Learn about it and decide, No.

  • I’m not messing with His plan whatsoever. I’m trying to protect people from wrong choices and ending up in Hell. What are you doing?

  • The ethics are STILL those of a complete psychopath. Why do you ignore this? Why all the dishonesty?

    Did heaven and earth pass away yet?

    “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

    Jesus didn’t die for anyone’s sins. That is just a 1st century superstitious belief. From purely a logical point of view, you can’t hurt an all powerful god. And you certainly can’t kill one. So the whole death/resurrection was just an elaborate theatrical performance to entertain the delusional masses. If you weren’t a brainwashed member of a doomsday cult, this would not be difficult to understand.

    Jesus was not a god; he was just a man. That is why he is STILL dead after 2,000 years. How many more thousands of years have to pass by before you accept the fact that he is STILL dead and will NEVER be returning?

  • He is your invisible friend who is a deaf mute. He obviously can’t talk. That is why you are here pretending to know his will and talking on his behalf. All gods have that problem.

  • I appreciate your reply, Sandi. I wanted to know how you thought about and reconciled those troubling and in some cases conflicting commands. Now I think I understand. Thank you.

  • I have a great idea – why don’t we just wait for Jesus to make a TV appearance declaring his disapproval of the LGBT community. And until that happens, why don’t you just keep your mouth shut and your silly superstitious beliefs to yourself.

  • Here is a list of things that are not real. Study it well so you are not fooled so easily in the future: spooks, spectors, free-floating apparitions, ghosts, werewolves, gods, Santa Claus, witch-doctors, witches that fly on brooms, heaven, hell, sin, Frankenstein, living mummies, the bogeyman, goddesses, fortune tellers, devils, divining rods, mystics, zombies, spirits, miracles, and mind-readers.

  • So let me get this straight, your god creates people and sin, and then he decides that was a big mistake, so to free the people of the sin he created, he pretends to commit suicide so that he won’t have to murder all the people later, but only if they believe that he pretended to commit suicide to save them from himself. How does someone actually come to believe that this insanely ridiculous story is true?

  • Well look at that, you couldn’t even answer the simplist of questions. What happened?

    Isn’t jesus just like Hitler: Hitler murdered all those that didn’t believe in him. But he took good care of his friends. And just like Hitler, Christians believe that Jesus will murder all those that don’t believe in him. But he will take good care of his friends. So if you are a sane and rational person who would never follow Hitler, why would you follow Jesus?

  • Isn’t it odd that the bargain Christianity offers is almost identical to the demands made by ISIS: Convert to Christianity or the Christian god will murder you? The only difference is that the Muslim followers are threatening to do the killing as opposed to the Christian god. But from the PERSPECTIVE OF A CHRISTIAN, who is more powerful, capable, and certain of carrying out such a sadistic plan: the followers of a god, which are mere mortals, or the Christian god – the all-powerful creator of the universe? So if we universally condemn the threat made by ISIS as sadistic and counter to basic ideas of liberty and justice, shouldn’t we condemn Christianity in even stronger terms in light of the unwavering christian belief in this perceived certainty that the Christian god will carry out the threat?

  • Hmm. Just noticed that somebody said that sin was not real. But if that’s true, then somebody is claiming to be sinless. Are you sinless, Nogods?

  • Yes. But don’t worry, abortion is Jesus-approved. He is completely unconcerned with this issue and has once again decided to sit this one out. If he didn’t want abortion to happen, he would do something about it. He is all-powerful, remember. And his complete silence should tell you that he just doesn’t care. So don’t mess with his plan.

  • God himself not only believes in the right but believes women should be forced to abort if they are suspected of having laid with another man than their husband,

  • So if it is ok with you for a woman to have the ultimate say over whether her unborn child lives or dies, she being the only one who sustains that life, why then is it unjust for the sovereign God, within whom all life exists and is sustained, to wipe out beings who elect not to serve their purpose in the Creator’s design?

  • “So if it is ok with you for a woman to have the ultimate say over whether her unborn child lives or dies, she being the only one who sustains that life”

    Yes, a woman has the right to control her body.

    “why then is it unjust for the sovereign God, within whom all life exists and is sustained, to wipe out beings who elect not to serve their purpose in the Creator’s design?”

    Here are a few reasons:

    1. Your god is supposed to be all-good, not a sadistic psychopath.

    2. Your god is completely unaffected by the lives of humans, so he is just murdering them out of spite.

    3. The way your mind works is EXACTLY how radical ISIS extreamists think.

    4. If your god was all-knowing, he would already know what choices people would make before they make them. So why would he punish people for something for which they played no role in the decision.

    5. Thankfully, your god is fictional. That is why you are still here pretending to know his will and speaking on his behalf.

  • 1. So a woman who gets an abortion is a sadistic psychopath?

    2. Who says He is completely unaffected? He has creative purposes and beings who do not fulfill those purposes certainly affect Him.

    3. Irrelevant ad hom.

    4. That God knows what choices people will make has nothing to do with their freedom to make those choices. God is not constrained by the limitations of time as we are.

    5. Irrelevant opinion.

  • When He said in Matt.15 that sexual immorality defiles us. According to the Greek lexicon the word “porneia” (sexual immorality) encompassed every kind of sexual activity forbidden by the Torah, including premarital sex, homosexuality, bestiality, incest, and prostitution (He mentioned adultery separately).

  • “1. So a woman who gets an abortion is a sadistic psychopath?”

    There is a difference between a baby and a fetus. You should learn the difference.

    “2. Who says He is completely unaffected? He has creative purposes and beings who do not fulfill those purposes certainly affect Him.”

    I love it when Christians pretend to know the will of their god.

    “3. Irrelevant ad hom.”

    It’s very relevant. There is no difference between Christian sharia law and Islamic sharia law. You are one man trying to impose your corrupt values (which are rooted in ancient superstitious beliefs) on 150 million woman.

    “4. That God knows what choices people will make has nothing to do with their freedom to make those choices. God is not constrained by the limitations of time as we are.”

    Of course it has everything to do with freedom to make choices. Your god has created people which he knows, before they were even born, that he will have to murder because they will make all the wrong choices. So your god knows the outcome of the game and every move that will be played, before the game even starts. If someone could make a choice that your god was unaware of, he would not be all-knowing. Try to be honest now.

    Your god is obviously constrained by a lot of things. He couldn’t even write his own book!

    “5. Irrelevant opinion.”

    If your god was opposed to abortion, he could and would do something about it. He doesn’t. Don’t mess with his plan.

  • You synopsis is simplistic and flawed. For one thing, since your synopsis is based on your understanding of the text, God did not create sin. Sin resulted as function of the freewill acts of the first two human beings. God requires an atonement for sin, that was the purpose of the Mosaic Law, but the Law could only carry us so far. The perfect atonement was in God’s sacrifice of Himself. He foreknew all these things. He could have corrected a marred creation by imperial fiat, turned us all into perfectly obedient automatons, but He wanted us to choose Him as He chose us, and part of that choice is walking in obedience to the spiritual precepts He laid down for us. I find that much more likely and rational than evolution and the utterly insane mathematical odds against creative sentient beings arising from it.

  • Don’t bet against it. When He does return, as He surely will, if you haven’t come to grips with that, your future will be more difficult than you can possibly imagine.

  • Biologically there is no difference between a baby and a fetus, to say so is a subjective opinion not a scientific fact.

  • Sandi, I said that “there cannot be even one legitimate objection” to homosexuality. Your invocation of an imaginary lord, god, hell to incite fear are completely illegitimate.

    Objections based on STD rates are no more relevant to homosexuality than to heterosexuality. May I assume that if you had lived prior to the development of antibiotics through science, you would have wanted to eliminate heterosexuality? If you are so concerned about STDs among gay people, you should be doing everything you can to encourage more same-sex marriage.

  • Same sex relationships may cause eternal harm to those who engage each other sexually. Humans are body and soul – not just body. All who are not validly married to one person of the opposite sex are called to chastity.

  • Clergy don’t “officiate” weddings, funerals and similar rites and ceremonies; they “officiate AT” them. RNS repeatedly makes this error, despite its theological implications.

  • “, thus risking major conflict and bad press. ”
    Yup. Bigots really hate it when they are called out as bigots.
    As rochefoucauld pointed out, hypocrisy is the homage that vice pays to virtue. .Others are proud of it. As rochefoucauld pointed out, hypocrisy is the homage that vice pays to virtue. .

  • Homosexuality never killed anyone. But homobigotry, homohatred, religious bigotry, hate disguised as love, and homohatred disguised as sincere religious belief have killed countless gay people over millennia.That’s why I feel good about helping to end them

  • Tens of thousands of people have prayed fore Jesus to change them, and Jesus never did.

  • “There is a difference between a baby and a fetus.” There is no meaningful difference between the two except that the latter exists within and is dependent upon the mother’s body. Exactly as we exist within and are dependent upon the being of God. It’s difficult to argue that a woman is under no moral obligation to host an unwelcome being within herself but God is.

    “I love it when Christians pretend to know the will of their god.” That’s silly. If there is a Creator there must be a purpose to His creation. There is no reason why beings who do not wish to serve those purposes must be continued within a purposeful universe, anymore than beings who do not wish to heed the laws of gravity must be preserved when they leap from heights.

    “It’s very relevant. There is no difference between Christian sharia law and Islamic sharia law.” Sharia law has nothing to do with the question of whether God would be obligated to maintain man in a fallen state for ever. Try to stay on topic, please.

    “Of course it has everything to do with freedom to make choices. Your god has created people which he knows, before they were even born, that he will have to murder because they will make all the wrong choices.” Foreknowledge in no way negates freedom of choice. Your argument appears to be more directed toward the question of whether a moral and omniscient God would create beings with free will at all, which is totally different. He could have created you not in His own image (which necessitates free will) but instead on par with the animals, essentially a biological robot enslaved to instinct and therefore not morally responsible, but your end would be the same — dead for eternity — so I don’t see that you would be gaining any advantage there.

    “If your god was opposed to abortion, he could and would do something about it.” That the Christian west repudiated abortion and infanticide (both almost universally accepted, often as a positive good) in human civilization) at all is the result of God’s intervention in history by sending a Messiah who would purchase and empower a Kingdom of Spirit-filled citizens who have changed the world in spite of their own fallenness. And civilization waited roughly 2500 years for that. Our little western experiment in renewed pagan immorality is a momentary screw-up hardly a few minutes old in the scheme of things. Of a certainty, it will have an end.

    Your comment gave me the mental image of a couple of ants crawling around on my kitchen counter in the early spring asking each other “If these people are so smart and powerful why do they let us do this?” — as my husband is outside poisoning the mound.

  • God does not do anything to anyone due to free will he had bestowed upon us. Secondly, lgbt community violates the tenth commandment. Without the technology today, they would either be forced to sleep with those of opposite sex or violate the tenth commandment of not multiplying. Sex with the SAME gender does not help you reproduce.

  • Ministers would do LGBTs and the world a favor by simply quitting their jobs.
    The Christian Religion itself contains the heartless commands of hate against LGBT people. Christianity cannot fix the precise problem it creates:

    “Hate your friends and family or you are worthless to me” – JESUS (Luke 14:26)
    “Gays should die” – (Romans 1:27)
    “Avoid them” – (Romans 16:16)
    “Jews are disgusting and hateful” (1 Thessalonians 2:14)
    “Execute them in front of me” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)
    “You are nothing without me” – (John 15:5)
    “Die for me” – JESUS (Matthew 16:24)
    “I did not come to bring peace…But anarchy” – JESUS (Luke 12:49-51)
    Daughters only add filth to the mother – (Leviticus 12:1-5)
    “Slaves shall be beaten properly” – JESUS (Luke 12:47-48)
    “the kingdom of heaven advances with violence” – JESUS (Matthew 11:10-15)
    Humanity is depraved and worthless – (romans 3:23)

  • And tens of thousands have been changed by him. Facebook – Ex homosexuals for Jesus. Check it out.

  • homosexuality kills everyone who practices it. It keeps them out of the kingdom of Heaven and God’s blessings. Homosexuals have the highest increase in STDs at present. It hurts the children by not teaching them a proper respect for Jesus and His word. It hurts parents, friends and families by watching a person they love defy the living God. It hurts everyone Ben.

  • As I said. Homosexuality hurts everyone. You can deny that for yourself, but please don’t hurt others with your denials.

  • From Genesis to the Book of Revelation.- – countless times. Start in Genesis 19, then go to Judges 19, you’ll see how He feels about it.

  • Nah. It only hurts Antigay people who pass themselves off as Christians. It makes them all butt hurt.

    It hasn’t killed me. I did lose friends to a virus some years back, but not to being gay. Lesbians have far lower rates of STD’s than do heterosexuals. time to ban heterosexuality.

    You’re not God, you don’t speak for God, and until I see a letter of patent, you don’t represent God. Maybe God doesn’t speak to you because you can’t hear him. Thus you are left reading your book and thinking you understand it.

    You might want to read what Jesus had to say about the holy hypocrites who would bar the gates of heaven to the people they don’t approve of.

  • He has no reason to make a tv appearance. He’s written a 66 book Bible for you. All you have to do is read it and believe. blessings

  • He probably won’t talk to you unless you belong to Him. Nogods. Try Him. If you don’t like Him, satan will always take you back.

  • I’m sorry for your hatred of Someone who could really help you – and give you life. He died for you too Ben and you don’t have to go to perdition. It’s the choice you seem to be making though and I’d like better than that for you. blessings.

  • Ahhhh….I see you’ve been reading IhateChristians dot com! They have some new lies, eh? Thanks for providing a laugh for us. Blessings.

  • I think homosexuality has racked up quite a few victims by now, **all by itself**, including the Orlando tragedy and the murder of the famous designer Versace.

    (One could also mention the late Mr. Dahmer, but mentioning him tends to rile up people.)

    Homosexual behavior is a bad road to find oneself traveling, and it’s easy to see why the Bible doesn’t sugarcoat it nor support it.

  • agreed. 1 Peter 2:11 – 11 Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul.

  • Are you denying Christ wants gays killed?
    “The homosexuals deserve the due penalty” – (romans 1:27)
    It refers to “Execute Homosexuals” – God (Lev. 20:13)

    A former Christian like myself has more than enough knowledge without needing to refer to web sites.

  • If you had been a Christian, you would still be one, so, please don’t use that as an excuse for your bad behaviour.
    Jesus came to save even homosexuals from their sin so they don’t need to die from it. As a “former Christian”, why didn’t you know that? There are lots of sins that people are going to choose to die for.

  • Hi, Max.

    Captain Cut-and-Paste is back to show us how much he doesn’t care about religion by spamming religion sites day and night.

  • ” Homosexuality hurts everyone.”

    Without resorting to your irrelevant bible, show us some evidence grounded in reality.

  • Actually, it’s whatever you follow that is irrelevant, Richard. Jesus created us and knows what is best for us. You will learn that one day and I would be honoured to help you.

  • Genesis is the old testament, that is Yahweh denouncing homosexuality. He also denounces scale-less seafood, do you not eat that?

  • Nathan, do you know that Jesus is God? (John 1:1) Do you know that God spoke the Bible through Jesus? (John 1:3)
    What you are referring to is a civil law for Jews. Christians were given the right to eat everything in the Book of Acts (Acts 10:13)

  • I know that some people say Jesus is god, some don’t, some say he is but isn’t, sometime he is literally god or he is god’s son or he is god and god’s son at the same time. It’s a confusing mess. The point is that if you are applying the words of god in the old testament to now you don’t get to cherry pick them. They apply or they don’t apply.

  • This fantasy that I hate Jesus– you really need that to make you feel justified.

    I don’t hate Jesus any more than I hate Queen Elizabeth the First. Or you.

  • I’ve cherry picked nothing and explained somewhere on this particular article how it all works. No cherry picking necessary if you know what you are talking about Nathan. Also, you don’t set the rules.

  • Google the Jerusalem Council, Nathan. This was all asked and answered 2000 years ago.

    The Jewish church of Jerusalem, who were themselves Torah-observant and many of whom had known Jesus, saw no reason to impose any more of the Torah on Gentile Christians than what had always been expected of Gentiles. No one ever cared how much seafood righteous Gentiles ate. But righteous Gentiles were always expected to refrain from sexual immorality.

  • I don’t have to read minds. I just read your comments. I would be pleased to help you Ben.

  • Don’t confuse rational thought with bitterness.

    And FYI – only a psychopath thinks that murdering someone for using their brain is deserved justice.

  • Satan!? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! I bet you are also REALLY afraid of black cats aren’t you. Let’s stay focused for a moment and discuss one very particular aspect of your superstitious beliefs: the devil.

    I would like for you to do two things for each question below: 1. answer the question. And 2. state the source of information you relied on to answer the question.

    1. Where does the devil live?
    2. What does he eat?
    3. How does he travel around?
    4. Why don’t scientists study devils and their habitat?
    5. Why aren’t devils discussed in any science books?
    6. Why are devils only mentioned in fiction and books about mythology?
    7. Who do you think would know more about devils: a witch doctor from the jungles of Malaysia who has had no contact with western civilization, or the entire science faculty from MIT?
    8. How do devils reproduce?
    9. What life form have devils evolved from?
    10. Do devils get sick?
    11. How long do they live for?
    12. Do they have brains like humans?
    13. What type of circulatory system do they have?
    14. Has anyone taken a photo or video of one?
    15. What language do they speak?
    16. How do they communicate with one another?
    17. What languages do they understand?
    18. How large is the devil population?
    19. What is the life expectancy of a devil?
    20. How long do Devils care for their young?

    Now go back and change the word “devil” to “leprechaun” and answer all the same questions again. See any difference?

  • He didn’t write it; ancient men did. Gods don’t write books for some reason. Only men can do that. I wonder why.

  • Yet, you are the one who thinks that you have an invisible friend and that torturing people is actually okay. Lol. Koo koo

  • Yes, two completely different characters. One is completely fictional and obviously the one I am referencing.

  • Isn’t it weird how the invisible looks exactly like the non existent?

    Tell me what your god does that Zeus doesn’t do? Let’s start with a list comparing Zeus with Jesus.

    1. Jesus doesn’t heal people. Zeus doesn’t heal people.
    2. Jesus doesn’t prevent bad things from happening to good people. Zeus doesn’t prevent bad things from happening to good people.
    3. Jesus doesn’t stop priests from raping young boys. Zeus doesn’t stop priests from raping young boys.
    4. Jesus doesn’t stop anyone from having an abortion. Zeus doesn’t stop anyone from having an abortion.
    5. Jesus never defends his ethics himself but relies upon his followers to speak on his behalf. Zeus never defends his ethics himself but relies upon his followers to speak on his behalf.
    6. Jesus never makes TV appearances to clarify his book. Zeus never makes TV appearances to clarify his books.
    7. Jesus never writes anything. Zeus never writes anything.
    8. Jesus is invisible. Zeus is invisible.
    9. There is no clear and objective evidence supporting the claim that Jesus was magical. There is no clear and objective evidence supporting the claim that Zeus was magical.
    10. The existence of a magical Jesus is only documented in an ancient book. The existence of a magical Zeus is only documented in ancient books.
    11. There are a million things Jesus could do that would immediately convince everyone that he is real, but he does none of them. There are a million things Zeus could do that would immediately convince everyone that he is real, but he does none of them.
    12. Jesus doesn’t stop Christians from having their heads lopped off by Muslim extremists. Zeus doesn’t stop Christians from having their heads lopped off by Muslim extremists.
    13. Jesus doesn’t feed starving children. Zeus doesn’t feed starving children.
    14. The followers of Jesus don’t think that he does anything himself but claim that he has to “work through” people. The followers of Zeus don’t think that he does anything himself but claim that he has to “work through” people.

    So what do you think your god actually does?

  • Real dead. That is why you are still here talking on his behalf. Dead people can’t talk can they? Jesus can’t talk. Hummmm…. Maybe Jesus is dead.

  • Prove that your god is the one real one. I will get you started:
    1. My god is real because______. The evidence supporting this claim is as follows ______.
    2. My god is real because______. The evidence supporting this claim is as follows ______.
    3. My god is real because______. The evidence supporting this claim is as follows ______.
    Keep going until you run out of reasons. Then we will talk about your poor reasons and your complete lack of evidence.

  • Oh right, it’s only out of context when someone beside you use the same quotes and echo the same sentiments.

  • “please don’t use that as an excuse for your bad behaviour.”

    If only you heeded your own advice. 🙂

  • Except when you want to use them to justify attacking people. Then Jesus accepted all of those laws you reject right now. We all know how that game is played. Leviticus is applied to everyone but you. 🙂

  • No. I don’t participate in homosexuality either, nor bestiality, nor incest….guess you are wrong again, Spud.

  • “spamming religion sites”
    says the coal calling the kettle black.

    “he doesn’t care much about religion…”
    Oh I care all right. There is still too much of it.

  • I don’t pretend ostracizing people, discrimination and general attacks are peachy keen. That is all you.

  • I can’t help it if your a hypocrite. It comes with the territory. We all know the Leviticus excuse for Christian bigots. Anything applied to your behavior is “Jesus says we don’t need that”. Everything to others is “Jesus requires the whole law be followed”.

    It’s why Christians apply Leviticus more harshly than are Jews, people who are expected to follow the OT only.

    It’s a feature of your version of Christianity.

  • Jesus does require the whole law to be followed, and He fulfilled it. Are you able to understand that? He filled the requirements of the civil and ceremonial laws, Spud, so all that is left are the moral laws that He brought into the New Testament.
    Now, you can whine and complain because you don’t understand things, or you can learn. Take your pick. Read a Bible.

  • If you think calling out bad behavior is an attack or ostracizing, then you are simply being whiny and hypocritical. One who dishes out nastiness but hates being reminded of it. Oh well.

  • You don’t keep kosher, defer to male authority nor keep Sabbath on Saturday. You also do not follow directives of both Leviticus and Jesus to refrain from what is hateful.

  • “Jesus does require the whole law to be followed”

    See your prior remarks. So the rules against gays are followed but the ones against work on Sabbath are not because.. ? They are whichever ones you feel like following.

  • Congratulations Bishop Oliveto!

    I’m not surprised that she’s received so much support and love.
    As for the others? Haters gonna hate. (All couched in bible verses etc, as a disguise.)

  • No. The moral laws were brought into the New Testament, and the civil and ceremonial laws were fulfilled through Jesus. Pretty simple actually.

  • I don’t need to. I keep explaining to you why some things are necessary and some aren’t. You just refuse to learn and would rather moan and complain, it seems.

  • “They” weren’t cherry-picking. The observant understood what had always applied to Gentiles and what had not. It’s a question of history — which is definitely not the strong suit of today’s generation.

  • Whatever you can use to pretend your personal prejudice is acceptable is “necessary”. Anything which creates an obligation for you is “not necessary”. We both know how that works. 🙂

  • There is nothing moral about the rules discerning the treatment of gays or unbelievers. You only rely on “god says so”. Not any sort of discussion of moral or ethical behavior.

    Nice try, but your playbook is way too well worn and overused.

  • Sandi, don’t bother. Larry had the issues weighed by the Jerusalem Council explained to him in depth already, but he’s not interested in an actual answer. The “shrimp” argument keeps showing up because it’s a good hook for the biblically illiterate who are the target audience of the propagandists here.

  • Your god would be so displeased in your inability to defend him. If you don’t defend him, no one else will. We both know he can’t defend himself. Isn’t that hilarious – the supposed all-powerful creator of everything needs YOU to stick up for him and his sadistic ethics.

  • Key word “through.” Thanks for admitting that he didn’t write the bible – just like I said.

  • In the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God…and the Word was made flesh and dwelled among us.

  • And men STILL wrote the bible because your god could not. Gods don’t write books. Just like how gods don’t talk. For some strange reason, they need men to do that for them. I wonder why. Any ideas?

  • What you have just written is probably the stupidest comment I have read this week. Congratulations.

  • Probably the same reason a 2-dimensional being could not make sense of the 3-dimensional concepts of “up” or “down.” Much less can three-dimensional beings grasp the workings of a being which operates in ten or more — they can only relate to other 3-dimensional beings. You’ve already demonstrated earlier how hard it is to imagine being free of the limitations of time, and that’s only a sampling of the differences between us and God.

  • I just can’t figure out why anyone would choose to worship a god that threatens to torture you if you actually use the mind he supposedly has given you. Most people are opposed to sadistic dictators; Christians claim to have a “relationship” with one – and to love him.

    Isn’t it interesting to think that, over the past 2,000 years, BILLIONS of Christians have believed that Jesus would return during their lifetime. And EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM have gone to their graves COMPLETELY WRONG. And just as they have ALL been COMPLETELY WRONG, so will you. Jesus is STILL dead. And dead people don’t come back to life. Believing that they do is a superstitious belief that has ALWAYS been wrong. Keep pretending that your reality will somehow be different then the BILLIONS of Christians that have come before you. But know that you are just fooling yourself.

    Just remember – there are thousands of other gods you could worship but choose to reject. But your rejection of these other gods comes at a cost: all of these other gods intend to punish you when you are dead. So tell me how concerned you are about their impending wrath? Because that is the exact same level of concern I have about the impending wrath of your god. Pretty laughable isn’t it?

  • Sandi, homosexuality does not kill. As regards STDs, perhaps more lesbian and gay people should be encouraged to spend time with their ordained minister discussing faithfulness to their partner, the journey to a covenant relationship and marriage as I did. STDs are not transmitted between two people who don’t have them and uphold the vows/promises made before their family, friends and God.

    It is also quite remarkable the blessings on me. First, to be accepted and loved all my life by my church, by Him. Second, to find my parents and all my family supports me, and attends my wedding. Third, not one friend declined to come to my wedding. Fourth, our retired Methodist minister celebrates with us and our current Minister leads our service on our special day. I am blessed with a beautiful Godchild who calls me the “Fairy Godfather”!! Then we travel 4,000 miles and live in a new home and find friends in the UMC, where we experience love and fellowship from all, and where I help lead worship each week.

    In summary:
    It does not hurts the children. It shows the children that after loving God, love for all others is paramount, as Jesus of Nazareth said. It doesn’t hurt my parents, they love me and my spouse. My friends are amazing people and have been incredible to me. As have my wonderful family, immediate and distant. My God bestows on me blessings of more friendships through my church and the involvement there in leading worship, in social activities to support work within and for the community around us. It doesn’t hurt anyone who places love for their neighbors where it should be.

    In short:
    Sandi is wrong to say it hurts everyone Ben. It doesn’t, as evidenced by the above.

  • Paul – homosexuality kills. Have you never heard of the “second death” – Hell? Christ said that will be the ending place of people committing that sin, amongst other sins.
    Homosexuals should spend time with a pastor learning how to become Christians – starting with renouncing their sin.
    Jesus loves you, but if you are still practicing homosexuality, you do not belong to Him. Your homosexuality would be a part of your old life, not your new life with Christ.
    I’m sorry. You may think you are married, but marriage is a covenant relationship between a man and a woman. Who has sold you this bill of goods, Paul.
    You should experience love from everyone, but love does not entail helping you to remain in your defiance of Jesus hon.
    It hurts children in that it does not teach them respect for Jesus and what He taught. God comes first – not sin. We are bringing up a new generation to love Jesus, not defy Him.
    blessings to you and I pray you find the real Jesus.

  • Sandi uses what she claims is the word of God to justify her dislike, contempt, and bigotry for gay people. She claims she loves us when she does nothing of the kind. She will repeat the tired lies of the religious right to give a rational appearance to her otherwise irrational response to gay people.

    There is nothing new here.

  • Thank you. Fortunately for me, there are a substantial number of medicos and scientists who agree with me, I’m in pretty good company.

  • Nogods: Clearly you have never been to a Christian charismatic or Pentecostal church service. While you might not be impressed by it you yourself, you will see many people who do claim to have had encounters with the divine.

  • Nogods: I am not sure how your idea helps the discussion. We could just as easily wait for Jesus to make a TV appearance approving the LGBT community.

  • Nogods: is it fair to say that you are an advocate of empirical scientific evidence? If so, I would point out that “science” and “nature” do not write textbooks either, but rather humans claiming to interpret science and nature.

  • Don’t forget the ignorant, the gullible, and the easily led. We don’t want to leave anyone out, do we?

  • Nogods: Oddly, our current presidential candidates also feel the need for others to support them with money, and to defend them. Does this mean that they do not really exist either….? Or that the things they claim to represent (freedom, security, etc) are all complete fabrications?

  • Richard Rush,
    If the bible is so irrelevant, why does the controversy that we are discussing exist…?

  • OK RNS, there’s such a thing as news placement and duration. We’re now in the second week of your singing the praises of a Lesbian bishop. Shall we try for three?

  • Floydlee: I agree with your assessment that Oliveto is a smart cookie. However, I do not agree that what she is doing is simply a “gay tactic”: anybody trying to make a point for their cause, whether conservative or liberal, will try to insert themselves into the system in such a way that it will make the “establishment” look bad if they try to get rid of them. The Republican National Committee is experiencing this right now with the Trump movement, for example.

    In the case of Oliveto, the bishops have two equally unpleasant choices: they can try to kick her out through some sort of church trial. The problem is that United Methodists hate big church trials, and will normally resort to compromise to avoid them (google “Methodist church trial” for some recent examples of this). It is clear that Oliveto is aware of this Methodist tendency and is exploiting it, especially in the aftermath of the tragic events at the nightclub in Orlando.

    The other alternative is for the UMC to try to kick the can down the road again, as they have for the past several decades, and choose to wait for the new revision on church sexuality that will supposedly come out in 2 or 3 years. This is what I would bet on, if I were Oliveto: the committee may be delayed, or never report back, or come up with a new bland compromise that puts out the immediate fire but leaves no one satisfied. However, this will would leave Oliveto in place for a time period of between two years and forever, allowing rank and file United Methodists to get used to the notion of gay bishops remaining in place.

  • That makes so little sense for so many different reasons. See if you can figure out a few. Let me know if you need help.

  • Yes, only humans write books. For some reason, gods are incapable of doing that. They also never talk. They need men to do that for them as well. Why do you think that is?

  • His silence speaks volumes. So how about we err on the side of more freedom as opposed to less freedom, until Jesus makes his grand entrance. That should happen any day don’t you think? It’s only been 2,000 years so far.

  • And many people claim to see Elvis. It doesn’t mean they are right. A billion Muslims claim to experience their god. But I bet you think they are wrong. And just as they are wrong, so are you.

    Isn’t it weird how most Christians believe that their god listens to them and answers their prayers? For many, this is compelling evidence that their god must be real. So if their god heals them in response to prayer, why do Christians have the same life expectancy as everyone else (all other things being equal)? The simple math says that your god does nothing, and certainly isn’t healing people of anything. Do you think it is because he is fictional just like all the other gods you already know are not real? And when all your Christian friends claim to have been healed by your god, are they lying, or just mistaken?

  • My father was a United Methodist Bishop from 1968 and the “gender issue” had been tackled year after year to date. Just tired of this issue and I cannot reconcile how this openly gay Bishop can preach, teach advice his/her congregation about morality. The more I read about articles on this issue, the more I am encouraged to leave the UMC…may God bless and guide the United Methodist Church.

  • But if clinics like planned parenthood are eliminated, where are all the Christians going to go to get their abortions? Christians are opposed to abortion – until they need one. Then they are first in line at the clinic. TWO-THIRDS of all US abortions are performed on christians. (In 2011, the Guttmacher Institute reported that two out of three women having abortions in the U.S. identified as Christian. The same report said that of all U.S. abortions, 37% were undertaken by women who identified as Protestant, and 28% were Catholic.”)

  • Sandi so homosexuals despite being your neighbours are on your hate list you hypocrite. We will all die and then be dead forever. As you dint live yiur neighbour you wint be where I am

  • Scripturally speaking, I didn’t. The biblically illiterate are by definition biblically ignorant, and that ignorance naturally leads to gullibility and susceptibility to manipulation. In a less distractable time when people actually sat down and read the scriptures, instead of relying on sundry internet talking heads to tell them what it says, this nonsense wouldn’t last till the water got hot.

    In any case, only the biblically illiterate buy “shrimp” arguments. And of course you, as well as Larry, have done your own share of exploitation on this thread by offering them to the disadvantaged while knowing better yourself.

  • They won’t die if I can help them, Brian. I believe I made the same offer to you. One does not need to die and end up in perdition. You make the choice.

  • Not really, Shawnie. That’s not ow this works. It’s not how any of this works.

    I don’t “know” better. You pretend to know better. That’s how you are.

    You are the sola scriptorum girl, the one who claims that if it isn’t written, it isn’t true, or some such. The council of Jerusalem was a meeting of men– the brother of Jesus and Paul being chief among them. This Meeting of the Men made decisions about what constituted a proper Christian and a proper Jew, or as it was at the time, the Jewish heresy that became Christianity. It was a meeting of men who decided things, not God calling them together and saying “this is the way it is, folks”

    As it always is. You simply dismiss any evidence to the contrary. Thus, the abomination of eating shrimp, with abomination not meaning to us what it meant to the King James scholars, and ab ominare not meaning to them what to’evah meant to the Jews, And their Christian heresies.

    So no. I don’t know better. Neither do you, and neither does any other self appointed mouthpiece of God. We all of us, you included, Believe what we prefer to believe, because we have no declaration from God that would pass the least test for validity and reliability. That you refer to people as ignorant, biblically illiterate, gullible, and easily led, because they don’t see what you see or believe what you believe, says so much more about you than it does about other Christians.

    And certainly more than it does about me,or Larry, or Spuddie, or anyone else. As I have said to you many times, you are absolutely convinced that you are morally, religiously, and spiritually superior, that your knowledge– which I admit is extensive– constitutes capital T Truth, and not merely knowledge.

    ANd that is absolutely your privilege. But it doesn’t mean a thing, except to you and your fellow travelers.

  • Sandi that is arrogance that a reigious biggot like you imagines you can save peole by stopping them being gay !! You are so funny . Just try and imagine that God was gay and God sent gay peole to convert non gays . I woukd love to see you preaching your hated at a gay pride march . They woukd either laugh at you or make you vanish in ways you can’t even imagine . Hitler tried to stop peole being Jews he killed himself in the end . Get in with your iwn sex life abd leave others to wgat works fir them .
    Are you ine of those religious women who think they must obey their husbands in the sex department . If you are and you dint want the sex he offers but he insists that is Rape so have him arrested and locked away . Learn to resowct who you are then you might learn to love yourself then you may be able to love yiur neighbour as you love yourself and then you can call yourself a Christian rather than a religious biggot thanks fir the laugh

  • Sandi when I due I will be dead and gone forever my ashes in the sea so on any beach on earth you may tread on me ! Even you will be dead forever unless a few remember you existed and remember how you helped them so no gays will remember you .

  • I don’t stop them from being a homosexual. Jesus does. He said that He would heal us of our sin. Thanks for the complement though.

  • Sandi Jesus has been dead for 2000 years it’s written in an old book what matters abiut Jesus was his life of love nit the rubbish ithers write abiut him later . He is as dead as yiur ancestors and can’t change anything . Your arrogance continues to make me laugh . I love arrigsnt idiots as much as anyine else becuase I am a Christian and love my neighbour

  • “The council of Jerusalem was a meeting of men– the brother of Jesus and Paul being chief among them. This Meeting of the Men made decisions about what constituted a proper Christian and a proper Jew.”

    Nonsense. The Council’s conclusions are not things they made up out of their own heads but were a matter of scripture and HISTORY. Unlike most people today, they knew exactly what had and had not ever been required of righteous Gentiles and they knew the whys of it as well.

    But whether you believe they were right or not is neither here nor there. Believe what you please. The issue is that you are deliberately painting the “shrimp argument” as a contradiction that has no answer in scripture when that is quite clearly not the case — which those who have not the benefit of scriptural knowledge would have no way of knowing. And which matters not at all to you because your aim (as opposed to a believer’s aim) is not to search God’s truth out of scripture as Jesus and Paul both commanded but to convert as many people as possible to your way of thinking even if you have to misrepresent and exploit in order to do so.

  • “The Council’s conclusions are not things they made up out of their own heads but were a matter of scripture and HISTORY. Unlike most people today, they knew exactly what had and had not ever been required of righteous Gentiles and they knew the whys of it as well.”
    So, in other words, it was as I said: A meeting of men who were going to make decisions.
    As for your last sentence: Pot. Kettle. say hello.

  • “That you refer to people as ignorant, biblically illiterate, gullible, and easily led, because they don’t see what you see or believe what you believe, says so much more about you than it does about other Christians.” Learn to read, Ben — or at least to be honest. I don’t find people biblically ignorant when they believe differently but when they don’t KNOW the Bible. That’s kinda what “ignorance” means: lack of knowledge.

    As the prophets said: “My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge [ignorance]. Because YOU [the religious leaders] have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests.” Hosea 4:6.

  • Oh? And where exactly have I misrepresented scripture or exploited anyone’s lack of knowledge thereof?

  • Living my life as a happily married lesbian, reading people like you and wondering where the love for ones fellow being is. The love I practice daily as I volunteer with elders and children, making my community a better and safer place for all. Jesus has no problems with me, only some people who claim to be his followers, but can’t love their neighbors, do.

  • Sandi glad you found my words funny I do hope any LBGT folk will join this debate . Jesus seemed to spend most of his time with men , do you imagine he could have been gay ?? Who,e talk about sex and the bible rember if the Adam and Eve story is true then invest was how the rest if us came to exist and Adam and Eve may well well stuck all bits in all places as no one then knew how babies came to exist !!! So anal and oral sex both likley.

  • Aragon you have a very wierd version of the bible contains words and ideas that did not exist when first written I find tgat very funny .
    Is it the arrogant bible ” or the biggots bible ” it’s has nothing to do with the faith of Christinity as Christianity is all about love , first for self then for neibours !!!

  • These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.

    If you truly had knowledge of the scripture, you would know that Romans 1:27 is not telling Christians to execute homosexuals, rather that homosexual conduct for some individuals was caused because they chose to worship things other than God and that this would bring about their own end.

    It really looks like you have a superficial knowledge, and enough ability to look for websites that twist scripture.

  • Aragon what I laugh at with theists and Athiests is they each belive the othe is wrong and can’t prove it, remember Christianity is a faith as is Islam neither is a religion religions are all about obedience and rules faiths are about how to live. . Each religion claims they have the one true God but none is prepared to respect that each religion has the same belief , jihadist belive they are obeying their God and the IRA believed the same thing .

  • hon, Jesus has no problems with you – that’s correct. Jesus does have a problem with the sexuality that you participate in. Christ said that homosexuality is a sin, and that homosexuals will not see the Kingdom of Heaven. He was very clear about that. So, as you are participating in the sin with another person, you are helping that person to not see the goodness and blessings of Jesus, just for sex. Is that love? No. Of course not.
    Jesus loves you but wants you how He wants us. Jesus does not allow homosexuality and if one thinks so, they are following an idol and not the Lord.
    Loving your neighbour is not letting them die in sin. Christ said that homosexuality is a sin and that those people will not see Heaven. blessings to you Daulphin

  • No, dear, Jesus is totally fine with my wife of 24 years and I, our love for each other and loving path we walk in this world. We were told to have a personal relationship with god, and we do. We are as god made us. My wife married men twice trying to be something she isn’t. It was painful for all involved.

    You negate the science that shows we are a natural occurance in the world.

    Sex is the smallest part of our relationship, one in which we chose to walk our paths to god together, although we each believe somewhat differently. Making love, becoming one with another, is an important part of any relationship and brings us about as close as humans can be to the bliss of being one with god. In your desire to deny us that, you expect us to live a life of hell on earth, a life of loneliness, no partner, no helpmeet, no one to hold you when you hurt, no one to take care of you when you are ill. Not hot bath waiting after you’ve been out shoveling snow. No one for a quiet dinner, where conversation is unnecessary because of the close intimacy you share. No one to hold at night, no one to snuggle and laugh with, no one’s hand to hold. No one to roll over and see in the morning who makes your breath catch and your heart skip a beat even when they are now old and no longer look like they did at 20. No one that thinks you are special and no one you hold close in your heart, as they hold you close in theirs. No one with whom to celebrate your triumphs, knowing how hard you worked toward them, no one to catch you in your defeats, having watched your efforts and loving you enough to help you try again, no one to parent with, or even no children at all.

    This is not a life you would choose. TO demand it of me, because I was born differently than you and you can’t comprehend that, is the sin.

    Go in peace, to love and serve the lord, not yourself and your opinions. Don’t bother answering with bible quotes, am not a believer of the bible, or any religious writings for that matter. Gave it all up 40 years more than 40 years ago. Nor am I christian, I am a person who spreads the love god is, not one who is arrogant enough to tell people I don’t know that they are sinning, when they don’t look at life and god as I do.

  • For me the issue comes down to call. Many in the LGBTQ community claim a call to ministry. If they then demonstrate God-given gifts and graces for ministry, I must consider that the call might be genuine. If genuine, then who am I to oppose God? In reading the Acts of the Apostles and other New Testament letters, I am reminded that the church struggled to accept God’s expanding grace when God first began calling uncircumsized Gentiles to ministry. Change never comes easy in the church, especially when that change violates older rules and traditions.

  • This is Christ’s word on the matter:

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11English Standard Version (ESV)

    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    New International Version

    Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body.

    1 Timothy 1: 9-11 “ …. understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers,a liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.”

    Leviticus 18:22 – 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

    1 Corinthians 10:8English Standard Version (ESV)
    8 We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day.

    Romans 126 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

    1 Thessalonians 4:3-8New International Version (NIV)
    3 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should learn to control your own body[a] in a way that is holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; 6 and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister.[b] The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8 Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.

    Galatians 5:19-21
    New International Version (NIV)
    19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    and on and on. If you think otherwise, you are fooling yourself.
    Also, Christians do not sin unrepentantly:

    Hebrews 10:26-27New International Version (NIV)
    26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

    1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
    John 8:47 – 47 The one who belongs to God listens to the words of God. The reason you don’t listen is because you don’t belong to God.”

    You need to get yourself right with Jesus hon. blessings to you.

  • 1 Peter 2:11 – English Standard Version
Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul.

  • Perhaps god is guiding the methodist church, but the stubborn jackasses would prefer to cling to old prejudices and not be guided.
    Conservative Christians prayed to god on sodomy laws, on don’t ask don’t tell, or gay adoption, on gay marriage, on defunding planned parenthood, on electing Mittens Romney, on electing John McCain, as well as a host of imprecatory prayers directed at out president.
    in all cases, god said no. And still you persist.

  • I would think what they consider their call to ministry, may be, a call to holiness and a life with Jesus, after they repent of their sin. God is not going to use someone in that respect who will be leading people to Hell and perdition. He loves us.

  • Your have made a false dichotomy. Atheism has nothing in common with Theism. Atheism is not a claim of certainty. Atheism only means: “I do not believe a god exists”
    Agnosticism is not a claim either. Agnostic means: “I do not KNOW if a god exists”

    Most Atheists are Agnostic. Simply demonstrate the existence of a god and our Atheism is destroyed.

    That is all it is. I have no idea whether gods exist or not – there might be a god on Pluto for all I know!

    Theists are different! they CLAIM TO KNOW which god exists AND TO KNOW WHAT IT WANTS
    EVEN FROM THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN IT.

  • Aragon very funny none are abiut what is true theists believe God exists and atheists believe God does not exist . Look at the logic of that , hiw can you boieve that some thing you believe does not exist does not exists??
    Anyone is free to Bleive as they choose but O one cn choose to NOT BELIEVE something they don’t boieve !!!
    I am a Chrkstian agnostic I will be agnostic until the theists and atheists decide which one is talking rubbish??
    Please list wht you don’t boieve without making reference to anything you don’t BELEIVE!!!
    Then try listing a few things you do believe withiut reference to what you don’t boieve !!!
    Bith theism and atheism are illogical as each claims the other to be untrue with no evidence tht it is untrue
    Being agnostic is logical!!! As there is no opposite!!!

  • I taught “scripture” during my 49 years as a Christian. I raised my children in the Church – I certainly know it much better than you apparently do.

    “the due penalty” (Romans 1:27) is a direct reference to “Kill Homosexuals” (Leviticus 20:13) It is being singled out by Christianity as a special kind of “sin.”

    But this is garbage.

    The word “sin” is a made up word for a crime against an imaginary character.
    “Sin” is a dangerous, corruptible word from an ignorant, superstitious age. “Sin” tries to stand in for “IMMORAL Behavior.”

    Sin is a word to abandon.

  • “all about love”

    No it isn’t. That is the nonsense you get from Pastors who don’t teach what Jesus said!

    Who does Jesus consider his “enemies”?

    “You are either with me or against me” – JESUS (Matthew 12:30)

    JEWS ARE THE DIRECT ENEMIES OF JESUS:
    “the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us…THEY DO NOT PLEASE GOD, and are contrary to all men…for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.” – PAUL (1 Thessalonians 2:14)

    GAYS ARE THE ENEMIES OF JESUS:
    “In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty [Leviticus 20:13] for their error.” (Romans 1:27)

    ‘THEY’ – ALL NON-CONFORMISTS ARE ENEMIES OF JESUS:
    “Avoid them!” – (Romans 16:16)
    “Beware of the dogs [non-Jews]!” – (Philippians 3:2)
    “Slaves shall be beaten” – JESUS (Luke 12:47-48)
    “You are nothing without me” – (John 15:5)
    “the kingdom of heaven advances with violence” – JESUS (Matthew 11:10-15)
    “Let him who has done this be removed from among you.” (1 Corinthians 1:13)
    “have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.” (2 Thessalonian 3:14)
    “If anyone does not love the Lord, let that person be cursed!” (1 Corinthians 16:22)
    “you shall be tossed and burned… like sticks” – JESUS (John 15:6)

    Are you pretending to build a Jesus from other sources? That is willfully ignorant.

  • I agree that Thists imagine they are right and thise who disagree are wrong . But atheists do the same !! I don’t care which one says what is TRUE as FAITH does not rely on the existence or non existence of God . BUT religion does and each religion clips to be following the one true God . Jihaodts use tht as thier excuse to kill non Jihaodts , Zionists use the same idea to bomb children who are not ZIONISTS, the IRA use the same excuse to kill thise who are not Catholics , same for Brehteren who will not have anything to do woth non Bretheren and the same for JWs and Mormons!! All such are EXTREMISTS who have no respect for those who are not the same as them!! Tht us hiw Hitler chased WW2 and what trump is using to get to the White House and the Tories use the same idea and vilify any non Tory!!!
    Extremism is all abiut a lack of respect!! a lack of love !!!

  • Aragon please don’t quote old books at me as anyone can find excuses for doing anything if they hunt hard enough in all old books!!!
    Christianity is a faith , faiths are aw ay if living and with Christinity tht way js LOVE tht was why jesus was killed beckase the authorities wanted people to OBEY them.

    I expect you call lyur self ” I” as do I and as everyone I ever met does , so please read these words and remember the name you call yourslef.
    ” I am the way the truth and the life ” and love lyur Neighvour as yourself ”
    If we each lived our lives by thise 14 words there would be no crime no need for any gods or for anyone who died to be alive!!!
    As I said I am a Chrostian agnostic who lives by thise 14 words and anyone can live by thise words with no need to OBEY!!! Just think!!

  • And do you abstain, as this verse tells you?

    And you read nothing I wrote. I already stated that it would be pointless to quote the bible to someone who doesn’t believe in it. How about I quote the Tao De Ching to you? Would you take it as the word of god?

    My wife and I share a path with god, thank you. If our making love is a sin that lands us in hell, we would rather be in hell than with that god. Any one who condemns real love and it’s expression are denying god.

  • You don’t listen when someone says don’t bother with the bible, I don’t believe it. You could have posted from Star Wars or Harry Potter and have the same effect on me.

    I won’t judge your life or relationship with god, it’s no business of mine what you believe as long as all are treated with love and compassion. What you are doing to gay people here is not love and compassion, regardless how often you tell yourself it is.

    Do go and walk in peace, loving and serving god. As will I.

  • Argon rubbish . Either God exists or God does not exist, bith can’t be true !!! Which which is untrue ? I don’t care but am freeto laugh at thise who are theists or atheists !!!
    And whether God exists or not makes no difference to those who BELIEVE they are theists or atheists !!!
    But no one has a right to claim wht they believe is supperior to what others blieve which is what all religious people do and all anti RELIGOUS peolle do they all lack respect for difference .
    Remember yku are UNIQUE, NORMAL and PERFECT at being you so you are DIFFERENT from everyone else who ever existed !! The same qualities apply to us all and to every thing that ever existed at any time !!!
    Remember that was is TRUE cannot be proved we can only prove what cannot be true!!!
    So if you want to clim I have told you stuff that is not true then you have to prove lyur case !!!
    also there is only one person who we will ever change and its oursleves !!!

  • Aragon define ” salad” and learn to read what things might mean not what they SAY!!! If you can’t do are probably LEXIC not a condition I have ever suffered from!!! Look it up in any lexicon and tell me what you find!!!

  • Aragon I have total faith in my god! And total faith that my god must be like me so females must have their gods like them and to rues must have tiry gods and Nazis Nazi gods . So your stem ent abiut me is untrue . But you are free to believe as you choose as am I and what we believe never changes what is true.

  • The problem is, one day you will have to deal with Jesus. I’m trying to help you before that time comes. You say that you have a personal relationship with God. This is what God is saying to you.

  • I’ve shown you that you are not walking on God’s path, Daulphin – in several places. If you want to be right with God, He will forgive and heal you of your sins. Love does not put the object of their affection into Hell.

  • The early Christians prayed for an end to imperial persecution for over 300 years, Ben. That would be like from the late 1700’s until now. Three centuries.

    For 300 years, God said no.

    Until the evil Roman empire became Christendom.

    This little mess is flash in the pan. Even if it continues for another century –which I doubt — it will still be a flash in the pan.

  • No, dear, you have shown me I am not walking your path. That’s it . And you are right, love doesn’t put the object of their affections in hell. Which is why I do not believe a loving god will send me there for being as I was made to be. If that is god, I’d prefer hell to being any where near that god.

  • That’s your opinion, but it isn’t in any way true. You are telling me I don’t follow your god so I will be punished by your god.

    There is no way that a loving compassionate god has only one way to be with it, only one path to finding it and living in relation to it. 7 billion people in the world, thousands of different religions, hundreds of sect of christianity alone, god has provided many different paths, as there are many different people and cultures. If I, as a teacher, have a child who doesn’t understand a particular way to solve a math problem, can give that student another way to think about it that helps them solve the solution, it is ridiculous to think god has one and only one path.

    I also notice you have said nothing about what I wrote about the life you feel we should live. Typical to not own the pain Christians like you put on their gay children. Most of you seem to think we are better dead than being in living and loving with some one who we are actually able to love with our entire and authentic selves.

  • No. I’m telling you what God said. You’ll get your wish, I’m afraid. God bless you and I pray you learn the truth.

  • The compassionate God, who created you, did not will for you to choose homosexuality. He set the rules and standards of what He expects from us – to show our love for Him. You have chosen to defy Him and follow an idol, as stated in the book of Romans.
    Jesus said: John 14:6 – New International Version
    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” Your idol will not get you to Heaven.
    Actually, I fear the pain that you put on children who think they may be homosexuals, as the lies of the homosexual activists not only make these children suicidal, they put these children on the road to Hell – you don’t do that to people you love. Homosexuality is neither immutable or innate, yet these add these lies to innocent children. Christ said that homosexuality is a sin and that He would heal us of our sin. The homosexual activists only offer death.
    Christ is the creator. He calls the shots, and He said that you are on the wrong road. I don’t wish that for you and wish you could hear His love for you – because He does love you, but hon, you’re going down the wrong path. Please don’t take anyone else there and hurt them too.
    Jesus offers life, and life more abundantly.

  • I think you should live the life God wants you to live, not in defiance. Why would you want to defy the One who created you and then died so that you don’t have to, if you choose to accept His gift.

  • You have told me what you honestly believe. That is not telling me what god said.

    You negate my relationship with god, and what that personal relationship has told me.

    I have room for you and your god in this walk of life, why have you no room for mine?

  • I am so far not in defiance that your comment is ludicrous. God and I have a great relationship. It just isn’t yours.

    The entire concept of a god that sends himself to earth, to kill himself as a human sacrifice to himself, to forgive his creation for behaving as he made them is psychopathic.

    But it works for you, that’s great!

    It doesn’t work for me. The idea of an individual god that could even be called “him” is pretty far fetched, let alone a god who pays attention to the every move and even the sex lives of 7 billion people. Any god capable of creating universes isn’t human like in any way, and thinking we are the pinnacle of creation is hubris.

    Live love. Cherish others. Walk in peace. Be Jesus, don’t worship Jesus.

    You words here do nothing to convince, they reek of pride, not love.

  • Hon….take my word for it, you will meet Him one day – whether on His terms, or the path you have chosen. Please choose life.

  • I’ve given you all the scripture that you should need. One, you are sinning. Two, Jesus will heal you of that sin. Three, if you don’t renounce your sin, you will end up in Hell. Now, you can follow your idol who probably agrees with everything you want to do, or you can follow Jesus, the One who created you and is looking for you to love Him also. There is only One God Daulphin.
    1 Corinthians 8:6 – New International Version
    …yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    God wrote about what you have done hon….Romans 1:21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.”
    If you pray, you pray to thin air.
    Isaiah 42:8 – New International Version
    “I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols.”

    Jesus loves you. He loved you enough to die for you, so you won’t have to, and He came back in the flesh to prove that He is God.
    Don’t choose death, Daulphin

  • You have no respect for anyone’s beliefs but your own. I have been kind, I have been caring. I have told you about our lives, and you don’t care about real children in real situations who will kill themselves because of your message.

    Good day and good luck

  • “If the bible is so irrelevant, why does the controversy that we are discussing exist…?”

    Because, while the bible is irrelevant to me, it is not irrelevant to multitudes of Christians who insist that they are entitled to dominion, and therefore have the right to impose cherry-picked bible verses onto everyone else.

  • I feel sorry for those to whom you “taught” scripture, if you have so little understanding of it.

  • How can you figure you have “faith” when you already said you don’t know if it exists????
    That’s like me being confident I have a million dollars when I don’t even know if I have a bank account!

  • “don’t quote old books”
    Thanks for admitting the 10 Commandments are old bogus.
    Thanks for admitting “He is Risen” is old bogus.
    THE ONLY BOOK WHICH MENTIONS YOUR JESUS IS AN OLD BOOK which you have called bogus.
    What does that leave you with?

  • This showed up at the top rather than here.

    Occam’s razor.

    It just took them that long to take over Rome. Constantine was quite the politician. After all, he handed old Rome, rotten to its core, over to its new Christian masters, and took off for the sunny shores of Marmara, where New Rome persisted for 900 years.

    Sounds more lie history and less like mythology that way.

  • Aragon either God exists or God does not what makes you imagine that something that may not even exist has gender? Theists fight to claim God exists and atheists fight to argue that God does not exist agnostics laugh at them bith as it matters not what matters is one of them must be wrong but which one !!,

  • Aragon the 14 words I have chosen to live by would still exist withiut Jesus or the bible !! And everyone who calls themsleves ” I” could choose to live by thise same words!!! No contradictions in my case at all!!!
    It’s like hiw we evolved from light it would still be true even if eninsteins newton and Darwin had never lived !!!!
    Many years ago there was an answer ” 42″ to a question which I will come to . The answer can’t be 42 becuase I am not 42!! The answer must be TRUE as any answer that is NOT true is not the answer!!!
    The question ” what is the answer to the world the universe and everything ” and the answer MUST be true .

    Please make me laugh by giving an answer to any question that you know jsNOT true !!!

  • Aragon very true but there is evidence not in the bible that a man called Jeus existed but even if he had not the 14 words in which I have faith would. People of religion need Jeus to exist and to be alive and for God to be his dad!!! So many things that can’t be true !!! But can be believed!!!

  • Aragon I have faith in 14words that I can say and anyone,se can say if they choose . No assumption s abiut anything else? If you can have faith in having money when you know you have no money you need to learn to think!!!

  • Aragon when I have aSAD I can ide tidy all the different ingredients not so easy in a soup!! If you can’t find the meaning in what I wrote that is your problem not mine .

  • Aragon I have neither the boeuf that God exists or that God does not exist !! I am agnostic I have no interest in whether God xist or God does not exist! I also have no interest in being religious or not being religious !! I hope that clarifies things for you.
    We are each free to boeuve as we choose but have no right to claim that what others beiuve is WRONG as what ithers blieve can only be DIFFERENT

  • You make a valid point, at which I cringe, yes a large number of self-identified Christian women have had an abortion, on the other hand, there are a wide range of “Christians” who don’t really meet the standard. i.e. they deny the divinity of Jesus, they link Lucifer and Jesus as brethren, they abrogate scores of biblical precepts for their own convenience. Jesus will know when and how to separate the sheep from the goats.

  • Except, you never merely declare, “I don’t believe a God exists” you flatly deny, based on what you suppose to be evidence, that He does not exist. There is a considerable difference.

  • No question that God answers prayers in His Own time according to His eternal purpose, and some times that answer is in the negative. I trust He knows something I don’t.

  • Wrong. I only deny the claim that you can define or know the god which may exist.
    Theists claim to KNOW and they claim to DICTATE TO OTHERS what god is – that is the problem.

  • I’m told a “real god” interacts with humanity. I see no sign of it.
    I’m told a “real god” answers prayers – I see no sign of that either.
    I’m told Yahweh is the real god. I’m told Jesus is the real god. I’m told they are the same. I’m told Allah is the real god. I’m told Vishnu is the real god. And Ganesha….etc.

    I see no reason to believe in any of these claims.

  • YOU said you “have faith” in god – yet your are agnostic.
    That is like saying you have full confidence your house won’t fall down while saying you do not know whether you own a house.

  • Aragon indeed the is no need to believe anything you hear or read abiut if there is no evidence that is may be true
    Niw just as there are those who argue God exists there are others who argue God does not exist neither has any evidence hence I am agnostic !!! I find bith atheists and theists funny as they each Bleive the oposte of the other and neither has any evidence that the ither is wrong !!!
    Remember what us true can’t be proved only what can’t be true can be !! Tht is how all logical thinking and science works.
    Take a simple court case . A person arrives claiming to be innocent and they stay that way until they are proven to have been a lier !!! If no evidence of them lying is produced in court they leave court innocent as they arrived !!! Most who do things that are wrong and lie never ever end up in court !!! It’s like love , if yku claim you love someone to get something from them thatbjs NOT love it’s a lie , as love can be seen by the behaviour of the oerson professing love !!!

  • You don’t get it.
    You say you are agnostic. This means “I don’t know if God exists.”
    One cannot simultaneously “believe” and “not know”!
    So You are an Atheist. You do not believe in a god. You are pretending to believe – that is all you are doing.
    Why lie?

  • Aragon I blieve I said faith in my god!! A very Differnet statement as my god is my god nit to be confused or compared with your God and nothing to do with God who we are told is The one true God!!, and theism , atheism and agnosticism are about God .
    If each person claimed to have thier own and left others to thier own then all the RELIGOUS wars and crusades and Joihaodts would not exist as Jihaodts just kill non Jihaodts becuase thier God tells them to!!! And the IRA do the same as do all arrogant groups who each claim THE ONE TRUE GOD Is the one they worship!!!! But there can only be one true God or perhaps one true god for each of us!!!

  • Aragon funny you should say that !! If money was real and existed and had a real value then how do we get CRASHES and resession S? How could people make money by buying and selling money ??? Hiw could prices go up or down ??
    My god is true of course there is no evidence there is also no evidence that my god is not true !!!
    Of course faith is not money if it were we would only need one word!!!

  • Aragon I never need a reason to do anything I do need a reason to take others seriously!! If Jeus never existed my faith in the 14 words could still exist!!! What do you have faith in and what if some of what you boeuve were to be proved to be untrue ?? That is the issue the religious on here have when I show them that thier claims from the bible cannot be true !!,thier faith based on God creating everything and writing the bible and being the dad of Jeus all go out if the window and they have a go at me and I laugh!!!
    I live in heaven they hate that !!

  • Aragon I have not lied!! You have made assumptions !! We can only KNOW what we each KNOW , we can’t KNOW what we don’t know , we can each blieve as we boieve but we can’t judge the belief of another . As I have said either God exists ( theists) or God does not exist ( atheists ) one must be wrong and a lie but which one ? When they device betwen them which is a lie then I may cease to be agnostic !! I make no claims for the existence or non existence of any God!!
    And as I said anyone is free to Bleive as they choose despite what is true !! I am a Christian agnostic ,

  • Aragon try using a dictionary fdefinition for the words you use

    Agnostic | Definition of Agnostic by Merriam-Webster
    http://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary
    Full Definition of agnostic. 1 : a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God.

    Exactly as I have been saying !!
    Please feel free to look fir contradictions in what I write!! But never claim I am wrong just bciase I don’t boieve as you do !!,

  • You are Wrong again!
    Leprechauns either exist or they do not exist. But THAT IS NOT THE QUESTION!
    The only relevant question is this: “Do you BELIEVE IN LEPRECHAUNS?”
    I SAY THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE IN ANY LEPRECHAUNS. I never said anything about whether GOD exists!

    That does not mean I object to Leprechauns or gods. It does not mean I hate leprechauns or gods!

    I reject everything about your formulation. You simply do not understand what you are talking about.

  • I don’t need a foolish dictionary to tell me the meanings of such words!
    AGNOSTIC = “I DO NOT KNOW IF A GOD EXISTS”
    ATHEIST = “I DO NOT BELIEVE A GOD EXISTS”

    Neither position is a claim about WHETHER a god exists. These positions are only responses to THEIST CLAIMS!

    Just prove your God exists AND STOP TELLING ME ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS! Feelings do not matter, only evidence matters.

  • I’m not telling you what to believe! What are you talking about? Don’t change the subject.
    You said Atheists and Theists are making the same argument – and YOU ARE WRONG.
    THEIST = “GOD EXISTS AND I KNOW WHICH GOD IS THE TRUE GOD”
    ATHEIST = “I DON’T BELIEVE THIS”

    You are pretending there is something more to this – you are wrong.

  • Why would I want to prove tht either God exists or God does not exist!! And never try to tell me how to behave as it makes me laugh!!!

  • Why not learn to read for meaning rather than looking for fault as yku read!!!
    Wood u lik am illion pownds?? I bet you can read that!!,

  • Stop laughing and start reading and comprehending!
    you said “Atheists claim there is no god, lol!”
    That is garbage. I am not claiming there is no god. Prove your god exists or you just sound foolish saying you have faith in it!

  • Aragon it’s very simple but too simp,e for you theists and atheists believe the oposte to each other and neither is prepared to admit they Are mistaken hence I am agnostic thanks for the laugh .

  • Aragon very funny you are clearly LEXIC . Would you like a million pounds ? Simple if you read fir meaning rather than looking for fault if I were atheist I woukd be like you and that makes me laugh

  • Aragon oh no I’m not!, I told you I believe in ” god” my god but have no opinion about God the one you don’t believe in and theists do believe in .

  • Being LBGTQAI os NOT a sin, Sandi, it is how people are born. Would it be a “sin” if your adult height was much taller or shorter than average? No. If most people have brown eyes and you have green eyes, are you a “sinner?” No, I rest my case.

  • I rather question Max’s claim about having “taught” Sunday School. I’ve asked him numerous rather straightforward questions from scripture in the past and received only deer-in-the-headlights bewilderment in response.

    Perhaps he simply “taught” a pre-packaged Sunday School curriculum, such as I know mainlines often use, with lots of pictures and little scriptural substance.

  • Sin is a word to abandon

    Sounds more like someone has abandoned themselves TO sin.

  • Economics is indeed faith, not much in the way of science. as my old professor, C. West Churchman used to say, “That which is perceived as real is real in its consequences.”
    we all believe that money has value, therefore, it does.

  • You are talking about the difference between an intrinsic characteristic of a person and an activity.

    Some people (not me) believe that people are born with a Same Sex Attraction. That is a (potentially) intrinsic characteristic. The characteristic is, in and of itself, not a sin.

    Acting on the attraction, however, is against God’s Word, just as if I acted on my attraction to women other than my wife.

  • Brian – If you believe that Jesus IS dead, then you do not believe the Gospel of Jesus the Messiah.

    1 Cor 15:1-4 Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which I proclaimed to you, which you have also received, in which you also stand, by which you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed to no purpose. For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised up on the third day according to the scriptures,

    1 Cor 15:17 17 But if Christ has not been raised (from the dead), your faith is empty; you are still in your sins.

  • The Levitical Law about anal sex (not oral sex) between men (Lesbian activity is never mentioned in Leviticus) is a ritual purity law, not a moral law. For instance, it isn’t immoral to eat pork, but eating unclean foods is declared to be an abomination (same word as in Leviticus in Deuteronomy 14:3.) In other words, unclean foods are ritually impure. And certainly it is false to claim the Bible always condemns all sex outside of heterosexual marriage. If a woman was NOT betrothed, there was no penalty for her having sex with a man (Exodus 22:15 and Deuteronomy 22:28). There was one, IF she was betrothed. (Deuteronomy 22:23-27) Men were only esp. penalized if the woman was betrothed to another man (Deuteronomy 22:24).

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