Beliefs Culture Jana Riess: Flunking Sainthood Opinion

7 dating tips for Mormon women, helpfully mansplained for you

Milo
Milo

Milo

Milo

Over at “Mormon Game,” there’s a piece this week that is so craptastically from a different century that it seems like satire but regards itself with utter seriousness.

As such it is train-wreck delicious.

In it, a Mormon man chides single Mormon women for their singleness.

Single women, listen up! You are up a creek without a paddle. You need marriage. You need motherhood. And you are falling short.

You had also better hurry; that pesky clock is ticking. Whereas men only get more attractive as they age because “they gain a career, a house, [and] life experience,” your equivalent economic success and life experience are essentially worthless and can even be liabilities. What matters most are your body and your appearance:

What happens to women as they age? The window of opportunity for birthing children becomes shorter, they become jaded and lose their cheerful visage, and they become stuck in a lifestyle that makes a family less practical.

Think about it logically as if you were a man. Would you date the old career women who doesn’t [sic] have time for a date except on Saturdays, or the sprite 19 year old who eagerly awaits what’s ahead of her?

So: single Mormon women over the spritely age of 19 . . . We don’t want you to you lose your cheerful visage! THANK GOODNESS that this author has provided 7 tips for you based on his life experience and observations. (Sadly, he reports that he is already taken himself, but perhaps by following his advice you can find another Mr. Collins exactly like him.)

  1. “Admit you have little chance of getting married.”

He begins his article with a stark reminder of the statistics about how much more difficult it is for you to find husbands than it is for Mormon men to find wives, and how severely outnumbered you are demographically.

But sisters, if you’re imagining that his acknowledgment of reality will spark compassion for the impossibility of your situation . . . uh, no. It’s still entirely your fault that you are single, as you will see in the other six tips. So you’d better get busy.

  1. “Get over your bitterness.”

All you old single women are bitter, says our author. A lot of this is due to the fact that you read dangerous feminist blogs and fantasize that Heavenly Mother is real. It’s probably just because your aging female brains desiccate at such an alarming rate that you get these ridiculous ideas about gender roles.

The key for getting over your bitterness is to put men first. Nothing is more important than men. Duh. Why wasn’t that obvious?

If a desirable man asks if you are free for a date, you are free. Don’t be afraid that you come off as desperate. Unless you are foaming at the mouth crazy, the eagerness you display is a good thing. Make time for him. Practice dating behaviors that any 19 year old would practice to snag a good boyfriend. Do whatever it takes to emotionally take yourself there–yoga, meditation, telling yourself that you are beautiful, etc. You don’t have to be emotionally invested in a man to make time for a date on Friday night.

So sisters, if you don’t have the good fortune to actually be 19, which is clearly the gold standard in ages for datable women, just pretend that you are. Make like you don’t have your career, and your calling, and your family, and your mission experience, and your extensive network of satisfying friendships . . . and return to the girlish lass you used to be before you, you know, began actually adulting. If someone with whom you cannot imagine a future deigns to ask you out, reinvent yourself as if you just graduated from high school.

  1. “Go to the temple.”
Recent Mormon Game blog posts

Recent Mormon Game blog posts

The temple is where “worldly lies” about gender roles are unmasked, he says. Therefore it is essential that you go.

But please don’t go in order to serve a mission, which interferes with marriage while you are young. Getting married young is ideal for women because you can still be molded and guided by your husbands like the good Lord intended.

No, rather than taking out your endowments before you serve a mission, it’s better just to go to the temple to learn about your priesthood, and how you don’t really have it.

  1. “Love men.”

Our author begins this section by quoting a New York Times op ed by Mormon writer Nicole Hardy explaining how hard it was for her to find Mr. Right. His take?

A man would have to be crazy to date this woman, for several reasons. Most obviously, she generalizes all single men as pathetic losers while pridefully propping herself up as some victimized princess. I was an older man struggling in the dating scene, and there were many woman [sic] who generalized me as a porn addict or socially awkward or something else. And I was short, or as this feminist put it “unlucky,” and the same angry women who complain about shallow guys refused to date me because of my height.

Now sisters, I know that some of you reading this may be protesting that the reason this author had trouble finding a wife had nothing to do with his height and everything to do with his utter lack of respect for women, but you will just have to take his word for it. This is a section about why women need to love men, full stop, not why men should endeavor to be worthy of that love. So get your adulation on:

You need to still love men, love everything about them. Their masculinity, their quarks, their faults, their diversity, their appearance, their humor, their roughness–everything.

I know what you are thinking after reading this: Men do not have “quarks.” Oh, but even the fact that you dismissed this as a mere typo reveals that there is so, so much you don’t know about men. Of course men have quarks, silly. Men contain fathomless depths of fascinating mysteries. Just because you can’t see their subatomic particles with your own eyes just shows how old those eyes are, because you are a presbyopic spinster.

Now, before we leave this section, we need to cover another vital point the author makes here:

It is very important to remain a virgin. A virgin makes a better wife and better mother.

Mic drop. Bar = raised. Apparently it is not enough to stay a virgin when you are single; you also have to remain one while you are a wife and mother.

So to your long list of things to do today, be sure to add “Ask Mary about secret of parthenogenesis.” Your future husband will thank you.

  1. “Stop being a feminist.”

Obvo. Feminism bad. Therefore this is a very long section in our author’s crusade.

It is difficult to be a traditional woman in today’s psychotic Western culture, where every film that Hollywood produces seems to portray women as warrior goddesses who save men from physical danger, and every school teacher props girls up so that they get superior grades.

Yes, all those films like Captain Miss America and Ant-Woman and Batwoman v Superwoman and X-Women may appear empowering, as Hollywood churns out one blockbuster after another in which superheroic women rescue helpless gentlemen in distress, but they are feminist lies. Just as it is a feminist lie that women can get good grades on their own merits. You single women are so dumb that you probably believe you earned those degrees yourself. Ladies, a reality check, please: you did not earn anything that was not handed to you by a magnanimous man. Don’t forget to whom you owe your gratitude.

Feminism has told you many other lies as well, like that same-sex marriage is morally acceptable, or that you have anything to complain about in this day and age when everything is 100% fair for women – as evidenced by his post.

So stop it with your cussing, which all feminists apparently do, and your tattoos and unfeminine behavior. Real feminism is based in femininity, which means being a wife and mother, which brings us to point #6.

  1. “Admit you want marriage.”

Marriage has been terribly undervalued in our culture, says the author. Consider this example, drawn from real-life statistics apparently, that shows just how poorly we Americans regard marriage:

Statistically, it [marriage] is destined to fail. The typical thing these days is for girls to drunkenly party through college, get a nice job in their mid-twenties that they don’t deserve, marry a decent man before they hit the wall and lose beauty, divorce this man ten years later and receive monthly checks and full custody, and then marry a wealthy man and spend their old age touring the Caribbean islands.

That certainly describes a lot of women I know. Because of course.

By contrast, real marriage is sacred, which you will understand if you ever get off your aging, bitter feminist ass and go to the temple:

If you do this I am confident you will want marriage. Even though there is no temporal safety or welfare that men can give you that you can’t get as handouts from the government, as in the old days. Even though you will be rewarded if you divorce your husband and move on to your next victim. Even though our disgusting popular culture perverts marriage. Marriage is the only way you will be fulfilled as a daughter of God. I repeat: Marriage is the only way you will be fulfilled as a daughter of God.

Single women, let’s get real. Whatever else you do in this life – however humanitarian you are, however smart, however loving and schooled in the gospel – you are going to be terribly unhappy unless you find a man like this author to marry. Which is why you should . . .

  1. “Dedicate yourself to self-improvement.”

Now, let’s be clear: he doesn’t mean you should follow the tips in self-improvement magazines. For God’s sake, don’t do that! Because in addition to their important tips that you should lose weight, sport makeup, and find a man, those same exponents of popular culture may also suggest you’re just fine without a man, which is another feminist lie. These magazines may tell you to cultivate your gifts and get a top-notch education. Honey. You don’t need a top-notch education to find a man, which is of course the ultimate goal of any self-improvement.

So just focus. Develop your femininity, stop dropping the effing F-bomb, and consider having plastic surgery that makes you look 19.

Well, 16 would be better, actually, because you’re only just going to start aging again. And we can’t have that.

 

 

 

 

About the author

Jana Riess

Senior columnist Jana Riess is the author of many books, including "The Prayer Wheel" (Random House/Convergent, 2018) and "The Next Mormons: How Millennials Are Changing the LDS Church" (Oxford University Press, 2019). She has a PhD in American religious history from Columbia University.

98 Comments

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  • This is a great summary! But you skipped my favorite part, in which the author humbled himself and actually took a few of these old women on dates and this self-sacrificing experience was so ennobling that he became even more attractive to ideal women (teenagers).

  • Sarcasm is lost on Mormons of BOTH sex/s… Marry wisely women or better yet run away from the culture that produced this. I’d wait til Kolob to find the perfect Mormon male G-d. Assuming any of them could fit through the eye of the needle.

  • I have never understood why the men’s rights, pick-up artist, and “game” types are so opposed to gay marriage. Doesn’t it mean less competition? Actually, I do understand it. Gay men, like everything else, are a threat to their heterosexuality.

  • Me either. but I can fantasize can’t I? Maybe I can buy some and wear them with a logo saying that on the front. Maybe this weekend in SLC at Conference. With a speedo of course

  • Indentation is the proper punctuation for quoting something that is longer than two sentences. Is there a paragraph that Jana didn’t indent? (Updated to note that apparently Rick went away… and did so without thanking me for my helpful explanation about grammatical conventions. Pfft.)

  • This post and the comments to it are funny. You see, the truth is that, while God may love “all you single women,” the Universe does not, and it is unforgiving and unmerciful. We don’t live in Heaven, but the Universe, so the rules of the Universe apply. And under those rules, a woman can be virtuous and feminine (as the Mormon game author suggests) and find a mate and have children (this is the K-reproductive strategy), or be a slut and have many mates (at least until she no longer is able to attract a mate) and have children (this is the r-reproductive strategy), or be a spinster and have no mates, and thereby edit herself out of the gene pool. But the key to reproducing is being able to attract a mate. The Mormon Game author attempted to help you with the “attracting a mate” issue. You can deride his opinions, but the Universe does not care.

  • I’ll venture to guess Collins hasn’t read what King Lemuel’s mother prophesied in counsel to him regarding what makes a good partner. She described a very autonomous and professionally accomplished woman. Collins should start with the last two verses of Proverbs 31,

    “Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised. Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.”

    My partner and I were both older (by Mormon Standard Time) when we married. I had grown up having numerous peers and male leaders tell me to marry a young girl, so that I can shape her into who you want her to be. Even as a hormonal teenage boy that sounded really warped. This was an unwelcome reminder of what my daughter has to look forward to.

  • There are always jerks in any group. There are also generally good people who accept really hateful views based on group think and tribalism. I don’t love it when people I’d otherwise most likely get along with assume I’m an idiot just because I’m a Mormon.

  • I was kind of fond of the part where he said:
    “Last year, I wrote an important article”

    I highly doubt it was important, or that he is capable of anything important or interesting.

  • Thank the God I don’t believe in that I’m a gay man, because if I were a woman having to put up with this kind of thinking, I’d shoot either myself or him.

  • Yeah, and the guys who say this crap are usually not lookers themselves and have no personalities, marketable skills or any other redeeming qualities. There’s a reason guys like that don’t get dates and have to prey on teenagers. They hope that the teenagers won’t know any better. One could easily write a piece aimed at PUA, MRA’s and their ilk, but they’d probably ignore it and not do anything to improve themselves. The fact that these PUA artists are single is their own fault.

  • LOL. True enough–the laws of the Universe apply to men as well. But that doesn’t change the basic fact that the “good men” aren’t going to settle for second best or someone else’s castoffs. They certainly aren’t going to put up with someone that is obnoxiously argumentative and narcissistic with a massive entitlement complex. They don’t need to because “supply and demand”–the rules of the Universe.

  • The same applies to women though. There’s a huge entitlement complex amongst some of these MRA types of the PUA’s that makes them believe that they deserve a pretty spouse no matter what. In the past, even the most horribly irksome and insufferable men were somehow able to marry because at that time, women needed a man to support themselves. There were not a lot of careers that were open to us at all. Now, this has changed. Your use of the phrase “someone else’s castoffs” was very well put. Women today are seeing those men as exactly that.

    Now my beef with pieces like this is that the men who are writing this advice to women on how to get men are not looking at themselves. I have a cousin who is one of those MRA types. That guy smells horrible (he probably bathes once every two weeks) , his personality sucks, he’s terribly rude, he won’t get a job and the list goes on. His friends are the same way. These guys who write stuff like this are single themselves but they write articles telling women to lose weight and make themselves more attractive when the MRA’s won’t even hear of improving their own appearance or work on their own personalities.

  • I don’t know anything about the Mormon Game author, so I can’t speak as to his his personality or physical characteristics. He obviously touched a raw nerve with Jana Riess and the people commenting here. But while I see a lot of vitriol and sarcasm, I don’t see anyone actually refuting his advice that, to increase her prospects, a 40-ish single women should be an Eve rather than a Lilith.

  • Any one needs to improve themselves in order to attract a mate, this is granted. However, I’m not really religious ( I only saw this while cruising the internet and thought your own comment was something that could be made into a discussion) but isn’t Eve vilified as much as Lilith?

    I don’t know anything about this guy either. I read a little bit of his blog and it seems he’s combined his faith with whatever other movement he’s attached himself to. It is interesting that people can take their faiths and ideologies in so many different directions.

  • In the LDS traditions, Eve is not vilified but, instead, venerated. Essentially, Adam and Eve are viewed as having been presented with a Catch-22 (replenish and populate the Earth but refrain from partaking of the forbidden fruit). Although she had to break one of the commandments, she chose the better path, and therefore became the mother of all living.

    I guess I should add, that even though Eve was initially deceived by Satan, once she had tasted the fruit, she then spurned him. Probably not an easy thing to do when faced with the full force of the Devil’s personality and power.

  • Thanks for the clarification. I areligious myself, but as I was growing up, I heard some pretty vile things about Eve the fire and brimstone preachers that I used to hear in church. Lilith is a figure that is quite fascinating to learn about, but she was never mentioned in any of the baptist churches I used to go to.

  • I suspect that the LDS viewpoint of honoring Eve is very different from other Christian sects, probably because the “forbidden fruit” was not a sexual sin, but rather the fruit (or the eating of it) apparently granted or caused Adam and Eve to have a moral sense of right versus wrong. Like the lies of all skillful liars, Satan’s lie contained some truth.

    I’ve never heard Lilith mentioned in the LDS church, either. The only mention of her in the Bible I’ve heard of is (possibly) Isaiah 34:14 where it references a night demon in some translations (“screech owl” in the KJV).

  • They vilify Eve because she was easily led, and therefore, all women are easily led. It’s really irksome. I got tired of hearing that, and I stopped going. My life has been better for it. I really don’t want to say that it gets to you to continually hear preachers and other members of the clergy vilify you, tell you that because of the actions of that one mythological figure, you are this way, you are that way, you are female and therefore dirty, but yeah it kind of does. That’s one of the reasons that so many people are leaving. Enough is enough.

  • Apparently they are ignorant of the story of Faust. In any event, the point isn’t whether she was easily led to eat the forbidden fruit but that having eaten the fruit, she recognized Satan for who he was, and armed with that knowledge, rejected him.

  • Maybe since Eve now knew the difference between good and bad, she had a standard by which to judge the serpent.

  • i think it is a clever opinion on our American society, specially the Mormon one. One thing for sure is the marriage is not for everybody. Ideally it is, but the human factor makes this perfect institution a flawed one. The key is commitment. I have spent 15 years of my marriage working away from home, I had my chances to get a lover and live a happy dual life as some of my coworkers did. But I chose not to, I chose to continue on my personal commitment to woman whom I had married. I still remember with love and affection those available good women who wanted a relationship with me. We are still good friends, they have a special place in my little heart. I adore women. A man is not complete until he loves and he is loved by a good woman. Men must humble themselves and be a true help meet to the women whom are married to them. It is my personal opinion that if I treat my woman like a queen, she will become one and I in turn will become her king. Men, keep yourselves fit and healthy. Women, understand that men are graphic persons, everything comes through our eyes. Therefore keep yourselves fit, attractive and have a very active sex life. Sex is not a sin! Sex is GREAT! We are here because… our parents had sex!

  • But then why was she punished for eating of the tree? She wouldn’t know good from bad, she wouldn’t know death, she wouldn’t know what disobedience met and that it was a son.

    Doesn’t sound exactly fair.

  • Misty Hudson: We are graphic people! would I choose a newer car of an older car? (unless she is a Mercedes Benz 300). And by the way, skinny girls have better chances for a relationship. I love to take women shopping. A skinny woman finds better clothing than a chubby one. Just the facts.

  • Amen! Lots of other Christian groups have crossed over to the 21st century, and there they would find men who see women as equals and not as pretty young sex objects.

  • Two points: (1) although Adam and Eve did not have a sense of “good and evil,” they did know that they weren’t supposed to eat of the fruit; and (2) they weren’t so much punished as much as they suffered the natural consequences of their actions. An example: when my daughter was 2 years old, she liked climbing the shelves of a bookcase we had, even though she had been told not to do so. One time, she fell, and badly cut her lip–enough that we took her to the hospital because we thought she might need stitches. She didn’t understand good/evil, but she knew not to climb the shelves, which she did anyway. I didn’t punish her, but she suffered consequences from her actions (i.e., the cut lip).

  • As someone with a masters degree in animal behavior, let me just point out that the “rules of the universe” (that is, the rules of evolutionary biology until Christianity came along) promote polygyny in which the most fit males have multiple mates and the res of the males have zero mates. So hopefully you are extremely fit and are able to afford your multiple wives. Otherwise look forward to a life of celibacy and being beaten up by other males. Females, on the other hand, are a scarce resource and therefore can always find a mate.

  • Your comment ignores the context of the Mormon Game post and the response by Ms. Riess, that context being relationship issues within the LDS Church. The key population fact is that there are more women than men that are active within the Church. In other words, there are fewer potential mating options for LDS women seeking a man who is also an active member of the Church. Moreover, since the LDS Church gave up polygamy over a century ago, men simultaneously having more than one wife is not an option (unless they want to be excommunicated and, thereby, removed from the population of active LDS members). Thus, within the population of active Church members, men are the scarcer resource.

  • You made me curious enough to check out his blog, and… oh. My. Goodness. I really, really hope it’s somebody’s sick idea of anti-Mormon satire, because if this guy is serious, he’s a few fries, a soda, and a toy short of a Happy Meal.

  • Mormons need to create more mormons, cause anyone with half a sense would realize planet Kolob is Saturn and the L on the underwear symbolizes your pledge to Lucifer. Jeez, these people are sheep.

  • Why, o why, did I happen to fall into this maladroit whirlpool of festering foeces? There is something manifestly “Children of the Corn”-ish about being exposed to LDS ideologies. Remember this, human beings: counselling is available. There is a real world. There really, really is.

  • Or, you can be a sphincter who actually believes that he has some basic understanding of biology and of the humanities when he clearly does not ….

  • This isn’t “mansplaining” as much as it is disillusioning. Calling it mansplaining is trying to give it an aggressive stance that is not, in fact, there. It leans a bit into feminism but not radical feminism, so that’s not a bad thing.

  • I’m the Merry Widow now more than ever; I don’t have to play interested, dumber, or more helpless. If I’m intelligent, well good. If I’m handy or capable or strong, good. If I find someone interesting, we’ll converse. But I have found it liberating to cease all games. And if I miss out on a Mr. Right like this guy, well I’ll count my lucky stars.

  • Thank you, o Mighty Warrior who speaks for the Universe! We are so glad you are here to mansplain things to us, otherwise how would our tiny little brains comprehend the Universe’s miraculous plans for us??

    That’s some serious hubris, thinking that A. there is some kind of master plan in the universe that props up your sexist beliefs, B. You are the person who understands that master plan, and C. you need to take it upon yourself to explain this to other people. Wow, really?

    Seriously dudebro, this kind of stuff is way more appropriate on Return of Kings or wherever else you hang out when you’re not surfing for “Barely Legal” p*rn. Why don’t you mosey on back over there, and then you can spout these kinds of beliefs to your fellow dudebros, who might actually care? THANKS BYE

  • Please post a picture of yourself and your relevant stats (height, weight, fitness level, income, car you drive) so we can decide for ourselves how desirable you are. You don’t have to post your real name or recognizable face pics.

    Oh, wait. I forgot. Those external factors don’t make you a “good man.” What makes someone a “good man” is that they’re not a huge D-bag. So sorry, you lose. Wah-waaah.

  • I have a short male friend and he is a genuinely great guy. Not all of them have huge chips on their shoulders. They do put up with a lot of BS, both from men and from women. This guy hates women because he was poorly raised and has surrounded himself in echo chambers that just serve to reinforce his beliefs, don’t get it twisted. 🙂

  • LOL what? Did they recently change your medication or something? You might want to get them to change it back.

  • Actually I won. I have a wonderful wife, great kids, and am a partner at a thriving law firm.

  • I never said the universe had a master plan. I said that the universe doesn’t care about you.

  • Actually Adam, the Universe is completely neutral. On everything. Not one thing about it cares if life even exists, let alone how it’s lived. And not everyone needs to be married or have children to feel fulfilled in life either, nor to do good works. In fact, responsibilities to a spouse or children can limit the amount of good we do in the wider world, since there are only 24 hrs in every day and you can’t be in two places at once. Any religion’s emphasis on childbearing simply harkens back to tribalism, the breeding of as many of “us” as possible so as to resist or defeat “them”.

    As for the Mormon belief in families being reunited in a spiritual afterlife, why would a loving God limit us to that? Either everyone should feel like family or we’re stuck with the same drawing of lines we’re supposed to struggle to overcome in our mortal lives. If there is a Heaven, everyone in it better feel like my perfect relative, as I should feel to them.

  • I couldn’t read it all. Take out the Mormonsim and take a look at nature. That’ll give you the best guidance in life, man or woman.
    And read ‘Jesus & the Unabomber’ today.

  • Females are our partners, created to walk along side us (if you believe in that sort of thing). It took a very devoted LDS mother to raise a son this misogynistic. True mother’s boy. When you stop thinking of women as sex toys, perhaps you will find a partner that is willing to connect emotionally AND physically with you.

  • The author is as bigoted as the mormon. Mansplaining?, presumably she got paid to write this so use real words.

  • I’m sort of torn on this subject.

    On the one hand, being a person who values liberty and freedom, I’m with a lot of the sentiment expressed by the people who have responded negatively to this. Marriage really isn’t my thing, I’d rather be kind of selfish and do whatever I want too, so there’s that.

    On the other hand, I wonder about women who are responding in such a negative way if they have any intention of having children. The reason I say so is that if we value a results oriented approach to things, that is, if we simply look at the product and use that to judge whether the approach is a success or a failure, Mormon women are much more fertile than, say, a woman from New York City.

    Mormon families start young, and by the time they reach completed fertility, the age when they basically won’t have any more children, the average LDS family has 3.4 children.

    If you are a woman who considers herself intelligent, progressive, and thinks she’s got it all figured out living in the city, maybe ask yourself … if you value having children, is there any chance you’re ever going to have 3 or 4 children, ever ?

    66% of LDS adults are married, they have very low divorce rates, high fertility, are among the youngest of Americans populations due to their birth rates, and studies even show that they are happier than most of the rest of the country.

    My liberty has come at a price, I’m old enough now to look back and wonder about what could have been had I decided to marry and have children. I don’t regret my decisions, but I’m not foolish enough to write a lot of the things that other people in this thread are writing. Who am I to begrudge a Mormon man or woman for their culture or their choices. If freedom and choices in lifestyle are your goal, maybe Mormonism isn’t the best option for you, but if having a happy family and children is important to you, maybe being an urban career woman isn’t the best path to success.

  • But in some Jewish writings about Eve she did NOT reject Satan/Samael/Baal/The Lord but instead copulates with him to conceive the man (Cain) who she is referring to when she tells Adam, “I have got a man from the Lord.” This practice of mortal female copulation with E.T.s is repeated with the Nephillim/Sons of God (which according to the Book of Enoch may make possible the conception of humanities’ first Savior, Noah) and, according to Mormon teaching and “sorta” Christian belief, God himself to conceive the Son of God. Thank Heaven for lose women, but how is a merely mortal man supposed to compete with mystical E.T.s like Satan, the Nephillim and God for any action?

  • Sure. I’m a multimillionaire supermodel who is working on a cure for cancer and owns a home in the South of France. It’s super-easy to make any claim you want on the Internet when you don’t have to provide proof. Do you think the other partners and employees at your law firm would be happy if they knew you were posting sexist, misogynistic things on the Internet? (I’m sure what you’ve posted here is mild compared to what you’ve posted elsewhere). It’s not too hard to figure out people’s real identities from minor details they give about themselves…I would be more careful, if I were you.

  • “It’s easy to make any claim you want on the Internet”

    True, but, statistics do favor Adam. See my other post on this thread, Mormons simply do have bigger families (3.4 children per family by the time they stop being fertile on average), younger families, and studies show happier families. They have less divorce too. I’m not a Mormon, but I can read statistics.

  • “As for the Mormon belief in families being reunited in a spiritual afterlife, why would a loving God limit us to that?”

    Because God doesn’t give out participation trophies ? 😀

    It’s free will, that’s what I was told in response to this basic question. You get life, what you do with it is up to you.

  • Is that the world you live in, this “real world” ? I’m betting you get all your food from a grocery store, work in an office all day, etc, and wouldn’t know a thing about the “real world”. I’m not a Mormon, but at least the LDS church has children, grows food, cans food, stores food, spends time with other human beings every week, has social activities other than the Internet, spends time with their families (they have more children and longer marriages than the rest of the country), etc. What’s your “real world” like ?

  • Why, whatever do you mean? Surely, a good man wouldn’t twist the word o’ God to impelement and maintain Misogynist world views that assuage a personal sense of loss of control and the concomitant fears of weakness in the face of that which he needs but cannot necessarily dominate?

  • “Famales, on the other hand, are a scarce resources and therefore can always find a mate.”

    Uhh, that might have held some truth about 60 years ago before the widespread use of birth control pills, but believe me, that’s not true anymore. Women are a dime a dozen, desperate ones at that. The problem today isn’t that guys can’t find women to marry, it’s that guys don’t want to marry. Ask any 30- or 40-something woman who has never married. Men just aren’t interested anymore, they can have sex whenever they want to now. Whether you realize it or not, all that princess talk is from the Victorian age and hasn’t been true in a long time.

  • Mansplaining is what men do to justify their boorish, self justifying behavior as men.
    Not all men, of course.

  • Mansplaining is not a real word. It has no fixed meaning. Mansplaining is anything said by a man that a woman, or you, don’t like. I probably just mansplained.

  • I’m not familiar with the legends of Eve mating with Satan. Moreover, I wasn’t intending to suggest that Eve rejected sexual advances from Satan, but that she was rejecting him generally. Moreover, under Mormon theology, Eve having a child from Satan would not be possible because he is non-corporeal–a spirit being. Sure, he could possess someone, but who would he possess in the Garden of Eden? I’m somewhat familiar with theories of the Nephilim being descendants of fallen angels and human women, but to the best of my knowledge, it is not an idea accepted among the LDS community. Mormons believe that the reference to “sons of God” refers to men born within the covenant who “married outside the Church” so to speak. However, there is an evangelical writer and preacher, Chuck Missler, who has written and talked quiet a bit about Nephilim. I believe his ministry is called Koinonia House, and he might have material online that would interest you.

  • One thing I’ve see repeatedly mentioned is “a loving God” would not allow something to happen or punish someone; anymore, this seems followed by some comment about God being “inclusive” or “tolerant.” This idea, I believe, arises from confusing “mercy” for “inclusiveness” or “tolerance.” God is merciful in that he allows people to repent, but it is pretty clear from the scriptures (including direct quotes from Christ in the gospels) that God has pretty strict standards for entry into heaven. This is apparent not only from Jesus’ teachings that people must be baptized by both water and fire (i.e., the spirit) to enter into heaven, but even through his various parables where people are banned from entering the building where a banquet or wedding is taking place. As Christ states: “strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life” (Matt. 7:14). Like Maybe says, we are given life and free will, and what we do is us up to us. Just don’t expect that anything and everything you do will necessarily get you invited into heaven.

  • I like your turn of phrase of “God doesn’t give out participation trophies.” Thank you.

  • “I’m sure what you’ve posted here is mild compared to what you’ve posted elsewhere.”

    I did get into a bit of a debate with someone on why the Department of Defense would want to take out patents on its designs. Perhaps that is what you are thinking of.

  • No, a dude called you out.

    I’m a social liberal, push for gay rights, believe in equal rights for women, etc, combined with being a fiscal conservative who thinks the debt has to be managed, so that makes me neither a leftist or a conservative, or both depending on how you look at it.

    But even I think that dudes defending hyphenated last names, men bashing words like “mansplaining”, men bashing meme’s like “male tears” and assorted other female asshattery is just a bunch of white knight cuck B.S. meant to garner female approval by guys who can’t get it any other way. Keep doing it dude, maybe she’ll let you watch her purse while she bangs a man in the club bathroom.

  • “I’m a social liberal, push for gay rights, believe in equal rights for women, etc, combined with being a fiscal conservative who thinks the debt has to be managed, so that makes me neither a leftist or a conservative, or both depending on how you look at it.”

    Why so am I.

    But I still don’t use words like cuck. Funny ,that.

  • “I still don’t use words like cuck.”

    Well, I don’t think I’d ever use the word “adorable” in conversation either, so …. maybe just grow a pair and we can start to share a vocabulary / lexicon.

  • Religious communities, especially fundie ones, have more women than men. That is not the rule of the universe; just the demographics of the community.

  • “cuck” is hate speech. You can justify it or dress it up however you want. But bottom line: You are an MRA, and as such, you hate yourself; you hate women; and you hate men who stand up for women. That’s it and that’s all.

  • HAHAAHA hate speech! That’s FREAKING HYSTERICAL! So now just getting into an argument with someone is hate speech, is it ? LOL, that is everything that is wrong w/ this country today in ONE FREAKING POST. What a FREAKING MORON.

    I swear younger people are so out of touch with the foundations of free speech in this country they don’t even know what they’re talking about anymore. Back in the hippie days radicals at Berkeley fought to win the very freedoms of speech that those crying “hate speech” are destroying right now as we all watch. What a bunch of BS. Hippies and the 60’s radicals are rolling their eyes at you morons. If it weren’t for “hate speech” (which isn’t exactly what the religious right called it, but close …) there wouldn’t have been equal rights for women, civil rights, or anything else, because everyone would be in freaking JAIL because of their thoughts and expression of those thoughts.

    You morons with your “hate speech” ARE THE VERY KIND that radicals fought to overthrow. YOU ARE THE NEW MORAL MAJORITY.

  • Rant rant rant, back in my day, everything is the fault of the liberals, etc. Yawn. You’re a bitter old man who is looking back on your life and realizing you coulda, shoulda, woulda done things differently. You can’t change the past, but you’re still angry, and so you have to take your anger out on someone. Women are a convenient target – your life would have been different if all of those uppity women who wouldn’t date you had lowered their standards. Pro-women men are another one – those men who ended up happy are just “cucks” and weaklings; it couldn’t have been their better choices that landed them in a better place. MRAs employ some of the most amazing mental gymnastics in the world to convince themselves that women are their problem – and not themselves and their own choices. How predictable, and also, how tedious it is to listen to the mental gymnastics get explained over and over in the same way. Again, YAWN.

  • Fairness has nothing to do with it. It’s not fair if I trip over a rock and fall to the ground. It’s not fair if I touch a hot plate and burn myself. Life isn’t fair.

  • How would you have written it differently? That everyone should have been guided and educated by God so that everyone is good, everything is fair, and everyone gets saved?

  • Those are things you do to. Your self, not something the god of the entire universe, the creator of everything, the found of morality, the source of all goodness, and the King of This World is doing to you based upon all of his attributes or morality.

  • Ok. Another example. Is it fair for a cop to ticket someone for running stop sign even if that person didn’t know the stop sign was there? How about if the person running the stop sign was the cause of an accident?

  • You are still avoiding the question of responsibility and moral knowledges. The person running a stip sign knows he has to stop for them. Not seeing it doesn’t make a difference as far as the law is concerned. THe cop MAY decide not to give a ticket– for example, if the stop sign was hidden by bushes and the road was dark at night.

  • Sorry, but I thought you were challenging whether it was fair for someone to suffer consequences of an action generally, but if I’m understanding your question, you are asking whether it is moral for God to punish or reprimand Adam and Eve for eating the forbidden fruit when they did not know good and evil. The short answer is yes. The eating of the forbidden fruit was malum prohibita, not malum in se. Thus, violation of the law such as to expose them to punishment did not require that they discern good versus evil, but that they violated an express prohibition. The biblical account is quite clear that they had been instructed to not eat the fruit, but they nevertheless violated the prohibition. Just like someone getting a ticket for speeding, even if it was the middle of the night and no one could get hurt. It was the speeding that warrants the punishment, not whether anyone could be harmed or put at a risk of harm.

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