News

Conservative evangelicals revel in their ‘unprecedented’ presidential access

President Trump, flanked by evangelical leaders Paula White, right, and Jack Graham, in blue suit, speaks during the National Day of Prayer event at the Rose Garden of the White House in Washington, D.C., on May 4, 2017. Photo courtesy of Reuters/Carlos Barria

WASHINGTON (RNS) – Squeezed among two dozen other evangelical supporters of the president, Southern Baptist Richard Land added his hand to the others reaching to pray for President Trump.

Evangelical supporters place hands on and pray with President Trump in the Oval Office of the White House. Photo courtesy of Johnnie Moore

The July 10 Oval Office prayer session, which has been panned and praised, is just one example of the access Trump and his key aides have given to conservative Christian leaders — from an hourslong May dinner in the Blue Room to an all-day meeting earlier this month in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building next door.

“This is unlike anything we’ve experienced in our career or ministry — unprecedented access, unprecedented solicitation of opinions and viewpoints,” said Land, president of Southern Evangelical Seminary in Matthews, N.C.,  and a veteran at the intersection of religion and politics.

But while religious conservatives are getting such intimate contact with the chief executive that they can literally “lay hands” on him, other faith leaders are being kept at arm’s length.


RELATED: Evangelical supporters meet with, pray for Trump


Steven Martin, the communications director for the National Council of Churches, a group that includes mainline Protestant, Orthodox and historically black denominations, declared: “I’d absolutely say we’re frozen out.”

Manjit Singh, entrepreneur, social justice activist and co-founder of the Sikh American Legal Defense and Education Fund. Photo courtesy of Manjit Singh

Manjit Singh, a co-founder of the Sikh American Legal Defense and Education Fund, called interaction with the White House at a “very limited level to practically non-existent.”

Minhaj Hassan, a spokesman for Islamic Relief USA, said: “In the first six months of the Trump presidency, there hasn’t been any direct communication with the White House.”

Randall Balmer, chair of Dartmouth College’s religion department, calls the political shift in the White House “a whole different center of gravity religiously” from the recent past.

In the 1960s, “representatives of the National Council of Churches could pretty much knock on the door almost any time and be granted access and now you just don’t have that any longer,” he said.

Melissa Rogers, who was director of the White House Office of Faith-based and Neighborhood Partnerships under President Obama, said it was “very common” for various offices to hold briefings for a diverse range of U.S. religious communities.

“That certainly included evangelicals, Catholics, mainline Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs and others,” said Rogers, whose former position still hasn’t been filled by the Trump administration.

The Rev. Billy Graham, center, is welcomed to the White House on July 18, 1981, by President Reagan and first lady Nancy Reagan.

In the 1980s, President Reagan welcomed conservative Christian leaders Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell Sr. to the White House. But political scientist Paul Kengor called Reagan “a Protestant with a healthy respect for non-Protestant faiths, especially Catholic and Jewish faiths.” Reagan had relationships with Pope John Paul II, Mother Teresa and Cardinal Terence Cooke and “carried in his jacket a list of Soviet Jews held in prison or denied the right to emigrate.”

Today, some groups outside the fold of conservative Christianity report a limited amount of communication with the 6-month-old Trump administration. They describe connections with Cabinet-level offices, such as Hindus with the Justice Department and Baha’is with the State Department.

Officials of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops “frequently send letters to relevant departments and agencies on vital issues of the day,” said Judy Keane, spokeswoman for the bishops’ conference. Some of those letters differed with the administration on capping the number of refugees and withdrawing from the Paris climate change agreement.

Rabbi Jonah Dov Pesner, director of the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism, said leaders of the Reform movement have met with administration officials and voiced their concerns about issues such as the two-state solution and religious pluralism in Israel.

“Despite profound disagreements on issues including immigrant justice, access to health care, voting rights, and more, members of the administration have heard our concerns with respect,” he said. “Every administration is different, but we have always found a way to make the voices of Reform Judaism heard.”

There have been a few examples of interfaith approaches by the Trump White House, such as when Vice President Mike Pence praised the contributions of Sikhs in a June speech in his home state of Indiana. Days later, he traveled to Colorado to celebrate the 40th anniversary of conservative Christian organization Focus on the Family.

President Trump sings while accompanied by his wife, Melania, and Vice President Mike Pence and his wife, Karen, during a prayer service at Washington National Cathedral the morning after his inauguration, in Washington, D.C., on Jan. 21, 2017. Photo courtesy of Washington National Cathedral/Danielle E. Thomas

And turbans, habits and an array of other religious attire were seen at the National Day of Prayer ceremony and the National Prayer Service at Washington National Cathedral on the day after the inauguration.

But two very different recent administrations — those of Presidents George W. Bush and Obama — have made more particular efforts to be inclusive, especially in relation to government partnerships with faith groups on social services, said Bob Tuttle, professor of religion and government at George Washington University.

So what benefit is there for Trump to emphasize his ties to evangelical leaders? Balmer said they provide Trump with a seal of approval.

“Whenever Billy Graham showed up at the side of any politician, it provided some sense that the politician was on the right track or doing the right thing,” said Balmer.

The Rev. Carlos L. Malave, executive director of Christian Churches Together. Photo courtesy of Carlos L. Malave

Though he doesn’t consider Trump’s evangelical supporters to have equivalent authority as Graham, “nevertheless they do represent that constituency, a constituency that voted for Trump at 81 percent.”

And while it may not be surprising that any president would welcome those with whom he agrees more than others, the Rev. Carlos Malavé, executive director of Christian Churches Together, says Trump risks losing a channel of communication to an important constituency.

“If the President is interested in listening to the wisdom of American Christians in general he should be open to give access to a broader representation of these leaders,” said Malavé, who hasn’t been able to get a meeting for himself and other anti-poverty advocates.


RELATED: Trump touts support from evangelicals, Putin friendship in Robertson interview


Deputy press secretary Sarah Sanders, who defended the recent prayers for the president at the White House, called those who attended the July 10 gathering “his Faith Advisory Board.” She said “they meet from time to time to speak about issues that are important to that community.”

From left, Ronnie Floyd, Rodney Howard-Browne, Adonica Howard-Browne, Johnnie Moore and Paula White stand behind President Trump as he talks with evangelical supporters in the Oval Office at the White House. Photo courtesy of Johnnie Moore

But according to Johnnie Moore, an evangelical author and advocate for persecuted Christians who was at the Oval Office gathering, the only people who attended were evangelicals.

Two days later Trump, referring to the audience of the Christian Broadcasting Network, told CBN founder Pat Robertson: “You have people that I love — evangelicals.”

About the author

Adelle M. Banks

Adelle M. Banks, production editor and a national reporter, joined RNS in 1995. An award-winning journalist, she previously was the religion reporter at the Orlando Sentinel and a reporter at The Providence Journal and newspapers in the upstate New York communities of Syracuse and Binghamton.

392 Comments

Click here to post a comment

  • Putin has his Russian Orthodox Church and Trump has his Evangelicals.

    Ronald Reagen isn’t looking so bad in hindsight, is he?

  • Is it because power money and dominion are their real gods…

    Or that the values voters don’t have any, and thus see in 2Rump the fulfillment of their dreams of power money and dominion?

  • It is what it is. Mainliners, Ecumenicals & Liberals (and the Nones too) loved Obama & Hillary.

    And now conservative Evangelicals (and the nation of Israel) love Trump.

    No reason for any side to complain, imo.

  • Evangelicals are hypocrites. Trump is the antithesis of Evangelicalism. The weekly-attenders really wanted Cruz, not Trump. They sold their soul for power.

  • When I worked for a local Democratic Party in the 1976 election, by far the day we fielded the most phone calls was the day after Jimmy Carter’s oldest son Jack had joked that Billy Graham had gotten his doctoral degree by mail order. Our instructions were to say Jack Carter had apologized and it did not represent the views of the (then) Governor Carter or the Party. Most were women over 70.
    I think once Billy Graham is no longer among the living, no one evangelical will ever again have the gravitas and charisma to be so influential. Rick Warren tried, but his hipster schtick never got legs. Graham’s success was not so much personality as audacity and he saw his opportunity where a vacuum existed and took it. That formula is not likely to be repeated any time soon.

  • Actually, it was Queen Hillary who won the Antithesis Award.

    Faced with choosing the lesser of two evils, evangelicals went with Trump. There was no other rational choice, really.

  • IMO, the Evangelicals may have loved Trump but most would have voted for a Republican over a Democrat regardless. Romney got 79% of the Evangelical vote, McCain 73% and Bush 79%.

  • This damn administration refuses to acknowledge the NO establishment clause of the 1st amendment!

  • Evangelical Christianity is a religion of filth and crime. It is a religion of consummate evil and pure apostasy. THEY WILL BURN IN HELL.

  • These crass, manipulative, insidious, pernicious evangelicals
    are too busy trolling old scrolls
    and meddling in others’ lives,
    to have time for reading Faust.

  • What have they established that the Religious Left did not establish under the Clintons and Obama? The latter made a far GREATER (and abominable) difference in this regard.

  • Ah, I see you’re talking about the Clintons and Obama here. The Religious Left were their big buddies and did their bidding.

  • People who worship Christ Jesus the Son of God reject Satan. Satanic people reject Christ Jesus.

  • Read David Horowitz’ book Radical Son, and you’ll see that “progressives” (as American Communists called themselves when he was being reared by Communist parents, like Obama was) aligned with the Religious Left, not Bible-believing Christians. They still do.
    Obama buddied up to the Communist Castros in Cuba and nobody made a peep about it. He also had conversations with Putin when on official business. Oh, the hypocrisy of people who condemn Trump for doing LESS in this regard than Obama did.

  • A lot of evangelicals did not love Trump at all. They voted for him because he was not Hillary; they did not want to see the destruction continue.

  • It seems the so-called “Evangelicals” never learn, no doubt because historical criticism is a science. The deeper Richard Nixon sank into his lying, deceit and corruption, the more he surrounded himself with prayer breakfasts and giving access to religious leaders. Rev. Billy Graham got burned, failing to realize how easy it is to fall into the priesthood of ba’al and dance to the tune of false gods. The same will happen here. When you court power that is your ‘god’. And that is called idolatry.

  • Trump, the US’s least ethical leader, linking up with the sleaziest segment of religion in America is not a good sign for our country’s future, with climate change, overpopulation and other problems gathering strength. Americans of all responsible religious traditions must work together to stop this coalition of deplorables.

  • As bad as Nixon was, the Clintons and Obama have done far worse.
    Jimmy Carter allowed the economy to sink into the toilet. All of these buddied up to the Religious Left.

  • Here, here! But it’s a cinch that the press gave Obama and Hillary ‘way more positive press than they’ve given President Trump!

  • The word “unprecedented” in the title here is false. The Religious Left has had much access to liberal presidents. The double standard is a real problem. Liberals condemn conservatives for doing as they do, even less than they do.

  • Trump & Co oppose religious .liberty, public schools, women’s rights of conscience, climate change science, decent health care for all, and our constitutional tradition of church-state separation.

  • Indeed. And that is actually something of an understatement.
    The “mainstream” media were Obama’s cheerleaders, praising him to the skies, rhapsodizing about “chills going up their legs” when he spoke and saying he was “like God looking down over the world”.
    If anybody said anything close to that about any conservative candidate or prez, they would be accused of idolatry (which is what that was).
    It has been almost that bad with the Clintons. The msm is in bed with liberals. They abandoned any pretense of journalistic integrity a loooooooooong time ago. Yellow journalism at its “finest” (actually, worst).

  • A president with all his/her resources and experience and required skills should be capable of dealing with the press.

    Trump jumps into bed with whoever he can. We’ve seen his public statements in that regard.

  • Look at your comments in this comment section. You never defend conservative Christians and their actions vis-a-vis the president, or for anything else. The most you do is reference the “Religious Left.” That is known as a deflection, not a defense of conservative values and actions. Make an arguement if you can, but I have a feeling you can’t and therefore the deflections. By the way, all deflections do is make your position look weak.

  • No deflection at all. Just comparing apples with apples.
    I actually commented on the article. You did not address what I said about it, just made a personal attack. That is always very telling.

  • Do you have an intelligent comment to make about the actual issue? Or just more ramblings?

  • Uh, no you’re not. All you’ve consistenly shown that you do not have the intellectual capacity to make an argument.

  • An unbiased media should be capable of reporting issues as they are instead of attacking people just because they don’t like them — how childish and telling that is.
    Unfortunately the “mainstream” media abandoned all pretense of neutrality looooooong ago; they are guilty of yellow journalism.

  • If the Religious Left followed the teachings of Christ Jesus, they would be completely different. They abandoned His Word loooooong ago.

  • Balooooooneeeyyy. Get real. A president needs to be capable of handling the press.

    ROFL at you again.

  • No it is unprecedented. Going back to Nixon I am not aware of any religious relationship, Republican or Democrat, so narrowly focused, strong and openly unapologetic as with this administration. If you have proof to the contrary please detail it.

  • I’m making real comments about the topic here. Not making personal attacks while avoiding the issue.

  • We reject gods and any supernatural creatures that interact with man. Many of us are agnostic regarding Deism.

  • Way too much to mention. People have criticized Billy Graham roundly for his availability to many presidents. I’ve seen other presidents attend prayer rallies, etc. This admin just seems extreme because the former admin made such a habit of disenfranchising Bible-believing Christians, violating the First Amendment at every turn.
    If George Washington were prez today, liberals would have a field day criticizing him. And he established the precedent for all presidents.

  • It is not true that atheists reject God? I’ve never met one who has denied that. They usually make it a point to let me know that.

  • There is reason to complain – the Democrats and Republicans each think the other is wrong and hypocritical.

  • Everything. He was and is still aligned with the Religious Left.
    “Mediocre” is too kind a word for his disastrous administration.

  • The evangelicals are what they actually are – absolutely dumb. These are the same guys who believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible, they believe in talking snakes, talking donkeys, Lot’s wife turning into a pillar of salt and Jesus walking on water. These are the guys with no scientific knowledge behind them. They don’t accept the truth of evolution and believe that the earth came into existence literally in six days! So naturally being just as idiotic and unscientific as Trump and his ilk, they do endorse him and his ideas fully. Ask any evangelical, especially in the south and mid-west if they believe in climate change the answer will be a big no. BTW, Scott Pruitt, a climate denier is an evangelical and so is Rick Perry and Sean Spicer. Evangelicals will eventually destroy not only the US but the world because they believe that the return of Jesus Christ is imminent and wish to make it happen sooner.

  • Liberals condemn conservatives for doing as they do, even less than they do. This is truly hypocrisy.

  • BTW, I don’t know if you’ve read Billy Graham’s autobiography Just As I Am. In it he said that one of the regrets of his life was being friends with presidents, and why. He also deeply regretted an opportunity he missed to share the Gospel with JKF not long before he was assassinated.

  • Chris, that’s not quite fair!

    Back then I was paying attention to Rev. Graham’s to deploy all available means–including political ones, to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to wider audiences. And also being really tuned in to the political scene back then, I was well aware of how Nixon was willing used ALL religious avenues for whatever political advantage they could provide him!

    So looking on the other end of the political spectrum, how is any of that different from how Obama blatantly USED the mainstream churches to support his super-liberal political agenda? “Idolatry” and “dancing to the tune of false gods,” doesn’t even begin to describe THOSE religio-political scenarios that took place several decades later! By comparison, Nixon was a real lightweight!

  • The primary sin of Billy Graham was to combine religion & politics becoming Nixon’s Master of Ceremony at political rallies. My Grandfather and his identical were both SBC preachers and had nothing good to say about BG right along with my father. Of course they never voiced their opinion as that was the way of the Baptists at the time. Independently I too came to the same conclusion.

    Franklin Graham is actually worse than his father. If he were a member of a mainstream orthodox church he would have been defrocked long ago. However since the reactionaries took over the SBC in a coup there has been no discipline of FG and his ilk.

    As I told my SBC “preacher” brother FG is no Christian and to never send me information about him & his speaking schedule ever again.

  • Claire, you’re RIGHT ON TARGET with your comments here!

    And let’s not forget the immortal (immoral?) words of the little demi-god, amply broadcast all over by the liberal mainstream media:

    “WE are the ones we’ve been waiting for!”

    and,

    “THIS is the moment the oceans begin to recede! THIS is the moment the planet begins to heal!

  • No you were speaking of what you thought about what someone told you that someone else told them might have happened from their viewpoint after they read something else that someone else wrote with their own biases.

  • So, was it “sin” IYO for Billy Graham to be friends with JKF, LBJ, and Clinton, and advise them when they asked him to?
    I don’t know if you’ve read Billy Graham’s autobiography Just As I Am. In it he said that one of the regrets of his life was being friends with presidents, and why. He also deeply regretted an opportunity he missed to share the Gospel with JKF not long before he was assassinated.

  • How is this administration worse in that regard than others, IYO?
    George Washington quoted the Bible in speeches and called for official days of prayer and fasting, citing the Christians’ God as the One to whom our allegiance is due. So did Abraham Lincoln.
    MANY other presidents since them have given glory to God and praised His Word as the source of all wisdom. This was the norm for years and years, but people have either forgotten that or never knew it.

  • I’ll see you in the rapture capsule with the unicorns. Don’t forget to wear your nose ring -the big cast iron one that I padlocked the chain onto when we were practicing for the great Uplifting.

    This time, though, close your mouth before the swirling starts and your head goes in.

  • Iike anyone in the country hasn’t already had “the Gospel” blasted at them ad nauseum ad infinitum ad no more please.

  • Nope.You were speaking of what you thought about what someone told you that
    someone else told them might have happened from their viewpoint after
    they read something else that someone else wrote with their own biases.

  • And this has anything to do with the topic how?

    It doesn’t change the fact that evangelicals are valueless wh0res who have aligned themselves with immoral Trump for political power.

  • You’d be surprised — I have met people in America who have told me that they’ve never heard the Gospel. I grew up in a Religious Left “church” and never heard it there.

  • Who is declaring an unrepentant serial adulterer, cheat and reviler their spiritual leader in exchange for political power? One guess.

  • Nothing wrong with it. It did paint him, to some, as arrogant to think he was the spiritual adviser to Presidents and some labelled him as an opportunist.

  • You’re off the topic. It is unprecedented access and influence to a very specific religious group, not how religious a president is.

  • You are correct in saying that I reject false gods. Atheists reject the One who created all things.

  • Atheists usually tell me they are atheists, and agnostics usually tell me they are agnostics.

  • I said nothing about BG being friends with presidents resulting in behavior considered to be inappropriate at best. Consequently, you are twisting my post to fit your warped reality. BTW, how many SBC preachers are in your family tree?

    I’ve never read BG’s autobiography and will not waste my time doing so. Instead I’ll read works by actual Christians such as President Jimmy Carter, Rev Jim Wallis, Rev Dr William J Barber II, etc.

  • The one promise Obama kept was that he would “fundamentally transform America”. Unfortunately, that was not a good thing. 🙁

  • I spoke truth. Not only was Graham friends with presidents (including one of your heroes, Jimmy Carter, the worst president in modern history until Obama came along), but, as I said, he also advised them when they asked him to — and this too included Jimmy Carter.
    I grew up in a Religious Left “church” (no SBC preachers in my family tree), so I know how deluded those guys you mentioned are. They are the blind leading the blind.

  • He became very well-known due to his preaching, and when presidents called him, he answered — was that arrogance?
    Obama called Religious Left preachers who also answered. Were they arrogant?

  • I’m comparing apples to apples, staying on topic.

    George Washington was only affiliated with Christians. He even attended church every Sunday, which Trump does not do.

    Abraham Lincoln only mentioned the Christians’ God in his speeches, as did every president until very recent history.
    Again: How is this administration worse in that regard than others, IYO?

  • Oh, I didn’t know we were talking about Bill Clinton or his (not) lovely wife who enabled his serial adultery in order to gain political power.
    Or the Religious Left who have worshipped them.

  • BTW, stan, you do realize that Jimmy Carter was a member of an SBC church, right? And taught Sunday School there, too (AFAIK, he still does). Does that explain his warped reality?

  • It has to do with the topic of what he said, because liberals are accusing Trump of doing the very things they have done for decades, including Obama.
    Which means, IYO, those liberals are valueless … you know the rest. They aligned themselves with the immoral Clintons for political power.

  • But it doesn’t. You haven’t shown any of that. You are just deflecting in support of expedience at the cost of moral standing.

    People who throw enthusiastic support, even to the point of reviling others and bearing false witness of a serial adulterer, cheat, bully who swindles people who work for a living, have no business calling anyone valueless or immoral.

    Whatever values you claimed to possess were sold for access to political power.

    You are simply admitting to being a wh0re, but you want to claim others are as well.

    You have no morals to speak of.

  • No evidence the religious left had any access to power through him. Obama, certainly. Clinton not so much.

    So you are admitting selling out professed values. You just don’t want to feel alone in doing so.

  • As do atheists. They reject all false gods. Especially since there is no evidence of a true one.

  • So you admit to being a wh0re.

    That is the first step towards being a good person. Honesty about yourself.

    Bill and Hillary are gone. You are here. So when we talk about power hungry hypocritical miscreants the only ones that fit the description right now are evangelicals. Like you.

  • We aren’t. They are history. Long gone. The only power hungry hypocrites here are Bible thumping like you.

  • Satanists have a more moral code than Evangelical Christians. They oppose religious discrimination.
    https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/tenets

    One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason.

    The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.

    One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.

    The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo your own.

    Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs.

    People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and resolve any harm that may have been caused.

    Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word

  • Deism and atheism cannot be rationally true at the same time. Which one do you accept as rationally true?

  • “Obama blatantly USED the mainstream churches to support his super-liberal political agenda”

    Like access to healthcare, recovery from the worst economic disaster since the Depression and civil liberties. Such an evil agenda!

    Nixon was a saint compared to Cheeto. Nixon earned his political power by hard work (nicknamed “iron bottom” by peers for his fastidious nature) . He served the public prior to presidency. Didn’t hide from military service. He was respected by world leaders.

    Unlike Cheeto, nobody ever accused Nixon of being ignorant, uninformed or possibly illiterate.

    Nixon may have been an SOB, but he wasn’t the living joke we have in office right now.

  • As a journalist for the past 50 years I know what I am talking about. Claire is the one hooked on Kool Aid.

  • They would have us sink to the level of saudi arabia. Pakistan. Turkey. Or the heredi

  • Unfortunately, not so long gone. And this is totally relevant because if Trump was not in the oval office, Hillary would be.

  • Lots and lots of evidence. AFAIK, Obama didn’t even attend church or claim church membership — Edited to add: AFTER his 20-year association with Jeremiah Wright became problematic during his first campaign.

    The Clintons attended Methodist churches from time to time. He would sing in the choir and walk out of church with a great big Bible under his arm for effect.
    But the big issue is that the Religious Left was very active in that admin, and Obama’s, in many ways which affected decisions they made.
    Point is, you condemn Trump for the very things Bill Clinton did and Hillary enabled him to do. And you accuse me of selling out. You obviously don’t know a thing about me. I am not a Trump fan.

  • I was a Journalism major in college. I know yellow journalism when I see it, and “mainstream” media has been very yellow for decades.

  • You would make a great Scientologist. L. Ron Hubbard was a Satanist.

    Are you saying here that you are a Satanist? If so, that explains everything.

  • Two different situations. Religion is man-made and has had tens of thousands of flavors and just as many gods throughout history. Most claim a personal relationship with their god(s). I reject them all based on the major errors in their beliefs which reflect on their deities. You do likewise with the exception of your god. Deism, an intelligent entity that created everything but is not personally involved cannot be proven or disproved. To that idea I have to be agnostic. I usually identify as an atheist to simplify things.

  • **Trump jumps into bed with whoever he can.**
    In this respect it seems he will never compare to the low standard set by Bill Clinton. I am no Trump fan and do not agree with him on a number of things, but he doesn’t seem to be as amoral as Clinton.

  • Honest statements about Clinton make me nothing but truthful. Did you oppose Clinton because he was so amoral, or do you only condemn Trump?
    If Trump were not in office, Hillary would be. So everything about her (and Bill) is relevant. I am not a Trump fan, but she would be even worse. Unfortunately, those were the only viable choices.

  • There are two issues here that point to your fate which culminates in the pronouncements of Jesus Christ in Matt 25. You are the Pharisees. You are the Goats. And for rejecting Jesus Christ and His commands, you shall burn in hell for eternity.

    First, the entire system of Evangelical theology involves a cherry picking and twisting of scripture to come up with the idea that all religion is mere assent in the mind to a fact or doctrine: all you must do is believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved. That sounds great and correct, and yet because of the way you have done it, your religion consists of caring for little but the extreme individualism of your own personal salvation. As a result, you then structure your churches to contain those whom you judge to be saved, while throwing all others out. This is the opposite of Christ’s directives and commands.

    While there are exceptions and Evangelical Christianity is more thought of as an umbrella group, there are unifying similarities. Nearly all activity is advertising your “mental assent” doctrine while generally ignoring the entirety of Christ’s ministry and commands. Aside from the half-assed soup kitchen here and there you use to spread your evangelism, you do little to help other human beings. It is like the ministry of Jesus Christ never happened. It is like His commands to serve others are not in your Bibles.

    In fact, it is even worse. A great deal of your politics are cheaply disguised refutations that you actually are even remotely responsible for your neighbor. The vast majority of you voted in an administration and Congress dedicated to Goldwater Republicanism, which is not only the dismantlement of any safety net, but is proving to be about the removal of medical care from tens of millions to fund a tax cut. And please, spare me the lie after lie you people are throwing around that this is not so. You are going to burn in hell by mere weight of the filthy lies that scream from your mouths.

    And thus you exist in a state of absolute apostasy. For Jesus Christ said that while you are saved by faith in Him, religion consists of action. You must bring your fellow man to Christ and you must heal the sick and clothe the poor. Do you not read the gospels? Do you even read them? Do you even believe in the Bible?

    For the general part (and there are exceptions) Evangelicals have turned into the exact group of people that Jesus Christ condemned: the Pharisees. You start as advertisement factories for mental assent. And then you strengthen your communities solely through the strict and sometimes brutal enforcement of narrow invented and arbitrary social norms. This involves identifying those groups in society you think God hates, and then you treat these pariahs like absolute garbage. Think of the gay, the immigrant, and the poor. You people are some of the most criminal evil, uncaring terrible human beings in this nation. You live in a religion of filthy selfishness and hatred.

    You have supplanted the Culture War for the gospel of Jesus Christ. You have disobeyed the direct commands of your Savior. You have trampled God’s other children under the mud, throwing entire minorities from God in the practice of your apostasy. And while God’s mercy is infinite, time is not. And, for this the lake of fire has been prepared.

  • You cannot deflect from your sin by pointing to the sin of others. Stop mocking God. Do you think He is stupid?

  • Christ Jesus said there are tares among the wheat. That’s a given. But Jason’s wholesale condemnation was uncalled for.

  • The person who talked about “chills going up their legs” was referring to George W. Bush. I’m not familiar with your other quote. Who said it and what was the context?

  • I know of no liberal person who has made comments like that of the man you look up to, who said this (bracket words are bowlderized):
    “I did try and [tuck] her. She was married. I moved on her like a [birch].”

  • But Jason’s wholesale condemnation was uncalled for.

    This coming from someone who called progressive people “Communists”… that’s rich!

  • L. Ron Hubbard was a con man, science fiction writer who founded his own religion to swindle people out of their money for bogus ‘reprogramming’ of people’s minds. He was a huckster.
    A satanist?? You can’t make that case. I think your mind is as controlled by Christian ideology as are the people whose lives are ‘devoted’ to Scientology. Go to Tampa FL and see the headquarters. Huge money making org. Big bucks are what he wanted.

  • If you knew how to make a decent argument, you might be able to express your hate better. But you believe lies about Obama and try to recycle them here. It’s simply NOT TRUE.

  • The person who talked about “chills going up their legs” was referring to Barack Obama, not W. Chris what’s-his-name at MSNBC said that.
    He may have also been the one who made the statement comparing Obama to God, or it might have been another reporter/anchor.
    Both of those statements were made by a guy or guys in “mainstream” media.

  • Please supply links for each of these quotes. You said you’re a journalist, so you must know the rules of accuracy.

  • First, I don’t look up to Trump and I haven’t said that I do. Secondly, how did you miss all the accusations women made about Bill Clinton? It would be funny if it weren’t so sad, that nobody seemed to care about what BC did.
    There is a HUGE double standard for liberals and conservatives.

  • For Biblical evidence on what is going to happen to people who behave as Pharisees, read the gospels – all of them. A good place to start would be with Matt 25. Gone are the days of proof texting one’s favorite verses in order to justify apostasy and sin. You must read them all. And you must figure out what Jesus is telling you.

    For evidence of how Evangelical Christianity works, merely be an Evangelical. I was a Southern Baptist for a long while and I think I know what I am talking about. I’ve sat on church boards and voted with the pastor to throw gays and even their whole families from the church. I’ve even approved of parents who engaged in child abuse and threw such kids to the street. It is all so incredibly despicable.

    As for evidence on Evangelical support for Trump, Congress and their policies, merely listen to your own leadership. Read you OWN polls. Listen to Jerry Falwell Jr.. Listen to Franklin Graham. Go listen to Tony Perkins or Mike Huckabee. Come on now, are you deaf to what is coming out of your mouths? Read what your denominational leadership is saying.

    And yes, Evangelical Christianity is an umbrella term and represents a wide variety of denominations. And while there are exceptions, the general approach I have outlined applies to a great many of them.

    It is amazing. Out of one side of Evangelicals mouths comes all this horrible apostasy, and then out of the other comes “but prove that we say and do these things”. I’m sorry, but the days of believing that any such behavior is anything more than deception are over.

  • You are right about Bill Clinton, except that his record isn’t very liberal. At best he’s a centrist, but personally I consider him to be outright conservative. If you were specifying Democrats instead of liberals, you’d be closer to correct.

  • I just love this publicly expressed desire that evangelicals make to get a conservative supreme court so they can shape their religion further and further into law, while asking us for evidence they are doing it. Really??

  • Do you know how many scandals there were in the Obama administrations over the 8 years he served the US so ably??? NONE!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Bush43, Reagan (Iran Contra), Nixon–dozens of them. Reagan barely survived Iran Contra. Bush got us into an unnecessary war with Iraq, we fought a war on a credit card and your grandchildren and mine will be paying for that war to the end of our days. Reagan made a deal with IRAN to get the hostages released on the day of his Inauguration, a back channel deal so he’d get the glory.
    Such a hollow hero who had to betray a sitting president and the American people so he’d look like a winner.

  • our founding fathers were no Christians. They were deists. They believed in a god but that god has absented himself from the world so humans could prove themselves. We’re not doing well now, with Trumpy, are we?? He’s the greatest sleaze ball I ever saw.

  • Lady, you are obsessed with Obama. The real wrongdoer is Trump, whom the Christian right support to the hilt. In their greed for power and control of things like our public schools, they have sold their souls .

  • But not relevant to the discussion.

    You are not denying the lack of morality, hypocrisy and willingness to sell out professed values for a pittance of political access Evangelicals are doing right now, including yourself.

    “Did you oppose Clinton because he was so amoral, or do you only condemn Trump?”

    I don’t pretend to vote based on “strong moral values” like Bible thumping hypocrites do. So it is a non-issue. Nor did you see the kind of dishonest gushing over Clinton that right wing Christian wh0res are doing for Trump.

    Also as far as I know Clinton never stiffed a contractor or employee of their duly earned compensation, defrauded middle class people, engaged in racial discrimination in any venture he was involved in, nor sought help from foreign governments to “game” an election. Plus you didn’t have experts and analysts avoiding government service for fear of their professional reputations with Clinton. Nobody with any kind of expertise wants to work for Cheeto. They consider him a professional ethical hazard.

    But most importantly, the Clintons are gone. The only immoral hypocritical syncophants left in the room are you guys.

    It is best to stop addressing empty chairs.

  • Claire, you seem to be obsessed with your version of reality. Perhaps it is you and yours who are willfully blind.

  • ” L. Ron Hubbard was a Satanist.”

    No he wasn’t. You are batting zero for assertions of fact so far.

    “You would make a great Scientologist”

    Nope. Don’t take direction well, plus I am too frugal to get anywhere in that organization. They want people with disposable income galore.

    “Are you saying here that you are a Satanist? If so, that explains everything.”

    Nope. Just someone who can’t stand sanctimonious religious types who are trying to destroy our fine democratic institutions. I have no problem with religious belief, just don’t care for it personally. As long as you aren’t trying attack others in service of your faith, and can play nice with others, I couldn’t care less what you believe.

  • Can’t think of a single religious left figure who acted with any degree of access to either administration. Neither can you evidently.

    Certainly not like Pat Robertson’s current relationship and Cheeto.

  • Whether congress makes no laws respecting religion establishment to prevent a christian establishment here, or christians bully their way into govt and make it establish a theocracy, it’s still an unconstitutional establishment of religion. Many of these evangelicals believe and have convinced Trump that the wall is a one way wall, congress cannot make law establishing religion but christianity has the right and responsibility of pushing their way into american govt that winds up doing the same thing.

    When cities allow only christian prayers in govt they are sued and made to either accept all faiths (and none) or keep religion out of govt completely. Someone needs to SUE THIS BASTARD into oblivion. White christians are a minority in america now, theocrats and dominionists are a very small percentage of the population, so them having this much access to the WH is scary, wrong, and unconstitutional.

  • That is because you are afraid of that “naked lunch*” moment of clarity and trying to put it off as much as possible by dwelling on nostalgia and a fictional past. You are mentally avoiding the moment you realize the kind of ignorant, amoral, deviant you supported and helped put in office.

    Good luck with that.

    *The naked lunch is William S. Burrough’s term for that moment when one “realizes what is at the end of their fork”.

  • prove that he created all things? Where is he? point out to me where he is?? I never saw or felt Him and believe me, I’ve tried. I certainly didn’t see him in theology school.

  • all you have to talk about is your Hillary hate???
    You know, you aren’t distracting anyone from knowing what Trump and the religious right are doing to this country. Hate is such a banal emotion. I thought Christianity was about god’s love.

  • I never denied god, nor have the other non-theists I know. You can’t deny something that does not exist and and no one has ever seen. And please don’t spout off about miracles.

  • Billy Graham is a good man compared with his noxious right wing shill of a son, Rev. Franklin Graham who has supported our disgusting president from the start.

  • Our reliance on an oil economy were a national failure. Blame the banks and the economists and greed. We went to war in the Middle East because of the ‘addiction’ to oil. We saw it as ‘our oil’. Unfortunately for them, it was under their soil (sands) and we took it.
    If you know anything about Rex Tillerson, you know he was CEO of Exxon. The oil boon continues with Putin and Russia. And ordinary people get killed, dissenters to Putin get assassinated right and left. And as long as your backsides are warm in winter you people in the religious right think that is fine. Everything must serve the American Empire.

  • It was easy.

    Trump creates his own bad press every 12-14 hours when he Tweets something inane, malicious or silly. The guy intentionally relies of a negative 24 hour news cycle to feel relevant and avoid the job of being president.

    Also Obama and Hillary were experienced in public service, they knew how to avoid coming off like they were uninformed, blatantly pandering, or just plain malicious in the press. That comes from having respect for the power of the press and for institutions of our democracy. Trump, coming from his experience as a reality TV host has no idea how to deal with live, unedited media.

  • Your observations are your observations. They can be biased, wrongheaded, and incorrect. And yet, people like you advance them, day after day, as some ultimate truth.

  • At this point even leaders of other nations we are allied with have written off Trump as an ignoramus who can’t be dealt with reasonably.

    China and Russia have been trolling Cheeto mercilessly and he is too thick to pick up on it.

    Saudi Arabia played Trump like a cheap banjo in their efforts to blockade Qatar.

  • except Reagan gave away the store to Evangelicals. He was our first Evangelical in Chief. Gingrich loved it. Now Gingrich’s wife (his former mistress) is the ambassador to the Vatican, a bogus posting that shouldn’t exist.

  • That is why I used him to compare to Trump. I would trade Trump for him in a heartbeat. He was a decent man.

  • Whatever college you earned it from, should feel ashamed. Unless it was Oral Roberts U or Liberty U. Then they got exactly the kind of person they were trying to produce. Those places have no concept of shame.

    Trump has no idea how health insurance works, yet he wants to remove it for 20,000,000+ Americans. He literally couldn’t tell the difference between health insurance and a life insurance policy.
    http://boingboing.net/2017/07/20/trump-so-befuddled-on-health-i.html

    Its not the press which makes Trump look bad, its his obvious ignorance, lack of ethics, unprofessional demeanor, pettiness, and public displays of arrogance. Coupled that with a legion of dishonest apologetic cretins supporting him.

  • No more than they reject unicorns, leprechauns and the Tooth Fairy. When credible objective evidence presents itself, it will be considered.

  • “You can’t deny something that does not exist” – seeing how “God or “No-God are both non-falsifiable propositions, your faith statement is an assertion that is no more true/false than me saying “You can’t deny something that most certainly exists – i.e. God.” Its simple logic really.

  • Actually that is somewhat incorrect. Very few religions claim “a personal relationship” with their god. Any brief study of comparative religions will show you that. In fact, that is the one of the most unique things about Christianity. Somewhat true all Abrahamic faiths, but God became very personal and accessible in Christianity.

  • LOL. What nonsense. Obviously nobody understands basic Christian theology around here and that’s ok but gawd…Ever heard of liberation theology? Or maybe the Black version of it from someone like Jeramiah (sp) Wright – Obama’s pastor for over 20 years? Christianity is people, which means its in the left, middle, and right. And I have it on good authority that nobody (except Jesus Christ) has 100% of the truth on their side.

  • No, we all knew the Boolean choice of Trump or Hillary was not very appealing…so we held our noses and voted for Trump. Better the con-man you know than the white-collar criminal Hilliary and Clinton Inc. At least it keeps the secular-progressives at bay.

  • Decent being relative, though. I’d take Bush43 back just to make Trump disappear and I despise “W” and called he and Darth Vader Cheney horrid names. But at least Bush had some, though little, decency.

  • I just looked up your citation. Oh, he’s that guy, trying to make Trumpy normal. Saw his discussion on CNN2’s BookTV. He’s fit only for low information voters who will believe anything. I’ve had Christians tell me that people only need one book, the bible. Now I suppose you want us to read Horowitz’s screed.
    I could send links to books but I don’t. It’s tacky.

  • “I am the best at everything I do!”
    “Why can’t I win this game???”
    “The equipment must be faulty?”

  • More twisting of facts & reality by a member of the alt-right in order to fit your dogma.

    President Jimmy Carter (Note: that is the correct and proper way to address him) lead several churches to leave the SBC due to the anti-Christian positions of the same. Trying to call him a member of the SBC is simply a lie. What did The Christ say about lying? You should research his teachings on the manner.

    BTW, I have an earned doctorate and am a member of the Episcopalian wing of The Body of Christ. We do not simply sit like good little bobble heads and lap up what ever comes down from the sage on the stage. No, instead we are known as Educated Christians which leads to the consternation of many of our clergy. We are not afraid to challenge anything or press for further clarification.

    So you call President Carter, Rev Jim Wallis, Rev Barber and the like “blind”. That’s not any different than when my SBC “preacher” brother referred to the Episcopal Church and other mainline orthodox churches as “social clubs”. That was committing blasphemy. His behavior also includes sacrilegious actions by holding altar calls at funerals, including one at our Father’s.

    To top it off there is the issue of idolatry. By falsely declaring the KJV of the Bible to be “inspired” or “inerrant” places this particular version above God and in turn places those who have the power to “officially” interpret said version above God, or blatant idolatry.

    As to FG he is also a member of the anti-Christian alt-right and on top of that has committed felonies by supporting the Bundy terrorists when they took over the Federal Wildlife Preserve in Oregon.

    As a disabled combat vet I find his disrespect for our country extremely disturbing.

    One last thing, I actually feel sorry for you as you have fallen for the cult like behavior of the alt-right.

  • I mean gods that are prayed to and answer prayers or interact with mankind such as the Greek and Roman gods. But no, I have no statistics to justify “most”.

  • I shouldn’t have used “reject” – it’s that God is presented as being the norm. It’s more that I have no reason to believe in a god or gods. Cosmology claims that a god isn’t needed to explain the universe.

  • Don’t have to prove it. Paul said “We walk by faith.” II Cor. 5: 7. Creation itself tells you that for the kind of design you see in creation there has to be a designer. What creation can’t tell you is this: THAT the designer is a savior. For you to know that HIS Spirit has to tell you – When or even if He ever does you will no longer need the kind of “proof” you are demanding. Only Thomas got that kind of proof.
    And what kind of a “school of theology” did you go to not to know this? I’d demand my money back if I were you.

  • Cosmology has claimed a lot of things that were later disproved. But cosmology as a science depends upon causes and effects.

  • Arguing that one must have “Faith” in order to believe is the last resort of those who haven’t a clue.

  • Just thinking out loud here.
    I had a naked fork moment once and believed I was hungry. If there is no evidence of food does that make me a ate theist?
    Man I apologize. That’s really bad.

    Hey about Claire’s comments dead on, wait till she taste the crap she feeding everyone. She and them ain’t the voice or the face or the model for what Christianity should be.

  • Six decades with SBC as a member, Sunday school teacher, deacon makes him the Religious Left ? Whoa – hold your horses there. Or perhaps it was his decision in 2009 before leaving SBC based on how women were treated within SBC.

  • You’ve been to “theology” school and don’t know that faith is gift from God. And clearly you don’t have it.

  • “clearly”??
    how do you know what you “know”?
    how do you know that faith is a gift from God??

    Because ‘the bible tells me so” is not truth…to everyone. It’s your truth and I accept and appreciate that. That is not my truth, But you don’t have the right to say if I have or don’t have faith. Maybe I have more faith than you, just a different understanding than you.

  • I know liberals and “progressives” who know those things were true. We get along just fine because we know those things happen on both sides. My only issue is with people who condemn conservatives for the very things they don’t/didn’t condemn liberals for. A double standard is just hypocrisy.

  • So you prefer a liberal supreme court, which we’ve had for years? Of course conservatives who hold deeply-felt beliefs re: right and wrong want better leadership for our nation. There’s nothing wrong with that.

  • I haven’t seen or heard him say anything about Trump. I’ve been reading his autobiography. Can you direct me to a webpage which gives his statements about Trump? I know, it’s deemed a “screed” when it’s a former radical Communist talking about his change of heart / mind to conservative beliefs. I expected to hear that.

  • Oh yes, there were scandals during Obama’s term — it’s just that the msm didn’t report them as they have typically condemned conservatives. That’s yellow journalism. Benghazi and other scandals were exponentially worse than Trump having conversations with Putin. He has broken no laws, nor have Americans died as they did at Benghazi because Hillary refused their thousands of desperate requests for aid while they were under attack. Our military could have rescued them, but were not released to do so. Sickening.

  • To be clear, *I* did not call Communists “progressives”. THEY did. But then you already knew that. (I’m assuming you can read and comprehend when you want to.)

  • There is no equivalency between liberal religious people and the ultraconservative right which have been persecuting LGBT persons. Conservative Christians are trying to turn this nation into a theocracy and impose Christian sharia-type law.
    Go watch the Handmaid’s Tale and get back to me.

    While you’re at it watch “The Spotlight” about the Boston Globe trying to do it’s job and tell about the clergy sexual abuse done by priests and having conservatives accuse them of being “anti-Catholic.”

    Saying both sides are equally bad, in this case, is an intellectual and moral cop-out.

  • I was asking you for Biblical evidence that “evangelicals are goats, have rejected Christ Jesus and His commands, and will burn in Hell for eternity.”
    Yes, that is wholesale condemnation. Christ Jesus said there would be tares among the wheat (if you were as active in church as you say, you should know that), that men’s hearts would grow cold toward the end of the age, that many would depart from God’s Word. I agree with you on all of that because I believe God’s Word to be truth.
    At the same time, I am fully aware that there is wheat among the tares — believers and unbelievers sit side by side in churches, and only the Lord Himself knows their hearts.
    I grew up in a Religious Left “church” which had a corrupt pastor (though I didn’t learn that until I was a teen about to go off to college), and I know that there were many tares in that church. But I also believe there was some wheat (how, I don’t know, maybe because they grew up hearing the truth). I honestly never heard the clear Gospel in that “church”.
    You throw out men’s names but do not delineate what the problem is. I was/am not a Trump fan, but I do believe he cannot be any worse a president than Hillary would have been, and he may be better — I’m speaking of a better prez, not Christian (I don’t see godly fruit in her life, either).
    Hillary (and Bill) have had such serious issues, I could pretty much turn everything you said on its head and say that No Christian Could Ever Vote For Them. And that if they do, They Are In Gross Disobedience to Christ Jesus And Will Burn In Hell For All Eternity.
    I could make that case, but I won’t. Only the Lord God knows every heart. As tempting as it might be, I’m not going to judge people based on their political bent.

  • This is a ridiculous, asinine, irrelevant comment. What do you think is my sin? Others here commented on Trump’s sin and I commented on the Clintons’ sin.
    Why is it okay to point to Trump’s, but not the Clintons’? That is unrighteous, biased judgment. It is a double standard which is hypocrisy. That’s exactly what Christ Jesus judged the Pharisees for doing.
    I have never mocked God and I know His wisdom is infinitely greater than any man’s could ever be. But you already knew that about me. You just love to be offensive.

  • If you voted for Bill Clinton, you supported an ignorant, amoral deviant and helped put him in office.
    If you condemn Trump but don’t condemn him, you are guilty of unrighteous judgment.
    I’ve already said over and over again here that I was/am not a Trump fan. I had grave concerns about him during the campaign. I also had grave concerns about Hillary which were grounded in reality. I don’t know what kind of prez he will turn out to be, but he can’t be any worse. Maybe he’ll be better. We did not have a great choice.

  • Are you and other liberals here “the voice or the face or the model for what Christianity should be”? If so, feel free to judge.

  • Wow, you, like so many liberals, have developed amnesia. I remember how obvious this was when Clinton, Gore, and Albright warned of WMD’s in Iraq throughout the ’90s after the WTC was bombed in 1993.

    Then all of a sudden when W took action, they too developed amnesia and pretended they never took that stand and that those who did were crazy.

    Same for Hillary who voted for our military to invade Afghanistan and Iraq, then condemned W for the war. Stark raving hypocrisy.

  • I don’t believe lies about Obama or the Clintons. I witnessed those things firsthand.

  • with your cognitive bias as thick as it is, I’m sure you believe you saw what you ‘witnessed’….
    Have a nice life. You are hopeless mired in a bubble of lies. Must get suffocating in there.

  • It wasn’t ORU or Liberty. I didn’t know about those colleges in those days. I was reared in a Religious Left “church” and we didn’t even know about those places.

    Obamacare was created to implode, creatively after he left office and left the mess for his successor(s). Premiums have been going up every year, the working poor have been disenfranchised out, taxes are prohibitive, small businesses have been greatly harmed, people are fined if they choose not to participate (!).

    He lied and said we could keep our doctors, etc. I know real people who have suffered because of O’care. Some have gone from paying $300 for cancer treatments to being billed $3000, which they cannot pay, thus the cancer goes untreated. Etc, etc.

    The only people who have not gone through this are those who live off the government (taxpayers). Before you get all high and mighty about that statement, know that I am all for supporting the elderly and those who are disabled and cannot work. But not able-bodied people who don’t want to work.

    When O’care inevitably crashed (had Hillary become prez), we would have been forced into a single-payer system which would have created a host of other problems on top of that mess.

    Every single medical professional I know (many in several doctors’ offices and hospitals) have hated O’care from the beginning. They could see from the start what an unmitigated mess it was going to be. Some of these are liberal, some are conservative, and some are apolitical. I want to see a much-better health system. It can’t get any worse.

  • That’s really sad, about your theology school. What a huge waste of time and money. I’m so sorry.

  • Okay, serious question, pennyroyal: Who or what is your faith in? By what objective standard do you determine what is true and false, what is right and wrong?

  • That is true, Mark. Many Islamists have commented on this very thing. The Christian God of Love and forgiveness is foreign to them.

  • Look up L. Ron Hubbard and Satanism and you’ll find the Wikipedia page about that, about his association with Anton LeVey.

  • ITA with your first paragraph, also his greed. No argument there.
    I didn’t learn about his association with Anton LeVey and Satanism until I read the history of it at Wikipedia. No Christian ever told me about it. I discovered that purely by accident after reading Leah Remini’s book expose’.

  • I know that Rex Tillerson made the effort to get North Korea to release the young man who had been tortured there and later died because he was not released earlier.
    That young man’s father said that he did not vote for Trump, he was not a conservative, but he said Obama had done nothing to help his son, and Tillerson did. He had nothing but good things to say about Trump and Tillerson.
    You make so many condemnations, but you are blind to good things which are done by conservatives (or at least centrists) and evil things done by liberal admins.

  • Yes, some SBC churches have been wolves in sheep’s clothing. Which is why they had the major turmoil throughout the 1970s and 1980s.
    Jimmy Carter was part of the Religious Left. Where did he go when he left the SBC? Did his home church leave the SBC and join up with the liberal CBF? (Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, founded for that reason)
    Last I heard, he was still in his home church. I saw an article about him teaching SS there after he recuperated from brain surgery / cancer. That was after 2009.

  • Well said, Mark. Maybe liberals here are ignorant of the facts you posted? But how can that be? They all say they are well-informed about facts.

  • Meow. Are you catty now??
    Not a waste at all. I got to work as a hospice chaplain for six years meeting and supporting people as they approach the end of life. It was amazing to be with such beautiful loving families working to give their loved ones a ‘good death’. Without theology school, I wouldn’t have had that experience and it was profound and meaningful. And people were so grateful for hospice and the work of the hospice team.

  • I answered this above. If he has left it, that happened looooong after he was prez. I know that he taught SS at his childhood church after his fairly recent brain surgery/cancer recovery.

  • My statements are based on the Word of God. “My” reality is not mine — it is objective, not subjective.

    I’m not sure how you define “obsessed”, but lots of people are following me around here. Perhaps it is they who are obsessed.

  • Oh my word, it is somehow disrespectful to call Jimmy Carter by his full name when George W. Bush was called all sorts of appelations, including GWB, W, and shrub? Give me a break. lol

    Now that the stuffy talk is out of the way, let’s address issues here:

    1) How young are you, that you don’t know that Carter was a member of his childhood SBC church the whole time he was prez, and for years afterward? pennyroyal says he left it in 2009, but I know that he taught SS there AFTER his brain cancer / surgery, which was AFTER 2009. It is certainly possible that his home church left the SBC at some point for the CBF (which came out of the SBC and officially went liberal in the early ’90s).

    2) I know lots of people who have earned doctorates from seminaries and other institutions of learning. Forgive me if I don’t kneel at your feet, okay? You are human like everybody else. Unfortunately, your chosen denomination chose to depart from God’s Word into apostasy some time ago. Dear friends were heartbroken because they could not stay in it in good conscience.

    OT, but how is it sacrilegious to have an altar call at a funeral? Chapter and verse, please. I know several people who turned to the Lord from lives of sin and degradation because the reality of eternal life hit them at that moment and they did not want to spend eternity in Hell, but in Heaven with the Lord and loved ones who were children of God.

    I do call Religious Leftists blind, because they deny the Gospel and preach a false gospel which cannot save people from sin.

    You may not agree with FG’s political stands, but he has not denied the Gospel. He does proclaim the Word of God. I’m not saying he’s perfect; no one is. I’m saying that he teaches the right things. God knows his heart.

    ALL combat vets I know (many from several wars, including disabled vets) supported Trump and could not understand my concerns about him.

    One last thing: I feel great sorrow for you because it seems you have swallowed the lies of the Religious Left hook, line, and sinker.

  • Lol, it’s not obsession to point out the obvious. My analogy there was completely reasonable.
    My goodness, Obama spent his entire presidency blaming his failures on Bush! So, was Obama obsessed? By your standard, yes.
    Public schools have been indoctrination centers for years. Those who subscribe to humanism have sold their souls.

  • Obama’s foreign policy (or what passed for it) was pathetic. Hillary’s would have been even worse, based on her dismal performance as Secretary of State. Unfortunately, Hillary and Trump were our only options.

  • You’re right about one thing: Obama and Hilary knew how to put on a good show, at least until the facts were revealed.

    Trump is not a politician. He is not skilled at presenting a fake front.

  • Chris Matthews at MSNBC made the first worshipful statement, possibly the second. You’re presenting an informed front, and you don’t know / remember that? What planet have you been living on for the last nine years?

    I did not say I am a journalist. Didn’t you say you are? First rule, read / listen carefully and get your story straight. Your willful obtuseness reminds me of the msm.

    I said I was a journalism major. After a couple of years I decided to change to music major because that was much more interesting to me. It’s been a great career.

  • Enough already. You’ve fully established your ignorance and lack of civility.

    You’re nothing but an uneducated troll as you continue to ignore the principle questions, a tactic used commonly by the alt-right when they have no legitimate answer or position.

    I refuse to waste any more time on such a nescient simpleton.

  • There you go, the mark of a liberal: Call disagreement hate and demonize the ones you disagree with.
    Instead of attacking me (a very telling ruse), argue with what I actually said. Prove me wrong.

  • Ah, the mark of a true liberal: Misconstrue facts of what someone actually said and accuse them of saying things they did not say.
    As you already know, I did not blame Bill Clinton’s sins on Hillary. I merely told the truth, that she enabled him to get away with them. Do you remember how she embarrassed herself by telling an interviewer that the Monica Lewinsky affair was just “a vast right-wing conspiracy”?
    If it had not been for Linda Tripp, Hillary would have got away with that lie and would have enabled him to get away with his sin.
    That’s just one example.
    If you want to talk about low morals, let’s go there.

  • Since moral values are not an issue for you, then why do you insist on judging Trump? That’s hypocrisy.
    My posts are totally relevant, because they’re about judging people (if you insist) by the same standard, not a double standard which lets one off the hook and condemns the other one. That is also hypocrisy.

  • I can’t agree with you that Bill Clinton is an outright conservative (I do believe that Hillary would have been worse), but at least you presented your opinion in a non-offensive way. That is very refreshing here and I appreciate it. 🙂

  • One of the founders (but not a signer of the Declaration of Independence or Constitution, AFAIK) really was a deist — Thomas Paine. But even he believed that God had created the universe.

    Some of the founders (who DID sign those documents) were church pastors. The majority were professed Christians who praised God’s Word as the source of wisdom. Even Benjamin Franklin (not a professed Christian) did that when he called for three days of prayer and fasting.

  • Yes, they did not want a church-ruled state or a state-controlled church such as they had left behind in Europe. Hence, the First Amendment. They wanted churches to be free of government control.

  • I appreciate Billy Graham’s ministry. Because I grew up in a Religious Left “church”, seeing him speak on television gave me my first real exposure to the Gospel. At the same time, he has made some real mistakes. He admits this in his autobiography.
    I was/am not a Trump fan, but I do understand why Franklin Graham, whom I have admired for his years and years of ministry to poor, disenfranchised people in foreign countries, supported him.
    Many other preachers have supported candidates and presidents who were disgusting to me.

  • Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Me.”

  • Disagreement with sexual immorality, according to God’s Word, does not equal hate — just the opposite. God IS Love and He condemns all sexual immorality.

  • I hear you. I caught a documentary on RR’s life recently. He was so personable, so affable, great sense of humor, such a witty and effective communicator. And. yes, he seemed to be a very decent man.
    I don’t know that our nation deserves such a president now, but I sure would love to have it so.

  • Oops, how.on.earth could I have forgotten about Pastor Jeremiah Wright, whose church the Obamas attended for 20 years, and to which BHO gave thousands of dollars in donations?
    Wright’s church subscribes to Black Liberation Theology, which is so far Left, it was birthed in Communism way back in the 1960s. It was Wright who implored his god to damn America. He and Louis Farrakhan are big friends.
    I learned about BLT from Africans who attended college in this country and had seen that for many years. Fortunately, they were not deceived and became Bible-believing Christians. Wright was not the only Religious Leftist influence in Obama’s life, but he may have been the most radical.

  • Not at all. My life is filled with the goodness, peace, love, truth and power of God. It’s indescribably wonderful in comparison to the years I did not know Him.
    As a dear friend said recently: My worst day in the Lord is exponentially better than my best one was without Him.

  • I am so sorry for you that you cannot receive a genuine comment without rejecting it as “catty”.
    I’m glad the theology school prepared you for that. I’m just sorry that it seems to have robbed you of genuine Biblical faith in Christ Jesus. That’s not catty, it’s real.

  • No problem, stan. You’re the one who ignored all my points, but I’ll let that pass. I sincerely pray the Lord will bless you.

  • P.S. And not only did they “try” to force their beliefs into law, they succeeded.

  • Two things: Evangelicals are “sola scriptura”. We believe that all must be born again in order to become children of God and inherit eternal life.
    These beliefs are anathema to Catholics, along with other evangelical / Biblical beliefs.

  • P.S. The point is, the Clintons profess to be Christians! Their church affiliation is UMC. Thus, they are blatant hypocrites whose actions belie their stated beliefs.
    IF Trump is a Christian (note, I’m not assuming he is), that happened recently. AFAIK, he is not affiliated with any church.
    So … he hasn’t lived a hypocritical life as they have.

  • I think you may be right about specifying Democrats. When RINOs do outrageous things, they are condemned as conservative Republicans are.

  • Still not relevant. Evangelicals like you have foregone any pretension of “values voting” or “political morals” they profess.

  • “Moral political issues” are your reason for being around in the first place. My professed views are not the ones being undermined here.

  • Only worthless to those who don’t care about the truth and don’t want to know the truth.

  • Sabelotodo2, I missed those statements — wow, how outlandish! Did Obama say those things? If so, when and in what context; what did the last statement refer to?

  • LOL, “not relevant”. When every liberal on the planet lambastes conservatives for doing wrong, saying they are hypocrites because they proclaim moral beliefs.
    Well, if that’s true (and I agree it is, for ANYone), then it is just as true for liberals. Prime example: The Clintons, as I demonstrated above.
    You just want to have your cake and eat it too, with the old double standard which libs have used forever. But the cat is out of the bag now, and it’s not going back in.

  • Your professed views are THE ones being exposed here for what they really are! My word, are you that blind that you can’t see that?
    Again, I’m no Trump fan. When Christian friends said he was a Christian, I was the odd man out, saying I could not see that. I saw comparisons with him and the Clintons from the very beginning.
    Unfortunately, the only two viable choice for prez were Trump and Hillary. I already knew how bad she was and figured Trump could not possibly do any worse. He might even do better in the long run.

  • My professed views?

    You can’t even figure out what they are. You called me a Scientologist, a Satanist, mistakenly think I still care of foibles of a two term president a generation ago, and then expected me to declare your natterings as the word of god. You are all over the place.

    I think you have a tough handle on what anyone else believes. I guess valueless hypocrites like evangelicals want to think they have company. So much projection and deflection. I bet you know the best stores for finding knee pads.

  • I have yet to see liberals say, “God says you must vote my way”. They are generally too polite and respectful of other faiths to be so rude. Conservative Christians are nothing but rude. Especially when they claim god gives them a privilege to crap on the rights of everyone else.

  • Claire, both of these statements were made during his first presidential campaign. I’m not sure on what occasion he made the first one, probably some campaign stop with millenials, etc. I’m certain the second statement was made at the Brandenberg Gate on a pre-election visit to Germany.

  • It doesn’t really matter if they all climb into the hot tub with Trump and play footsy, “access” is pretty worthless. Trump is no conservative and no Christian, but neither was that Harpy he was running against. She made the strategic booboo of letting it slip what she thought of “deplorables” and apparently she thought the “deplorables” have very short memories.

  • David Duke is a republican. David Duke can quote Abraham Lincoln, a earlier republican to defend his political positions. If he were to do this he would make Abraham Lincoln a liar by claiming his approval.
    I’m would not be judging David Duke’s claim of being a republican. I would be judging what Abraham Lincoln’s view of David Duke stands for today.

    I’m making a judgement on Christianity, my judgement is not based on you quoting the truth of things said. My judgement is based on true things said applied to lives other than yours.

  • The evangelicals supporting Trump come hell or high water have sold their souls to the Golden Cow (see Exodus 32 -34), taking the Name of the Lord in vain as they foolishly declare God’s favor on Donald Trump. Well yes, maybe the Lord did intervene in some way to have him elected, but it may not have been for the reasons they so smugly think; rather more likely to chasten them in the long run the same way Billy Graham was chastened re Nixon and Watergate decades ago. Remains to be seen whether or not they will ever have the same grace as Billy did to be duly ashamed of themselves in the end.

  • This is more of Trump’s cynicism – he’s just pandering to his base. As for why evangelical Christians – who claim the moral high ground – to endorse a thrice married, serial philander who mocks the disabled and brags about sexual assault – it’s clear their support is not based on theology but some other issue. Which one, God only knows.

  • Just thinking out loud again.
    You know, if I’m right and you’re wrong about God…you’re forked.

    Man I apologize. I just don’t know what comes over me…it’s your fault.

  • And Trump has given indications that he will be blaming Obama for his failings. This tactic is not partisan.

  • You don’t seem to understand any of this! This is about evangelical hypocrisy, which you are doing right in front of our eyes. Bill Clinton was a philanderer, not a serial rapist and sex offender. For years evangelicals screamed that Clinton’s oval office blow job was the trashing of the Presidency. Then they elect Trump, whose admissions amount to acknowledgement of a criminal sex offense of rape, and Evangelicals tell us it is ok. In fact, most of your filthy leadership says that God actually chose Trump!

    Trump’s sexual sins far outweigh Clinton’s, and you terrible human beings elected him in spite of it. You scream and preach against gays and lesbians and divorcees and then you elect this rapist. Every single thing you say about morals and God is absolute hypocrisy and garbage! Unbelievable!!!!

    And when we point to this sin, you go “but Clinton”. You hypocrite. Because of this incredibly sick and apostate hypocrisy, we have in front of us the most blatant evidence that Evangelicals are some of the most horrible immoral sexual sickos imaginable. Such evil human beings could care less about sexual ethics. You want power. That is all you want, and damn the Gospel. You are some of the most terrible, evil, and depraved human beings in this nation.

    God will not sit for this. Do you really think that there will not be punishment? The sins just keep coming and coming and coming. Evangelicals are drowning in sin and evil. This hypocrisy makes a mockery of Christianity and God.

  • It is my opinion that NK released him because of his medical condition; they didn’t want him to die in their custody. They have not responded to requests to release the other American captives.

  • As an evangelical myself going on 50 years, I say that the evangelicals supporting Trump come hell or high water have sold their souls to the Golden Cow (see Exodus 32 – 34), taking the Name of the Lord in vain as they foolishly declare God’s favor on Donald Trump. Well yes, maybe the Lord did intervene in some way to have him elected, but it may not have been for the reasons they so smugly think; rather more likely to chasten them in the long run the same way Billy Graham was chastened re Nixon and Watergate decades ago. Remains to be seen whether or not they will ever have the same grace as Billy to be duly ashamed of themselves in the end.

  • God is love when he punishes and kills innocents? what kind of a murderous religion to you cleave to?
    Define sexual immorality. I think your answer will reveal just who and what you are.

  • Yep. A liberal supreme Court defends civil liberties and constitutional principles.

    A conservative one merely rubber stamps monied interests and discrimination.

    Somehow conservative “deeply held beliefs” entail attacking people and avoiding rule of law.

  • Evangelicals sold out and continue to defecate upon any notion of care for moral principles and concern for people who work for a living.

    Because secular progressive politics was the worst thing in the world. OMG equal protection under the law and concern for people who aren’t just the uppermost wealthy! How horrible! /s

  • Sorry, but that doesn’t explain. The ENTHUSIASTIC support of Trump right now by Bible thumpers.

    But don’t feel too bad all you guys did was make obvious what most already knew about conservative Christians. They are hypocritical immoral tools for miscreants.

    All you have demonstrated is the kind of dishonest mental gymnastics required to feel at ease for such bad choices.

    Nobody has to give a crap what you think of Obama and the Clintons. Their gone. Trumps support by people like you is the subject.

  • But they love him now! What is your excuse for that? Oh wait you have avoided it incessantly for over a day.

  • Osama Bin Laden dead, defusing the Iranian nuclear poker game, climate change accords. Not bad for a president with a hostile Congress.

    All Trump did is get G20 members to avoid personal contact with him, enabled a blockade of Qatar, burned allied anti ISIS intelligence assets, a gonad measuring contest with North Korea and offend the Japanese first lady. That was in the last 3 months.

    Hillary was a terrible secretary of state, but she was smart enough to rely on experts and analysts. Trump is such a professional ethical hazard that no experts want to work for him. He can’t fill positions with qualified people. Educated and skilled people rightfully despise him.

  • What are you talking about? What facts revealed? There were none. Heaven knows conservatives,kept digging. They came up empty. It’s all insinuation.

    Trump is not qualified to be a political leader. He has zero skills at all as a president. It’s not a learn as you go job.

    The man has no clue how his position works. Worse still, he is such a malicious and mendacious person, he can’t get any reasonable or knowledgeable people to work with him. He wasn’t even an adequate businessman.

    It’s not that Trump can’t put up a fake front. it’s all he ever does. There is nothing genuine to him. There is nothing remotely honest or intelligent about the guy.

    Your excuses for him are pathetic. I guess dishonest unintelligent cretins have to stick together.

  • Nope. Both of you are full of it. Trump’s Twitter feed is the most comprehensive satire of his presidency. The man compulsively creates bad press for himself.

  • I, too, do not look up to Trump, but with the choice between HRC and DT I chose the lesser of the two evils. But this world is not our home. Jesus said in John 18:36 “My kingdom is not of this world.” We are to be good citizens, yes, but our first allegiance is to Jesus Christ.

  • Really? god said that Jimmy carter was the worst president until OBama? God seems to be a conservative Christian.

    Let’s talk about Reagan. In his administration, 14 million jobs were created in a record 70 month time period of uninterrupted growth. He reduced the annual deficit he inherited from Carter by a trillion dollars, even AFTER putting two undeclared wars back on the books, where they had been relegated as they drained our treasury. And the stock market nearly tripled.

    KIDDDDDINNNNNNNNNGGGGGGG! That was Obama.

  • Do you mean the bush that handed Obama the worst depression since 1930? The Bush that handed him two undeclared, off-the books wars that drained our treasury, lied about our debt and deficit, and destroyed our prestige in the world?

    Oh, and the public schools are just indoctrination centers.

    Of course you love Trump.

  • Actually Spud, liberal “christians” are constantly saying “God says you must vote my way.” – abortion.

  • it’s one of the things that make the Abrahamic religions so weird.
    In the Hindu religion you go to ‘worship’ to look in the god’s eyes,
    for that God to SEE you as an individual person, worthy, good, fully human.

  • Hint: just google search abbreviations (eg. Rofl). Don’t ask what they mean or you’re likely to get a smart aleck remark in return.

  • Show me “god demands you vote …” rhetoric with abortion from the news or public statements by people you consider the religious left.

  • I usually do. But sometimes I get to meet good people like Edward. Snarky replies and put-downs are petty. Everyone learns in their own way.

  • someone mentioned the supreme court ruling and how one needs to follow that. thy turned the Supreme court into God.

  • the Christian indoctrination of my childhood revulsed me. I was never a Christian. The catty comment stands. Your own words indict you.

  • If Christian beliefs revulsed you in childhood and you never were a Christian, why did you go to theology school? If that’s sounds catty to you, I give up trying to have a conversation with you. Are you really that cynical that you can’t accept an honest comment?

  • Hubbard’s belief in Satanism and association with LeVey is documented. You don’t have to believe it. Why is it important to you to believe that he wasn’t?

  • When does God punish and kill innocents, in your opinion?
    Sexual immorality is sexual behavior which falls outside the parameters of what God has defined as His will for men and women.

  • Your view of SCOTUS, which I do not share. We have completely different views, as is to be expected.

    Your last statement is completely false. Conservatives are the ones who are concerned about the Constitution and following the rule of law.

    Christians’ deeply held beliefs are not about attacking people, but are about right and wrong. A Bible-believing Christians does not believe in calling evil good and good evil. Just the opposite.

  • If you could make genuinely true statements without all the hate, it would be much easier to dialogue with you. False accusations and hateful insults are not conducive to real, productive conversation.

    The Clintons are completely relevant because they would be in the White House if Trump weren’t. Obama’s administration (and others) are also relevant because of the article’s title, which is not accurate.

  • I’ve been speaking of Christians whom I actually know. Are you expecting me to make excuses for people I don’t even know? How irrational is that???

  • I have not made excuses for him. I don’t admire him. I admire slick politicians whose lies come out later (a la’ Benghazi) even less.

  • Are you actually saying that you never knew that Chris Matthews said that? If so, where on earth were you then? In a coma somewhere?

  • Full of facts, yes. You won’t see me denying facts about Trump like you deny facts about Obama and Hillary.

  • No, there are leaders less ethical than he. The Clintons and Pelosi and Reid come to mind.

  • One thing is certain: Tillerson made the effort while Obama did not — although the young man’s family begged him to.
    The words of that young man’s father (who did not vote for Trump) were very revealing.

  • “Conservatives are the ones who are concerned about the Constitution and following the rule of law.”

    Hence attempts to circumvent anti discrimination laws, various court rulings, attacks on judicial review and independent judiciary. /sarcasm

    “Christians’ deeply held beliefs are not about attacking people”

    Unless atheists, other faiths, the religious left, gays, pregnant women, and those who value the first amendment

    Respect for the lives and beliefs of others never factors into your political views.

  • See a doctor about that memory formation issue. It seems to prevent you from saying relevant things about topics on hand.

    It’s like I am talking to Guy Pearce’s character in Memento.

  • “It seems to prevent you from saying relevant things about topics on hand.” Hahahaha! Ha! Haha! Oh man, this is rich. Spuddie is complaining about someone saying irrelevant things! Oh man, that’s hilarious! It’s like Trump complaining about cyber bullying! Wow, this is good stuff.

  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterograde_amnesia
    Sorry buddy, but when someone brings up people who are long out of the political relevancy as a knee jerk reaction to criticism of our current leader or current events, they do not need to be taken seriously. They are pathetic deflectors.

    Do you have an opinion of your own or do you just want to follow me around and sniff my wide hostess cake laden flatulent posterior like a golden retriever?

  • Trump is far worse than any of the politicians you mention. It is astonishing that conservative religious people cannot grasp that.

  • Oh, I’m not defending Claire. I’m just saying that you objecting to her comment on the basis that it is irrelevant and deflecting creates a pot and kettle situation.

    P.S. Don’t flatter yourself. I don’t follow you around; we frequent the same website.

  • Iany people go to theology school who are not Christian for the study of religion. The one I attended had a Jewish seminary next to it.

    If you read my posts, you will see that I went into ministry to serve others. Christian pastoral care was the template and that is what I studied in preparation to serve. Why do you assume the worst about people you post with??

  • the GOP has succeeded in wiping your brain clear of any sense and filled it with hatred of Democrats. What a waste of a mind, your time–and mine.

  • Obama’s megalomania. How backwards.
    It Trump doesn’t stage a government takeover it’ll be a ‘miracle’.

  • 13 hours the GOP hacks grilled her….and THEY ended up saying the whole Inquisition was done for political reasons. you are obsessed with hate.
    Do christians hate?? I guess, judging by you.
    Do Christians give False Witness. You demonstrate that they do.

2019 NewsMatch Campaign: This Story Can't Wait! Donate.

ADVERTISEMENTs