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After School Satan? Church-state group plays devil’s advocate in public schools

Mike Ryberg, an atheist who identifies with the Satanic Temple's philosophical approach, drove two hours from Columbia, Mo., to see Lucien Greaves speak in Kansas City, Mo., on Sept. 30, 2016. RNS photo by Sally Morrow
Lucien Greaves, spokesperson and co-founder of the Satanic Temple, speaks about religious freedom and the After School Satan Club on September 30, 2016 in Kansas City, Mo. RNS photo by Sally Morrow

Lucien Greaves, spokesperson and co-founder of the Satanic Temple, speaks about religious freedom and the After School Satan Club on Sept. 30, 2016, in Kansas City, Mo. RNS photo by Sally Morrow

KANSAS CITY, Mo. (RNS) Lucien Greaves is the Good News Club’s worst nightmare.

Greaves is co-founder of the Satanic Temple, a group dedicated to church-state separation. And his organization’s latest campaign in launching after-school clubs for children, Greaves told RNS before a recent talk in Kansas City, is not so much about indoctrinating children into Satanism — he doesn’t actually believe in the devil as a real being, much less one to be worshipped.

Rather, the After School Satan clubs, as they are called, are about making a statement against the government providing facilities exclusively for Christian after-school programs such as the Good News Club.

A side benefit is that the publicity surrounding the After School Satan clubs is likely to bring far more attention — and maybe public understanding — to the Satanic Temple than anything else the group could do.

Good News Clubs, which are sponsored by the Missouri-based Child Evangelism Fellowship, are a popular Christian after-school club, and in the past decade they have become increasingly common in schools across the U.S. During club time, children are taught Bible lessons, sing songs, play games and hear missions stories.

After a 2001 Supreme Court ruling that allowed conservative Christian clubs to organize in grade schools, the number of Good News Clubs — named after the “good news” of the Gospel — spiked to more than 3,500, and they are present in more than 5 percent of the nation’s public elementary schools.

That growth both irked Greaves and provided a blueprint for the Satanic Temple, which is seeking to establish After School Satan clubs in cities such as Washington, D.C., and Los Angeles.

Not surprisingly, the effort has run into resistance from some local school officials, Greaves said, and opposition in Tucson, Ariz., is so stiff that it could eventually lead to legal action.

But organizers have also had some success, and the first club is set to start this month, on Wednesday (Oct. 19) in Portland, Ore.

“Any school can reasonably reject certain subject matter,” said Greaves, 40. “What they can’t do is allow some religious after-school clubs and reject others. Then you are actually dealing in viewpoint discrimination.”


RELATED: Florida city council may halt opening prayers to stop Satanist’s invocation


The After School Satan website says its club will include lessons on science and reason, with a “focus on free inquiry and rationalism,” and will also have fun activities.

If the appearance of these clubs might prompt concern from some, religious liberty advocates whose legal efforts made way for the Good News Clubs know they can’t stand in the way.

“I would definitely oppose after­-school Satanic clubs, but they have a First Amendment right to meet,” Mat Staver, head of the Liberty Counsel, told The Washington Post in July.

“I suspect, in this particular case, I can’t imagine there’s going to be a lot of students participating in this. It’s probably dust they’re kicking up and is likely to fade away in the near future for lack of interest.”

But conservative believers aren’t the only ones who might look askance at the Satanic Temple and its after-school clubs.

Greaves’ host for this talk was the Kansas City Atheist Coalition, and atheists aren’t necessarily keen on the idea of something that seems to promote any religion — be it satanic or Christian.

About 80 people gathered to hear Lucien Greaves, spokesperson and co-founder of the Satanic Temple, speak about religious freedom on September 30, 2016 in Kansas City, Mo. The event was hosted by the Kansas City Atheist Coalition. RNS photo by Sally Morrow

About 80 people gathered to hear Lucien Greaves, spokesperson and co-founder of the Satanic Temple, speak about religious freedom on Sept. 30, 2016, in Kansas City, Mo. The event was hosted by the Kansas City Atheist Coalition. RNS photo by Sally Morrow

Introducing Greaves to about 80 people gathered for the event, atheist coalition president Joshua Hyde sought to put that issue to rest quickly, saying he first wanted to address “the elephant in the room.”

Since announcing the event, Hyde said, he had received several inquiries questioning the relationship between the two organizations.

“Our mission is to cultivate a positive secular community and to work with organizations toward a common goal,” he explained.

Although the groups have fundamental differences, he added, “they share a common goal: the nonpreferential treatment of citizens by our government regardless of what they do or do not believe.”

There certainly appeared to be some crossover between the two groups.

Several people in the crowd wore T-shirts and buttons printed with the Satanic Temple logo, even if there was some lingering unease over identifying as a Satanist.

Mike Ryberg, an atheist who identifies with the Satanic Temple's philosophical approach, drove two hours from Columbia, Mo., to see Lucien Greaves speak in Kansas City, Mo., on September 30, 2016. RNS photo by Sally Morrow

Mike Ryberg, an atheist who identifies with the Satanic Temple’s philosophical approach, drove two hours from Columbia, Mo., to see Lucien Greaves speak in Kansas City, Mo., on Sept. 30, 2016. RNS photo by Sally Morrow

“I’m atheist, but I identify with TST’s philosophical approach,” said Mike Ryberg, who joined the Satanic Temple in 2014 and drove two hours from Columbia, Mo., to attend the event.

Adam, a Kansas City native who preferred not to use his last name, called himself an “admirer” of the Satanic Temple.

“They’re not Satanists, they’re atheists. I’m not a Satanist, I’m an atheist. It’s a ploy to bedevil Christians and it invariably works,” he said.

Free bottons that read "Godless Government," are offered during a gathering with the Kansas City Atheist Coalition and the Satanic Temple to discuss religious freedom on September 30, 2016 in Kansas City, Mo. RNS photo by Sally Morrow

Free buttons that read “Godless Government” are offered during a gathering with the Kansas City Atheist Coalition and the Satanic Temple to discuss religious freedom on Sept. 30, 2016, in Kansas City, Mo. RNS photo by Sally Morrow

This is how Greaves explained it: “People miss that the self-identified Satanist isn’t merely doing this for the shock value that it provokes among Christians – it very much is a personal statement, a personal declaration of independence against those things they feel oppressed by.”

The invention of Lucien Greaves

Born Doug Mesner to a Protestant mother and Catholic father, Greaves grew up in Detroit and was raised in both Christian traditions. The few times he visited a Catholic Church, he said, he found it “horrifying.”

Greaves didn’t much like Protestant teaching, either, and still recalls the message of a Sunday school song called “Careful Little Eyes.” He describes the song as a warning that we are “being looked upon and judged by [an] ultimate tyrant in the sky.”

The lyrics advise kids to be careful what they see, hear, do with their hands, do with their feet, and what they say, for “There’s a Father up above/And He’s looking down in love.”

Then, during his youth, Greaves grew outraged by the cultural phenomenon known as “the Satanic Panic” of the 1980s and 1990s.

Lucien Greaves, spokesperson and co-founder of the Satanic Temple, finds a caterpiller in the backyard of a friend's home in Lenexa, Kan., on September 30, 2016. RNS photo by Sally Morrow

Lucien Greaves, spokesperson and co-founder of the Satanic Temple, finds a caterpillar in the backyard of a friend’s home in Lenexa, Kan., on Sept. 30, 2016. RNS photo by Sally Morrow

That wave of moral panic grew out of a widespread fear, especially among conservative believers, “that satanic forces were taking over the country,” he said.

Movies such as “The Exorcist” and “Rosemary’s Baby,” as well as heavy metal music, were often blamed for fueling the Satanic Panic.

For Greaves, the combination of his rejection of his religious upbringing and what he saw as the damage wrought on people’s lives by the hysteria over Satanism spurred him to co-found the Satanic Temple four years ago in Salem, Mass., where he lives — aptly enough, the city that is infamous for the 17th-century witch trials.

At the same time, he needed to start a Facebook page for the Satanic Temple under a personal name, and so Doug Mesner became Lucien Greaves — at least in the public sphere.

What do Satanists believe anyway?

Lucien Greaves, spokesperson and co-founder of the Satanic Temple, speaks about religious freedom on September 30, 2016 in Kansas City, Mo. RNS photo by Sally Morrow

Lucien Greaves, spokesperson and co-founder of the Satanic Temple, speaks about religious freedom on Sept. 30, 2016, in Kansas City, Mo. RNS photo by Sally Morrow

But if Lucien Greaves is an invented name — he is vague about exactly why he chose it — is Satanism a made-up religion?

Some people think that Satanists are just atheists who want attention, so they label themselves in a shocking way. Others are just plain scared of them.

“We are an atheistic religion,” Greaves explained. “Our subculture is not dependent on a belief in a literal Satan.”

Greaves admits that some people think the Satanic Temple is merely a prank and that its activism is simply meant to shock the general population.

But there is a coherence to Satanism, according to Greaves, as a tradition that grew out of literature and poetry and as “an amalgamation of many other religious beliefs.”

“We believe strongly in religious plurality. Our point hasn’t been to keep any one religion out of the public forum. But when you do set up a public forum, you have to realize that you’ve opened it up to all points of view.

“Once you have this utopian notion that if everybody conforms to your specific religious beliefs, that the world would be a better place – that’s when ugly things start happening,” he added.

Mike Ryberg, an atheist who identifies with the Satanic Temple's philosophical approach, drove two hours from Columbia, Mo., to see Lucien Greaves speak in Kansas City, Mo., on September 30, 2016. RNS photo by Sally Morrow

Mike Ryberg, an atheist who identifies with the Satanic Temple’s philosophical approach, wears buttons from the the group, on Sept. 30, 2016. RNS photo by Sally Morrow

So why choose Satan as a symbol?

Of course, by choosing to use Satan as their namesake and in visual representations of themselves, members of the Satanic Temple open themselves up to some sharp criticism.

Greaves expects to be misunderstood, but his mission is to convince people that self-identified Satanists are solid members of the community.

“If people can see that Satanists aren’t immoral or criminal or cruel, we have forced them to judge others based on real-world actions rather than maintain some obscure out-group standard by which unjustified purges have always taken place,” he said.

But more than just surviving as a misunderstood minority, the Satanic Temple does see a chance for serious growth. Greaves estimates the group’s current membership to be around 50,000, with chapters nationwide, and soon to add more chapters overseas.

For one thing, the number of religiously unaffiliated Americans, the so-called nones, continues to grow. And the current presidential campaign, and the uses and misuses of religion it has brought, might draw more converts to Greaves’ cause.

But serious as the church-state issues are, the Satanic Temple also wants to have a little fun.

Barbara Williams, from Basehor, Kan., poses for a photo with Lucien Greaves, the spokesperson and co-founder of the Satanic Temple, in Kansas City, Mo., on September 30, 2016. RNS photo by Sally Morrow

Barbara Williams, from Basehor, Kan., poses for a photo with Lucien Greaves, the spokesperson and co-founder of the Satanic Temple, in Kansas City, Mo., on Sept. 30, 2016. RNS photo by Sally Morrow

“I don’t want us to be an organization that feels this criticism profoundly enough that perhaps we’re not legitimized as a religion because we’re not solemn and sober enough – that we feel we have to take the fun or the humor out of any of the activities we do,” Greaves said.

“Naturally, people who identify with Satanism usually have a more Gothic aesthetic or darker humor,” he continued. “But I also wouldn’t want us to shy away from the prettier things.”

As for the election, Greaves didn’t take sides — Satanists, like atheists, come in all political stripes, and many are attracted to a libertarian creed.

But he admitted his fear of today’s Republican Party.

“More and more, this tawdry marriage of the GOP to far-right Christian evangelicalism is alienating a lot of libertarian conservatives who are less hypocritical about their adherence to constitutional values,” he says.

About the author

Sally Morrow

Sally Morrow joined Religion News Service in March 2012 as Photo/Multimedia Editor. She is a photographer and editor based in Kansas City. Morrow has worked as a multimedia editor and photographer at Newsday, The Des Moines Register, and the South Florida Sun-Sentinel.

169 Comments

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  • I love it! The Satan church is just as legitimate as any other religion – the First Ammendment says the government can make no laws respecting the establishment of a church. They have the same rights as christians. To object would show their (christians) hypocrisy and lack of respect for our constitution.

  • “…is Satanism a made-up religion?”

    Newsflash, Sister Morrow: Somebody made up EVERY religion…

  • As an old school punk, I love the Punk ethos behind the Satanic Temple. Sometimes people need to be shocked out of their complacency by making them confront the repercussions of imposing religion on government. Hail Satan! 😀

  • “against the government providing facilities exclusively for Christian after-school programs like the Good News Club.”

    If that’s the case it’d be one thing, but I don’t think this is the case across the board. I know my State college provided facility space for many different religious independent after-school programs.

  • Well, lets give credit to RNS for finally exploring the TST, instead of the usual dreary conflicts in and between the other obviously made-up religions — Christianity, Islam, Mormons, etc…

  • Kansas City is home to multiple cults, some big and some small. This new bunch is apparently so small and unpopular, that they’re forced to beg the KC atheists for THEIR support. That’s pitiful, baby.

    This Satan fellow needs to realize that the after-school Good News Clubs aren’t going to go away, period. If he succeeds in getting an “After School Satan” cult club in KC, he will STILL be outnumbered nationally 3,500 to 2. If he succeeds in moving in, he’ll see that WE ain’t moving out.

    And that 3,500, by the way, is NOT counting the after-school Christian clubs that derive from other churches and para-church ministries. So the number is actually higher.

    It’s also not counting the fact that all the Christian after-school clubs are compellingly offering a real and powerful Person who can truly help out a teenager — Jesus Christ himself — while this Satanist guy doesn’t even believe in the existence of his own advertised Satan. So by his own admission, Greaves offers NOTHING, not even a halfway-functional Devil, to spiritually hungry teenagers and school-kids.

    Kids seek bread to eat, the Satanic Temple offers rocks to eat. Therefore don’t look for a successful franchise on this one, folks.

  • And if they did, they have as much right to worship as they please as you do. One’s right to free exercise of religion is not premised on the religion being popular or well liked by others.

    But if you think they have no place in a school, neither would the Good News Clubs.

  • A breath of fresh air! “The After School Satan website says its club will include lessons on science and reason, with a “focus on free inquiry and rationalism,” and will also have fun activities.” Science and reason. Two things guaranteed to strike terror in a zealot’s heart. It never fails. And free inquiry? Oh no! Can’t have children asking pointed questions about things when we’re trying to indoctrinate them! I wish them every success, and am already a supporting donor.

  • That was hilarious, thank you. Halloween is coming up. How you must be dreading it! So scary! Yikes! BOO!

  • “To object would show their (christians) hypocrisy and lack of respect for our constitution.” Like that’s ever stopped them before.

  • Oh, I see. Truth = An unintentionally hilarious blog by some guy named “Jimmy”. (Say, is it you?) Because sound, reliable information can always be found in breathless, unsourced blogs by unknown authors. Sounds totally legit!

  • Jesus Christ himself, eh? Never did see this guy even though apparently he attends all kinds of events. Though I did have a guitar named Jesus once… I fingered it everyday.

    That, however, was real.

  • It’s amazing just how compliant you liberals are when evil makes promises it has no intention to keep. Science and “reason” is just a deception satan uses to deceive the compliant.

  • And here you are “Croquet_Player” selling lies and deception. Next you’ll be telling us your father satan is a good and truthful…..oh wait you’re his witness expressing your unfounded OPINION.

  • It funny when those continue the fallacy freedom of religion impliesr pagan anti-Christian religions. You do realize that the freedom of religion in our Constitution only includes different sects of the Christian faith? If not tell me which God you state Constitution mentions?

    By a unanimous decision, the Supreme Court of the United States, in Holy Trinity Church v. U.S., 143 U.S. 457 (1892) declared in the Opinion written for the Court by Mr. Justice Brewer, that “These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.”

    “”Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.”
    John Jay to Jedidiah Morse February 28, 1797

    According the United States Supreme Court in Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States (1893), the United States is a Christian nation.

    “The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity…” (John Adams).

    “It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ.” (Patrick Henry).

    “Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation, to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” (John Jay)

    “Principally and first of all, I give and recommend my soul into the hands of God that gave it; and my body I recommend to the earth…nothing doubting but at the general resurrection I shall receive the same again by the mercy and power of God” (John Hancock)

    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. – John Adams October 11, 17

    1.) Concerning the Declaration of Independence:

    “The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.” – John Adams

    The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God. – John Adams

    “We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.”– James Madison

    Concerning the Constitutional three branches “interpretation”:

    1.) The legislative branch:

    “LORD, OUR HEAVENLY FATHER, high and mighty King of Kings, and Lord of Lords, who dost from Thy throne behold all the dwellers on earth, and reignest with power supreme and uncontrolled over all the kingdoms, empires and governments; look down in mercy we beseech Thee, on these American States, who have fled to Thee from the rod of the oppressor, and thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection, desiring henceforth to be dependent only on Thee; to Thee they have appealed for the righteousness of their cause; to Thee do they now look up for that countenance and support which Thou alone canst give; take them, therefore, Heavenly Father, under Thy nurturing care; give them wisdom in council and valor in the field; defeat the malicious design of our cruel adversaries; convince them of the unrighteousness of their cause; and if they persist in their sanguinary purpose, O let the voice of Thy own unerring justice, sounding in their hearts, constrain them to drop the weapons of war from their unnerved hands in the day of battle!Be Thou present, O God of wisdom, and direct the counsels of this honorable assembly; enable them to settle things on the best and surest foundation, that the scene of blood may be speedily closed, that order, harmony and peace may be effectually restored, and truth and justice, religion and piety prevail and flourish among Thy people. Preserve the health of their bodies and vigor of their minds; shower down on them, and the millions they here represent, such temporal blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world, and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come. All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, Our Savior. Amen.”– First Prayer in Congress September 7, 1774, Jacob Duche, Carpenters Hall, Philadelphia

    2.) The Executive branch:

    “Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the Lamb and purge my heart by Thy Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of Thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in Thy fear, and dying in Thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy son, Jesus Christ.” _ George Washington, Prayer

    3.)The Judicial branch:

    First Chief-Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court: “Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty – as well as privilege and interest – of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” – John Jay

    4.) considering the “father” of the constitution has a opposite “opinion” than that of fools (see

  • Tis better to remain silent on a subject about which you know nothing and let people wonder if you are foolish than it is to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”
    Thanks for removing the doubt about yourself.

  • Thank you for providing a perfect example of what I described. Nothing like science and reason to send a zealot into a panic.

  • The burden of proof is on you to prove all religions are “made up”. Now I’ll give you that satanism is a made up religion. Genesis 1

  • My Father was a nice business executive from Oklahoma. Satan is a popular myth. If you enjoy believing myths are real, you go right ahead. It certainly provides a lot of drama.

  • “You do realize that the freedom of religion in our Constitution only includes different sects of the Christian faith?”

    Not only absolutely false but demonstratively so. If freedom of religion only applies to Christians they would have said so explicitly in the first amendment and not had the article iv prohibition on religious tests for public office. The idea was floated by during the constitutional convention by theocratic types like yourself and soundly rejected as missing the point.

    “If not tell me which God you state Constitution mentions?”

    None. There is no reference to any god in it at all aside from Anno Dominae for a date. You have clearly never read the constitution and rely on bullshit artists to interpret it for you. (I would venture you treat the Bible with the same level of emphatic ignorance)

    Your quotemine fest is complete and utter nonsense of the type typified by anti democratic depolrables like David Barton and Eric Metaxas. Unless you are quoting the federalist papers, you are not quoting actual legislative intent of the constitution. Plus your founder quotes are probably all fakes you cut and pasted from a dominionist site. Hence lack of web links. It is common enough with people who make such ridiculous claims that your quotes can be ignored put of hand unless you can show actual reliable citation

    Dishonest Dominionists types like you are shameful human beings. Your need to lie and your total disregard for the lives of people outside your faith marks you as a person of low character. No freedom of religion does not exclude the 30-40% of our citizens who do not share your faith. Go eff yourself for even making such a claim. You don’t deserve to call yourself an American. You are lower than dirt.

  • Oh no facts and rational thought make Bill’s head hurt! You should just stop using a device built by science and reason and carry on this conversation by prayer and telepathy.

  • Sacred-texts.com? Really?

    Muslim teachings like Algebra, Arabic numerals, and appreciation of Greco Roman literature and philosophy?

    I guess someone ignorant or dishonest enough to say the first amendment only applies to Christians will also pretend the separation of church and state doesn’t exist.

  • Easy, there is no credible proof of any god nor of religious writings made by one. As you said reason and evidence are not part of your religious belief. You don’t even try to prove nor have to ability to prove the veracity of religion.

  • What? So you’re delusional as well as ignorant and dishonest. Stop using the internet if you oppose science and reason so much, you hypocrite.

  • So here you are making up stupid and unfounded accusations. I don’t fear true and factual science nor factual based reasoning but apparently you’re void of those claims. So please quote where I said anything contrary to science based on fact or reason based on fact? Oh wait it just a propaganda you tell because you’re that stupid to actually have an intelligent conversation. Please get an adult to explain my comment to you because I stated quite plainly the science and reason is just a ploy to get those like you that are compliant on the hook for there agenda.

  • “Science and “reason” is just a deception satan uses to deceive the compliant.”

    There, done. Now go STHU

  • Yes I did say that but then again it was way over your head apparently. Please read the rest of what I posted and think on it and maybe the light will go on. on what I was getting at….reading is fundamental.

  • “Their”. You’re welcome. Yes, yes, science and reason are just “ploys” to trick people. Be careful, I think Bigfoot is hiding in your closet.

  • Yes I agree you are that stupid to repeat known propaganda. Did you bother to look at your state Constitution to see the Christian God is mentioned there? Yes I’m just point out proof to your propaganda. But if you choose to remain ignorant that’s on you.

  • Yes did say that. Now you are equivocating, denying and backtracking like the lying monkey you are.

    When have you stopped being so dishonest?

  • Foolish opinions don’t count but thanks for being your obtuse self. So what is you proof that all religions are made up? I’m still waiting for facts?

  • It’s not in there for my state. Plus all State established churches were banned shortly after ratification of the constitution. The problem you have is a reliance on half baked implication rather than a coherent argument.

    At no point in the history of the United States was your premise ever considered a valid interpretation of the first amendment. You are a liar.

    You seem to forget that interpretation of the constitution is not Bible study. We have professionals whose job it is to interpret it and apply it. I see you never bothered to support your claim by a SCOTUS decision saying so. Even you know you were saying blatant fictions. Hence the quotemining.

    You really should stop calling yourself an American. You betray it’s very principles with your lies.

  • You made the comment saying just that below. You can’t even stay consistent with your own arguments. Pathetic.

    “You do realize that the freedom of religion in our Constitution only includes different sects of the Christian faith? ”

    Your words. Can you ever stop lying?

  • I already beat you up on your pseudo science and “rational” thinking and here you are being the fool again. I gave you the definition of science and empirical evidence and apparently I know much more about science than you satanists.

  • I don’t need to back track because your inability to comprehend the meaning of what I posted. As for being dishonest that is you forte and you got that down pat.

  • I am being so unfair to you by quoting you in context and using it to show you are dishonest. /sarcasm

  • No, the burden of proof is on those who claim things are real. Satan, Thor, the Loch Ness monster, etc. etc. The default position is that these are all popular myths, because there is no credible evidence to suggest otherwise.

  • I see that satanism training is really doing well for you eh? You know taking what I said out of context after being told you did and then you proceed to tell me what I actually meant.

  • Wow, delusional and dishonest. What a combination.

    You think science and mythology are one in the same on a creationism topic. You already demonstrated how ignorant you are of both.

    You already said how you don’t trust science and reason Your words. Now stop being a hypocrite and continue the conversation by telepathy.

  • I been consistent proving you a liar and deceiver on a regular basis why is this any different?

  • Oh now you think idle threats will make you the bigger person……Bwahahahahahaha. I’m always here to educate you with facts despite your foolish propaganda. obama indeed is a joke just like you.

  • Not after ratification. They were disestablished. Plus it doesn’t support your argument. Since we are talking about the national constitution. Nor does it support your dishonest premise. You rely on implication which is non historical. When have you stopped lying?

  • The problem here is YOU made the claim so if you were the least bit honest you’re admit that. So as you can see the burden of proof is on those that make claims YOU obviously CAN”T back up.

  • Yeah keep spewing your nonsense because it’s all you have left. Yeah I already debunked your mythology and here you are still making stupid comments and embarrassing yourself. So instead of me wasting my precious time letting you make a complete and utter fool of yourself I’ll just let you continue doing what you do best talk nonsense and express unfounded opinion,

  • You’re a shameless liar even after I posted facts that prove your lie. Did you even bother to educate yourself on the facts at the link I posted….obviously not eh?

  • Here you go: Satan, Thor, the Loch Ness monster, and so on, meet all the criteria for mythical fictional creations, and may be accurately described as such. Myth: “a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history
    of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and
    typically involving supernatural beings or events.” The burden of proof rests on those who wish to go beyond that description and claim that these things are actually real. Until such proof is presented, “myth” is an accurate and useful description.

  • Which is why I put my children in private school so as to learn unrevised history and the true meaning/purpose of the Constitution.. Perhaps you should pick another field that is not been Politically Corrected.

  • No, the only liar here is you. Your whole premise is so beyond what any sane understanding is of the subject it begs the question: Are you really so ignorant or do you just think everyone else is?

    At no point was the 1st Amendment only meant to apply to Christians. You have nothing which even comes close to supporting such a premise. You even resort to the most common tool of liars: quotemining. Your remarks were not only ignorant, dishonest and boneheaded, it was Un-American and seditious. You advocate a dictatorship of Christianity. Theocratic bull. I can’t even pretend you are intelligent or honest enough to carry on a conversation on the subject. I won’t even try. You have shown such a blatant disregard for basic facts that it is pointless to continue doing so wit you.

    “At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul. “

  • I’m sorry, you are far too ignorant or dishonest to pretend a conversation with you is worth the effort.

  • Again expressing your opinion void of evidence as I already gave only embarrasses your farther. But here let me post this dialogue I created several years ago. attempting to have a honest conversation with those like you. And thank you for confirming it once again.

    Lib/sodomite/atheist defenses when they make a false claim
    1. Call people names and/or cursing at them.
    2. Resort to spelling and grammar attacks
    3. Mock the other person
    4. Make mindless (one line) comments
    5. Give an opinion void of facts
    6. Twisting words that were said into something that wasn’t said
    7. New lib tactic trolling
    8. Marginalize the opposition, but never debate the issue at hand.
    9. New lib/homo term to show their disgust for Christians “Taliban”, KKK, Hitler, nazi’s,haters, bigots.
    10. All the above

    So far you fit the following 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 I’m sure eventually you’ll worthy of #10.

  • What exactly is “unrevised history”? Do you mean the sort of history that involved covering up the genocide that Christopher Columbus and his cronies committed on Hispaniola?

  • You’d first have to know what honesty and integrity was….you don’t so I guess you can take your ball and go home eh?

  • Is Satan found in “traditional stories”? Yes. Is Satan described as a “supernatural being”? Yes. Is Satan used to explain “some natural or social phenomenon”? Yes. Those are not matters of my opinion, they are very well-documented in all the literature about Satan. Therefore, Satan clearly may be accurately described as a myth. Whether he can be described as anything beyond that, i.e., “real”, is up to those who claim he is. If you can’t grasp that simple fact, I really can’t help you, and you need to visit your local community college and take some classes. Good luck!

  • “Lib/sodomite/atheist….Call people names and/or cursing at them.”

    Irony is something completely beyond your comprehension.

  • Let me familiarize you with atheist God hating history that has murdered far more people than anybody else in history in just the last few century’s

    First lets quote some numbers from Atheists genocides just in the 20th century alone. Over 180 million deaths/murders has occurred from Atheist Dictatorships/Rulers/Regimes, etc. From Stalin, Mau Tse Tung, Hilter, Pol Pot, Hideki Toji, Leopold II of Belgium, Kim IlSung, Meghistu and the list goes on and on. And please, before you give me the “Hilter claimed he was a Christian” garbage you atheists like to quote so often, even secular Historians agree on the main points concerning that Hitler’s religious views were nothing more than a political move to advance his way into power in a country where the dominant religion was Lutheran. Once in power, he burned the Bibles in the Churches along with the schools and replaced them with Mein Kampf, along with sending the churches leaders into death camps along with the Jews. Christians today would call him a Anti-Christ (lead by Satan) as his actions were not Biblically based in any sense of scripture. Unfortunately Christians are not marked by God when we are born again other than what fruits we bear once transformed and continued during the sanctification process. However, the Bible is full of advice on discernment of showing how to distinguish False Prophets, False Leaders, False Teachers and those of the Anti Christ i.e. False Christians such as Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama or any other so called professing Christian whose lifestyle and actions are contrary to God’s Word and teachings. I have no problem whatsoever calling someone a Non-Christian, no matter what political party, church they attend, etc. if I hold them up to Gods word.
    Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/obama-attends-easter-service-pastor-accuses-conservative-christians-of-racism-in-sermon-92986/#GDvo8ULQjJJiG3uF.99

    The demise of the mother of atheism.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/features/atheists081699.htm

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Homosexuals_and_the_Third_Reich.html

    http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/ernst_rohm.htm

    Hitler murdered Christians
    On Apirl 7, 1933 Hitler make it absolutely clear that there would be “no place in the German utopia for the Christian Church”. He said, “nothing will prevent me from eradicating totally, root and branch, all Christianity in Germany…A German Church, a German Christianity is all rubbish….one is either Christian or German.

    Further, Hitler was a staunch Darwinist. Oxford University historian Alan Bullock wrote that Hitler “showed the sharpest of hostility toward Christianity because in Hitler’s eyes, Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves, he detested its ethics in particular. Its teachings, Hitler declared was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle and the survival of the fittest.”

    You might be interested to know that the Nazi’s exterminated over 700,000 handicapped people using arguments from the California State legislature recorded in the 1920’s surrounding the eugenics debate which was thankfully defeated in the US. Many in CA tried to argue for it but failed. Hitler did not. Hitler corrupted the church.

    The Nuremberg trials of leading Nazis conclusively proved that they attempted genocide against the Jews, resulting in the Holocaust, in which some six million Jews were killed. But one senior member of the US prosecution team, General William Donovan, compiled a huge amount of documentation that the Nazis also planned to systematically destroy Christianity.

    Donovan’s documents—almost 150 bound volumes—were stored at Cornell University after his death in 1959, and are now being posted online at the Rutgers Journal of Law and Religion. This ‘criminal conspiracy’ involved the very top Nazis, including Adolf Hitler and propaganda chief Joseph Goebbels, as well as Hitler Youth leader and Nuremberg defendant Baldur von Schirach.

    These documents show that the Nazis, right from the beginning, realized that the church would have to be neutralized because of its opposition to racism and aggressive wars of conquest. So they planned to infiltrate the churches from within; defame, arrest, assault or kill pastors; reindoctrinate the congregations; and suppress denominational schools and youth organizations.

    Bible-believing, evangelical churches were in the forefront of opposition, as opposed to compromising churches. Without a firm belief in the inerrancy of the Bible, liberal churches were more readily inclined to ‘reinterpret’ Christianity to suit the ruling pro-evolution ideology, which is similar to what happens with Darwinistic ‘science’ today.”

    Nazis planned to exterminate Christianity by Jonathan Sarfati

    http://www.leics.gov.uk/the_nazi_master_plan.pdf

  • Your own post already fits 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. So you’re not far off all 10 either. The other two can’t be used by you: 2 because it seems you can’t possibly be better at spelling than any reasonably educated person, and 9 because you’re not a “lib/homo” (although I’m beginning to wonder about your sexuality, since you do seem obsessed with homosexuality).

  • The difference the names I call you are accurate and true and not said out of anger of frustration as you are guilty of.

  • BTW I see you called on your satanic buddies for support. Well you can lick your wounds together eh?

  • Is that liberal logic….thanks I needed a good hardy laugh. But alas if that’s your reasoning you need a lot of help to discern between your opinion and factual evidence. Obviously you think your opinion is factual in some way however you lack scientific proof STILL.

  • “Scientific proof” that something is a myth? Seriously? Myth is simply a term we use to describe a particular type of literary story, character, or creature. There is no “scientific proof” of myths, Bill, and it’s rather alarming you think there is. You are deeply confused. Something either meets the general definition of the term or it doesn’t. You desperately need to go take some classes at your local junior college. You are profoundly ignorant, and clearly unaware of it. Frankly I’m embarrassed for you. Please go learn something. You can start with the difference between “hardy” and “hearty”, you poor thing. Good luck to you.

  • See you’re that stupid to claim something is a myth with absolutely no evidence. So here again the burden of proof is on you to give evidence on your unfounded OPINION. You making unfounded claims doesn’t mean I lack education because I never make comments I can’t back up however you did.

  • I’ll make this easy for you prove Caesar was a real person other than was was written about him? Is there a actual witness that he existed? I’ll give you a hint is he observable?

  • So then you can’t back up your unfounded claim. I knew that all along you wouldn’t have the honestly or integrity that you couldn’t prove a negative and admit you were wrong for making such a claim. You see I didn’t go to the same kind of school you attended but can admit when I made a mistake instead of getting into a endless argument to save face as you and spuggie do.

  • I (yes, it’s me) didn’t include the sources to the sites I referenced because my intention was not to provide an instruction manual on the occult, but I did actually look at real new age, occult websites, and of course Christian ones.
    Glad it made you laugh, hopefully it made you think too 🙂

  • Dear World: Please meet Bill, a fellow who, in all seriousness, demands “scientific proof” for descriptive literary terms. And then, when the error is pointed out to him, claims “dishonesty” on the part of the person trying to help him out. No, I am not making this up. There it is, in black and white. Read it. This is what happens when education fails. This is a tragedy. Don’t let this happen to your children.

    Bill, you are truly a sad case, and I feel so very sorry for you. As I said, please go back to school. It’s the only thing that will help you.

  • Come on now put on your big boy pants and grow up because your embarrassing yourself whining incessantly like a little girl.

  • Trying to insult people on the internet using hackneyed cliches might make you briefly feel better, but it won’t advance your education one bit. For what it’s worth, I don’t think you’re stupid, I think your education has (obviously) been woefully, shamefully inadequate. You can spend the rest of your life demonstrating your educational shortcomings by making embarrassingly ignorant comments to strangers on the internet, and then making inane insults when you don’t have anything of substance to add, or you can knuckle down and go back to school. I hope you choose school. Good luck.

  • While the websites for various belief systems are certainly real, it sure doesn’t mean anything they’re claiming on their sites has any basis in reality. It did make me think. It made me think you take websites promoting all kinds of ridiculous nonsense (New Age? Really?) far too seriously.

  • But you’re using those interpretations of symbolism as evidence to claim the Satanic Temple actually “worship[s] the devil”. It’s like using Spiderman to prove Superman. None of it holds up. It’s preposterous.

  • Yes. He wrote his own accounts of his experiences in Gaul which are still in print today. Witnesses to his existence included critics and supporters alike who wrote extensively on a host of subjects. Very famous people in their own right whose writings survive to today. including his own adopted son/nephew also known as the future Augustus Caesar.

    Julius Caesar’s existence was documented more than most people of Rome, coming from one of its wealthiest families. His birth, his marriages, his daughter’s birth, her marriage, his adoption of Octavian, are all documented.

    You are a real ignoramus.

  • You are quite right about the fake founder quotes. The James Madison quote saying our future is staked on the 10 Commandments was not from Madison. The curators of the James Madison Papers at the University of Virginia were asked if they could verify the quote. They replied that they could not.

    Wrote Curators John Stagg and David Mattern, “We did not find anything in our files remotely like the sentiment expressed in the extract you sent us. In addition, the idea is inconsistent with everything we know about Madison’s views on religion and government, views which he expressed time and time again in public and in private.”

    Madison was adamantly opposed to mixing religion and government, so that fake quote about the 10 Commandments is particularly repulsive and shows the complete lack of integrity on the part of Christian nationalists.

  • No more of a joke than Christianity, LDS, Islam, others…water-to-wine party trick, zombie rising from dead after 3-days, rides to heaven on winged horses, seer stones in the hat, lots of funny and dirty sex laughs, virgin birth LOL…

    Fair to say Bible, Koran, Book of Mormon are basic joke books !!

  • “…that they’re forced to beg the KC atheists for THEIR support…”

    I think if you look into it more, you would find that it was rather the other way around: the atheist group invited him as a guest speaker, as a celebrity with some current events to talk about that were of interest to them.

    “…So by his own admission, Greaves offers NOTHING…”

    No. “The After School Satan website says its club will include lessons on science and reason, with a “focus on free inquiry and rationalism,” and will also have fun activities.

    Why do you deliberately misstate the facts? Doesn’t the truth mean *anything* to you?

  • Read the Seven Tenets of the Satanic Temple. These are far more moral than anything in the Bible. For example, where does the Bible require that the freedoms of others must be respected or that one’s body is inviolable and is to be free from assaults of others.

    The 10 Commandments lists wives as property like cattle.

    “One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason.”

    “The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.”

    “One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.”

    “The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo your own.”

    “Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs.”

    “People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and resolve any harm that may have been caused.”

    “Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.”

  • Again reading is fundamental,,,,,,,

    I’ll make this easy for you prove Caesar was a real person OTHER THAN WHAT WAS WRITTEN ABOUT HIM. IS THERE AN ACTUAL WITNESS THAT HE EXISTED?
    I’ll give you a hint is he observable?

    So the point you ignored and it’s no SURPRISE NOTHING you posted is OBSERVABLE.

  • How does one insult an addlepate such as you and your foolish reasoning?

    So when do you think you’ll get out of the sixth grade? Because when you do you see the world a whole different way and there are many people much more intelligent than yourself. You see all I have done so far is present actual facts whereas all you have left is personal attacks typical for liberals that can’t deal with actual facts and evidences.

  • So when are you going to prove that satan is a myth?

    Or when will you be honest enough that you can’t prove your claim either way?

  • Oh, the irony is palpable. Apparently, Satan has deceived you into utilizing your hi-tech, scientifically developed computer to reveal what a hypocrite you are. If the Amish had phones, you could call them to see if they needed some more farmhands.

  • How stupid are you?

    We know of stuff written BY him not just of him.Unless you want to make a claim that Caesars book The Gallic Wars was ghost written by someone else, it’s proof he exists.
    He left tangible proof of his existence.

    His birth was witnessed and recorded as a member of one of the most prominent Roman patrician families. It’s recorded. Actual witnesses of his existence are legion (pun intended). Unless you think Cato, Cicero, Gaius Pompey and Marcus Crassus all made him up. Since we didn’t have photography back then we are left with written record after written record. Stuff only a complete ignoramus would just hand wave away.

    It’s like arguing there is no proof George Washington really existed because you can’t talk to an eyewitness today. I can’t even pretend you have an intelligent point to make or could recognize a fact if it bit you.

  • Domininists are notorious for making fake quotes, misquoting or taking people out of context to support their lies. It’s why I never accept founders quotes unless attributed online. David Barton and Eric Metaxas made careers out of making up nonsense about historical figures to service Christian nationalism.

  • Wow you fools crawl out of the woodwork when one of your kind is proven a liar. So are you one of the fools that want to tell me what I meant by what I posted? I find it hilarious that you fool liberals have the gang mentality when one of your own embarrasses themselves making stupid and unintelligent claims they just can’t back up with actual facts. Perhaps if the satanists offered truth, integrity and cookies too that would also draw you fools into their cult?

  • Wow I can’t believe even after I broke it down to your 2nd grade level you still can’t comprehend what I posted? I suggest you get an adult to once again to explain my post to you.

  • No, your point was idiotic. You used a terrible example since Caesar left his own works behind which exist until today. Writing a book in your own hand is as good a sign one exists as one can get for that period of time.

    So you are going to claim Washington Irving may not exist because you can’t find a photo of him? William Shakespeare?

    You probably meant to use Socrates, since the only evidence of existence available today is only in writings by his students and critics. That would have almost been half clever.

    Now begonne foul troll.

  • Did you get an adult to explain my post to you yet because your still ranting about nonsense. BTW thank you for proving that there is records and writing about satan but you still haven’t proven or disproved his existence as of yet? Yes there are “available” writings about satan as well, So again the burden of proof is on you to prove satan existence either way. If you were the least bit honest you’d admit you can’t prove satan’s existence either way. I don’t and never have expected you to be honest as to not put that burden on you too.

  • Matthew 5:43-48
    43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
    44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
    45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
    46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
    47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
    48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    Romans 13:9-10
    For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
    Leviticus 19:18
    Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD.

  • I already clearly demonstrated that Satan meets the all criteria for a myth, and may accurately be described as such. We’ve been over it, several times. The fact that you are unable to grasp the concepts of “myth” or “literary term” is your problem. And it’s certainly a problem. You need remedial help, as you have no idea what the terms mean. Why can’t you be honest enough to admit your failure? It’s one thing to be ignorant, it’s another to have the kind of profound character flaws that prevent you from having an honest discussion, and then try to make up for your educational deficits with insults, in a pathetic effort to conceal your insecurity about your inadequacies and appear confident and assured. I am not insulted. I feel sorry for you. You are genuinely to be to be pitied. Goodbye, sad little person. I hope you get the education you need.

  • Do you have books written BY Satan? Not about him, but in his own hand and recognized as authored by him. No.

    Birth records?
    A known address?
    Known relatives?
    Known children born to him? Known spouse?
    A list of famous people known to have been killed by Satan?

    No. But all exist for Caesar.

    So your analogy fails. I’m done here. You missed the point and used a boneheaded example.

    So yell me again how authoring a book isn’t proof of their existence?

  • So in fact in your opinion you assume satan is a myth therefore satanism is a cult. Thank you for confirming that fact and embarrassing yourself once again. Why did it take you so long to figure this out? Oh wait it’s because you are incapable of having a honest conversation.

  • So in your OPINION those billions of people that have died over time that haven’t written books didn’t exist?

    No Birth records?
    No known address?
    No Known relatives?
    No Known children born to him? Known spouse?
    A list of people known to have been killed by atheists?

    So yell me again how not authoring a book isn’t proof of their existence?

  • Nope. But it’s good to know you still don’t get the point. I have said everything I need to say on this topic.

  • Poor Bill does not know what he is talking about. I have been a certified teacher of history and government.

  • Yeah and I’m a certified rocket scientist. See we can all make silly claims. Oh wait you’re actually attempting to intimidate me with you supposed superiority. Well this is the only thing that comes to mind….Bwahahahahahahahah.

  • I can find just as many verses in the Bible that say the opposite.

    Nowhere does the Bible state plainly that it is wrong to own people or treat them as your property. Nowhere does it forbid rape, except as a property crime where the injured party is a father /husband /owner whose property decreased in value.

  • So you can find verses that say to hate your neighbor? If you can, then have at it.
    The Bible doesn’t explicitly forbid a lot of things, but everything is covered under the general principle, “Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”

  • “Lucien Greaves is the Good News Club’s worst nightmare”

    The list of the writer’s previous work does not include “reporter,” and the omission of *any* quote from a representative of the Good News Club in support of this very first sentence would seem to indicate why.

  • Has it occurred to anyone here that the god Yahweh in the Hebrew Bible does lots of evil things, like sending plagues, killing the first born, sending droughts, sending the nation into exile. Jesus tells people they worship a demon (John 8:44) because Jesus has a better idea of God. Do we continue to blame God for evil as if It was a demon?

  • Quite easily. See Merriam Webster dictionary (online).

    religion
    : the belief in a god or in a group of gods

    : an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods

    ***: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group***

    See that last definition? There you go. Atheism is a religion. (And a rationally unsupportable and unsustainable one. It’s a no-good boo-boo mess.)

  • The Satanists themselves believe that their religion is made up. I.e. it’s either a political tool or a philosophical movement in religious drag.
    Christians believe in their religion.
    There, distinction explained for the dogmatic.

  • You totally won that, they reverted to ad hominems because the historical record was too bad for them to handle.

  • That’s a silly misquote of Jesus; Jesus was condemning those in power that murdered the righteous for their faith.
    Honestly, at least try reading the NT in some sort of normal translation rather than making the Jesus you want (one that you hate).

  • The bible condones slavery and genocide. And I seem to recall Jesus, in response to earlier old testament laws said something about “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” (Matthew 5:18) So please, spare us all your groovy, lovey interpretation.

  • Yeah when facts are introduced to the conversation they proceed with personal attacks because they know there’s no way for them to save face.

  • “Christians believe in their religion.”

    How does that negate the observation that somebody came UP with it…?

  • Your comment implies that the author has said something meaningless when he says its a made up religion. There is an important difference; for the one there’s no chance that it’s true, even its adherents don’t believe in it. For the other, its truth is, and will remain, unprovable and undisprovable.

  • Nice try, Jesus specifically had people spare a woman from stoning in defiance of the Law as it was then understood, so save us your non-standard, not-recognised-in-any-church-anywhere-and-in-defiance-of-any-reasonable-reading-of-the-New-Testament reading.

  • Your “for the one” and “for the other” seem to suggest there are only two religions to choose from. There are several.

    “…for the one there’s no chance that it’s true…”

    How do we demonstrate a zero probability of truth for all the religions you might reject…?

  • Look, you’re trying to get away from a very simple point; you made a silly nitpick on the author’s choice of phrase, “made up religion”; I justified it by pointing out that there is a worthwhile distinction between what the author calls a “made up religion” (one where its adherents believe its false), and a bona fide religion one where its adherents believe its real.
    Distinction spelled out in minute detail for the dogmatic.

  • What you’ve not done, Brother Seanus, is demonstrate that there is a religion that somebody has not “made up”.

    We should be clear on our terms: For a thing to be “made up”, it needn’t matter one wit if anybody believes it…

  • Except almost all of them were cults of personality, of course many of them would want to do away with competition to their power. However, they were not committing atrocities under the banner of atheism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Evangelical_Church
    http://www.historytoday.com/robert-carr/nazism-and-christian-heritage
    http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/09/16/the-german-nazis-were-christia/
    http://creationistidiocy.blogspot.com/2009/03/moron-of-month-jonathan-sarfati.html

  • You can lie to yourself all you want but they were in fact all anti-God just like all atheists which all use situational ethics to justify their actions. Atheists live by relativism and situational ethics which is why you’re inconsistent on just abut everything. The fact is if there wasn’t a God to hate you wouldn’t exist either way. .

  • You have it backwards. The existence of a divinely produced religion is a big claim. The burden is on you to produce equally big, testable evidence to support it. Else, the Null Hypothesis prevails.

  • Bill has resorted to the Straw Man Fallacy: Rather than respond to the argument at hand, he has set up and responded to a caricature of it.

    To wit, I asked for an example of a religion that isn’t made up. Bill responded by challenging me to prove that all religions are made up, that life created itself, and that, once created, it decided to evolve. These are three claims I did not make, and raising them fails to respond to my original challenge.

    If anyone can support with testable, solid evidence the proposition that there exists a non made-up religion, I am truly interested. From here I will respond only to thoughtful and well-reasoned comments.

  • For the other, its truth is, and will remain, unprovable and undisprovable.

    Bullshit. All religions make truth claims that are objectively false.

  • Does that mean not collecting stamps is a hobby? Is bald now a hair color?

    Atheism is a religion. (And a rationally unsupportable and unsustainable one.

    That’s just a stupid assertion made with no argumentation. Anyone with half a brain is free to conclude that you’re an imbecile.

  • your state Constitution….

    Pfffffttttttttttt…. state constitutions aren’t worth the hemp that they’re printed on. All of them are subservient to the actual Constitution.

  • For example: angels exist, jeebus rose from the dead, muhammed ascended into heaven on a flying horse, Xenu, reincarnation, etc. etc. ad infinitum ad nauseum.

  • Ahh, the old “I don’t believe in it and that by itself constitutes proof”.
    Very logical, pats on backs all round.

  • Do you have any evidence that the above outrageous claims are true? No? Then the default position is: THEY NEVER HAPPENED. The burden of proof is on those making the outrageous claims. Since it has never been shown, for example, that dead people come back to life, the rational and logical position is to reject such a just so story. I know reason and logic are foreign concepts to the godbot and that just so stories and anecdotes are all you need to constitute “evidence” but that’s not how reality functions.

    Try again.

  • Right, well if we’re talking proof, are absences provable?

    And, if the answer is yes, would it not be fair for me to say that the idea of an officially atheist government that’s not murderous and evil is ridiculous and proven false? Seeing as there’s been 40 odd in the last 300 years and they’ve all been that way?

    Incidentally, what’s miraculous about Xenu? And how is it more miraculous than, say, panspermia?

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