An open Bible. Photo courtesy of Creative Commons/Pixabay

What is wrong with white Christians?

(RNS) — What is wrong with white Christians?

This isn’t meant to simply be a provocative question. A new survey from The Washington Post and the Kaiser Family Foundation offers the latest dispiriting news about the troubling state of white Christianity.

Christians, the study found, are more than twice as likely to blame a person’s poverty on individual failings than Americans who are atheist or have no specific religious affiliation. White evangelical Christians, who voted overwhelmingly for President Trump and continue to be some of his most steadfast supporters, are especially wedded to this worldview. Half of white Catholics also cited lack of effort — read: laziness — rather than difficult circumstances as the primary reason why people are poor. Less than a third of African-American Christians agree.

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White Christians are also oblivious or in denial when it comes to the reality of racism and discrimination, according to data from the Public Religion Research Institute. Pernicious stereotypes about race and poverty, of course, are two sides of the same coin. While 57 percent of Americans acknowledge significant levels of racism against black people, PRRI found, those numbers were dramatically different for white Christians. Only 36 percent of white evangelicals and 47 percent of white Catholics reported perceiving discrimination against African-Americans. Partisan affiliation has the most significant influence on these attitudes about race and poverty, but religious identity is also a key factor.

“Perceptions of Discrimination Against Black People by Religious Affiliation.” Graphic courtesy of PRRI


 This image is available for web and print publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

There are complex theological, cultural and political reasons behind these numbers that scholars can dissect with academic detachment. But at a fundamental level, there is a crisis at the heart of white Christianity. The dark-skinned Jesus who preached justice to those in the shadow of an empire would likely not recognize many of his nominal followers today. 

Too many white Christians sacrifice the gospel’s radical solidarity with the poor and oppressed with comfortable, self-serving ideologies. Prosperity gospel preachers affirm the cult of consumerism and individualism. Evangelicals rally behind political leaders who make a holy trinity out of tax cuts for the wealthy, attacks on social safety nets and anti-government propaganda. A majority of the descendants of white Catholic immigrants once feared and loathed in this country voted for a president who ran on an explicitly nativist message.

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In this upside-down world, white Christians can justify taking away health care coverage from struggling families and blindly worship the false idol of “trickle-down” economic theories that Pope Francis has rightly called a “crude” and “naïve” fantasy. Climate change that already displaces the most vulnerable around the world is denied or blithely dismissed as liberal hyperventilating.

A strain of American Christianity has always been interwoven with a secular creed of “rugged individualism.” Work hard and sacrifice, the dogma goes, and you will reap rewards both material and spiritual. Growing up, Donald Trump imbibed the sugary, self-help messages of his pastor, Norman Vincent Peale, author of the best-selling book “The Power of Positive Thinking.”

A forerunner to later prosperity preachers, Peale preached a convenient gospel that the ambitious found alluring. The wealthy deserved to be rich. Individuals create their own destiny. There is no room in this narcissistic religion of the self for a sober analysis of social sin. It’s one thing to acknowledge personal moral failings as inherent to the human condition. It takes a cognitive leap from the personal to the systemic to understand how institutions and structures also must be redeemed. “When I feed the poor, they call me a saint,” the late Brazilian Bishop Dom Hélder Câmara once said. “When I ask why the poor are hungry, they call me a communist.”

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Structures and institutions are sinful when they perpetuate inequality and injustice. “People aren’t poor because they are sinners,” Noel Castellanos of the Christian Community Development Association tweeted recently. “Often people are poor because they are sinned against.”

The fact that child poverty in the U.S. is dramatically higher in the United States than in most industrialized countries has nothing to do with morally deficient children and can’t exclusively be blamed on the flaws of their parents. Personal responsibility matters and culture can influence decisions, but specific policy and political decisions play a far greater role. Before 1965, when President Lyndon Johnson signed Medicare into law, less than half of people over 65 had health insurance and 35 percent lived in poverty. In the program’s first year, more than 19 million people over 65 enrolled and poverty among older and disabled Americans decreased by nearly two-thirds.

Churches and pastors need not become sociologists or partisan cheerleaders to begin waking up white Christian America. The Hebrew prophets and Jesus stood on the side of the powerless. Those under the yoke of Pharaoh found God’s favor. If Christianity doesn’t challenge the status quo and recover its prophetic edge, the Rev. Martin Luther King reminded us, it will become an “irrelevant social club.” White Christians have much to repent for, but the work of reparation and seeking justice can begin now. 

 (John Gehring is Catholic program director at Faith in Public Life and author of “The Francis Effect: A Radical Pope’s Challenge to the American Catholic Church”)

Comments

  1. I’m not really surprised at the results. What would have been really enlightening is if we could have gotten the definition used for racism and for that matter poverty. Then of course social psychology plays a large part in this as well.

    Humanity since its beginning has not made any real headway towards a righteous society. In fact I will go as far as stating we are dealing with the same problems and issues since the dawn of time. We would like to think we have progressed, but we are no different from any past civilization. It’s all very discouraging.

  2. I am curious whether the high number for Jehovah’s Witnesses on perceiving “a lot” of racism is related to theology or ethnicity, or both. According to the Pew studies, 27% of US JWs are black. That is the highest number of any group other than Historically Black Protestant or Muslim.

  3. “What is wrong with white Christians?”Off the top of my head:
    1. A sense of entitlement far out of proportion to their skills, experience and resources

    2. Bigotry has always been a useful tool in getting them to support measures which attack their own interests

    3. The anti-intellectualism which has always been endemic to America. The educated are ridiculed, the cretinous are extolled.

  4. What wrong with white Christians?

    The poor little dears are oppressed, of course. Both as white people, and as Christian. And if they are heterosexual males white Christians, they are super duper extra double icky oppressed.

  5. What is wrong with Christmas in general?

    Xmas, the embellished story of the birth of a simple, preacher man named Jesus.

    As per most contemporary NT exegetes, Jesus’ parents were Mary and Joseph although some say Jesus was a mamzer, the result of a pre-marital relationship between Mary and a Roman soldier.

    http:// http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

    Jesus was not born in Bethlehem at least the one we are familiar with and there were no pretty wingie thingies singing/talking from on high, no slaughter of the innocents by Herod, no visiting wise men and no escape to Egypt.

    “Mark’s gospel, the most historical of the four gospels, does not even mention the event.

    And from Professor Gerd Ludemann in his book, Jesus After 2000 Years, pp. 269-272, “The historical yield of the Lukan infancy narrative in respect to the birth of Jesus is virtually nil.

    Matt 1:18-25: , pp. 123-124, “The fathering of Jesus from the Holy Spirit and his birth from the virgin Mary are unhistorical”. Ludemann gives a very detailed analysis to support his conclusions. One part being the lack of attestations to these events and the late time strata of said story.

    “Lüdemann [pp. 261-63) discounts Luke’s account as a legend deriving from Jewish Hellenistic circles that were concerned to hold together the procreation of the Spirit, the authentic sonship of the Messiah and the virginal conception. ”

    Then there are these additional conclusions:

    Professor Bruce Chilton

    “In [Rabbi Jesus: An Intimate Biography] (2000), Chilton develops the idea of Jesus as a mamzer; someone whose irregular birth circumstances result in their exclusion from full participation in the life of the community. He argues for the natural paternity of Joseph and finds no need for a miraculous conception. In his subsequent reconstruction of Jesus’ life, Chilton suggests that this sustained personal experience of exclusion played a major role in Jesus’ self-identity, his concept of God and his spiritual quest.

    Professor John Dominic Crossan

    “In [Historical Jesus] (p. 371) Crossan treats this cluster, like 007 Of Davids Lineage, as an example of the interplay of prophecy and history in the development of the Jesus traditions.

    “In [Birth of Christianity] (pp. 26-29) Crossan uses Luke’s account of Jesus’ conception and birth to explore ethical issues concerning the public interpretation of the past. He notes the tendency of Christian scholars to disregard “pagan” birth legends while investing great effort in the defence of biblical birth narratives. He concludes:

    I do not accept the divine conception of either Jesus or Augustus as factual history, but I believe that God is incarnate in the Jewish peasant poverty of Jesus and not in the Roman imperial power of Augustus. ”

    “The following ancient parallels to Jesus’ miraculous conception should be noted:

    Birth of Moses (Exod 2:1-10)
    Birth of Plato (Diogenes Laertius, Lives of Eminent Philosophers, 3.45) [see Acts of Jesus, p. 507]
    Birth of Alexander the Great (Plutarch, Parallel Lives, 2.1-3.5) [see Acts of Jesus, p. 502f]
    Birth of Apollonius (Philostratus, Life of Apollonius, I.4) [see Acts of Jesus, p. 505]”

    And some final words from Thomas Jefferson, not a contemporary NT scholar, but indeed a very learned man:

    “And the day will come,
    when the mystical generation of Jesus,
    by the Supreme Being as His Father,
    in the womb of a virgin,
    will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva”

    Letter to John Adams, from Monticello, April 11, 1823.

    Conclusion: Christmas is historically a non-event. Ditto for the Feast of the Magi and the solemnity of Mary aka New Years day.

  6. I guess it’s a good thing I’m not a white Christian. I’m a white person with a relationship with Jesus Christ, and there is a huge difference. All this article is doing is stirring up even more hatred and division, as per the other comments below. Ben and Spuddie, I pray that find Jesus and learn to love. Jesus can show you the way.

  7. Social gentrification keeps a lot of white Catholics from interacting with the poor. A complacent gentrification rules. For many, religion has become about ethics and morality and not transformation in Christ. Sad that Catholics have by and large ignored Pope Francis’s transformative message.

  8. The article is an interesting summary but the lead study only surveyed Americans so the title of the article is misleading– unless you intentionally ignore white people around the world.

  9. Thank you for this piece. It’s emotionally difficult but absolutely necessary for White “Christian” America to start confronting what it truly believes.

  10. How dare you!! I guess if you don’t have anything else to say, attack!

    I have no interest in “finding Jesus”. When Christians of a certain sort stop claiming they found Jesus and start acting like it, do let me know.

    I tried that nearly 50 years ag. It fell short, especially the inherent contradiction of John 3:16.

    As for learning to love? The spiritual arrogance of your type of Christian never ceases to amaze me. When Christians of a certain sort stop claiming they found Jesus and start acting like it, do let me know.

    Oh. I said that already.

  11. “What is wrong with white Christians”, brother John Gehring, “Catholic program director at Faith in Public Life and author of ‘The Francis Effect: A Radical Pope’s Challenge to the American Catholic Church'”?

    That’s easy, I know that one.

    “What is wrong with white Christians” is what’s wrong with “The Francis Effect: A Radical Pope’s Challenge to the American Catholic Church”.

    NOTHING. (I mean, everything.)

  12. “I will pray for you”

    Christianspeak for “go —- yourself”

  13. When people say they aren’t Christian they just follow Christ they are Christians. You can say all day you follow Christ or you are a Christ follower or you hang with Jesus whatever you want to say but you are still a Christian . The arrogance of Christians these days….

  14. What is wrong with White Christians? no no it should be …What is wrong with religious people in general !!

  15. More nonsense from the school of resentment.

  16. And what about non-religious people? What is wrong about them-in general?

  17. How many times do I have to tell you: I’m not white – I’m beige. Lol.

  18. So sjw John when are you going to write the following articles:
    What’s wrong with brown Christians?
    What’s wrong with yellow Christians?
    What’s wrong with red Christians?
    What’s wrong with atheists?
    What’s wrong with gays?
    What’s wrong with the poor?
    Oh I almost forgot! What’s wrong with prog libs?

    Never? Got it, John.

  19. This is clearly commentary (as stated) and not news, and is somewhat lacking in objectivity. There are some hardbitten, goofball and unreflective characteristics within the “white” Christian community in America, but perhaps not less so in other cultural subsets of the American Church.
    There is room for spiritual growth and maturity, but that is more apt to happen under hardship than in comfort, it has ever been the way, here or anywhere else. Personal responsibility does matter, as well as initiative, but many people born on third base, crow “I’ve hit a home run,” when they cross Home plate. Many Americans have risen from poverty to wealth, many who are wealthy end up in poverty. As the author rightly points out, there are great complexities involved, but his tone is not helpful, it smacks of supercilious condescension (a tendency, no doubt, he would attribute to others.

  20. There is occasionally a bit of wheat separated from the chaff.

  21. A very sharp eye, as well as an interesting question. As the author notes, there are a number of complexities involved.

  22. It’s Rosanna Rosanna Danna! Lol! When I first saw the title I thought it said What’s wrong with a white Christmas? Lol! And I had a one word answer- nothing. And I thought the author was Scrooge. Lol.

  23. Edward, as a Christian I can only say, I’ve never been able to tickle myself.
    I’m not sure what the—-you were thinking he meant?

  24. I’m gonna throw some Bible at you and Ben, this is something I see and hear you guys doing all the time with your post. I’ll paraphrase Romans 12:9-13.
    Love must be sincere. Hate evil, cling to good. Be devoted to others. Honor others above yourself. Never lack in zeal, be joyful, patient, and faithful. Lend me your lawn mower when mine brakes down, I owe you a beer when I return it.
    That’s who I hear and read on here. Of course the very next verse says-Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. Hey what the hell, baby steps…heathens. 😉

  25. To me there’s two very distinct definitions to the label Christian.

    One based on religion the other on faith. That’s not to say that religious Christians don’t have a faith based relationship with Jesus or that people of faith can’t be religious. But it’s more about what they focus more on, either belonging to a religion and the community that comes with it, or having and developing a personal relationship with Jesus.

    And I think that was what Shawn Akers meant with the post. I also think it’s possibly the source of some of the behavior that prompts the question what’s wrong with “White Christians”. There’s an old saying “Sunday Christians” that refers to some people who are dutiful about all the trappings of being a Christian, going to church, tithing, etc, but seem to forget to live by all the teachings of Jesus in their day to day lives. They can talk the talk, but fail to walk the walk.

    More importantly this isn’t unusual for long lived institutions. People become attracted to belonging over the original mandate. How many politicians would you say really get into politics because they want to serve the public good? At a country’s inception I’d say the majority do. But as time goes on more and more seem to see it as a quick route to fulfill goals that have nothing to do with governing the citizenry well. All I’m suggesting is the same can be said about religious institutions.

  26. I’d say most of that applies to me most of the time.

    I’d like to write more, but I have to leave my hotel shortly. Maybe later.

  27. This is a very good article. It could have spelled out more what follows our ‘rugged individualism.’ The Republican mantra ‘We did it’ is what naturally results from that kind of individualism. It is also a lie, but it shows the kind of recognition some are making a claim too.

    But, again, the article is very good and an important read. It is basically asking why do White Christians, like myself, suffer blindness in the certain situations. And with the claim to rugged individualism comes tribalism. Yes, even those with such a strong belief in rugged individualism have circled the wagons because they feel under attack. And here they are like the pharisees whom Jesus corrected who were blind but became accountable because they cliamed to be able to see.

  28. Sweeping moral judgements about “White Christians” carry no more weight than sweeping moral judgements about “Catholic Priests.” This is such a tired narrative, as this author knows nothing about me, my family, or my church. To suggest that one’s support of certain government programs (and political parties) defines ones morality is pathetically infantile, naïve, and ignorant of the complexity of the many factors contributing to situations affecting individuals and families. This is just more political propaganda masquerading as moral authority. And yes, I will roll with Dr. Martin Luther King who said, “Work hard, study hard, and do your job so that no man, dead or alive, could do it better. If you sweep streets, sweep them like Michelangelo.”

  29. So, you can “attack,” which you did vehemently, but I try to say something with love attached, and you take it the wrong way? That’s interesting. My question for you is, your post wasn’t an “attack” on White Christians? I will still continue to pray for unity and love among all men. Only Jesus can heal the divide. You can insult me all you want, but as a person, I still love you.

  30. Allen, you are certainly right, and there are “Christians” who are very arrogant. There is no denying that. They don’t have the love of God in them, and I see it every day and I know that you do, too. I understand your thoughts and feelings, and it’s disheartening because I feel the same way. Just like any other religion, you can hide behind Christianity. That’s why you must have a relationship with Jesus.

    But my post was said in love, and as I told Ben, no matter what insults are thrown my way, I will continue to love you as a person. That’s the way Jesus did it. They hurled insults at him, but on the cross, he said, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.” That’s what being a follower of Christ is all about–forgiveness and grace. Grace and peace be with you today. I pray that you are blessed.

  31. “I guess it’s a good thing I’m not a white Christian. I’m a white person with a relationship with Jesus Christ, and there is a huge difference.”

    That’s what all Christians say. Kinda sad when people can’t even own up to being a member of a religion they’re clearly part of.

  32. Now you are trying to pretend a passive aggressive remark was something beneficent. Your initial post was simply showing annoyance that white Christians were being criticized.

    You directed your remarks at posters who were the most direct and unsparing in voicing their criticism.

    Nobody reads your desire for others to find Jesus as a genuinely friendly gesture. It is read and was intended as a kiss off. As it usually is in these situations
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2011/11/ill-pray-for-you/

  33. So white Christians practice what all human beings practice – confirmation bias. Gravitate toward data that supports your existing dogmas. Welcome to earth. This is what humans do.

    So why single white Christians out for doing what all human beings do?

  34. I guess I fall somewhere in the middle on this. On the one hand, we are called to show mercy for the poor, but on the other, we’re not call to be doormats for people who refuse to change or take responsibility for themselves. Frankly, I see both things happening in the church today.

    To the extent Christians in a position to give are simply being selfish towards those in need, they should remember Jesus’ repeated admonishments to give to the poor and to help the widow and the orphan. That’s part of what it means to be a follower of Christ. However, to the extent that others are simply asking for a handout with no responsibility on their part to change their life or condition, those people should recall this from MT 7:6, “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast. ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them. under their feet, and turn again and rend you”; and 2 TH 3:10, `If any man will not work, do not let him eat.’

  35. Those who’ve read my posts know full well I’m more than a little bit sick & tired of all the fake Christians and their un/anti-Christian dogma. Both Grahams, Falwell Jr., 45’s “spiritual advisor” in TX, my so called SBC preacher brother and the whole lot of Calvinists don’t have a clue when it comes to the teachings of The Christ. Bottom line they are not Christians and are Calvinists/Dominionists. There were excellent Biblical reasons the Church of England recognized the heretical, blasphemous, & sacrilegious beliefs/behavior of this cult which in turn leads straight to idolatry by placing the KJV above God and then placing their “preachers” above the Bible.

    They should, but will not, study the rationale of the Danbury Baptist Church’s behind its letter to Thomas Jefferson calling for an absolute separation of church & state. These fake Christians are advocating for a US Theocracy effectively no different than the one in Saudi Arabia.

  36. I appreciate the sentiments here but would add that the problem is much broader than with merely white Christians.

  37. Your scholarship is not the object of my worship.

  38. Why is it that when “Christians of a certain sort” use scripture to judge and condemn they are “speaking the truth in love,” but when non-believers make legitimate complaints about the hypocrisy of people who claim Christ it is an attack? As a Christian that offends me.

  39. You’ve spent a lot of words on these posts to address that itssue.

  40. Clearly I have too much time on my hands. But then you’ll notice they are posted at different times, too.

  41. Philippians was written as recently as 20-30 years after Jesus’ death and Philippians 2 clearly refers to Jesus’ divinity. The idea was clearly being expressed at a time when people who would have personally known Jesus were still alive. It’s not some late addition. In fact, some scholars believe that Philippians 2:5-11 was in fact an even earlier hymn that was inserted into the epistle and so predates the epistle itself, bringing us even closer to the life of Jesus. Many of these early witnesses were persecuted under emperors such as Claudius (d. 54AD) and Nero (d. 68AD) and went to their deaths proclaiming ideas about the divinity of Jesus.

    In my thinking, I have a hard time believing that people who would have been eye witnesses to Jesus and his crucifixion would have suffered persecution for a set of beliefs about him that they knew to be a fabricated fraud. I concede, however, that we all have to look at the evidence and come to our own conclusions. At the very least, I personally believe their witness is at least as credible as that of people writing 1700-2000 years later trying to piece the story together from scraps and fragments of other writings.

    I also believe that the fact that no contemporary source confirms the birth of Jesus doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. What contemporary author would have written about the birth of a seemingly out of wedlock child born to a carpenter and a young girl in some backwater outpost of the empire? I have no doubt that certain aspects of the story as written are clearly literary and meant to highlight certain symbolic points, as was the literary custom at the time, but again I see no reason to doubt the essentials of the story while at the same time appreciating what the symbolism is trying to say, just as I would with any other written work.

    In the end, no one knows for sure, and I don’t deny that other people can look at the evidence and come to different conclusions.

  42. One wonders what the reaction would be like if this guy tried a provocative headline like “What’s wrong with black Christians”? It would be equally prejudicial, generalizing and irresponsible.

    Dude, I see you’re a Catholic who’s written a book about Pope Francis. IMHO your time would be better spent focusing your subject expertise on his continuing cover-up of the horrible child abuse that still goes on inside the Catholic Church, and how he’s shuttling criminal priests who have ruined the lives of so many youth to South America and elsewhere. It’s a disgrace, far far worse than the claims you make here.

    Mr. Gehring has an agenda, and it’s a divisive one. “Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”

    All praise and glory to our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.

  43. And why do you care anyway. If you don’t like what I write don’t read what I write.

  44. Well, its never been denied that there are parallel claims outside of the witness of the Jewish and Chrisitian scriptures for the phenomena they describe. Nor does scripture claim to be the only source of the stories it selects to put forth for the instruction and encouragement of the community of believers it addresses.

    In fact it occasionally lays side-by-side competing details of the same stories, for instance, the two creation stories told in Genesis 1 and 2 and the different takes on similar stories of the Chronicles and Kings. It also occasionly reminds the reader that these stories are handed down from past times and gathered for a particular purpose, such as Luke’s opening stated methodology and purpose.

    It also certainly uses various stories in different contexts for different purposes throughout the scriptures. All of this is to address believers and to allow us to hear the revelation of God behind and through the text.

    But to start out assuming that the witnesses (whether eye-witness or not) is proof that the stories are “made up” and therefore unfactual and therefore unreliable fairytales, isn’t that also circular reasoning that so many sceptics accuse believers of using in affirming the truths of the Bible? That is, to say 1) the witnesses are unreliable, “how do you know” 2) because the stories are made up, “how do you know” 3) because there are parallel stories of the same eras “but there are differences in the stories” 4)which makes the witnesses unreliable.

    The problem is proving the stories wrong. I’m not talking about proving a negative, but proof from the eras covered that the witnesses themselves were unreliable by the testimony of those who knew them. One might say that’s impossible because the people are so obscure. And the obscurity and insignificance of the witnesses within the society around them underscores the power of the text that has emerged in the world as a major influence on many a major society. Something, other than illusion and deception, is going on. That is, in part, why the scriptures ring true in my ears and direct me toward a mind set on transformation within.

  45. My point was not how much time was spent but the fact that copious words have been written on these posts, by many Christians, on the question you raised. In fact, the subject has been all but exhausted.

  46. I don’t recall mentioning whether I like what you write. Sometimes it’s irritating to me, sometimes it challenges my own thinking, sometimes I agree. I’m just being part of the conversation.

  47. Tis all about rigorous historic testing:

    Professor JD Crossan and other contemporary NT scholars have rigorously reviewed all the NT passages using the modern techniques of number of attestations, time strata and archeology to determine passage authenticity. A summary of Professor Crossan’s studies and conclusions (only 30% of the NT is authentic) can be found in his book, The Historic Jesus and at http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php?t-itle=Crossan_Inventory. Other
    studies of Professor Crossan and plus those of other exegetes can also be found
    at http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/intro.html. Professor Gerd Ludemann’s
    studies and conclusions can found in his book, Jesus After 2000 Years. He
    summarizes the authentic NT passages on pp. 694-695 (significantly less than
    30% authentic)

  48. What is wrong with PEOPLE…not just Christians…not just whites?

    If there is one thing Christians understand, it is that every single human being who has walked Earth, except one, is sinful. Only Jesus was without sin.

    Bigotry, judgement, superiority… just about everything about humanity is flawed–within all races, all Faiths. That is why God sent His Son.

  49. I would imagine the day that there’s something statistically significant about those sub-groups in reference to biblical hypocrisy.

  50. That’s the first fair critique of the article I’ve seen.

  51. It may also be cultural. JWs are something of a repressed minority within the Christian community. That would likely tend to cause them to see bigotry elsewhere.

  52. I’m not sure about the doormat comment. Jesus pretty much taught that exact thing. The idea that wealth has no meaning, or more accurately nothing material has meaning, is pretty central to NT thought.

  53. That first sentence would make more sense in this context if there wasn’t a very clear distrinction in belief systems between the sub-groups. The data is pretty clear that there is something very wrong with American White Christians in a biblical sense.

  54. Nope, it’s ALL you white Christians’ fault. Totally. Everything is your fault every day. Especially if you actually trust and obey your Bibles.

    (What? You thought the Bible photograph at the top of this RNS article was an accident or something? Heh!!)

    So all you Bible-believing white Christians out there are all messed up, plus everything is all your fault anyway, so you better git on board the train — the LIBERAL train — no matter how many lives it has derailed!!

  55. How would you know unless your prog lib sjw’s tell you.

  56. But you singled me out sooooo…what’s up with that?
    And I too am just trying to be part of the conversation.

  57. Because I can read? He presented the raw data in the article.

  58. Lies, damned lies, and statistics…Mark Twain
    And so you believe everything you read?

  59. I like Crossan. His writings are very provocative and I have learned a lot through his work, but there are other scholars just as principled and open-minded as he, who credibly critique his works and come up with other conclusions, Luke Timothy Johnson comes to mind. My point is regardless of the rigor of scholarship there are at this point, due to lack of extant resources, much that is unknowable about those things, plus, things like resurrection, miracles, etc. can only be passed on by those who have seen or experienced them since they are experiential impossible to duplicate. It doesn’t mean they don’t happen, nor are they really the point as much as the truths that they reveal about God.

    Except for resurrection which is an ongoing experience in the believer that generates successive transformation within.

  60. I believe math and statistics over personal testimonials on a blog, at any rate 🙂

  61. There is something very wrong with every single human alive today. Human frailty exists in organizations because they exist in humans. Claiming that any group of humans is more guilty of human frailty than any other group is necessarily hubristic.

  62. Not sure that logically follows. For that to be true, you also could not claim that any group of humans is less guilty of human frailty than any other group, which is patently false. Even on a meta-level that doesn’t work.

  63. Especially if they support your bias.
    Got it.
    ?

  64. No, in general. I’m pretty open to new data. I haven’t seen any data that contradicts these findings, however.

  65. I read all the posts. I responded to several of them. I was provoked to a response by your statement. I have often responded to your posts, as well as many others, as well as you have responded to my posts directly. You have even joined in the conversations I had been having with others, just as I have done. I think its just the dynamic of the ongoing conversation. I have too much time on my hands, too, apparently.

    My oft terse responses are just that I am being matter of fact about the subject. Sometimes I also like to say things to see how a person may respond which sometimes gives me more to think about, reconsider, or think of ways I could better express what I want to say.

    I also learn things about others, which to me is interesting, especially when it takes me down a notch in my own sense of self-fullness.

  66. As always, with regard to establishing moral heirarchy, it’s about perspective. Islamists commit atrocities in the West, yet feel entirely justified. The West exports pornographic media into conservative Islamic societies, and feels justified. Who can possibly decide which is worse…or better?

    One incontrovertible fact remains: ALL humans are flawed.

  67. LJT does not use rigorous historic testing in his studies vitiating his conclusions. Btw, Jesus’ “miracles” all fail such testing.

  68. Something of a tautology there. All humans are flawed, but not all humans are equally flawed.

  69. I agree that there are times when there is little moral equivalence. But there is also very little innocence.

  70. I’d also say that comparison fails rather dramatically on the escalation scale. I don’t think any rational individual would allow for the equating of beheading infidels with pornography.

  71. There’s no such thing as innocence, just selective ignorance 🙂

  72. What’s wrong with reading carefully and realizing this article is about Christians, not Christmas?

  73. Waiting for the article titled: “What’s wrong with ISLAM”.

    The faith calls on followers to emulate Mohammad. Mohammad is a documented brutal rapist, abusive slave owner, liar, murderer, theif, and was a pedophile.

    Everything about this man was against natural law.

    If a Muslim can explain to me how Mohammad is a good role model, please let me know. I keep asking people to explain. I get silence.

  74. Much could be said for King David along those lines, as well 🙂

  75. King David was nothing like Mohammad.
    King David repented on the one innocent life he took.
    Mohammad never repented for anything. Mo raped women in front of their husbands. He took many innocent lives. Stole from caravans.

    My favorite was Mohammad would attack people, and when they hit back, he would play the victim card. Just like the democrats and progressives of today.

    Rhysem, you seem cynical of the Judeo-Christian faiths.
    Regardless, I applaud you for your interaction being pleasant.
    Thank you 😀

  76. What about the effects of pornography–its documented tendency to destabilize marriages, families…?

  77. I’m not defending pornography. I’m saying it doesn’t compare to murder.

  78. I think you’re misunderstanding me. It’s not about wealth. It’s about taking responsibility for one’s own sin and recognizing the need for grace and forgiveness. For example, someone who unconditionally supports an alcoholic who refuses to acknowledge his addiction and the consequences of that addiction is called an enabler. Sometimes a person has to hit rock bottom before he can acknowledge his need to change, and I think that in a lot of cases, the best thing for a person is to hit rock bottom. As Christians we are called to be there for that person once he recognizes his sin and need for forgiveness, and to be there with him along on the road to grace. Enabling an unrepentant drunk, however, is “casting pearls before swine.”

  79. “Btw, Jesus’ “miracles” all fail such testing.” Yet, I have seen a few myself, first hand, some even on my behalf.

  80. Rhysem, an unborn baby is innocent. 😛

    Your cynicism is appreciated.
    Damn, now, my own cynicism is kicking in and thinking about original sin. :/

    And yes, we are all flawed, and were doomed to hell.
    Why?
    Because God is just. And we will be judged in the end.
    Our Salvation, is Jesus, who paid our sentence for our failings.
    Yes, Christians still fail as they are human.

  81. I think you missed my point. King David was a flawed prophet, as most prophets are in literature, regardless of faith. I think you also are falling into one of the greatest liberal/progressive traps of all time: You are attempting to apply modern mores to a classical figure or questionable historical accuracy. Democrats and liberals do this all the time, as we recently saw with the dustup over Woodrow Willson.
    .
    What we know of Mohammad and David is of questionable historic veracity to begin with and then to apply modern concepts such as pedophilia to a 6th Century nomadic culture is… ridiculous is the best word I can come up wtih.

  82. Babies are not innocent. It’s why we have baptism.

  83. King David was not considered a prophet.

    King David had a prophet named Nathan.

    Nathan is the one who called David out for sending a military commander to the front lines and then taking his wife. This was David’s great sin. And as I said, David repented.

    Mohammad’s history is easier to track as he was only 15oo years ago. Still, there is a history that can be tracked of King David.

    As I shared with you on another post, I see you as a cynic. Your word of ridiculous reaffirms my perspective.

    Regardless, you are a thinking and expressing yourself. All good. Much better than a lump on a log.

  84. “Wahhh! Boo hoo! White Christians are more concerned with holiness than terestrial things! They aren’t left-wing socialists like me! What is wrong with them?”

    Has it ever occured to you that perhaps poverty DOES, very often, spring primarily from personal choices? What percentage of those on welfare are married? What percentage had children out of wedlock? What percentage has done drugs? What percentage graduated high school?

    Perhaps we should ask what is wrong with Black Christianity, which exhibits some of the highest levels of belief and church attendance, yet also exhibits astronomically disproportionate rates of murder, rape, robbery, and unwed parenting. Or we could ask what is wrong with hispanic Christianity, which often seems to relegate faith to little more than a vessel for advancing socialist economic ideology.

  85. Umm…no, as I said in the second sentence of my reply, “it’s not about wealth.” I’m specifically trying to give you an example that doesn’t necessarily involve material wealth or poverty so that you can understand that my point *DOES NOT* have to do with material wealth.

  86. Your point is taken, I was using the term prophet too broadly. However, the larger point stands. David is a pretty typical archtype in classical literature and so is Mohammad. I’m not sure what other word you would prefer me to use though in reference to “ridiculous.” Applying modern moral standards in reference to pedophilia to a 6th century nomadic warlord… is pretty much that. I’d make the same assessment only any such behavior by an historical figure pre-20th century, to be honest. Pedophilia in the modern sense wasn’t a moral negative until late into the Victorian Age.

  87. Gotcha, it’s why I asked, didn’t want to assume. The context got a bit muddled.

  88. All the searching for the historical Jesus begins with the notion of the unreliability of the Biblical accounts, and then any extra-biblical witness that has any association with Judaism or Christianity.

    So it essence it mounts to circular reasoning. If the biblical writers are the only one’s one has then that’s all you’ve got. Cultural, critical, and historical context and analysis are perfectly fine, but to discount a witness because you want to discount it seems disingenuous scholarship. One would have historically to, with independent witnesses, repudiate successfully the honesty of the witnesses, which I have yet to see.

    One may disbelieve because of lack of evidence. I have no problem with that, but until there is corroboration of the lack of reliability of the witnesses friendly to the notion it is still only a matter of opinion. Historians often disagree with one another’s conclusions.

  89. No, I certainly wouldn’t want people to misunderstand that! I would say as someone whose family has been affected by this, the two issues (poverty and substance abuse) do often travel hand in hand.

  90. My favorite bumber sticker is:
    ” A normal person is somebody you don’t know real well”
    Rhysem, you are not normal. That’s not bad. 😛
    I like you. No, I haven’t figured you out. I would love to have a beer to know you more. Still, time to move on…. Cheers ! !

  91. Christianity brought an end to slavery and child wives to western civilization.

    Sadly, in many faiths slavery and child wives are still common.

    {Rysem, I must add the following, as I think I know where your cynisism will go…
    Yes, I know that the bible actually did not condemn slavery. Christianity’s belief’s is not just the bible. Christ sent down the Holy Spirit. And the Spirit led the christian Church to condemn slavery. }

  92. Citizens of other cultures may disagree with you.

  93. Please tell us about your miracles and the documation that records the events.

  94. His bias is so obvious I wouldn’t trust anything he said.

  95. But maybe part of the problem is that “White Christians” are dissatisfied with the way the Government and our elected leaders are dealing with issues like poverty. I think it’s fair to say that Government programs have failed in some ways. I think a case can be built that they have failed in many ways.

  96. I have no documentation. I will gladly share the stories with you, if you still would like. However, today I don’t have the time. I can write them up later and post them as a reply here. But it may take a few days.

  97. If you are trying to fathom why a narcissistic buffoon like Trump was elected, look no further than this article. Ordinary Americans would rather vote for an idiot like Trump, than that other con artist who campaigned on the identity drivel this author spews.

    The author follows the progressive line of applying the “whiteness” problem to Christianity. It is White Christians who are the root cause and perpetuate poverty and racism. This is evident because White Christians did not vote for Hillary Clinton, the defender of Wall Street. According to the author, to be a real Christian, in the true likeness of Jesus, you must have the appropriate political views. It is not the individual or the Church’s responsibility to care for our fellow man, but rather an all-embracing government, reflecting, of course, the correct views on social justice, equality, and open borders.

    The traditional Christian view that we have injustice and evil because of sin and that we are fallen creatures in a fallen world, is replaced by a truly remarkable revelation: it is “whiteness” problem.

    As a side note, if the Catholic Church can afford to pay a billion dollars in settlements to protect its pedophile priests, maybe it could do a little more materially to alleviate poverty, rather than promoting leftist, political activism.

  98. The survey link at the beginning of the article doesn’t seem to relate to the article as noted. It links to the following:The Health Care Views and Experiences of Rural Americans: Findings
    from the Kaiser Family Foundation/Washington Post Survey of Rural
    America. I would appreciate the correct link. Thank you

  99. It’s not his bias, if there is any. The data is from PRRI.

  100. Christianity did that? Child wives and slavery were prevalent all through the 18/19th Century. Long past the heyday of Christian governmental dominance. The Enlightenment deserves more credit than Christianity does. Hell, technically it’s still legal in Rhode Island so long as the guy is eighteen and has parental consent. As for the second, I actually think the NT was quite progressive on the issue of slavery and women’s rights (minus Paul and Timothy, anyway, and to be fair there’s a fair case for some medieval revisionism in those particular cases). Progressive for the 1/2 century anyway. The OT is a different matter, but I rarely use the OT as a cudgel unless dealing with hardcore biblical inerrant’s .

  101. Why should I believe anything the PRRI pushes out?

  102. Hey, I was being polite! Normally, I answer that one with “Babies aren’t innocent, it’s why the unbaptized ones go straight to hell when they die. At least since Benedict abolished purgatory, anyway!” 🙂

  103. Yeah, there’s a very clear correlation between the two. Not sure which is the causation, but it’s clearly there.

  104. Because they’ve been pretty damn accurate, historically. It’s a social sciences survey though, so even I take it with some grain of salt. However, it’s arguably the second best social science study in the field, second only to Pew. There sample size is always amazing and they survey wording is top notch.

  105. No problem. Include before and photos of you have them.

  106. Who says its accurate? I don’t take social science research seriously.

  107. I don’t either, unless it a major sample, which this is.

  108. Well, I’d like to take this opportunity to apologize to everyone in the world for being a “BEIGE” Christian. I do this because this author convinced me with his social science research that all of society’s ills can be traced back to me personally. And all I can say is “sorry”, I didn’t mean it. It was an accident. I didn’t mean to turn out white…I mean beige. It just happened. See it all started out a long time ago when I was born to sharecroppers in a little Mississippi river town in Georgia just north of South Carolina and south of Alabama. My daddy was in Lousiana for a sharecroppers convention and had left my mamma alone with the rest of my 15 siblings. Well, it so happened that…….

  109. And I still don’t take it seriously. Soc Sci research is notorious for proving by statistics what they set out to prove. LOL

  110. It is indeed. Hence, why there’s really only two major firms that do it well.

  111. I have no reason given the tone of this article to trust them.

  112. Not sure why the tone of the article would influence belief in the data. It’s not even like the data is particularly controversial.

  113. Okay…instead of White Christians…how about if we insert Asian or any minority group. Or how about progressive liberals? Are you okay with that?

  114. If there was statistical value in the subset, yes. I’m actually not sure what you’re trying to say, the data also contains black protestant and several other categories. This isn’t a “race” thing, it’s a demographics thing.

  115. again you are apart of the group you say that you aren’t. Whether you think you aren’t in your own head is different than what reality is saying. That is the point. And no Jesus was a horrible person who supported death of gays, women as property, and slavery. He did so by saying the OT was moral many times and not to mention the part where he condemns everyone who isn’t Christian to hell to burn forever. In your mind you think people see this religion and this Jesus character as love. Maybe you do and maybe the pastor of your church that you dont go to because you aren’t Christian said Jesus is love but people with actual intelligence and sense can see right thru the bull you are preaching. So you can repeat Jesus is love 100x a day just know people see right thru that… And no i dont want anything to do with that violent hateful religion you follow which is just slightly less violent and hateful than Islam.. No thanks you can have it all day i dont want any parts of that pile of mess

  116. No No to me all Christians are the same because they all believe the same book. I dont really care if they are liberal ,conservative ,faith based or Jesus based or circus based or whatever terms and names you want to come up with because they all believe the same book and worship the same violent hateful dangerous God. If Christians actually walked the walked more people would end up dead and more shame condemnation and hatred would consume the world. i don’t want people to be like Jesus because that would mean moe hate and violence. Both the religion of Peace and the religion of love are violent hateful things that do nothing but destroy people while hiding behind ” we have soup kitchen.. i dont care what kind of Christian people label themselves they are all the same!!!

  117. i don’t know.. Help me point out the non religious people who are currently waiting happily for the world to end who also hate gays and others to the point of thinking they all should burn forever because they aren’t like themselves?

  118. Pretty much a hit piece under the guise of analysis. Typical Progressive demonization of those who don’t share their viewpoints on any array of issues. Child poverty in the United States may have to do with many factors beyond the author’s discussion, to include the large number of impoverished children who enter our country every year. The Pope is a kindred spirit to the Liberation Theology Movement that swept through Latin America over the last half-century. The author’s views are consistent with the movement’s principles. All in all, a sad commentary from a so-called Christian.

  119. The vagueness of the poll question diminishes the importance of the survey. One can ‘feel’ that there is a lot of racism, but how is that perception measured? If the same quantitative level of racism is perceived differently by different groups, then what is the utility of the survey?

  120. Dude, you bias is showing.
    One thing I’ve always found funny. How the people who actively “hate” Christians often to come off as ranting about how vile and dangerous all Christians are, without realizing how unhinged they come off.
    You’d be very surprised how many people are Christians and don’t advertize the fact. We don’t all belong to Westborough you know. Some of us are actually reasonable humans, who follow the loving Jesus of the bible, not the hate filled icon some have turned him into, yourself included.

  121. Suzy, Suzy, Suzy. I weep in my heart for you. Sincerely.

  122. Clever…but disingenuous. It was quite evident what his implication was, and Spuddie is both too intelligent and has too much character to sink to that level of scatological remark without being called on it.

  123. Ohhhh, Spuddie! You make me laugh despite myself.

  124. Jesus supported the the OT a book that said gays should be put to death that women were property and that slavery was ok. Slavery is actually never regarded as a bad thing in the NT or OT and gays are told in the NT that they will burn.This Jesus also said that everyone should burn if they didn’t worship him. So if that is the person you regard as loving then your idea of loving is screwed up … Now you said that i hate Christians this is coming from a person who believes that people who arent Christians should burn and worships and loves the thing that wants to destroy people and the world while me myself dont believe violence or punishment of any kind should come to you . Point out the atheist tenant that say that atheist believe that Christians should burn or be killed or shouldn’t have rights? Find the atheist God that atheist worship and love that says it wants to destroy Christians or anyone who doesn’t follow atheism? newsflash you wont be able to find any of that but i can go directly to the words in which Christians believe that are commanded by the God that they love and worship that wants to do horrible things to people. So who is really “hating” here? The person who is critical of anothers belief that wants harm done to all who are different or the person who is critical who want and believes punishment and voielnce should come to another and stands by the thing that does it? Your arrogant behind needs to step off your high horse just for a second and realize im not the one who believes that violence or punishment should come to people who don’t believe as they do… that is you buddy….

  125. The reasons for poverty are complex; the ability of government to fix them are only a partial solution, however. The upside of free market economics is not fantasy, regardless of what the pope says, just as the downside of government central planning is not fantasy. People should be essentially free, with government, the private sector and the faith communities working together. Also, the closer the proximity to the problem, the more effective and more compassionate the solution. That means, in order, neighborhoods, cities, counties, state, and then the big clumsy national government machinery.

  126. Boy are you ever living with some misconceptions.

  127. And how would you know that unless you do research?

  128. Ok so im to assume that Christians dont believe their own religion that they claim to. Got it. I should assume Christians don’t follow their religion…

  129. Come back with some biblical evidence – tomorrow and we’ll talk. Well shoot it is tomorrow. Later today then.

  130. The survey is poorly worded. If the words “a lot,” which is hard to quantify, are removed, I think you would get a much broader consensus that there is discrimination against African Americans.

  131. I agree with this author. I came from this religious background and left it for these reasons. Christianity should be about self-sacrifice, reaching out to others/strangers, empathy and compassion – without arrogant, self assured judgement. In today’s white evangelical churches the message seems to be more about helping people like themselves, feeling good about themselves, self congratulation, selfishness, looking inward spiritually, and getting to heaven. It’s also very self righteously judgmental against the “other” in terms of skin color, socio economic status and insensitive (to say the least!) about the reality of discrimination related to race and gender identity. In sum, I see it as the very opposite of what Jesus preached: a gospel of hope and help directed first and foremost to the poor, in terms of both means and spirit. It’s an odd and extremely dangerous development. They are modern day Phariseees. And, if anyone voted for Trump (I was going to say the GOP) that tells me everything I need to know about them and the state of their spirituality. Really guys? Come on, you really must do better!

  132. I agree, the article is, to say the least, lacking in nuance. Not many Christians think everyone who is poor is morally deficient, and I know a lot of conservative Catholics who take seriously their obligations to help the poor. I’m not a fan of the “prosperity gospel”, but ever-expanding government programs are not always the best way to help the poor. The end result of that type of thinking (and, frankly, of Pope Francis’ thinking) is the current situation in Venezuela.

  133. There is plenty of arrogance in the world, always has been, and it definitely isn’t limited to Christians. In Christian theology arrogance is a moral failing, but none of us are perfect.

  134. Yep, you were polite.
    Yep, thumbs up to Benedict.

  135. I’m 65 years old, an army vet, from Missouri. I’ve been a school teacher for 35 years so I’ve worked with the gummit; with all due respect this leads me to trust you even less. ;-D

  136. That’s a sad commentary. I don’t understand where this distrust started, but it has certainly become rampant in the past 10 years or so.

  137. Put it in historical context. Mark Twain said the only truly native criminal class is congress. I am part of the boomer/viet nam “war” generation and we don’t trust the “gummit” for good reason.

  138. Jim, at least you’re taking an objective approach to the subject. Allen & a couple of others on here are obviously quite subjective & lash out at anyone who disagrees with them….

  139. Listen, just crawl back under the rock you came from okay, you’re repeating yourself and we’ve got your message loud and clear, your an atheist that loathes Christians or any faith for that matter. Loud and clear as a bell, if not a bit, just a bit manic in your presentation. Really, look in to medication, for your own well being if no one else’s. lol

  140. That’s an interesting context. I wonder if it’s mainly a Boomer generational thing. The Greatest Gen generally doesn’t appear to have the same level of distrust, nor does Gen X, or the Millennial.

  141. “Christianity should be about self-sacrifice, reaching out to others/strangers, empathy and compassion – without arrogant, self assured judgement.”

    Okay. So you spell things out clearly — yet you say you LEFT Christianity?

    If I may ask — and if you’re okay with responding — why didn’t you just stay in Christianity, and model this principle *yourself*, practice and teach it to others?

    (Whenever I hear people talking about “why I left Christianity”, I already know it’s not going to be a simple clean-cut explanation — our lives just don’t work that way. Things always get complicated.)

  142. Hmm. Gotta protect that atheism at all costs, it seems.

    Meanwhile, Crossan’s a nice guy. An interesting guy; a good lecturer. Kinda fell headfirst into the skepticism trap, resulting in a mess, but welcome to today’s secularized religious studies scene. A mess.

    Jim’s reply there (the one that begins “All the searching for the historical Jesus…”) is accurate. Christians need to let their teenagers know where to find correctives. So here’s one regarding Crossan:

    http://www.equip.org/PDF/DJ704.pdf

  143. Maybe. I haven’t seen any social science analysis of that (LOL) not that I’d believe it anyway. But we boomers were the protest generation – “QUESTION AUTHORITY!” – and all that. But being around education for so many years I saw fads come and go…fads that were supported by “data” but failed. Those fads quietly faded away to be replaced with new fads supported with “data”. I am out of it now but I am skeptical of all “statistics prove” claims.

  144. Statistics never proves anything, it’s one of the great fallacies. Statistics allows inferences to be made based on patterns, but no pattern is absolute.

  145. Once again, the Apostles’ Creed of 2017:

    : (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of
    historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

    Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
    and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
    human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??

    I
    believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
    preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
    named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
    girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

    Jesus
    was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
    the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

    He
    was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
    a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
    Jerusalem.

    Said
    Jesus’ story was embellished and “mythicized” by
    many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
    and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
    Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
    grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
    and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
    called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

    Amen

    (references
    used are available upon request)

  146. Comments about Professor Crossan as referenced by any good Baptist teaching at a bible school.
    DENNIS INGOLFSLAND, D. PHIL.

    Contact Dennis Ingolfsland

    DIRECTOR OF LIBRARY SERVICES / PROFESSOR OF BIBLE
    DEPARTMENT: BIBLICAL, THEOLOGICAL & MINISTRY STUDIES

    Education:
    Bachelor of Arts in Bible/Theology and Biblical Languages, Calvary Bible College
    Master of Arts in Library Science, University of Missouri in Columbia
    Master of Arts in Theological Studies, Fuller Theological Seminary
    Doctor of Philosophy in Religion and Society, Oxford Graduate School

    Affiliations:
    Pastor of Valley View Baptist Church in Shakopee, MN
    Evangelical Theological Society
    Association of Christian Librarians

  147. I read lots of commentaries from people who talk about being raised with a fundamentalist upbringing who quite often take a lot of time to become active but never return to the same type of church. One includes values that BW mentioned that are actually practiced.

  148. There are two ways to react to this article. One is to join in the blame game; the other is to look at the evidence that the author presents. I prefer to look at the evidence.

    Note the chart entitled, “Perceptions of Discrimination Against Black People by Religious Affiliation.” Unsurprisingly, Black people are keenly aware of discrimination against blacks. Asians, Native Americans, Mormons, Muslims, Sikhs and others are just as keenly aware of prejudice against them, too.

    It just so happens that White Protestants happen to be at or near the top of the pile at the moment, so they don’t feel so threatened. However, if conditions change, it is likely that they will become more aware of unfair prejudice against them and others.

  149. I did repeat myself and you didnt dispute anything. You just threw out empty insults to make yourself feel better. I hope you feel good now!! Great! Are you going to address the actual points or just call people crazy for calling you out and repeating what the Bible says? This isnt something I’m pulling out of my behind ,sweetie. i mean at some point you have to address your own religion can’t deflect and name call forever.. Hope this helps

  150. arrogance is actually a Christians virtue. It’s built into the religion. Example.. Everyone who isnt Christian should burn… Not only is it arrogant its dangerous and hateful or as Christians call it “loving”

  151. What is wrong with white Christians?

    Ich weiß nicht.

  152. One wonders what the reaction would be like if this guy tried a provocative headline like “What’s wrong with black Christians”?

    That’s a fair question. Would you like to give a response?

  153. Allen, I don’t know if you got the memo, but burning at the stake has been pretty much passe since the 17th century. To the best of my knowledge, the head of my church, Pope Francis, is not proposing to bring it back, and I’m unaware of any other Christian denomination this is trying to re-instate it. Perhaps you could enlighten me in this regard.

    Also, contrary to your unsupported assertion, it is humility, not arrogance, that is considered a Christian virtue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_virtues

  154. It was asked rhetorically because the answer is obvious. People would accuse him of racism, prejudice, divisiveness, etc., and rightfully so.

  155. Well done. It is hard to recognize Jesus in the Christianity practiced by so many so-called Christians. It is not enough to believe – it is necessary to act.

    I think the Catholic bishops have played into the far-right individualist and white man power structure, looking to “win” on disempowering women and LGBTQI people while ignoring what is happening to people of color, to Hispanics, to the poor. They aligned themselves with the far right to promote one issue and simply did not care what that alignment would do to millions of others.

    They need to shut up about “religious liberty”, which is really about their own power to force others to live by the bishop’s will, and deal with what is really happening to people under the “leadership” of those they supported in elections.

    We are where we are in part because of Catholic bishops.

  156. who said anything about burning people at the stake? You believe much worse that people who are unlike yourself who don’t latch on to your religion should burn forever. You support violence of others unlike yourself and stand by and love and worship the thing that will do it which is your God. That makes you a horrible person… Think of it this way how would u feel if i told you that I love you but thought that u should be shot by a gunman because you are a Christian and then i told you i supported ,loved and worshiped the Gunman and totally think its right for him to shoot Christians. Would you think i was a good person? No you wouldn’t..Yet Christians do this everyday and then demand that they be regarded as good people. You aren’t.. Any questions?

  157. “who said anything about burning people at the stake?”
    It was you who brought up burning…

    ” You believe much worse that people who are unlike yourself who don’t latch on to your religion should burn forever.”

    Actually, no, I don’t. Perhaps you should learn more about what someone actually thinks or believes before you ascribe beliefs to them they may or may not have.

    “Yet Christians do this everyday and then demand that they be regarded as good people. You aren’t.. Any questions?”

    Once again, no, I don’t want you to be shot, neither do I want you to burn in hell for all eternity. And no, I don’t demand that you regard me as “good people”, in fact I don’t even think of myself as a “good person” (to do so would be presumptuous).

    “Any questions?”

    No, you are showing profound ignorance about what you are writing about. I don’t mean that as an insult, ignorance is the default condition of the human race, and all of us, even the most highly educated, are ignorant about many things.

  158. “I think the Catholic bishops have played into the far-right individualist and white man power structure, looking to “win” on disempowering women and LGBTQI people while ignoring what is happening to people of color, to Hispanics, to the poor. They aligned themselves with the far right to promote one issue and simply did not care what that alignment would do to millions of others”

    Do you have any evidence for this remarkable assertion?

  159. “Social gentrification keeps a lot of white Catholics from interacting with the poor. A complacent gentrification rules. For many, religion has become about ethics and morality and not transformation in Christ. Sad that Catholics have by and large ignored Pope Francis’s transformative message.”

    You have a point, which is one reason why organizations such as the St. Vincent de Paul Society exist, to help Catholics interact with the poor. However, I don’t think we need a transformation into a failed state such as Venezuela, which some of the Pope’s “transformative message” seems to be pointing towards.

  160. Gehring makes good solid points. Instead of dismissing them you and many many others need to take a step back and ask yourselves, are you part of the problem or part of the solution? Far too many churches preach this nonsense without looking at the root causes of racism, poverty, bigotry, etc. Instead they support those who prey on the disadvantaged. As a result we have an amoral administration which in turn serves to foster the rise of the hate groups.

    You can dismiss/ignore these events, but as the fundies have said all along, the truth denied is still the truth.

  161. Do u believe that atheist burn in hell if they don’t turn Christianity and do you support God in sending them to hell as he said he would? This is not difficult to answer. You are not directly answering the question. You are using the typical ” I dont want anyone to burn in hell ” while at the same time believing if people dont adopt your religion they should. So yes you do. The thing about Christians is they think their double talk and foolishness and hate works outside of their church… If you believe that everyone who is outside of Christianity will burn if they don’t turn to Jesus and you support Jesus/God in every action then yes you do support people who arent Christian burning forever and you support the thing that will do it. no double talking around that fact will change it. It would be like an Muslim going up to you and telling you he loved you and wished the best for you but told u if you don’t start believing in his God you will get shot and he supports your murder or violence against you and the shooter that will do it. What you are doing is exactly similar you are doing the same thing telling people you love them but if they dont convert or accept God they will burn forever and you support that because you support everything God said so they better convert or burn. … So do u have any questions?

  162. White conservative Christians want to bring back the ‘good old days’ of segregation, Jim Crow, so-called traditional marriage, Christian prayer in school and women bare foot and pregnant in the kitchen. They fear minorities becoming the majority in our country and that’s why gravitate towards white supremacist lying conniving greedy Christians like Donald Trump

  163. You attack progressives but ignore the sins of conservative Christians – slavery, Jim Crow, KKK, denying civil rights for minorities, women and LGBTS.

  164. What has white conservative Christians done to help improve life for poor and middle class Americans, minorities, LGBTS, Muslims?

  165. White conservative Christian Trump have always been on the wrong side of history – Civil Rights, same-sex marriages, voting rights, women’s rights, etc.. They claim to be Pro-Life but support cutting food stamps, welfare, affordable health care and wholeheartedly support allowing guns everywhere. In which book, chapter and verse of the New Testament does Jesus Christ advocate guns, war, racism, discrimination, love of money or an eye for an eye?

  166. Here are those miracle stories I promised. These first three stories are technically, in theological terms, called healing stories.

    In one there was a little boy of four years who was born with ambliopia. The father told me the doctor had tried everything he knew to improve the situation. This was about 1974. But the eye was getting worse. So we discerned that God’s Spirit was directing us to pray.

    We prayed. Nothing outward happened at the moment but the next week, when the boy went to the doctor, the doctor pronounced him well. The father called it a miracle of God.

    In the second a couple I knew, Denver and Sue Wofford, were struggling with the wife’s months long suffering from an eye disease under the care of a doctor. On their way back from an appointment in which the doctor had declared he had done everything he could do and that she could continue to take the medicine he had prescribed weeks before, which she had immediately been taking, I encountered them.

    They said her eye was not improving and the doctor didn’t know what more could be done. I asked if they would like to pray for her. They were glad to.

    We prayed. The next week her eye showed significant improvement.
    I asked them what they might attribute that to and their reply was, ‘We guess the medication finally started working.”

    A third eye-healing came when I was conducting a healing service in a United Methodist Church. I preached on healing and after the sermon had several people hold shells of olive oil as the people who desired healing came forward. The person coming forward was to go to one holding a shell of oil, who would pray a prepared prayer over the suppliant while placing oil on the suppliant’s forehead. Several people came forward.

    A couple of days later one of those holding the shells, Billy Jack, said that he had experienced something in the service, and after going to the doctor for a regularly scheduled follow-up for his glaucoma, the doctor told him his eyes were significantly better—not completely healed.

    The most interesting miracle that happened to me was God healing a tv. My wife and I began our marriage in poverty, and when we had our second I was working three jobs to support the family needs. We didn’t have enough to buy a tv, but there was some Christian programming beginning to emerge we desired to see.

    So, with permission of the controlling board we would go in the off hours to the Day Developmental Training Center of the Natchitoches (pronounced: “nakatish”) Association for Retarded Citizens, where I worked during the day, to watch tv. We began praying for a tv.

    One day while visiting some friends Fred, the husband, told us that he felt compelled to give us a color tv he had on hand. He said that he had bought the small 13” tv, and just as it had gone out of warranty, the color went into negative color, that is, it was like looking at a negative of a color photo. He had taken it to the repair shop, but the repairman told him that a certain part had broken and to fix it would cost more than buying a new one. It was very difficult to see what was going on, but the sound was good.

    We watched it for maybe a week, maybe two. Then one night I laid hands on the tv and said, “Be healed in the name of Jesus.” Suddenly the color was completely restored. Naturally, I was very excited.

    We went to church that Wednesday evening. During the time of members sharing, several were talking about the love of God. I stood and said, “The love of God is so great that he will even do a dumb thing like heal a broken tv.” Then I told them about our tv.

    When we got home that evening, we watched a little tv. My wife and kids went to bed. I stayed up watching some more.

    As suddenly as the color had gone from negative it went back to negative at that moment. I slapped it, shook it, but nothing changed. Then I said, “Lord, what happened?”
    The Spirit of God spoke to me and said, “Dumb thing, hunh?” Immediately I said, “O, I’m sorry. Forgive me.”

    As soon as the words left my mouth, the tv went back to perfect color. We watched it for a couple more years after that, then I traded it in on a new Sanyo multi-band radio. The salesman checked out the tv for a couple of hours to make sure it was sound. After the trade it sat in the store on display without any incident until it was sold.

  167. These stories are nice but miraculous? Lack of scientific evidence, peer review, testing and biological cures such as reduced blood pressure improving eye sight, vitiate all of the eye “miracles”. And the tv story? Lack of sleep etc. can lead to hallucinations. Seen that first hand in the US Army during sleep deprivation exercises.

    Miracles do not happen as miracles would violate your god’s gift of natural law. And If your all-merciful god were involved in our daily lives, there would be no poverty and cures of diseases would not be needed as no one would ever get sick. i.e. if god were real, there would be no children born blind or without limbs. Which brings up the observation, that no missing limb has ever been replaced via a “miracle”.

    Even the RCC is very skeptical about the “miracles”/hallucinations at Lourdes and Fatima i.e. no requirement that RCs even need to believe in them.

    And you don’t find it odd that the virgin only appears to very impressionable and uneducated ??

    The Lourde’s “Miracles”

    “Faith or pharmacy?

    http://student.bmj.com/issues/02/02/life/33.php

    It is interesting to compare the number of cures recognised before and after the establishment of the medical bureau in 1947. The ratio of cures to sick pilgrims before 1914 was 1:100. From 1914 to 1928 itwas 1:700, but from 1928 to 1947 it was 1:1600. In all, 5000 cures were claimed before 1947. From 1947 to 1990, only 1000 cures were claimed and only 56 were recognised in that time, averaging 1.3 cures a year, against 57 a year before
    1914.

    It can be inferred from this that medicine has transformed society and the faithful sick no longer came to Lourdes for a cure but rely on medicine. Since the 1960s we have seen a consistent decline in the number of possible cures claimed. The doctors working in the medical bureau have presented philosophical problems in serving both science and the church.

    As we make progress in medical knowledge, the area of the medically
    inexplicable grows smaller and deciding that treatments did not play a part in
    a cure is more difficult. Medical progress has, in a way, threatened the church
    for which miraculous healings were supreme in the worldly manifestation of
    faith. “

  168. “Do u believe that atheist burn in hell if they don’t turn Christianity” Not necessarily. Your answers betray a lot of misconceptions about Christianity, and you don’t seem be able to distinguish between Catholicism, Evangelicalism, and Fundamentalism. You are obviously unaware of the Catholic teaching of Baptism of Desire, which gives us reason to hope for the salvation of non-Christians, and even of atheists:https://ronconte.wordpress.com/2015/02/01/roman-catholic-teaching-on-implicit-baptism-of-desire/ I believe there are some fundamentalists who believe that anyone who isn’t explicitly Christian will be damned. That is not my belief.

    “do you support God in sending them to hell as he said he would?”
    That brings up some interesting questions. There are two main possibilities, either God exists, or He doesn’t. Of course there are many variations on this, Hindus believe in many gods (although I think the more sophisticated ones would say that the various Hindu gods are all just different manifestations of one God, but I’m not an expert in Hindu theology) and I believe Buddhists don’t actually believe in any god at all (ironically, since Buddhism came out of Hinduism). But to the main point: if God doesn’t exist, then none of this really matters. There is no God for me to support or not. If God does exist, then by definition (at least if He exists as Christians, or for that matter, Jews or Muslims understand Him) He is creator of the universe, and all powerful. My support or lack of it would be irrelevant, although I think it would be pretty foolish to oppose an all powerful being Who created you out of love.

    “What you are doing is exactly similar you are doing the same thing telling people you love them but if they dont convert or accept God they will burn forever and you support that because you support everything God said so they better convert or burn.”

    This is kind of out there. Whatever people actually believe, if they aren’t using violence to try to convert you to their beliefs they are fundamentally different than those who do. And no, as I pointed out above, a Catholic view would be not to wish for anyone’s damnation, whatever they believe.

    So, I will end it as you seem to like ending your posts: Do you have any questions?

  169. First, I appreciate your objective and respectful responses to my posts. I particularly appreciate your comments about the “miracle” stories–especially, the one about the tv. I’m gratified you didn’t call me an out-and-out schizophrenic–even though you may have been thinking that. 🙂 I’m not being sarcastic here in the least. I really do feel respected by your responses. Sarcasm may come later. If you respond to this, which would be great, we may as well write a book together.

    In any of these events I have no problem with naturalistic explanations. In fact, I’m a little puzzled at your adoption of the illogical statement that for God to intervene in natural processes violates the very laws God created for the operation of the universe. I know that many theologians have also made that claim, and some, such as Karl Barth, who promoted the notion of “demythologization,” have advocated foregoing the belief in the miracles of the Bible and view them as mythical stories that are trying to tell us truths about God. I know that a person can be a believer in Jesus Christ and not accept the miracles at face value. I’ll not argue against that. But the claim that God couldn’t intervene without violating laws of the universe is a leap of faith in the opposite direction.

    The Wright brothers accomplished something that humans had dreamed of doing for as long as we could watch birds. It was considered impossible and foolish. But they eventually “defied gravity.” Actually, though, as you probably know, gravity plays a part in flight. If gravity let go of the airplane the passengers would be in a heap of trouble.

    And what about a mechanic? Can’t a mechanic reach into an engine and make changes for the better, even better than the original design, without disrupting the whole system, or completely rebuilding it? It is the use of the laws of physics that makes these things possible. Whose to say that God uses any means outside of the laws of the universe when performing a miracle. What makes a miracle is not so much the event, except for those who have no idea what might have happened–like me with the tv. Since I have no explanation, any viable explanation is plausible, but none satisfactory, unless, like you say, through examination, peer review, and such, it is demonstrated what happened–whether natural or “supernatural.”

    The term “miracle” is not specified in scripture. It is translated from common words that mean “sign,” “wonder,” “works” and sometimes “power” [which can also be translated: ability]. What the scriptures are saying, in my understanding, is that God does things to give a sign of divine presence and grace for an encouragement to trust in times that run contrary to our needs and expectations. Miracles have never made people faithful.

    Some have explained the manna in the wilderness as the product of a particular bug whose saliva turns into a doughy ball. The first I read of such explanations was in my theological studies. See http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Manna. Regardless of natural or supernatural origin, it was the timing and provision to the people in the story that pointed them toward God’s continued presence and guidance.

    Still many didn’t remain faithful and rebelled against God while consuming manna on a daily basis. Perhaps, a natural occurrence would explain the failure of the faith of many. At any rate, whether there is a natural or spiritual explanation, or both, what makes a “miracle” to the recipient is the timing and provision.

    A key part of the timing is prayer. In all of the instances there was something lacking and not getting any better, but immediately after prayer something changed. Coincidence?

    Do scientists believe in coincidence? Of course, there is probablity. In fact, the scripture (Ecclesiastes 9:11) declares that probability is also a part of human life. But I haven’t told you of the many other occurrences of “probability” that come after or during prayer. Yes. I realize confirmation bias could fix one’s mind on seeing only the “answers” while causing one to disregard the “non-answers.” But in faith, or trust (as I prefer to call it) delayed or “unanswered prayer” are one means of self-reflection and transformative trust that develops character within the believer.

    Just one story of delayed answer to prayer. One day I asked God for a laptop computer. Ten years later–yes, I actually counted the years–in a town 200 hundred miles from the one (Madisonville, LA) where I prayed, I was recommended by someone I had known only for a few months to be a part of a community leadership training group that had six weekend sessions throughout the year. Upon acceptance and beginning the training, first thing they did was give me a brand new Dell laptop computer, in the box, which was mine so long as I completed the training, which was very good training. Interestingly, my laptop got stolen out of my office at the church I was pastoring five years later in a town about 175 miles from Colfax.

    Miracle is really more in the eye of the receiver. For instance, in Colfax, LA I was called to the Social Services office to see if I could deal with a man who had come to the office in desperation with his wife and kids and was threatening to kill them and himself if he couldn’t get some help.

    Social services couldn’t legally help him. After talking and praying with him and his family for about an hour, he calmed and became more open to what little I could do. I asked him what else I could do to help him. He said he needed enough gas to get back to his home (about 25 miles away). I said, “I can fill up your tank.” He looked up and cried, “It’s a miracle.” (He was actually scheduled to enter the local mental hospital the next day for an emotional breakdown, which he did. I checked.)

    Timing, provision, with concomitant prayer=miracle. Prayer can be a simple cry of help, “God! Help me!” Prayer doesn’t have to be initiated by the recipient of the miracle, like the young avowed atheist (who grew up under an atheist father) I talked with on NSU campus at Natchitoches, LA who was the next day diagnosed with strep throat by the campus doctor. I prayed for him, left his room. The next day he showed up at our campus meeting, healed, not needing the medicine of which he had taken only one pill, and began to inquire about Jesus. Timing, provision, and prayer.

    Now your assertion that “medical progress has, in a way, threatened the church for which miraculous healings were supreme in the worldly manifestation of faith ” is also illogical considering how many hospitals the RCC and Protestants have built throughout history worldwide, and having participated in the scientific and medical research that have brought vast improvements in the medical field.

    The church, as a whole, has never had a problem with various means of health recovery. In fact, Sirach 38:1-9 says, Honour a physician with the honour due unto him for the uses which ye may have of him: for the Lord hath created him.For of the most High cometh healing, and he shall receive honour of the king. The skill of the physician shall lift up his head: and in the sight of great men he shall be in admiration. The Lord hath created medicines out of the earth; and he that is wise will not abhor them. Was not the water made sweet with wood, that the virtue thereof might be known? And he hath given men skill, that he might be honoured in his marvellous works. With such doth he heal [men,] and taketh away their pains. Of such doth the apothecary make a confection; and of his works there is no end; and from him is peace over all the earth, My son, in thy sickness be not negligent: but pray unto the Lord, and he will make thee whole.

    Your suggestion about the tv story is humorous, but also illogical.I would have expected at least, if you hadn’t written me off as delusional (of course, you kind of did :)), that you might suggest some sort of physical coincidence. But to be hallucinating due to lack of sleep, perhaps you were just being kind about the source of the hallucination after all, is illogical.

    A hallucination in that situation would have had to have been either an extended dementia over several weeks, or even years. If Fred thought the tv was broken when it wasn’t then his power of suggestion would have had to caused me to hallucinate the same thing over several days. If it was broken then the repair would have had to have been a hallucination for several years and suggested wordlessly to Dwight, who inspected it and saw that it was okay, as well as to the one who bought it and took it home. So, hallucination is an extremely remote possibility bordering on impossibility. If you’d said I was lying, which I wasn’t, that would have been much more logical.

  170. Just a few comments before moving on. Manna from heaven is another Exodus myth of many. And hallucinations can develop in days with no sleep or food as shown by many sleep deprivation studies. And prayers that go against the laws of nature are futile.

  171. The author appears to be an acolyte of Pope Francis which is his first problem. Francis came from a failed society and is unduly influenced by Marxism, communism, liberation theology, etc. As such, he does not understand successful nation-states or cultures and cannot fathom successful economic structures. Therefore, he (Francis) is left with shaming the relative rich and successful as his main line of attack and the author is following in those footsteps. What is wrong with rich white Christians is a PC line of attack which is in itself judgmental and racist. The answer is nothing more than black or Hispanic or other third world Christians. Each Christian bears his own responsibility to God and the gospel and the idea of personal responsibility, alien to this author, is also endemic to the Bible. A combination of charity and responsibility go hand in hand.

    Is the author saying that white Christians have a special responsibility to help the poor? Why? Does he subscribe to Rudyard Kipling and the white man’s burden? All Christians have a responsibility to work out their own salvation in every forum.

    The author appears also to hate Trump. Enough of this drivel. Christians of all stripes had no choice but to vote for Trump as the alternative to continued assault on the Church by an Obama clone. Do we want more gay rights, transgender, partial birth abortion, etc. issues and further impingement upon all forms of religious freedom from an increasingly hateful, atheistic and fascist left? Thank God that voting Christians were more insightful and faithful than this author appreciates.

  172. Interesting, in view of the fact that the majority of US poor are white. I think people of color don’t know that they exist, and white people pretend they don’t. Beyond that, where would we be without our stereotypes? We would end up having to examine the more complicated issues that are driving today’s violence.

  173. White conservative Christians have only disparaged these groups further. They may donate some time and money to the causes or volunteer, and say look, we help them. But it is only superficial. These people are still looked down upon and a problem in american society.

  174. White conservative Christians want to have it both ways. They don’t the government helping the least of God’s people while demanding the government allows them to treat LGBTS, Muslims, women and minorities like second class citizens because doing otherwise infringes on their religious beliefs.

  175. Question – Do you think Muslims and LGBTS are afforded the same rights and privileges as white evangelical Christians?

  176. Great commentary! Unfortunately some Christians probably wont take any of this to heart, will disavow most of it, even though statistically you are right on the money. There are also some false prophets among black Christians who would be better known as PROFITEERS. But no need to argue with these fakers of faith, just remind them of this passage from the bible, “15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
    Matthew 7:15-20”, and then wish them a nice day.

  177. They are only looked down on by progressives. (libtarded nut-jobs). That’s ok. Intelligent people look down on progressives.

  178. The Bible is not the law of the land. The United Constitution has the final word in our country. So-called Bible believing white Christians are in direct conflict with the United States Constitution and that’s were they are wrong.

  179. Looking at the comments, it’s clear that there will be no self reflection by those who would think to be offended. Adversity seems to be the only thing that will wake this powerful group into repentance. This is why I don’t waste my time anymore attempting to speak to them. They have a core internally held belief that their success is self-evident proof of the Lord’s blessing. This is why I spend my energy these days praying to God to deliver his corrective judgment. These Christians need to be removed from their comfort and privilege. I’m not concerned about my tone. Tone doesn’t matter to this stiff kneck group.

  180. The author of this article writes: “The dark-skinned Jesus who preached justice to those in the shadow of an empire would likely not recognize many of his nominal followers today.” — Dark skinned? Really? Let’s see what the scripture, and historical records say about the physical appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Ancient Israelites of the bible. KING DAVID is described as “RUDDY” in 1 Samuel 16:12, and 1 Samuel 17:42. The Lord Jesus Christ is a descendant of King David. Ruddy: adjective. (of a person’s face) having a healthy red colour: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/ruddy

    The ISRAELITES are described as “WHITE” and “RUDDY” in Song of Solomon 5:10 “My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand.” In Revelation 1:14, JESUS CHRIST is described as having a HEAD that is “WHITE AS SNOW” (Head includes face), in Lamentations 4:7, Nazarites are described as being “purer than snow, WHITER THAN MILK,” (Nazarites = ISRAELITES, Numbers 6:2)

    The “Letter of Lentulus,” is an alleged eyewitness account of Jesus Christ, it describes Jesus Christ’s face as being a comely red and his eyes gray, clear and quick.” https://commons.orthodoxwiki.org/images/c/cf/Anon-Publius_Lentulus.jpg

    The description of Jesus Christ given in the “Letter of Lentulus,” bears more similarities to a painting of Jesus Christ by Dylann Roof (linked below) published in a New York Daily News article by Shaun King, than it does to recent politicized attempts to portray Jesus Christ as being a brown skinned anarchist, which is how Jesus Christ is described in the Patheos article entitled “Jesus didn’t get crucified for writing a strongly worded letter to the Sanhedrin.” http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2939036.1483806832!/img/httpImage/image.jpg

    Strong’s Exhaustive Bible Concordance definition of ADAM is to: “SHOW BLOOD (in the FACE), i.e. FLUSH or TURN ROSY — be (dyed, made) red (RUDDY).” See http://www.kingjamesbibledictionary.com/StrongsNo/H119/dyed%20red

    “Showing blood in the face, Ruddy, Flushing, turning Rosy,” — A Negro does not “turn rosy,” these are physical attributes used to describe White people, hence Adam’s description matches that of a white male, and Eve is a white female, as God made Eve from Adam’s rib, [Genesis 2:22]. Adam and Eve’s descendants are therefore white as well, including the Lord Jesus Christ, who ultimately, is a descendant of Adam and Eve via his mother the blessed Virgin Mary, and shares Adam’s “rosy” appearance.

  181. Oh believe me, they hate poor whites too. It is getting to the point if you aren’t “well to do”, You aren’t welcome to their churches. R.D. Vance, (Author of Hillbilly Effigy) mentions that the Church has abandoned the White working class in favor of wealthier neighborhoods.

  182. The Counterfeit Church with leaders like Franklin Graham and Jerry Falwell, Roy Moore has kicked Jesus outside the church. They don’t want Him ( JESUS) He’s not welcome, they want
    a Earthly KING and have decided to make America, the FALLEN World their home. if these fake Christians HATE YOU, REJOICED!!! IN THE LORD JESUS! You have been Chosen as one of GOD’s beloved children and your place is the KINGDOM of Heaven…

    JESUS will come for you, these Fake Christians serve Satan and have done everything in their power to push those that need JESUS away from the church…. That’s why many are leaving the church the REAL Church are we, ( Brothers and Sisters) in Christ…

  183. Your problem is when it comes to Trump you don’t read your Bible, only the The Antichrist will make a 7-year covenant of “peace” with Israel (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 9:27) and breaks the covenant within 3 years, if TRUMP gets his peace treaty in the Middle east. The Bible makes it,clear The Antichrist is a master con artist. Antichrist will be Satan’s front man, his con man protege. He comes as a WOLF in sheep clothing and pretends to love the Christians and Jews,they support him only to be later betrayed..

    The Jews see TRUMP as the Messiah,they LOVE HIM, they TRUST him they can’t see Trump will later Betray them as it is written Daniel 9:27 when he built the 3rd Temple that will be his home, the TEMPLE will be GREAT and something the World has never seen before..When the Historic event of the abomination of desolation”happens and Jesus said you will see it with your eyes,this,event is when the ( TRUMP) Antichrist walks in the Temple and announces he is GOD..Only those who’s names are NOT FOUND in the Lamb’s Book of life will support the Antichrist as it is Written. Revelation 13:8

  184. When it comes to voting, GOD never tells his Children to vote for the Lesser of Two Evils no Bible scripture supports that.. GOD tells us to STAY AWAY from all forms of evil at all cost. Have nothing to do WITH EVIL Trump is now Trump is endorsing a pedophile ( Roy Moore) and the other man is for abortion.The problem with Americans maybe because the MEDIA has brainwashed them is they make EVERYTHING a liberal/conservatives issue. This left/right ideology is to cause division in this world and distract us from what the bible says. I once considered myself a conservative, but realized that being a conservative doesn’t make someone righteous or a Christian. Some conservatives don’t even believe in GOD…

    . Being conservative doesn’t make one a Christian. It’s believing Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins, repenting and accepting Christ as Lord and Savior. Americans are so focus on the left/right ideology that this is bigger then that, the battle going on is between GOOD vs Evil, GOD,vs,Satan…

    Do we want more Gay rights no, but we do want to draw peoples to Jesus Christ, when somebody meets you they should want to know to meet Jesus.. (His Character) so when they see you they see his character and will want to know more about this Savior of yours, it is with your HELP in the Holy Spirit that you can saved a person’s soul and bring them to Jesus… Most of the WORLD is under a Great Deception by Satan. They don’t know Jesus…

  185. Why would you tear down your brothers and sisters in Christ? Those are the ones that will HELP you and not hurt you! JESUS TELLS US to motivate not tear down each other, as we are all ONE in Christ. you clearly haven’t read your Bible, you should repent of your nasty sins and apologize to GOD…if you need HELP START with the BOOK OF JOHN Be sure to read all of it…

    Be Sure to study 1 John 4:20 Who ever says they love God but hates their brother, is a liar… Church attendance is DOWN so stop lying and just because a person attends Church does not make them Christian, someone could use your ugly comments and use them against your own Brother and Sisters in Christ but you don’t care about that as you clearly HATE Them… You’re from the DEVIL SATAN The Accuser of the Brethren Revelation 12:10.

    1 John 3:15-16
    Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters.

  186. Actually they get special privileges in our society. It’s getting to the point if you criticize them it can get you fined or arrested.

  187. Yeh we just need to exterminate all of them do we Alan. Lets get rid of that arrogance shall we?

  188. Which special privileges do they receive? Freedom of speech does not protect you from the consequences of your actions.

  189. It will be illegal to criticize them eventually like in Canada.

  190. You answered by question with a deflection. Once again I repeat myself – Which special privileges do they receive.?

    Trump, Hannity, Alex Jones, Coulter and other white supremacist criticize Muslims 24/7 and are never fined or arrested for doing so. So you’re telling nothing but a big fat LIE!

  191. There is a gay supervisor at work who harasses straight guys and they won’t fire him. That’s where all this is heading. You don’t want rights, you want special privileges.

  192. This is one poorly written, bias article. First, you can’t be a democrat and be a christain. Jesus teaches clearly that we need to learn and teach our selves. What you also lack is, it’s not the job of the government to make anyone help others. It’s with in our selves that we are suppose to help them but only help those to get off there feet and not keep taking care of them.

  193. I don’t believe everything I see. If a man goes around with the Bibble I need to see true results not just fights to prove than one man is better or equal than another man when such rights are already granted in democracy. Most black people are pulling toward Europe to gain power, support and donations. That is wrong. Europe is the symbol for peace. That is a good thing however it is also a symbol for corruption. The central bank is into the hands of those who allow legalized prostitution and brothels. Did black people complain about it? Turkey is a muslim country. How did it get to approve brothels? If you make a deal with the devil to win a moral battle you cannot complain if you are not treated with the due respect. Eight nations have different laws than all other 20 nations in Europe, yet these few are in control of the banking system and they make new laws and regulations. It can turn out to be a huge scandal. Where will the black people stand?

  194. No actually the bible I law of the world. The constitution was written by Christians and this country was founded under God. The constitution is not as important or influential as God’s Word.

  195. Which part of the United States Constitution says the country was founded under God or that thr Bible is more important than the laws of man and woman?

  196. The constitution? This country was found before the constitution. The laws and writings in the constitution used scripture as it’s basis. You can’t use something that was created by Christians and based on the word of God to go against him. Why do you think we say “one nation, under God”?

  197. The country before the constitution was a colony of England.

  198. Fool the people are of the United States were mostly English. Before the constitution it was not a British colony, they already secede from it. The representatives from the 12 state who signed their names were already were already separated from the Brits. And during its writing it was made under God and currently it is too. The laws were made under it. It’s the only reason we have religious liberty, because we accept different walks or life and have such freedom. You have to be mental ill to say the Constitution has nothing to do with God.

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